Is LeBron The GREATEST To Do It Without An Elite Coach?

[NumberSix]

Think about it. All the other greats have had the Phil Jacksons, Pat Rileys, Red Auerbachs, Pops.......

Has LeBron had the greatest career without an elite coach?

[MP.Trey]

Who knows what the verdict will be on Spoelstra by the end of his career though. He could win the next 10 championships in a row for all we know, although it's extremely unlikely then would he not be considered elite? It will be interesting to see what happens if/when he loses a lot of talent.

[MichaelCorleone]

Come to think of it, yes he is.

I would love to see how KD stans and Kobe stans are going to swing this argument.

[Im Still Ballin]

Come to think of it, yes he is.

I would love to see how KD stans and Kobe stans are going to swing this argument.

should be interesting. :oldlol:

[Jameerthefear]

spo isn't an elite coach? how do u guys call yourselves heat fans?

[dr.hee]

spo isn't an elite coach? how do u guys call yourselves heat fans?

They aren't Heat fans. They're sucking Lebrons balls in order to boost their perceived self worth.

[russwest0]

They aren't Heat fans. They're sucking Lebrons balls in order to boost their perceived self worth.

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Think about it. All the other greats have had the Phil Jacksons, Pat Rileys, Red Auerbachs, Pops.......

Has LeBron had the greatest career without an elite coach?

Something you need to do before hitting the submit button.

[MMM]

from the 80's on i don't think Spo is near the level of the past championship coaches. I mean there are more than a hand full of coaches without rings that i would easily take over Spo. So, it is easy from that perspective to see he is pretty far from elite status.

[NumberSix]

spo isn't an elite coach? how do u guys call yourselves heat fans?
Spo is a good coach. Very underrated. I personally think he should have won COTY last season.

That's not the point though. When I say "elite" I'm referring to the all time greats. Phil, Pop, Red, Riley,..... These are some of the all time greats. These are the "elite". I don't have Spoelstra in that group. It's not to say he's bad. He's very good IMO. Just not one of the elite.

[russwest0]

So if Durant wins with Scott Brooks then he is TRULY the GOAT

[BlackVVaves]

By no means am I a LeBron detractor, but I grow tired of the prototypical threads around here that try and find new ways to shove the words "LeBron" and "GOAT" down our throats. You guys are really no better than the Kobe stans around here from 2006-2010; the only difference is, LeBron is the better player of the two.

Let me ask you this OP. Do you think LeBron playing with two other Hall of Famers in their prime and having the services of Ray Allen available to him had no direct impact on him winning two championships without a Phil Jackson, Coach Pop, Pat Riley?

[NumberSix]

Let me ask you this OP. Do you think LeBron playing with two other Hall of Famers in their prime and having the services of Ray Allen available to him had no direct impact on him winning two championships without a Phil Jackson, Coach Pop, Pat Riley?
Did his team mates make an impact? Is that a serious question?


It's a team sport. Bad teams don't win.

[Bibby4Three]

When its all said and done Spo could be looked at as elite....

So if KD wins with Scott Brooks he must be the GOAT right?

[NumberSix]

So if Durant wins with Scott Brooks then he is TRULY the GOAT
If he wins at the same level of other all time greats, then that would definitely be an point in his favor.

[sbw19]

Considering it took him more than one season after joining forces with Wade and Co., I'd say he isn't. If anything, his carrying the lowly Cavs to the Finals is a far more impressive feat.

[NumberSix]

Considering it took him more than one season after joining forces with Wade and Co., I'd say he isn't. If anything, his carrying the lowly Cavs to the Finals is a far more impressive feat.
So, who was better without an elite coach? If not LeBron, who?

[La Frescobaldi]

Think about it. All the other greats have had the Phil Jacksons, Pat Rileys, Red Auerbachs, Pops.......

Has LeBron had the greatest career without an elite coach?

Spoelstra is an elite coach. Players don't play team defense on their own.
10 minutes watching Heat trapping defense ends this thread.

[NumberSix]

Spoelstra is an elite coach. Players don't play team defense on their own.
10 minutes watching Heat trapping defense ends this thread.
Soooooooo..... Scott Brooks is an elite coach too?

[dr.hee]

So, who was better without an elite coach? If not LeBron, who?

Hakeem...two titles with Rudy Tomjanovich. Or is he in the Red Auerbach tier now? Let's imagine Lebron would've won two rings with that type of team. Wouldn't you use it as an example for "having done the most with the least amount of help"? You've called Spo "very good" yourself. Now is Rudy better than "very good" for you?

And Dirk carried a mediocre team to the finals in 2006 with Avery Johnson as the head coach. Beating two 50+ and one 60+ team coming out of the West. That's slightly harder than the Cavs beating two 41-41 teams on the way to the finals in my opinion.

[Fudge]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-fTtOPybOA0o/TxTdJgLK_vI/AAAAAAAADPs/9jxfSs5HoQw/s640/hakeem-olajuwon.jpg

[dr.hee]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-fTtOPybOA0o/TxTdJgLK_vI/AAAAAAAADPs/9jxfSs5HoQw/s640/hakeem-olajuwon.jpg

Without elite coach and elite teammates:applause:

[sbw19]

So, who was better without an elite coach? If not LeBron, who?
Last 25 years? I'd say Dream did the most with the least combo of talent and coaching. But consindering winning % of coach in playoffs as an indicator of being elite I'd say year DJ won it for the Sonics.

[Bandito]

Phil Jackson wasn't a great coach at first he became one. Spoelstra is still on the judging table if he's a great coach or not.

[guy]

Pretty much every coach that wins a lot of titles is considered an elite coach. So if Lebron does that with Spo, then Spo will be considered an elite coach.

[Leftimage]

Think about it. All the other greats have had the Phil Jacksons, Pat Rileys, Red Auerbachs, Pops.......

Has LeBron had the greatest career without an elite coach?

I'm a huge Lebron fan, but, bro..

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18j5irlusw37vpng/original.png

[secund2nun]

spo isn't an elite coach? how do u guys call yourselves heat fans?

Spo is nowhere near elite. No one would ever take Spo over a real elite coach like Phil or Popovich.

[Fudge]

Spo is nowhere near elite. No one would ever take Spo over a real elite coach like Phil or Popovich.
Chill. That's because his career isn't defined yet. Isn't dude like the youngest coach in the league? Dude's like 30 with 2 ships. :oldlol: I'll guarantee you he'll be up there when all is said and done.

[Jameerthefear]

Spo is nowhere near elite. No one would ever take Spo over a real elite coach like Phil or Popovich.
elite coach=/=hall of fame coach.

get the difference?

[Jameerthefear]

hell, spo will definitely be a HOF coach by the end of his career. you guys are so dumb comparing a young head coach to ones that have already cemented their legacies.

[theoneneo]

Who needs an elite coach when you have three(Ray Allen Saved dat ass:lol) hall of famers...

Who needs a coach when you can team up with two other players chosen in the top 5 of one of the greatest drafts in history :confusedshrug:

[Alan Ogg]

http://firespo.com/ It wasn't too long ago...

[NumberSix]

elite coach=/=hall of fame coach.

get the difference?
Stop playing semantic games. You know exactly what it meant when I named Phil, Red, Pop, Pat... as the example of the tier I was talking about. I also EXPLICITLY clarified "all time greats". Don't pretend for a minute like Spo is on that tier.

Argue for the point or against it. Don't intentionally divert into another conversation.

[Jameerthefear]

Stop playing semantic games. You know exactly what it meant when I named Phil, Red, Pop, Pat... as the example of the tier I was talking about. I also EXPLICITLY clarified "all time greats". Don't pretend for a minute like Spo is on that tier.

Argue for the point or against it. Don't intentionally divert into another conversation.
if you're really comparing a coach that has been the had of the team for like 5 years to coaches like Phil (20) Red (20) Pop (17 or something) then i can't help you and your posts aren't worth reading.

[BlackVVaves]

Did his team mates make an impact? Is that a serious question?


It's a team sport. Bad teams don't win.

And yet, posters like you have made a living on ISH debating ad nauseum what players had more help, no help, least help, too much help, along the way to a championship.

So, if it's such a team sport, then why do you spend so much time discounting LeBron's teammates when attributing prestige to his level of dominance?

It's a team sport, but you created a thread asking if LeBron is the greatest player to ever win a title despite the lower quality of coaching he received. But, you have the gall to boast its a team sport. Is the coach not an integral part to a team winning a championship? You clearly think so, as you highlight LeBron's "ability" to win a ring without a name brand coach as a remarkable feat. So, which one is it?

Get over yourself. I'm interested to see what your lot will do if LeBron for some reason fails to win another championship. The blame game will be a sight to behold.

[NumberSix]

if you're really comparing a coach that has been the had of the team for like 5 years to coaches like Phil (20) Red (20) Pop (17 or something) then i can't help you and your posts aren't worth reading.
Again diverting

[NumberSix]

And yet, posters like you have made a living on ISH debating ad nauseum what players had more help, no help, least help, too much help, along the way to a championship.

So, if it's such a team sport, then why do you spend so much time discounting LeBron's teammates when attributing prestige to his level of dominance?

I actually don't factor championships at all into how good I think a player is.

It's a team sport, but you created a thread asking if LeBron is the greatest player to ever win a title despite the lower quality of coaching he received. But, you have the gall to boast its a team sport. Is the coach not an integral part to a team winning a championship? You clearly think so, as you highlight LeBron's "ability" to win a ring without a name brand coach as a remarkable feat. So, which one is it?

Get over yourself. I'm interested to see what your lot will do if LeBron for some reason fails to win another championship. The blame game will be a sight to behold.
I actually never mentioned titles at all in my OP. You're projecting your own thoughts.

[Alan Ogg]

It's too early to tell. We may very well look back and say Spo is elite. Only 5 coaches have won more than 2 championships. One more and Spo is in some pretty elite company.

[Nikola_]

kobe, jordan won it because of phil
spoelstra won it because of bran:rolleyes:

[Alan Ogg]

Still early in his career, but Spo has made it to the playoffs every single year since he was made coach. Also top 5 ever in win % all-time. This includes two pre-LeBron/Bosh years. Not to say he'll be able to keep it up, but he already has some pretty significant accomplishments.

[Orlando Magic]

Even if Spoelstra isn't elite, Pat Riley is and his ass is sitting up in the front office. So no, LeBron isn't the only one to do it without an elite basketball mind as part of his organization.

I believe Jalen Rose covered this recently... Auerbach, Riley, Jackson, Poppovich... the vast majority of rings lead to these 4 guys. Popp obviously to a lesser extent...

[Alan Ogg]

And what do all those elite coaches have in common? They coached top 10 players and other elite talent. They pretty much collectively coached the entire top 10.

[BlackVVaves]

I actually don't factor championships at all into how good I think a player is.

I actually never mentioned titles at all in my OP. You're projecting your own thoughts.

So you're asking if LeBron is the greatest to do "it" without an "elite" coach. Do what? Tie his shoes? Step on a court? Score a basket?

You're prowess at being facetious is astonishing. Truly the work of a pro :bowdown: :oldlol:

[BlackVVaves]

Still early in his career, but Spo has made it to the playoffs every single year since he was made coach. Also top 5 ever in win % all-time. This includes two pre-LeBron/Bosh years. Not to say he'll be able to keep it up, but he already has some pretty significant accomplishments.

Nah, don't let the OP hear you speak like a rational Heat fan. It won't work with his narrative - don't you get it, LeBron is the greatest to do it without a elite coach, elite teammates, elite front office.

LeBron: the GOAT of all subcategories you could possibly imagine, in all universes, times infinity.

[Mr Exlax]

I would say Hakeem is. He did it with Rudy T and no second option of a Dwade or Bosh

[GrapeApe]

Spo is already regarded as elite among his peers. Current and former coaches all rave about him. Riley knew what he was doing when handing him the reigns. Granted, it's still early in his career and he's got a long way to go before being compared to the all time greats, but he's building up a lot of equity at a very young age.

[Alan Ogg]

Of course Erik learned a lot from Riley and has been greatly influenced by him. Spo's been in the HEAT organization as long as Riley has and was an assistant coach since around 2000. The notion that Spo is some kind of Riley puppet though is ridiculous.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I'd agree with this actually. Even though I feel like Pat Riley has greater influence than many will know. Spo has always been his little pawn. Riley hated coaching in the regular season, and at old age didn't have patience for it anymore. So, he could just be carrying out a lot of Riley's ideas.

[Y2ktors]

What about Hakeem Olajuwon?

[smoovegittar]

I don't think Spo is an elite coach. But he's got plenty of time to prove me wrong.

[Alan Ogg]

What about Larry Bird? Do you consider K.C. Jones elite? He has a pretty awesome coaching resume.

[Riley Martin]

Hakeem (Rudy Tomjanovich)
Kareem/Oscar (Larry Costello)
Bird (K. C. Jones)
Dirk (Rick Carlisle)
Barry (Al Attles)
Cowens/Havlicek (Tom Heinsohn)
Dennis Johnson (Lenny Wilkens)

Are Alex Hannum, Larry Brown, Jack Ramsay and Dick Motta considered elite?

[BlackVVaves]

What about Larry Bird? Do you consider K.C. Jones elite? He has a pretty awesome coaching resume.

Good point.

According to OP, he isn't referring to championships though, just some ambiguous subjectivity in the form of "it."

So, if championships are annihilated from the premise, then one can make a case that Charles Barkley was the greatest to "do it" without an elite coach.

[branslowski]

Phil Jackson wasn't called elite untill after winning titles with the Bulls...Same with Red, same with Pop....And now Spo has a chance....All coached Jordan, Pippen, Kobe, Shaq, Russell, Duncan, and LeBron/Wade....Only reason you don't give Spo any credence is because he's younger and only has 2 and because you love Bran's cawk.

Pretty sure If ISH existed when Phil won his second, MJ stans would be like "If Jordan the Greatest to win without a Elite coach?"....Yea, you get the point.

Besides, LeBron killed his mantle of becoming the Greatest when he colluded and ran to a stacked team like a puss./

[dr.hee]

Hakeem (Rudy Tomjanovich)
Kareem/Oscar (Larry Costello)
Bird (K. C. Jones)
Dirk (Rick Carlisle)
Barry (Al Attles)
Cowens/Havlicek (Tom Heinsohn)
Dennis Johnson (Lenny Wilkens)

Are Alex Hannum, Larry Brown, Jack Ramsay and Dick Motta considered elite?

:applause:

[NumberSix]

So you're asking if LeBron is the greatest to do "it" without an "elite" coach. Do what? Tie his shoes? Step on a court? Score a basket?
Play basketball. :hammerhead:

[Riley Martin]

Play basketball. :hammerhead:

Are you serious? You should be more specific next time. I thought "do it" referred to winning a championship.

[NumberSix]

Are you serious? You should be more specific next time. I thought "do it" referred to winning a championship.
Why?


I would think it's pretty clear if someone said "Michael Jordan is the greatest to ever do it" they would obviously be talking about playing basketball. I don't see why anybody would make the leap that it specifically means winning the finals.

[BigMacAttack]

If he wins at the same level of other all time greats, then that would definitely be an point in his favor.

Not having two other superstars aswell would be in his favour.


Stupid thread, Spo will be remembered as elite by all but LBJ dickriders, and he has Pat Riley anyway.

[NumberSix]

Not having two other superstars aswell would be in his favour.
If OKC lose Westbrook and Ibaka, and Deuxrant still leads OKC to a title... Yeah, I guess that would be some extra sauce on it.

[DaSeba5]

If Spo continues to win consistently with the Heat, he will be considered elite too. So let's say 20 years from now Spo has a great record and success as a coach, people won't say LeBron is the best player to never have an elite coach.

[BigMacAttack]

If OKC lose Westbrook and Ibaka, and Deuxrant still leads OKC to a title... Yeah, I guess that would be some extra sauce on it.


Lebron stans have torn his teammates appart to the point where they are all scrubs to prop Lebron up, now you are starting on his coach lol this shit is pathetic soon Riley will be a shit GM, and you try and act like you are better then kobe stans :facepalm.

[NumberSix]

Lebron stans have torn his teammates appart to the point where they are all scrubs to prop Lebron up, now you are starting on his coach lol this shit is pathetic soon Riley will be a shit GM, and you try and act like you are better then kobe stans :facepalm.
When?

[Odinn]

Sadly, even Spo is a lot better than current average quailty. Anf that's why it is NOT hard to say Spo is elite right now. He isn't historically good, he isn't an all-time great.

Also let's not act like those goat level coaches were not fortunate. Pat Riley became coach of KAJ and Magic with a great cast in 1981-82 season. He had no experience before. The same applies for P-Jax. Became coach of MJ-Pippen duo. Before Duncan's arrival, the Spurs were tanking and a season later he became coach of TD-DRob duo. They benefitted from goat level players to become goat level coaches.

[TheMarkMadsen]

If Spo continues to win consistently with the Heat, he will be considered elite too. So let's say 20 years from now Spo has a great record and success as a coach, people won't say LeBron is the best player to never have an elite coach.

this seems pretty obvious not sure how OP didn't consider this.

Spo is 43..

[BigMacAttack]

When?


The dozen or so threads about how stacked or not stacked the heat are, you know what I am talking about.

[talkingconch]

Yep.

Hes also the first guy to do it by bandwagoning lol

[outbreak]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/2814ca9564f47d7c6173e7ad2be4f278/tumblr_n01d22DjQA1qz9ddwo1_500.jpg

[Bandito]

If Spo continues to win consistently with the Heat, he will be considered elite too. So let's say 20 years from now Spo has a great record and success as a coach, people won't say LeBron is the best player to never have an elite coach.
Yeah that's exactly what happens to every great coach. Everybody has to start at the beginning.

[Sharmer]

Think about it. All the other greats have had the Phil Jacksons, Pat Rileys, Red Auerbachs, Pops.......

Has LeBron had the greatest career without an elite coach?

Premature statement.

:biggums:

[I<3NBA]

by the end of Spo's career, he will be considered elite. his growth as a coach has been amazing. idk what y'all are smoking still disrespecting Spo. he is not the coach that he was in 2011.

[TheMarkMadsen]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/2814ca9564f47d7c6173e7ad2be4f278/tumblr_n01d22DjQA1qz9ddwo1_500.jpg


Bran really needs to work on his jealousy issues

[Big#50]

No. Duncan is. Dude won four rings and would have six if he had a decent coach. Not some drunk ********** on the sideline.

[redboy]

i remember miami won 15 games or something the year before spo came and made the playoffs the year after. the heat also nearly won 50 games in 2010 with beasely as their no. 2 option

granted, wade's greatness had a lot to do with those runs, but it shows that spo is a good coach in his on way

[Ai2death]

You can skimp out on the coach when your team is stacked

[red1]

Is LeBron The GREATEST To Do It
yes after jordan kareem russell wilt bird shaq magic duncan hakeem kobe is a rapist f*ck that guy

[Lebron23]

Give some credit to Eric Spo. He's not the best X and O Coach, but he still out coached Popovich, Vogel, and Brooks in the playoffs.

[IncarceratedBob]

Phil wasn't elite during the Bulls first 3 peat. So MJ is better

[sc19]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/2814ca9564f47d7c6173e7ad2be4f278/tumblr_n01d22DjQA1qz9ddwo1_500.jpg
Bron such a pedophile.

[iamgine]

Michael Jordan did it back when Phil Jackson wasn't an elite coach. Tim Duncan too. Hakeem, kareem, Magic too. Basically most everybody.

[GOATbe]

Did the other candidates have a guy like Pat Riley working in the shadows? Were they on the most stacked team of all time? :confusedshrug:

[ripthekik]

lol.. too bad he had superior teammates.

Now, who truly did it without elite coach or superior teammates? Dirk and Hakeem. Those 2 guys should be getting the props in this thread :applause: :applause: :applause:

[BigMacAttack]

So Lebron needed a future elite coah, an elite coach working in the FO pulling the strings and 2 other all stars to win, thats weak.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

LeBron is the Greates to ever do it, you got that part right:applause: :applause:

[Lord Bean]

Lebron is probably the co-greatest player ever currently on the Miami Heat.

He's got a mountain to climb if he wants to join the top 15 though. I think he'll do it, in 10-15 years time we'll all consider Lebron one of the all-time greats.

[ripthekik]

LeBron is the Greates to ever do it, you got that part right:applause: :applause:
The greatest to ever ringchase in his prime, you got this right :pimp: :pimp:

[Marlo_Stanfield]

The greatest to ever ringchase in his prime, you got this right :pimp: :pimp:
:cry: :cry:

[red1]

The greatest ever, you got this right :pimp: :pimp:
never thought I'd see the day :cheers:

[Mr. Jabbar]

lebron is the greatest to get bailed out on a daily basis by his stacked team with a not-yet hall of fame coach, there you go

[red1]

lebron is the greatest to get bailed out on a daily basis by his stacked team with a not-yet hall of fame coach, there you go
and kobe?

[Mr. Jabbar]

and kobe?

kobe is awesome and pretty alpha

[red1]

kobe is awesome and pretty alpha
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk161/darali_starscream/B3%20Stuff/james_4.jpg

[The Iron Fist]

Kareem won with Larry Costello. Who?

Exactly. All of his success was dependent upon Kareem.