Lew Alcindor vs. Willis Reed ( The GOAT Bucks vs. GOAT Knicks Player)

[Lebron23]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKp7U7PeeyM

Highlights

Full game

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_uAJlWP0lQ

Career Head to Head Stats

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=240356

[Lebron23]

It's weird watching an NBA Game without a 3 points area. And willis reed is a very underrated player. I still think he's top 20. it sucks that his NBA career prematurely ended at age 31.

[Milbuck]

I climaxed after the first sentence by the commentator.

[dankok8]

It's weird watching an NBA Game without a 3 points area. And willis reed is a very underrated player. I still think he's top 20. it sucks that his NBA career prematurely ended at age 31.

I don't think he's top 20 but he would be top 30 if it wasn't for injuries.

Kareem hated playing against Reed because Willis always pulled up from mid-range and Kareem liked to protect the middle. The Knicks always had great success against the Bucks because they could pull Kareem out of the paint with Willis and get to the basket at will.

However man-to-man, Reed was no match for Jabbar. The numbers don't lie.

[SexSymbol]

Well, judging that Lew Alcindor was like for one or two seasons, reed was better overall.

[mr.big35]

I climaxed after the first sentence by the commentator.

got a video of your climax

[jlip]

Reed's jumper was :applause: :applause: :applause:

[La Frescobaldi]

Marv Albert : "It seems to me, trying to remember all these years later, that Willis used to kill Kareem. Reed would outplay him. I used to think Kareem was afraid of him. He watched him in New York, growing up. There was always that possibility that Reed would deck him."

Pete Vecsey : "Willis Reed was one of the fiercest competitors you'll ever find. He wiped the deck with opponents. He once beat up four Lakers, he broke John Block's jaw... another time, he was in the middle of a huge brawl in Atlanta. He was a great team player and one of the all-time enforcers. His teammates loved him."

Marv Albert : "I remember what Vecsey was talking about. It was opening night at Madison Square Garden against the Lakers. John Block just happened to be in the way. Willis just lost it. He was being restrained, and I think he once got beat up as a child when restrained. So, a fight broke out, and Reed broke free from whomever was holding him back, and he just went up and down the Lakers bench. He got Rudy Larusso as well."
***************************
Willis held his own against everybody ~ when his body was strong. He was constantly injured, maybe because of the extremely physical game he would bring. Some of the epic battles down low were the Captain against a forgotten Sixer, Luke Jackson - another tank

http://www.wpclipart.com/cartoon/assorted/different_cartoons/tank_cartoon.png

[dankok8]

Let's take a look at Kareem-Reed H2H stats from the 69-70 and 70-71 seasons before injuries took the bite out of Willis.

69-70 Season (6 games)

Kareem: 28.5 ppg, 16.3 rpg, 2.7 apg on 48.0 %FG/51.5 %TS
Reed: 16.8 ppg, 9.5 rpg

70 Eastern Division Finals (5 games)

Kareem: 34.2 ppg, 17.8 rpg, 4.8 apg on 55.2 %FG/58.5 %TS
Reed: 27.8 ppg, 12.2 rpg, 3.0 apg on 54.0 %FG/55.7 %TS

70-71 Season (5 games)

Kareem: 31.0 ppg, 18.8 rpg, 4.8 apg on 47.5 %FG/50.0 %TS
Reed: 26.6 ppg, 13.5 rpg

We are missing some of Reed's rebounding numbers from the regular season but in 6 games that we do have Kareem won the rebounding battle in all of them. In the 5 playoff games it's 4-1 Kareem in rebounding.

[Dbrog]

I think Reed is definitely underrated as well and definitely a top50 player. However, Frazier was their better player. Top5 PGs ever IMO.

Edit: Remember, Reed only played 10 seasons (though really 8 since he was injured for 2). Also, he wasn't a huge factor in the 73 chip...solid role player and presence. Still, in his first 4 playoffs he was pretty beast. However, you trying to say he's top 20 (or even top 30 for that matter) on just 4 successful seasons is insulting to the other players. I think the only guy who has done it that would MAYBE be in my top 30 is Bill Walton just because of how he won it (beating MUCH better teams). He was basically Duncan before Duncan existed. Reed...more like a Ewing type without the longevity.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Great battles those were, shame what happened to Willis.


I don't think he's top 20 but he would be top 30 if it wasn't for injuries.

Kareem hated playing against Reed because Willis always pulled up from mid-range and Kareem liked to protect the middle. The Knicks always had great success against the Bucks because they could pull Kareem out of the paint with Willis and get to the basket at will.

However man-to-man, Reed was no match for Jabbar. The numbers don't lie.

Bob McAdoo did the same to Kareem - and similar centers - but he also had more range and could take it to the hole better, overall more athletic than Willis. Such an amazing scorer that man was, his peak was terrific and to think it came in his early years because he got hit by constant injuries, such a freakin shame. He had the height and the length, he was athletic, he could really shoot that ball - one of the best at hitting contest jumpers - he could post-up, he could handle the rock and attack the rim, great rebounder, solid passer, good shot-blocker, could cause turnovers.. One of the single greatest peaks, and one of the very best scoring peaks, really underrated peak also. Only considerable problem with Mac is that he was too small for many centers, he should've been mostly a forward (like in his days after the Braves) but Buffalo had no better option at C. He still did his thing on D though.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I think Reed is definitely underrated as well and definitely a top50 player. However, Frazier was their better player. Top5 PGs ever IMO.


Only after 71 when Reed was never the same and Frazier was entering his peak, not before. Frazier should have a FMVP to his claim though, and yea I would call him a top5 PG too, I believe.

[Dbrog]

Only after 71 when Reed was never the same and Frazier was entering his peak, not before. Frazier should have a FMVP to his claim though, and yea I would call him a top5 PG too, I believe.

Ya...I felt bad for Reed, especially the 69' season. They had what it took to win. Unfortunately Russell was still in the league and Hondo was going nuts. I do think Frazier was debatably as good that year though. Obviously a PG responsibilities are different but he was beasting in dimes and defense. In 70', Reed definitely led them through the playoffs but Frazier was playing at Reed's level in the finals when they beat the stacked Lakers.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Willis Reed GOAT Knick:facepalm :facepalm
there was a better Knick on his own team everyone know that Walt and Ewing are the GOAT Knicks:facepalm

[Amar'e_Juwanna]

Reed made up for a lack of size with a ferocity in his game. One of the great Knicks.. another one who couldn't stay healthy. Not sure he's the GOAT.
Clyde was an incredibly talented player and used his size to excel at the PG position. Bernard King was the Man for a few years.

[LAZERUSS]

The NBA in the early 70's was perhaps the peak of center play. In a league of 17 teams, the list of starting centers was impressive. Elvin Hayes, Wes Unseld, Bob Rule (go ahead, look him up), Tom Boerwinkle (a full seven-footer who was arguably one of the best rebounders, per minute played, of all-time, as well as a gifted passer), Walt Bellamy (who was still putting up a 19 ppg .545 season as late as 71-72), Bob Lanier, Bob McAdoo, Dave Cowens, Willis Reed, Nate Thurmond, Kareem, and Wilt. And the ABA had Artis Gilmore.

Those guys battled night-in and night-out, 4-6 times per season.

[LAZERUSS]

Great battles those were, shame what happened to Willis.



Bob McAdoo did the same to Kareem - and similar centers - but he also had more range and could take it to the hole better, overall more athletic than Willis. Such an amazing scorer that man was, his peak was terrific and to think it came in his early years because he got hit by constant injuries, such a freakin shame. He had the height and the length, he was athletic, he could really shoot that ball - one of the best at hitting contest jumpers - he could post-up, he could handle the rock and attack the rim, great rebounder, solid passer, good shot-blocker, could cause turnovers.. One of the single greatest peaks, and one of the very best scoring peaks, really underrated peak also. Only considerable problem with Mac is that he was too small for many centers, he should've been mostly a forward (like in his days after the Braves) but Buffalo had no better option at C. He still did his thing on D though.

I would agree with much of this. IMO, McAdoo was the best player in the league from 73-74 thru 75-76. And, like so many other greats, he hit his peak early on (about age 22-23.) He was routinely outscoring KAJ in their H2H's, and ran away with scoring titles in that span. Too bad injuries chopped his prime.

[La Frescobaldi]

The NBA in the early 70's was perhaps the peak of center play. In a league of 17 teams, the list of starting centers was impressive. Elvin Hayes, Wes Unseld, Bob Rule (go ahead, look him up), Tom Boerwinkle (a full seven-footer who was arguably one of the best rebounders, per minute played, of all-time, as well as a gifted passer), Walt Bellamy (who was still putting up a 19 ppg .545 season as late as 71-72), Bob Lanier, Bob McAdoo, Dave Cowens, Willis Reed, Nate Thurmond, Kareem, and Wilt. And the ABA had Artis Gilmore.

Those guys battled night-in and night-out, 4-6 times per season.

You forgot Mel Daniels, Dan Issel, & Zelmo Beatty (who made the jump and saw his numbers rocket) over in the ABA

[LAZERUSS]

You forgot Mel Daniels, Dan Issel, & Zelmo Beatty (who made the jump and saw his numbers rocket) over in the ABA

Good post.

Considering the number of teams, the early 70's were just saturated with exceptional centers.

[La Frescobaldi]

Ya...I felt bad for Reed, especially the 69' season. They had what it took to win. Unfortunately Russell was still in the league and Hondo was going nuts. I do think Frazier was debatably as good that year though. Obviously a PG responsibilities are different but he was beasting in dimes and defense. In 70', Reed definitely led them through the playoffs but Frazier was playing at Reed's level in the finals when they beat the stacked Lakers.

Frazier in '68-'69 was through the roof but was still developing his skillset. He was an overmatch for aged Sam Jones physically but... that old man had carried the burden of all those rings so long his legs were worn out.
Sam walked off with 10 of em!!

Yeah Hondo - he rose to the leadership of the Celtics on the court that he kept the rest of his career until his legs gave out. Must be something about all the weight of 8 rings. As Russell told Auerbach as contract time came up that year "Havlicek is my best player, the best Celtic, and we have to treat him that way." And later, 'In 1974, Bill Russell summed up Havlicek's career by saying "He is the best all-around player I ever saw." ' He went insane good in the Finals both years.

But no doubt when Willis was at his best he was pretty amazing. His early years no less, but he was saddled with a bad team and Dickie McGuire didn't help anything either. When Holzman showed up everything started to come together.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I would agree with much of this. IMO, McAdoo was the best player in the league from 73-74 thru 75-76. And, like so many other greats, he hit his peak early on (about age 22-23.) He was routinely outscoring KAJ in their H2H's, and ran away with scoring titles in that span. Too bad injuries chopped his prime.


He was never the clear-cut best in the league because Kareem was playing. And we can't be sure but his peak was in his early years because he had constant injuries and become a journeyman til his days with the Lakers. What many other greats hit their peak early on, not including ones that got injured? :rolleyes: (yea I know you're gonna say Kareem but only to push your agenda and as previous seen no one agrees with you and it's pretty clear he peaked around 77)

[LAZERUSS]

He was never the clear-cut best in the league because Kareem was playing. And we can't be sure but his peak was in his early years because he had constant injuries and become a journeyman til his days with the Lakers. What many other greats hit their peak early on, not including ones that got injured? :rolleyes: (yea I know you're gonna say Kareem but only to push your agenda and as previous seen no one agrees with you and it's pretty clear he peaked around 77)

First of all, MANY players hit their "peaks" EARLY in their careers. You could make a case that MJ hit his in year 3-4. Chamberlain destroyed the league in his 3rd season (albeit, he would continue to do so even into his 30's.) Shaq was already putting up PEAK numbers, at age 21, and in his SECOND season (go ahead and compare them with 2000 Shaq.) Oscar, D-Rob, and Dr. J were just a few more...

And give me a list of great rebounders, and you will see that many peaked early in their careers.

And Kareem was DEFINITELY at his PEAK in his SECOND NBA season (age 23 BTW). You have never given me anything other than OPINION beyond that. His numbers and domination from the playoffs in '70 (his FIRST season), thru his ENTIRE 70-71 season (SECOND season), and all of his 71-72 REGULAR season...were, BY FAR, the most dominant of his career...including DEFENSE and TEAM success.
He slowly went downhill after that.

And NO, he was not a better player than McAdoo in the mid-70's, and he was certainly nowhere near Moses from the late 70's thru the mid-80's. Moses just abused him.

[SHAQisGOAT]

First of all, MANY players hit their "peaks" EARLY in their careers. You could make a case that MJ hit his in year 3-4. Chamberlain destroyed the league in his 3rd season (albeit, he would continue to do so even into his 30's.) Shaq was already putting up PEAK numbers, at age 21, and in his SECOND season (go ahead and compare them with 2000 Shaq.) Oscar, D-Rob, and Dr. J were just a few more...

And give me a list of great rebounders, and you will see that many peaked early in their careers.

And Kareem was DEFINITELY at his PEAK in his SECOND NBA season (age 23 BTW). You have never given me anything other than OPINION beyond that. His numbers and domination from the playoffs in '70 (his FIRST season), thru his ENTIRE 70-71 season (SECOND season), and all of his 71-72 REGULAR season...were, BY FAR, the most dominant of his career...including DEFENSE and TEAM success.
He slowly went downhill after that.

And NO, he was not a better player than McAdoo in the mid-70's, and he was certainly nowhere near Moses from the late 70's thru the mid-80's. Moses just abused him.

Bullshit, agenda, bullshit, ignorance, agenda, bullshit.. Same old, same old. :rolleyes:

I'm not getting into any type of discussion with you since you're all about agendas and twist everything while bringing ignorance into any argument for the sake of your own goal. I don't get into all of that. Nobody takes you seriously anymore, so just procede :oldlol:

[LAZERUSS]

Bullshit, agenda, bullshit, ignorance, agenda, bullshit.. Same old, same old. :rolleyes:

I'm not getting into any type of discussion with you since you're all about agendas and twist everything while bringing ignorance into any argument for the sake of your own goal. I don't get into all of that. Nobody takes you seriously anymore, so just procede :oldlol:



About the response I expected...

[NumberSix]

Melo is the greatest Knick.

[millwad]

The NBA in the early 70's was perhaps the peak of center play. In a league of 17 teams, the list of starting centers was impressive. Elvin Hayes, Wes Unseld, Bob Rule (go ahead, look him up), Tom Boerwinkle (a full seven-footer who was arguably one of the best rebounders, per minute played, of all-time, as well as a gifted passer), Walt Bellamy (who was still putting up a 19 ppg .545 season as late as 71-72), Bob Lanier, Bob McAdoo, Dave Cowens, Willis Reed, Nate Thurmond, Kareem, and Wilt. And the ABA had Artis Gilmore.

Those guys battled night-in and night-out, 4-6 times per season.

Rule - Never even played a playoff game
Boerwinkle - Mediocre

I have the early 70's as a very great, perhaps the 2nd greatest peak of center play but the early to mid 90's was better with 4 of the 10 best centers ever in their peak or close to their peak.

Then we have the mid 80's we're you had Moses Malone, Olajuwon, Ewing, Parish, Kareem, Laimbeer, Sikma, Sampson and Gilmore.

[millwad]

He was never the clear-cut best in the league because Kareem was playing. And we can't be sure but his peak was in his early years because he had constant injuries and become a journeyman til his days with the Lakers. What many other greats hit their peak early on, not including ones that got injured? :rolleyes: (yea I know you're gonna say Kareem but only to push your agenda and as previous seen no one agrees with you and it's pretty clear he peaked around 77)

The reason why Lazeruss is hyping McAdoo is because he is trying his best to make Wilt look better than Kareem.

[SHAQisGOAT]

About the response I expected...

Glad to know. If you think I'd give more of a response than that, you must be crazy. Everytime anyone presents you with a solid response, with facts and good arguments you just write them off and post some bullshit-ass reply, filled with ignorance and very selected facts to push your agenda up everyone's throat. Jig is up, and has been that way for a very long time now.

You got almost 3000 posts with that account and like 10000 with your previous one - not including alts - and not even 1/3 of them were taken seriously by the majority of people here :roll: Plus most of those posts are centered around your own (crazy) personal agenda, and always filled with dumb shit, ignorant arguments and selected facts, not to mention every once in a while you always write some big-ass essays, mostly about Wilt.
To sum it up, you're wasting your whole life doing something you get 0 money and close to no credit for, plus most of it is about your love about someone you didn't even met/know :lol It's funny, psychotic, pathetic and sad all at the same time. Keep up the good work :facepalm

I won't even write another serious response to you anymore.




The reason why Lazeruss is hyping McAdoo is because he is trying his best to make Wilt look better than Kareem.

Yea no surprise to anyone at this point.

[millwad]

Glad to know. If you think I'd give more of a response than that, you must be crazy. Everytime anyone presents you with a solid response, with facts and good arguments you just write them off and post some bullshit-ass reply, filled with ignorance and very selected facts to push your agenda up everyone's throat. Jig is up, and has been that way for a very long time now.

You got almost 3000 posts with that account and like 10000 with your previous one - not including alts - and not even 1/3 of them were taken seriously by the majority of people here :roll: Plus most of those posts are centered around your own (crazy) personal agenda, and always filled with dumb shit, ignorant arguments and selected facts, not to mention every once in a while you always write some big-ass essays, mostly about Wilt.
To sum it up, you're wasting your whole life doing something you get 0 money and close to no credit for, plus most of it is about your love about someone you didn't even met/know :lol It's funny, psychotic, pathetic and sad all at the same time. Keep up the good work :facepalm

I won't even write another serious response to you anymore.





Yea no surprise to anyone at this point.

To understand how disturbed and obsessed this old fart is, he just signed up with yet another alt called "Houston" and the only thing he did with that account was to write nonsense about Olajuwon.

So the guy picked the name "Houston" as his nickname and he used all the same stupid arguments which he used and still uses with his old account Jlauber and his new account, Lazeruss. Arguments no one has ever used to dismiss the accomplishments of Olajuwon. This guy has some serious issues.

The funny thing is that he didn't even see Wilt play when he was younger, he is supposed to be 50+ years now but a few years ago he wrote stuff like this:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5029077&postcount=53

With other words, he has no credibility what so ever. And it's only getting worse, nowadays he even claim that he remembers certain stats no one counted from games he "saw" 40 years ago.

[SHAQisGOAT]

To understand how disturbed and obsessed this old fart is, he just signed up with yet another alt called "Houston" and the only thing he did with that account was to write nonsense about Olajuwon.

So the guy picked the name "Houston" as his nickname and he used all the same stupid arguments which he used and still uses with his old account Jlauber and his new account, Lazeruss. Arguments no one has ever used to dismiss the accomplishments of Olajuwon. This guy has some serious issues.

The funny thing is that he didn't even see Wilt play when he was younger, he is supposed to be 50+ years now but a few years ago he wrote stuff like this:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5029077&postcount=53

With other words, he has no credibility what so ever. And it's only getting worse, nowadays he even claim that he remembers certain stats no one counted from games he "saw" 40 years ago.

:biggums:

Ridiculous :facepalm

[La Frescobaldi]

Rule - Never even played a playoff game
Boerwinkle - Mediocre

I have the early 70's as a very great, perhaps the 2nd greatest peak of center play but the early to mid 90's was better with 4 of the 10 best centers ever in their peak or close to their peak.

Then we have the mid 80's we're you had Moses Malone, Olajuwon, Ewing, Parish, Kareem, Laimbeer, Sikma, Sampson and Gilmore.

The difference is 17 teams in the early '70s vs. +/- 23 in the '80s vs. 27 to 30 teams in the mid-90s.

The 4 guys of the '90s (I assume you mean David Robinson, O'Neal, Olajuwon, & Ewing) were all incredibly talented players, who would have excelled in any era; but they played the majority of their games against lower- to low-quality centers. Meanwhile, very very few nights off for Jabbar or Thurmond, Cowens, Chamberlain, Hayes or Unseld, Bells, Lanier, McAdoo, or Reed in the early '70s.

10 great, great centers - all Hall of Famers - out of 17 teams is a far more difficult league for centers, than the 4 or 5 great centers in a 90s NBA league of 27 or 30 teams.

Bob Rule was a fine player, doomed to play on the start-up 'Sonics and then traded to the '70s Sixers, the worst team in the history of the league. The 'Sonics were built mostly of over-the-hill NBA players who were destined to be cut from their old teams and glad to have another chance with a startup team... and Rule was about their only hope. 'Sonics weren't ever in the same world with Lakers, Bucks or Bulls, and the Warriors were flat better too.

Put any of your 4 greats on the Toronto Raptors or Vancouver Grizz and what happens? First round and out, if that. There were some college teams that could have destroyed those Canada teams. Exact same thing Kevin Garnett had to endure in Minnesota.

[dankok8]

I would agree with much of this. IMO, McAdoo was the best player in the league from 73-74 thru 75-76. And, like so many other greats, he hit his peak early on (about age 22-23.) He was routinely outscoring KAJ in their H2H's, and ran away with scoring titles in that span. Too bad injuries chopped his prime.

Kareem was easily a better all-around player than McAdoo even from 73-74 to 75-76 which was Bob's peak. Kareem scored a bit less but on higher efficiency and was way better in all other aspects of the game. In their 11 H2H's we have rebounds in 10 of those games and Kareem leads 10-0 and each year Kareem won by margins of 6+ rebounds. Kareem was a far far better defender as well and averaged 6 apg in their encounters.

73-74 Season (3 games)

Kareem: 35.0 ppg, 16.0 rpg, 4.0 apg on 58.0 %FG
McAdoo: 30.3 ppg, 9.3 rpg

74-75 Season (4 games)

Kareem: 32.0 ppg, 16.5 rpg, 6.0 apg on 57.3 %FG
McAdoo: 34.3 ppg, 10.0 rpg

75-76 Season (4 games)

Kareem: 25.8 ppg, 18.5 rpg, 7.5 apg on 57.6 %FG
McAdoo: 32.0 ppg, 12.0 rpg

Overall (11 games)

Kareem: 30.5 ppg, 16.5 rpg, 6.0 apg on 57.6 %FG
McAdoo: 32.4 ppg, 10.7 rpg

[dankok8]

The difference is 17 teams in the early '70s vs. +/- 23 in the '80s vs. 27 to 30 teams in the mid-90s.

The 4 guys of the '90s (I assume you mean David Robinson, O'Neal, Olajuwon, & Ewing) were all incredibly talented players, who would have excelled in any era; but they played the majority of their games against lower- to low-quality centers. Meanwhile, very very few nights off for Jabbar or Thurmond, Cowens, Chamberlain, Hayes or Unseld, Bells, Lanier, McAdoo, or Reed in the early '70s.

10 great, great centers - all Hall of Famers - out of 17 teams is a far more difficult league for centers, than the 4 or 5 great centers in a 90s NBA league of 27 or 30 teams.

Bob Rule was a fine player, doomed to play on the start-up 'Sonics and then traded to the '70s Sixers, the worst team in the history of the league. The 'Sonics were built mostly of over-the-hill NBA players who were destined to be cut from their old teams and glad to have another chance with a startup team... and Rule was about their only hope. 'Sonics weren't ever in the same world with Lakers, Bucks or Bulls, and the Warriors were flat better too.

Put any of your 4 greats on the Toronto Raptors or Vancouver Grizz and what happens? First round and out, if that. There were some college teams that could have destroyed those Canada teams. Exact same thing Kevin Garnett had to endure in Minnesota.

Very much on point! :applause:

You also forgot Spencer Haywood who was an offensive juggernaut and replaced Bob Rule in Seattle.