Why did the bulls still win 55 games without jordan?

[livinglegend]

Shouldnt they have done worse without the "GOAt"? Stacked?

[Nuff Said]

Did they get a ring?

[BoutPractice]

What if - and this is just a what if, purely hypothetical question - but what if the greatest player of all time also happened to play for a great team?

[K Xerxes]

They did do worse without the GOAT.

Does it really matter considering the Bulls won 6 championships with him as the leader between 91-98?

[TheMarkMadsen]

Because Pippen is an all time great player which defenses hadn't ever had to really game plan for before this. By the next season other teams had figured it out and the Bulls struggled

[livinglegend]

Did they get a ring?
Actually, they were pretty close

[CelticBaller]

they won 72 with him

[Uncle Drew]

Actually, they were pretty close
Close =/= winning.

[CelticBaller]

Close =/= winning.
and no they weren't close, they didn't even make the finals :facepalm

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Shouldnt they have done worse without the "GOAt"? Stacked?


They did do worse without the GOAT.

Does it really matter considering the Bulls won 6 championships with him as the leader between 91-98?

A-A-A-ND....DONE!

[moe94]

Because Pippen is an all time great player which defenses hadn't ever had to really game plan for before this. By the next season other teams had figured it out and the Bulls struggled

But Pippen was a fringe all-star player who was crafted by Jordan, who would amount to nothing without him.
hilarious

[TheMarkMadsen]

But Pippen was a fringe all-star player who was crafted by Jordan, who would amount to nothing without him.
hilarious

I know you're being sarcastic but for those who dont, No, that is not true

[MadSolar]

Shouldnt they have done worse without the "GOAt"? Stacked?
Yea the Bulls with MJ were UNBEATABLE in the 90's. That 1996 Bulls team went 72-10 GOAT Team.


Is that supposed to hurt MJ? Hell yea they'd spank this heat team. MJ, Pippen, Rodman > LBJ, Wade, Bosh

[K Xerxes]

But Pippen was a fringe all-star player who was crafted by Jordan, who would amount to nothing without him.
hilarious

Admitting Pippen was a great player - and that the Bulls had great teams in those championship runs - does nothing to delegitimize what Jordan did or how great he was as an individual player.

[iamgine]

Bulls were a great team, with or without Jordan.

[poido123]

Why is Jordan/Bulls always on your mind bro?

To answer your thread question, it's because the team still functioned at a high level without their best player, much like the Spurs, the current Bulls and to some extent the Heat. Players like Kukoc, Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong were still on the team with Grant and BJ awarded their first allstar appearances that year, so they had little to no chemistry issues and were able to step up and play well led by Pippen with a very good supporting cast around him.

[Fresh Kid]

why did lebronna didnt win any rings without wade?

[97 bulls]

What if - and this is just a what if, purely hypothetical question - but what if the greatest player of all time also happened to play for a great team?
This^^^^^^

Why can't the remaining players just get credit for how that season turned out. The Coaches as well.

The fact that they won 55 games before bowing out to the eventual Eastern Conference Champs in seven hard fought games, then they (the Knicks) lost in Seven to the eventual Champs, lends more credibility to the Bulls winning 72 games and being the greatest ever and

[Droid101]

they won 72 with him
Turning a 16 win team into a 32 win team isn't that tough if you're a good player.

Turning a 55 win team into a 72 win team is goddamn unheard of.

[r0drig0lac]

Bulls was a great team without jordan, and jordan is still the GOAT
for discussion

[kobeef24]

Because Pippen is an all time great player which defenses hadn't ever had to really game plan for before this. By the next season other teams had figured it out and the Bulls struggled

Pippen was in the league for a long time already. This wasn't Linsanity. Trust me, teams had a read on him. He gets severely underrated by anyone that isn't a Jordan hater.

[poido123]

Turning a 16 win team into a 32 win team isn't that tough if you're a good player.

Turning a 55 win team into a 72 win team is goddamn unheard of.


It's actually NEVER happened :lol

[Marlo_Stanfield]

its a well known fact among knowledgeable basketball fanatics that Jordan while being a great player was also carried by a fantastic team that covered up most of his flaws.
He`s still the 4th best player ever so i dont know what OP is trying to tell us:confusedshrug:

[Nikola_]

highest ppg dropoff in recent history which suited their style of play, from 105 to 101 ppg

[CelticBaller]

its a well known fact among knowledgeable basketball fanatics that Jordan while being a great player was also carried by a fantastic team that covered up most of his flaws.
He`s still the 4th best player ever so i dont know what OP is trying to tell us:confusedshrug:
this 55 wins team won 72 with him

72

[Marlo_Stanfield]

why did lebronna didnt win any rings without wade?
2013 :biggums:

[coolhandsteve]

Generally when you have 3 All-Stars and a lot of battle tested players on your team you'll put up a pretty good record. Were it not for that phantom foul call on Pippen in Game 5 of the ECSF against the Knicks, who knows how far the Bulls could've went that year.

[jstern]

Can someone list the roster from that Bulls team and the one from the previous year. And if possible the one from the following year. I'm curious to also see why they were doing bad the following year.

[1987_Lakers]

Turning a 16 win team into a 32 win team isn't that tough if you're a good player.

Turning a 55 win team into a 72 win team is goddamn unheard of.

Rodman the GOAT.

[poido123]

Rodman the GOAT.


I miss that guy :rockon:

[Marlo_Stanfield]

everybody knows Jordan is the 4th best player ever stop trying to put him down OP:facepalm

[CelticBaller]

everybody knows Jordan is the 4th best player ever stop trying to put him down OP:facepalm
obvious baiting :facepalm

[Marlo_Stanfield]

obvious baiting :facepalm
how come i cant state my opinion to the OP?:biggums:

[CelticBaller]

how come i cant state my opinion to the OP?:biggums:
because you bring nothing into the conversation but obvious trolling.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

because you bring nothing into the conversation but obvious trolling.
Because i think Wilt,KAreem and Magic are better than him alltime? :biggums:

[TheMarkMadsen]

how come i cant state my opinion to the OP?:biggums:

because your opinion sucks :confusedshrug:

Who betta than Jordan

[Le Shaqtus]

But I thought OKC was the most stacked team of all time :cry:

[CelticBaller]

Because i think Wilt,KAreem and Magic are better than him alltime? :biggums:
Yes, because it has nothing to do with OP, and your opinion is retarded. if I were to go into a Heat thread claiming LeBron was a top 50 at best player wouldn't I be trolling?

[poido123]

Because i think Wilt,KAreem and Magic are better than him alltime? :biggums:


Wilt, Kareem sure that is plausible. But Magic? You're straight up trolling dude.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

because your opinion sucks :confusedshrug:

Who betta than Jordan
Wilt,Kareem and MAgic??
since they were all Lakers u should be happy with my opinion or do you only care about Kobe??:coleman:

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Wilt, Kareem sure that is plausible. But Magic? You're straight up trolling dude.
Magic made the finals 9 times in 11 year:biggums:
who knows how many more he would have won without HIV:coleman:

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Yes, because it has nothing to do with OP, and your opinion is retarded. if I were to go into a Heat thread claiming LeBron was a top 50 at best player wouldn't I be trolling?
that would be a straight up lie of course it would be trolling

[CelticBaller]

who knows how many more he would have won without HIV:coleman:
Not many, considering Kareem didn't play forever and the lakers got their ass handed to them in the first finals MJ played in

[TheMarkMadsen]

Wilt,Kareem and MAgic??
since they were all Lakers u should be happy with my opinion or do you only care about Kobe??:coleman:

Magic isn't better than Jordan and neither is Wilt and it's not even close.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Not many, considering Kareem didn't play forever and the lakers got their ass handed to them in the first finals MJ played in
but what if they got another great Center:coleman:

[CelticBaller]

but what if they got another great Center:coleman:
they did, and his name was Vlade Divac
not only that but they weren't many great Cs drafted in the 90s, especially around the time Magic would have played

[Asukal]

but what if they got another great Center:coleman:

what if this, what if that.... shut the hell up already! :banghead:

[Marlo_Stanfield]

what if this, what if that.... shut the hell up already! :banghead:
Okay Mr.Salty :coleman:

[sportjames23]

Shouldnt they have done worse without the "GOAt"? Stacked?


Let's see:

1) They added Toni Kukoc to a very good team. Grant and Armstrong joined Pippen in the All Star Game.

2) They still won 2 games less than the previous year when they COASTED so that Jordan and Pippen wouldn't be worn out from playing a F*CKTON of games in 1992 (NBA Finals AND the Olympics).

3) And they LOST in the Second Round WITHOUT MJ. Matter of fact, it was the only time the Bulls lost to the Knicks during their rivalry.


Funny how the fakkit MJ haters always seem to overlook these facts.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Let's see:

1) They added Toni Kukoc to a very good team. Grant and Armstrong joined Pippen in the All Star Game.

2) They still won 2 games less than the previous year when they COASTED so that Jordan and Pippen wouldn't be worn out from playing a F*CKTON of games in 1992 (NBA Finals AND the Olympics).

3) And they LOST in the Second Round WITHOUT MJ. Matter of fact, it was the only time the Bulls lost to the Knicks during their rivalry.


Funny how the fakkit MJ haters always seem to overlook these facts.
excuses:oldlol: :oldlol: :no:

[diamenz]

hey, even if the bulls did win in 94 and 95 it's still mj > bran.

[The-Legend-24]

Stacked fvcking team + shitty/weak era.

[HylianNightmare]

Because Pippen is an all time great player which defenses hadn't ever had to really game plan for before this. By the next season other teams had figured it out and the Bulls struggled


written like someone who actually watched

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Stacked fvcking team + shitty/weak era.
MJ>Kobe U mad breeh??

[JUDGE WITNESS]

cause they had the bat - scottie pip

[97 bulls]

Can someone list the roster from that Bulls team and the one from the previous year. And if possible the one from the following year. I'm curious to also see why they were doing bad the following year.
Ive listed that the roster differences many times for you. Why would now be any different?

[97 bulls]

Stacked fvcking team + shitty/weak era.
Care to explain why the Bulls won that amount of games playing in a league with the same amount of teams as the Bad Boy Pistons and late 80s Showtime Lakers?

[DatAsh]

The 93 Bulls coasted their way to 57 wins. The 94 Bulls worked their asses off for 55. I generally don't read much more into it than that.

Given Pippens maturation, the 93 Bulls were as good or better than they team that won 67 the year before.

As for how Pippen pulled 55 wins out of that cast of characters? He was good, very good.

[Round Mound]

Why? Simple....

http://static5.bornrichimages.com/wp-content/uploads/s3/2013/06/pippen_allstar_peove.jpg

[secund2nun]

MJ= overrated that's why. They replaced him with a D-league scrub and won 55 games. Imagine if they replaced his roster spot with someone like Wade, Drexler...or dare I say Lebron or Shaq.

[Round Mound]

MJ= overrated that's why. They replaced him with a D-league scrub and won 55 games. Imagine if they replaced his roster spot with someone like Wade, Drexler...or dare I say Lebron or Shaq.

MJ is Not Overrated (Only By His Stans)

Its PIPPEN Who is Underrated! Thats All!

[secund2nun]

MJ is Not Overrated (Only By His Stans)

Its PIPPEN Who is Underrated! Thats All!

I agree. Pippen is underrated probably because scoring is overrated. Most people seem to be MJ stans which is why he is overrated lol.

[AnaheimLakers24]

why is op still a fagggot when not talking about bran?

[The Genius]

Why? Simple....

http://static5.bornrichimages.com/wp-content/uploads/s3/2013/06/pippen_allstar_peove.jpg

The red shoe game! Pip was a great player.

[97 bulls]

MJ= overrated that's why. They replaced him with a D-league scrub and won 55 games. Imagine if they replaced his roster spot with someone like Wade, Drexler...or dare I say Lebron or Shaq.
This is rediculous. The 94 Bulls were essentially the same team as the 96 Bulls. The difference is an upgrade from Grant to Rodman, Kukoc had a few years under his belt, and Jordan's return.

Id say without Jordan, but with Rodman in place of Grant and Kukoc having had some NBA experience, that team wins 62 games and makes the finals. Possibly win.

[c5terror]

I agree. Pippen is underrated probably because scoring is overrated. Most people seem to be MJ stans which is why he is overrated lol.

LOL MJ made Pippen.
Pippen never score more because that's not his Job, its MJ. His Job is to Defend the best player so MJ could use is full energy in scoring.

There's two reason why he's such a good wing defender.
1. Athleticism - (Ofcourse not his first 2 season).
2. MJ - With the athleticism, MJ kick pippen(not only pippen but others too) to work his ass off every day practices.

-Pippen has the luxury to practices and improve his defense against the most skilled offensive player in the league. Its Like in Boxing, MJ is perfect sparring partner to learn and experiment the tendencies and other offensive moves.

[Smoke117]

LOL MJ made Pippen.
Pippen never score more because that's not his Job, its MJ. His Job is to Defend the best player so MJ could use is full energy in scoring.

There's two reason why he's such a good wing defender.
1. Athleticism - (Ofcourse not his first 2 season).
2. MJ - With the athleticism, MJ kick pippen(not only pippen but others too) to work his ass off every day practices.

-Pippen has the luxury to practices and improve his defense against the most skilled offensive player in the league. Its Like in Boxing, MJ is perfect sparring partner to learn and experiment the tendencies and other offensive moves.

Except the most dominate part of Scottie's defense was his help/team defense. He made the biggest impact when he was disrupting a teams entire offense, not defending the best scorer on the other team.

[c5terror]

Except the most dominate part of Scottie's defense was his help/team defense. He made the biggest impact when he was disrupting a teams entire offense, not defending the best scorer on the other team.

Yes, That's was also MJ's Job before pippen developed. MJ is also above average when it comes to disrupting offense, Pippen also learned that from MJ of course pippen make it better if not equal because of his athleticism.

-3rd alltime leader in steal
-3x steal title
-1x DPOY
-200+steal 100+block in a season(Pippen also achieve this)

[c5terror]

1998 --- MJ 34, PIP 32, ROD 36 ===Champion 62-20 75.6%
1999 --- Hakkem 36, PIP 33, Charles 35 == First Round Exit. 31-19 62%

LOL what happen to pippen i thought he'll bring that huge impact he gave on bulls.

[Droid101]

1998 --- MJ 34, PIP 32, ROD 36 ===Champion 62-20 75.6%
1999 --- Hakkem 36, PIP 33, Charles 35 == First Round Exit. 31-19 62%

LOL what happen to pippen i thought he'll bring that huge impact he gave on bulls.
Wow, someone who clearly didn't watch the playoffs that year. Pip and Chuck went crazy. Hakeem averaged 13 PPG in the playoffs. He was terrible.

You're a joke of a person.

In the third game of that series Pip had 37-13-4 and Chuck had 30-23-5. Hakeem had 5 points.

[mugiwara]

winning culture.

[97 bulls]

LOL MJ made Pippen.
Pippen never score more because that's not his Job, its MJ. His Job is to Defend the best player so MJ could use is full energy in scoring.

There's two reason why he's such a good wing defender.
1. Athleticism - (Ofcourse not his first 2 season).
2. MJ - With the athleticism, MJ kick pippen(not only pippen but others too) to work his ass off every day practices.

-Pippen has the luxury to practices and improve his defense against the most skilled offensive player in the league. Its Like in Boxing, MJ is perfect sparring partner to learn and experiment the tendencies and other offensive moves.
Pippen helped Jordans game evolve as well

Here's an excerpt from an interview with Phil Jackson

It was a late fall morning very early in Scottie Pippen’s professional career, as it was for Phil Jackson too, for that matter. The Bulls, at the time, held practices at the Deerfield Multiplex, with the coaches’ offices located just off the baseline, only 12 or so feet away from the court.

When Jackson and his staff emerged a few minutes before practice started, they saw Pippen and Michael Jordan on the side of the court working on a segment of the team’s offense called the “corner series.”

“They were making a reverse pivot and Scottie was going to the basket dunking with his left hand,” Jackson recalled in a phone interview. “Michael was trying to learn from Scottie how to get the steps right to finish with his left hand. That was something that Scottie could do which Michael wanted in his repertoire.”

Jordan himself stated that Pippen made him a better player

"I know he makes me a better player. Unfortunately, it may take awhile, after we both retire, for people to realize just how good Scottie Pippen really was." -

This crazy notion that Pippen was made by Jordan needs to die.

[Micku]

This is rediculous. The 94 Bulls were essentially the same team as the 96 Bulls. The difference is an upgrade from Grant to Rodman, Kukoc had a few years under his belt, and Jordan's return.

Id say without Jordan, but with Rodman in place of Grant and Kukoc having had some NBA experience, that team wins 62 games and makes the finals. Possibly win.

I concur, but I think with MJ the team would probably win more games with the 94 roster without Rodman considering how Pippen and Grant were playing, especially defensively. Pippen was in his prime defensively and Grant was playing his best years in 94-96. Of course you had Kerr and Toni Kukoc. And Phil Jackson was still the coach.

[Round Mound]

Pippen = Greatest Combination of Driving-Ballhandling-Finshing-Offense Creating-Passing AND 1-4 DEFENSE to Ever Play.:bowdown:

[97 bulls]

I concur, but I think with MJ the team would probably win more games with the 94 roster without Rodman considering how Pippen and Grant were playing, especially defensively. Pippen was in his prime defensively and Grant was playing his best years in 94-96. Of course you had Kerr and Toni Kukoc. And Phil Jackson was still the coach.
I like Rodman because he could dominate and take over games with his defense and rebounding. I can't see Grant dominating a series the way Rodman did Seattle. Or defend Shaq the way Rodman did.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Pippen = Greatest Combination of Driving-Ballhandling-Finshing-Offense Creating-Passing AND 1-4 DEFENSE to Ever Play.:bowdown:
that would be lebron but thanks for your input

[Micku]

I like Rodman because he could dominate and take over games with his defense and rebounding. I can't see Grant dominating a series the way Rodman did Seattle. Or defend Shaq the way Rodman did.

I'm just saying that I don't think they need Rodman with Grant playing like he did in 94 to win. But with Rodman, as you said, will dominate the game with his rebounds. Especially offense rebounds and defense.

[Soundwave]

Horace Grant was a really good role player, the Bulls were a mediocre team in 1994-95 with Pippen/Kukoc/Armstrong (a shade over .500) until Jordan returned and led them to a 13-4 finish (which is a 63 win pace), so why does Horace Grant not get any love?

The other reason the Bulls did a little better that season is honestly IMO I think some teams took them lightly that year thinking they could cruise into Chicago and mail in a win without Jordan there. The Bulls played their ass off that year because everyone was expecting them to fold and they had a massive chip on their shoulder and I think that caught more than a couple of teams by surprise.

By 1994-95 it was clear Pippen/Kukoc/Armstrong alone couldn't make the Bulls a very good team though. Teams game planned for them more carefully and the loss of Grant made them a mediocre team.

If Jordan hadn't come back that franchise was going nowhere.

[tragicbronson]

Let's see:

1) They added Toni Kukoc to a very good team. Grant and Armstrong joined Pippen in the All Star Game.

2) They still won 2 games less than the previous year when they COASTED so that Jordan and Pippen wouldn't be worn out from playing a F*CKTON of games in 1992 (NBA Finals AND the Olympics).

3) And they LOST in the Second Round WITHOUT MJ. Matter of fact, it was the only time the Bulls lost to the Knicks during their rivalry.


Funny how the fakkit MJ haters always seem to overlook these facts.

1993 Knicks Bulls series game 5 was rigged.

[Leftimage]

What if - and this is just a what if, purely hypothetical question - but what if the greatest player of all time also happened to play for a great team?

Jordan stans & Lebron haters when they read your comment :

http://i.imgur.com/bAStIyV.gif

[c5terror]

Pippen helped Jordans game evolve as well

Here's an excerpt from an interview with Phil Jackson


Jordan himself stated that Pippen made him a better player

"I know he makes me a better player. Unfortunately, it may take awhile, after we both retire, for people to realize just how good Scottie Pippen really was." -

This crazy notion that Pippen was made by Jordan needs to die.

Yeah, Jordan also benefit from pippen in their 2nd 3peat, because MJ got rusty and he's getting old, Pippen already a matured player and fully developed in 94-95 and that pippen help Jordan enhance and remake his game no doubt that's also the reason why MJ is so refine, BUT still MJ made pippen from his skinny bench warmer years up to his first ring.

[c5terror]

Wow, someone who clearly didn't watch the playoffs that year. Pip and Chuck went crazy. Hakeem averaged 13 PPG in the playoffs. He was terrible.

You're a joke of a person.

In the third game of that series Pip had 37-13-4 and Chuck had 30-23-5. Hakeem had 5 points.

So the **** what? That's not my point. I couldn't careless if they both score 100ppg 100rpg that series. The fact is that they still lost 1st Round and the pippen that they say impact the bulls couldn't even save the rockets no matter what stat he produce

[Audio One]

Magic isn't better than Jordan and neither is Wilt and it's not even close.

What makes Jordan better than Stilt? Chamberlain's the better scorer, passer, defender, rebounder. Wilt has 56 NBA single-season records to Jordan's 4. Wilt nearly QUADRUPLED the number of 50 point games Jordan had in his career. Wilt led the league in assists, fg%, minutes and rebounds 29 times to Jordan's Zero. He also led the league in assists one year, averaging 8.6 apg. Jordan never led the league in apg (and mind you, this is when assists were easier to accumulate for Jordan). He owns 6 of the 9 70+ point games in history - Jordan has zero. He topped Jordan's best scoring season three times and Wilt's best scoring season is 13 ppg higher than Jordan's.

Player top 6 prime years averages:
Michael Jordan(1986-1987 season to 1991-1992 season)
33.3ppg, 6.3rpg, 6.1apg, 52.2%FG, 29.6%3PT, 84.7%FT

Wilt Chamberlain(1959-1960 season to 1964-1965 season)
40.6ppg, 24.9rpg, 3.1apg, 50.7%FG, 55.3%FT

And at his peak, he averaged about 24/24/9, and took out the stacked Boston team, with a strong GOAT candidate leading it, Jordan has nothing on that.

[b0bab0i]

Yea the Bulls with MJ were UNBEATABLE in the 90's. That 1996 Bulls team went 72-10 GOAT Team.


Is that supposed to hurt MJ? Hell yea they'd spank this heat team. MJ, Pippen, Rodman > LBJ, Wade, Bosh
They lost in 95 with Jordan.

[PsychoBe]

What makes Jordan better than Stilt? Chamberlain's the better scorer, passer, defender, rebounder. Wilt has 56 NBA single-season records to Jordan's 4. Wilt nearly QUADRUPLED the number of 50 point games Jordan had in his career. Wilt led the league in assists, fg%, minutes and rebounds 29 times to Jordan's Zero. He also led the league in assists one year, averaging 8.6 apg. Jordan never led the league in apg (and mind you, this is when assists were easier to accumulate for Jordan). He owns 6 of the 9 70+ point games in history - Jordan has zero. He topped Jordan's best scoring season three times and Wilt's best scoring season is 13 ppg higher than Jordan's.

Player top 6 prime years averages:
Michael Jordan(1986-1987 season to 1991-1992 season)
33.3ppg, 6.3rpg, 6.1apg, 52.2%FG, 29.6%3PT, 84.7%FT

Wilt Chamberlain(1959-1960 season to 1964-1965 season)
40.6ppg, 24.9rpg, 3.1apg, 50.7%FG, 55.3%FT

jordan has the highest ppg average in nba history has more rings and never lost in the finals. there are legitimate candidates vs jordan but wilts not one of them

And at his peak, he averaged about 24/24/9, and took out the stacked Boston team, with a strong GOAT candidate leading it, Jordan has nothing on that.

jordan averaged more points has more rings and never lost in the finals.

[Audio One]

jordan averaged more points has more rings and never lost in the finals.

Oh please, those padded-stats must look nice, getting his ass handed to him in the first round for 3 straight years, and another 2nd round exit. 1-9 playoff record w/o Pippen, and missed the playoffs more often. The teams he beat wouldn't even make the top-20 teams of all-time. Chamberlain consistenly got his teams further in the post-season, and spent half his career in the Finals, can Jordan say that?

Russell
Thurmond
Alcindor
Lovellette
Reed
Gilmore
Cowens
Heinsohn
Lanier
Unseld

Who was Jordan's competition, Drexler? :lol

Everybody knows Chicago only started winning because of Father Time. Stilt took out his comtemporary in his prime, in a strong era, can't say the same for Mike

[Audio One]

And can anyone find me evidence of Wilt quitting in a game like Jordan did against Detroit in 89? Game 5, Doug Collins complained that Mike was ball-hogging, so he mails it in that game, look it up. Always hear how Pippen quit on a play, how Kobe quit in a half, and how Wilt chokes, but this ****** quits on an entire GAME! :roll:

[Marlo_Stanfield]

What makes Jordan better than Stilt? Chamberlain's the better scorer, passer, defender, rebounder. Wilt has 56 NBA single-season records to Jordan's 4. Wilt nearly QUADRUPLED the number of 50 point games Jordan had in his career. Wilt led the league in assists, fg%, minutes and rebounds 29 times to Jordan's Zero. He also led the league in assists one year, averaging 8.6 apg. Jordan never led the league in apg (and mind you, this is when assists were easier to accumulate for Jordan). He owns 6 of the 9 70+ point games in history - Jordan has zero. He topped Jordan's best scoring season three times and Wilt's best scoring season is 13 ppg higher than Jordan's.

Player top 6 prime years averages:
Michael Jordan(1986-1987 season to 1991-1992 season)
33.3ppg, 6.3rpg, 6.1apg, 52.2%FG, 29.6%3PT, 84.7%FT

Wilt Chamberlain(1959-1960 season to 1964-1965 season)
40.6ppg, 24.9rpg, 3.1apg, 50.7%FG, 55.3%FT

And at his peak, he averaged about 24/24/9, and took out the stacked Boston team, with a strong GOAT candidate leading it, Jordan has nothing on that.
wow u just went in hard on them:bowdown: :bowdown: :applause:

[97 bulls]

It's very simple for the un-educated:

The 1994 Bulls sans MJ were 3x deep worth of championship experience. Were doubted from the start without Jordan, so the entire roster played with a chip on their shoulder to prove their value without Mike. Little brother syndrome. They added Kukoc off the bench to give added firepower. Pippen made the leap to his peak value.

That's why they won 55 games, and then got booted in the 2nd round. Why does everyone act like that is such a miraculous feat? The difference between the Bulls w/o Jordan is 2nd round knock out, and with him they were breaking records winning consecutive three peats, the most dominating dynasty of the modern post Bill Russell era?

Umm, ok. You got us, Jordan didn't mean very much to the Bulls success. It was all the role players, and Scottie Pippen !!!
Because far too many posters act as if the Bulls were Jordan and a bunch of mediocre players. If posters would stop trying so hard to belittle his teammates, then this wouldn't come up.

Think about it. How many teams have been that successful without their best player? And no legitimate replacement for him.

[SamuraiSWISH]

It's very simple for the un-educated:

The 1994 Bulls sans MJ were 3x years deep worth of winning championship experience. Were doubted from the start without Jordan, so the entire roster played with a chip on their shoulder to prove their value without Mike. Little brother syndrome. They added Kukoc off the bench to give added firepower. Pippen made the leap to his peak value.

That's why they won 55 games, and then got booted in the 2nd round. Why does everyone act like that is such a miraculous feat? The difference between the Bulls w/o Jordan is 2nd round knock out, and with him they were breaking records winning consecutive three peats, the most dominating dynasty of the modern post Bill Russell era?

Umm, ok. You got us, Jordan didn't mean very much to the Bulls success. It was all the role players, and Scottie Pippen !!!

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Because far too many posters act as if the Bulls were Jordan and a bunch of mediocre players. If posters would stop trying so hard to belittle his teammates, then this wouldn't come up.

Think about it. How many teams have been that successful without their best player? And no legitimate replacement for him.

People recognize the 1992 and 1996 Bulls as two of the most dominant teams to ever play....in any sport. TEAMS.

Without Jordan, those Bulls would be your ordinary run-in-the-mill playoff squad. With Jordan, as Swish eloquently put it, they're breaking records and winning championships.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Think about it. How many teams have been that successful without their best player? And no legitimate replacement for him.
What's so successful about winning 55 games and losing in the 2nd round?

A bunch of decent role players, Kukoc off the bench, and a peak Scottie Pippen TOTALLY motivated by the naysayers thinking they'd miss the playoffs with the GOAT achieved the un-thinkable?

No one ever said MJ played with total scrubs like he was doing pre 1990.

Certain factions: Kobe stans, and LeBron stans make it out to sound like the '94 Bulls won a championship w/o Jordan. They lose Horace Grant the next season (Pippen's Scottie Pippen) and before Jordan came back they were STRUGGLING to maintain a .500 record.

Was '94 Horace Grant worth 13 wins from the Bulls being barely .500 without him?

Jesus, Yao Ming and Ron Artest went to the second round and lost in 7 games too. Chris Paul took the Hornets to the second round and lost. So CP3 = Pippen in your book?

[97 bulls]

And can anyone find me evidence of Wilt quitting in a game like Jordan did against Cleveland inApparently, his tea? Game 5, Doug Collins complained that Mike was ball-hogging, so he mails it in that game, look it up. Always hear how Pippen quit on a play, how Kobe quit in a half, and how Wilt chokes, but this ****** quits on an entire GAME! :roll:
If I remember correct, there was a playoff game that Wilt reportedly faked an injury and said he couldn't play. Apparently, his team was losing. Wilt took himself out. His team rallied together and got back in the game. The Chamberlain wanted to come back in. Even Bill Russell publicly called him out on it. As well as his coach

[c5terror]

1993 Knicks Bulls series game 5 was rigged.

Even if its rigged, if MJ play that series, they would've won just like the next season. LOL

Do you think they would still lost if MJ play that time?

[97 bulls]

People recognize the 1992 and 1996 Bulls as two of the most dominant teams to ever play....in any sport. TEAMS.

Without Jordan, those Bulls would be your ordinary run-in-the-mill playoff squad. With Jordan, as Swish eloquently put it, they're breaking records and winning championships.
I concur. I just don't get the constant bashing Jordan's teammates have to endure by his fans.

If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes, and only go by what some of these posters say, I'd be led to believe the Bulls were at best a 500 team that would barely make the playoffs without Jordan. That's just not the case. And we don't have to speculate, WE SAW IT UNFOLD.

[97 bulls]

What's so successful about winning 55 games and losing in the 2nd round?

A bunch of decent role players, Kukoc off the bench, and a peak Scottie Pippen TOTALLY motivated by the naysayers thinking they'd miss the playoffs with the GOAT achieved the un-thinkable?

No one ever said MJ played with total scrubs like he was doing pre 1990.

Certain factions: Kobe stans, and LeBron stans make it out to sound like the '94 Bulls won a championship w/o Jordan.They lose Horace Grant the next season (Pippen's Scottie Pippen) and before Jordan came back they were STRUGGLING to maintain a .500 record.

Was '94 Horace Grant worth 13 wins from the Bulls being barely .500 without him?

Jesus, Yao Ming and Ron Artest went to the second round and lost in 7 games too. Chris Paul took the Hornets to the second round and lost. So CP3 = Pippen in your book?
But they didn't just lose Grant Swoosh. They lost Williams, King, Cartwright, and Grant. Then factor that Longley was hurt most of the year. They literally lost their whole interior defense.

They had Greg Foster, Dickey Simpkins, Larry Krystowiak, and Corie Blount as their bigman rotation.

I mean consider this. The 95 Bulls with Jordan won at a pace that extrapolated over a regular season would've netted 63 games. And got eliminated in the second round in six games.

The 94 Bulls won 55 games with Scotte Pippen missing ten. Then got eliminated in the second round in seven games.

That team was just great.

[Audio One]

If I remember correct, there was a playoff game that Wilt reportedly faked an injury and said he couldn't play. Apparently, his team was losing. Wilt took himself out. His team rallied together and got back in the game. The Chamberlain wanted to come back in. Even Bill Russell publicly called him out on it. As well as his coach

Game 7 of the '69 Finals, yes Chamberlain was pulled for his knee, so he could rest it. Wilt wanted to come back in, yet Butch Van Brenda refused to let him back in. It's well known that Van Brenda cost LA the title that year with the move, as he was subsequently FIRED after that series.

And Russell's comment can be taken either way. The relationship between those two was strained at an all-time high by that point, and of course they wouldn't speak for YEARS afterwards. He did of course admit he was wrong in the interview with Costas and Chamberlain sitting right next to him almost 30 years later

[SpecialQue]

Because Lebron sucks.

[Kovach]

It was a shitty season. Winning 5 more games than Golden State Warriors isn't much of an achievement. :confusedshrug:

[bizil]

The reason why is because u had an HOF coach, an HOFer in Pippen, an All Star PF in Grant, a great offensive scheme, and great defense. Kukoc also added a lot too. Pippen could fill so many holes for your team that it made life easier. From there u had an array of shooters and defenders who knew their roles. So 55 wins wasn't really a shock to me. But I didn't expect them to win a title without MJ. MJ put them over the top.

And the Bulls NEVER had truly great depth on their teams. They were very top heavy with two superstars who could do it all on both sides of the rock. Then they had HOF support in Rodman or All-Star level or close to All Star kind of help in Grant and Kukoc. Pretty much all the teams the Bulls beat for rings had more talent depth on their rosters with the exception of the Jazz. Sonics, Suns, Lakers, and Blazers all had more depth than the Bulls.

[tragicbronson]

Even if its rigged, if MJ play that series, they would've won just like the next season. LOL

Do you think they would still lost if MJ play that time?

MJ played in that series :lol

[97 bulls]

Game 7 of the '69 Finals, yes Chamberlain pulled for his knee, so he could rest it. Wilt wanted to come back in, yet Butch Van Brenda refused to let him back in. It's well known that Van Brenda cost LA the title that year with the move, as he was subsequently FIRED after that series.

And Russell's comment can be taken either way. The relationship between those two was strained at an all-time high by that point, and of course they wouldn't speak for YEARS afterwards. He did of course admit he was wrong in the interview with Costas and Chamberlain sitting right next to him almost 30 years later
He wasn't pulled. He took himself out. Many people also believed Wilt took himself out because he didn't want to shoulder the blame for another Laker loss.

I do believe he took himself out to save face. So yes Wilt had his moment as well.

[97 bulls]

The reason why is because u had an HOF coach, an HOFer in Pippen, an All Star PF in Grant, a great offensive scheme, and great defense. Kukoc also added a lot too. Pippen could fill so many holes for your team that it made life easier. From there u had an array of shooters and defenders who knew their roles. So 55 wins wasn't really a shock to me. But I didn't expect them to win a title without MJ. MJ put them over the top.

And the Bulls NEVER had truly great depth on their teams. They were very top heavy with two superstars who could do it all on both sides of the rock. Then they had HOF support in Rodman or All-Star level or close to All Star kind of help in Grant and Kukoc. Pretty much all the teams the Bulls beat for rings had more talent depth on their rosters with the exception of the Jazz. Sonics, Suns, Lakers, and Blazers all had more depth than the Bulls.
What's youre definition off depth? What do you call it when a team can lose key players and not miss a beat? Is this about scoring again? Cuz if so, I agree the Bulls didn't have six guys capable of scoring 20 pts. But what they did have is four guys that could dominate games.

Ive asked this earlier, how many teams have been able to lose their best player (and not replace them) and still be a great team?

[ImKobe]

And how many games did the Bulls win without MJ the following year? What was their win% when MJ came back?

MJ didn't make his teammates better, but with his first full season back they won a record of 72 games in the regular season.

[LAZERUSS]

If I remember correct, there was a playoff game that Wilt reportedly faked an injury and said he couldn't play. Apparently, his team was losing. Wilt took himself out. His team rallied together and got back in the game. The Chamberlain wanted to come back in. Even Bill Russell publicly called him out on it. As well as his coach

You obviously didn't do any research, did you?

The Lakers trailed by 17 points early in the 4th quarter. And in a span of a little over four minutes, the Lakers had cut that 17 point deficit down to seven points, when Chamberlain came up lame, and with a litte less than six minutes still remaining. He came out for a couple of minutes, asked to go back in, was denied, and his replacement, Mel Counts blew chunks on the floor in the last two minutes, in a two point loss. His coach quit shortly thereafter because he knew he was going to be fired. Oh, and even that idiotic Van Breda Kolff admitted that Wilt had been injured.

BTW, Chamberlain shredded that same knee early in the next season, and had to have major knee surgery.

As for the Russell comment, he later apologized. BTW, Russell didn't do jacks**t in the that last quarter, and was nowhere to be found. Chamberlain outrebounded Russell in the fourth quarter, 7-2, (and two rebounds came on consecutive plays after he injured his leg)...all while playing five minutes left.

Now, I ask you...if Wilt were really faking that injury because he feared he was going to lose again, why would he wait until his team had mounted a furious rally, and with plenty of time still remaining, and with the Celtics running on fumes at the time? If he were truly going to "fake" an injury at any point in that game, it would have been late in the third period, and when he picked up his fifth personal foul, and with his team losing by 15 points. Instead, early in the 4th quarter, he got Russell to commit his fifth foul, (and of course, Russell went into hiding the rest of the game), and his defense and rebounding sparked that explosive comeback. It makes ZERO sense.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain



Game 7 featured a surreal scene: in anticipation of a Lakers win, Lakers owner Jack Kent Cooke had put up thousands of balloons in the rafters of the Forum in Los Angeles. This display of arrogance motivated the Celtics and angered Jerry West.[79] In that match, Chamberlain experienced his second Game 7 debacle. The Lakers trailed 91–76 after three quarters. But powered by a limping Jerry West, who played with a deep thigh bruise after Game 5, the Lakers mounted a comeback; but then Chamberlain twisted his knee after a rebound and had to be replaced by Mel Counts. With three minutes to go, and West and Counts hitting clutch baskets, the Lakers trailed 103–102. But when the Celtics tightened up their defense, the Lakers committed costly turnovers and lost the game 108–106, despite a triple-double from West, who had 42 points, 13 rebounds and 12 assists. West became the only player in NBA history to be named Finals MVP despite being on the losing team.

After the game, the key question was why Chamberlain had stayed out the final six minutes. At the time of his final substitution, he had scored 18 points (hitting 7 of his 8 shots) and grabbed 27 rebounds, significantly better than the 10 points of Mel Counts on 4-of-13 shooting.[79] To justify a late minute sub, either Chamberlain's injury had to be grave, or Van Breda Kolff's trust in Counts absolute. Among others, Bill Russell didn't believe Chamberlain's injury was grave, and openly accused him of being a malingerer: "Any injury short of a broken leg or a broken back is not enough."[79] Ironically, Van Breda Kolff came to Chamberlain's defense, insisting the often-maligned Lakers center hardly was able to move in the end.[79] He himself was perceived as "pig-headed" for benching Chamberlain, and soon resigned as Lakers coach.[79] Cherry comments that according to some journalists, that Game 7 "destroyed two careers: Wilt's because he wouldn't take over and Van Breda Kolff because he wouldn't give in".[

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Russell


For most of his career, Russell was close friends with his perennial opponent Wilt Chamberlain. Chamberlain often invited Russell over for Thanksgiving dinner, and at Russell's place, conversation mostly concerned Russell's electric trains.[86] However, the close relationship ended after Game 7 of the 1969 NBA Finals, during which Chamberlain injured his knee with six minutes left and left the game. During a conversation with students, a reporter—unknown to Russell— heard Russell describe Chamberlain as a malingerer and accuse him of "copping out" of the game when it seemed that the Lakers would lose.[87] Chamberlain was livid with Russell and saw him as a backstabber.[87] Chamberlain's knee was injured so badly that he could not play the entire offseason and he ruptured it the next season. The two men did not talk to each other for over 20 years until Russell met with Chamberlain personally and apologized.[88] When Chamberlain died in 1999, Chamberlain's nephew said that Russell was the second person he was told to call.[6] At the eulogy, Russell stated that he did not consider Chamberlain his rival and that the pair would "be friends through eternity

[Audio One]

He wasn't pulled. He took himself out. Many people also believed Wilt took himself out because he didn't want to shoulder the blame for another Laker loss.

I do believe he took himself out to save face. So yes Wilt had his moment as well.

This is just speculation. All the (circumstantial albeit) evidence point this way:

Jerry West was incensed by this

Van Brenda being subsequently fired immediately after the series.

The fact that he exited the game on his own (again, to rest his knee just MONTHS after surgery) doesn't negate the fact that he wanted to come back in, and the fact that he wasn't able to come in. That myth was started, and has since been carried on by Mr. Russell; doesn't help that Wilt had an unfavorable reputation in the clutch as well

Meanwhile, we have a player that led the league in FG attempts NINE times, would've been ten had he played all of '95, taking 8 shot attempts in an ECF game :confusedshrug:

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Guys Jordan simply didnt impact the game like other GOATS like Magic,Kareem Wilt and LeBron..
its that simple...

[tragicbronson]

Guys Jordan simply didnt impact the game like other GOATS like Magic,Kareem Wilt and LeBron..
its that simple...

To add

Bulls 1993 with Jordan 57-25(won championship,rigged series vs knicks,just saying), next year without him 55-27 lost to knicks in 2nd round while pippen was called for phantom foul on davis, if they advaced they would have big chance against indiana to go even to the finals.

Celtics 1969 with Russel 48-34(won championship), next year without him 34-48 didn't even enter the playoffs

Lakers 1973 with Chamberlain 60-22 lost in nba finals, next year without him 47-35, lost in the first round

Bucks 1974 with Robertson 59-23 lost in the finals, next year without him 38-44 didn't enter playoffs

Celtics 1988 with Larry Bird 57-25, lost in conference finals
Next year without him 42-40 lost 3-0 in the first round

Lakers 1991 with Magic 57-25 lost in nba finals, next year without him 43-39 lost 3-1 in the first round

And many of these were cause players were old and got injured, not in their prime because they wanted to try to play some other sports and betray their team.

And now when you see other great players impact you realize that the idea of wanting to prove how they can do it without michael and that they were playing above their limits doesn't really make sense.

[Warfan]

So basically with Jordan 3-peat
Without Jordan 2nd round exit possible ecf if not for a bad call

:roll: stay reaching LeBron/Kobe stans

Anyway the team was lead by one of the greatest players ever, along with arguably the GOAT coach and a group of experienced championship players who wanted to prove that they were still good without mj. I don't think any mj stan would deny those bulls teams were good without him, but when he was with them he lifted the team to dynasty status.

6/6 :bowdown:

http://doubledribble.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/michael-jordan-6-fingers.jpg

[tragicbronson]

So basically with Jordan 3-peat
Without Jordan 2nd round exit possible ecf if not for a bad call

:roll: stay reaching LeBron/Kobe stans

Anyway the team was lead by one of the greatest players ever, along with arguably the GOAT coach and a group of experienced championship players who wanted to prove that they were still good without mj. I don't think any mj stan would deny those bulls teams were good without him, but when he was with them he lifted the team to dynasty status.

6/6 :bowdown:

http://doubledribble.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/michael-jordan-6-fingers.jpg

I am not stan, just want to make things clear.

And you show your lack of knowledge but i am used to it when it comes to Jordan fanatics.

Next year he comes back, they play without grant and they lose 4-2 in the second round. 4-3 in the second round year before without him and next year with him they lose 4-2. :biggums:

[Marlo_Stanfield]

I am not stan, just want to make things clear.

And you show your lack of knowledge but i am used to it when it comes to Jordan fanatics.

Next year he comes back, they play without grant and they lose 4-2 in the second round. 4-3 in the second round year before without him and next year with him they lose 4-2. :biggums:
:applause:
while jordan is the 4th best player ever, his impact on basketball games was always overrated a bit.
what was not overrated tho was his ability to decide games in the Clutch:applause:

[CeltsGarlic]

To add

Bulls 1993 with Jordan 57-25(won championship,rigged series vs knicks,just saying), next year without him 55-27 lost to knicks in 2nd round while pippen was called for phantom foul on davis, if they advaced they would have big chance against indiana to go even to the finals.

Celtics 1969 with Russel 48-34(won championship), next year without him 34-48 didn't even enter the playoffs

Lakers 1973 with Chamberlain 60-22 lost in nba finals, next year without him 47-35, lost in the first round

Bucks 1974 with Robertson 59-23 lost in the finals, next year without him 38-44 didn't enter playoffs

Celtics 1988 with Larry Bird 57-25, lost in conference finals
Next year without him 42-40 lost 3-0 in the first round

Lakers 1991 with Magic 57-25 lost in nba finals, next year without him 43-39 lost 3-1 in the first round

And many of these were cause players were old and got injured, not in their prime because they wanted to try to play some other sports and betray their team.

And now when you see other great players impact you realize that the idea of wanting to prove how they can do it without michael and that they were playing above their limits doesn't really make sense.
:cheers: good post.

jordan still goat tho

[Warfan]

I am not stan, just want to make things clear.

And you show your lack of knowledge but i am used to it when it comes to Jordan fanatics.

Next year he comes back, they play without grant and they lose 4-2 in the second round. 4-3 in the second round year before without him and next year with him they lose 4-2. :biggums:

Im not a jordan fanatic btw, I respect your opinion but I mean in 95 the bulls were 34-31 without him and when he came back they went 13-4 with him, and this wasn't a full seasoned mj aswell, if he had played the whole season u don't feel that they would have a good chance at beating that Orlando team? And they were an MJ assist away to Luc Longely in Game 6 of the ECSF, that was blown layup dunk by Longely from extending that series to 7. And then the following year he lead them to 72 wins. And then in 98 when pippen was out mj led the team to a 24-11 win record before he returned, and carried the team in the postseason when scottie was hurt. Not to mention he got the bulls to the ECFs twice in his earlier years with a worse pippen and grant that weren't really stars.

And my first post wasn't really directed to you, it was mainly to some other stans that posted before you, I thought you brought up some good points about those other legends and how their teams went without them. Those bulls teams were stacked and were very good without him :cheers:

[tragicbronson]

Im not a jordan fanatic btw, I respect your opinion but I mean in 95 the bulls were 34-31 without him and when he came back they went 13-4 with him, and this wasn't a full seasoned mj aswell, if he had played the whole season u don't feel that they would have a good chance at beating that Orlando team? And they were an MJ assist away to Luc Longely in Game 6 of the ECSF, that was blown layup dunk by Longely from extending that series to 7. And then the following year he lead them to 72 wins. And then in 98 when pippen was out mj led the team to a 24-11 win record before he returned, and carried the team in the postseason when scottie was hurt. Not to mention he got the bulls to the ECFs twice in his earlier years with a worse pippen and grant that weren't really stars.

And my first post wasn't really directed to you, it was mainly to some other stans that posted before you, I thought you brought up some good points about those other legends and how their teams went without them. Those bulls teams were stacked and were very good without him :cheers:

Glad you understand, btw next after they lost to orlando they got Rodman who had huge impact on their record and play overall, you overlooked that. I don't want to be missunderstood, i think Jordan is one of the best players ever but not clearly the best, imagine he won that season he came back from baseball episode, imagine the hype and the media. As i said, i agree that he is up there with other great players but not that untouchable how everybody thinks. It bothers me that oftenly even if you try to bring up conversation about who is the best player you are not allowed to compare anyone to Jordan.

[Warfan]

Glad you understand, btw next after they lost to orlando they got Rodman who had huge impact on their record and play overall, you overlooked that. I don't want to be missunderstood, i think Jordan is one of the best players ever but not clearly the best, imagine he won that season he came back from baseball episode, imagine the hype and the media. As i said, i agree that he is up there with other great players but not that untouchable how everybody thinks. It bothers me that oftenly even if you try to bring up conversation about who is the best player you are not allowed to compare anyone to Jordan.

:cheers: yeah and if I remember correctly grant got injured in the 96 series so it definitely helped them win aswell. I have Jordan as the GOAT but if someone said wilt or kareem or Russell was the GOAT I would respect their opinion, and wouldn't say that its a crazy claim at all. I usually don't bother with lists and just try to enjoy greatness when I see it, unlike many people on ISH who just try to put down others to prop up their idol.

[GOATbe]

Same reason Heat would get to the finals without Lebron. That team was the 1st or 2nd most stacked team of all time next to the cHeat.:facepalm

[Lebron23]

Scottie Pippen elevated his game in the regular season, and I think he finished top 3 in MVP Voting. Horace grant averaged 15/11 on 53 FG% in the regular season. BJ Armstrong also averaged career high in ppg, and he was voted by fans in his first all star game.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/bulls/photos/pippen2_100812.jpg

[f0und]

teams overachieve all the time. it happens every year in every sport. the 94 bulls are one of them. it also helps that the team is a group of strong minded championship experienced veterans with something to prove, led by one of the GOAT coaches. they overachieved that year, and just like most overachieving teams, they get exposed in the playoffs. the bulls ended up losing in the second round.

the following year they came back down to earth and played to more realistic expectations. before jordan came back late in the season, the bulls were fighting for the 5th playoff spot in the east. when jordan came back, they went something like 13-4 the rest of the way. all of the sudden they went from middle of the pack to the hottest team in the league. from pretender to contender, even with jordan being rusty and having lost a step. but again, playoffs expose your weaknesses and reveal who you truly are. a rusty(athletically and mentally) jordan can get it done in the reg season. but in the playoffs, you have to be at the top of your game. the bulls lost in 6 to the magic in the second round with jordan uncharacteristically having multiple brain farts down the stretch of game 6. you can expect that kind of stuff kobe and lebron, but not jordan. it was really the only time post '89 that i can remember going, "holy *hit jordan. wtf was that?" but we all know how he bounced back and the rest is history.

[Mr Exlax]

They were able to win 55 games without Jordan because the team was really good. Only on ISH is it bad to have a good team around a great player lol.

[KOBE143]

1993 Bulls with Jordan = 57 wins

1994 Bulls w/o Jordan = 55 wins

GOAT gonna GOAT!! :bowdown:

[SamuraiSWISH]

35 year old Jordan w/ no Pippen for half a season = 62 - 20

GOAT gonna GOAT

[Poetry]

Some numbers to consider:

Margin of victory, beginning with the Bulls first title season.

1990-91 (9.10 points) Rank #1
1991-92 (10.44 points) Rank #1
1992-93 (6.29 points) Rank #4

1993-94 (3.09 points) Rank #11

1994-95 (4.83 points overall) Rank #5
1994-95 (3.40 points, before Jordan)
1994-95 (6.88 points, after MJ, 17 game stretch)

1995-96 (12.24 points) Rank 1
1996-97 (10.80 points) Rank 1
1997-98 (7.11 points) Rank 3

[97 bulls]

teams overachieve all the time. it happens every year in every sport. the 94 bulls are one of them. it also helps that the team is a group of strong minded championship experienced veterans with something to prove, led by one of the GOAT coaches. they overachieved that year, and just like most overachieving teams, they get exposed in the playoffs. the bulls ended up losing in the second round.

the following year they came back down to earth and played to more realistic expectations. before jordan came back late in the season, the bulls were fighting for the 5th playoff spot in the east. when jordan came back, they went something like 13-4 the rest of the way. all of the sudden they went from middle of the pack to the hottest team in the league. from pretender to contender, even with jordan being rusty and having lost a step. but again, playoffs expose your weaknesses and reveal who you truly are. a rusty(athletically and mentally) jordan can get it done in the reg season. but in the playoffs, you have to be at the top of your game. the bulls lost in 6 to the magic in the second round with jordan uncharacteristically having multiple brain farts down the stretch of game 6. you can expect that kind of stuff kobe and lebron, but not jordan. it was really the only time post '89 that i can remember going, "holy *hit jordan. wtf was that?" but we all know how he bounced back and the rest is history.
What do you mean overachieve? How many wins do you think Jordan was worth? Just think. If the only difference between the 94 Bulls 55 win team and the 96 Bulls 72 win team was Jordan, and an upgrade from Rodman to Grant. That's an 18 game increase.

Your math is off. If you think the 94 Bulls overachieved, I assume you feel they were roughly a 43-45 win team. Then what your saying is Jordan was good for almost 30 wins when comparing the 94 to 96 teams.

[Bigsmoke]

They still have all of the attributes to win games "go to guy, consistent rebounder, best coach in the NBA, bench scoring.

The 94 bulls were similar to the current Pacers minus Roy Hibbert.

[Nikola_]

http://terriblepass.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/horace-grant.jpg

best defensive PF, great o rebounder + pippen

[97 bulls]

http://terriblepass.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/horace-grant.jpg

best defensive PF, great o rebounder + pippen
Plus Jackson, and Kukoc. They were a great team

[SamuraiSWISH]

Plus Jackson, and Kukoc. They were a great team
The '94 Bulls were a great team? They overachieved sure, and won 55 games. Impressive to an extent, they were definitely playing beyond their typical capabilities.

But a "great team" to me either:

Wins 60+ games
Wins a championship
Wins multiple championships

Not 55 games, second round exits. That's good. Far from great by any stretch. Lots of teams get to the 2nd round of the playoffs. Like say the 2013 Bulls. Great team? No.

[Soundwave]

The '94 Bulls were a great team? They overachieved sure, and won 55 games. Impressive to an extent, they were definitely playing beyond their typical capabilities.

But a "great team" to me either:

Wins 60+ games
Wins a championship
Wins multiple championships

Not 55 games, second round exits. That's good. Far from great by any stretch. Lots of teams get to the 2nd round of the playoffs. Like say the 2013 Bulls. Great team? No.

"Great" team is thrown around pretty liberally around here, lol. Reggie Miller led the Pacers to game 7 against the Knicks the same year as Pippen did.

Infact he played better than Pippen in the playoffs that year (no crying on the bench and having to get bailed out by Kukoc) ... how much love does he get for that? lol, nada. It's only remembered now because of the Spike-Reggie feud.

Also people conveniently ignore that Pippen/Kukoc/Armstrong/Phil Jackson were a mediocre ass team in 94-95 until Jordan came back and immediately took them from a barely .500 squad to playing at a 60+ win level again.

[KyleKong]

Did they get a ring?

Everyone knows they were robbed with that call.

[97 bulls]

"Great" team is thrown around pretty liberally around here, lol. Reggie Miller led the Pacers to game 7 against the Knicks the same year as Pippen did.

Infact he played better than Pippen in the playoffs that year (no crying on the bench and having to get bailed out by Kukoc) ... how much love does he get for that? lol, nada. It's only remembered now because of the Spike-Reggie feud.

Also people conveniently ignore that Pippen/Kukoc/Armstrong/Phil Jackson were a mediocre ass team in 94-95 until Jordan came back and immediately took them from a barely .500 squad to playing at a 60+ win level again.
Ill admit. Using the term great is a bit of a stretch. But they were a very good team even without Jordan.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Everyone knows they were robbed with that call.
Robbed of one game. There was still two more games where they could've won the series. WTF?

They still had to go to the ECF and face either the Pacers, or Magic. Then they would've had to beat the Rockets in the Finals.

Second round exit, big deal. Most multiple time champions sans their best player would at the very least be able to make the 2nd round of the playoffs. It isn't that difficult.

[ArbitraryWater]

Robbed of one game. There was still two more games where they could've won the series. WTF?

They still had to go to the ECF and face either the Pacers, or Magic. Then they would've had to beat the Rockets in the Finals.

Second round exit, big deal. Most multiple time champions sans their best player would at the very least be able to make the 2nd round of the playoffs. It isn't that difficult.

Dude, this clearly shows you aren't a Bulls fan but a Jordan fan...

Up 3-2 going home you talk about how everything would still be open for the outcome... :coleman: Did you actually root for the Knicks that series? Probably not, but in retrospect you prefer it.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Bulls were a great team, Jordan or no Jordan. Cavs were a shit team without LeBron, that's the difference. Jordan's Bulls were about as stacked as the Heat are currently.

[jlip]

"Great" team is thrown around pretty liberally around here, lol. Reggie Miller led the Pacers to game 7 against the Knicks the same year as Pippen did.

Infact he played better than Pippen in the playoffs that year (no crying on the bench and having to get bailed out by Kukoc) ... how much love does he get for that? lol, nada. It's only remembered now because of the Spike-Reggie feud.

Also people conveniently ignore that Pippen/Kukoc/Armstrong/Phil Jackson were a mediocre ass team in 94-95 until Jordan came back and immediately took them from a barely .500 squad to playing at a 60+ win level again.

Yes MJ improved the team with his return. He's supposed to, being a legitimate GOAT candidate, but the Bulls had just gone 10-2 over the previous 12 games before MJ returned. They were getting things together before he returned.

Frankly in terms of simple W-L record, MJ's return didn't have any appreciably greater impact in '95 than Pippen's return had in '98 after injury. The Bulls went 26-12 without Pippen which was a pace of ~56 games. With Pippen the team went 36-8 which was a pace of ~67 games. Great players impact winning.

The biggest difference between the '94 Bulls and the '95 Bulls was the loss of their all star pf, Horace Grant. Grant had easily been their best post defender, and with him gone to the Magic, the Bulls' frontline was pitiful. And it wasn't just Grant's production that was missing. He understood the team's schemes. He was basically replaced in the starting lineup by Kukoc. IMO Grant was the MVP of the '95 ECSF. He had arguably the best playoff series of his career against his former team avg. 18/11 exposing the Bull's weak frontline.

[SamuraiSWISH]

No, I'm being a rational basketball fan. It's called reality. I have rooting interest in both Jordan as my favorite player, and being a fan of the Chicago Bulls.

I have nothing to gain but tell the truth.

A Bulls "fanatic" arguing Chicago would've won a championship that season or got hosed due to a bad foul call on Hubert Davis are delusional. Plain and simple.

I watched those Bulls teams, being you know ... in Chicago. The '94, and '95 Bulls teams weren't even close to being "great". Watching them I knew we weren't going to win a championship w/o Jordan, and they were playing as well as they possibly could in '94 without him.

They are what they are ... that's all I'm saying. A second round playoff team who pushed the Knicks 7 games in a hard fought series. The 2013 Bulls with significantly less talent gave the Heat, a greater team than the mid 90's Knicks, a momentary challenge. I'm not declaring them a great team by any stretch because of it. And I'm a Bulls fan !!!

I'm un-biased.

[97 bulls]

No, I'm being a rational basketball fan. It's called reality. I have rooting interest in both Jordan as my favorite player, and being a fan of the Chicago Bulls.

I have nothing to gain but tell the truth.

A Bulls "fanatic" arguing Chicago would've won a championship that season or got hosed due to a bad foul call on Hubert Davis are delusional. Plain and simple.

I watched those Bulls teams, being you know ... in Chicago. The '94, and '95 Bulls teams weren't even close to being "great". Watching them I knew we weren't going to win a championship w/o Jordan, and they were playing as well as they possibly could in '94 without him.

They are what they are ... that's all I'm saying. A second round playoff team who pushed the Knicks 7 games in a hard fought series. The 2013 Bulls with significantly less talent gave the Heat, a greater team than the mid 90's Knicks, a momentary challenge. I'm not declaring them a great team by any stretch because of it. And I'm a Bulls fan !!!

I'm un-biased.
Ive got a question for you. If the 94 Bulls "over achieved", how many less games do you feel they would've won if they weren't playing with a proverbial "chip" on their shoulder?

[97 bulls]

Yes MJ improved the team with his return. He's supposed to, being a legitimate GOAT candidate, but the Bulls had just gone 10-2 over the previous 12 games before MJ returned. They were getting things together before he returned.

Frankly in terms of simple W-L record, MJ's return didn't have any appreciably greater impact in '95 than Pippen's return had in '98 after injury. The Bulls went 26-12 without Pippen which was a pace of ~56 games. With Pippen the team went 36-8 which was a pace of ~67 games. Great players impact winning.

The biggest difference between the '94 Bulls and the '95 Bulls was the loss of their all star pf, Horace Grant. Grant had easily been their best post defender, and with him gone to the Magic, the Bulls' frontline was pitiful. And it wasn't just Grant's production that was missing. He understood the team's schemes. He was basically replaced in the starting lineup by Kukoc. IMO Grant was the MVP of the '95 ECSF. He had arguably the best playoff series of his career against his former team avg. 18/11 exposing the Bull's weak frontline.
Great post. I've been stressing your point in the bold for the longest. But guys like Soundwave and Swish ignore it became it doesn't fall in line with their agenda.

And remember, they didnt just lose Grant, they lost Scott Williams, and Stacy King Cartwright retired, and Longley was hurt.