The true worth of a MVP award

[SexSymbol]

Why does MVP hold so much value in a lot of your eyes?

Let me list you some reasons why I think it doesn't have a lot of legacy building criteria needed, to be a legit award:

1)It is voted by ESPN analysts, who obviously have their clear biases. And yeah, repeat that in your head again ESPN analysts, lol.

2)It has no stable criteria. Basically, the best story wins it. Last year 27 gamewinning streak won it, one year it's because the team has the best record (10), then in another year that same criteria isn't what decides the winner (12).

3)Quite a few greats have 1-2 of them because the media didn't like them, which goes back to point 1.
Shaq has one, and he's the most dominating figure ever,
Kobe has one, and he's been a 25-5-5 player for like 150 straight years,
Jerry West has none (what?),
Hakeem has one, and he's one of the best offensive and defensive combos ever, if not the best.
Duncan has 2, he's the model of consistency, and always lead his team to great records.
Elgin Baylor has none, one of the most dominating sports figures too. You get the point

Extra point: It lost credibility when it was stopped being voted on by players.

[JT123]

It is all about doing more with less, which is why Bron has so many. Kobe only has 1 because he couldn't lead his team to a great recored without a HOF big man. Shaq only has 1 because he had a stacked team and took too much time off during the regular season. As for this season, Durant is obviously the best player by a mile, but I would still vote for Lebron as the MVP. Lebron is playing with a bunch of washed up old guys who most likely won't even be in the league next year, while Durant is surrounded by young studs who will keep the Thunder in contention for years to come. His supporting cast is so good they were able to blow out the Celtics without Durant and Westbrook! :eek: How can someone with that much help possibly be league MVP? :confusedshrug:

[navy]

Everything from mvp awards to championships need proper context. Which is why it is silly to automatically count/discount either as valid.

[russwest0]

The MVP award is meaningless.

The FMVP award to a lesser extent is meaningless as well.

The MVP award is a joke though. Zero consistency from the voters on how they vote each year. You could do exactly what a former MVP did but lose out because the voters wanted to vote on some other criteria that fits whatever biases they have.

Guys in larger markets get more love too. If Paul George was in NY right now with them having the best record in the league he'd probably be considered 1b behind Durant.

[KirbyPls]

Crazy, a Kobe stan thinks MVPs are meaningless. Who would've thought.

It reminds me of the current Kobetards' argument that Bran is only the best in the world from 2012-2013 because these are his only two rings, yet Kobe was the best in the world from 2006-2010 while winning the same amount of rings in that time span.

Don't ever change Kobetards. :applause:

[AnaheimLakers24]

that award is garbage. bran fans dont even care about it now that he actually has what really matters. RINGS

[JT123]

Crazy, a Kobe stan thinks MVPs are meaningless. Who would've thought.

It reminds me of the current Kobetards' argument that Bran is only the best in the world from 2012-2013 because these are his only two rings, yet Kobe was the best in the world from 2006-2010 while winning the same amount of rings in that time span.

Don't ever change Kobetards. :applause:
They are a special bunch aren't they. :oldlol:

[KirbyPls]

anybody notice that 95% of Jan 14 posters are Lebron fan alts?

Not an alt. I'm 33 and Lebron's my favorite player ever. However, I actually think Kobe is an all-time great: #8 or so. I think Bron's peak is better than Kobe's but he isn't higher on the all-time list yet due to longevity/accomplishments (read rings). I love the NBA, and I don't like, but do appreciate Kobe, and believe the league is better with him healthy and playing. I get tired of the incessant trolling of Lebron by the Kobe fans on here, while also realizing Lebron stans (me included) can troll quite a bit as well).

Anyway, I'm from Idaho and used to be a Sonics fan given the relative closeness of Seattle. If it weren't for Clay Bennett, David Stern, and Kobe stans ripping Lebron incessantly, I might be stanning Durant. But I will never root for OKC ever. I appreciate Durant and Westbrook's talent as well as OKC's GM, but I can't think of any team I want to lose more than OKC.

Carry on.

[ArbitraryWater]

The reason West has none is because he played during a time of Wilt&Russell...

see what I just did? Applied context.

Literally the only thing wrong is Shaq only having one, where 01 and 05 where both mvp types, and Nash having two. I'd give 06 to Dirk... or LBJ

[I<3NBA]

well, in truth, all those awards mean nothing. even those all defense teams spot Kobe has that y'all are sure so proud of.

only one thing matters, right? winning a championship.

[knicksman]

The reason West has none is because he played during a time of Wilt&Russell...

see what I just did? Applied context.

Literally the only thing wrong is Shaq only having one, where 01 and 05 where both mvp types, and Nash having two. I'd give 06 to Dirk... or LBJ

the reason why west has none coz he plays like lebron or oscar who are statpadders

[fpliii]

The MVP award is meaningless.

The FMVP award to a lesser extent is meaningless as well.

The MVP award is a joke though. Zero consistency from the voters on how they vote each year. You could do exactly what a former MVP did but lose out because the voters wanted to vote on some other criteria that fits whatever biases they have.

Guys in larger markets get more love too. If Paul George was in NY right now with them having the best record in the league he'd probably be considered 1b behind Durant.
Think we should do an ISH retro MVP vote? We can do a playoffs MVP for each year too.

:confusedshrug:

[Solefade]

of course kobe stans think MVPs are worthless lol

[KirbyPls]

Not an alt. I'm 33 and Lebron's my favorite player ever. However, I actually think Kobe is an all-time great: #8 or so. I think Bron's peak is better than Kobe's but he isn't higher on the all-time list yet due to longevity/accomplishments (read rings). I love the NBA, and I don't like, but do appreciate Kobe, and believe the league is better with him healthy and playing. I get tired of the incessant trolling of Lebron by the Kobe fans on here, while also realizing Lebron stans (me included) can troll quite a bit as well).

Anyway, I'm from Idaho and used to be a Sonics fan given the relative closeness of Seattle. If it weren't for Clay Bennett, David Stern, and Kobe stans ripping Lebron incessantly, I might be stanning Durant. But I will never root for OKC ever. I appreciate Durant and Westbrook's talent as well as OKC's GM, but I can't think of any team I want to lose more than OKC.

Carry on.

And Lebron's my favorite player the a combination of his all-around game, unselfishness (which hurts him at times), and the hate he gets, but mostly his game. He will never be GOAT, since he's not better than MJ, his 2011 Finals, and he probably tops out at #5-7 all-time, but he's my favorite player and the incessant trolling and hate just solidifies it for me.

[KirbyPls]

the reason why west has none coz he plays like lebron or oscar who are statpadders

Worst poster ever. A Kobetard who is a combination of RussWest0 without the intensity, DueceBigalow without the knowledge, and Jabbar without the wit.

[knicksman]

Worst poster ever. A Kobetard who is a combination of RussWest0 without the intensity, DueceBigalow without the knowledge, and Jabbar without the wit.

kirby pls your an idiot:lol

[KirbyPls]

kirby pls your an idiot:lol

*you're

Carry on.

[knicksman]

*you're

Carry on.

*please :lol

[KirbyPls]

*please :lol

Fair enough. :applause:

[aj1987]

Shaq has one, and he's the most dominating figure ever
Shaq definitely got robbed once or twice.


Kobe has one, and he's been a 25-5-5 player for like 150 straight years
The years he could've won, his teams were absolute trash and playing along with another 28 PPG top 5 GOAT didn't help either ('01, '02, '03, etc)


Jerry West has none (what?)
Oscar, Wilt, Bill, Kareem...


Hakeem has one, and he's one of the best offensive and defensive combos ever, if not the best.
Magic, Jordan...2 top 5 GOAT's.


Duncan has 2, he's the model of consistency, and always lead his team to great records.
And has 2 MVP's.


Elgin Baylor has none, one of the most dominating sports figures too. You get the point
Again, Wilt and Russell. Also, his teams never great.

[TheMarkMadsen]

of course kobe stans think MVPs are worthless lol

nice avatar

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Kobe fans should be happy with the one MVP Kobe has. Everyone knows he only got it as a lifetime achievement award.

[KirbyPls]

Kobe fans should be happy with the one MVP Kobe has. Everyone knows he only got it as a lifetime achievement award.

:( but true. :lol

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobe fans should be happy with the one MVP Kobe has. Everyone knows he only got it as a lifetime achievement award.


Kind of like Lebron's "I signed with the right team in free agency" rings

[knicksman]

the true measure of impact

kobe playoffs on /off +/- =+8.3
lebron=8.2

with all star teammates

kobe=+10
lebron=+3.7

and yet these idiots believe lebron is better. :oldlol:

But I guess people are just that dumb.. Or else wilt and oscar wouldnt be top 10

[KirbyPls]

Kind of like Lebron's "I signed with the right team in free agency" rings

Which are similar to Kobe's "elite front courts carried me past the first round to 5 titles" rings.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Which are similar to Kobe's "elite front courts carried me past the first round to 5 titles" rings.

not really. Kobe's won 5 rings with multiple supporting cast.

Lebron?

[HoopsFanNumero1]

But seriously, is anyone surprised Kobe fans don't value MVPs? You know these same kids would be hyping him up and using it in every argument if he could actually win more than one.

[TheMarkMadsen]

But seriously, is anyone surprised Kobe fans don't value MVPs? You know these same kids would be hyping him up and using it in every argument if he could actually win more than one.


kind of like how Lebron fans pre 2012 didn't think rings mattered?

:roll:

ya'll are too easy

[HoopsFanNumero1]

kind of like how Lebron fans pre 2012 didn't think rings mattered?

:roll:

ya'll are too easy

Except I never held that belief :confusedshrug:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Except I never held that belief :confusedshrug:


ok, well at least there's a valid argument to be made when discussing the validity of MVPS

When Steve Nash has twice as many MVP's as Shaq you need to stop taking the MVP award as some kind of ultimate measurement of players, because in truth the criteria for the award changes on a year to year basis.

you've got to realize how ridiculous it seems to watch Lebron win MVP when he has 2 other all stars on his team when in the early 2000's they would literally discount Shaq from MVP discussions because he had Kobe.

[Sarcastic]

It guarantees that you get into the Hall of Fame. Every MVP that has been HOF eligible has gotten in. No other award does that.

[pauk]

MVP has a stable criteria... and if you go after it you will understand why anybody who ever won the MVP was the correct winner.

MVP is about who's game translates to most team success compared to other MVP candidates, what he has to work with around him or what he has to do in order to win is considered and also compared to other MVP candidates.... who fits that description the best, wins it.... its really as simple as that....

It is given to that one player who was basically responsible for most team impact / success.... thats why its very worthy...

A guy who would guaranteed run away with the MVP every single season is a guy who plays with the worst supporting cast in the NBA but gets the best team record anyways.......... even if he doesnt get a championship later, that guy is still a freaking winner...

[HoopsFanNumero1]

ok, well at least there's a valid argument to be made when discussing the validity of MVPS

When Steve Nash has twice as many MVP's as Shaq you need to stop taking the MVP award as some kind of ultimate measurement of players, because in truth the criteria for the award changes on a year to year basis.

you've got to realize how ridiculous it seems to watch Lebron win MVP when he has 2 other all stars on his team when in the early 2000's they would literally discount Shaq from MVP discussions because he had Kobe.

I've always held the belief it should go the best player on one of the top performing teams, so to a large extent it does depend on how good you team is. As dominant as Shaq was in the playoffs during his Lakers years, he was often lazy in the regular season.

Another thing to keep in mind is that there's not always a clear cut MVP. You could argue CP3 could've won it in 08 or Wade in 09, so you kind of need to use the team record to narrow down the list.

[zoom17]

It guarantees that you get into the Hall of Fame. Every MVP that has been HOF eligible has gotten in. No other award does that.

:facepalm so if derrick rose retired next year he will be in the hall of fame.

[Kblaze8855]

Extra point: It lost credibility when it was stopped being voted on by players.

Please...



In 1975 back when players voted for MVP...a guy named Mike Bantom got a first place vote. Mike Bantom was the 4th leading scorer on a 32 win Suns team. Sam Lacey and Sidney wicks also got #1 votes.

I noticed this when looking into the idea that media voting is the wrong way to do it.

Im not sure it can be done in a way that wipes out or even greatly reduces issues like voters getting sick of one guy, getting swept up in stories, and all the other things we complain about.

The same questionable shit happened when the players voted. Wes Unseld won MVP over Wilt/Reed...while being factually worse....due to a team turnaround when he wasnt his teams best player. Reported to the playoffs to get swiftly swept and outplayed by Reed. hes not even an all star the following year.

Not hating on Wes...just saying. The players get swept up in the same hype the media does. The old US basketball writers MVP had the exact same results as the players every year but one...when they gave it to Wilt not Oscar. The sporting News MVP was the same as the player voted MVP all but 2 years from the 50s to the 80s...once they gave it to Nate Archibald(Led the league in scoring and assists) instead of Dave Cowens. neither gave it to Kareem...who did 30/16/5 on a 60 win team. The other year they had it different was giving it to Bernard King instead of Bird and Bernard was second in the NBA vote.

It would be the same no matter who votes damn near ever year.


Damn near ever MVP winner ever would win it no matter who voted.

[6 for 24]

I wholeheartedly agree with the original post. That Kobe Bryant-- the greatest player in NBA history-- has only a single MVP is blasphemous.

I keep hearing that the criteria for MVP is the player with the best stats on a contending team. Well then, let's look at some of Kobe's MVP snubbs:

2005: NBA PER (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=324201)

[sd3035]

Not an alt. I'm 33 and Lebron's my favorite player ever. However, I actually think Kobe is an all-time great: #8 or so. I think Bron's peak is better than Kobe's but he isn't higher on the all-time list yet due to longevity/accomplishments (read rings). I love the NBA, and I don't like, but do appreciate Kobe, and believe the league is better with him healthy and playing. I get tired of the incessant trolling of Lebron by the Kobe fans on here, while also realizing Lebron stans (me included) can troll quite a bit as well).

Anyway, I'm from Idaho and used to be a Sonics fan given the relative closeness of Seattle. If it weren't for Clay Bennett, David Stern, and Kobe stans ripping Lebron incessantly, I might be stanning Durant. But I will never root for OKC ever. I appreciate Durant and Westbrook's talent as well as OKC's GM, but I can't think of any team I want to lose more than OKC.

Carry on.


http://www.quickmeme.com/img/58/5855f2df6025f087651d54f4bf1b5709c4512387033acf4f12 e3b68c5680cd80.jpg

[TheMilkyBarKid]

not really. Kobe's won 5 rings with multiple supporting cast.

Lebron?
Your levels of reading comprehension are terrible, the term 'elite front courts' was clearly the focus.
You either chose to ignore it or were unable to establish that.

[plowking]

Why does MVP hold so much value in a lot of your eyes?

Let me list you some reasons why I think it doesn't have a lot of legacy building criteria needed, to be a legit award:

1)It is voted by ESPN analysts, who obviously have their clear biases. And yeah, repeat that in your head again ESPN analysts, lol.

These are people who watch sport for a living. They are told to write about what they write about, hence what sells. Journalists don't often get to get their own opinion pieces out as much as you think. A lot of it is handled by editors.
They are the right people to vote on it. Obviously some will have biases, but they watch more than 99% of people.


2)It has no stable criteria. Basically, the best story wins it. Last year 27 gamewinning streak won it, one year it's because the team has the best record (10), then in another year that same criteria isn't what decides the winner (12).
Its not the best story, its always been the same criteria for just about the last 30 years. Top 4 or 5 team with the most spectacular player on it. There are no story impacts behind it. That is the criteria, top 4 or 5, and it hasn't changed.


3)Quite a few greats have 1-2 of them because the media didn't like them, which goes back to point 1.
Shaq has one, and he's the most dominating figure ever,
Kobe has one, and he's been a 25-5-5 player for like 150 straight years,
Jerry West has none (what?),
Hakeem has one, and he's one of the best offensive and defensive combos ever, if not the best.
Duncan has 2, he's the model of consistency, and always lead his team to great records.
Elgin Baylor has none, one of the most dominating sports figures too. You get the point

Shaq only really deserved 1 or 2, and its all he got.
Yes, the year where Iverson got it, he probably deserved it, due to playing a few more games. But at the end of the day, Iverson won the same amount of games as that Laker team, and he had a far worse supporting cast.
Kobe only deserved one. Outside of 2008, give me a single year he deserved it, based on all the other years of criteria being a top 4 or 5 team? 2008 is the only one.
Same goes for Hakeem. He didn't really play on winning teams during the regular seasons.
West never had a chance to win one. He was always just on the brink, and then he teamed up with Chamberlain...
Baylor was another one that didn't get the opportunity to win in the regular season at the right time.
Duncan came 2nd a few times, and its a toss up as to whether he could have won a few more here and there, but he didn't. Garnett got one over him, Shaq got one, Iverson got one, and they were all more deserving the years they got it.


Extra point: It lost credibility when it was stopped being voted on by players.

Nope. The players have more bias than the media does.

MVP is, and always will be the most prestigious award in 99% of sports. It shows a level of consistency and success over an extended period of time. It shows you were the standard for the season.

[plowking]

:facepalm so if derrick rose retired next year he will be in the hall of fame.

There aren't a whole lot of players that were better than Derrick Rose during his MVP year in NBA history.

[AnaheimLakers24]

Not an alt. I'm 33 and Lebron's my favorite player ever. However, I actually think Kobe is an all-time great: #8 or so. I think Bron's peak is better than Kobe's but he isn't higher on the all-time list yet due to longevity/accomplishments (read rings). I love the NBA, and I don't like, but do appreciate Kobe, and believe the league is better with him healthy and playing. I get tired of the incessant trolling of Lebron by the Kobe fans on here, while also realizing Lebron stans (me included) can troll quite a bit as well).

Anyway, I'm from Idaho and used to be a Sonics fan given the relative closeness of Seattle. If it weren't for Clay Bennett, David Stern, and Kobe stans ripping Lebron incessantly, I might be stanning Durant. But I will never root for OKC ever. I appreciate Durant and Westbrook's talent as well as OKC's GM, but I can't think of any team I want to lose more than OKC.

Carry on.
33 and still dick rides some bball player like a 16 year old:coleman: :roll:

[sportjames23]

****, shut the **** up


:roll: :roll: :roll:

[tpols]

There aren't a whole lot of players that were better than Derrick Rose during his MVP year in NBA history.
Could probably name 100 seasons or more combined from the top 20 GOATs

[BigMacAttack]

Could probably name 100 seasons or more combined from the top 20 GOATs

20 players isnt a whole lot lol, thats if all even have a better season.

Anyway i dont think Drose is HOF just yet.

[aj1987]

Could probably name 100 seasons or more combined from the top 20 GOATs
And that's just 100 seasons out of what? A couple hundred thousand? If you take all the seasons of all the players who played in the NBA, Rose's season would probably be in the top 10%. This is coming from a Rose hater, BTW.

I'm not saying he deserves to be in the HOF already, but his current resume with another 2 or 3 solid seasons will make him a lock for the HOF.

[tpols]

And that's just 100 seasons out of what? A couple hundred thousand? If you take all the seasons of all the players who played in the NBA, Rose's season would probably be in the top 10%. This is coming from a Rose hater, BTW.

I'm not saying he deserves to be in the HOF already, but his current resume with another 2 or 3 solid seasons will make him a lock for the HOF.
Im just sayin. Top 10%..you can say that for any MVP winner.. you could say that for any all star starter probably when you factor how many scrubs and role players theres been.

2011 was a weak year for MVP period.. Dwight was quitting on his team destroying chemistry with coach and teammates, Lebron had a historic year for choking missing GW after GW plus he wasnt winning because the backlash from the decision, Wade same deal..

2011 Rose, while he deserved it is the worst player to ever win an MVP.. so sugar coating it as well he was still top 10% doesnt do much for the context when discussing MVP candidates in certain years.


And honestly, there are a ton of players on equal footing as 2011 Rose.. put prime tim hardaway, kevin Johnson, etc on bulls and they could throw up what rose did. And theyre top 50ish players Id guess. Theres a long list of players better than 11 Rose.

[aj1987]

Im just sayin. Top 10%..you can say that for any MVP winner.. you could say that for any all star starter probably when you factor how many scrubs and role players theres been.

2011 was a weak year for MVP period.. Dwight was quitting on his team destroying chemistry with coach and teammates, Lebron had a historic year for choking missing GW after GW plus he wasnt winning because the backlash from the decision, Wade same deal..

2011 Rose, while he deserved it is the worst player to ever win an MVP.. so sugar coating it as well he was still top 10% doesnt do much for the context when discussing MVP candidates in certain years.


And honestly, there are a ton of players on equal footing as 2011 Rose.. put prime tim hardaway, kevin Johnson, etc on bulls and they could throw up what rose did. And theyre top 50ish players Id guess. Theres a long list of players better than 11 Rose.
Good post. One of the few times that we agree on all counts.

[tpols]

Good post. One of the few times that we agree on all counts.
:cheers:

[plowking]

Could probably name 100 seasons or more combined from the top 20 GOATs

The point is, there aren't a whole lot of players. The list is even smaller when you narrow it down to those who did it on 62 win teams...
The fact is, it doesn't matter that Rose wasn't better than certain players over the course of history, or even players that season (Bron, Wade, Howard, Dirk, etc), Rose was great on a 62 win team, and he'd even take the MVP over the likes of other greats from previous eras with that criteria.
Hes taking it off Iverson in 2001. He'd take it off Garnett in 04. Might even take off Magic in 89.

Not better than any of those players, but he was great that season, like few in NBA history have been.

[Lebron23]

Kareem have 6 MVP, Bill Russell and Michael Jordan both have 5 MVPs, and they are 3 of the greatest players of all time.

[SexSymbol]

well, in truth, all those awards mean nothing. even those all defense teams spot Kobe has that y'all are sure so proud of.

only one thing matters, right? winning a championship.
Glad that some LBJ stans still have some brain

[leMVP]

No, it's not.

And stop those agenda threads,you yourself would post a pic of you *********ing over Durant's pic holding the mvp trophy by the end of the season.

Oh i forgot, Kobe only had one, a gifted one over the rightful choice back then (CP3).

KD would match kobe's regular season accolads and surpass them by the end of this season, better start buckling up because the next few years is going to be hard fall for Kobe fans.

[Bandito]

I agree with you OP. Like the all star that award is just a popularity contest.

[NumberSix]

MVP matters, but with the caveat that it's an award that they USUALLY get right. They do get it wrong from time to time.

[GaryRaymond23]

I never know if I should type out, an MVP award or a MVP award.

Anyways, MVP's are seemingly meaningless. It typically goes to a top 10 player with a top 3 record in the NBA.

The MVP award should go to players like Goran Dragic/Anthony Davis, teams who would be laughably worse without their star player.

[SexSymbol]

No, it's not.

And stop those agenda threads,you yourself would post a pic of you *********ing over Durant's pic holding the mvp trophy by the end of the season.

Oh i forgot, Kobe only had one, a gifted one over the rightful choice back then (CP3).

KD would match kobe's regular season accolads and surpass them by the end of this season, better start buckling up because the next few years is going to be hard fall for Kobe fans.
I don't think that Kobe's legacy would be different with move MVPS or without the one he has, i consider them meaningless, only agenda you're bringing in this thread is yours...
I don't give a **** about Durant winning it too, all that matters is how he performs in the PO.
The next few years will be a hard fall for you too, for when you understand what the league will lose in Kobe retiring, it'll be too late for you to admit your mistakes.

[Trollsmasher]

Isn't it funny how only Kobe stans think MVPs are worthless?:lol

[kshutts1]

I've never put much stock in ranking/rating players based on team accomplishments. That includes championships and, to a lesser extent, MVPs. While the award itself is given to an individual, it is most often given to an individual on a top team. I believe an MVP should be the player that is most responsible for their team's success, even if that success is minimal relative to the top teams.

For example, Minnesota KG was the MVP pretty much every season.... even if his team was never a top team. Take KG off of that team, and they're arguably the worst team in the league. With KG, they're in the playoffs and a threat in every game, every round. That is an MVP. Not whatever the media has made an MVP to be.

[LeGOAT]

It means a hell of a lot less if your favorite player is not winning them and a player you hate is. I can guarantee KObetards would have zero issue if their boy was the player with 4 MVPs.

[SexSymbol]

It means a hell of a lot less if your favorite player is not winning them and a player you hate is. I can guarantee KObetards would have zero issue if their boy was the player with 4 MVPs.
No, I would still have issues with an award which has absolutely no criteria.
So as I don't really care about all-nba, or all-d teams. But at least they're voted on by coaches.

[TMT]

It means a hell of a lot less if your favorite player is not winning them and a player you hate is.

So when Durant takes it this year, all you Lebron stans will be saying MVPs aren't all that. :oldlol:

[Flash31]

THe MVP doesn't and hasn't for years meant as much period.

The media votes for it and they have their biases.
The criteria like the DPOY changes to whatever suits the media into making who they want MVP.


One year it's best player,other best stats,other the best player on most winning team,other what makes the best story,other on who's the most popular and media favorite.




There is no criteria anymore for almost every award.

DPOY--one year it's blocks,rebounding,other defensive fg%,other best defensive player on best team,other best defensive player on best defensive team.

ALL NBA Teams-coaches have their biases and reputation sticks more than anything,if a player is disliked or not popular enough or is hated

Dunk Contest winner-it's a prop basically,
judged on popularity and who the NBA loves most at moment and wants to win



The only awards truly meaningful are Finals MVP and rings

even stat awards are misconstrued due to basing it on avg rather than totals
like one year Rondo won and had way less assists than other



The main awards are basically fit to whoever fits the medias and NBA narrative and who they like or perceive as best based on either popularity,reputation,clear bias


The NBA tries to put on whoever either makes them most moneymwho they like,or what makes the best story


EX:
SAC-lal 2002 SERIES,d rOSE WINNING mvp OVER the "evil,colluded,bad guy" LeBron,Kobe getting ALL-D 1sts and hasn't played much d in years,Dirk having a Free Throw series with Durant(NBA's golden boy and trying to sell Dirk/Mavs vs LeBron,Wade/Heat rivalry)
Bulls getting to play way more physical d and harder than anyone else and flagrants are just hard fouls,Pacers getting built up to Heat and PG getting MVP talks and Roy getting the special power of "Law of Hibbert",
The Heat getting the lLEAST AMOUNT of FTA EVR in a 7 game series in the FINALS)


Face it,the NBA is a sport based strictly on entertainment,money,and who makes best headlines rather than actual competition,rules,unbiased refs,commentators,media

[Sarcastic]

MVP matters, but with the caveat that it's an award that they USUALLY get right. They do get it wrong from time to time.


They don't get it wrong. They just don't always give it to the right guy. Derrick Rose, Steve Nash, Karl Malone, and Charles Barkley all had tremendous seasons, even if there were players that were better.

[NumberSix]

They don't get it wrong. They just don't always give it to the right guy. Derrick Rose, Steve Nash, Karl Malone, and Charles Barkley all had tremendous seasons, even if there were players that were better.
Not giving it to the right guy = getting it wrong.

[TheGreatDeraj]

Why does MVP hold so much value in a lot of your eyes?

Let me list you some reasons why I think it doesn't have a lot of legacy building criteria needed, to be a legit award:

1)It is voted by ESPN analysts, who obviously have their clear biases. And yeah, repeat that in your head again ESPN analysts, lol.

2)It has no stable criteria. Basically, the best story wins it. Last year 27 gamewinning streak won it, one year it's because the team has the best record (10), then in another year that same criteria isn't what decides the winner (12).

3)Quite a few greats have 1-2 of them because the media didn't like them, which goes back to point 1.
Shaq has one, and he's the most dominating figure ever,
Kobe has one, and he's been a 25-5-5 player for like 150 straight years,
Jerry West has none (what?),
Hakeem has one, and he's one of the best offensive and defensive combos ever, if not the best.
Duncan has 2, he's the model of consistency, and always lead his team to great records.
Elgin Baylor has none, one of the most dominating sports figures too. You get the point

Extra point: It lost credibility when it was stopped being voted on by players.

Agreed with bold. I place very little value on MVP. It's nice to have, but overall rather meaningless.

If the MVP meant best overall player and was voted on by coaches and players then it would be a more worthwhile award.

[Solefade]

i bet you most of the kobetards on here will argue multiple all-team defense > mvps :lol

[SexSymbol]

i bet you most of the kobetards on here will argue multiple all-team defense > mvps :lol
No, those hold little to no value too.
Regular season awards in general are pretty much worthless, it's all about PO baby.
So far what I've gathered from this thread is that LBJ/Heat fans love regular season awards, and we, fans of LAL, are more of a postseason lovers.

[NumberSix]

No, those hold little to no value too.
Regular season awards in general are pretty much worthless, it's all about PO baby.
So far what I've gathered from this thread is that LBJ/Heat fans love regular season awards, and we, fans of LAL, are more of a postseason lovers.
Playoffs ARE more important. The only problem is that the playoffs are a much smaller sample size and the achievements are team based.

They should probably get rid of the FMVP and make a PMVP.

[SexSymbol]

Playoffs ARE more important. The only problem is that the playoffs are a much smaller sample size and the achievements are team based.

They should probably get rid of the FMVP and make a PMVP.

But that smaller sample size holds infinitely more value.
Bolded is true

[aj1987]

No, those hold little to no value too.
Regular season awards in general are pretty much worthless, it's all about PO baby.
So far what I've gathered from this thread is that LBJ/Heat fans love regular season awards, and we, fans of LAL, are more of a postseason lovers.
Should Hondo be ranked over the likes of Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Magic, Bird, etc.?

[NumberSix]

Should Hondo be ranked over the likes of Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Magic, Bird, etc.?
No. See, what you don't understand is, that all the rules that apply to Kobe apply differently to everybody else.

[SexSymbol]

Should Hondo be ranked over the likes of Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Magic, Bird, etc.?
Hondo is top 25 all time, he's not magic or bird, but hes a great

[NumberSix]

Hondo is top 25 all time, he's not magic or bird, but hes a great
8 rings doe.

[SexSymbol]

8 rings doe.
exactly, can't underestimate him

[NumberSix]

exactly, can't underestimate him
8 > 6 > 5

[aj1987]

Hondo is top 25 all time, he's not magic or bird, but hes a great
According to your logic, he should be top 5 GOAT. 8 rings and all...

[Professor Griff]

But that smaller sample size holds infinitely more value.
Bolded is true

You can apply the same logic to FMVP vs. PMVP too.

[NumberSix]

According to your logic, he should be top 5 GOAT. 8 rings and all...
And it's not like he's Robert Horry either. Dude has a FMVP and was lead scorer on multiple championship teams.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

After Lebron's 4, I stopped seeing much if any value in them.

[MavsSuperFan]

The award means a lot to me. There are only a handful of times it went to the wrong guy, but even then it went to one of the top players in the league (at worst top 3) that year.

I would rather win an MVP than win a championship as the second best player on the team.
Eg. Rather be cleveland Lebron than Bulls dynasty pippen.

Also MVPs = max contract.

[SexSymbol]

The award means a lot to me. There are only a handful of times it went to the wrong guy, but even then it went to one of the top players in the league (at worst top 3) that year.

I would rather win an MVP than win a championship as the second best player on the team.
Eg. Rather be cleveland Lebron than Bulls dynasty pippen.

Also MVPs = max contract.
No team in the NBA would want you

[Heavincent]

It's voted on by the media, so I don't care about it a whole lot. I don't need the media to form my opinions.

[SamuraiSWISH]

A true MVP awards worth is the combination of play in REGULAR season + PLAYOFFS, this is the way it should always be. If I was head of the league, that's how I'd define the award. It weeds out the fraudulent MVPs.

Thus:

2013 - LeBron, I guess
2012 - LeBron
2011 - Dirk

2010 - Kobe
2009 - LeBron
2008 - Kobe
2007 - Duncan
2006 - Wade
2005 - Duncan
2004 - Garnett
2003 - Duncan
2002 - Shaq
2001 - Shaq
2000 - Shaq
1999 - Duncan

1998 - MJ
1997 - MJ
1996 - MJ
1995 - Hakeem
1994 - Hakeem
1993 - MJ
1992 - MJ
1991 - MJ
1990 - MJ

1989 - MJ
1988 - Magic
1987 - Magic
1986 - Bird
1985 - Bird
1984 - Bird

Much more accurate gauge all-time of who the league's alpha dog.

[ArbitraryWater]

A true MVP awards worth is the combination of play in REGULAR season + PLAYOFFS, this is the way it should always be. If I was head of the league, that's how I'd define the award. It weeds out the fraudulent MVPs.

Thus:

2013 - LeBron, I guess
2012 - LeBron
2011 - Dirk

2010 - Kobe
2009 - LeBron
2008 - Kobe
2007 - Duncan
2006 - Wade
2005 - Duncan
2004 - Garnett
2003 - Duncan
2002 - Shaq
2001 - Shaq
2000 - Shaq
1999 - Duncan

1998 - MJ
1997 - MJ
1996 - MJ
1995 - Hakeem
1994 - Hakeem
1993 - MJ
1992 - MJ
1991 - MJ
1990 - MJ

1989 - MJ
1988 - Magic
1987 - Magic
1986 - Bird
1985 - Bird
1984 - Bird

Much more accurate gauge all-time of who the league's alpha dog.

Thats basically fmvp with the exception in 2009&2004.. and then 1990, 1989..

[SamuraiSWISH]

Thats basically fmvp with the exception in 2009&2004.. and then 1990, 1989..
Correct, in rare cases when level of play by an individual far exceeds expectations or anyone else, even if they didn't have a squad around him talented enough to win a championship. You forgot 2008, too. Kobe deserved MVP that season unquestionably when taking into account playoff performance.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

A true MVP awards worth is the combination of play in REGULAR season + PLAYOFFS, this is the way it should always be. If I was head of the league, that's how I'd define the award. It weeds out the fraudulent MVPs.

Thus:

2013 - LeBron, I guess
2012 - LeBron
2011 - Dirk
2010 - Kobe
2009 - LeBron
2008 - Kobe
2007 - Duncan
2006 - Wade
2005 - Duncan
2004 - Garnett
2003 - Duncan
2002 - Shaq
2001 - Shaq
2000 - Shaq
1999 - Duncan

1998 - MJ
1997 - MJ
1996 - MJ
1995 - Hakeem
1994 - Hakeem
1993 - MJ
1992 - MJ
1991 - MJ
1990 - MJ

1989 - MJ
1988 - Magic
1987 - Magic
1986 - Bird
1985 - Bird
1984 - Bird

Much more accurate gauge all-time of who the league's alpha dog.

This IS much more accurate. The way people "gauge" a players worth by his MVPs, it's a complete joke Shaq only has 1. THE most dominant player post MJ....only has one MVP.

Sidenote, but media voters probably felt like complete asses giving Dirk that MVP following the shellacking versus GS. :oldlol:

[SamuraiSWISH]

This IS much more accurate.
Historically, I do too. A much better representation of their worth as players, and their legacy.

MJ - 8
Bird - 3
Shaq - 3
Duncan - 3
LeBron - 3
Magic - 2
Kobe - 2
Hakeem - 2
Dirk - 1
Wade - 1
Garnett - 1

[SexSymbol]

Historically, I do too. A much better representation of their worth as players, and their legacy.

MJ - 8
Bird - 3
Shaq - 3
Duncan - 3
LeBron - 3
Magic - 2
Kobe - 2
Hakeem - 2
Dirk - 1
Wade - 1
Garnett - 1
That's nonsense, you gave mvp to lebron in 09 and he was eliminated in the second round by an inferior team.
Basically, if you don't win the title, you pretty much can't be mvp if we fix your criteria. Except for billups in 04, pierce in 08

[SamuraiSWISH]

That's nonsense, you gave mvp to lebron in 09 and he was eliminated in the second round by an inferior team.
Actually it was the conference finals. And it wasn't due to LeBron. James had historically great level of play that series, and all through out the playoffs. I can see the argument for Kobe, don't get me wrong. But James playoffs on an individual level was more impressive.


Basically, if you don't win the title, you pretty much can't be mvp if we fix your criteria. Except for billups in 04, pierce in 08
Nope.

LeBron - 2009
Kobe - 2008
KG - 2004
MJ - 1990
MJ 1989

Generally the league's best player wins a championship. It's just that simple. In rare cases someone's level of play trumps team success. What years exactly do you disagree with anyway? Because it's all pretty accurate if you take into account the FULL season.

[JT123]

Why would MVP's be more valuable if players and coaches voted instead of media? Any idiot knows that players and coaches are just as biased as media members, if not more so. :hammerhead: If a player has a choice between voting for one of their best friends who plays in the opposite conference, vs voting for a player who has knocked their team out of the playoffs multiple times, who do you think the player would vote for? :coleman:
Stop trying to act like it's only media members who have biases. EVERYONE is biased in one way or another.

[SexSymbol]

Why would MVP's be more valuable if players and coaches voted instead of media? Any idiot knows that players and coaches are just as biased as media members, if not more so. :hammerhead: If a player has a choice between voting for one of their best friends who plays in the opposite conference, vs voting for a player who has knocked their team out of the playoffs multiple times, who do you think the player would vote for? :coleman:
Stop trying to act like it's only media members who have biases. EVERYONE is biased in one way or another.
Yeah, but at least they're much more knowledgable.

[SexSymbol]

Actually it was the conference finals. And it wasn't due to LeBron. James had historically great level of play that series, and all through out the playoffs. I can see the argument for Kobe, don't get me wrong. But James playoffs on an individual level was more impressive.


Nope.

LeBron - 2009
Kobe - 2008
KG - 2004
MJ - 1990
MJ 1989

Generally the league's best player wins a championship. It's just that simple. In rare cases someone's level of play trumps team success. What years exactly do you disagree with anyway? Because it's all pretty accurate if you take into account the FULL season.
Isiah in 89 and 90 :cheers:
LeBron lost to a team that Kobe beat, and Kobe got 33/8/7 in the finals lol, there's no argument here.
KG yeah sure, told you 04 was an exception, just like 08.

[aj1987]

You still didn't answer my question. Is Hondo higher than Kobe because he has 8 rings?

[Lebron23]

That's why we have a Finals MVP Award. Most of the winners with the exception of Tony Parker, Paul Pierce, and Chauncey Billups were the best player of their teams in the playoffs.

You cannot be a top 5 player of all time if you only have 1 Regular MVP Award. They always gave it to the best player of a top 5 in the NBA.

I think Kareem was the only MVP winner who played under a 0.500 team. His team only won 40 games, and missed the playoffs in the 1975 NBA Season.

Shaq could have been a 3x NBA MVP. He finished 2nd in MVP voting in 2005, and 1995.

They gave the MVP Award to Iverson in 2001 because his team over achieved in the regular season, and he led the NBA in Scoring and steals per game.

[JT123]

Isiah in 89 and 90 :cheers:
LeBron lost to a team that Kobe beat, and Kobe got 33/8/7 in the finals lol, there's no argument here.
KG yeah sure, told you 04 was an exception, just like 08.
And Lebron averaged nearly 40 ppg against the Magic, so Kobe has no case. Kobe was just lucky he got to face the Magic after their shooters cooled down.

[SexSymbol]

You still didn't answer my question. Is Hondo better than Kobe because he has 8 rings?
What? No, you have to be a leader of the team in multiple occassions to be in the conversation for top 10.
Kobe's a leader or co-leader for 4 rings, and has another great PO run to compliment the fifth one. Sad that he couldn't deliver a great finals performance in 00 due to being intentionally injured.
Hondo's a 1 time fmvp, but he mostly played behind other greats, there's a difference between them.
You have to look at the context, whether you like it or not :cheers:

[SexSymbol]

And Lebron averaged nearly 40 ppg against the Magic, so Kobe has no case. Kobe was just lucky he got to face the Magic after their shooters cooled down.
In a losing effort, while playing absolutely no defense in that series.
Kobe's defense was great throughout the whole 09 PO or 10 PO.

[Lebron23]

You still didn't answer my question. Is Hondo higher than Kobe because he has 8 rings?


Hondo was also a former NBA Finals MVP. He could have been a 2x NBA Finals MVP. He was one of their best players in the NBA Finals pre 1969.

[Lebron23]

In a losing effort, while playing absolutely no defense in that series.
Kobe's defense was great throughout the whole 09 PO or 10 PO.


Did you watch the series? Kobe played with Gasol, Odom, Ariza while Lebron played with Mo williams who struggled in that series

[riseagainst]

In a losing effort, while playing absolutely no defense in that series.
Kobe's defense was great throughout the whole 09 PO or 10 PO.

you are a huge stan.

:applause:

[Lebron23]

Pre MVP Lebron averaged 31/7/7 (50-32) in the 2006 NBA Season, and 30/8/7 (45-37) in the 2008 NBA Season. The League only gave him the MVP Award when his teams started winning over 60 games in the regular season.

He finished 2nd in MVP voting in 2006.
He finished top 4 in MVP Voting in 2008.

[NumberSix]

What? No, you have to be a leader of the team in multiple occassions to be in the conversation for top 10.
Kobe's a leader or co-leader for 4 rings, and has another great PO run to compliment the fifth one. Sad that he couldn't deliver a great finals performance in 00 due to being intentionally injured.
Hondo's a 1 time fmvp, but he mostly played behind other greats, there's a difference between them.
You have to look at the context, whether you like it or not :cheers:
This might be the most obvious alt troll account ever.

[Lebron23]

23 yrs.old Lebron averaged 30 ppg on 49 FG%, 7.9 rpg, 7.2 apg, and 1.1 spg, and 1.1 bpg, and he still failed to win the Maurice Podoloff Trophy.

[SexSymbol]

Did you watch the series? Kobe played with Gasol, Odom, Ariza while Lebron played with Mo williams who struggled in that series
MO - 18-4-4
West - 15-4-3
Z - 10-9
Varejao - 9-5
Yeah, sure looks like nothing of a supporting cast.
Now imagine if lebron took a little bit less shots and played more team ball with at least average defense. He got lit up by Hedo and Pietrus

[JT123]

In a losing effort, while playing absolutely no defense in that series.
Kobe's defense was great throughout the whole 09 PO or 10 PO.
No defense? So was Lebron supposed to guard every 3 point shooter the Magic had or something? :wtf: I suppose you think he should have shut down Dwight Howard as well. :rolleyes:
Stop trying to act like Kobe beat the Magic all by himself. Kobe's TEAM beat the Magic, while Lebron's TEAM was unable to do the same. No sane person would suggest that Kobe played better against the Magic than Lebron did.

[NumberSix]

23 yrs.old Lebron averaged 30 ppg on 49 FG%, 7.9 rpg, 7.2 apg, and 1.1 spg, and 1.1 bpg, and he still failed to win the Maurice Podoloff Trophy.
If were strictly going by best player, LeBron would have at least 7 MVPs right now.

[SexSymbol]

This might be the most obvious alt troll account ever.
Yeah, feel free to ask a mod to check if I have multiple accounts or not. I just speak the truth.

[Lebron23]

MO - 18-4-4
West - 15-4-3
Z - 10-9
Varejao - 9-5
Yeah, sure looks like nothing of a supporting cast.
Now imagine if lebron took a little bit less shots and played more team ball with at least average defense. He got lit up by Hedo and Pietrus


He destroyed Hedo and Pietrus in that series. Big Z and Varejao failed to stop Dwight in the conference Finals.

[SexSymbol]

No defense? So was Lebron supposed to guard every 3 point shooter the Magic had or something? :wtf: I suppose you think he should have shut down Dwight Howard as well. :rolleyes:
Stop trying to act like Kobe beat the Magic all by himself. Kobe's TEAM beat the Magic, while Lebron's TEAM was unable to do the same. No sane person would suggest that Kobe played better against the Magic than Lebron did.
At least he should've held his man, who was an incredibly slow unathletic SF. That probably would've prevented a few loses, judging that games were very close in general.
And stop pretending that that team weren't made out of defense. They just followed their leader, who was playing no defense and got caught up in his own numbers, losing their greatest weapon

[NumberSix]

At least he should've held his man, who was an incredibly slow unathletic SF. That probably would've prevented a few loses, judging that games were very close in general.
And stop pretending that that team weren't made out of defense. They just followed their leader, who was playing no defense and got caught up in his own numbers, losing their greatest weapon
2 rings.

[aj1987]

What? No, you have to be a leader of the team in multiple occassions to be in the conversation for top 10.
Kobe's a leader or co-leader for 4 rings, and has another great PO run to compliment the fifth one. Sad that he couldn't deliver a great finals performance in 00 due to being intentionally injured.
Hondo's a 1 time fmvp, but he mostly played behind other greats, there's a difference between them.
You have to look at the context, whether you like it or not :cheers:
Exactly. As I said before, Shaq is the literally the only one who was robbed. You mentioned Hakeem, Jerry, Timmy, Elgin, etc. not winning MVP's, but the truth is they didn't deserve more than the ones that they got. Baylor? He was on 2(?) 50+ win teams. His competition was Wilt and Russell. etc. etc.




Please...



In 1975 back when players voted for MVP...a guy named Mike Bantom got a first place vote. Mike Bantom was the 4th leading scorer on a 32 win Suns team. Sam Lacey and Sidney wicks also got #1 votes.

I noticed this when looking into the idea that media voting is the wrong way to do it.

Im not sure it can be done in a way that wipes out or even greatly reduces issues like voters getting sick of one guy, getting swept up in stories, and all the other things we complain about.

The same questionable shit happened when the players voted. Wes Unseld won MVP over Wilt/Reed...while being factually worse....due to a team turnaround when he wasnt his teams best player. Reported to the playoffs to get swiftly swept and outplayed by Reed. hes not even an all star the following year.

Not hating on Wes...just saying. The players get swept up in the same hype the media does. The old US basketball writers MVP had the exact same results as the players every year but one...when they gave it to Wilt not Oscar. The sporting News MVP was the same as the player voted MVP all but 2 years from the 50s to the 80s...once they gave it to Nate Archibald(Led the league in scoring and assists) instead of Dave Cowens. neither gave it to Kareem...who did 30/16/5 on a 60 win team. The other year they had it different was giving it to Bernard King instead of Bird and Bernard was second in the NBA vote.

It would be the same no matter who votes damn near ever year.

Damn near ever MVP winner ever would win it no matter who voted.

[SexSymbol]

2 rings.
Not in that season.

[SexSymbol]

Exactly. As I said before, Shaq is the literally the only one who was robbed. You mentioned Hakeem, Jerry, Timmy, Elgin, etc. not winning MVP's, but the truth is they didn't deserve more than the ones that they got. Baylor? He was on 2(?) 50+ win teams. His competition was Wilt and Russell. etc. etc.
Yeah, but those players havin little or no at all means that it's not much of an evidence of greatnes, doesn't it?

[JT123]

At least he should've held his man, who was an incredibly slow unathletic SF. That probably would've prevented a few loses, judging that games were very close in general.
And stop pretending that that team weren't made out of defense. They just followed their leader, who was playing no defense and got caught up in his own numbers, losing their greatest weapon
Maybe if Lebron had two 7 footers who were both capable of shutting down Dwight he could have stayed at home on his man more often. Not every player is lucky enough to spend their entire career with the league's best front court playing behind them.:confusedshrug:

[Lebron23]

Give some credit to Paul Gasol who held his own and played a solid defense on Dwight Howard.

http://www2.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Pau%2BGasol%2BDwight%2BHoward%2BNBA%2BFinals%2BGam e%2B1%2Bfqn2yvY7dDDl.jpg

http://www1.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/NBA%2BFinals%2BGame%2B1%2BOrlando%2BMagic%2Bv%2BLo s%2BAngeles%2B0EK5F8LT2rzl.jpg

LMAO at 2nd scoring option Mo Williams who averaged 18.3 ppg on 37.1 FG%

http://blog.cleveland.com/cavs_impact/2009/01/medium_williams%20mo%20-%20action.jpg

[aj1987]

Yeah, but those players havin little or no at all means that it's not much of an evidence of greatnes, doesn't it?
Sorry, but I don't understand.


MO - 18-4-4
West - 15-4-3
Z - 10-9
Varejao - 9-5
Yeah, sure looks like nothing of a supporting cast.
Now imagine if lebron took a little bit less shots and played more team ball with at least average defense. He got lit up by Hedo and Pietrus
Mo - 51%
West - 52%
Z - 49%

Those are TS% numbers, btw.

[Gugulugu]

Of course Kobe fans would like to argue that MVPs mean nothing.

Their so called " Alpha" which I see more as "Team Cancer denying Shaq a 4-peat" has only 1 MVP and that one undeserved.

- Spatziru

[riseagainst]

Give some credit to Paul Gasol who held his own and played a solid defense on Dwight Howard.

http://www2.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Pau%2BGasol%2BDwight%2BHoward%2BNBA%2BFinals%2BGam e%2B1%2Bfqn2yvY7dDDl.jpg

http://www1.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/NBA%2BFinals%2BGame%2B1%2BOrlando%2BMagic%2Bv%2BLo s%2BAngeles%2B0EK5F8LT2rzl.jpg

LMAO at 2nd scoring option Mo Williams who averaged 18.3 ppg on 37.1 FG%

http://blog.cleveland.com/cavs_impact/2009/01/medium_williams%20mo%20-%20action.jpg


to be fair, though. It's not as hard as people think to shut down Dwight.

[SexSymbol]

Give some credit to Paul Gasol who held his own and played a solid defense on Dwight Howard.

http://www2.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Pau%2BGasol%2BDwight%2BHoward%2BNBA%2BFinals%2BGam e%2B1%2Bfqn2yvY7dDDl.jpg

http://www1.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/NBA%2BFinals%2BGame%2B1%2BOrlando%2BMagic%2Bv%2BLo s%2BAngeles%2B0EK5F8LT2rzl.jpg

LMAO at 2nd scoring option Mo Williams who averaged 18.3 ppg on 37.1 FG%

http://blog.cleveland.com/cavs_impact/2009/01/medium_williams%20mo%20-%20action.jpg

He took a lot of bail-out shots in that series, you know that.
Gasol was the best bigmen in the game that year.

[Lebron23]

to be fair, though. It's not as hard as people think to shut down Dwight.


But he played against a 34 yrs.old post injury Zydrunas Ilgauskas, and Anderson Varejao couldn't defend him in the Conference Finals. And the Orlando Magic shooters were very hot in that series. They went cold in the NBA Finals.

[SexSymbol]

Sorry, but I don't understand.


Mo - 51%
West - 52%
Z - 49%

Those are TS% numbers, btw.
To bolded - Yeah, i tried to go over the top with my english language -.- what I meant is that if those players have one or two MVPs, or none at all, doesn't it mean, that MVPs is a bad measurement of greatness?

to unbolded -
Hedo -53 %
Pietrus - 69 %
Lewis - 64 %
Those are the three players that LeBron spent a lot of time defending, btw.

[aj1987]

To bolded - Yeah, i tried to go over the top with my english language -.- what I meant is that if those players have one or two MVPs, or none at all, doesn't it mean, that MVPs is a bad measurement of greatness?
MVP's just add to the greatness. For the players who don't have an MVP, it just shows that they were on bad teams or couldn't carry their teams. Baylor, for instance. He was usually on bad teams.

Not winning an MVP doesn't mean that you're bad. Winning an MVP just shows how much better you are than the competition.


to unbolded -
Hedo -53 %
Pietrus - 69 %
Lewis - 64 %
Those are the three players that LeBron spent a lot of time defending, btw.
The Magic were incredibly hot from the 3. 41% on 25 tries a game. Cavs? 32%
They cooled down in the Finals and look what happened. If they were making their 3's like they were in the ECF, the Magic would've beat the Lakers and Dwight would be a FMVP now.

[jzek]

Finals MVP > Regular Season MVP

[MavsSuperFan]

No team in the NBA would want you
Obviously no team in the NBA would want me. I am an auditor.

You really think that bulls dynasty era Pippen was better than Cleveland (08-10) Lebron? You would really prefer to be pippen, between those 2?

[MavsSuperFan]

Finals MVP > Regular Season MVP
So having a great/fluke series is better than being the best (or at worst a top 3) player in the league that year?

Billups was better than garnett in 2004?
Dont get me wrong there are a lot of stupid things that go into the MVP award.
Eg. the media not wanting to repeatedly give it to the same guy, for some reason.

Why MJ doesnt have more MVPs and why rose beat lebron in 2011, with that said the MVP is being severely underrated here.

[Solefade]

So having a great/fluke series is better than being the best (or at worst a top 3) player in the league that year?

Billups was better than garnett in 2004?
Dont get me wrong there are a lot of stupid things that go into the MVP award.
Eg. the media not wanting to repeatedly give it to the same guy, for some reason.

Why MJ doesnt have more MVPs and why rose beat lebron in 2011, with that said the MVP is being severely underrated here.


its not being underrated, it's being severely discredited by kobetards lol

[guy]

Its really just salty Kobe fans that have a problem with the MVP. You look throughout the 50+ year history of the award and there's really only 5 or 6 that would make you look sideways i.e. someone outside of the top 3 players in the league won it. In fact, take the Nash awards out of the equation and the top 10 regular season players ever according to MVPs would look like this:

Kareem
Jordan
Russell
Lebron
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Moses
Duncan
Malone

That's actually not a crazy list for REGULAR SEASON and it makes up 37 of the 58 MVP winners we've ever had.

[Lebron23]

its not being underrated, it's being severely discredited by kobetards lol

This

What's up with that?? It wasn't Lebron's fault that he's already a 4x NBA MVP at age 29

[MichaelCorleone]

Lebron wins 4..... "MVPs are meaningless"

KD wins his first this season.... "BBBESTT PPLLAYERZZZ IN THE WORLLDZZ"

[aau]

Lebron wins 4..... "MVPs are meaningless"

KD wins his first this season.... "BBBESTT PPLLAYERZZZ IN THE WORLLDZZ"


kobe wins 5 . . . . . . . .


rings are a team accomplishment

[MichaelCorleone]

kobe wins 5 . . . . . . . .


rings are a team accomplishment
MVP is an individual award.

Kobe won 5 with 3 FMVPs going to Shaq. Different case man.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Isiah in 89 and 90
Over Jordan? Don't be an idiot.

Jordan was the only one who put in work v.s. the '89 Pistons. Not even Magic, with superior help could give the Bad Boy Pistons an L. 1990 Jordan was even better than his '89 self.


LeBron lost to a team that Kobe beat, and Kobe got 33/8/7 in the finals lol
No, the Cavs lost because Mo Williams was non existent, and the Cavs couldn't defend Dwight along with the spacing of all the streaky stretch power forwards surrounding him.

I can see someone taking Kobe in 2009, but it isn't so crystal clear like you make it sound. Obviously you have a dog in the race given your guy is Kobe. But, LeBron was definitely through 3 rounds superior to Kobe. There isn't even an argument.

So much so in fact that for me, it was more impressive than Kobe's extra round of just a good Finals. Not great.

[aau]

50 win requirement renders mvp a team accomplishment as well

[Lebron23]

50 win requirement renders mvp a team accomplishment as well


Kareem Abdul Jabbar begs to disagree. He won an MVP Award while playing on a 40 wins team.

http://www.vintagecardprices.com/pics/2154/155643.jpg

[Magic 32]

But, LeBron was definitely through 3 rounds superior to Kobe. There isn't even an argument.

So much so in fact that for me, it was more impressive than Kobe's extra round of just a good Finals. Not great.

But look at Lebron’s competition.

Even the ECF was a sorry sight, considering that magnificent play of the Celtics before KG's injury.

These teams had no business in the NBA finals.

The most impressive series by any player that entire 2009 playoffs, was Kobe against the Denver Nuggets.

Excellent stats, great clutch play and he got his teammates involved (both during the game and down the stretch).

Lebron had played the role of Magic during the first two rounds, then he wanted to be MJ, and his team collapsed. Look at the amount of shots he took in that series, compared with the Atlanta and Detrot series.

[aau]

Kareem Abdul Jabbar begs to disagree. He won an MVP Award while playing on a 40 wins team.

http://www.vintagecardprices.com/pics/2154/155643.jpg

name another

mvp = best player on a top team

he may be best in league

maybe not

[SamuraiSWISH]

But look at Lebron’s competition.
The west wasn't great in 2009, the Lakers had no right struggling against a Yao less Rockets team being lead by Ron Artest. The Nuggets were probably the 3rd best team, that was a legit series. Kobe was nice that round. But LeBron individually clearly played superior against the Magic than Kobe did the next series in the Finals.

[aau]

Kareem Abdul Jabbar begs to disagree. He won an MVP Award while playing on a 40 wins team.

http://www.vintagecardprices.com/pics/2154/155643.jpg


actually

this represents how the award should be given

to the absolute best player in the league

[Magic 32]

The west wasn't great in 2009, the Lakers had no right struggling against a Yao less Rockets team being lead by Ron Artest. The Nuggets were probably the 3rd best team, that was a legit series. Kobe was nice that round. But LeBron individually clearly played superior against the Magic than Kobe did the next series in the Finals.

The Rockets had speed at the point, great defense, and decent backups at the frontcourt positions.

The Celtics had 3 series like that in 2008, but no one calls them weak or overrated.

I really don't see why the West was weak that year. Nuggets would have beat both Magic and Cavs IMO.

[Lebron23]

The west wasn't great in 2009, the Lakers had no right struggling against a Yao less Rockets team being lead by Ron Artest. The Nuggets were probably the 3rd best team, that was a legit series. Kobe was nice that round. But LeBron individually clearly played superior against the Magic than Kobe did the next series in the Finals.


This

[Magic 32]

Somehow this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70AUcQ3PzQ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPT6QxoxEZg

is more impressive than this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ug-5iOVGHs0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wUebv6ATh8

:confusedshrug:

Better shooting, better clutch play, better opponent.

Slightly less impressive all-around stats (not play).

[knicksman]

if you have wilt winning 4, kareem 6, robertson 1, lebron 4 then you know its a joke

[Dresta]

All human award systems are heavily flawed, and frequently won by people who don't deserve them. It's why awards in general are stupid.

[SexSymbol]

Over Jordan? Don't be an idiot.

Jordan was the only one who put in work v.s. the '89 Pistons. Not even Magic, with superior help could give the Bad Boy Pistons an L. 1990 Jordan was even better than his '89 self.


No, the Cavs lost because Mo Williams was non existent, and the Cavs couldn't defend Dwight along with the spacing of all the streaky stretch power forwards surrounding him.

I can see someone taking Kobe in 2009, but it isn't so crystal clear like you make it sound. Obviously you have a dog in the race given your guy is Kobe. But, LeBron was definitely through 3 rounds superior to Kobe. There isn't even an argument.

So much so in fact that for me, it was more impressive than Kobe's extra round of just a good Finals. Not great.
Yeah, over Jordan. Didn't Isiah have 27-9-something like that finals in one of those years? So at least in that year, he was better than Jordan in the PO.

[SexSymbol]

The west wasn't great in 2009, the Lakers had no right struggling against a Yao less Rockets team being lead by Ron Artest. The Nuggets were probably the 3rd best team, that was a legit series. Kobe was nice that round. But LeBron individually clearly played superior against the Magic than Kobe did the next series in the Finals.
Not really, Kobe played great all around with way superior defense and being more clutch on a bigger stage.
It's sad that a MJ stan is judging players by statistics and not counting defense

[moe94]

Kobe fans should be happy with the one MVP Kobe has. Everyone knows he only got it as a lifetime achievement award.
http://dmv.barstoolsports.com/files/2013/12/woah1.gif

Literally the 4th most deserving that year, too. :biggums:

[Magic 32]

Literally the 4th most deserving that year, too. :biggums:

Give me one good reason why?

[SamuraiSWISH]

It's sad that a MJ stan is judging players by statistics and not counting defense
Way superior defense? He was guarding a rookie Courtney Lee who can't play offense to begin with.

Except LeBron wasn't bad on defense. Not enough of a difference to compensate for the gap in production between LeBron and Kobe. LeBron basically averaged 40 ppg that series.

Kobe scored volume, but on less than stellar percentages v.s. the Magic. He had a great game 1, and then a pretty good game 5.

[SexSymbol]

Way superior defense? He was guarding a rookie Courtney Lee who can't play offense to begin with.

Except LeBron wasn't bad on defense. Not enough of a difference to compensate for the gap in production between LeBron and Kobe. LeBron basically averaged 40 ppg that series.

Kobe scored volume, but on less than stellar percentages v.s. the Magic. He had a great game 1, and then a pretty good game 5.
He was horrific on defense in that series, wtf are you talking about. Beyond terrible.
Kobe also defended Pietrus, and he lit LeBron 1x1 when Bron was on him.
Way superior defense throughout the play-offs for Kobe, and the year as a whole

[aj1987]

He was horrific on defense in that series, wtf are you talking about. Beyond terrible.
Kobe also defended Pietrus, and he lit LeBron 1x1 when Bron was on him.
Way superior defense throughout the play-offs for Kobe, and the year as a whole
Are you actually being serious? LeBron wasn't elite defensively, but he was pretty good.

[aau]

The west wasn't great in 2009.


hahaha

make up swish much

east had 5 teams over .500
west had 6 losing teams total

kobe faced more 50 win teams in the playoffs
than the east had in their entire conference

phx went 46-36 and missed the postseason
atl went 47-35 and got the 4th seed

.

lebron sweeping thru:

- stuckey and rip < kobe ripping the 48-34 jazz in 5 with
boozer 20/13 , deron 20/10 , milsap and kirilenko

- josh and jo-jo < kobe being taken to 7 by 53-29 rocket team
without yao after game 3 , with metta battier and brooks
that team played out of their minds u obv didn't watch

.

finally faced with quality competition in the ecf , he tried to
turn it up but forgot about his teammates . . got ran in 6
- by a team that kobe damn near swept - after taking
twice as many shots that he had in the previous two
series that lead to just 2-3 more buckets a game

154 fga and 94 fta n 6 games ,,,, or 26 spg and 16 fts

that's 40+ shots to average 38


<

[aj1987]

hahaha

make up swish much

east had 5 teams over .500
west had 6 losing teams total

kobe faced more 50 win teams in the playoffs
than the east had in their entire conference

phx went 46-36 and missed the postseason
atl went 47-35 and got the 4th seed

.

lebron sweeping thru:

- stuckey and rip < kobe ripping the 48-34 jazz in 5 with
boozer 20/13 , deron 20/10 , milsap and kirilenko

- josh and jo-jo < kobe being taken to 7 by 53-29 rocket team
without yao after game 3 , with metta battier and brooks
that team played out of their minds u obv didn't watch

.

finally faced with quality competition in the ecf , he tried to
turn it up but forgot about his teammates . . got ran in 6
- by a team that kobe damn near swept - after taking
twice as many shots that he had in the previous two
series that lead to just 2-3 more buckets a game

154 fga and 94 fta n 6 games ,,,, or 26 spg and 16 fts

that's 40+ shots to average 38


<
Did you just add up FGA's and FTA's to determine LeBron's possessions? :facepalm

Since you seem to be under the age of 10, I'll make is real simple for you.

You get 2 FT's for a play that you were fouled on, if the ball doesn't go it. That should be counted as ONE shot. Also, there's the fact that you get a FT if you get fouled on a play and the FG is good. That's just a bonus.

According to your logic, Kobe took 36 shots a game to score 32.

[aau]

Did you just add up FGA's and FTA's to determine LeBron's possessions? :facepalm

Since you seem to be under the age of 10, I'll make is real simple for you.

You get 2 FT's for a play that you were fouled on, if the ball doesn't go it. That should be counted as ONE shot. Also, there's the fact that you get a FT if you get fouled on a play and the FG is good. That's just a bonus.

According to your logic, Kobe took 36 shots a game to score 32.


doesn't matter , , , it's not 40

besides he got ran with his

32 pts and 7 assists record finals

>

[aj1987]

doesn't matter , , , it's not 40

besides he got ran with his

32 pts and 7 assists record finals

>
Kobe's 2nd best player averaged 19/9 on 65% TS (Mo - 18/4/4 on 50% TS). If LeBron had that kind of production from his sidekick, the Cavs would've met the Lakers in the Finals.

[aau]

If

haha







y'all kno

[aj1987]

haha







y'all kno
What are you laughing at? He got that kind of production from his team and he won 2 in a row.