Better team: Rockets with Harden or Rockets with Afflalo?

[russwest0]

Title.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3187/arron-afflalo

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3992/james-harden

[oarabbus]

Well, Harden averages ~4 more points than Afflalo. Let's say Afflalo is only putting up 20ppg because his team isn't very good, and he'd only put up 17ppg on the Rockets. That puts Harden at ~7ppg over Afflalo.

However, Harden is one of the worst defenders ever (gives up at least 10 points singlehandedly) while Afflalo is a great plus defender so w/Afflalo they'd be much better. Plus the ball wouldn't get sticky.

[Smook A.]

Haven't seen Afflalo's defense. Is It good?

[russwest0]

Haven't seen Afflalo's defense. Is It good?

Yes. He's one of the best SG's in the league on defense.

[Fallen Angel]

:roll:

[TMT]

Big Magic guy here, but I'd have to go with Harden.

[russwest0]

Well, Harden averages ~4 more points than Afflalo. Let's say Afflalo is only putting up 20ppg because his team isn't very good, and he'd only put up 17ppg on the Rockets. That puts Harden at ~7ppg over Afflalo.

However, Harden is one of the worst defenders ever (gives up at least 10 points singlehandedly) while Afflalo is a great plus defender so w/Afflalo they'd be much better. Plus the ball wouldn't get sticky.

Also have to consider that Afflalo is shooting 10% better from 3pt land and 3% better from the field.

[disel]

Also have to consider that Afflalo is shooting 10% better from 3pt land and 3% better from the field.
Only a fuking idiot and a laughing stock like the DUMBASS OP would choose Affalo.

[Phantom_Blue]

Well if they had afflalo, they'd probly be able to upgrade at another position as well, maybe a stretch 4 for Dwight. That actually sounds more dangerous, than relying on Harden's decision making to win or lose you the game.

Honestly, I don't think we'll ever see Harden's true potential under McHale or that offense they run where he has free reign to ISO whenever he wants.

[ABfor3]

This. Dude trys too hard to get noticed.
This.

[rezznor]

It's a german word you slanted eyed ch$nk. BTW,Keep replying to yourself as well with you're multipale id's..
well that escalated quickly...

[oh the horror]

It's a german word you slanted eyed ch$nk. BTW,Keep replying to yourself as well with you're multipale id's..


Germans still going for glory I see.

[rip2]

It's a german word you slanted eyed ch$nk. BTW,Keep replying to yourself as well with you're multipale id's..
:roll: :roll: :roll:

wow.. this post is just.. :lol

[RightToCensor]

Some posts just fot deleted.


Dude trys too hard to get noticed. This is a dumb q, and obvious agenda thread

[oarabbus]

well that escalated quickly...

Yeah that was his response to me after I called him out for spelling his name "disel" after he called someone else a dumbass... yeah the best part is...

1. I'm not Asian, dunno why he called me that
2. Not an alt, don't have any alts
3. "Diesel" is still "Diesel" in german, that guy's a fvcking moron :roll:

[KungFuJoe]

Rockets would be better with this guy:

http://i.imgur.com/oGxYfLh.gif

[Lakers_Kobe_Fan]

Title.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3187/arron-afflalo

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3992/james-harden

Harden took scrubs to Playoffs in the tough west last year.....

Arron Afflalo's team has 2nd last record in the Dleague Eastern conference

make your own interpretation

[KungFuJoe]

Harden took scrubs to Playoffs in the tough west last year.....

Arron Afflalo's team has 2nd last record in the Dleague Eastern conference

make your own interpretation

Yeah, because Asik, Lin, Parsons, Delfino, Smith, Patterson (for the first half) are all scrubs. :facepalm

[Fallen Angel]

Yeah, because Asik, Lin, Parsons, Delfino, Smith, Patterson (for the first half) are all scrubs. :facepalm

They are not scrubs obviously. I think you are missing the point. What that poster is getting at is that Harden has proven he can win games for you. He was the leader of that team last year, led them to their first playoff birth since the Yao-Tracy era. They were the youngest team in the league last year and heavily inexperienced. To say Harden/Houston didn't overachieve last season is revisionist history.

ESPN predicted Harden and the Rockets to be one of the worst teams in the league. Asik was unproven, remember he was a backup behind Noah in Chicago. Parsons was in his 2nd year? He wasn't the player he is today. Nobody outside of Houston knew who he was. The Rockets also didn't have a power forward. Smith? :oldlol: How many teams would trade their starting power forward for Smith?

Harden had to work with that and made it happen. To even consider a Harden for Afflalo trade is absolutely laughable.

[russwest0]

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

he barely took a decent supporting cast to the 8th seed.

Arron Afflalo is on a team that is following the OKC model and TRYING TO LOSE right now

[oarabbus]

They are not scrubs obviously. I think you are missing the point. What that poster is getting at is that Harden has proven he can win games for you. He was the leader of that team last year, led them to their first playoff birth since the Yao-Tracy era. They were the youngest team in the league last year and heavily inexperienced. To say Harden/Houston didn't overachieve last season is revisionist history.

ESPN predicted Harden and the Rockets to be one of the worst teams in the league. Asik was unproven, remember he was a backup behind Noah in Chicago. Parsons was in his 2nd year? He wasn't the player he is today. Nobody outside of Houston knew who he was. The Rockets also didn't have a power forward. Smith? :oldlol: How many teams would trade their starting power forward for Smith?

Harden had to work with that and made it happen. To even consider a Harden for Afflalo trade is absolutely laughable.

It obviously wouldn't be Harden for Afflalo straight up, that's a joke. It'd be something like Harden for Afflalo + picks.

Either way, Rockets were the 8th seed last year. Without Asik, that team is a lottery team, they were 8th seed and had others (Mavs + others I think) close behind them. There is absolutely NO argument to be made that Harden "carried" them to the playoffs. It's more likely that they would have made the playoffs with Kevin Martin instead of Harden and keeping Asik, than with Harden and without Asik. And when I say more likely, I mean that the chance of that team (minus Asik) making the playoffs is exactly 0. And for the record, Lin has also proven he can win games for you. He already has multiple game winning shots this season (again, not saying he is better than Harden).

Also Harden has developed a nasty habit of not showing up for big games this season - check their losses to the Clippers, Pacers, and OKC. Harden played like a role player, actually he played worse since he had 5+ TOs in some of those games on like 3-17 shooting. Seriously.

edit: Let's not forget that in addition to shooting under 30% in those games, he also allowed Redick/Stephenson/whoever he guarded to go off.

[Fallen Angel]

It obviously wouldn't be Harden for Afflalo straight up, that's a joke. It'd be something like Harden for Afflalo + picks.

Even so. This is a ridiculous trade proposal. No smart GM is going to trade Harden for Afflalo and picks.


Either way, Rockets were the 8th seed last year. Without Asik, that team is a lottery team, they were 8th seed and had others (Mavs + others I think) close behind them.

Asik was an important player for the Rockets. He's a damn good center, protects the rim and is one of the top rebounders in the NBA. I'm not underrating him, I know how important he was for the Rockets. Without him, I can guarantee you Houston doesn't make the playoffs. Lottery team? I'm not sure.

As for Houston barely making the playoffs. That shouldn't a knock on them. Making the playoffs even as an eight seed is an accomplishment. They won like 44 games in West, that's not an easy thing to do. Houston was never in danger of missing the playoffs. In fact, with 2 games left in the season they were still playing to take the 6th seed away from the Warriors.



There is absolutely NO argument to be made that Harden "carried" them to the playoffs. It's more likely that they would have made the playoffs with Kevin Martin instead of Harden and keeping Asik, than with Harden and without Asik. And when I say more likely, I mean that the chance of that team (minus Asik) making the playoffs is exactly 0.

That may be a bit convoluted but Asik was absolutely huge for that team.

I think you need to take a step back and be objective about this. Asik isn't a throw in player. He is a top 4 defensive center in my eyes so is not like I'm underrating him. But to say there's no case or argument to be made that Harden carried that team is again, revisionist history. Not to sound redundant but again, before the season started ESPN ranked Houston almost last, lottery bound.

You can speculate how Houston probably still makes the playoffs without Harden, but that's pure speculation. Houston had Martin the year before and missed the playoffs. They didn't have Asik, but they had Dalembert. Luis Scola was the PF and Dragic/Lowry were the point guards; yet they still missed the playoffs. So Houston upgraded the center position but downgraded at the PF and PG positions. And IMO, if Harden is replaced by Martin that team doesn't make the playoffs.

Sure Asik was important, but Harden was the one who carried that team, he was the leader. To be honest, this is the first I hear of Harden not being the leader of that team. Not sure where this is coming from actually.


Also Harden has developed a nasty habit of not showing up for big games this season - check their losses to the Clippers, Pacers, and OKC. Harden played like a role player, actually he played worse since he had 5+ TOs in some of those games on like 3-17 shooting. Seriously.

edit: Let's not forget that in addition to shooting under 30% in those games, he also allowed Redick/Stephenson/whoever he guarded to go off.

Yeah. Harden's also won a lot of games for Houston. He needs to show up when it matters, that's why he gets paid the big bucks.

[Jameerthefear]

Magic don't want Harden.

[KungFuJoe]

They are not scrubs obviously. I think you are missing the point. What that poster is getting at is that Harden has proven he can win games for you. He was the leader of that team last year, led them to their first playoff birth since the Yao-Tracy era. They were the youngest team in the league last year and heavily inexperienced. To say Harden/Houston didn't overachieve last season is revisionist history.

ESPN predicted Harden and the Rockets to be one of the worst teams in the league. Asik was unproven, remember he was a backup behind Noah in Chicago. Parsons was in his 2nd year? He wasn't the player he is today. Nobody outside of Houston knew who he was. The Rockets also didn't have a power forward. Smith? :oldlol: How many teams would trade their starting power forward for Smith?

Harden had to work with that and made it happen. To even consider a Harden for Afflalo trade is absolutely laughable.

He didn't lead them to jack. They were the 9th seed the year before...they were the 8th seed (and barely) the year with Harden.

[Fallen Angel]

He didn't lead them to jack. They were the 9th seed the year before...they were the 8th seed (and barely) the year with Harden.

They didn't "barely" make the playoffs. They were never in danger of missing the playoffs. Houston finished last because they had a string of bad games towards the end of the season.

They didn't slide to to the 8th seed until the end of the season after losing to the Lakers in an OT thriller. Again, with two games left Houston was still playing for.that 6th seed.

They were 9th place the year before. What relevance does this have? You understand those were two completely different teams, right?

Every player the Rockets had was traded or let go. Parsons was the only one Houston decided to keep.

[Phantom_Blue]

They didn't "barely" make the playoffs. They were never in danger of missing the playoffs. Houston finished last because they had a string of bad games towards the end of the season.

They didn't slide to to the 8th seed until the end of the season after losing to the Lakers in an OT thriller. Again, with two games left Houston was still playing for.that 6th seed.

They were 9th place the year before. What relevance does this have? You understand those were two completely different teams, right?

Every player the Rockets had was traded or let go. Parsons was the only one Houston decided to keep.

It's also not proven that absolutely "needed" him to make the playoffs since he barely missed any games. The few games he did miss though, Rockets played very well as a team on both ends of he floor.

I'd also say Asik had as much to do with them making the playoffs as Harden did. You take Asik off that team, and you probably lose 10 or more games.

[Meticode]

To be honest, if the Rockets played Harden with Afflalo they'd be a better overall team. Harden kills the ball movement one too many times and plays awful defense. Parsons has improved this season to the point he could be a legit second option behind Howard. Afflalo and Parsons are on the fence of that right now.

[ABfor3]

It's also not proven that absolutely "needed" him to make the playoffs since he barely missed any games. The few games he did miss though, Rockets played very well as a team on both ends of he floor.

I'd also say Asik had as much to do with them making the playoffs as Harden did. You take Asik off that team, and you probably lose 10 or more games.
Considering how he made up 30 percent of their play usage, meaning most of all their points were made by him or started by him means they did need him... Obvious agenda thread by a salty Thunder fan. You can say what you want about Harden but the dude is proven to everyone he can lead a team to playoffs, also they didn't barely make the playoffs they were sitting pretty at the 6th seed in the tough western conference before losing key games in the final stretch.

[Phantom_Blue]

Considering how he made up 30 percent of their play usage, meaning most of all their points were made by him or started by him means they did need him... Obvious agenda thread by a salty Thunder fan. You can say what you want about Harden but the dude is proven to everyone he can lead a team to playoffs, also they didn't barely make the playoffs they were sitting pretty at the 6th seed in the tough western conference before losing key games in the final stretch.

It still cant be proven either way. I mean he dominates the ball when he plays, of course his usage would be high. But the team didn't look utterly lost when he was gone either, in fact they played better as a "team".

Which is why I think they underachieved last year because McHale couldn't control Harden. If Harden plays within the team concept a little more, maybe their the 4th or 5th seed.

My whole deal is that Harden got all the credit for getting them to the playoffs, when that team was never shown to be "bad" without him. It's just assumptions.

[ABfor3]

It still cant be proven either way. I mean he dominates the ball when he plays, of course his usage would be high. But the team didn't look utterly lost when he was gone either, in fact they played better as a "team".

Which is why I think they underachieved last year because McHale couldn't control Harden. If Harden plays within the team concept a little more, maybe their the 4th or 5th seed.

My whole deal is that Harden got all the credit for getting them to the playoffs, when that team was never shown to be "bad" without him. It's just assumptions.
Oh okay, I see what you're saying now. I've been saying the same thing in other rockets threads, he plays too much ISO ball and when he gets the ball moving the Rockets are so much more better because they do have talent around Harden and howard. McHale needs to run plays for harden let him run through more screens , because he's done that a few times already and everytime he has, it's been highly effective

[no pun intended]

Afflalo

because Harden doesn't run sets, as Parsons said

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-c9dClaPKgk

Ignorant bastard

[el_locoteee]

Afflalo

because Harden doesn't run sets, as Parsons said

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-c9dClaPKgk

Ignorant bastard

Actually that's a set play and harden suppose be in the corner and another shooter in another corner and is a play for Parso to shoot a 3 but he decided to pumpfake and drive then the entire play broke down.

Here is the play

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY59It4FUwY

Here is the same play

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paVKOzigz9U

[Fallen Angel]

Which is why I think they underachieved last year because McHale couldn't control Harden. If Harden plays within the team concept a little more, maybe their the 4th or 5th seed.

Haha, no. You are out of your mind man. :oldlol: Houston could have had Phil Jackson as coach and they still don't get the 4th or 5th seed. LA and Memphis had the 5th best record in the league. Clippers and Memphis were tied with 56 wins, Houston finished with 45. That's an 11 game difference.

Houston overachieved. That team was lottery bound and still in a rebuilding stage. Coming into the season nobody predicted Houston making the playoffs. The main reason why they were able to make the playoffs is because of Harden.


My whole deal is that Harden got all the credit for getting them to the playoffs, when that team was never shown to be "bad" without him. It's just assumptions.

Harden got most of the credit because
1) He deserved it. The team as whole stepped up of course, but ultimately Harden was the one leading that team. Not Asik, not Parsons.
2) He's the star player for Houston. When Houston loses in the playoffs everyone will look at Harden and Howard, because they're the leaders of this team. Houston losing in 6 to OKC last year is on Harden, not Lin Asik or Parsons.

I get your point, there's no evidence proving that team is a failure without Harden because he didn't miss that many games. By the same token, there's almost 82 games worth of data proving Harden is capable of leading his team to the playoffs. That's not an assumption or speculation, that's fact. What is an assumption is saying Harden held the team back, because there's not nearly enough evidence to support that statement.

Really, what exactly are you arguing here? You said there's no evidence proving Houston is a lottery team without Harden. What is your point? That Harden held the team back, they're better off without him? Or are you saying last year's Houston team could of made the playoffs even without Harden? Regardless, the Harden criticism is pure speculation and that's your opinion and I respect that. But that's where it ends, it's an opinion. Harden missed 4 games total last year, a 4 game sample size isn't nearly big enough for us to come up with a solid conclusion.

[I.R.Beast]

Well, Harden averages ~4 more points than Afflalo. Let's say Afflalo is only putting up 20ppg because his team isn't very good, and he'd only put up 17ppg on the Rockets. That puts Harden at ~7ppg over Afflalo.

However, Harden is one of the worst defenders ever (gives up at least 10 points singlehandedly) while Afflalo is a great plus defender so w/Afflalo they'd be much better. Plus the ball wouldn't get sticky.

what does Afflalo's team being bad have to do with anything?...

[Magic731]

Better question is are the Rockets better with Andrew Bogut instead of Dwight Howard?

[el_locoteee]

Better question is are the Rockets better with Andrew Bogut instead of Dwight Howard?

Lol we have a guy name Asik who give you same of better performance, but hi is butthurt so a better question is can we trade for Bogut for Asik.

[oarabbus]

what does Afflalo's team being bad have to do with anything?...

I've stated that argument before and people have jumped on me saying "He's only averaging 20ppg because he's on a bad team he wouldn't be averaging that on a good one" so I made it conservative to 17ppg.



Lol we have a guy name Asik who give you same of better performance, but hi is butthurt so a better question is can we trade for Bogut for Asik.


I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. Asik isn't "considerably better" than a healthy Bogut or anything. They are both great defenders. Bogut gets the edge in shotblocking and gritty/mean play while Asik is more mobile.