So we gonna pretend that Chris Paul isn't holding Blake Griffin back?

[russwest0]

It's clear that he's made him exponentially worse as evidenced by Griffin playing much better in his absence and the Clippers doing pretty well without Paul by running their offense through him.

The Clippers would benefit more with CP3 in a Tony Parker role if you ask me. (With BG being in the Duncan role on offense). Sure, CP3 would get less assists since they'd run their offense through Griffin a lot more, but who cares, they'd be a better team.

Blake Griffin with Paul was barely a top 5 PF in the game. Without him he looks like the 2nd best in the game behind Davis.

[Clyde]

It's clear that he's made him exponentially worse as evidenced by Griffin playing much better in his absence and the Clippers doing pretty well without Paul by running their offense through him.

The Clippers would benefit more with CP3 in a Tony Parker role if you ask me. (With BG being in the Duncan role on offense). Sure, CP3 would get less assists since they'd run their offense through Griffin a lot more, but who cares, they'd be a better team.

Blake Griffin with Paul was barely a top 5 PF in the game. Without him he looks like the 2nd best in the game behind Davis.

ok I'll bite....Grffin over Love? Davis #1?

[Connor B]

I've said for 3 years now that Chris Paul is the most overrated player in the NBA. And when I do say it, the stans here go crazy. I agree with your post, and I cannot wait until the playoffs when he yet again exposed, though this time they won't be able to blame it on Vinny Del Negro or anyone else.

[moe94]

That's like saying Westbrook is holding back Durant.

Retard.

[coin24]

No shit, CP3 is overrated as fu*k..
Career loser and he always gets a pass:facepalm

[russwest0]

That's like saying Westbrook is holding back Durant.

Retard.

Westbrook and Durant made the Finals together while young and inexperienced.

Chris Paul and Blake Griffin............................

I'll let you do the math.

[coin24]

That's like saying Westbrook is holding back Durant.

Retard.

Westbrook >> CP3..

[ArbitraryWater]

Westbrook >> CP3..

Its Goatbrook ffs, make it a fair comparison at least.. :hammerhead:

[russwest0]

Chris Paul and Blake Griffin made the 2nd round and then lost while Paul put up 13PPG on 35% in that series.

How does this dude continue to get a free pass? :lol :lol :lol :lol

If Westbrook did that the media would ****ing go all in on him. CP3 does it and they just ignore it and insecurely wait until people forget and then cling to the "best PG in the league" title next season.

[Demitri98]

No shit, CP3 is overrated as fu*k..
Career loser and he always gets a pass:facepalm

I've said for 3 years now that Chris Paul is the most overrated player in the NBA. And when I do say it, the stans here go crazy. I agree with your post, and I cannot wait until the playoffs when he yet again exposed, though this time they won't be able to blame it on Vinny Del Negro or anyone else.
I agree with both of these. CP3 is good but not as good as people think. Guy's gotten way too many passes and it's time he's held accountable in the playoffs.

[navy]

This is the same as the Durant without Westbrook scenario.

[russwest0]

This is the same as the Durant without Westbrook scenario.

Clippers with Westbrook >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Clippers with Paul.

Especially in the playoffs.

[red1]

cp is holding blake back the same way that westbrook is holding durant back

[salwan]

if CP3 can't make some noise in the playoffs with this clippers team with a much improved Blake and Deandre 3000 and Doc as the coach, it will be time to call him out for real and make him accountable.

[russwest0]

cp is holding blake back the same way that westbrook is holding durant back

Huh? How do you figure? What CP3/Westbrook do in regards to Griffin/Durant isn't even comparable IMO.

[Young X]

Blake's averaging 27 on 60 TS% without CP, he averaged those same exact numbers WITH CP in the 10 games before he got injured, even had a 40 point game. How is that holding him back when he was already playing at that level? Dumb.

[Twiens]

This is nothing new, CP3's ball dominance isn't championship basketball.

[oarabbus]

It's clear that he's made him exponentially worse as evidenced by Griffin playing much better in his absence and the Clippers doing pretty well without Paul by running their offense through him.

The Clippers would benefit more with CP3 in a Tony Parker role if you ask me. (With BG being in the Duncan role on offense). Sure, CP3 would get less assists since they'd run their offense through Griffin a lot more, but who cares, they'd be a better team.

Blake Griffin with Paul was barely a top 5 PF in the game. Without him he looks like the 2nd best in the game behind Davis.

Cut it out russwest I need CP3 to stat-pad as much as he ****ing can for my fantasy team :bowdown:

[NumberSix]

Durant is holding Ibaka back.

[russwest0]

Durant is holding Ibaka back.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Durant living in this mans head. Bringing him up for no reason at all.

[moe94]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Durant living in this mans head. Bringing him up for no reason at all.

Does that mean Paul is living in your head? :confusedshrug:

[russwest0]

Does that mean Paul is living in your head? :confusedshrug:

Moe's logic

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

[Fire Colangelo]

He was playing pretty well before CP3 got injured.

[moe94]

Moe's logic

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

That's your logic, genius. Are you actually laughing at yourself?:biggums:

[russwest0]

That's your logic, genius. Are you actually laughing at yourself?:biggums:

It's obvious why I made this thread. Griffin went off last night and is finally starting to look like a MAN out there now that CP3 is gone.

This dude comes in the thread bringing up Durant for no reason. He mad.

Lrn2Logic bro

[K.Koscik]

CP3 is a fantastic individual player and an awesome point guard who steps his game up every playoffs. Unfortunately, systems that rely on a superstar point guard usually do not lead to championships.

The Finals MVP award has been around since the 1969 season and since then, the only point guards to win the award are Dennis Johnson (1979), Magic Johnson (1980, '82, '87), Isiah Thomas (1990), Chauncey Billups (2004), and Tony Parker (2007). In 35 years, a PG has won the FMVP 7 times.

Quickly, let's look at the historical standing of those guys:

Dennis Johnson somehow won the award while averaging 9/6/6 with 2spg. If anything, those pedestrian stats further indicate that statistical dominance (a la CP3) from your point guard is not necessary.

Isiah Thomas won the award a year after his teammate, Joe Dumars, did the same in 1989. He averaged 27/7 and was the leader of the "Bad Boy Pistons". Though the leader, the Piston's success did not entirely hinge on Zeke, as the team was renowned for an extremely physical style of play and defense that carried the team in the playoffs even when offense faltered.

Chauncey Billups' FMVP in 2004 is nice, but it was the historically great team defense that was most valuable for the Pistons. That defense allowed that Pistons core to reach the ECF 5 straight times and in the season they made the finals they had a streak where their defense held opponents to under 70 points five consecutive times.

Tony Parker and the Spurs enjoyed a sweep over young Lebron's Cavs - a team that got to the Finals as a result of a very entertaining ECF where LBJ established himself as a superstar. By 2007, however, the Spurs were already a dynasty. Tim D had by then as good a case as anyone for GOAT PF, Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker were both all star caliber players, Bruce Bowen was the perfect guy to lock up 2007 James, and the Spurs were a well oiled, defensively dominant repeat champion. The closest game in the sweep was 1 point (boobie gibson hit a 3 at the end to make it 1. go ahead. check.) and the FMVP went to Parker in a series that was not competitive. This FMVP has always had a * because Tim Duncan was easily far and away the best player on the Spurs, proved it all season and playoffs, but did not stand out in a series where his entire team stood out.

And finally, Magic Johnson is considered by many the greatest PG of all time. Ironically, the game that most fans associate with him is his rookie year where he started game 6 at C and put in 42 points, 15 rebounds, and 7 assists. That year, a Kareem injury causing him to miss the deciding game allowed Johnson to shock the world and steal the MVP. Realistically, Magic is one of the few guys in history who truly did not have a position. Johnson's size, style of play, and accomplishment separate him from other point guards. Holding true about Magic maybe more so than anyone, every once in a while players come along with abilities and talents so unique that their game cannot be judged in the same ways as other guys of the same position.

In the 1980 playoffs, Magic Johnson averaged an 18/10/9 with 3spg but that year the Lakers belonged to MVP Kareem, who averaged 32/12/4 with 4bpg on 57% in the playoffs before sustaining the injury, and had to deal with the added defensive pressure teams send towards an MVP in the post season.

The point being made is that particularly in 1980, but true for the entire span of the Showtime Lakers, the offense did not begin and end with Magic Johnson. The primary offensive options were Kareem and later guys like James Worthy and Byron Scott as well as the high level role players that found themselves to the team. Lastly, but perhaps most important to note is that the Showtime Lakers were not just an offensive juggernaut, but were more than capable of playing championship defense as well - in an era where defense was not nearly the staple it would turn into later. Out of Showtime's 5 titles, Magic won 3FMVP and KAJ and Worthy each had one, a distribution indicative of the dominant balanced play of the team rather than, for example, a guy like Magic making or breaking their success.

Out of the 5 PGs to be the best player on the champion, Magic is an anomaly, the context behind Dennis Johnson is unclear to me, and Tony Parker, Chauncey Billups, and Isiah Thomas were all carried by (respectively) some of the best defenses of all time and rosters stacked with talent (Dumars, Rodman, Laimbeer, Chuck Daly) (Ben Wallace, Rip Hamilton, Prince, Sheed Wallace) (Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili, Bruce Bowen, Popovich)

At some point en route to today's modern NBA, the value of a PG became over exaggerated. Historically, the factors most consistently found in teams that won multiple titles over a short span (Dynasty) are:

Dominant superstar, usually a defensive anchor able to create offense in the low post (Chamberlain, Russell, Abdul-Jabbar, Olajuwon, O'Neal, Duncan, Garnett)
or
A well balanced offense led by a ball dominant superstar (Jordan, Bryant, James). This type of team is much more rare and only 3 guys have had multiple years of success using this kind of formula. Notably, none of these players were point guards, and all three are arguably top 10 of all time.
BUT ALWAYS
Great Defense. Defense wins championships, offense wins games. Arguably, every NBA champion has played good defense. Unarguably, great defense is the difference between one NBA championship and a Dynasty. The LA Lakers (Showtime, Shaq/Kobe, Kobe/Gasol) are the one franchise that seemingly wins with offense over defense, even though all three multi-win teams were above average defensively. From there, the trend is obvious and an intense defensive mentality won Russell's Celtics 11 Titles, Bird's Celtic's 3 titles, Bad Boy Pistons 2 Titles, Jordan's Bulls 6 titles, the Spurs 4 titles, 00's Pistons 5 ECF appearances, and the Lebron's Heat 2 titles (so far).

There will always be teams that become the exceptions. In 2011, the Mavericks ranked only 10th in defense (and were 11th on offense) yet upset the Miami Heat in the NBA Finals. This was a result of an amazing playoff run, starting from a historically good output from Dirk Nowitzki, amazing 3 pt shooting (single game playoff record for 3PM was set in a game that swept the defending champions on their home court) that lasted through the entire playoffs, and other conditions that put together the perfect storm for the Mavericks. It should be mentioned though that Shawn Marion and Tyson Chandler were both excellent defenders and Chandler was DPOY the next year with NY.

Chris Paul isn't holding anyone back because he is doing what is expected with this team. When PG's have won, they have had either a top 10 GOAT player or ridiculous defense backing them up. Back then, the PG wasn't the main ingredient in the pie. Today, even though we have more PG talent then EVER, none are winning championships. Doc Rivers knows this and that is why defense become priority #1, but the Clippers won't do it. In a way CP3 was set up for failure because in today's game the smallest guy on the court has the most responsibility, something that historically does not work. Until the Clippers defense is held more accountable then CP3's performance, there will be only disappointment.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

We gonna pretend that the Clippers are better without him or that he isn't their BEST player?

Threads like this are mind-numbingly stupid. :oldlol:

[JohnFreeman]

People saying CP3 is the best PG since Magic :facepalm

[WillyJakk]

Glad you made this thread op.

Said this last season to my brother and his crew they looked at me like I was an alien, now that Blake has been ballin on his own, they've been saying what I said last year like they felt like this the whole time. Smh...

Paul is a great player if he plays with a traditional low post C, guarantee he'd make a Roy Hibbert or Al Horford look even better cause he's used to being a ball dominant player that creates offense for his teammates, Blake doesn't need that and it really stagnated his game.

[Thechosen1]

everybody in this thread is an absolute retard...if you have eyes and you think chris paul is an overrated basketball player in any way you have no brain cells seriously.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Cp3 doesn't make quick enough decisions, he thinks too much sometimes and doesn't always just make the instinctive play

i've been really impressed with BG lately, he's turned me from a doubter/hater to a fan almost, dude reminded me of CB34 last night the way he was battling for boards.

They should run the offense through Blake more, especially in the regular season, let him develop his half court game more before playoff time comes because that's when they are going to need it. His in abililty to create his own looks have cost them in the playoffs the last two years

[bdreason]

I'm going to continue to pretend that Chris Paul isn't holding Blake Griffin back.

[EllEffEll]

CP3 is a fantastic individual player and an awesome point guard who steps his game up every playoffs. Unfortunately, systems that rely on a superstar point guard usually do not lead to championships.

The Finals MVP award has been around since the 1969 season and since then, the only point guards to win the award are Dennis Johnson (1979), Magic Johnson (1980, '82, '87), Isiah Thomas (1990), Chauncey Billups (2004), and Tony Parker (2007). In 35 years, a PG has won the FMVP 7 times.

Quickly, let's look at the historical standing of those guys:

Dennis Johnson somehow won the award while averaging 9/6/6 with 2spg. If anything, those pedestrian stats further indicate that statistical dominance (a la CP3) from your point guard is not necessary.

Isiah Thomas won the award a year after his teammate, Joe Dumars, did the same in 1989. He averaged 27/7 and was the leader of the "Bad Boy Pistons". Though the leader, the Piston's success did not entirely hinge on Zeke, as the team was renowned for an extremely physical style of play and defense that carried the team in the playoffs even when offense faltered.

Chauncey Billups' FMVP in 2004 is nice, but it was the historically great team defense that was most valuable for the Pistons. That defense allowed that Pistons core to reach the ECF 5 straight times and in the season they made the finals they had a streak where their defense held opponents to under 70 points five consecutive times.

Tony Parker and the Spurs enjoyed a sweep over young Lebron's Cavs - a team that got to the Finals as a result of a very entertaining ECF where LBJ established himself as a superstar. By 2007, however, the Spurs were already a dynasty. Tim D had by then as good a case as anyone for GOAT PF, Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker were both all star caliber players, Bruce Bowen was the perfect guy to lock up 2007 James, and the Spurs were a well oiled, defensively dominant repeat champion. The closest game in the sweep was 1 point (boobie gibson hit a 3 at the end to make it 1. go ahead. check.) and the FMVP went to Parker in a series that was not competitive. This FMVP has always had a * because Tim Duncan was easily far and away the best player on the Spurs, proved it all season and playoffs, but did not stand out in a series where his entire team stood out.

And finally, Magic Johnson is considered by many the greatest PG of all time. Ironically, the game that most fans associate with him is his rookie year where he started game 6 at C and put in 42 points, 15 rebounds, and 7 assists. That year, a Kareem injury causing him to miss the deciding game allowed Johnson to shock the world and steal the MVP. Realistically, Magic is one of the few guys in history who truly did not have a position. Johnson's size, style of play, and accomplishment separate him from other point guards. Holding true about Magic maybe more so than anyone, every once in a while players come along with abilities and talents so unique that their game cannot be judged in the same ways as other guys of the same position.

In the 1980 playoffs, Magic Johnson averaged an 18/10/9 with 3spg but that year the Lakers belonged to MVP Kareem, who averaged 32/12/4 with 4bpg on 57% in the playoffs before sustaining the injury, and had to deal with the added defensive pressure teams send towards an MVP in the post season.

The point being made is that particularly in 1980, but true for the entire span of the Showtime Lakers, the offense did not begin and end with Magic Johnson. The primary offensive options were Kareem and later guys like James Worthy and Byron Scott as well as the high level role players that found themselves to the team. Lastly, but perhaps most important to note is that the Showtime Lakers were not just an offensive juggernaut, but were more than capable of playing championship defense as well - in an era where defense was not nearly the staple it would turn into later. Out of Showtime's 5 titles, Magic won 3FMVP and KAJ and Worthy each had one, a distribution indicative of the dominant balanced play of the team rather than, for example, a guy like Magic making or breaking their success.

Out of the 5 PGs to be the best player on the champion, Magic is an anomaly, the context behind Dennis Johnson is unclear to me, and Tony Parker, Chauncey Billups, and Isiah Thomas were all carried by (respectively) some of the best defenses of all time and rosters stacked with talent (Dumars, Rodman, Laimbeer, Chuck Daly) (Ben Wallace, Rip Hamilton, Prince, Sheed Wallace) (Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili, Bruce Bowen, Popovich)

At some point en route to today's modern NBA, the value of a PG became over exaggerated. Historically, the factors most consistently found in teams that won multiple titles over a short span (Dynasty) are:

Dominant superstar, usually a defensive anchor able to create offense in the low post (Chamberlain, Russell, Abdul-Jabbar, Olajuwon, O'Neal, Duncan, Garnett)
or
A well balanced offense led by a ball dominant superstar (Jordan, Bryant, James). This type of team is much more rare and only 3 guys have had multiple years of success using this kind of formula. Notably, none of these players were point guards, and all three are arguably top 10 of all time.
BUT ALWAYS
Great Defense. Defense wins championships, offense wins games. Arguably, every NBA champion has played good defense. Unarguably, great defense is the difference between one NBA championship and a Dynasty. The LA Lakers (Showtime, Shaq/Kobe, Kobe/Gasol) are the one franchise that seemingly wins with offense over defense, even though all three multi-win teams were above average defensively. From there, the trend is obvious and an intense defensive mentality won Russell's Celtics 11 Titles, Bird's Celtic's 3 titles, Bad Boy Pistons 2 Titles, Jordan's Bulls 6 titles, the Spurs 4 titles, 00's Pistons 5 ECF appearances, and the Lebron's Heat 2 titles (so far).

There will always be teams that become the exceptions. In 2011, the Mavericks ranked only 10th in defense (and were 11th on offense) yet upset the Miami Heat in the NBA Finals. This was a result of an amazing playoff run, starting from a historically good output from Dirk Nowitzki, amazing 3 pt shooting (single game playoff record for 3PM was set in a game that swept the defending champions on their home court) that lasted through the entire playoffs, and other conditions that put together the perfect storm for the Mavericks. It should be mentioned though that Shawn Marion and Tyson Chandler were both excellent defenders and Chandler was DPOY the next year with NY.

Chris Paul isn't holding anyone back because he is doing what is expected with this team. When PG's have won, they have had either a top 10 GOAT player or ridiculous defense backing them up. Back then, the PG wasn't the main ingredient in the pie. Today, even though we have more PG talent then EVER, none are winning championships. Doc Rivers knows this and that is why defense become priority #1, but the Clippers won't do it. In a way CP3 was set up for failure because in today's game the smallest guy on the court has the most responsibility, something that historically does not work. Until the Clippers defense is held more accountable then CP3's performance, there will be only disappointment.

You've made what I thinks are some very valid points, and without exposing any agenda of having to tear down one player to prop up another. And I agree with the basic premise. The devil is in the details.

[iamgine]

The Finals MVP award has been around since the 1969 season and since then, the only point guards to win the award are Dennis Johnson (1979), Magic Johnson (1980, '82, '87), Isiah Thomas (1990), Chauncey Billups (2004), and Tony Parker (2007). In 35 years, a PG has won the FMVP 7 times.

.
Bro there are 5 positions on the floor. 7 times in 35 years is about average.

[navy]

Cp3 doesn't make quick enough decisions, he thinks too much sometimes and doesn't always just make the instinctive play

i've been really impressed with BG lately, he's turned me from a doubter/hater to a fan almost, dude reminded me of CB34 last night the way he was battling for boards.

They should run the offense through Blake more, especially in the regular season, let him develop his half court game more before playoff time comes because that's when they are going to need it. His in abililty to create his own looks have cost them in the playoffs the last two years

Blake doesnt create for himself very well though. The Clippers offense is fine with or without CP3. Blake Griffin needs to become an impact defender for the Clippers to take the next step. That defense was horrible. Chris Paul is a guard, he can only do so much defensively.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

everybody in this thread is an absolute retard...if you have eyes and you think chris paul is an overrated basketball player in any way you have no brain cells seriously.
:applause: :applause:
but...but..but he is holding Griffin back by giving him easy alley oops and dunks off the PnR:cry: :cry:

[Smoke117]

You're an idiot, shut up. Chris Paul is not Kyrie Irvig. Chris Paul has generally only went all out as a scorer in 4th quarters with the Clippers because nobody has any balls or was good enough to close out games...and that's AFTER his knee surgery which has taken at least 1/4th of his athleticism away. Chris Paul is not a selfish fool who "holds players back". That is just an absurd notion and I'm not even a Paul fan.

[joeyjoejoe]

Clipps are playing well without Paul but not against good teams its like 2w 6l on the other hand okc is actually playing better against good teams without westbrook and Durant has never looked this good, this is the first time Durant has looked better then lebron so all in all cp3>>>>>>>4/20 westbrook

[Young X]

Blake's averaging 27 on 60 TS% without CP, he averaged those same exact numbers WITH CP in the 10 games before he got injured, even had a 40 point game. How is that holding him back when he was already playing at that level? Dumb.Can someone answer this?^ How was Paul holding him back if he was already playing on that level with Paul?

[Akrazotile]

The Clippers would benefit more with CP3 in a Tony Parker role if you ask me. (With BG being in the Duncan role on offense). Sure, CP3 would get less assists since they'd run their offense through Griffin a lot more, but who cares, they'd be a better team.


Paul apparently cares. Dude's an assist whore.

He's like the anti kobe, frankly. Kobe insists on chucking even when the team plays better when he shoots less, Paul insists on passing even tho the team plays better when he shoots more.