How good would the Rockets be right now, if they kept Dragic over Lin?

[JGXEN]

Question as above. Dragic, Harden, Dwight = WCF bound?

[oarabbus]

How good is Dragic when he doesn't play point and is reduced to a spot up shooter? So marginally better than they are now with Lin. Honestly Harden needs a Derek Fisher at point, not a Goran Dragic.

[brantonli]

Problem with resigning Dragic was at hath tat he he wanted a player option (eve though I don't think Phoenix gave him one in the end), but the player option would've have messed up the Rockets free agent plans.

[imnew09]

LOL. Not good when Harden dominates the ball all the time...

[SexSymbol]

Problem is dwight, when you have a scrub center, and he's the center of your offense, yeah, you're ****ed for years to come.

[Smook A.]

Problem is dwight, when you have a scrub center, and he's the center of your offense, yeah, you're ****ed for years to come.
You sound like you just started watching basketball today. Houston has improved a ton from last year. You're an idiot. Euroleague is for you

[SexSymbol]

You sound like you just started watching basketball today. Houston has improved a ton from last year. You're an idiot. Euroleague is for you
Great counter-arguments, my friend.
Dwight is an offensive scrub, and his defense is getting worse every year.
Besides that he is cancer in the locker room to anybody who wants to win. As there's not much of those guys on the Rockets, it's good for now, but it's just a calm before the storm

[Smook A.]

Great counter-arguments, my friend.
Dwight is an offensive scrub, and his defense is getting worse every year.
Besides that he is cancer in the locker room to anybody who wants to win. As there's not much of those guys on the Rockets, it's good for now, but it's just a calm before the storm
So it's all about the post moves huh? He's a valuable guy on the Rockets because of his athletic ability. He can easily dunk over you once he gets 2-3 away from the rim. He can also catch lobs. Dwight also rebounds great and if actually watch the Rockets games he plays solid defense. With almost no roster change besides getting Dwight, why have the Rockets improved by so much? Hmmmm lemme think

[Phantom_Blue]

Not a good fit, better to get a 3/D player at the point and SF.

[blackification]

How good is Dragic when he doesn't play point and is reduced to a spot up shooter? So marginally better than they are now with Lin. Honestly Harden needs a Derek Fisher at point, not a Goran Dragic.
He played off ball at the SG position when bledsoe wasn't injured and was still doing his thing.

[Phantom_Blue]

He played off ball at the SG position when bledsoe wasn't injured and was still doing his thing.

Was he playing like a spotup SG, or just sharing ball handling duties with Bledsoe, similar to how he played with Lowry.

Harden "dominates" the ball, and if its not him, they're throwing the ball to Dwight in the post. It would be a waste of his skillset for him to play in this current Houston offense.

[rip2]

Dragic will just bring the ball up, toss it to Harden, and wait in the corner. How good will he be?

[blackification]

Was he playing like a spotup SG, or just sharing ball handling duties with Bledsoe, similar to how he played with Lowry.

Harden "dominates" the ball, and if its not him, they're throwing the ball to Dwight in the post. It would be a waste of his skillset for him to play in this current Houston offense.
Well our coach isn't an idiot like McHale so he put bledsoe as the main ball handler because dragic is the better shooter and better at moving around without the ball. But it was a mix of both I would say. I don't really know how he played with lowry to be honest but dragic didn't create a lot for others when bledsoe was on the floor he was always looking to make a basket for himself. Most of his playmaking came when bledsoe sat and Hornacek liked to have one of them on the floor at all times almost.

I think dragic is too good at creating for himself and driving to the basket to ever just turn into a spot up shooter.

But that could also be a factor of the coach and how he spaces the offense. Its hard to tell how dragic would do but I don't think I could say he would be just a spot up shooter.

[UK2K]

Problem is dwight, when you have a scrub center, and he's the center of your offense, yeah, you're ****ed for years to come.

One of the best starts in Rockets history.

Yes in their franchise history.

Totally ****ed for years.

Someone is real, real salty, especially since he goes out of his way to bring him up.

[Godzuki]

Lin is a really good complementary player so its hard to say.

I think they'd have been pretty sick tho with attack style basketball since Harden and Dragic are some of the best opportunistic drivers in the league. and contrary to what some people say Harden isn't really a ball hog, at least this year, so i'm sure he'd let Dragic do his thing.

[christian1923]

So it's all about the post moves huh? He's a valuable guy on the Rockets because of his athletic ability. He can easily dunk over you once he gets 2-3 away from the rim. He can also catch lobs. Dwight also rebounds great and if actually watch the Rockets games he plays solid defense. With almost no roster change besides getting Dwight, why have the Rockets improved by so much? Hmmmm lemme think
Sounds like Tyson chandler and deandre jordan

[ronnymac]

Dragic is an borderline allstar. He would have been the great 3rd option we needed. But history is history and we need to move on.

[Mr Exlax]

How would Dragic actually be used though? I would imagine we'd have him coming off the bench and being our 6th man since he's not a better defender than Bev.

[branslowski]

I hate threads like this and threads like "Replace player A with player B blah blah", because you already give away your ignorance in understanding how different systems, team chemistry, and coaching benefits a players abilities and confidence. Even If Rockets kept him, he may not be the player he is now.

[Levity]

Dragic is a very much improved 3 pt shooter this year. so if harden did just dominate the ball, dragic would still be valuable, as evident when bledsoe was on the floor and in one of those moods (bledsoe is extremely ball dominant at times)

Dragic is also a better defender than lin. and at this point im speculating, but mcchale loved dragic, so it wouldnt be shocking to see mcchale giving him more ball handling duties than lin is given. hed fit extremely will on a team full of good shooters

[NumberSix]

Lin is pretty shitty IMO.

[Fallen Angel]

One of the best starts in Rockets history.

Yes in their franchise history.

Totally ****ed for years.

Someone is real, real salty, especially since he goes out of his way to bring him up.

True. The Rockets got off to a good start. For the first half of the season, they posted their 3rd best record in franchise history. Something Yao and Tracy never did. How they perform in the 2nd half of the season is another story. I suppose once they get all their guys healthy and start developing more chemistry they will get better.

As for the OP, having Dragic would've definitely been an upgrade over Lin and Beverley. He probably doesn't average the same numbers but his defense plus offensive prowess would make it easier for everybody else. Looking at his offensive skill set it's silly to think he'd be relegated to being a spot up shooter even under a limited offensive system like McHale's.

[Mr Exlax]

True. The Rockets got off to a good start. For the first half of the season, they posted their 3rd best record in franchise history. Something Yao and Tracy never did. How they perform in the 2nd half of the season is another story. I suppose once they get all their guys healthy and start developing more chemistry they will get better.

As for the OP, having Dragic would've definitely been an upgrade over Lin and Beverley. He probably doesn't average the same numbers but his defense plus offensive prowess would make it easier for everybody else. Looking at his offensive skill set it's silly to think he'd be relegated to being a spot up shooter even under a limited offensive system like McHale's.

I still think the ball would get stuck in Harden's hands. I don't hate any player on my team, but I honestly don't know how different Dragic would get to play than Lin. He sure as hell isn't gonna make Harden give it up. Get us a different coach and all this shit gets fixed I swear.

[All Net]

They choose Lin over Lowry too who is having a great season.

[Levity]

I still think the ball would get stuck in Harden's hands. I don't hate any player on my team, but I honestly don't know how different Dragic would get to play than Lin. He sure as hell isn't gonna make Harden give it up. Get us a different coach and all this shit gets fixed I swear.

wasnt mcchale a huge dragic supporter his last season with the team? he even chose to give dragic more ball handling responsibility than lowry when he came back from the infection, and thats where all the talk about lowry and mcchale butting heads came from.

so pure speculation, but i could see mcchale giving dragic a near 50/50 shared duty with harden. and harden focusing more on his scoring.

[Levity]

They choose Lin over Lowry too who is having a great season.

yeah its absolutely crazy, in my opinion. because both lowry and dragic had breakout seasons that year, and could have kept them on the team for cheap contracts.

[All Net]

yeah its absolutely crazy, in my opinion. because both lowry and dragic had breakout seasons that year, and could have kept them on the team for cheap contracts.

Amazing how the Rockets had both at the same time :eek:

[oarabbus]

They choose Lin over Lowry too who is having a great season.

Nah, they didn't choose Lin over Lowry. Lowry wanted out of Houston and to get away from that **** coach McHale. Kind of disingenuous to state that they "chose" Lin over him.

And Lowry is averaging 17/6.5 as the starting PG in Toronto? Switch Lin straight up for Lowry and Lin can produce very, very similar numbers. He's already shown that he can and has already done it when he is allowed to play starting PG.

[Fallen Angel]

I still think the ball would get stuck in Harden's hands. I don't hate any player on my team, but I honestly don't know how different Dragic would get to play than Lin. He sure as hell isn't gonna make Harden give it up. Get us a different coach and all this shit gets fixed I swear.

When Dragic was given starting point guard duties he performed well, some may say even better than the way Lowry was playing better that year. He's proven, more seasoned. To get to the point, we all know Dragic is the better player between him and Lin. McHale knows that, heck he chose to keep him as the starting PG over Lowry, that's saying something.

McHale isn't high on Harden sharing the ball that much because the two current point guards aren't quality. Dragic is quality, he's a beast. Beverley? One of the most limited point guards in the league offensively speaking. Lin? So far he's been inconsistent. His off the ball movement is pretty bad too.

Dragic and Lin aren't on the same level really.

@ All Net:

They didn't choose Lin over Dragic. Lowery didn't want to be a back up in Houston so he was traded, and the pick the Rockets got from Toronto was used in the Harden deal. So everything turned out OK.

[All Net]

Nah, they didn't choose Lin over Lowry. Lowry wanted out of Houston and to get away from that **** coach McHale. Kind of disingenuous to state that they "chose" Lin over him.

And Lowry is averaging 17/6.5 as the starting PG in Toronto? Switch Lin straight up for Lowry and Lin can produce very, very similar numbers. He's already shown that he can and has already done it when he is allowed to play starting PG.

I see, I wasn't aware he wanted out of Houston.

[All Net]

When Dragic was given starting point guard duties he performed well, some may say even better than the way Lowry was playing better that year. He's proven, more seasoned. To get to the point, we all know Dragic is the better player between him and Lin. McHale knows that, heck he chose to keep him as the starting over Lowry, that's saying something.

McHale isn't high on Harden sharing the ball that much because the two current point guards aren't quality. Dragic is quality, he's a beast. Beverley? One of the most limited point guards in the league offensively speaking. Lin? So far he's been inconsistent. His off the ball movement is pretty bad too.

Dragic and Lin aren't on the same level really.

@ All Net:

They didn't choose Lin over Dragic. Lowery didn't want to be a back up in Houston so he was traded, and the pick the Rockets got from Toronto was used in the Harden deal. So everything turned out OK.

Yeah I wasn't aware he wanted out to be honest.

[oarabbus]

^ Ah for sure. Sorry, didnt mean to accuse you of being disingenuous, just assumed you knew. You know what they say about assuming :lol I won't be holier-than-thou about it next time.

Anyway, Dragic and Lowry are having better seasons, but I don't think the gap is nearly as big as the stats suggest. Yes, I do think Dragic and Lowry are better right now, but not massively so. Golden age of point guards and what not.


edit: All that being said, I think the Rockets would be considerably better with Lowry as opposed to Lin. Lowry would still be reduced to a spot up shooter next to Harden, but he has shown he has a nicer 3 ball than Lin, and his defense is much tougher. He's basically a superior Patrick Beverley with playmaking ability (not that it will be used).

How's Dragic's defense?

[Fallen Angel]

Nah, they didn't choose Lin over Lowry. Lowry wanted out of Houston and to get away from that **** coach McHale. Kind of disingenuous to state that they "chose" Lin over him.

And Lowry is averaging 17/6.5 as the starting PG in Toronto? Switch Lin straight up for Lowry and Lin can produce very, very similar numbers. He's already shown that he can and has already done it when he is allowed to play starting PG.

I don't doubt Lin can produce similar numbers if given the green light. But at what expense? Are the raptors still 3rd in the East? Lowry was a beast in Houston and he's a beast in Toronto. He's proven he can put up stats and lead his team to a respectable record. Really I don't think there's one thing Lin is better at that Lowry. Lin has a height advantage but that's it. Lowry beats him in almost every other category. Not to mention his defense.

Lowry was a monster, a pest defensively. Yes that's what the Rockets broadcasters called him, a pest. A bowling ball because he attacked the rim at will. Sure Lin can produce similar stats if given the green light. Then again, what point guard wouldn't? Is not all about stats, you have to look at what the players bring to the table and if their positives outweigh the negatives.

[oarabbus]

I don't doubt Lin can produce similar numbers if given the green light. But at what expense? Are the raptors still 3rd in the East? Lowry was a beast in Houston and he's a beast in Toronto. He's proven he can put up stats and lead his team to a respectable record. Really I don't think there's one thing Lin is better at that Lowry. Lin has a height advantage but that's it. Lowry beats him in almost every other category. Not to mention his defense.

Lowry was a monster, a pest defensively. Yes that's what the Rockets broadcasters called him, a pest. A bowling ball because he attacked the rim at will. Sure Lin can produce similar stats if given the green light. Then again, what point guard wouldn't? Is not all about stats, you have to look at what the players bring to the table and if their positives outweigh the negatives.

In games where Harden is out, Lin has averaged 21/8 with good defense and the Rockets are 8-3 (someone correct this, may be off by one game) including recent wins over the Spurs and Mavericks, you know... teams that would be top 4 seeds in the east. I agree Lowry is a much better defender but Lin is actually a decent defender, regardless of what people would have you try to believe.

"But at what expense" really little if any at all.

Oh, and one of those games was a game against the Raptors where Lin played head to head vs. Lowry, ended up taking over the game, dropped 30+ including back-to-back buckets in OT which sealed the game. Resulting in Lowry calling Lin an "alpha scorer" in the postgame interview.

[KungFuJoe]

I think Linsanity should have shown what Lin is capable of doing with a team under his helm.

And for anyone saying it's a fluke...Houston is what...6-1...6-2?...in the games Harden has missed while avg something like 21/7 on 53% shooting.

[KungFuJoe]

Lin is a very good defender, imo. No PG can post him up and he does very well in staying in front of even the quickest guys because he's quick as **** himself.

He's also one of the best shot blocking PGs.

His biggest weakness is over helping and he can be physically man handled by some of the "rougher" PGs.

His steals are down because he doesn't gamble as much...and I think he's a better defender for it.

[oarabbus]

Lin is a very good defender, imo. No PG can post him up and he does very well in staying in front of even the quickest guys because he's quick as **** himself.

He's also one of the best shot blocking PGs.

His biggest weakness is over helping and he can be physically man handled by some of the "rougher" PGs.

His steals are down because he doesn't gamble as much...and I think he's a better defender for it.

Absolutely, it's funny how little credit Lin gets for his blocks "well that doesn't matter for a PG"... unless it's John Wall making the blocks instead of Lin. Then it's "wow, what a shotblocking PG that John Wall is". Even though Lin averages more blocks :lol

And his biggest weakness is definitely overhelping, (been that way since HS) I can't even say how many times I've seen him try to help in the post, the guy passes it to Lin's man who then hits a 3 :facepalm happens way too often. Also he's better at getting around screens now but damn, he gets floored by screens too often still.

[shoops]

Lin is a very good defender, imo. No PG can post him up and he does very well in staying in front of even the quickest guys because he's quick as **** himself.

I think Westbrook posted him up several times with reasonable success, but for the most part he is a pretty effective post defender as long as he isn't guarding a 4 or 5.
I actually think his lateral movement/reaction is a bit slow, but he recovers pretty well, enough that the opposing pgs usually end up passing it off. I believe his opponents' fg stat at the rim is pretty good too...he's definitely not some defensive sieve despite some troubles with the quick, smaller guards.

[KungFuJoe]

I think Westbrook posted him up several times with reasonable success, but for the most part he is a pretty effective post defender as long as he isn't guarding a 4 or 5.
I actually think his lateral movement/reaction is a bit slow, but he recovers pretty well, enough that the opposing pgs usually end up passing it off. I believe his opponents' fg stat at the rim is pretty good too...he's definitely not some defensive sieve despite some troubles with the quick, smaller guards.

I don't know how to look up these specific stats but I recall hearing that he is among the league leaders if not leading all pgs in opponent fg% at the rim.

[Fallen Angel]

In games where Harden is out, Lin has averaged 21/8 with good defense and the Rockets are 8-3 (someone correct this, may be off by one game) including recent wins over the Spurs and Mavericks, you know... teams that would be top 4 seeds in the east. I agree Lowry is a much better defender but Lin is actually a decent defender, regardless of what people would have you try to believe.

"But at what expense" really little if any at all.

Oh, and one of those games was a game against the Raptors where Lin played head to head vs. Lowry, ended up taking over the game, dropped 30+ including back-to-back buckets in OT which sealed the game. Resulting in Lowry calling Lin an "alpha scorer" in the postgame interview.

8-3? Are you going back to last season? Harden missing 11 games already seems like a lot to me. That's 11 games out of 46 or something close to that. That's almost 1 out of every 4 games.

Anyway, I think Lin is just stuck in a bad situation. He needs the ball in order to be effective. Harden needs his touches, Howard needs his in the post so what's left for Lin? When Houston signed him they didn't expect Harden and eventually Howard to come over. They gave him his contract because of revenue money he'd bring in. IIRC, McHale was against the signing of Lin from the start. But he's stuck here and the coaches job is to maximize everybody's potential. Play to their strengths not their weaknesses.

The main problem is Lin being ineffective without the ball. His off the ball movement is pretty bad, and so is Harden's. That's not a good combination. One of the reasons why LeBron and Wade have made it work is because they, but mainly Wade, move without the ball. Wade is probably the best SG in the league at moving without the ball.

Everyone deserves a little blame here not just Lin, Harden or the coach. It's McHale's fault for not getting on Harden when he doesn't play defense. Harden holds the ball for too long (note this doesn't mean he's a ballhog, just that he takes his time in order to get a shot off). Lin becomes ineffective without the ball, for someone who isn't an all star, that's not a good thing. He needs to find other ways to be effective, other ways to contribute.

Just a really bad combination between McHale, Harden and Lin. Despite all of that, and Harden missing a quarter of the games, the Rockets are still only a game and a half behind 4th, and 3 games behind 2nd. If they can click and play with consistency they're one of the best teams in the league.

[Mr Exlax]

When Dragic was given starting point guard duties he performed well, some may say even better than the way Lowry was playing better that year. He's proven, more seasoned. To get to the point, we all know Dragic is the better player between him and Lin. McHale knows that, heck he chose to keep him as the starting PG over Lowry, that's saying something.

McHale isn't high on Harden sharing the ball that much because the two current point guards aren't quality. Dragic is quality, he's a beast. Beverley? One of the most limited point guards in the league offensively speaking. Lin? So far he's been inconsistent. His off the ball movement is pretty bad too.

Dragic and Lin aren't on the same level really.

@ All Net:

They didn't choose Lin over Dragic. Lowery didn't want to be a back up in Houston so he was traded, and the pick the Rockets got from Toronto was used in the Harden deal. So everything turned out OK.


I can dig it. I just honestly think McHale can't make Harden give up the rock. I don't think it's because of Lin per say. I think even if we had.....shit let's say Chris Paul, I don't think McHale could "make" Harden give it up. That's all I'm saying. I don't know if Dragic would get to be Dragic playing next to Harden. I don't think McHale has any control over Harden though.

[oarabbus]

Dragic and Lin also have an equal number of triple doubles now.