Why didn't Gus Johnson dominate the 60s?

[Marchesk]

6'6 230 high flying dunker. Credited with 3 broken backboards. Evidence of dunking ability (as has been posted in other threads):

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-WPxPfxWt8vQ/UQyTpLxGKUI/AAAAAAAAEFo/AgnZwjF2kL4/s800/GusJohnsonDunk.gif

According to some (many?), if you put a skilled, athletic modern NBA player back in the 60s, they would be putting up Wilt/Oscar numbers.

Gus's best seasons had his high at 20.7 ppg one season, and 13.6 rebounds another season. His best shooting season was 46.7%. Good numbers but not dominant. He was a five time all-star and HOFer, so he's not a flash in the pan either.

[oarabbus]

Weak shoulders (dislocated by Wilt block) prevented him from achieving true greatness.

[Marchesk]

Weak shoulders (dislocated by Wilt block) prevented him from achieving true greatness.

:lol

[iamgine]

6'6 230 high flying dunker. Credited with 3 broken backboards. Evidence of dunking ability (as has been posted in other threads):

According to some (many?), if you put a skilled, athletic modern NBA player back in the 60s, they would be putting up Wilt/Oscar numbers.

Gus's best seasons had his high at 20.7 ppg one season, and 13.6 rebounds another season. His best shooting season was 46.7%. Good numbers but not dominant. He was a five time all-star and HOFer, so he's not a flash in the pan either.
Maybe he wasn't that athletic/skilled?

That dunk looked like what Jared Dudley could do. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KIaGLprVhI

[Marchesk]

Maybe he wasn't that athletic/skilled?

That dunk looked like what Jared Dudley could do. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KIaGLprVhI

But if you compare it to the infamous Cousy ankle breaker and then use that as evidence for how weak the era was, one has to wonder why a player with Gus's leaping ability (for that era) didn't just destroy white dudes, and the rest of the guys who could only dribble with their right hand.

[iamgine]

But if you compare it to the infamous Cousy ankle breaker and then use that as evidence for how weak the era was, one has to wonder why a player with Gus's leaping ability (for that era) didn't just destroy white dudes, and the rest of the guys who could only dribble with their right hand.
Again, maybe he wasn't that athletic/skilled?

[Marchesk]

Again, maybe he wasn't that athletic/skilled?

So is the moral of the story that one gif means jack shit for judging an era?

[iamgine]

So is the moral of the story that one gif means jack shit for judging an era?
Well depends on the gif and context.

[Marchesk]

Well depends on the gif and context.

Sure, but if what you knew of the 60s was some stats and titles, and then saw the Cousy gif, you might think that the guys in your rec league or high school would do better back then (which some have said although hard to know if trolling or serious).

Before I started lurking on ISH, I hadn't seen much about the 60s. Then I saw stuff like the Gus Johnson dunk, Russell going coast to coast and jumping over a player from near the foul line, or Wilt blocking a shot way the heck up in a college game. So it changed my perspective. Maybe some of these guys were just as athletic. Maybe Wilt would be a freak of nature in any era, and he didn't just dominate by virtue of being physically bigger than everyone else.

I've seen video that makes the 60s look weak, and video that makes the players look modern. Some have judged Wilt's moves based on highlights from a series where he was bothered by injuries and looks awkward and stiff. But then there are highlights were he's moving very well.

[HylianNightmare]

Cavsftw or any older posters gonna chime in? Op has me intrigued

[CavaliersFTW]

Again, maybe he wasn't that athletic/skilled?
You're wrong, there's no "maybe" about it. He was the first player to take off at the free throw line to dunk in the open court in a game. 3 broken backboards, was the first player who would bring the ball down to waist level in mid air then still dunk it. His standing vertical reach, is a known 11 feet 6 inches (google gus johnson and 'the nail' marking how high he could touch). Athletically Gus Johnson was probably a hybrid between Dominique Wilkins and Charles Barkley in terms of raw physical abilities. Wasn't quite as acrobatic as 'Nique, wasn't quite as powerful as Barkley... was something in between. He was the strongest forward in his era. I have a small amount of footage of him, and he's incredibly athletic in the clips of him when he's younger.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-7clVrnH7f04/URneqWHhQXI/AAAAAAAAEWM/9przejytkDY/s800/Gus%2520Block2.gif

BTW I've been on again off again working on a revision of the Gus Johnson mix with a small handful of new clips. Perhaps I'll finish it up soon.

And Gus Johnson is widely considered one of the best players of his era by his peers, he's just forgotten these days. He was the best defensive forward of his era, and the strongest forward of his era, as well as the most athletic forward of his era. He was also one of the most injury prone, probably due to the way he played. He wasn't the most productive though as stated in the OP. But he was a great player who understood how to play the game at a very high level, he wasn't just athletic he could shoot, play in the post, etc. His passing skills look amazing.

[LAZERUSS]

Just too many great athletes back then.

He would be a dominant player in today's NBA though. Maybe top-5.

[Rose'sACL]

it is pretty funny that we have to judge players from 60s from a few GIFs. if we are lucky we get a 5-10 mins highlight video.
This is why i hate discussing top 10 player rankings for all time. it should be after and before enough video footage was available. you can only judge players based on stats, pace of the league and at least 70-80 full game footage from their peak years.

[Rose'sACL]

Just too many great athletes back then.

He would be a dominant player in today's NBA though. Maybe top-5.
how old are you?

[CavaliersFTW]

it is pretty funny that we have to judge players from 60s from a few GIFs. if we are lucky we get a 5-10 mins highlight video.
This is why i hate discussing top 10 player rankings for all time. it should be after and before enough video footage was available. you can only judge players based on stats, pace of the league and at least 70-80 full game footage from their peak years.
For what it's worth I do have about 10 minutes of Gus Johnson footage :lol like I said I will try to get it finished soon

[AirFederer]

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-7clVrnH7f04/URneqWHhQXI/AAAAAAAAEWM/9przejytkDY/s800/Gus%2520Block2.gif



Not denying he`s athletic, but it seems you the gif "freezes" in slo mo when he gits the glass.

Anyway, way more important than vertical would be his skill level and BB IQ.

[r0drig0lac]

Just too many great athletes back then.

He would be a dominant player in today's NBA though. Maybe top-5.
this

[CavaliersFTW]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qujrofsCK5Y

just a preview of some of the up coming Gus mix... I've got so many projects "in progress" I have no clue which ones will be finished first so apologies to the subscribers of my channel looking for specific ones :lol

[IGOTGAME]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qujrofsCK5Y

just a preview of some of the up coming Gus mix... I've got so many projects "in progress" I have no clue which ones will be finished first so apologies to the subscribers of my channel looking for specific ones :lol

he has some nasty rebounds and blocks. can't wait for the full mix:rockon:

[CavaliersFTW]

In the era before PED's, and Gus never lifted weights according to his brother Perry Johnson (who gave the HOF speech).

And this is what Gus's physique looked like:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-LYcWMvdAT8w/U-hBRRKd7iI/AAAAAAAAFR0/maxYdpn3060/s800/bal-walt-bellamy-hall-of-famer-and-exbaltimore-001.jpg

He's shorter, but built much bigger even than his teams starting center, Walt Bellamy. Today with weight training and PED's it's sometimes harder to tell who the real genetic lottery winners are but given his mobility and power on film and just looking at how he's proportioned those look like true freak genetics right there. Though he was injury prone so I guess he wasn't perfect.

[Kvnzhangyay]

how old are you?

Not old enough to have watched the 60's

[CavaliersFTW]

Not old enough to have watched the 60's
If I'm not mistaken Laz has actually stated he did watch the tail end of the 60's I believe and/or the early 70's

[Soundwave]

I think you kind of betray your whole point by adding that he was a 5 time All-Star and HOFer. :oldlol:

At 6 foot 6 he was a double double player a statline of like than 17-20 ppg and 13 rpg for eight straight years.

You might have a point if he was a below average player in that era, but from the looks of it, he was a very good, perrenial All-Star type of player.

It looks to me like he wasn't that great of shooter (relatively low/average FT%), that probably kept him away from being a more consistent 20+ ppg player.

[oarabbus]

Again, maybe he wasn't that athletic/skilled?

:rolleyes: he is clearly athletic.

As to how skilled? I can't say. As Soundwave said it sounds like he was fairly dominant if he was a 5x allstar and HOFer

[L.Kizzle]

I think you kind of betray your whole point by adding that he was a 5 time All-Star and HOFer. :oldlol:

At 6 foot 6 he was a double double player a statline of like than 17-20 ppg and 13 rpg for eight straight years.

You might have a point if he was a below average player in that era, but from the looks of it, he was a very good, perrenial All-Star type of player.

It looks to me like he wasn't that great of shooter (relatively low/average FT%), that probably kept him away from being a more consistent 20+ ppg player.
His FG% was avg to slightly above avg for his time. He could guard anyone from Wilt to Jerry West. The only forwards better were Baylor (which is probably his closest contemporary) Hondo Rick Barry Pettit Cunningham and Jerry Lucas. He was in Heinsohn DwBusschere conversation.

[theaussieguy]

the whole premise of this thread implies athleticism is the most important thing in basketball, if that were the case James White and Gerald Green would be GOAT's, and noone would ever heard of Steve Nash.

[Marchesk]

the whole premise of this thread implies athleticism is the most important thing in basketball, if that were the case James White and Gerald Green would be GOAT's, and noone would ever heard of Steve Nash.

The whole premise of this thread is to rebut the claim that Lebron/Kobe/Howard would put up Wilt-like numbers in the 60s simply because of their superior athleticism and physiques.

Gus Johnson was that.

[Mass Debator]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qujrofsCK5Y

just a preview of some of the up coming Gus mix... I've got so many projects "in progress" I have no clue which ones will be finished first so apologies to the subscribers of my channel looking for specific ones :lol
Thanks!

[Kvnzhangyay]

The whole premise of this thread is to rebut the claim that Lebron/Kobe/Howard would put up Wilt-like numbers in the 60s simply because of their superior athleticism and physiques.

Gus Johnson was that.

Lebron and Kobe would indeed probably put up Wilt-like numbers due to the fact that they are also some of the most skillful players ever to play the game, but yeah Howard is pretty much all athleticism

[CavaliersFTW]

Lebron and Kobe would indeed probably put up Wilt-like numbers due to the fact that they are also some of the most skillful players ever to play the game, but yeah Howard is pretty much all athleticism
to be honest they would put up jerry west like and/or oscar robertson numbers, not wilt like. Nobody would or could put up wilt like numbers except for Wilt. I firmly believe that, as nobody who has ever played could rebound AND score like wilt.

[stanlove1111]

to be honest they would put up jerry west like and/or oscar robertson numbers, not wilt like. Nobody would or could put up wilt like numbers except for Wilt. I firmly believe that, as nobody who has ever played could rebound AND score like wilt.

You still don't get basketball and its starting to look like you never will.

There is no sense talking about Wilt's scoring totals without bringing up the fact that it was his goal to get those totals. It was his goal to score 50 a game so its goofy to compare it to other players who never made that goal. You will never understand that this is not baseball where everyone has basically the same amount of at bats with the same goal. You can compare stats in baseball.

If you took the Lebron of today and dropped him into 1962 and his goal was to score 50 a game ( it wouldn't be, too much of a team guy ) then he would score 50 a game without doubt. Just like a primed Jabbar would or a Durant or Kobe among others..


Gus Johnson while athletic for his time did not have the moves at all like players today. he looks like an amateur compared to todays players when he drives to the basket..Do you have any clips of his head at the rim? Haven't see any yet..I watched Gus at the time and while good for the time would be nothing today with the same skills he had..My Son had a high school teammate last year who did everything Gus did I those clips.

[pudman13]

Simple answer: because the people who played in the 60s were a lot better than most modern fans believe.

[Soundwave]

to be honest they would put up jerry west like and/or oscar robertson numbers, not wilt like. Nobody would or could put up wilt like numbers except for Wilt. I firmly believe that, as nobody who has ever played could rebound AND score like wilt.

If they were hell bent on putting up stats, I think you would be surprised what a prime David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaq, or even Charles Barkley would do in the 60s IMO.

[iznogood]

In the era before PED's, and Gus never lifted weights according to his brother Perry Johnson (who gave the HOF speech).

And this is what Gus's physique looked like:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-LYcWMvdAT8w/U-hBRRKd7iI/AAAAAAAAFR0/maxYdpn3060/s800/bal-walt-bellamy-hall-of-famer-and-exbaltimore-001.jpg

He's shorter, but built much bigger even than his teams starting center, Walt Bellamy. Today with weight training and PED's it's sometimes harder to tell who the real genetic lottery winners are but given his mobility and power on film and just looking at how he's proportioned those look like true freak genetics right there. Though he was injury prone so I guess he wasn't perfect.

What you're saying is not entirely true. Dianabol was available and widely used in he 60s. Also even if you don't lift weights there are ways to get stronger, bigger and more athletic, especially if you use steroids.

[HomieWeMajor]

Racism
The league didn't let him 'dominate' like Wilt was because he didn't want to be in the house where Wilt was

[jstern]

Maybe he wasn't that athletic/skilled?

That dunk looked like what Jared Dudley could do. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KIaGLprVhI

That dunk is not a good example. Looked rather weak, the Gus one is much better.

Also, many here would say that Jared Dudley would put up Wilt numbers in the 60s.

[oarabbus]

to be honest they would put up jerry west like and/or oscar robertson numbers, not wilt like. Nobody would or could put up wilt like numbers except for Wilt. I firmly believe that, as nobody who has ever played could rebound AND score like wilt.


Not disputing that Wilt's records are legendary.

But if you built a team around Durant/LeBron/Carmelo where they had to drop 40-50 a game... doesn't seem like it'd be out of the question.

[oarabbus]

That dunk is not a good example. Looked rather weak, the Gus one is much better.

Also, many here would say that Jared Dudley would put up Wilt numbers in the 60s.



Those are just trolls. But to say that Kobe/LeBron/Durant/Carmelo WOULDN'T put up insane numbers back then is just as absurd.

[CavaliersFTW]

Those are just trolls. But to say that Kobe/LeBron/Durant/Carmelo WOULDN'T put up insane numbers back then is just as absurd.
From what I observe from how the game is played now vs then total scoring ppg would be the same as they'd be sharing the ball with other stars (teams were more stacked back then), their shots taken would go up by a few and field goal percentage down a few percentage points as a result of the crowded lanes, hand checking, lack of 3 point shots/spacing, offensive charges, 1.5 steps instead of 2 etc etc etc... Mid range shots would happen more than inside penetration and easy dunks or layups. Assists - same, again higher usage but less assists tallied so likely exactly the same. Rebounding total would likely go up a few rebounds, TRB% would likely go down a few percentage points.

So their numbers would not be "insane"... they'd be about the same. Their impact would be relatively speaking, the same in volumes save for rebounding. They aren't in a class beyond Oscar or West or Baylor, they're about on par with them. And again, nobody is touching Wilt's numbers, nobody would even get close. And Carmelo Anthony?... he's more akin to a Dave Bing, Chet Walker or Billy Cunningham level talent. If Carmelo played in the 60's nobody would think he's better than Baylor, West or Robertson. He'd be one of the forgotten players today that nobody ever talks about anymore. Good maybe even many would call great, but not great enough to be remembered.

[CavaliersFTW]

Not disputing that Wilt's records are legendary.

But if you built a team around Durant/LeBron/Carmelo where they had to drop 40-50 a game... doesn't seem like it'd be out of the question.
Yes, it would be totally out of the question. Peak Kareem couldn't average 40 a game, and he was the Milwaukee Bucks designated gunner against several of the same exact competition Wilt faced in 1962, in essentially the same league and "era". Fatigue is a factor, and foul trouble. Fatigue and Wilt's ability to stay out of foul trouble are two very important things that bewildered the athletes in Wilt's era as to how Wilt was able to manage a 40-50 per game average. Of course he had a green light to shoot when he felt but it's because he could play an entire game plus OT's and continue to rebound and score points in a steady dependable, and unstoppable manner without even getting winded let alone fouling out.

And again nobody is touching Wilt's rebounding. The few in history who could, like say Rodman, still wouldn't be playing the minutes or putting up points, or having any of the other impact Wilt had. There is only one player that could do what Wilt did. Wilt.

[CavaliersFTW]

If they were hell bent on putting up stats, I think you would be surprised what a prime David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaq, or even Charles Barkley would do in the 60s IMO.
They'd maybe rebound like peak Jerry Lucas or Nate Thurmond at best, and perhaps score like Milwaukee Bucks Alcindor at best. I have no doubt they'd put up numbers, but highly doubt they'd touch Wilts numbers. If Kareem couldn't do it, they couldn't either.

[LAZERUSS]

You still don't get basketball and its starting to look like you never will.

There is no sense talking about Wilt's scoring totals without bringing up the fact that it was his goal to get those totals. It was his goal to score 50 a game so its goofy to compare it to other players who never made that goal. You will never understand that this is not baseball where everyone has basically the same amount of at bats with the same goal. You can compare stats in baseball.

If you took the Lebron of today and dropped him into 1962 and his goal was to score 50 a game ( it wouldn't be, too much of a team guy ) then he would score 50 a game without doubt. Just like a primed Jabbar would or a Durant or Kobe among others..


Gus Johnson while athletic for his time did not have the moves at all like players today. he looks like an amateur compared to todays players when he drives to the basket..Do you have any clips of his head at the rim? Haven't see any yet..I watched Gus at the time and while good for the time would be nothing today with the same skills he had..My Son had a high school teammate last year who did everything Gus did I those clips.

You, my friend, are full of shit.

Kareem played four years IN the Wilt-era, and 16 seasons after that. His HIGH game... 55 points.

Not only that, but he was traded to a lousy Laker team in '75, and instead of putting up his PEAK numbers (circa 70-71 and 71-72), he DECLINED. His scoring dropped to 27.7 ppg, and his FG% plummetted to .529. And how about KAJ shot-jacking 33 FGAs per game against Wilt in the '72 playoffs.... and scoring 33.6 ppg (and shooting .457 overall, and only .414 in the last four games of that series)? Hell, in that '72 playoff run, KAJ averaged a career post-season high of 29 FGAs per game....and guess what... 28.7 ppg!

BTW, a PEAK Kareem faced Bellamy, Reed, Dierking, Imhoff, and Thurmond...the same centers that a prime Wilt battled. And you and I both KNOW that Wilt was FAR more dominant against ALL of them in his career.

Someone mentioned Shaq. His HIGH game, and at his peak, was 61 points, and came in 45 minutes, against a 12-47 Clippers team, in a blowout win, and against a collection of centers that no one has ever heard of. Michael "Pure Bust" Olowakandi (and he only played 14 minutes), and then two non-centers in Peet Chilcutt and Antony Avitt. And to be honest, it looked like the Clippers were rooting him on, as well.

And yet I'm supposed to believe that Shaq could hang 50+ on Russell and his swarming Celtics (BTW, Wilt's high game against Russell was 62 points)? Or multiple 60+ point games, including a 73-36 game on 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy?


True, there are many examples of a player getting hot for one game, and maybe even a small stretch of games, but no one has come close to 40+ ppg for a season (and Wilt AVERAGED that his first SEVEN SEASONS...COMBINED.) Hell, Walt Wesley, who played IN the Wilt era, even had a 50 point game. Yet, his career average was 8.5 ppg. And Wilt reduced him to rubble in their H2H's.


Kobe had a string of nine 40+ point games, and averaged 44 ppg in that stretch. Don't tell me he wasn't taking every shot he could. Well, Chamberlain had TWO separate runs, 14 games in each, of 40+ point games, and he averaged 53 ppg and 54 ppg in those two streaks. He also tacked on a five game run of 351 points later on (70 ppg.)


I recall reading it somewhere, but MJ himself, claimed he couldn't even attempt to score anyhwere near as much as Wilt did. He simply knew he couldn't sustain it.


The FACT was....there was the NBA, and all of the players who have played in it in the history of the game...and then there was Wilt.

[Soundwave]

They'd maybe rebound like peak Jerry Lucas or Nate Thurmond at best, and perhaps score like Milwaukee Bucks Alcindor at best. I have no doubt they'd put up numbers, but highly doubt they'd touch Wilts numbers. If Kareem couldn't do it, they couldn't either.

To be fair to Kareem I think about 1966/67 the NBA had started to adjust to both Wilt, Russell, and Big O's superior athleticism and by the early 70s it wasn't nearly as easy to put up such monstrous numbers IMO.

A lot of the white players who couldn't hang with the bigger/integrated/more athletic progression the league was on were weeded out and replaced with bigger/stronger players.

In the early 60s the league just wasn't prepared to even compete with a player of Wilt's size/athleticism.

If Kareem played in the NBA in 1960-65 he probably would hit 40+ ppg IMO.

Most of the guys in the 60s if you look at their stats had much higher numbers from 60-65 vs 66-70.

[LAZERUSS]

The year before KAJ came into the league (68-69), a Chamberain who seldom shot the ball during the course of the season, hung games of 60 on Connie Dierking, and 66 on Jim Fox. KAJ would join the league the very next year and face both of the guys on numerous occassions....and his high game against each... 41 points. That would have been a BAD game for Wilt in the early to mid-60's against Dierking.

[Soundwave]

The year before KAJ came into the league (68-69), a Chamberain who seldom shot the ball during the course of the season, hung games of 60 on Connie Dierking, and 66 on Jim Fox. KAJ would join the league the very next year and face both of the guys on numerous occassions....and his high game against each... 41 points. That would have been a BAD game for Wilt in the early to mid-60's against Dierking.

Kareem average 34.8 ppg in his third year. Transplant him into 61 or 62 and I think he could hit 40 ppg if he really wanted to. Put 37 ppg Jordan in 61 or 62 and I think he goes above 40 ppg.

I think you kinda have to give a player a year to adjust to the league too I'm never a big fan of looking too deep into a player's rookie season.

Is there any full game footage of Wilt scoring 60+ by the way? I'm not talking about one of those highlight reel packages, I'm talking about one game. Hard to believe the NBA was so inept that they didn't even have some type of robust TV coverage by the late 60s.

[LAZERUSS]

Just a SMALL sampling of Wilt's domination...




Career 30-30 games:

Aside from Chamberlain, there have been 36 30-30 games in NBA history, and Russell is the leader of that group, with 7 (Bellamy and Thurmond are next with 3 each.)

How about Wilt? 132.


40-30 (or 30-40) games: Other than Wilt, the NBA has had 9 40-30 games, with Baylor being the only player to have 2.

Chamberlain? 73


50-30 games: Pettit and Baylor each with 1

Wilt? 32


60-20 games: Aside from Wilt, there have been four (Baylor with 3 and Shaq with 1)

Chamberlain? 28


60-30 games: Baylor with 1

Wilt? 8


40-40 games: There have been 8 in the history of the NBA, and Chamberlain had all of them.


50-40 games: Obviously, Wilt would be the only player to have ever have accomplsihed that feat, which he did 5 times.


70-30 games: Chamberlain has the only 2, 78-43 and 73-36 (against Bellamy.)


Oh, and IN the Wilt era there were a TOTAL of FIVE 60+ point games recorded (by anyone not named Wilt)...and how about Wilt, himself? 32!

So, in the "inflated 60's"...how come it was ONLY Wilt who was putting up historic numbers?

[LAZERUSS]

Kareem average 34.8 ppg in his third year. Transplant him into 61 or 62 and I think he could hit 40 ppg if he really wanted to. Put 37 ppg Jordan in 61 or 62 and I think he goes above 40 ppg.

I think you kinda have to give a player a year to adjust to the league too I'm never a big fan of looking too deep into a player's rookie season.

Those were his CAREER highs against Dierking and Fox.

BTW, KAJ averaged 28.8 ppg in his rookie season.

In the first nine games of that season, Wilt was leading the league, at 32.2 ppg, and on a .579 FG% (to go along with 20 rpg.) And it was consistent scoring, too. Wilt had games of 33, 35, 37, 38, 42, and 43 points. Oh, and he had a game against KAJ in which he outscored him, 25-23; outrebounded him, 25-20; outassistd him, 5-2; outblocked him, 3-2; and outshot him from the floor by a 9-14 to 9-21 margin.

Unfortunately, in that ninth game, and in which he had played 28 minutes, and scored 33 points on 13-14 shooting, he shredded his knee, and was never the same offensive force again.

Who knows, but Wilt's new coach that year, Joe Mullaney, had asked Wilt to become the focal point of the offense, (and he responded with a flurry), but Chamberlain might very well have been on his way to his 8th scoring crown (as well as his 10th FG% title, and his 12th rebounding title.)

[Soundwave]

Is there any footage of Wilt scoring 60+ in a game? I mean like the actual single game (not spliced highlights from like 10 different games/different seasons)?

I'd like to see how he played over the course of a game ... what types of defenses he faced, what post moves he used, etc.

[stanlove1111]

Those were his CAREER highs against Dierking and Fox.

BTW, KAJ averaged 28.8 ppg in his rookie season.

In the first nine games of that season, Wilt was leading the league, at 32.2 ppg, and on a .579 FG% (to go along with 20 rpg.) And it was consistent scoring, too. Wilt had games of 33, 35, 37, 38, 42, and 43 points. Oh, and he had a game against KAJ in which he outscored him, 25-23; outrebounded him, 25-20; outassistd him, 5-2; outblocked him, 3-2; and outshot him from the floor by a 9-14 to 9-21 margin.

Unfortunately, in that ninth game, and in which he had played 28 minutes, and scored 33 points on 13-14 shooting, he shredded his knee, and was never the same offensive force again.

Who knows, but Wilt's new coach that year, Joe Mullaney, had asked Wilt to become the focal point of the offense, (and he responded with a flurry), but Chamberlain might very well have been on his way to his 8th scoring crown (as well as his 10th FG% title, and his 12th rebounding title.)

Now he is so desperate to make a point he is actually comparing how a rookie did against how a 32 year old veteran did..

[MiseryCityTexas]

You still don't get basketball and its starting to look like you never will.

There is no sense talking about Wilt's scoring totals without bringing up the fact that it was his goal to get those totals. It was his goal to score 50 a game so its goofy to compare it to other players who never made that goal. You will never understand that this is not baseball where everyone has basically the same amount of at bats with the same goal. You can compare stats in baseball.

If you took the Lebron of today and dropped him into 1962 and his goal was to score 50 a game ( it wouldn't be, too much of a team guy ) then he would score 50 a game without doubt. Just like a primed Jabbar would or a Durant or Kobe among others..


Gus Johnson while athletic for his time did not have the moves at all like players today. he looks like an amateur compared to todays players when he drives to the basket..Do you have any clips of his head at the rim? Haven't see any yet..I watched Gus at the time and while good for the time would be nothing today with the same skills he had..My Son had a high school teammate last year who did everything Gus did I those clips.

Prime Gus Johnson would thrive easily in today's league. Especially since he's a great rebounder also. People aren't talking about Gus Johnson as a rebounder either in this thread, yet his rebounding is one of his biggest strengths. Gus Johnson had a nice turn around fallaway jumper in the 60s also. How many other players of that era were shooting jumpers like that? Gus Johnson is pretty much the original Lebron since they both from Akron Ohio.

[LAZERUSS]

Now he is so desperate to make a point he is actually comparing how a rookie did against how a 32 year old veteran did..

First of all, KAJ averaged 35.2 ppg in his ROOKIE post-season, which was his post-season career HIGH. IMHO, from the last half of his ROOKIE season, thru his entire '71 regular season and post-season, and thru his '72 regular season, KAJ was at his PEAK. He started a slow decline after that, albeit, he was still the best player in the league up until the last season of the '70's, and a top-5 player for much of the 80's.

Secondly, my point was NOT to disparage Kareem, but to merely point out that he never came close to the domination that a prime Wilt leveled against the NBA, including several of the same centers that both would face in their primes. For someone to simply ASSume that Kareem could score 40-50 ppg is not based in reality. Yes, he could occasionally hang 40-50 point games, but he never had the pure stamina, and more importantly, the drive, to do it for entire seasons. He was burned out by his '72 regular season, and in fact, had one of his worst playoff's because of it (not to mention he faced two of the top three defensive centers of all-time in that run.)

As for a rookie pounding a veteran...a ROOKIE Wilt was just TRASHING a PEAK Russell in their H2H's...as he would do his entire career. Take away their very first game, and Wilt averaged 40 ppg in his 10 other H2H's that season, and on a .481 FG%, in a league that shot .410 overall. Then, in his six H2H's in the EDF's, Wilt averaged 30.5 ppg on a .500 FG%, in a post-season that shot .402. And had he not badly injured his hand at the end of game two, he likely would have been considerably more dominant. As it was, in a must-win game five, Chamberlain hung a 50 point game, to go along with 35 rebounds, and on 22-42 from the field, in a WIN.


Again, NO ONE else in the Wilt-era was putting up the records that Wilt was. And it wasn't just the records, either, but the massive differentials against his peers. How about 60+ point games in the 14 seasons Wilt was in the league? Surely in that "inflated" era, there were many of them, right? Dead wrong. Aside from Wilt, who had 32 on his own, there were a TOTAL of FIVE. Which is pretty consistent with other decades. Take Wilt out of the equation, and the scoring records would look similar to any other period after Wilt retired. The highest full time "non-Wilt" season IN the Wilt-era? Rick Barry in 66-67, and at 35.6 ppg. Bob McAdoo averaged 34.5 ppg in 74-75 (two years after Wilt retired), MJ would hit his peak of 37.1 ppg in 86-87, and Kobe Bryant would average 35.4 ppg in '05-06. BTW, Barry took 28.7 FGA in his 40.7 mpg, MJ took 27.8 FGA in his 40 mpg, and Bryant took 27.2 FGA in his 41.0 mpg. Even Baylor, in his highest full time season, was "only" at 34.8 ppg on 29.7 FGAs. THAT seems to be the barrier for everyone not named Wilt.

And of course, NO ONE else had Wilt's incredible stamina, either. I get a kick out of those that bash Wilt's records, claiming that they were aided by his 48 mpg seasons. Well, anyone else would have been lying on the floor in the 4th quarters of those games...especially at the pace that Wilt drove his team's. Here again, had Wilt "only" played 40-42 mpg in his era, and over the course of 80+ game seasons, and his EFFICIENCY's would have risen considerably. But the anti-Wilt faction will never bring that up.

Not to mention that fact that Wilt was also crushing his peers on the glass, playing elite-level defense, and even handing out 3-4-5 apg in his scoring seasons. He was virtually..."doing it all."

I will say this, though. A MOTIVATED Kareem would have been the ONE player in NBA history that had the potential to score 40 ppg. But there was simply no way he could hang 50+ every night.

[Marchesk]

But if you built a team around Durant/LeBron/Carmelo where they had to drop 40-50 a game... doesn't seem like it'd be out of the question.

But could they play 48 minutes a game at a higher pace? Could they rebound as well as Baylor did? There's no 3 pt shot, the spacing isn't the same, and you have superior rim protectors waiting for you.

[Marchesk]

Name another player in history who average 24.2/24/8.2/63.9% over two seasons.

[LAZERUSS]

Name another player in history who average 24.2/24/8.2/63.9% over two seasons.

AND, who had the highest scoring games in each season, as well. In those two years he had games of 52, 53, 53, 58, and 68 points. He also had multiple 40+ point games, including one of 42 on 18-18 FG/FGAs.

In his last 12 regular season games of the '68 season, he had 11 triple doubles, and in the one game he didn't he had nine assists. And over the span of those 12 games he averaged 27-24-12 .694.

[Marchesk]

Also, his team averaged 65 wins over those two seasons, and likely would have won two titles instead of one if not for injuries.

[LAZERUSS]

Also, his team averaged 65 wins over those two seasons, and likely would have won two titles instead of one if not for injuries.

SURELY would have won two titles.

Thanks to PHILA....

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9328011&postcount=14

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9328006&postcount=13

As it was, with SEVEN of their EIGHT key players suffering injuries, or not playing at all, including Wilt, himself, ....they lost a game seven to the Celtics by FOUR points.

[LAZERUSS]

Is there any footage of Wilt scoring 60+ in a game? I mean like the actual single game (not spliced highlights from like 10 different games/different seasons)?

I'd like to see how he played over the course of a game ... what types of defenses he faced, what post moves he used, etc.

Unfortunately, Chamberlain had 271 40+ NBA games in his career...and the only 40+ point games that exist, are a college game in which he scored 40 points, and highlights from the '62 NBA ASG, in which he scored 42 points on 17-23 from the field.

[CavaliersFTW]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKSALqkzy-I

more gus footage for the up coming vid

[L.Kizzle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKSALqkzy-I

more gus footage for the up coming vid
Shawn Marion meets LeBron James.

[fpliii]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKSALqkzy-I

more gus footage for the up coming vid
:applause:

[CavaliersFTW]

Anyone notice how damn long his arms look? If not you will when the final vid is finished, he hardly has to jump at all to dunk, and he was only about 6-6 without shoes (Carmelo Anthony's height). His length is such that he blocks perimeter players face-up without fouling them and can keep possession, really impressive. He also blocks Artis Gilmore in one of those clips and as they stated could defend as a center guard or foward. His highlights look really impressive considering only about 7 games worth of footage exists. I can't imagine many players with only a 7 game sample size having similarly fun to watch clips.

[LAZERUSS]

Anyone notice how damn long his arms look? If not you will when the final vid is finished, he hardly has to jump at all to dunk, and he was only about 6-6 without shoes (Carmelo Anthony's height). His length is such that he blocks perimeter players face-up without fouling them and can keep possession, really impressive. He also blocks Artis Gilmore in one of those clips and as they stated could defend as a center guard or foward. His highlights look really impressive considering only about 7 games worth of footage exists. I can't imagine many players with only a 7 game sample size having similarly fun to watch clips.

You must have really edited that footage.

Everyone knows that Gus Johnson was a 6-0 170 lb white guy that used to shoot two-hand standing set shots at peach baskets, and picked up his rebounds off of the floor.

[CavaliersFTW]

You must have really edited that footage.

Everyone knows that Gus Johnson was a 6-0 170 lb white guy that used to shoot two-hand standing set shots at peach baskets, and picked up his rebounds off of the floor.
:lol of course

[CavaliersFTW]

rough cut of johnson mix, i think that's about what it'll look like now I'm just going to spend this next week fixing aspect ratios/color correcting etc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVZ9tWa_bn8

[fpliii]

rough cut of johnson mix, i think that's about what it'll look like now I'm just going to spend this next week fixing aspect ratios/color correcting etc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVZ9tWa_bn8
:applause:

[MiseryCityTexas]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/t31.0-8/10604716_717621511646089_1631371379527958075_o.jpg