3 Peat Puts Move LeBron Past Duncan/Shaq On All Time List

[SilkkTheShocker]

We are looking at even more history being made from King James in June :applause:

[KobesFinger]

Your all time list, not everyone's because its subjective

[poido123]

We are looking at even more history being made from King James in June :applause:


Will you go away if they don't? :banana:

[jimmy77x]

Will you go away if they don't? :banana:

Of course he will. Wouldn't be surprised if he abandoned this silk account like he did with his alts "hank" and heat007 after lechoke vs mavs.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Will you go away if they don't? :banana:

Negative.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Of course he will. Wouldn't be surprised if he abandoned this silk account like he did with his alts "hank" and heat007 after lechoke vs mavs.

Why aren't you posting on your imdaman99 account, Jimbo?

[jimmy77x]

Why aren't you posting on your imdaman99 account, Jimbo?

:lol I call you out for being a bitch and abandoning your old accounts due to lechoke not being able to back up all your trash talking,and your only comeback is I must have an alt too? Pathetic :facepalm

[SilkkTheShocker]

:lol I call you out for being a bitch and abandoning your old accounts due to lechoke not being able to back up all your trash talking,and your only comeback is I must have an alt too? Pathetic :facepalm

You can think whatever you want, son. According to this board, I post under 30 other usernames. Deflection is key for this board when you see something that upsets you. I am sorry you're one of the weak. :confusedshrug:

[longhornfan1234]

I agree.

My list right now:




1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Russell
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Duncan
10. LeBron


If LeBron wins another ring...I'll move him to #6. #1 SF.

[JohnFreeman]

I agree.

My list right now:




1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Russell
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Duncan
10. LeBron


If LeBron wins another ring...I'll move him to #6. #1 SF.
In what way is Kobe better than Duncan?

[T_L_P]

I have LeBron at number 10 right now...if he wins another ring and Finals MVP I'll move him up to 9 (ahead of Olajuwon).

But Duncan and Shaq have 4 championship rings and 3 Finals MVPs, so they're still gonna be ahead of LeBron...for the time remaining.

[longhornfan1234]

In what way is Kobe better than Duncan?

Longer prime, better scorer and play maker. Duncan fell off for a bit 'til last year's resurrection. It's close.

[IMObjective]

We are looking at even more history being made from King James in June :applause:
You really that confident they'll win it all again this year? I say 30 to 40 percent chance of that happening. You?

[Mr Exlax]

In what way is Kobe better than Duncan?

Raping and snitching?

[JohnFreeman]

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Russel
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. LeBron
10.Hakeem

[JohnFreeman]

Longer prime, better scorer and play maker. Duncan fell off for a bit 'til last year's resurrection. It's close.
I probably have to go with the greatest power forward of all time

[T_L_P]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Bird
5. Russell
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Wilt
9. Hakeem
10. LeBron

[longhornfan1234]

I probably have to go with the greatest power forward of all time


Fair enough. They're pretty close IMO.

[JohnFreeman]

Fair enough. They're pretty close IMO.
Personally I don't have Kobe in my top 10, but I see what you are saying

[SilkkTheShocker]

I have LeBron at number 10 right now...if he wins another ring and Finals MVP I'll move him up to 9 (ahead of Olajuwon).

But Duncan and Shaq have 4 championship rings and 3 Finals MVPs, so they're still gonna be ahead of LeBron...for the time remaining.

Hakeem gets a little overrated on these lists imo.

[SilkkTheShocker]

You really that confident they'll win it all again this year? I say 30 to 40 percent chance of that happening. You?

Pacers will be tough. But I still like the way they match up with most of the west contenders.

[T_L_P]

Hakeem gets a little overrated on these lists imo.

He took a underwhelming squad to a title and then an underdog squad to a title.

At this point he's pretty much achieved the exact same as LeBron, so it comes down to preference. Again, if LeBron wins another ring/Finals MVP, he'll move up :confusedshrug:

[IncarceratedBob]

Duncan over Shaq/Kobe... Lol

You gotta take into account that those two made Duncan their bitch throughout their playing days

[JohnFreeman]

Duncan over Shaq/Kobe... Lol

You gotta take into account that those two made Duncan their bitch throughout their playing days
:facepalm

[Andrei89]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Bird
5. Russell
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Wilt
9. Hakeem
10. LeBron

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Bird
5. Shaq
6. Russel
7. Duncan
8. Lebron
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem

I wont put a guy who played against 5'9" white players anywhere in the All Time list.

[SilkkTheShocker]

He took a underwhelming squad to a title and then an underdog squad to a title.

At this point he's pretty much achieved the exact same as LeBron, so it comes down to preference. Again, if LeBron wins another ring/Finals MVP, he'll move up :confusedshrug:

He also lost in the first round of the playoffs like 8 times. For whatever reason, all of Hakeem's failures got erased after his back to back. Same thing with you boy Duncan, his failures in the past are always swept under the rug.

[T_L_P]

Duncan over Shaq/Kobe... Lol

You gotta take into account that those two made Duncan their bitch throughout their playing days

Let's put this into context:

Since Jordan's retirement and before the Lakers Dynasty was broken up, Kobe, Shaq and Duncan were almost unanimously considered the three best players in the league (Garnett had '04, other plays were in contention in between).

The fact that Duncan managed to beat those guys twice is nothing short of a miracle.

Duncan/Shaq is a legitimate debate...Duncan/Kobe isn't.

[T_L_P]

He also lost in the first round of the playoffs like 8 times. For whatever reason, all of Hakeem's failures got erased after his back to back. Same thing with you boy Duncan, his failures in the past are always swept under the rug.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2007_finals.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2011_finals.html

Perhaps Duncan's failures aren't looked at that much because he made up for it when he overachieved? LeBron should be sitting on more than 2 titles now, considering he's played on by far the most stacked team in years.

[SilkkTheShocker]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2007_finals.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2011_finals.html

When are LeBron's failures swept under the rug? Duncan just got a pass for missing a game tying layup in game 7 of the Finals. LeBron would have been crucified by the media had he done the same thing.

[dynasty1978]

There isn't a sane GM that would take Lebron or Duncan or Shaq.

Duncan and Shaq were simply more dominant players than Lebron, and therefore are higher all time.

[T_L_P]

When are LeBron's failures swept under the rug? Duncan just got a pass for missing a game tying layup in game 7 of the Finals. LeBron would have been crucified by the media had he done the same thing.

Do you not realize the two go hand in hand?

LeBron craves the attention, and he's the most known star in the world.

When Duncan won nobody gave a shit...why should they when he loses?

[JohnFreeman]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Bird
5. Shaq
6. Russel
7. Duncan
8. Lebron
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem

I wont put a guy who played against 5'9" white players anywhere in the All Time list.
Yeah Wilt gets overrated

[dynasty1978]

When are LeBron's failures swept under the rug? Duncan just got a pass for missing a game tying layup in game 7 of the Finals. LeBron would have been crucified by the media had he done the same thing.

Get a grip. If Lebron was already a 4X champion and missed a game tying layup being well past his prime and in his 15th season, he wouldn't have been crucified by the media.

It's the same reason why few gave Shaq grief for being a non-factor in the '06 finals, he had already built up over a decade's worth of equity to offset past-his-prime shortcomings.

[Illuminati]

Top 6 without MVP and a ring/fmvp.

Top 5 with a MVP/ring/fmvp.

[ArbitraryWater]

Already had him in front of them, but might just be wrong.

A 3-peat will put him ahead of Shaq/Duncan/Bird/Magic... Actually might already be past Bird, dude was a washed up man at this point.

Perhaps Wilt.




Cant put him ahead of Goatbe yet :coleman:

[poido123]

Top 6 without MVP and a ring/fmvp.

Top 5 with a MVP/ring/fmvp.


He hasn't surpassed Bird IMO. Therefore I don't see him higher than 7 or 8.

Wilt, Mj, Shaq, Kareem, Bird, Russell are all still in front of him right now.

[aj1987]

Is Bird the most overrated player on this board? How the hell is Bird ranked above Shaq and Duncan?

[SilkkTheShocker]

Is Bird the most overrated player on this board? How the hell is Bird ranked above Shaq and Duncan?

because he was white. Not even kidding.

[T_L_P]

Already had him in front of them, but might just be wrong.

A 3-peat will put him ahead of Shaq/Duncan/Bird/Magic... Actually might already be past Bird, dude was a washed up man at this point.

Perhaps Wilt.




Cant put him ahead of Goatbe yet :coleman:

What puts him ahead of Duncan as of right now?

LeBron has played 11 seasons and has 2 rings / 2 Finals MVPs with stacked teams.

In Duncan's first 11 seasons he had 4 rings / 3 Finals MVPs with two good squads ('99, '05), 1 stacked squad ('07), and 1 squad that should not have been anyway near the NBA Finals ('03).

I don't see it.

[Jlamb47]

MJ
Kareem
Kobe
Duncan
Shaq
Hakeem
Bird
Magic
Lebron

[Illuminati]

I worded that wrong, top 6 without a MVP, but he wins a Ring/FMVP.

And top 5 with a MVP/Ring/FMVP.

Only Kareem and Jordan and arguably Magic would have a better resume than 5x MVP, 3x Champ, 3x FMVP.

[Uncle Drew]

Only Kareem and Jordan and arguably Magic would have a better resume than 5x MVP, 3x Champ, 3x FMVP.
http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2817947/billbored.gif

[ArbitraryWater]

I have LeBron at number 10 right now...if he wins another ring and Finals MVP I'll move him up to 9 (ahead of Olajuwon).

But Duncan and Shaq have 4 championship rings and 3 Finals MVPs, so they're still gonna be ahead of LeBron...for the time remaining.


You do know that Shaq's 06 "ring" is in no way a reason to have him above LeBron? If you're already being so simplistic in the first place..

[Illuminati]

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2817947/billbored.gif

lol don't know how I forgot him tbh.

Jordan, Kareem, Bill and arguably Magic. Top 5 resume.

[T_L_P]

lol don't know how I forgot him tbh.

Jordan, Kareem, Bill and arguably Magic. Top 5 resume.

How would his resume beat Duncan's if he only gets a ring/Finals MVP then?

2 more MVPs beats 1 more title?

[HOoopCityJones]

LOL @ Tim Duncan above Kobe.

Who ever says this doesn't know basketball or started to watch in 2011.

[JohnFreeman]

LOL @ Tim Duncan above Kobe.

Who ever says this doesn't know basketball or started to watch in 2011.
Duncan > Kobe

[T_L_P]

LOL @ Tim Duncan above Kobe.

Who ever says this doesn't know basketball or started to watch in 2011.

Again, you thought Robert Horry played on the '03 Spurs when he was a key component of "your" favourite team.

I highly doubt you were watching basketball back then.

:oldlol:

[JohnFreeman]

Again, you thought Robert Horry played on the '03 Spurs when he was a key component of "your" favourite team.

I highly doubt you were watching basketball back then.

:oldlol:
:oldlol: :oldlol: really?

[HOoopCityJones]

Duncan > Kobe

You're Clown after this one.

Duncan has never even defended a Championship, there's no way he's above Kobe all time. AND he's been playing at higher level longer, just because Pop's a great Coach and it keeps them in the Playoff mix these last few years doesn't mean shit.


Know how I know you're full of crap? You put Hakeem in your top ten do to your hate of Kobe. Fraud opinion at best.

[Magic 32]

Celebrate before achieving :applause: :applause: :applause:

His stans really are paying attention.

[HOoopCityJones]

Again, you thought Robert Horry played on the '03 Spurs when he was a key component of "your" favourite team.

I highly doubt you were watching basketball back then.

:oldlol:

:lol And? Do something about it.

03 , 04 , 07

Doesn't matter, Duncan's always had a well oiled machine around him, the years he lost was just him being cake ass Duncan. :roll:

Like this past year in Game 7 , where he got stopped by Shane Battier.

[JohnFreeman]

You're Clown after this one.

Duncan has never even defended a Championship, there's no way he's above Kobe all time. AND he's been playing at higher level longer, just because Pop's a great Coach and it keeps them in the Playoff mix these last few years doesn't mean shit.


Know how I know you're full of crap? You put Hakeem in your top ten do to your hate of Kobe. Fraud opinion at best.
If you look around the forums I praise Kobe, I just don't think he is TOP 10. Duncan has more MVPS and FMVPS.

[T_L_P]

:oldlol: :oldlol: really?

You wanna know what else he said? That the 2003 Spurs minus Duncan were more stacked than the 2010 Lakers minus Kobe. :oldlol:

[HOoopCityJones]

If you look around the forums I praise Kobe, I just don't think he is TOP 10. Duncan has more MVPS and FMVPS.

And? Rings > MVP

Go ask Timmy which he wishes he could have more of.

Keep fooling yourself tho, I could care less , just wanted to point out your BS.

[T_L_P]

:lol And? Do something about it.

03 , 04 , 07

Doesn't matter, Duncan's always had a well oiled machine around him, the years he lost was just him being cake ass Duncan. :roll:

Like this past year in Game 7 , where he got stopped by Shane Battier.

And Kobe's always had either the most dominant player in the league or the most dominant frontcourt in the league :oldlol:

Fact of the matter is, Duncan won four rings, in less years, as the best player on his team. Kobe has won two.

[JohnFreeman]

You wanna know what else he said? That the 2003 Spurs minus Duncan were more stacked than the 2010 Lakers minus Kobe. :oldlol:
:roll:
Gasol was arguably better than Kobe in the 2010 finals :oldlol:

[JohnFreeman]

And? Rings > MVP

Go ask Timmy which he wishes he could have more of.

Keep fooling yourself tho, I could care less , just wanted to point out your BS.
Rings as the man > Rings

[SilkkTheShocker]

Agreed. His career significantly elevated after it was over... I'm almost 99% sure Duncan will get the same treatment. Not that he will suddenly be put Top 5, but he'll be admired a lot more in the future (deservedly so), and might get some 7 or 8 spots on the all time list.

Duncan is bulletproof from criticism it seems. Lost in the first round as the 1 seed in 2011. Blew an 0-2 WCF lead in 2012. Missed a crucial layup in the 7th game of the NBA Finals. Part of a team that blew a 0-2 lead in 04. BULLETPROOF!!

[PsychoBe]

the top 5 is

jordan > magic > bird > kareem > kobe

what they have done collectively both on and off the court cannot be quantified. they have defined and transcended generations and are beyond household names. they are pretty much ingrained in pop culture and belong in a tier of all their own.

[HOoopCityJones]

You wanna know what else he said? That the 2003 Spurs minus Duncan were more stacked than the 2010 Lakers minus Kobe. :oldlol:

You think it's ridiculous because you overate the shit out of Gasol, 2010 squad minus Kobe is this year's squad.

2003 Spurs minus Duncan > 2010 Team minus Kobe

Let me ask you, you think Phil is coaching that Team with only Gasol?

[HOoopCityJones]

Rings as the man > Rings

Duncan hasn't been the man ina awhile sweetie, you sure you wanna go that route?

[T_L_P]

Duncan is bulletproof from criticism it seems. Lost in the first round as the 1 seed in 2011. Blew an 0-2 WCF lead in 2012. Missed a crucial layup in the 7th game of the NBA Finals. Part of a team that blew a 0-2 lead in 04. BULLETPROOF!!

Duncan was well past-his-prime and as I already said, he's hardly celebrated for what he's achieved (at least not compared to LeBron, Kobe or Shaq), so why should he be crucified when he fails?

[JohnFreeman]

You think it's ridiculous because you overate the shit out of Gasol, 2010 squad minus Kobe is this year's squad.

2003 Spurs minus Duncan > 2010 Team minus Kobe

Let me ask you, you think Phil is coaching that Team with only Gasol?
:facepalm

[JohnFreeman]

Duncan hasn't been the man ina awhile sweetie, you sure you wanna go that route?
Why does it matter when you win the FMVPS? 3 FMVPS > 2 FMVPS

[T_L_P]

You think it's ridiculous because you overate the shit out of Gasol, 2010 squad minus Kobe is this year's squad.

2003 Spurs minus Duncan > 2010 Team minus Kobe

Let me ask you, you think Phil is coaching that Team with only Gasol?

I overrated the dude who put up 20/11/3.5/2.5 over an entire Playoff run?

No, 2010 Lakers minus Kobe and Gasol still have a good chance of beating the 2003 Spurs minus Duncan.

Nope, Phil probably isn't...but what's your point?

[HOoopCityJones]

Why does it matter when you win the FMVPS? 3 FMVPS > 2 FMVPS

One of those are Tony's :lol maybe two. ----> The Shaq logic I'm sure you'll use soon in this debate.

2002 Finals is a toss up for Kobe and Shaq.


I overrated the dude who put up 21/11/3.5/2.5 over an entire Playoff run?

No, 2010 Lakers minus Kobe and Gasol still have a good chance of beating the 2003 Spurs minus Duncan.

Nope, Phil probably isn't...but what's your point?


No more questions. Your answer to the Phil question says it all to how full of crap you are.

2010 with Gasol leading them is going no where.

2003 with Parker and Ginobli will do damage.

[JohnFreeman]

One of those are Tony's :lol maybe two. ----> The Shaq logic I'm sure you'll use soon in this debate.

2002 Finals is a toss up for Kobe and Shaq.
Who has more FMVPS? Kobe or Duncan.

[T_L_P]

One of those are Tony's :lol maybe two. ----> The Shaq logic I'm sure you'll use soon in this debate.

2002 Finals is a toss up for Kobe and Shaq.

Which other one did Tony deserve? '05? '03? :lol

[SilkkTheShocker]

One of those are Tony's :lol maybe two. ----> The Shaq logic I'm sure you'll use soon in this debate.

2002 Finals is a toss up for Kobe and Shaq.

Duncan was definitely the best player on the 07 Spurs. Parker beat up on a rookie PG that was picked in the 2nd round

[T_L_P]

No more questions. Your answer to the Phil question says it all to how full of crap you are.

Is that your way of saying 'I don't know what I'm talking about'?

[Papaya Petee]

How would his resume beat Duncan's if he only gets a ring/Finals MVP then?

2 more MVPs beats 1 more title?

Debatable, I think it does. Some of you people make MVP seem like it's nothing and it drives me crazy.

MVP means you led your team to one of the best records in the league (Over a stretch of a whole season) and put up some of the best individual numbers in the league. It's the most prestigious individual achievement in all of basketball.

Obviously a title as the man and a Finals MVP > 1 MVP, but stop acting like MVP's don't mean shit to bring down LeBrons accomplishments. At the end of the day LeBron has as much MVPS as Shaq, Kobe and Duncan combined. He earned them and he earned the respect for winning them. If LeBron wins this year he's sitting at.

4-5x MVP's
3x Championships
2-3x Finals MVP's

Not to mention an insane amount of all NBA First teams, All Defensive teams, 2 gold medals and 10 All Star game appearances at age 30. That is insane and beats Duncan, Shaq, Bird and Kobe's resumes who had a longer period of time to boost up their resumes.

If the Heat win this year and 3-Peat honestly only MJ, Kareem, Magic and Russell have better resumes than LeBron.

[Uncle Drew]

Petition to ban HOoopCityJones anyone? This is getting embarrassing.

[JohnFreeman]

Is that your way of saying 'I don't know what I'm talking about'?
He is backed into a corner :oldlol:

[JohnFreeman]

Petition to ban HOoopCityJones anyone? This is getting embarrassing.
I am not even a Spurs fan and I am ethering:oldlol:

[T_L_P]

Debatable, I think it does. Some of you people make MVP seem like it's nothing and it drives me crazy.

MVP means you led your team to one of the best records in the league (Over a stretch of a whole season) and put up some of the best individual numbers in the league. It's the most prestigious individual achievement in all of basketball.

Obviously a title as the man and a Finals MVP > 1 MVP, but stop acting like MVP's don't mean shit to bring down LeBrons accomplishments. At the end of the day LeBron has as much MVPS as Shaq, Kobe and Duncan combined. He earned them and he earned the respect for winning them. If LeBron wins this year he's sitting at.

4-5x MVP's
3x Championships
2-3x Finals MVP's

Not to mention an insane amount of all NBA First teams, All Defensive teams, 2 gold medals and 10 All Star game appearances at age 30. That is insane and beats Duncan, Shaq, Bird and Kobe's resumes who had a longer period of time to boost up their resumes.

If the Heat win this year and 3-Peat honestly only MJ, Kareem, Magic and Russell have better resumes than LeBron.

I didn't mean it to sound like that...I appreciate how great LeBron is.


All I was saying is 3 rings, 3 FMVP, 4 MVPs (he's probably not winning it this year) still doesn't quite beat 4 rings, 3 FMVP, 2 MVPs, especially when you consider Duncan was still very much the team's best player in '07. :confusedshrug:

[SilkkTheShocker]

HoopCity taking getting smacked around like a bitch :oldlol:

[JohnFreeman]

HoopCity taking getting smacked around like a bitch :oldlol:
:oldlol:

[HOoopCityJones]

Is that your way of saying 'I don't know what I'm talking about'?

Bro if Phil Jackson wont coach that Team they're going no where, he wouldn't even consider it as a matter of fact.

35 yr old Kobe was able to lead the Team to an 8th seed Playoffs , with the other key contributors being hurt or underachieving.


What has Gasol done to warrant all of this praise? By himself the guy can't even keep us Contending.

Show me Gasol's Playoff history before Kobe and Phil. I'll wait.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Bro if Phil Jackson wont coach that Team they're going no where, he wouldn't even consider it as a matter of fact.

35 yr old Kobe was able to lead the Team to an 8th seed Playoffs , with the other key contributors being hurt or underachieving.


What has Gasol done to warrant all of this praise? By himself the guy can't even keep us Contending.

Show me Gasol's Playoff history before Kobe and Phil. I'll wait.

What was Kobe's playoff history after Shaq left? :lol

[HOoopCityJones]

HoopCity taking getting smacked around like a bitch :oldlol:

:lol You just a clown ass nut rider bro, I don't take you seriously.

At least TLP and Freeman debate, you just troll your boyfriends headband sweat , cupcake.

[JohnFreeman]

Bro if Phil Jackson wont coach that Team they're going no where, he wouldn't even consider it as a matter of fact.

35 yr old Kobe was able to lead the Team to an 8th seed Playoffs , with the other key contributors being hurt or underachieving.


What has Gasol done to warrant all of this praise? By himself the guy can't even keep us Contending.

Show me Gasol's Playoff history before Kobe and Phil. I'll wait.
Show me Kobes before Shaq and Gasol :confusedshrug:

[Papaya Petee]

I didn't mean it to sound like that...I appreciate how great LeBron is.


All I was saying is 3 rings, 3 FMVP, 4 MVPs (he's probably not winning it this year) still doesn't quite beat 4 rings, 3 FMVP, 2 MVPs, especially when you consider Duncan was still very much the team's best player in '07. :confusedshrug:

So basically our argument is do we value 2 MVPS more then 1 title without a finals MVP.

It was Duncan's team in 2007, unfortunately Parker outplayed him in the finals and that hurt him a little.

I would take 4 Titles 4 FMVPs 2 MVPs over 4 MVPs 3 Titles 3 FMVPs however thats not the case.

[HOoopCityJones]

Show me Kobes before Shaq and Gasol :confusedshrug:

He was in the Playoff mix before Pau and after Shaq.

Wasn't as developed before Shaq came.

[JohnFreeman]

He was in the Playoff mix before Pau and after Shaq.

Wasn't as developed before Shaq came.
Fair enough. Good debate :cheers:

[HOoopCityJones]

Petition to ban HOoopCityJones anyone? This is getting embarrassing.

You mad bro? :oldlol:



What was Kobe's playoff history after Shaq left? :lol

Idk, where was Lebron before Teaming up with the entire League?

[PsychoBe]

i dont understand why people feel the need to compare "help" because all you're doing is basing your argument off of pure speculation and assuming that all the variables will be the same and that everything will work out as well as they can. the fact of the matter is you can't move pieces around and just assume they will fit by virtue of the fact that they worked well independently. shaq had more success with kobe than any other perimeter player he had ever worked with, and ironically, kobe had similar success with a perennial first-round exit big-man star in memphis as well.

on topic however, big-men as a whole are not as celebrated as perimeter players regardless. if a big-man dominates then he's just "doing what he's supposed to do" but if a big-man fails then they are written off as unskilled, untalented, and "cant make a shot even though they are as tall as the rim". as far as fans and mass media are concerned, lebron might already be ahead of duncan and shaq. and even from a basketball purist standpoint it can be argued as well.

[Uncle Drew]

You mad bro? :oldlol:
Not at all. Just find it very entertaining how you talk about something you know nothing about.

[gin17]

Duncan is bulletproof from criticism it seems. Lost in the first round as the 1 seed in 2011. Blew an 0-2 WCF lead in 2012. Missed a crucial layup in the 7th game of the NBA Finals. Part of a team that blew a 0-2 lead in 04. BULLETPROOF!!
Nothing beats the loss of the Heat in 2011.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Nothing beats the loss of the Heat in 2011.

Again, you're missing the point. LeBron gets blamed for everything. He got destroyed by the press after 2011. But Duncan is free of any kind of criticism. Try to keep up.

[Uncle Drew]

2,000 posts and you think you know me, ok.

Time to be the person you're projecting on me.

Duncan is trash. Not even Top 50 :lol :banana:
http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/brent_rambo_approves.gif

[HOoopCityJones]

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/brent_rambo_approves.gif

Is that your Son? :confusedshrug:

[Solefade]

2,000 posts and you think you know me, ok.

Time to be the person you're projecting on me.

Duncan is trash. Not even Top 50 :lol :banana:


lol incoming ban

[HOoopCityJones]

lol incoming ban

I'll live, trust me. :lol

[gin17]

Again, you're missing the point. LeBron gets blamed for everything. He got destroyed by the press after 2011. But Duncan is free of any kind of criticism. Try to keep up.
i don't see how this argument helps you. doesnt change the fact that

chokejob of lebron in 2011 > the "chokejob" of mavs in 2006

[Lebron23]

i don't see how this argument helps you. doesnt change the fact that

chokejob of lebron in 2011 > the "chokejob" of mavs in 2006


lebron did averaged 18 ppg on 48 FG%, 8 rpg, and 7 apg in that series, but Dirk and the 66 games win mavericks choked in the first round of the playoffs in 2007. It was one of the biggest choking job in NBA Playoffs history.

People are no longer criticizing Dirk after he won his first and only finals MVP in 2011. No one criticized him after OKC swept them in the first round of the 2011 NBA playoffs.

Can we do the same thing to Lebron? lebron in the 2012 NBA Finals and 2013 NBA Finals > Dirk in 2011 NBA Finals.

[Deuce Bigalow]

1. Wilt
2. MJ
3. Russell
4. Kareem
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Kobe
8. Shaq
9. Duncan
10. West
11. Oscar
12. Pettit
13. Hakeem
14. Erving
15. Baylor
16. Mikan
17. Lebron

Probably gets in the top 13 if he wins another ring after teaming up with 2 allstars.

[kamil]

I wouldn't put LeBron* past Shaq even if both had three-peats. Shaq did it without collusion, so that's a major plus.

[SilkkTheShocker]

i don't see how this argument helps you. doesnt change the fact that

chokejob of lebron in 2011 > the "chokejob" of mavs in 2006

I like how you put "chokejob" in quotes for Dirk :oldlol:

[SamuraiSWISH]

3 peat over Duncan for sure. He couldn't even muster up back to backs while leading San Antonio. He'd have to 4 peat to rank over Shaq for now. I'm doubting they win next season. Their chances seem to even be lowering this year compared to how confident I was at the start of the season. Indiana looking scary, especially with the addition of Bynum.

[gin17]

I like how you put "chokejob" in quotes for Dirk :oldlol:
i like how you were not able to refute my post :cheers:

[AnaheimLakers24]

gay thread

[HOoopCityJones]

3 peat over Duncan for sure. He couldn't even muster up back to backs while leading San Antonio. He'd have to 4 peat to rank over Shaq for now. I'm doubting they win next season. Their chances seem to even be lowering this year compared to how confident I was at the start of the season. Indiana looking scary, especially with the addition of Bynum.

This , the guy gets so much credit even though he never even defended his ring.

Timmy is Top 10 all time for sure, but there's a reason most people (aside from his fans) who rank Shaq, Kobe above him.

[Solefade]

lebron moves to #6ish all time if he wins ring/fmvp again this year

[SamuraiSWISH]

This , the guy gets so much credit even though he never even defended his ring.
Nigguh you said the other day Shaq / Duncan / Kobe > Bird / Magic / Jordan.

:oldlol:

[SilkkTheShocker]

i like how you were not able to refute my post :cheers:

What point? That LeBron choked? No one is denying that. But no one is sugarcoating that. Kind of like you just tried to do with Dirk in 06.

[HOoopCityJones]

Nigguh you said the other day Shaq / Duncan / Kobe > Bird / Magic / Jordan.

:oldlol:

Im of that Era. From 99-10 these three were the kings of the League.

Ask any 80's era NBA fan, and see what'd he say.

Magic-Bird-Jordan.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Im of that Era. From 99-10 these three were the kings of the League.

Ask any 80's era NBA fan, and see what'd he say.

Magic-Bird-Jordan.
And it would be false. League interest plummeted to shocking lows until around 2006 or 2008. The rise of LeBron, and the resurgence of Lakers v.s. Celtics brought everyone back to the game.

Jordan alone is more exciting than all three of Shaq / Duncan / Kobe.

The game slowed to a crawl in the early 2000s, influx of terrible HS prospect players, lack of ball movement on offense, intelligence, and skills. Pace slowed. Teams imitating Riley's Knicks. It was horrid basketball.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Shameful stans with again no mention of him teaming up to win those rings and finals mvps. Those rings and finals mvps are not the same as other greats who did not shamefully leave their own team and join other man's team.

Before teaming up with Wade and Bosh
0 time champion
0 time finals mvp
2 time mvp
1 time scoring champion
Beat one 50-win team in the playoffs
Swept in his lone finals averaging 22 ppg, 6 t/o, and 36% shooting

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Im of that Era. From 99-10 these three were the kings of the League.

Ask any 80's era NBA fan, and see what'd he say.

Magic-Bird-Jordan.

Monta Ellis and Allen Iverson are from your era too, are they better players than Bird and Jordan? Just because you "grew up" in said era, that doesnt mean you should lose all perspective.

[HOoopCityJones]

And it would be false. League interest plummeted to shocking lows until around 2006 or 2008. The rise of LeBron, and the resurgence of Lakers v.s. Celtics brought everyone back to the game.

Jordan alone is more exciting than all three of Shaq / Duncan / Kobe.

The game slowed to a crawl in the early 2000s, influx of terrible HS prospect players, lack of ball movement on offense, intelligence, and skills. Pace slowed. Teams imitating Riley's Knicks. It was horrid basketball.

:wtf: O-K, doesn't change the fact that, that was the Era of Basketball I grew up watching. Yea, there were lots of Busts and horrible Drafts til like 03, but I think it's just a testament to how good certain players were, namely Kobe-Duncan-Nash.



Monta Ellis and Allen Iverson are from your era too, are they better players than Bird and Jordan? Just because you "grew up" in said era, that doesnt mean you should lose all perspective.

I named three players I loved watching homie, who cares about those guys? 80's and 90's are legendary , but I'm not gonna change my opinion because you all are revisionists.

[gin17]

what has lebron done in his career without bosh and wade? 0 championships. this mere fact is how he will be defined in the years to come

with wade and bosh? lost to the underdogs in 2011. won over a very inexperienced team lead by a 23year old. almost lost to almost 40yrold duncan (who was supposed to be done 6 years ago) in 2013. miami was expected to win the championship in all those years, but miami performed under expectations. the 2011-2013 miami is a great run, but any all time great could have achieved as much or even more than lebron did in 2011-2013.

but props to lebron because he's one of the few that has the guts to shamefully leave his team and join other superstars/allstars in another team for an easy way to glory. not many GOATs are willing to go that low just to win a championship. lebron has the ability to swallow his pride and ego just to win a ring despite underperforming. props to him :cheers:

and props to ray allen for basically defining lebron's career to what it is now

[gin17]

What point? That LeBron choked? No one is denying that. But no one is sugarcoating that. Kind of like you just tried to do with Dirk in 06.
good that we agree that lebron choked and that lebron choked harder in 2011 than dirk in 2006. no argument needs to be done, then. :cheers:

[HoopsFanNumero1]

what has lebron done in his career without bosh and wade? 0 championships. this mere fact is how he will be defined in the years to come

with wade and bosh? lost to the underdogs in 2011. won over a very inexperienced team lead by a 23year old. almost lost to almost 40yrold duncan (who was supposed to be done 6 years ago) in 2013. miami was expected to win the championship in all those years, but miami performed under expectations. the 2011-2013 miami is a great run, but any all time great could have achieved as much or even more than lebron did in 2011-2013.

but props to lebron because he's one of the few that has the guts to shamefully leave his team and join other superstars/allstars in another team for an easy way to glory. not many GOATs was willing to go that low just to win a championship. lebron has the ability to swallow his pride and ego just to win a ring despite underperforming. props to him :cheers:

and props to ray allen for basically defining lebron's career to what it is now

You sound upset from that other thread :lol

Give it up. Wade > Dirk

[Rose'sACL]

LoL@ a mavs fan talking about choking.
This is like CavsFTW who makes fun of lebron for choking in 2011 while being a wilt stan.

[Solefade]

:wtf: O-K, doesn't change the fact that, that was the Era of Basketball I grew up watching. Yea, there were lots of Busts and horrible Drafts til like 03, but I think it's just a testament to how good certain players were, namely Kobe-Duncan-Nash.




I named three players I loved watching homie, who cares about those guys? 80's and 90's are legendary , but I'm not gonna change my opinion because you all are revisionists.


typical stubborn and pretentious kobe/laker fan :rolleyes:

[gin17]

LoL@ a mavs fan talking about choking.
you're right. lebron fans are probably better experts in this regard

[Rose'sACL]

ikr. lebron fans are probably better experts in this regard
Mavs fans knew about choking way before lebron or heat fans did.

[ArbitraryWater]

One of those are Tony's :lol maybe two. ----> The Shaq logic I'm sure you'll use soon in this debate.

2002 Finals is a toss up for Kobe and Shaq.




No more questions. Your answer to the Phil question says it all to how full of crap you are.

2010 with Gasol leading them is going no where.

2003 with Parker and Ginobli will do damage.

:roll:

Thats just :hammerhead:

In WHAT World? Maybe two? Kobe = Shaq 2002? Based on what exactly?

[Prometheus]

1. Wilt
2. MJ
3. Russell
4. Kareem
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Kobe
8. Shaq
9. Duncan
10. West
11. Oscar
12. Pettit
13. Hakeem
14. Erving
15. Baylor
16. Mikan
17. Lebron

Probably gets in the top 13 if he wins another ring after teaming up with 2 allstars.

I could take up many issues with this list, but I'd like to pick out one thing that really irks me:

How the **** can you argue for Julius Erving ahead of LeBron James? Don't be shy, let's hear your case. I'll go heat up some food and sit down for this one.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Shameful stans with again no mention of him teaming up to win those rings and finals mvps. Those rings and finals mvps are not the same as other greats who did not shamefully leave their own team and join other man's team.

Before teaming up with Wade and Bosh
0 time champion
0 time finals mvp
2 time mvp
1 time scoring champion
Beat one 50-win team in the playoffs
Swept in his lone finals averaging 22 ppg, 6 t/o, and 36% shooting

I'd like to see what Lebron will do without 2 all stars and incredible depth with excellent role players

[aj1987]

I'd like to see what Lebron will do without 2 all stars and incredible depth with excellent role players
I'd like to see what Kobe does without HOF big men. Oh wait... Missing playoffs and first round exit.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I'd like to see what Kobe does without HOF big men. Oh wait... Missing playoffs and first round exit.


yeah that argument died when he won b2b rings with Pau Gasol. You can try to spin it any way you want but facts are that Pau was a 1x all star with no playoff wins to his name before he joined the Lakers

[JT123]

I'd like to see what Lebron will do without 2 all stars and incredible depth with excellent role players
You have seen what he will do from his time in Cleveland. He may not have won a ring, but at least he never lost in the first round. :oldlol: Too bad we can't say the same about Kobe. :confusedshrug:

[TheMarkMadsen]

You have seen what he will do from his time in Cleveland. He may not have won a ring, but at least he never lost in the first round. :oldlol: Too bad we can't say the same about Kobe. :confusedshrug:

So you admit that Lebron would not win a ring w/o 2 all stars and you'd be bragging about his 2nd round & ECF losses while Kobe won b2b championships with a second option who had not won a playoff game before his stint with the lakers

2 rings & a first round playoff loss >> no rings and 2nd round births :lol

[JT123]

yeah that argument died when he won b2b rings with Pau Gasol. You can try to spin it any way you want but facts are that Pau was a 1x all star with no playoff wins to his name before he joined the Lakers
And you can spin it anyway you want but the fact is Kobe has NEVER won a playoff series without a HOF big man carrying him. :lol
That fact won't change no matter how much you try and degrade Gasol to prop up your hero. First you Kobe stans try and say MVP's don't mean anything, but then you claim All Star selections do?! :facepalm

[aj1987]

yeah that argument died when he won b2b rings with Pau Gasol. You can try to spin it any way you want but facts are that Pau was a 1x all star with no playoff wins to his name before he joined the Lakers
Well, LeBron was a 2x MVP before he came to the Heat and led his team to back-to-back 60+ win seasons. In case you're been living under a rock, Bosh missed half the PO's in '12 and Wade was injured in '13 (averaged 16/4/4) and Bosh flat out sucked.

Anyways, the FACT still stands. Kobe missed the PO's and could only muster up a first round exit without a stacked frontline, which included HOF big men.

[Prometheus]

Dude they both won with stacked teams and they both lost without stacked teams. It's not rocket science.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I could take up many issues with this list, but I'd like to pick out one thing that really irks me:

How the **** can you argue for Julius Erving ahead of LeBron James? Don't be shy, let's hear your case. I'll go heat up some food and sit down for this one.
Here you go courtesy of fpliii

ABA:

regular season - 28.7/12.1/4.8/2.4/4.0 on .504/.322/.778 shooting
playoffs - 31.1/12.9/5.1/1.6/1.7 on .519/.250/.795 shooting
1974 Finals - 28.2/11.4/5.0/1.8/1.4 on .513/.333/.750 shooting
1976 Finals - 37.7/14.2/5.3/3.0/2.2 on .590/--/.786 shooting*

1971-72 ABA All-ABA (2nd)
1971-72 ABA All-Rookie (1st)
1972-73 ABA All-ABA (1st)
1973-74 ABA All-ABA (1st)
1974-75 ABA All-ABA (1st)
1975-76 ABA All-ABA (1st)
1975-76 ABA All-Defensive (1st)

3xMVP (1973-74, 1974-75 co-MVP, 1975-76)
2xChampion (1974, 1976)

* (I don't have block/steal numbers at the moment, but in the closeout game J put up 31/19/5/5/5 against Bobby Jones; he also made 2 3's in the series, but I don't know the percentages)

NBA:

regular season - 22.0/6.7/3.9/1.8/1.5 on .507/.261/.777 shooting
playoffs - 21.9/7.0/4.2/1.7/1.7 on .486/.194/.779 shooting
1977 Finals - 30.3/6.8/5.0/2.7/0.8 on .543/--/.857 shooting
1980 Finals - 25.5/7.0/5.0/2.0/2.3 on .522/.250/.708 shooting
1982 Finals - 25.0/8.2/3.3/1.8/1.3 on .543/.000/.720 shooting
1983 Finals - 19.0/8.5/5.0/1.3/2.8 on .469/--/.800 shooting

1976-77 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
1977-78 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1979-80 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1980-81 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1981-82 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1982-83 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1983-84 NBA All-NBA (2nd)

1xMVP (1980-81)
1xChampion (1983)

[JT123]

Dude they both won with stacked teams and they both lost without stacked teams. It's not rocket science.
Only Kobe's stacked team wasn't injured and slumping like Lebron's was. :confusedshrug:

[NumberSix]

1. Wilt/MJ/Shaq/LeBron
2. Wilt/MJ/Shaq/LeBron
3. Wilt/MJ/Shaq/LeBron
4. Wilt/MJ/Shaq/LeBron

[TheMarkMadsen]

Well, LeBron was a 2x MVP before he came to the Heat and led his team to back-to-back 60+ win seasons. In case you're been living under a rock, Bosh missed half the PO's in '12 and Wade was injured in '13 (averaged 16/4/4) and Bosh flat out sucked.

Anyways, the FACT still stands. Kobe missed the PO's and could only muster up a first round exit without a stacked frontline, which included HOF big men.


Is that all you got? "stacked frontline" where the starting center and power foward combined for 24 points & 15 rebounds per game in the playoffs for Kobe's first solo ring :oldlol:

While Lebron's 2 all stars averaged a combined 37 points and 13 rebounds in the playoffs for Lebrons first ring

[JT123]

Is that all you got? "stacked frontline" where the starting center and power foward combined for 24 points & 15 rebounds per game in the playoffs for Kobe's first solo ring :oldlol:

While Lebron's 2 all stars averaged a combined 37 points and 13 rebounds in the playoffs for Lebrons first ring
Why don't you compare the efficiency levels of Lebron's All Stars and Kobe's stacked front line? You also conveniently forgot to mention that Bosh missed half of Miami's playoff run in 2012 with an injury. :coleman:

[Solefade]

HoopCity taking getting smacked around like a bitch :oldlol:


too good :lol :lol

[Mure]

Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Russel
Duncan
LeBron
Kobe

If Lebron wins another ring and fmvp, he moves up to 7th.

[HOoopCityJones]

typical stubborn and pretentious kobe/laker fan :rolleyes:

Love the smell of my boxer shorts? :confusedshrug:


You're the typical, "Just because someone told me this Legend was good in his hay day he was the best!" :banana: boy.

Ive been a fan of one Team since 96', one.

You little Bandwagoners go where ever the wind blows.

The difference between me and you is when Kobe is dead and gone, I'll still be a fan of the organization I grew up watching.


Half of you cats who are supposed Heat fans will switch up as soon as Bron leaves or declines. :roll:

You're a joke to me.

[Solefade]

Love the smell of my boxer shorts? :confusedshrug:


You're the typical, "Just because someone told me this Legend was good in his hay day he was the best!" :banana: boy. Ive been a fan of one Team since 96', one.

You little Bandwagoners go where ever the wind blows.

The difference between me and you is when Kobe is dead and gone, I'll still be a fan of the organization I grew up watching.


Half of you cats who are supposed Heat fans will switch up as soon as he leaves or declines. :roll:

You're a joke to me.

we all saw what happened to you in that other thread, no need to come in here to pretend you're some authentic lakers/basketball fan :roll:

[SexSymbol]

It definitely doesn't.

[HOoopCityJones]

we all saw what happened to you in that other thread, no need to come in here to pretend you're some authentic lakers/basketball fan :roll:

Who cares? :confusedshrug:

Who do you root for ?

Which ever Team Bron rests his panties? :lol

[aj1987]

Is that all you got? "stacked frontline" where the starting center and power foward combined for 24 points & 15 rebounds per game in the playoffs for Kobe's first solo ring :oldlol:

While Lebron's 2 all stars averaged a combined 37 points and 13 rebounds in the playoffs for Lebrons first ring
Relative to the competition, they had the best frontline. Again, without HOF big men, Kobe missed the PO's once and lost in the first round. Meanwhile, LeBron was a 2x MVP and led his teams to 2 straight seasons of 60+ wins without 2 All-Stars.

[coin24]

I think sillk abandoned his hank alt because he was claiming to be a pro gambler and made an ass out of himself:roll: :roll:

Stick to being a fat 40yo bran stan heat bandwagoner.:oldlol:

Also your list sucks, Kobe > bran lord asterisk.

[JebronLames]

I sense a lot of fear in this thread.

[Replay32]

Nope.

[knicksman]

You have seen what he will do from his time in Cleveland. He may not have won a ring, but at least he never lost in the first round. :oldlol: Too bad we can't say the same about Kobe. :confusedshrug:


that beta logic. :oldlol: its better to have cheap rings than to have no rings at all.

[knicksman]

so bran was credited by teaming up with shaq like teammates or better but kobe gets discredited. That IQ of LeBron stans is amazing

[Simple Jack]

so bran was credited by teaming up with shaq like teammates or better but kobe gets discredited. That IQ of LeBron stans is amazing

Who did LeBron team up with that can even remotely be considered better than Shaq in and around his prime?

[knicksman]

Who did LeBron team up with that can even remotely be considered better than Shaq in and around his prime?


combine wade and bosh

[Dbrog]

The misinformation in this thread about TD is ridiculous. I'm just going to assume you are all under the age of 13 and need to watch some tape if you think Parker was ever better than him in any of their chip years. The amount of credit given to 3-peating can only be described as idiotic. It's an impressive feat, but it also usually means you are more stacked than the rest of the league and were favorites anyway.

[JohnFreeman]

1. Wilt
2. MJ
3. Russell
4. Kareem
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Kobe
8. Shaq
9. Duncan
10. West
11. Oscar
12. Pettit
13. Hakeem
14. Erving
15. Baylor
16. Mikan
17. Lebron

Probably gets in the top 13 if he wins another ring after teaming up with 2 allstars.
Wilt the career loser at 1? :oldlol:

[Prometheus]

combine wade and bosh

Shaq >>>>>> Wade + Bosh

And if you don't think so you will be quoted in the "Post the dumbest things you've heard said on insidehoops" thread because oh my god it's obvious dude.

[yeaaaman]

Debatable, I think it does. Some of you people make MVP seem like it's nothing and it drives me crazy.

MVP means you led your team to one of the best records in the league (Over a stretch of a whole season) and put up some of the best individual numbers in the league. It's the most prestigious individual achievement in all of basketball.

Obviously a title as the man and a Finals MVP > 1 MVP, but stop acting like MVP's don't mean shit to bring down LeBrons accomplishments. At the end of the day LeBron has as much MVPS as Shaq, Kobe and Duncan combined. He earned them and he earned the respect for winning them. If LeBron wins this year he's sitting at.

4-5x MVP's
3x Championships
2-3x Finals MVP's

Not to mention an insane amount of all NBA First teams, All Defensive teams, 2 gold medals and 10 All Star game appearances at age 30. That is insane and beats Duncan, Shaq, Bird and Kobe's resumes who had a longer period of time to boost up their resumes.

If the Heat win this year and 3-Peat honestly only MJ, Kareem, Magic and Russell have better resumes than LeBron.

Ask the players what they think is more important - MVP or FMVP.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wilt the career loser at 1? :oldlol:
2 Championships with those teams winning 69 and 68 games in the regular season which were the #1 and #2 highest win percentages ever until '96.
'72 Lakers which still has the record of 33 wins in a row.
6 Conference titles

[Graviton]

Tell us more. :applause:

[The Repo Man]

Will you go away if they don't? :banana:
I believe he has. 2 games early to be exact. :roll:

[Eye Test]

http://thegrio.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/michael-jordan-laughs.gif

[The-Legend-24]

Graviton goin ham. :oldlol:

[Smook A.]

Tell us more. :applause:
Bumpin hard today! :applause:

[Graviton]

Keep all the threads at the top, Lebron stans gonna vanish this year. :lol

[knicksman]

Shaq >>>>>> Wade + Bosh

And if you don't think so you will be quoted in the "Post the dumbest things you've heard said on insidehoops" thread because oh my god it's obvious dude.

whos the dumbass now bran fan. And oh btw, 2 is better than 1 so wade+bosh>>>>shaq

[clipps]

whos the dumbass now bran fan. And oh btw, 2 is better than 1 so wade+bosh>>>>shaq

That means Travis Knight and John Salley >>>> Shaq.

[Eye Test]

ima big lebron supporter but wade + bosh > shaq and wade + bosh + allen >>>>> shaq

[Graviton]

2/5. :roll: