I Challenge Anyone To Validate Kobe's Greatness As An All-Time Great Post Shaq Era

[PleezeBelieve]

DAMMIT, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!

Here it is another failed year for this guy as the lead player on his team. Now it's been three years since Shaq has left, and frankly, I'm fed up with the unwarranted public adulation this guy receives. For all intents and purposes, this guy has turned into the Kevin Garnett of the guard position. No rings...no significant postseason victories...no signs of being able to elevate his teammates to a championship level, and yet I have to hear people like GOBB easily say that Kobe is the best player in the NBA without a slither of hesitation. Now I'm here to say...F*CK THAT, NOT ANYMORE!!!!

Im telling you, this is where the buck stops. This guy has had three years to justify his ranking amoung the elite of the All-Time Greats and he simply has not done it. This guy is going on 30 years old and he hasn't even gotten out the first freaking round of the playoffs by himself. NO MORE EXCUSES!!!! Stop telling me about injuries. Stop telling me about the depth of the Western Conference. STOP!!!! PLEASE, JUST STOP. It's time to call a spade a spade.

[picc84]

This'll be good. :oldlol:

[DreamRockets]

ok, for one, i agree with you (hope god forgives me)

is kobe top 10 in the league ? yes

the best ? no

"easily" the best as his groopies claim ? get the phuck out of here with that :roll:

[AI Nuggets3]

Kobe is proof that the best player on earth doesnt always equal the MVP award.

[gb8]

35. ppg season. 81 point game. all nba first team all defense first team. if he takes these guys to the playoffs this year is pretty amazing also.

[DaHeezy]

Is this the same type of challenge you put out to GOBB? Don't disappear from this one too.

[MetsPackers]

Word. In a "where does Kobe rank all-time" thread, homers were saying that he was top 25-30. Kobe isn't even in my top 75. Without Shaq he's nothing.

[lbj4kb8]

DAMMIT, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!

This guy is going on 30 years old and he hasn't even gotten out the first freaking round of the playoffs by himself. NO MORE EXCUSES!!!! Stop telling me about injuries. Stop telling me about the depth of the Western Conference. STOP!!!!

.


Relax man, we haven't finished the year yet. He may not win it all this year, but theres a good chance he'll get out of the first round if they play the Jazz (which is possible). That match up looks favorable for the Lakers if Odom can get back. Besides, a one man team can't win it all. Jordan didn't even do it. He had Pippen. Who does Kobe have? Smush, Walton, Cook, Kwame all have careers because of him. Get better role players around him and see what he can do.

[LakersDynasty]

Word. In a "where does Kobe rank all-time" thread, homers were saying that he was top 25-30. Kobe isn't even in my top 75. Without Shaq he's nothing.
Name 75 better players retard.

[DreamRockets]

i could at least name 30-40 better, but you of course being a kobe fan would disagree with me.

[hotsizzle]

Word. In a "where does Kobe rank all-time" thread, homers were saying that he was top 25-30. Kobe isn't even in my top 75. Without Shaq he's nothing.

if you call loki homer, then ok.

and name 75 better...actually ill make it easier, name 30 better.

[Real Men Wear Green]

35 points per game. I'm not a Bryant fan either but there's no point in arguing with reality.

[bleedinpurple]

DAMMIT, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!

Here it is another failed year for this guy as the lead player on his team. Now it's been three years since Shaq has left, and frankly, I'm fed up with the unwarranted public adulation this guy receives. For all intents and purposes, this guy has turned into the Kevin Garnett of the guard position. No rings...no significant postseason victories...no signs of being able to elevate his teammates to a championship level, and yet I have to hear people like GOBB easily say that Kobe is the best player in the NBA without a slither of hesitation. Now I'm here to say...F*CK THAT, NOT ANYMORE!!!!

Im telling you, this is where the buck stops. This guy has had three years to justify his ranking amoung the elite of the All-Time Greats and he simply has not done it. This guy is going on 30 years old and he hasn't even gotten out the first freaking round of the playoffs by himself. NO MORE EXCUSES!!!! Stop telling me about injuries. Stop telling me about the depth of the Western Conference. STOP!!!! PLEASE, JUST STOP. It's time to call a spade a spade.

Another stupid thread by a ***** displaying b-ball ignorance.
Even Pat Riley just said, on national TV, that Kobe is in MJs class (not MJ, but up there..and that no one else in the game today can be discussed in that category).
But to the point of ignorance. The Lakers made the playoffs, against EVERY pundit's prediction, despite being among the youngest team in the NBA, despite being in complete re-build mode. That alone is enuf to give Kobe the props he deserves.
So stop hating and give the guy some credit. Heck, even his colleagues say he is the all-around best in the game today.
What, he has to win a championship again (but now with a cast of injured mediocre players) before he gets respect?
Stupid thread.

[dejordan]

going on 30 and hasn't made it out of the first round on his own? that statement basically blames bryant for the fact that he joined a shaq-led team as a rookie. it's not his fault he played next to the greatest center of a generation for the first 7 years of his career. in his three years since shaq left he hasn't made it out of the first round. so what? the west has been a beast, and his team has been marginal, especially before phil came back. actually, jordan won an mvp before he made it out of the first round (he got past the cavs on "the shot" that same year). i'm not saying that kobe's the best in the league, but i know you can't totally discredit him because he hasn't won a playoff round without shaq. he played his role brilliantly on those three title teams, executing the offense as needed, and killing teams at the end of games as shaq's free throw problems reduced his effectiveness. anyway, at least the lakers aren't dominating the finals anymore:D

[hotsizzle]

this is some stupid sh!t: "validate post-shaq"...why are kobe's years wiith shaq go discounted. wtf? no other player gets this kind of treatement.

[SsKSpurs21]

the Lakers are still a playoff team dispite all of the injuries they have had. why are playing giving them crap? they are still winning games without solid contributors...and alot of that has to do with Kobe Bryant.

[bleedinpurple]

Word. In a "where does Kobe rank all-time" thread, homers were saying that he was top 25-30. Kobe isn't even in my top 75. Without Shaq he's nothing.

I suppose without Shaq, D-Wade is nothing?

[Brunch@Five]

Bryant easily is top 25 all time. I'd go as far as to say that he's the second best SG to ever play the game. Yes, better than West. Better than Drexler. Better than Gervin.

[Bosh4life]

Name 75 better players retard.

I don't even like Kobe and i agree that saying 75 players is more then a vast overstatment. I would like to see him even name 30. I know i wouldn't be able to.

[L.Kizzle]

this is some stupid sh!t: "validate post-shaq"...why are kobe's years before shaq go discounted. wtf? no other player gets this kind of treatement.

I agree no other player gets that type of treatment. But no other NBA player ever rand a top 10 all time player out of town.

[L.Kizzle]

Bryant easily is top 25 all time. I'd go as far as to say that he's the second best SG to ever play the game. Yes, better than West. Better than Drexler. Better than Gervin.

I don't know if hes better then those three.

[DreamRockets]

if you call loki homer, then ok.

and name 75 better...actually ill make it easier, name 30 better.

russell, wilt, robertson, larry, moses, karl malone, hakeem, isiah, kareem, shaq, duncan, magic, mikan (not more talented, but deffinitelly dominated more than kobe as number 1), reed, drob, hondo, pettit, Drj, MJ, then you can argue west, baylor, barkley, ewing, Kg, dirk (right now), hayes, etc (even though i disagree with the last list except maybe hayes)

[PleezeBelieve]

35 points per game. I'm not a Bryant fan either but there's no point in arguing with reality.
Nobody said he wasn't a great player. But if you me to believe he's the best player in the NBA, let alone a Great of the All-Time Greats, you'll need more than that, bro.

[Vragrant]

I have no problem with Bryant being a lock for the HOF and a top 50 player. But IMO he is NOT clearly the best player in the league. Yes, is among the best in the league currently (IMO top 3), but he is not head and shoulders among his peers like his hardcore fans like you to believe. He in no way dominates the game or the league like the so called best player should.

[Twiens]

Some people are just so damn stupid. How can you blame a guy for having Shaq on this team? You can basically make up this same bull**** about anyone:

-Steve Nash has never won a title despite being on loaded teams.
-Jordan has never won a title without Pippen.
-Shaq has never won without a superstar SG.

See how dumb that sounds?

[gb8]

I agree no other player gets that type of treatment. But no other NBA player ever rand a top 10 all time player out of town.

Is Shaq not responsible for his own actions? Is he not a grown man, stop blaming kobe all te time and realise that Shaq essentially did what Shaq wanted to which is his perogative and he had a right to do it. Seriously people view the world like a bunch of b i t ches sometimes.

[LakersDynasty]

Mikan? WTF :roll: He was considered a giant at 6'10, 250 lbs. He was dominating against a bunch of 6'7, unathletic, weak white centers. Sometimes you have to stop and think what these players would be like in the 50s, David Lee would have dominated the 50's.

[L.Kizzle]

Is Shaq not responsible for his own actions? Is he not a grown man, stop blaming kobe all te time and realise that Shaq essentially did what Shaq wanted to which is his perogative and he had a right to do it. Seriously people view the world like a bunch of b i t ches sometimes.

I'm not blaming Kobe alone. It was both of their faults (including Phil). Anyways, Kobe All Time is a top 35 player.

[hotsizzle]

I agree no other player gets that type of treatment. But no other NBA player ever rand a top 10 all time player out of town.

shaq was asking for 35 mil PER year..Kobe or no Kobe, he wasnt getting it. His feud with Kobe added fuel to the fire. Both were to blame...shaq asked for a trade and got it

[picc84]

If Shaq hadnt rejected Buss's contract extension offer, he'd still be a Laker.

[DreamRockets]

Some people are just so damn stupid. How can you blame a guy for having Shaq on this team? You can basically make up this same bull**** about anyone:

lets see:


-Steve Nash has never won a title despite being on loaded teams.

which is why nash isnt one of the greatest players to ever play the game, plus he didnt have a prime shaq, plus no one is saying nash is better than kobe, because well, he isn't.



-Jordan has never won a title without Pippen.

true but jordan was the driving force in those teams, MJ rarely EVER played poorly in the playoffs and finals which scottie did quite oftenly.


-Shaq has never won without a superstar SG.

same as MJ but not to the same exent because shaq's superstar sidekicks have been better than pippen, they have bailed out shaq more than pippen ever bailed jordan (which was pretty much once in game 6 nba finals 1992)

[Brunch@Five]

russell, wilt, robertson, larry, moses, karl malone, hakeem, isiah, kareem, shaq, duncan, magic, mikan (not more talented, but deffinitelly dominated more than kobe as number 1), reed, drob, hondo, pettit, Drj, MJ, then you can argue west, baylor, barkley, ewing, Kg, dirk (right now), hayes, etc (even though i disagree with the last list except maybe hayes)

The only thing Malone has on Bryant is longevity. Kobe will surpass him by the end of his career.
Reed over Bryant? :roll:
David Robinson? no way. He was a great center in his day, but isn't even top5 all time at that position, 7th at best. He won his rings as a role player, Kobe did so as a superstar.
How is DrJ over him? If you include ABA, yes, but ABA does not count when talking about NBA All-Time
What has West done to be rated over Kobe? lose 7 finals?
Barkley is on par with Kobe, not necessarily better.
Ewing is not better.
KG is about on his level right now, but I'd prefer Kobe.
Dirk? I'm a big fan, but you cannot rate him over Kobe.
Hayes was a nice player, but didn't do anything really but pile up stats.

That leaves 18 players to definitely be rated over Kobe. And by the end of his career Kobe will most likely have surpassed some of those.

[L.Kizzle]

russell, wilt, robertson, larry, moses, karl malone, hakeem, isiah, kareem, shaq, duncan, magic, mikan (not more talented, but deffinitelly dominated more than kobe as number 1), reed, drob, hondo, pettit, Drj, MJ, then you can argue west, baylor, barkley, ewing, Kg, dirk (right now), hayes, etc (even though i disagree with the last list except maybe hayes)

All of those players I would take over Kobe except KG and Dirk.'

You can add to the list Drexler, Rick Barry, Walt Frazier and Kevin Duckworth.

[PleezeBelieve]

going on 30 and hasn't made it out of the first round on his own? that statement basically blames bryant for the fact that he joined a shaq-led team as a rookie. it's not his fault he played next to the greatest center of a generation for the first 7 years of his career. in his three years since shaq left he hasn't made it out of the first round. so what? the west has been a beast, and his team has been marginal, especially before phil came back. actually, jordan won an mvp before he made it out of the first round (he got past the cavs on "the shot" that same year). i'm not saying that kobe's the best in the league, but i know you can't totally discredit him because he hasn't won a playoff round without shaq. he played his role brilliantly on those three title teams, executing the offense as needed, and killing teams at the end of games as shaq's free throw problems reduced his effectiveness. anyway, at least the lakers aren't dominating the finals anymore:D
For the purposes of this thread, I don't care about what he did or did not do during those years. All I care what he is doing now, during the apex of his career physically. If you want to bring in his Shaq years then he isn't even in the top-50, IMO. Sidekicks don't have that sort of privileges. Pippen only gets in on the strength of 6 rings and being a better overall sidekick than kobe was with Shaq.

But regardless, stop trying to deflect the intention of this thread. We are focusing on Kobe's solo years, and all the career defining moments that come along with that. And IMO, this era has been more non-descriptive than overly impressive. 35 ppg? So what, we all knew he was a great scorer. What about rings? That is what needs to be answered, my friend.

[LakersDynasty]

Drexler over Kobe? Kevin Duckworth? Frazier? Are you guys nuts?

[Noob Saibot]

KG is about on his level right now, but I'd prefer Kobe

KG for me, don't you play NBA Live? Best rating in the game.

[malek4980]

Bryant easily is top 25 all time. I'd go as far as to say that he's the second best SG to ever play the game. Yes, better than West. Better than Drexler. Better than Gervin.
Kobe is not better than West. Gervin? Probably. Drexler? Yeah.

[L.Kizzle]

Drexler over Kobe? Kevin Duckworth? Frazier? Are you guys nuts?

Kevin Duckworth was a joke.:oldlol:

[bleedinpurple]

Some people are just so damn stupid. How can you blame a guy for having Shaq on this team? You can basically make up this same bull**** about anyone:

-Steve Nash has never won a title despite being on loaded teams.
-Jordan has never won a title without Pippen.
-Shaq has never won without a superstar SG.

See how dumb that sounds?

Good point.
Stockton is not among the greatest ever.
Malone is not among the greatest.
AI isn't either.
Silly thread...but at least it generates lots of debate. Just goes to show there is still great interest in Kobe (love him or hate him).

[SsKSpurs21]

The only thing Malone has on Bryant is longevity. Kobe will surpass him by the end of his career.
Reed over Bryant? :roll:
David Robinson? no way. He was a great center in his day, but isn't even top5 all time at that position, 7th at best. He won his rings as a role player, Kobe did so as a superstar.
How is DrJ over him? If you include ABA, yes, but ABA does not count when talking about NBA All-Time
What has West done to be rated over Kobe? lose 7 finals?
Barkley is on par with Kobe, not necessarily better.
Ewing is not better.
KG is about on his level right now, but I'd prefer Kobe.
Dirk? I'm a big fan, but you cannot rate him over Kobe.
Hayes was a nice player, but didn't do anything really but pile up stats.

That leaves 18 players to definitely be rated over Kobe. And by the end of his career Kobe will most likely have surpassed some of those.

DRob was a league MVP, rebounding title, scoring title. he also led the spurs to the best record of 60-22 in the nba in 95 with a supporting cast consisting of sean elliot, vinny del negro, chuck person and avery johnson.

[Vendetta]

Shaq, MJ, Wilt, Russell, Bird, Johnson, Barkley, Olajuwon, Jabbar, Duncan, Malone, Malone, Robertson, Garnett, Payton, McGrady (yep, **** you), Thomas, Stockton, Pippen...

I'm sure there's a lot more old timers that deserve to be on the list ahead of Kobe & probably some I forgot but I haven't been watching basketball but for only about 13-14 years so I can't really say for sure who else...

[Skywalker]

shaq was asking for 35 mil PER year

... I never knew this.... or I just forgot .... w/e the case, that's INSANE.

btw, anyone arguing Kobe is not top 10, and somone saying they could seriously believing they coudl name 30-40 better should be ILLEGAL

[Soccer10]

Kobe is top 25.
Right now there isn't a guy who's clearly the best in the league but most people consider Kobe the best for many reasons. Kobe's probably the best but it's not like he's much better than other people.

[hateraid]

This thread proves there are a ton of delusional people on ISH, and I won't tell you which side I'm speaking on behalf of.

[Indian guy]

Let's see...35 ppg(30 ****ING 5 PPG!) and leading a very average and young team to the playoffs in a tough conference. I'd say that's pretty good. He's also putting another great year this season: 29/5/5 and the 6th seed despite major injuries to a bunch of key players.

Look, nobody's saying Kobe's the undisputed best in the league but to deny his greatness is pure hating. What do you want the guy to do?

[Vendetta]

When I think all time great, I think top 10... maybe top 15ish.

Kobe isn't there. He's like in the second to third tier of greats.

[Noob Saibot]

Kobe actually had a pretty good game against the Suns. he made good plays and passed the ball more than usual. he just needs to do it more often because he can easily turn into the ballhoggin Kobe and play 1 against 5 whenever the Lakers start missing shots.

[SoCalMike]

This is yet another one of those threads where some of you that are noramlly intelligent posters just become plain stupid. Why not just stop with these kinds of discussions.... geez!

As for that PleazeBelieve dude.... ban him! Zero value add to this forum.



:pimp:

[bleedinpurple]

Kobe actually had a pretty good game against the Suns. he made good plays and passed the ball more than usual. he just needs to do it more often because he can easily turn into the ballhoggin Kobe and play 1 against 5 whenever the Lakers start missing shots.

and now image if Kobe had..
Amare instead of Cook
Barbosa instead of any of his PGs
The Matrix instead of ANY player on his team!!

[DreamRockets]

The only thing Malone has on Bryant is longevity. Kobe will surpass him by the end of his career.

dontrank bryant above malone until his career is over then.


Reed over Bryant? :roll:

yeah, why not ? a lot of things matter here kid, reed LEAD his team to 2 championships (emphasis on LEAD his team) and he did against wilt's lakers.

fancy dunks dont make a player great, dont even get me started with the whole "skillset" bs argument kobe fans always use.



How is DrJ over him? If you include ABA, yes, but ABA does not count when talking about NBA All-Time


he lead his team to 3 finals in the toughest era of basketball and won a ring, he also has mvps under his belt.


What has West done to be rated over Kobe? lose 7 finals?

what has kobe done to be over west ? be lucky enough to play with the most physycally dominant player of all-time compared to west being stuck with an overrated low% chucker in baylor ?




Dirk? I'm a big fan, but you cannot rate him over Kobe.

why not ? dirk carries his own team, he'll probably win around 70 games this season.



Hayes was a nice player, but didn't do anything really but pile up stats.

hayes won a ring with washington in '78, he also lead his team to 2 other nba finals appearences in '75 and '79.

[Psileas]

Mikan? WTF He was considered a giant at 6'10, 250 lbs. He was dominating against a bunch of 6'7, unathletic, weak white centers. Sometimes you have to stop and think what these players would be like in the 50s, David Lee would have dominated the 50's.

And IF I were female, I'd be a WNBA All Star. Too bad I'm not. David Lee born 2 generations ago doesn't get the food, training and genetics' advantages of nowadays. David Lee in 1950 is another 6-6 white stiff. Actually, the fact that there were very few big men in Mikan's era is what drags him down to, say, top 25-30 of all-time. Were we to judge from his dominance alone, Mikan would be a legit GOAT candidate.

I would expect a Laker fan to respect his team's history a little more.

[Noob Saibot]

and now image if Kobe had..
Amare instead of Cook
Barbosa instead of any of his PGs
The Matrix instead of ANY player on his team!!

then he could actually challenge the Pistons, Mavericks, and Heat(with Wade).

but Amare would start dissing Kobe for not getting enough touches. then this arguement would mess up team chemistry.

[dejordan]

For the purposes of this thread, I don't care about what he did or did not do during those years. All I care what he is doing now, during the apex of his career physically. If you want to bring in his Shaq years then he isn't even in the top-50, IMO. Sidekicks don't have that sort of privileges. Pippen only gets in on the strength of 6 rings and being a better overall sidekick than kobe was with Shaq.

But regardless, stop trying to deflect the intention of this thread. We are focusing on Kobe's solo years, and all the career defining moments that come along with that. And IMO, this era has been more non-descriptive than overly impressive. 35 ppg? So what, we all knew he was a great scorer. What about rings? That is what needs to be answered, my friend.
that's fine, but if you don't count the first 7 years of his career, then it's not really a big deal not to make it past the first round for the last 3 years. like i said, it took mj 4 years to make it that far, and he only had to win 3 games to do it, and he had to hit "the shot". the west is totally stacked now, and it's not like the old days where you could steal 1 road game and have a shot at upsetting. now you need to win a 7 game series, so the superior team is pretty much sure to win. so, again, i don't understand how you hold lack of playoff success against him. you've given him three years to do a career's worth of work, and his team has been retooling the whole time without a starting caliber 1 or 5. i'm just not sure how he was supposed to have accomplished anything by this point. the only thing i think you can definitively throw in kobe's face is his disappearance act in the second half of game 7 v. the suns last year. that was bizarre and, imo, would never have happened with any of the true greats of the past. so that's a point against him. but overall, how much winning do you expect a re-building franchise to do? i mean look at chicago and boston (my faves). when they lost their franchise players they were hopelessly out of the playoffs for years. oh, and i can't believe how often i find myself defending pistons and lakers recently.

[DreamRockets]

Mikan? WTF He was considered a giant at 6'10, 250 lbs. He was dominating against a bunch of 6'7, unathletic, weak white centers. Sometimes you have to stop and think what these players would be like in the 50s, David Lee would have dominated the 50's.

wtf right back at you kid:wtf: a laker fan disrespecting a freakin nba pioneer like mikan becuase he cant get kobe's sack off his mouth ?

i didnt say skills, i said dominance, he only played like 8 seasons and won 4 rings, he avraged about 25 ppg in the pre shot clock era, until kobe wins a ring sans shaquille o'neal mikan > kobe, ever superstar who LEAD his team to a title > kobe.

[bleedinpurple]

wtf right back at you kid:wtf: a laker fan disrespecting a freakin nba pioneer like mikan becuase he cant get kobe's sack off his mouth ?

i didnt say skills, i said dominance, he only played like 8 seasons and won 4 rings, he avraged about 25 ppg in the pre shot clock era, until kobe wins a ring sans shaquille o'neal mikan > kobe, ever superstar who LEAD his team to a title > kobe.

then would you same the same about Shaq? He hasn't won squat without Kobe or D-Wade.

[DreamRockets]

then would you same the same about Shaq? He hasn't won squat without Kobe or D-Wade.

no, i wouldnt, because shaq was already the best player in 3 championship teams, dont tell me how much your favorite player won kid, tell me how much he won while being the best player in his team.

[Who'sKobe]

wtf right back at you kid:wtf: a laker fan disrespecting a freakin nba pioneer like mikan becuase he cant get kobe's sack off his mouth ?

i didnt say skills, i said dominance, he only played like 8 seasons and won 4 rings, he avraged about 25 ppg in the pre shot clock era, until kobe wins a ring sans shaquille o'neal mikan > kobe, ever superstar who LEAD his team to a title > kobe.


Kinda like a Rockets fan disrespecting a player that has 3 rings when the main men (Yao, Tmac) on his team have 0 combined.

[DreamRockets]

Kinda like a Rockets fan disrespecting a player that has 3 rings when the main men (Yao, Tmac) on his team have 0 combined.

weak dude, weak, why should i(rocket fan) respect bryant ? on the other hand a laker fan disrespecting george mikan is straight pathetic, go and disrespect west, wilt, magic and kareem too so you can satisfy your kobe fetish.

[LakersDynasty]

I'm not disprespecting Mikan Idiot. You just have to look at things the way they are, Mikan was good in a pathetic era. Don't look at his Finals MVPs and rings, look at his skillset and compare them to the top 50 players of all time and tell me with a straight face that he's top 25 all time? Just because he was a Laker doesn't mean I can't be objective about it. Players from the 50's and 60's are vastly overrated in general for the most part.

[DreamRockets]

I'm not disprespecting Mikan Idiot. You just have to look at things the way they are, Mikan was good in a pathetic era. Don't look at his Finals MVPs and rings, look at his skillset and compare them to the top 50 players of all time and tell me with a straight face that he's top 25 all time? Just because he was a Laker doesn't mean I can't be objective about it. Players from the 50's and 60's are vastly overrated in general for the most part.

this is exactly why you and i are like water and oil, for me the whole "skillset" bullsheet is trash and subjective, finals mvps, dominance and championships arent subjective, they are a true measure of greatness.

[Who'sKobe]

weak dude, weak, why should i(rocket fan) respect bryant ? on the other hand a laker fan disrespecting george mikan is straight pathetic, go and disrespect west, wilt, magic and kareem too so you can satisfy your kobe fetish.


Simple. Kobe has always been better than Tmac, and always will be. When Tmac gets out of the first round, you will earn the right to disrespect Kobe.

[Psileas]

i didnt say skills, i said dominance, he only played like 8 seasons and won 4 rings, he avraged about 25 ppg in the pre shot clock era, until kobe wins a ring sans shaquille o'neal mikan > kobe, ever superstar who LEAD his team to a title > kobe.

That's the thing, actually Mikan played 6 seasons and a half (in a brief comeback) and won 5 championships (he missed the 1951 post-season and the Lakers lost the title...). He also played 2-3 seasons in the BAA and won another couple of championships. Had awards and stats been available, his palmarθ would be even scarier...But the lack of opponents, like I said, drags him down.

[DreamRockets]

Simple. Kobe has always been better than Tmac, and always will be. When Tmac gets out of the first round, you will earn the right to disrespect Kobe.

once again, pathetic, kobe has never been a rocket do i dont owe him anything, not respect, not anything, wanna compare someone in the rockets with kobe ? compare kobe to hakeem olajuwon, the dream kicks the shyt out of that exposed coattail rider, when kobe wins a ring sans shaquille o'neal you'll earn the right to talk to me :D

[Who'sKobe]

once again, pathetic, kobe has never been a rocket do i dont owe him anything, not respect, not anything, wanna compare someone in the rockets with kobe ? compare kobe to hakeem olajuwon, the dream kicks the shyt out of that exposed coattail rider, when kobe wins a ring sans shaquille o'neal you'll earn the right to talk to me :D


You say you are posting because someone is disrespecting Lakers (...why would you care). Funny, but here's your post where you say KG is better than Kobe.

"..Kg, dirk (right now), hayes, etc (even though i disagree with the last list except maybe hayes)"

Then you go on to say Nash didn't play with prime Shaq, or that Kobe didn't lead his team to 3 titles. Big statements from someone who has a player on his team to not even lead his team out of the first round.
Then you post that Dirk carries his own team when someone asked "Dirk over Kobe"?
Really? who leads the Lakers then?

When Tmac and Yao win a ring, then you'll have the right to disrespect Kobe. Until then, stop posting like a jealous woman.

[DreamRockets]

i can disrespect any of the watered down Mj wannabes of the league: kobe, carter, tmac, lebron whenever i want, kobe's rings dont mean jack until he wins one on his own so keep that bs argument indoors please :violin:

why keep insulting tmac ? are you inmediatelly assuming that i have a crush on tmac the way you have with kobe ? sorry but im not impressed with the Mj wannabes of the nba.

[Who'sKobe]

i can disrespect any of the watered down Mj wannabes of the league: kobe, carter, tmac, lebron whenever they want, kobe's rings dont mean jack until he wins one on his own so keep that bs argument indoors please :violin:

why keep insulting tmac ? are you inmediatelly assuming that i have a crush on tmac the way you have with kobe ? sorry but im not impressed with the Mj wannabes of the nba.



There you are again, acting like a jealous woman: "Kobe's rings dont mean jack until he wins one on his own"

Lame.

You choose to rag on Kobe for winning 3 rings as the SECOND BEST PLAYER. There are losers in this league like Carter, and Tmac to name a few, you should pick on them.

[PMshooter]

you've given him three years to do a career's worth of work, and his team has been retooling the whole time without a starting caliber 1 or 5. i'm just not sure how he was supposed to have accomplished anything by this point.

On the one hand, I completely agree with you. On the other hand, I almost expect Kobe to will his team into the second round, despite how utterly crappy they are as a unit.


the only thing i think you can definitively throw in kobe's face is his disappearance act in the second half of game 7 v. the suns last year. that was bizarre and, imo, would never have happened with any of the true greats of the past. so that's a point against him. but overall, how much winning do you expect a re-building franchise to do? i mean look at chicago and boston (my faves). when they lost their franchise players they were hopelessly out of the playoffs for years. oh, and i can't believe how often i find myself defending pistons and lakers recently.

Kobe still takes a lot of bad shots, too. Today's game was a good example.

But any attempt to take away from his career because he hasn't single handled taken a rebuilding franchise that's been learning a complicated offense in the tougher conference into the NBA Finals or to a championship is nothing more than haterizing masquerading as analysis.

[beau_boy04]

I don't think Kobe should be blame if he hasn't taken the Lakers passed the first round since Shaq left. I think you gotta look at THE WHOLE PICTURE!
You think Mike could have beaten the Pistons without Pippen? I think it was a bless for MJ when the Bulls got Pippen, the same I think it was a blessing when Lakers got Kobe. Did Shaq win any ring w/o Kobe? yes he did but who was next to him? Wade of course. Now that Wade is injured let's see how Miami fares against opposing teams. **** they might not even make it to the playoff but I think they will coz the EAST is weak weak. As far as leadership and maturity level Shaq is superior to Kobe, heck Shaq is 35 and Kobe is 28 ;)

Anyways, getting back to the topic... who Kobe really has in his team? Odom? **** he's always getting injured! and I think before he went down due to injuries K Brown was considered their 3rd best player.

Shaq, in the other hand has D Wade, leadership in one of the best PG of all-time Gary Payton, leadership and defense Alonzo Mourning, A Walker spurts...

**** give Kobe a healthy all-star superstar and you'll see what i mean.

[bleedinpurple]

no, i wouldnt, because shaq was already the best player in 3 championship teams, dont tell me how much your favorite player won kid, tell me how much he won while being the best player in his team.

well "kid", I suppose by your lame analysis, greatness only counts if you've won the championship as the best player on the team. kid, that is stupid.
listen, kid, respect the skills. TMac has not accomplished nearly as much as Kobe, but TMac is still one of the greatest in the league today. kid.

[DreamRockets]

:D


There you are again, acting like a jealous woman: "Kobe's rings dont mean jack until he wins one on his own"

Lame.

You choose to rag on Kobe for winning 3 rings as the SECOND BEST PLAYER. There are losers in this league like Carter, and Tmac to name a few, you should pick on them.

i dont intentionally pick on kobe, only when i think someone is overrating him, which you clearly are if you think i need to "earn" the respect to bash him :roll:

[DreamRockets]

well "kid", I suppose by your lame analysis, greatness only counts if you've won the championship as the best player on the team. kid, that is stupid.
listen, kid, respect the skills. TMac has not accomplished nearly as much as Kobe, but TMac is still one of the greatest in the league today. kid.

i respect the skills, but i respect a skills+championship combo much more.

[Who'sKobe]

:D



i dont intentionally pick on kobe, only when i think someone is overrating him, which you clearly are if you think i need to "earn" the respect to bash him :roll:



Kobe has earned every right to be called one of the best. Stop the hating and get a life.

[DreamRockets]

one of the best, thats it, its when they start calling him "the undoubt best in the league", "the next Mj" that it becomes bs.

[Who'sKobe]

i respect the skills, but i respect a skills+championship combo much more.



So you don't respect the leader of your team?

[Who'sKobe]

one of the best, thats it, its when they start calling him "the undoubt best in the league", "the next Mj" that it becomes bs.


Sorry, it aint my fault the media and Pat Riley, to name a few think he's the next MJ.

[bleedinpurple]

You say you are posting because someone is disrespecting Lakers (...why would you care). Funny, but here's your post where you say KG is better than Kobe.

"..Kg, dirk (right now), hayes, etc (even though i disagree with the last list except maybe hayes)"

Then you go on to say Nash didn't play with prime Shaq, or that Kobe didn't lead his team to 3 titles. Big statements from someone who has a player on his team to not even lead his team out of the first round.
Then you post that Dirk carries his own team when someone asked "Dirk over Kobe"?
Really? who leads the Lakers then?

When Tmac and Yao win a ring, then you'll have the right to disrespect Kobe. Until then, stop posting like a jealous woman.

very well put :cheers:
with that, dreamrockets should probably let it go

[bleedinpurple]

i can disrespect any of the watered down Mj wannabes of the league: kobe, carter, tmac, lebron whenever i want, kobe's rings dont mean jack until he wins one on his own so keep that bs argument indoors please :violin:

why keep insulting tmac ? are you inmediatelly assuming that i have a crush on tmac the way you have with kobe ? sorry but im not impressed with the Mj wannabes of the nba.

THAT'S RIDICULOUS!!!!
It's still a team game. How many rings has Shaq won on his own?...without Kobe to save his butt in many games (and carry the regular season) and Wade who carried him completely!
How many did MJ win without Pippen and a very strong supporting cast?

[LakersDynasty]

THAT'S RIDICULOUS!!!!
It's still a team game. How many rings has Shaq won on his own?...without Kobe to save his butt in many games (and carry the regular season) and Wade who carried him completely!
How many did MJ win without Pippen and a very strong supporting cast?
You don't understand, Shaq and MJ are superman, they could have won a title with any supporting cast. Bill Russell won 11 rings, so he's the GOAT! Who cares if he played with 6 HOFers when he got his 6th ring?

[DreamRockets]

It's still a team game. How many rings has Shaq won on his own?...without Kobe to save his butt in many games (and carry the regular season) and Wade who carried him completely!

shaq was still the lakers main scoring option in the regular season and the only legit mvp candidate in that team, kobe carrying the regular season you mean ?



How many did MJ win without Pippen and a very strong supporting cast?

without pippen ? zero
without a very strong supporting cast ? 6

[Heilige]

i can disrespect any of the watered down Mj wannabes of the league: kobe, carter, tmac, lebron whenever i want, kobe's rings dont mean jack until he wins one on his own so keep that bs argument indoors please :violin:

why keep insulting tmac ? are you inmediatelly assuming that i have a crush on tmac the way you have with kobe ? sorry but im not impressed with the Mj wannabes of the nba.


It's a team game son.

[DreamRockets]

You don't understand, Shaq and MJ are superman, they could have won a title with any supporting cast. Bill Russell won 11 rings, so he's the GOAT! Who cares if he played with 6 HOFers when he got his 6th ring?

why can't be russell the goat dumbass ? he certainly has a better case for goat than kobe :roll: shaq and MJ too, kobe is in the 2nd tier with the drexlers and pippens.

[bleedinpurple]

You don't understand, Shaq and MJ are superman, they could have won a title with any supporting cast. Bill Russell won 11 rings, so he's the GOAT! Who cares if he played with 6 HOFers when he got his 6th ring?

oh, now I see.
:rockon:

[Heilige]

why can't be russell the goat dumbass ? he certainly has a better case for goat than kobe :roll: shaq and MJ too, kobe is in the 2nd tier with the drexlers and pippens.


No one said Kobe is the GOAT. The truth is out there Scully. Keep looking. :roll: :roll:

[Who'sKobe]

why can't be russell the goat dumbass ? he certainly has a better case for goat than kobe :roll: shaq and MJ too, kobe is in the 2nd tier with the drexlers and pippens.


It's better to not post than post and remove all doubt that you are whack.

[Heilige]

DreamRockets, you forgot your tinfoil hat. Put it on and go back in your basement and see if you can come up with any more conspiracy theories.

[DreamRockets]

its better to remain silent and look dumb than trying to speak when kobe's dick is in your mouth because others cant understand what you mean.

[DreamRockets]

DreamRockets, you forgot your tinfoil hat. Put it on and go back in your basement and see if you can come up with any more conspiracy theories.

conspiracy theories son ? what conspiracy theories ? im only stating facts here, russell/MJ/shaq > kobe = fact.

[MaxFly]

why can't be russell the goat dumbass ? he certainly has a better case for goat than kobe :roll: shaq and MJ too, kobe is in the 2nd tier with the drexlers and pippens.

Did you just say that Bill Russel has a better case for GOAT then MJ? I just want to make sure...

[bleedinpurple]

shaq was still the lakers main scoring option in the regular season and the only legit mvp candidate in that team, kobe carrying the regular season you mean ?




without pippen ? zero
without a very strong supporting cast ? 6

Horace Grant? Rodman? Paxson (deadeye)? Kerr (deadeye)? heck, even Cartwright was a beast (don't go inside on him), etc. etc.

[LakersDynasty]

why can't be russell the goat dumbass ? he certainly has a better case for goat than kobe :roll: shaq and MJ too, kobe is in the 2nd tier with the drexlers and pippens.
And where did I say Kobe has a case for GOAT ****ing moron? Don't put words in my mouth kid. You're completely delusional, you do realize that basketball is a team game right? And you do realize that having better teammates makes a huge difference? Why wouldn't Bill Russell be the GOAT? Are you ****ing out of your mind? As an individual player he doesn't even rank top 25 all time. Wilt>>>>>>>>Russell, despite having 9 fewer rings.

[Heilige]

conspiracy theories son ? what conspiracy theories ? im only stating facts here, russell/MJ/shaq > kobe = fact.


Eveyone ALREADY KNOWS those players are better than Kobe. Do you have comprehension problems? Stop beating a dead horse.

[Who'sKobe]

its better to remain silent and look dumb than trying to speak when kobe's dick is in your mouth because others cant understand what you mean.



I'm TYPING, not speaking. Just like I posted before, don't embarrass yourself further.

[DreamRockets]

Eveyone ALREADY KNOWS those players are better than Kobe. Do you have comprehension problems? Stop beating a dead horse.

then wtf conspiracy theories are you talking about ?

[Who'sKobe]

conspiracy theories son ? what conspiracy theories ? im only stating facts here, russell/MJ/shaq > kobe = fact.


Kobe > you. What's your point? Still doesn't exclude the fact that Kobe has 3 rings.

[Heilige]

then wtf conspiracy theories are you talking about ?


You thinking anyone in this thread said Kobe was the GOAT. NO ONE said or implied that.

[DreamRockets]

Kobe > you. What's your point? Still doesn't exclude the fact that Kobe has 3 rings.

so does horry, so does rodman, so does salley, so does kerr, so does sam jones, good grief :cheers:

[Who'sKobe]

so does horry, so does rodman, so does salley, so does kerr, so does sam jones, good grief :cheers:


How many of the above mentioned were the second best player on their team? I know when someone has lost it when they bring Horry and his 6 rings up.
Horry > Tmac and Yao. :cheers:

[MaxFly]

Hold up, hold up... can someone explain to me what you guys are arguing about... it seems that this thread has been hijacked and you guys are going back and forth, but aren't getting anywhere.

[DreamRockets]

which leads to my initial point, rings are a measure of greatness only when you were "THE MAN", not the sidekick, the caddie, the rider or whatever you wanna call it.

[Heilige]

so does horry, so does rodman, so does salley, so does kerr, so does sam jones, good grief :cheers:


You seem to have an irattional hate for Kobe. Get some psychological help Mr. Rockets.

[DreamRockets]

and you seem to have some irrational man love for kobe, which is even more disturbing when you consider the guy has done everything to be hated and nothing to be loved :cheers:

[Force]

If you just judge his career post Shaq, then he isn't an all time great yet. But that's stupid and unfair to judge someone and throw out what he did previous years.

[Who'sKobe]

which leads to my initial point, rings are a measure of greatness only when you were "THE MAN", not the sidekick, the caddie, the rider or whatever you wanna call it.


There's no official explanation to describe greatness. It's merely something you made up to fit your Kobe hating agenda. Stop crying , be a proper student and I will teach you some more basketball lessons.

Tmac's not even good enough to be a sidekick.

[Who'sKobe]

and you seem to have some irrational man love for kobe, which is even more disturbing when you consider the guy has done everything to be hated and nothing to be loved :cheers:



Like what? did he strangle your dog and eat him for dinner?

[DreamRockets]

Tmac's not even good enough to be a sidekick.

meaning he wasnt lucky enough to have prime shaq's coattails to ride ? :eek:

[LakersDynasty]

which leads to my initial point, rings are a measure of greatness only when you were "THE MAN", not the sidekick, the caddie, the rider or whatever you wanna call it.
So there's no difference between being one of the best sidekicks of all time and being a bench/role player? You need help.

[Who'sKobe]

meaning he wasnt lucky enough to have prime shaq's coattails to ride ? :eek:



Meaning he wasn't lucky enough to receive Kobe's basketball talent. Thank you, come again.

[bleedinpurple]

Hold up, hold up... can someone explain to me what you guys are arguing about... it seems that this thread has been hijacked and you guys are going back and forth, but aren't getting anywhere.

perhaps you can help them.
dreamrockets is basically claiming that you can't be one of greatest players as the 2nd best player on your championship team (i.e. Kobe cannot be considered great until he leads his team to a championship).
You can win three rings, but you are still not great.
by that reasoning, Pippen is not great. James Worthy is not great. Karl Malone, Stocton, Nash, etc.

[DreamRockets]

All speculations. Bring me some facts, or you are just as hapless again as you were in comparing Horry to Kobe.

facts ?

lakers in '04: 56-26(nba finals)
lakers in '05: 34-48 (miss playoffs)
lakers in '05: 45-37 (1st round choke)

heat in '04: 42-40 (lose 2nd round)
heat in '05: 59-23 (best record in east, conference finals)
heat in '06: 52-30(nba championship)

phil called him uncoachable, go read his book.

you need more facts here ?

[DreamRockets]

Ratings down 30%=Kobe's fault.

This is hilarious. :oldlol:

it is also reality, kobe was supposed to be in his prime, even with that d-league team a prime Mj or shaq would make the playoffs.

[MaxFly]

perhaps you can help them.
dreamrockets is basically claiming that you can't be one of greatest players as the 2nd best player on your championship team (i.e. Kobe cannot be considered great until he leads his team to a championship).
You can win three rings, but you are still not great.
by that reasoning, Pippen is not great. James Worthy is not great. Karl Malone, Stocton, Nash, etc.

I'm still trying to reconcile the statement someone made about Bill Russel having more of a case for GOAT than MJ...

[LakersDynasty]

facts ?

lakers in '04: 56-26(nba finals)
lakers in '05: 34-48 (miss playoffs)
lakers in '05: 45-37 (1st round choke)

heat in '04: 42-40 (lose 2nd round)
heat in '05: 59-23 (best record in east, conference finals)
heat in '06: 52-30(nba championship)

phil called him uncoachable, go read his book.

you need more facts here ?
Did Kobe have a Wade caliber player on his team? Did he play in a weak Eastern Conference? No, stfu. Shaq has never won anything without a HOF guard either.

[Who'sKobe]

facts ?

lakers in '04: 56-26(nba finals)
lakers in '05: 34-48 (miss playoffs)
lakers in '05: 45-37 (1st round choke)

heat in '04: 42-40 (lose 2nd round)
heat in '05: 59-23 (best record in east, conference finals)
heat in '06: 52-30(nba championship)

phil called him uncoachable, go read his book.

you need more facts here ?


It's very nice to have a good team around you, isn't it?
You are good at cherry picking "facts", now provide backup for the other crap you posted or be prepared to lose all credibility, whatever little you had left.

[DreamRockets]

Did Kobe have a Wade caliber player on his team? Did he play in a weak Eastern Conference? No, stfu. Shaq has never won anything without a HOF guard either.

which doesnt mean jack because shaq was the best player in 3 of those 4 teams, Mj never won jack without pippen, that doesnt make an overrated choker like pippen jordan's equal.

[Who'sKobe]

it is also reality, kobe was supposed to be in his prime, even with that d-league team a prime Mj or shaq would make the playoffs.



Kobe made the playoffs the next year. The Rockets?

[LakersDynasty]

I'm still trying to reconcile the statement someone made about Bill Russel having more of a case for GOAT than MJ...
He's right though. I mean, playing with 6 HOFers means nothing, right?

Bill wasn't half the player that Wilt was. This kid needs help.

[bleedinpurple]

I'm still trying to reconcile the statement someone made about Bill Russel having more of a case for GOAT than MJ...

don't even try...it's hard to make sense of that one.

[MaxFly]

Did Kobe have a Wade caliber player on his team? Did he play in a weak Eastern Conference? No, stfu. Shaq has never won anything without a HOF guard either.

You can't really use that as a qualifier...

Shaq has been an extremely fortunate player... He's only had one season where he had to play without an all-star level guard.

[Who'sKobe]

which doesnt mean jack because shaq was the best player in 3 of those 4 teams, Mj never won jack without pippen, that doesnt make an overrated choker like pippen jordan's equal.



Translation: I will cherry pick facts that I like.

[DreamRockets]

Kobe made the playoffs the next year. The Rockets?

the rockets made the playoffs in 2005, kobe ? :roll: after shaq left the lakers won 22 less games, kobe's fg% went down 4%, he was no longer allnba defense in 2005, can you say exposed coattail rider ? :eek:

[DreamRockets]

Translation: I will cherry pick facts that I like.

cherry pick facts ? look son, a finals mvp is universally recognised as a better player than a sidekick who averaged 10 less ppg and shot 15% less fg% than him, is it really so hard to understand ? jesus i know kobephiles are slow but this is embarassing here :oldlol:

[MaxFly]

the rockets made the playoffs in 2005, kobe ? :roll: after shaq left the lakers won 22 less games, kobe's fg% went down 4%, he was no longer allnba defense in 2005, can you say exposed coattail rider ? :eek:

DreamRockets, are you making statements to piss off the Bryant fans? If so, continue... it's actually kinda fun to watch... But if you're actually trying to put forward compelling logic... you're not doing a good job...

[DreamRockets]

You can't really use that as a qualifier...

Shaq has been an extremely fortunate player... He's only had one season where he had to play without an all-star level guard.

kareem hardly had ANY success without magic and robertson (better players than kobe and wade) in fact he missed the playoffs with a good suporting cast before he played with magic, he also missed the playoffs after robertson retired, that doesnt make kareem any less great.

[DreamRockets]

DreamRockets, are you making statements to piss off the Bryant fans? If so, continue... it's actually kinda fun to watch... But if you're actually trying to put forward compelling logic... you're not doing a good job...
ok, go to basketball reference, did the lakers not win 22 less games ? did kobe not shoot the worst fg% of his career ? didnt kobe get exposed as the overrated defender he is without the 7'1 360lbs goalie protecting the rim for him ? im not telling you nothing that is not fact here.

[MaxFly]

kareem hardly had ANY success without magic and robertson (better players than kobe and wade) that doesnt make kareem any less great.

Basically...

[Who'sKobe]

the rockets made the playoffs in 2005, kobe ? :roll: after shaq left the lakers won 22 less games, kobe's fg% went down 4%, he was no longer allnba defense in 2005, can you say exposed coattail rider ? :eek:


Kobe was injured. Nice try. What was the Rocket's excuse? Tmac's back was whack as usual?

[LakersDynasty]

ok, go to basketball reference, did the lakers not win 22 less games ? did kobe not shoot the worst fg% of his career ? didnt kobe get exposed as the overrated defender he is without the 7'1 360lbs goalie protecting the rim for him ? im not telling you nothing that is not fact here.
He made the All defensive first team last year, without superman protecting the paint for him. :oldlol:

[DreamRockets]

Kobe was injured. Nice try. What was the Rocket's excuse? Tmac's back was whack as usual?

ok, you accuse me of making excuses and you trhow up "kobe was injured" ? :lol: ok, BOTH tmac and yao were injured, this year tmac is doing a better job of winning games for his team without yao than kobe has ever done without shaq.

[picc84]

ok, go to basketball reference, did the lakers not win 22 less games ? did kobe not shoot the worst fg% of his career ? didnt kobe get exposed as the overrated defender he is without the 7'1 360lbs goalie protecting the rim for him ? im not telling you nothing that is not fact here.

Kobe and Odom combined missed around 35 games that year to injury, right?

[DreamRockets]

He made the All defensive first team last year, without superman protecting the paint for him. :oldlol:

sure, superman was leading a 3rd franchise to the finals (wonder if thats a record) and winning his 4th ring only 2 seasons after his departure of LA, despite of all the kobewhackers in the world claiming that shaq " would never win a ring without kobe" :pimp:

[Who'sKobe]

cherry pick facts ? look son, a finals mvp is universally recognised as a better player than a sidekick who averaged 10 less ppg and shot 15% less fg% than him, is it really so hard to understand ? jesus i know kobephiles are slow but this is embarassing here :oldlol:


Yes, cherry picking facts. Can you read, daughter? the guy asked you if Shaq has ever won without a HOF guard, but you choose to act dumb. Not a difficult task for you, I'm sure.

[Who'sKobe]

ok, you accuse me of making excuses and you trhow up "kobe was injured" ? :lol: ok, BOTH tmac and yao were injured, this year tmac is doing a better job of winning games for his team without yao than kobe has ever done without shaq.


When someone like Tmac and Yao are injury prone, you can't use that as an excuse. Nice try.

[DreamRockets]

Yes, cherry picking facts. Can you read, daughter? the guy asked you if Shaq has ever won without a HOF guard, but you choose to act dumb. Not a difficult task for you, I'm sure.

i dont choose to act dumb, you refuse to admit that number 1 player in a team is more important than number 2 player in a team, is it really hard to understand ? so what if shaq never won without an all-star swingman ? 3 of 4 times he was more important than they were.

[MaxFly]

ok, go to basketball reference, did the lakers not win 22 less games ? did kobe not shoot the worst fg% of his career ? didnt kobe get exposed as the overrated defender he is without the 7'1 360lbs goalie protecting the rim for him ? im not telling you nothing that is not fact here.

Well, a couple of things... The Lakers were on pace to make the playoffs that season before Bryant and Odom got injured, and before their coach left... Also, didn't Bryant play with an injury for most of that season? Another thing, if you look up Bryant's shooting percentage for 04-05, and 03-04, they're actually pretty similar... He didn't go down by 4%...

And then we have Bryant being named to the 1st defensive team last year... and scoring a career high ppg on the season... 1st All NBA team... he'll be named to the 1st All NBA team again this season... :confusedshrug:

It doesn't seem as if he's become useless without Shaq... in fact, he's probably a better player now than back then...

[Twiens]

EDIT: My bad, thought you said 3rd franchise to a title.

[LakersDynasty]

sure, superman was leading a 3rd franchise to the finals (wonder if thats a record) and winning his 4th ring only 2 seasons after his departure of LA, despite of all the kobewhackers in the world claiming that shaq " would never win a ring without kobe" :pimp:
But wait, how could he have led them there if he didn't win Finals MVP? Finals MVP is the true measurement of greatness right, so why should Shaq get ANY credit for Miami's ring if he wasn't the best player on the team?

[Who'sKobe]

i dont choose to act dumb, you refuse to admit that number 1 player in a team is more important than number 2 player in a team, is it really hard to understand ? so what if shaq never won without an all-star swingman ? 3 of 4 times he was more important than they were.


I already posted 5 times that Kobe was the SECOND BEST PLAYER on championship teams. Still a great accomplishment. Not that hard to understand, is it?

You are acting dumb again, stop it.

[DreamRockets]

But wait, how could he have led them there if he didn't win Finals MVP? Finals MVP is the true measurement of greatness right, so why should Shaq get ANY credit for Miami's ring if he wasn't the best player on the team?

because he already had 3 finals mvps under his belt, shaq winning a ring in miami would only enhance his already great resume, if kobe had 3 finals mvps instead of shaq everybody (including me) would say he is better than shaq, and rightfully so.

[LakersDynasty]

because he already had 3 finals mvps under his belt, shaq winning a ring in miami would only enhance his already great resume, if kobe had 3 finals mvps instead of shaq everybody (including me) would say he is better than shaq, and rightfully so.
So who led Miami there? Shaq or Wade? I thought only the guy who had the Finals MVP mattered?

[Who'sKobe]

because he already had 3 finals mvps under his belt, shaq winning a ring in miami would only enhance his already great resume, if kobe had 3 finals mvps instead of shaq everybody (including me) would say he is better than shaq, and rightfully so.



Good "logic"

Might as well post this: "Kobe was the second best player on the championship teams, so he must be the second best player even now"

[Fatal9]

:oldlol: @ first three threads having "Kobe" in it...a distinct reminder of the old board

[DreamRockets]

wade lead them there, but according to you being the 2ndbest is greatness too, meaning that shaq was 1st 3 times and 2nd once, kobe was 2nd 3 times and tahts it, lets not forget how kobe handed detroit the finals in '04 :roll: shaq never underperformed in the finals until last year, his SIXTH trip at age 35, kobe was at the peak of his prime and freakin tayshaun prince shut him down.

[Heilige]

wade lead them there, but according to you being the 2ndbest is greatness too, meaning that shaq was 1st 3 times and 2nd once, kobe was 2nd 3 times and tahts it, lets not forget how kobe handed detroit the finals in '04 :roll: shaq never underperformed in the finals until last year, his SIXTH trip at age 35, kobe was at the peak of his prime and freakin tayshaun prince shut him down.


He is just hitting his prime now you dunce. Keep making **** up.

[Who'sKobe]

wade lead them there, but according to you being the 2ndbest is greatness too, meaning that shaq was 1st 3 times and 2nd once, kobe was 2nd 3 times and tahts it, lets not forget how kobe handed detroit the finals in '04 :roll: shaq never underperformed in the finals until last year, his SIXTH trip at age 35, kobe was at the peak of his prime and freakin tayshaun prince shut him down.


You are so clueless, it's funny. While Kobe didn't have a good finals performance in '04, you forget to mention Detroit's part in winning it. If you are as good as Kobe, even being the second opition you go down as one of the greats. About time you stop acting like Kobe disappeared from the spotlight after Shaq left. Please, you jealous woman.

[DreamRockets]

He is just hitting his prime now you dunce. Keep making **** up.

so he can score 29 ppg in the 01 playoffs but in '04 he wasnt in his prime yet ? just admit it, shaq whored ben wallace when he had the ball, but as everyone knows a post player "can't pass the ball to himself", that was up to kobe bryant, and he decided that scoring 20 ppg no matter what was more important than winning the thing.

[Heilige]

Kobe > Mr. Rockets

'Nuff said.


:roll: :roll:

Dreamrockets, Kobe has done more with his life in a month than you can do in 10 lifetimes you jealous insecure unoriginal bland fat ****.

[Heilige]

so he can score 29 ppg in the 01 playoffs but in '04 he wasnt in his prime yet ? just admit it, shaq whored ben wallace when he had the ball, but as everyone knows a post player "can't pass the ball to himself", that was up to kobe bryant, and he decided that scoring 20 ppg no matter what was more important than winning the thing.



You hate Kobe. It is no use talking to you. You don't even try to understand anyone elses point of view.

[bleedinpurple]

wade lead them there, but according to you being the 2ndbest is greatness too, meaning that shaq was 1st 3 times and 2nd once, kobe was 2nd 3 times and tahts it, lets not forget how kobe handed detroit the finals in '04 :roll: shaq never underperformed in the finals until last year, his SIXTH trip at age 35, kobe was at the peak of his prime and freakin tayshaun prince shut him down.

versus Detroit, Shaq tanked big time. He was manhandled by Big Ben. That's what happens when a "leader" decides to wait until the season starts so he can have toe surgery on "company time"...some leader.

[Who'sKobe]

so he can score 29 ppg in the 01 playoffs but in '04 he wasnt in his prime yet ? just admit it, shaq whored ben wallace when he had the ball, but as everyone knows a post player "can't pass the ball to himself", that was up to kobe bryant, and he decided that scoring 20 ppg no matter what was more important than winning the thing.


That must mean he was in his prime in 2001, then.
God, you are dumb.

[DreamRockets]

so by your deffinition im a kobe h@ter ? which means you are a kobe lover, so go make love to him, slurp his dick all you want, but please do so in the lakers forum, this is the main nba forum and i can bash the ballhog as much as i want, peace :cheers:

[Who'sKobe]

so by your deffinition im a kobe h@ter ? which means you are a kobe lover, so go make love to him, slurp his dick all you want, but please do so in the lakers forum, this is the main nba forum and i can bash the ballhog as much as i want, peace :cheers:



How many times will you post this same crap? it was stupid then, it is stupid now. Don't hurt that Tmac bobblehead, now.

[DreamRockets]

versus Detroit, Shaq tanked big time. He was manhandled by Big Ben. That's what happens when a "leader" decides to wait until the season starts so he can have toe surgery on "company time"...some leader.


thas why shaq had 35/11/82%shooting in game 1 and they still lost ? what happened there ? someone shot 10-27, i wonder who ?

in game 4 shaq had 36/20/80%shooting and the lakers still lost ? what happened ? oh, someone shot 7-25, once again i wonder who.

shytty leader but at least doesnt get shut down in the finals, not even by the 4time dpoy :cheers:

[bleedinpurple]

so by your deffinition im a kobe h@ter ? which means you are a kobe lover, so go make love to him, slurp his dick all you want, but please do so in the lakers forum, this is the main nba forum and i can bash the ballhog as much as i want, peace :cheers:

wow. dude, you should just hang it up. even the non-Kobe-fans called you out. hang it up, "kid", and move on. you are beginning to look very pathetic.

[Heilige]

so by your deffinition im a kobe h@ter ? which means you are a kobe lover, so go make love to him, slurp his dick all you want, but please do so in the lakers forum, this is the main nba forum and i can bash the ballhog as much as i want, peace :cheers:


have some more chocolate cake FATBOY. :roll:

[DreamRockets]

non kobe fans ? let me see:

heilige: has a kobe avatar.
bleedingpurple: laker fan.
who's kobe: kobe avatar
maxfly: pretends not to be a kobe fan but everybody has figured him out by now.

what nonkobe fan called me out ?

[Who'sKobe]

If you could read, you would find out. Good luck.

[Heilige]

non kobe fans ? let me see:

heilige: has a kobe avatar.
bleedingpurple: laker fan.
who's kobe: kobe avatar
maxfly: pretends not to be a kobe fan but everybody has figured him out by now.

what nonkobe fan called me out ?


REASONABLE and INTELLIGENT Kobe fans have called you out like MaxFly and hotsizzle.

[DreamRockets]

if kobe fans werent so sensitive and insecure about their boy they wouldnt even bother replying when someone baits :roll: i know deep in your mind you know kobe wont win jack without shaq and wont lead your team to anything before retiring, but please do a better job of hiding the insecurity :eek:

[Who'sKobe]

if kobe fans werent so sensitive and insecure about their boy they wouldnt even bother replying when someone baits :roll: i know deep in your mind you know kobe wont win jack without shaq and wont lead your team to anything before retiring, but please do a better job of hiding the insecurity :eek:


Translation: "I hate Kobe because he has won 3 rings while the guy leading my team remains a perennial playoff loser"

Good bye, and Thank you for stopping by.

[Heilige]

if kobe fans werent so sensitive and insecure about their boy they wouldnt even bother replying when someone baits :roll: i know deep in your mind you know kobe wont win jack without shaq and wont lead your team to anything before retiring, but please do a better job of hiding the insecurity :eek:


T-Mac : 0 Rings :roll:

Kobe will win more. You are insecure and jealous of Kobe. Kobe whoops your boy T-Mac. :roll: :roll:

[DreamRockets]

Translation: "I hate Kobe because he has won 3 rings while the guy leading my team remains a perennial playoff loser"

Good bye, and Thank you for stopping by.

im not even a tmac fan :roll: is that supposed to hurt my feelings the way any damn anti kobe post hurts yours ? :oldlol:

[DreamRockets]

T-Mac : 0 Rings :roll:

Kobe will win more. You are insecure and jealous of Kobe. Kobe whoops your boy T-Mac. :roll: :roll:

didnt know we were discussing how well kobe rode shaq's coattails here :eek:

[rzp]

if kobe fans werent so sensitive and insecure about their boy they wouldnt even bother replying when someone baits :roll: i know deep in your mind you know kobe wont win jack without shaq and wont lead your team to anything before retiring, but please do a better job of hiding the insecurity :eek:

dude u completly owned the kobe group*es

[Who'sKobe]

im not even a tmac fan :roll: is that supposed to hurt my feelings the way any damn anti kobe post hurts yours ? :oldlol:



I would feel animosity toward a champion like Kobe too if my team was led by a guy who can't even get out of the first round.
Good night, sucker.

[lakers-city]

didnt know we were discussing how well kobe rode shaq's coattails here :eek:

shaq was better, no one is disputing that, i wont even say that he wouldnt have won without kobe because i think he could have, but the point is that he didnt, so every 2nd option in history doesnt deserve credit ? DRj next to malone ? pippen next to jordan ? west (wilt) ?, drexler, mchale, parrish, dennis johnson, drob, worthy ? hell i just named a dozen hall of famers who according to you dont deserve credit just because they werent the best player in their teams :rolleyes: do you even listen how stupid that sounds ? of course they dont deserve as MUCH credit as the Mj's, larrys, magics and shaq, but they do deserve credit nontheless, dont kid yourself by believing they don't.

[Dizzle-2k7]

if the nba were to end tomorrow, kobe would go down as better than vince, lebron, tmac, wade , iverson, nash, kg, yao, and anyone else not named tim or shaquille.

[rzp]

if the nba were to end tomorrow, kobe would go down as better than vince, lebron, tmac, wade , iverson, nash, kg, yao, and anyone else not named tim or shaquille.

not wade dude

[LakersDynasty]

not wade dude
So you're saying Wade>Kobe on the all-time list right now? :oldlol:

[rzp]

1 ring as the first banana is better than 3 rings as a second banana (sorry for 2 posts)

[LakersDynasty]

Wow, I'm done with this ****, people are ****ing ignorant on this board.

[SoCalMike]

This is yet another one of those threads where some of you that are noramlly intelligent posters just become plain stupid. Why not just stop with these kinds of discussions.... geez!

As for that PleazeBelieve dude.... ban him! Zero value add to this forum.



:pimp:

I can't believe you folks are still going at it.... :roll:




:pimp:

[bleedinpurple]

not wade dude

even DWade's own coach said as much today on national TV

[bleedinpurple]

I can't believe you folks are still going at it.... :roll:




:pimp:

well, what the ___ else am I going to do? my wife took over the TV and is watching Bring It On. I would rather debate this nonsenses that watch that movie.

[SoCalMike]

well, what the ___ else am I going to do? my wife took over the TV and is watching Bring It On. I would rather debate this nonsenses that watch that movie.

Ok my friend... you have a fair point that I can't arugue... :D

:cheers:



:pimp:

[lakers-city]

well, what the ___ else am I going to do? my wife took over the TV and is watching Bring It On. I would rather debate this nonsenses that watch that movie.

omg that movie sucks **** :roll:

[bleedinpurple]

omg that movie sucks **** :roll:

I'm ready to poke my eyes out!! :rolleyes:

[shafir]

I challenge PleezBelieve to get a life.

[different107]

Don't forget that (IMO) the second best player on that Lakers team - Lamar Odom - has been injured pretty much the whole season.

And I would take Kobe over Shaq anyday

[Knoe Itawl]

The thing that's so annoying about the Kobe Cult is that they blatantly ignore things they would crucify other players for. The bottom line is that apart from putting up some pretty stats here and there, Kobe has shown no more as a leader of a team than Iverson, TMac, Bron, etc. He just gets to be the best no matter what I guess just cause they say so.

Let's say it was TMac, or Wade or Bron or Dirk who in the past few years had:

A. Choked in the Finals against the Pistons the way Kobe did (the Jordan comparisons have always been absurd, but please try to imagine Michael Jordan peforming like that in the FINALS with Shaq on his team).

B. Going 1-19 during a stretch the following year (Remember how Bryant Fanatics crucified TMac for the 0-19?)

C. Choking away a 3-1 lead while wilting in the second half of a GAME SEVEN.

I mean, are you really going to tell me that there are no players in the league that could have done better than the above? DWade killed those same Pistons. He also won a title with a Shaq that's nowhere near the Shaq Kobe had and he was also playing arguably the best ball in the NBA before he went down.

Yet no matter what any other player does, or what Kobe DOESN'T do, we're just supposed to accept that he's the best and blah blah blah.

The bottom line is, Kobe fans want it to be like when Michael Jordan dominated the NBA. They want Kobe to be far and above the best player in the game but if you examine everything there just isn't that dominant player anymore.

As many arguments as people can give for Kobe being the best, you can give for Nash, Dirk, Wade, Bron, Duncan being the best. I don't know why his fans can't accept him being ONE Of the better players in the game until he actually does something that separates himself from the rest of the league inarguably.

I won't hold my breath for that.

[dejordan]

but knoe... greg anthony said that kobe was already better than jordan at everything except defense. how dare any of us disagree with the great greg anthony?:roll:

[bleedinpurple]

^ well, today on national TV, Pat Riley (who is generally regarded as a knowledge basketball mind) said Kobe is the closest thing to MJ in the game today and deserves the comparison AND that DWade, Lebron, & Carmelo are presently striving to be so considered.

that's good enuf for me.

[Knoe Itawl]

^ well, today on national TV, Pat Riley (who is generally regarded as a knowledge basketball mind) said Kobe is the closest thing to MJ in the game today and deserves the comparison AND that DWade, Lebron, & Carmelo are presently striving to be so considered.

that's good enuf for me.

I would bet my life savings I could out argue Pat Riley on that point. There is just no reasonable argument that can put Bryant in Jordan's league.

The only people who would think so are people who haven't thought it through, or are his fanatics.

Besides, what does it say for Kobe that two third year players (Wade and Bron) are largely regarded on his level when he's a 10 year vet. He SHOULD be way ahead of them given how long he's been in the league but that just ain't the case.

[dejordan]

^ well, today on national TV, Pat Riley (who is generally regarded as a knowledge basketball mind) said Kobe is the closest thing to MJ in the game today and deserves the comparison AND that DWade, Lebron, & Carmelo are presently striving to be so considered.

that's good enuf for me.
i actually heard pat say that. i was surprised both that he ranked mj over magic and that he ranked kobe over wade, but his words were very clear.

[Knoe Itawl]

but knoe... greg anthony said that kobe was already better than jordan at everything except defense. how dare any of us disagree with the great greg anthony?:roll:

Greg Anthony is an idiot, who I'm sure holds some kind of grudge against Jordan. His arguments don't even make sense (not that any arguments putting Kobe in Jordan's league do).

I would just ask Greg if he can look me in the eye with a straight face and tell me he sees Jordan peforming like that against the Pistons with a monster Shaq on his team in the FINALS.

[hwliuLAP]

As many arguments as people can give for Kobe being the best, you can give for Nash, Dirk, Wade, Bron, Duncan being the best. I don't know why his fans can't accept him being ONE Of the better players in the game until he actually does something that separates himself from the rest of the league inarguably.

I won't hold my breath for that.


I agree with the fact that he hasn't done anything to just SEPERATE himself from the others

but the fact that he's been doing this for many many years
is why many coaches would rank him higher than others

[rs98762001]

^ well, today on national TV, Pat Riley (who is generally regarded as a knowledge basketball mind) said Kobe is the closest thing to MJ in the game today and deserves the comparison AND that DWade, Lebron, & Carmelo are presently striving to be so considered.

that's good enuf for me.

Maybe I'm not a "knowledge basketball mind," but it's not good enuf for me. Kobe's a great player but certainly not on a pedestal separated from today's other great players.

Having said that, the Lakers teams around him in the post-Shaq years have been filled with weaknesses and holes, and until he ever gets a consistent sidekick and role players around him, he'll languish in mediocrity. That's not a knock against him. It's just that there's no such thing as a successful one-man team in basketball.

[hwliuLAP]

I would just ask Greg if he can look me in the eye with a straight face and tell me he sees Jordan peforming like that against the Pistons with a monster Shaq on his team in the FINALS.


so people want to say Shaq was the #1 option on that team
and if I remember it right, the only game the Lakers won was because of Kobe
either blame it on Shaq for losing
or admit that Kobe was a big part of the Dynasty wasn't just a sidekick

[Knoe Itawl]

so people want to say Shaq was the #1 option on that team
and if I remember it right, the only game the Lakers won was because of Kobe
either blame it on Shaq for losing
or admit that Kobe was a big part of the Dynasty wasn't just a sidekick

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. You're going to try to make excuses for Kobe's GARBAGE Finals performance against the Pistons.

These kinds of comments just tell me that there is no reasoning with some of his fans, because if you're going to make excuses for a performance that obviously awful, you'll say anything to make him look better even if it's as foolish as what you said above.

[RidonKs]

The thing that's so annoying about the Kobe Cult is that they blatantly ignore things they would crucify other players for. The bottom line is that apart from putting up some pretty stats here and there, Kobe has shown no more as a leader of a team than Iverson, TMac, Bron, etc. He just gets to be the best no matter what I guess just cause they say so.

Let's say it was TMac, or Wade or Bron or Dirk who in the past few years had:

A. Choked in the Finals against the Pistons the way Kobe did (the Jordan comparisons have always been absurd, but please try to imagine Michael Jordan peforming like that in the FINALS with Shaq on his team).

B. Going 1-19 during a stretch the following year (Remember how Bryant Fanatics crucified TMac for the 0-19?)

C. Choking away a 3-1 lead while wilting in the second half of a GAME SEVEN.

I mean, are you really going to tell me that there are no players in the league that could have done better than the above? DWade killed those same Pistons. He also won a title with a Shaq that's nowhere near the Shaq Kobe had and he was also playing arguably the best ball in the NBA before he went down.

Yet no matter what any other player does, or what Kobe DOESN'T do, we're just supposed to accept that he's the best and blah blah blah.

The bottom line is, Kobe fans want it to be like when Michael Jordan dominated the NBA. They want Kobe to be far and above the best player in the game but if you examine everything there just isn't that dominant player anymore.

As many arguments as people can give for Kobe being the best, you can give for Nash, Dirk, Wade, Bron, Duncan being the best. I don't know why his fans can't accept him being ONE Of the better players in the game until he actually does something that separates himself from the rest of the league inarguably.

I won't hold my breath for that.

I bolded the parts of your post that are just subjective drivel, speaking of "Kobe groopies" that don't even exist anymore.

And LA went 2-19 during that stretch, with Kobe missing two of the games. So technically, it was 2-17. Still not good, but I just thought I'd point that out.

[bleedinpurple]

I would bet my life savings I could out argue Pat Riley on that point. There is just no reasonable argument that can put Bryant in Jordan's league.

The only people who would think so are people who haven't thought it through, or are his fanatics.

Besides, what does it say for Kobe that two third year players (Wade and Bron) are largely regarded on his level when he's a 10 year vet. He SHOULD be way ahead of them given how long he's been in the league but that just ain't the case.

ummm, you are knoe Pat Riley.
argue all you want, but I would sooner believe DWade's own coach and championship coach.

[B-Low]

LOL @ PB having the nerve to put the word "challenge" in his thread title. Did you forget your other challege man?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32119

Cuuuuuuuuuuuuurtis!!!

[RidonKs]

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. You're going to try to make excuses for Kobe's GARBAGE Finals performance against the Pistons.

These kinds of comments just tell me that there is no reasoning with some of his fans, because if you're going to make excuses for a performance that obviously awful, you'll say anything to make him look better even if it's as foolish as what you said above.

He brings up a fair point though, that you didn't answer. Instead, you just go on rants about Kobe fans.

If Shaq gets ALL the credit (and from people like you - I can't stress the word "all" enough) when LA won, why does Kobe take all of your criticism when LA lost the Finals. Kobe obviously played badly, but Shaq's the "MDE". He should've taken contol of the team. Shown some leadership skills, demanded the ball. Hell, Phil Jackson should've demanded that. People talk about Phil's major role in what the Lakers are doing today, yet don't address the fact that he didn't do anything in that series? But of course, let's just blame it all on Kobe.

[bleedinpurple]

Maybe I'm not a "knowledge basketball mind," but it's not good enuf for me. Kobe's a great player but certainly not on a pedestal separated from today's other great players.

Having said that, the Lakers teams around him in the post-Shaq years have been filled with weaknesses and holes, and until he ever gets a consistent sidekick and role players around him, he'll languish in mediocrity. That's not a knock against him. It's just that there's no such thing as a successful one-man team in basketball.

completely agree with your second paragraph. until he gets some real talent, he will languish in the same boat as KG and Pierce.

[DreamRockets]

He brings up a fair point though, that you didn't answer. Instead, you just go on rants about Kobe fans.

If Shaq gets ALL the credit (and from people like you - I can't stress the word "all" enough) when LA won, why does Kobe take all of your criticism when LA lost the Finals. Kobe obviously played badly, but Shaq's the "MDE". He should've taken contol of the team. Shown some leadership skills, demanded the ball. Hell, Phil Jackson should've demanded that. People talk about Phil's major role in what the Lakers are doing today, yet don't address the fact that he didn't do anything in that series? But of course, let's just blame it all on Kobe.

oh but shaq did demand the ball, he had 34 pt on 80%shooting one game and La still lost, he had 36 pt on 77% shooting another game along with 20 rebounds and the lakers still lost, shaq demanded the ball a lot, but "whoever" was handling the ball most of the time just didnt pass it to shaq enough, he was more worried with his free lance offensive assault which ended in the lakers losing to a poor team who was barely in contention.

in the games LA got shaq the ball he averaged 33 ppg on 68% shooting, the games he didnt get the ball he only got 14 and 20 pts, and he took less than 15 shots both games.

[Knoe Itawl]

ummm, you are knoe Pat Riley.
argue all you want, but I would sooner believe DWade's own coach and championship coach.

And others have said Nash is the best player in the game. So what? I'm sure you don't agree with that do you? I can make my own arguments and unless you're prepared to go point by point with me on why it's absurd to compare Jordan to Kobe you need to just save all the "So and so said" GARBAGE because you sound intellectually challenged.

Do you have your OWN mind? Can you make your OWN arguments or do you just parrot what someone ELSE says?

[Knoe Itawl]

He brings up a fair point though, that you didn't answer. Instead, you just go on rants about Kobe fans.

If Shaq gets ALL the credit (and from people like you - I can't stress the word "all" enough) when LA won, why does Kobe take all of your criticism when LA lost the Finals. Kobe obviously played badly, but Shaq's the "MDE". He should've taken contol of the team. Shown some leadership skills, demanded the ball. Hell, Phil Jackson should've demanded that. People talk about Phil's major role in what the Lakers are doing today, yet don't address the fact that he didn't do anything in that series? But of course, let's just blame it all on Kobe.

Dude was shooting 60% and averaging like 28ppg while Kobe was not getting him the ball turning it over and throwing up garbage.

Besides, we're not talking about who's fault it was the series was lost. We'r talking about whether any SANE person can imagine a prime Michael Jordan performing that way in the FINALS with Shaq on his team.

You can try and twist it and throw smoke screens and all the rest of it, but you'll never get around that point.

Go ahead and say that you can picture Jordan peforming that badly in the Finals. I can't wait.

[Knoe Itawl]

Having said that, the Lakers teams around him in the post-Shaq years have been filled with weaknesses and holes, and until he ever gets a consistent sidekick and role players around him, he'll languish in mediocrity. That's not a knock against him. It's just that there's no such thing as a successful one-man team in basketball.

And this argument could have been made for Pierce, TMac, Iverson, etc. etc. over the years yet for some reason Bryant gets to be so special that it's belabored for him.

[RidonKs]

Dude was shooting 60% and averaging like 28ppg while Kobe was not getting him the ball turning it over and throwing up garbage.

Besides, we're not talking about who's fault it was the series was lost. We'r talking about whether any SANE person can imagine a prime Michael Jordan performing that way in the FINALS with Shaq on his team.

You can try and twist it and throw smoke screens and all the rest of it, but you'll never get around that point.

Go ahead and say that you can picture Jordan peforming that badly in the Finals. I can't wait.

Knoe, you're the only one comparing Kobe's career to Jordan's. Who else has? Does ANYONE else int this thread, MAJOR Kobe fans included, think Kobe is as good as Jordan?


*dead silence*

And you have your answer.

[bleedinpurple]

And others have said Nash is the best player in the game. So what? I'm sure you don't agree with that do you? I can make my own arguments and unless you're prepared to go point by point with me on why it's absurd to compare Jordan to Kobe you need to just save all the "So and so said" GARBAGE because you sound intellectually challenged.

Do you have your OWN mind? Can you make your OWN arguments or do you just parrot what someone ELSE says?

read earlier in this thread for my thoughts on the topic.
I brought up Pat Riley's comments because they are pertinent to this topic and were stated today. But with your many years playing and coaching in the NBA, I'm sure you knoe much better that Riley.

[Knoe Itawl]

Knoe, you're the only one comparing Kobe's career to Jordan's. Who else has? Does ANYONE else int this thread, MAJOR Kobe fans included, think Kobe is as good as Jordan?


*dead silence*

And you have your answer.

Uh, this dude bleedinpurple was talking about Riley's comments, and Greg Anthony's views were also brought up which is why I mentioned it.

Look at bleed's post where he's STILL talking about what Pat Riley said as if it's the gospel.

Forget about whether Knoe Itawl could, you honestly don't think Loki and blaze could destroy any argument Riley could make for Kobe being as good as Jordan to this point?

But I guess according to bleedinpurple, that doesn't matter because we're not NBA coaches. :rolleyes:

[RidonKs]

And this argument could have been made for Pierce, TMac, Iverson, etc. etc. over the years yet for some reason Bryant gets to be so special that it's belabored for him.

Bryant gets to be special because HE was the one who one three championships. Not Tmac. Not Pierce. Not Iverson. And don't give me that garbage of any of them winning with Shaq. They very well might've, but the DIDN'T. Since when does the way players careers are judged take into consideration what might've happened if they had've been on a different team?

What if KG had've played with MJ instead of Pippen? Probably some pretty damn good results if you ask me. How about Shawn Marion in place of James Worthy? Shawn Marion in place of James Worthy? James was great and all, but Shawn could do pretty much the same thing. Run the break, rebound, play defense. Does that mean Shawn's as good as James? Hell no it doesn't. Do you want to know why it doesn't Knoe?

Because only things you ACTUALLY ACCOMPLISH are taken into consideration. And Kobe ACTUALLY ACCOMPLISHED three championships. He played damn well to get them too. Did you watch any of those three championships Knoe? Did you see how many close games there were? Did you notice how many big shots Kobe hit? Sure it's nice to sit here and think yeah, Pierce or Iverson would've easily made those same shots. Problem is, we don't know that. We have no way of knowing that things would've gone the same way.

Maybe Iverson doesn't make the right play and throw that perfect ally-oop pass to Shaq for the dunk to seal the win against Portland in game 7. The Blazers storm back and knock LA out of the playoffs. Perhaps Pierce doesn't take over in overtime in game four agaisnt the Pacers, and Indi ties the series up, gaining momentum as well. They go on to take the chip. Maybe Tmac decides to shoot a fadeaway instead of passing the ball to Horry for the open three in the corner in the first round against Portland the following year. He misses, and LA loses the game. Things change, and LA doesn't get those three championships.

You can't choose what to include in history and what not to include. Kobe played a major role in those championships, as proved by his big plays throughout them, and you just can't pretend that they never happened.

[Free]

read earlier in this thread for my thoughts on the topic.
I brought up Pat Riley's comments because they are pertinent to this topic and were stated today. But with your many years playing and coaching in the NBA, I'm sure you knoe much better that Riley.

Those comments were made on Christmas day. I'm pretty sure Pat was speaking in terms of career accomplishments rather than where LeBron, Wade and Kobe stand today which is why he compared Kobe to Jordan. Not to mention, as much as I respect Pat and Kobe, Kobe is NOT on Jordan's level.

[bleedinpurple]

Uh, this dude bleedinpurple was talking about Riley's comments, and Greg Anthony's views were also brought up which is why I mentioned it.

Look at bleed's post where he's STILL talking about what Pat Riley said as if it's the gospel.

Forget about whether Knoe Itawl could, you honestly don't think Loki and blaze could destroy any argument Riley could make for Kobe being as good as Jordan to this point?

But I guess according to bleedinpurple, that doesn't matter because we're not NBA coaches. :rolleyes:

Dude, before jumping into a thread on the 13th page of the debate, you should probably go back and read the posts. I simply shared what Riley said today. Knoe, I don't expect you or anyone else to agree with him. I happen to agree.

[DreamRockets]

there isnt an argument here.

games in which shaq had touches: 33 ppg, 68% shooting, 12.7 rpg.

games in which kobe decided to be kobe: shaq with 17 ppg, 8 rpg, 54% shooting.

does it get more clear ? shaq should have averaged 40 ppg and taken around 25 shots per game, instead he took around 14-15 shots and only ended up with 27 ppg, ben played him straight up and that was a welcome for the lakers to take advantage of that and pound the ball to shaq all night long, instead we all know kobe had different intentions.


Perhaps Pierce doesn't take over in overtime in game four agaisnt the Pacers, and Indi ties the series up

lol, shaq had 36/21 that game, he dictated that the game wasnt a blowout in the first place, so put down your lakerette pom-poms before kobe giving all the credit for something shaq paved the way to.

[RidonKs]

Uh, this dude bleedinpurple was talking about Riley's comments, and Greg Anthony's views were also brought up which is why I mentioned it.

Look at bleed's post where he's STILL talking about what Pat Riley said as if it's the gospel.

Forget about whether Knoe Itawl could, you honestly don't think Loki and blaze could destroy any argument Riley could make for Kobe being as good as Jordan to this point?

But I guess according to bleedinpurple, that doesn't matter because we're not NBA coaches. :rolleyes:


said Kobe is the closest thing to MJ

Not that Kobe was as good, but that Kobe was the closest thing. I agree with that. I don't agree with the fact that Pat Riley's word is law, but I do agree that, of the players today, Kobe is closest to Jordan. And if you disagree that's fine.

[bleedinpurple]

Those comments were made on Christmas day. I'm pretty sure Pat was speaking in terms of career accomplishments rather than where LeBron, Wade and Kobe stand today which is why he compared Kobe to Jordan. Not to mention, as much as I respect Pat and Kobe, Kobe is NOT on Jordan's level.

Totally agree that Kobe is NOT on Jordan's level...and not even close.
Riley did not say Kobe is on Jordan's level (in fact, he said no one is on Jordan's level), but rather Kobe is the closest and worthy of the comparison.

[Knoe Itawl]

Bryant gets to be special because HE was the one who one three championships. Not Tmac. Not Pierce. Not Iverson. And don't give me that garbage of any of them winning with Shaq. They very well might've, but the DIDN'T. Since when does the way players careers are judged take into consideration what might've happened if they had've been on a different team?

What if KG had've played with MJ instead of Pippen? Probably some pretty damn good results if you ask me. How about Shawn Marion in place of James Worthy? Shawn Marion in place of James Worthy? James was great and all, but Shawn could do pretty much the same thing. Run the break, rebound, play defense. Does that mean Shawn's as good as James? Hell no it doesn't. Do you want to know why it doesn't Knoe?

Because only things you ACTUALLY ACCOMPLISH are taken into consideration. And Kobe ACTUALLY ACCOMPLISHED three championships. He played damn well to get them too. Did you watch any of those three championships Knoe? Did you see how many close games there were? Did you notice how many big shots Kobe hit? Sure it's nice to sit here and think yeah, Pierce or Iverson would've easily made those same shots. Problem is, we don't know that. We have no way of knowing that things would've gone the same way.

Maybe Iverson doesn't make the right play and throw that perfect ally-oop pass to Shaq for the dunk to seal the win against Portland in game 7. The Blazers storm back and knock LA out of the playoffs. Perhaps Pierce doesn't take over in overtime in game four agaisnt the Pacers, and Indi ties the series up, gaining momentum as well. They go on to take the chip. Maybe Tmac decides to shoot a fadeaway instead of passing the ball to Horry for the open three in the corner in the first round against Portland the following year. He misses, and LA loses the game. Things change, and LA doesn't get those three championships.

You can't choose what to include in history and what not to include. Kobe played a major role in those championships, as proved by his big plays throughout them, and you just can't pretend that they never happened.

The point is that the championships are nice and all but he doesn't get to coast on them the rest of his career, considering he was the second fiddle on those teams. Now he's in the franchise player role, one that he never had in those days. I know you want to pretend that some of the negative things that have happened in his career shouldn't be factored against him but it ALL has to go in when discussing him.

And to this point, he just hasn't shown me, and many others, that he's far and away the best player in the game as some would vehemently suggest.

[PleezeBelieve]

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:, at my thread.

But for real, this type of sheer determination displayed by DreamRockets has not been seen on this board in quite a long time. I applaud you. :applause:

[DreamRockets]

thanks :cheers:

[RidonKs]

there isnt an argument here.

games in which shaq had touches: 33 ppg, 68% shooting, 12.7 rpg.

games in which kobe decided to be kobe: shaq with 17 ppg, 8 rpg, 54% shooting.

does it get more clear ? shaq should have averaged 40 ppg and taken around 25 shots per game, instead he took around 14-15 shots and only ended up with 27 ppg, ben played him straight up and that was a welcome for the lakers to take advantage of that and pound the ball to shaq all night long, instead we all know kobe had different intentions.



lol, shaq had 36/21 that game, he dictated that the game wasnt a blowout in the first place, so put down your lakerette pom-poms before kobe giving all the credit for something shaq paved the way to.

So it's all Kobe's fault that Shaq didn't get touches? In Shaq's 36/21 game, the rest of the Lakers (excluding Kobe) took 32 shots. Kobe took 25. Why aren't the rest of the role players blamed, at least partially, for not giving the ball ino Shaq more?

And what about game three? Kobe took only 13 shots. What the hell was Shaq doing? He had Kobe not "ball hoggin'", why didn't he take advantage and get his shots up? Why did he ONLY GO FOR 14/8 ON 14 SHOTS? Maybe it's because Kobe doesn't dictate exactly how many shots Shaq gets. Because Kobe can't be completely blamed (although certainly partially) for the loss in the 04 Finals.

[RidonKs]

And to this point, he just hasn't shown me, and many others, that he's far and away the best player in the game as some would vehemently suggest.

I'm only going to address this part, because I agree with the rest.

Who are these "some"? Who says Kobe is "far and away" the best player? Go make a thread in the Laker forum asking, NOT if the Kobe fans in there think he's the best player, but if they think that everyone else pales in comparison to Kobe. Go ahead, do it. I'd be interested to see the results.

[DreamRockets]

So it's all Kobe's fault that Shaq didn't get touches? In Shaq's 36/21 game, the rest of the Lakers (excluding Kobe) took 32 shots. Kobe took 25. Why aren't the rest of the role players blamed, at least partially, for not giving the ball ino Shaq more?

because kobe freelanced and handled the ball 24/7 that whole series, i barely saw fisher, payton or malone touching the ball.


And what about game three? Kobe took only 13 shots. What the hell was Shaq doing? He had Kobe not "ball hoggin'", why didn't he take advantage and get his shots up? Why did he ONLY GO FOR 14/8 ON 14 SHOTS? Maybe it's because Kobe doesn't dictate exactly how many shots Shaq gets. Because Kobe can't be completely blamed (although certainly partially) for the loss in the 04 Finals.

ok, one bad game for shaq in the series, kobe had 4 ATROCIOUS games, see the trend ?

[RidonKs]

because kobe freelanced and handled the ball 24/7 that whole series, i barely saw fisher, payton or malone touching the ball.

Says your obvious agenda.

[rzp]

damn malone, fisher and george were injuried in those series :cry:
lucky pistons (i can say spurs,wolves and kings were better than pistons)

[RidonKs]

No you can't. The Pistons played great and destroyed us that series. Might've been closer without the injuries, and we might've even won (cue "not with Kobe chucking"), but don't underestimate how well they played.

[bleedinpurple]

Says your obvious agenda.

Dude, Kobe ain't any good. You know why? Because he hasn't won the championship without Shaq!
(that's the fundamental feeble argument on this thread)

[RidonKs]

Dude, Kobe ain't any good. You know why? Because he hasn't won the championship without Shaq!
(that's the fundamental feeble argument on this thread)

Yeah, anyone who doesn't get a championship within the first two years of being on a rebuilding team just doesn't belong in the league.

[bleedinpurple]

No you can't. The Pistons played great and destroyed us that series. Might've been closer without the injuries, and we might've even won (cue "not with Kobe chucking"), but don't underestimate how well they played.

true. they shut down Shaq. great D, esp by Big Ben. Lakers were not going to win that one, even if they were healthy.

[DLeagueWannabe]

Kobe Bryant is soooooooo nice that Charles Barkley, Michael Jordan, and Magic Johnson all said he's the best player in the League...all you guys swear by the "all time greats", why don't you listen to them when they say that?....

[CavaliersFTW]

DAMMIT, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!

Here it is another failed year for this guy as the lead player on his team. Now it's been three years since Shaq has left, and frankly, I'm fed up with the unwarranted public adulation this guy receives. For all intents and purposes, this guy has turned into the Kevin Garnett of the guard position. No rings...no significant postseason victories...no signs of being able to elevate his teammates to a championship level, and yet I have to hear people like GOBB easily say that Kobe is the best player in the NBA without a slither of hesitation. Now I'm here to say...F*CK THAT, NOT ANYMORE!!!!

Im telling you, this is where the buck stops. This guy has had three years to justify his ranking amoung the elite of the All-Time Greats and he simply has not done it. This guy is going on 30 years old and he hasn't even gotten out the first freaking round of the playoffs by himself. NO MORE EXCUSES!!!! Stop telling me about injuries. Stop telling me about the depth of the Western Conference. STOP!!!! PLEASE, JUST STOP. It's time to call a spade a spade.
81 point game, 35ppg season, 2 NBA titles, 2 NBA FMVP's, 1 NBA MVP

Kind of a late bump but ...Time to hold this L

[Milbuck]

lol

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

OP on the level of Knoeitawl. Just another retarded chipmunk.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

Is PB every right about anything? He's like aggressive, troll, konex.

[JohnFreeman]

OP is not a ******

[24-Inch_Chrome]

OP is not a ******

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121029005816/spongebob/images/0/06/Opposite_Day.jpg

[Doranku]

:oldlol:

[The Iron Sheik]

ridonks is a lakers fan?

[navy]

Is PB every right about anything? He's like aggressive, troll, konex.
He's a troll so Im not sure it counts. Konex is legit a jinx and believes everything he says.

[ImKobe]

2 rings
2x Finals MVP
2x scoring champ
regular season MVP

Shaq post Kobe

1 ring
0 fmvp
0 mvp

[SpecialQue]

2 rings
2x Finals MVP
2x scoring champ
regular season MVP

Shaq post Kobe

1 ring
0 fmvp
0 mvp

If Kobe's rings with Shaq "don't count," then that sidekick ring Shaq got by riding Wade sure as shit doesn't count.

[CavaliersFTW]

:lol

[dubeta]

OP was right, why are people acting like he got ethered? :applause:

[TheMarkMadsen]

:roll: :roll:

Kobe did more without Shaq than Shaq could ever dream about doing without Kobe.

[dubeta]

:roll: :roll:

Kobe did more without Shaq than Shaq could ever dream about doing without Kobe.

Fisher did more (Finals trip), than Kobe could ever do without him