Questioning Dirk.

[haterofhaters]

I've seriously started to wonder this the more I watch the Jazz play. Mehmet Okur is exactly the same type of player as Dirk. The only real differences I see are that he's a bit slower and a shorter. Granted, Dirk shoots at a much higher fg% which brings most of the seperation but they do have similar game types. So my question is do you think that were he to be plugged into the Mavs and Dirk taken away, would they have a record that's similar to what they have now? (dumbed down for raider fan: not the same record but a top 4 record in the west)

edit: This is NOT saying that Okur is better.... it's just asking if they could sustain a good record were Okur put in his position.

[space]

Nope. Dirk is clearing a notch better than Okur. Okur will be a star but will not be a superstar like Dirk.

[haterofhaters]

Nope. Dirk is clearing a notch better than Okur. Okur will be a star but will not be a superstar like Dirk.
I agree that Dirk is better, but I think that if Okur were to be put on the Mavs in place of Dirk they would have similar success. Maybe not quite as much as they do now, but would be a top 3 team in the leauge nonetheless.

[hotsizzle]

This seems like a thread a Kobe h@ter would make about Kobe haha

[space]

Mavs are pretty deep and has excellent players such as Terry and Howard so Mavs won't slip much, but I will give it a top 5 team.

[raiderfan19]

I agree that Dirk is better, but I think that if Okur were to be put on the Mavs in place of Dirk they would have similar success. Maybe not quite as much as they do now, but would be a top 3 team in the leauge nonetheless.
wow, just wow. the answer is hell no. this is like saying would the lakers be the same if they had jason richardson instead of kobe(if jrich was healthy).

[johndeeregreen]

wow, just wow. the answer is hell no.
I ordinarily don't agree with you, but this is one case where you happen to be completely correct.

[haterofhaters]

wow, just wow. the answer is hell no. the jazz have more talent outside of okur than dallas does outside of dirk. this is like saying would the lakers be the same if they had jason richardson instead of kobe(if jrich was healthy).
Okur makes a lot of big shots down the stretch, just like Dirk.
Okur is 6'11 and Dirk is 7'0, not a big diff.
Okur has a beard, and Dirk has a beard :lol:

As I said, the main difference is just that Dirk has more foot speed and is a more accurate shooter.. But the Mavs definitely have a very talented team. A lot of times in fact, Josh Howard has been the leading scorer, and Dirk is just depended on to take the shots down the stretch.

[space]

Obviously, Lakers is going to suffer a much bigger drop in strength if Jrich replaces Kobe, but because Mavs has such good role players and stars, mavs won't drop as much compared to Lakers.

[haterofhaters]

Obviously, Lakers is going to suffer a much bigger drop in strength if Jrich replaces Kobe, but because Mavs has such good role players and stars, mavs won't drop as much compared to Lakers.
exactly. my comparison is more realistic.

[space]

agreed.

[kentatm]

i really hope the Mavs meet the Jazz in the second round so Dirk can prove with out question who the best between the two is.

roster wise i'd say the Jazz have the better starting 5 but the Mavs have the better overall depth. The Mavs have more player experience but less in coaching. Coaching is about equal on the whole though.

[haterofhaters]

i really hope the Mavs meet the Jazz in the second round so Dirk can prove with out question who the best between the two is.

roster wise i'd say the Jazz have the better starting 5 but the Mavs have the better overall depth. Coaching is about equal. The Mavs have more player experience but less in coaching.

It's not a question of who the better player is. It'd be stupid to say that Okur is BETTER than Dirk. All i'm saying is that if you put him in the same position as Dirk there would not be a huge dropoff because they have similar game types and the Mavs have a perfect set of role players formed around him.

[kentatm]

this also reminds me of last year when people were wondering if Dirk was really any better than Gasol. We all saw how that went.

[haterofhaters]

this also reminds me of last year when people were wondering if Dirk was really any better than Gasol. We all saw how that went.
read my last statement. I'm not questioning whether he's better.

[raiderfan19]

the problem is that they dont have the same type of game at all. dirk is the most dominant high post player in the nba. okur is a spot up shooter. dirk is a MUCH better passer and a dominant scorer that is doubled on a nightly basis as well as a much better rebounder.

[haterofhaters]

the problem is that they dont have the same type of game at all. dirk is the most dominant high post player in the nba. okur is a spot up shooter. dirk is a MUCH better passer and a dominant scorer that is doubled on a nightly basis as well as a much better rebounder.

There's that question of "dominance" again. He and Yao are two people who can basically score whenever they want because of their shooting ability and the fact that with their height they are virtually unguardable. By this definition of dominance, if Sheed had a higher shooting percentage he would be "dominant" as well.

[raiderfan19]

There's that question of "dominance" again. He and Yao are two people who can basically score whenever they want because of their shooting ability and the fact that with their height they are virtually unguardable. By this definition of dominance, if Sheed had a higher shooting percentage he would be "dominant" as well.
so what you are saying is if sheed could score whenever he wanted like dirk could he would be dominant? :roll: gee you think? you obviously have no effing clue about dirks game.

[raiderfan19]

whats funny about this is there is literally not a SINGLE thing that okur does on the court as well as dirk. very rarely is that the case in a player comparison even when one player is clearly better than the other.

[haterofhaters]

so what you are saying is if sheed could score whenever he wanted like dirk could he would be dominant? :roll: gee you think? you obviously have no effing clue about dirks game.

Basically, i'm saying that Dirk doesn't do a lot more than Okur as you say. What's the big difference between standing still and shooting over somebody as opposed to taking a couple of dribbles and then shooting over somebody. If the ball goes in the hoop it all counts the same.

[raiderfan19]

Basically, i'm saying that Dirk doesn't do a lot more than Okur as you say. What's the big difference between standing still and shooting over somebody as opposed to taking a couple of dribbles and then shooting over somebody. If the ball goes in the hoop it all counts the same.
because dirk makes a hell of alot more of them. draws more defensive attention and is just generally a much better player. yet again the gap between the two is at least as large as the gap between a healthy jrich and kobe. name a single thing that okur does as well as dirk. one. ill be waiting...

[SupermanOnSteroids]

Basically, i'm saying that Dirk doesn't do a lot more than Okur as you say. What's the big difference between standing still and shooting over somebody as opposed to taking a couple of dribbles and then shooting over somebody. If the ball goes in the hoop it all counts the same.
that explains everything. you're just a dumbass.

the difference is shawn marion/tracy mcgrady.

[haterofhaters]

because dirk makes a hell of alot more of them. draws more defensive attention and is just generally a much better player. yet again the gap between the two is at least as large as the gap between a healthy jrich and kobe. name a single thing that okur does as well as dirk. one. ill be waiting...

Read my thread again, and then see if your question is still valid. I didn't say that he does ANYTHING as well as Dirk. I just said that if he was inserted into the team there wouldn't be a huge dropoff, there would definitely be one but they'd still be a top team... probably not the very top, but one of the top.

[haterofhaters]

that explains everything. you're just a dumbass.
The real dumbasses are the one's that come into threads with one liners. Either make a point or stay tha **** out.

[raiderfan19]

Read my thread again, and then see if your question is still valid. I didn't say that he does ANYTHING as well as Dirk. I just said that if he was inserted into the team there wouldn't be a huge dropoff, there would definitely be one but they'd still be a top team... probably not the very top, but one of the top.
thats just so overtly stupid its mind boggling. take the most(or one of the most) unique player(s) in the nba, the player who the team is built around off of the team for a guy who does literally every single thing worse and the team wont dropoff. :roll: Yes its a relevant question, the mavs are built around dirk. not their depth, not josh howard, not jason terry, but dirk. now replace him with a guy who you admit isnt as good at anything and the team wont get anyworse. you are officially the dumbest person on this board and that is saying something.

[haterofhaters]

thats just so overtly stupid its mind boggling. take the most(or one of the most) unique player(s) in the nba, the player who the team is built around off of the team for a guy who does literally every single thing worse and the team wont dropoff. :roll: Yes its a relevant question, the mavs are built around dirk. not their depth, not josh howard, not jason terry, but dirk. now replace him with a guy who you admit isnt as good at anything and the team wont get anyworse. you are officially the dumbest person on this board and that is saying something.


First off, think about what Dirk does. He's 7 feet tall and he's a shooter so that's what makes him so "unique." Okur is 6'11 and he's a shooter also, so doesn't that make him "unique" as well? And yes the Mavs do have depth, any intelligent basketball fan knows it... And again, you refuse to read what i have written like the true moron that you are. I said that there would be a dropoff but it wouldn't be like they'd fall off the face of the earth. Can you wrap your little mind around that einstein?:confusedshrug:

[sydneyking]

Why stop with Okur? You should have suggested Channing Frye :rolleyes:

Clearly a retarded topic (and this is two lines so don't give me sh!t dumbass)

[haterofhaters]

Why stop with Okur? You should have suggested Channing Frye :rolleyes:

Clearly a retarded topic (and this is two lines so don't give me sh!t dumbass)
Small minded people, not able to give a simple answer without giving an insult.:wtf:

[raiderfan19]

how much of a dropoff are we talking? they wouldnt be a top 4 seed which is a pretty damn big dropoff considering how dominant they have been with dirk. Could they eek into a 7th/8th seed? Sure.

No, shooting is not what makes dirk unique. its a part of his game but its not what makes him unique. At least not just spot up 3pt shooting which is what okur can do. Here is the most telling stat difference between the two. Okur is assisted on 73% of his baskets. This supports that he is mostly a spot up shooter. Dirk could fill that roll if he needed to though it would be foolish to relegate him to that. On the other hand dirk is assisted on only 49% of his buckets which means that he generally creates for himself. That is a HUGE difference. The thing is if you need a bucket you can give dirk the ball ft line extended/high post and say go score. You cant do that with okur.


Also and i know some of you will laugh at this, the defensive gap between the two is HUGE. Okur is one of the 10 worst defenders in the nba.

[haterofhaters]

how much of a dropoff are we talking? they wouldnt be a top 4 seed which is a pretty damn big dropoff considering how dominant they have been with dirk.

No, shooting is not what makes dirk unique. its a part of his game but its not what makes him unique. At least not just spot up 3pt shooting which is what okur can do. Here is the most telling stat difference between the two. Okur is assisted on 73% of his baskets. This supports that he is mostly a spot up shooter. Dirk could fill that roll if he needed to though it would be foolish to relegate him to that. On the other hand dirk is assisted on only 49% of his buckets which means that he generally creates for himself. That is a HUGE difference. The thing is if you need a bucket you can give dirk the ball ft line extended/high post and say go score. You cant do that with okur.


Also and i know some of you will laugh at this, the defensive gap between the two is HUGE. Okur is one of the 10 worst defenders in the nba.

Ok, if that's a telling stat, how much of that has to do with the fact that his pg dishes 9 assists per game? If that's the main thing that you can come up with then my thought is not so far fetched. I'm guessing that if Jason Terry was Okurs pg, he would naturally have to come up with more of his own offense. Did you see Dirk taking it to the basket as much when Nash was his pg? Bring me up a stat that shows how much of his baskets were assisted when Nash was with him.

Also... saying that Okur is a bad defender does not mean that Dirk is a good one. The guy is 7 feet and barely averages a block and gets 10 rebounds by default of being the tallest guy on the court on a lot of nights.

[SupermanOnSteroids]

first off, the drop off would most probably be like going from a 69 win team to a 49 win team. but yeah, with the depth that mavs have, they would still be a good team, almost a 50 win team. but with dirk they are almost a 70 win team.

second, just because they're both similar in height, race, and have a good shot, doesn't mean their game is the same. you showed your intelligence when you said that a spot up shooter is practically the same thing as a player that can create his own shot. if you've played basketball, you'll know that creating your shot ain't exactly easy. kyle korver can hit spot up jump shots, but that don't make him comparable to kobe bryant. dirk can bring the ball up the court, hit the pull up jumper or attack the rim. even got a few post moves and a little hook shot over the last couple of years.

when you're comparing dirk with okur, you're comparing a dominant offensive player to a good offensive player. do you understand the difference between dominance and merely just good? i don't think you do.

[raiderfan19]

i dont know how to check those stats but even if i did i dont give a damn. you are a *****. so i question do you hate yourself? dirk does literally EVERYTHING better. get that through your fuking head. EVERYTHING. EVERYTHING.


im tired of this moron. im going to sleep. maybe he'll get off the crack by the morning realize what a dumb topic this is and edit his post...

[haterofhaters]

i dont know how to check those stats but even if i did i dont give a damn. you are a *****. so i question do you hate yourself? dirk does literally EVERYTHING better. get that through your fuking head. EVERYTHING. EVERYTHING.


im tired of this moron. im going to sleep. maybe he'll get off the crack by the morning realize what a dumb topic this is and edit his post...

translation: i can't answer the question so maybe if i throw in as many insults as possible nobody will read the reasoning and will just look at the title of the thread.

[haterofhaters]

Ok, if that's a telling stat, how much of that has to do with the fact that his pg dishes 9 assists per game? If that's the main thing that you can come up with then my thought is not so far fetched. I'm guessing that if Jason Terry was Okurs pg, he would naturally have to come up with more of his own offense. Did you see Dirk taking it to the basket as much when Nash was his pg? Bring me up a stat that shows how much of his baskets were assisted when Nash was with him.

Also... saying that Okur is a bad defender does not mean that Dirk is a good one. The guy is 7 feet and barely averages a block and gets 10 rebounds by default of being the tallest guy on the court on a lot of nights.

A reminder of what i asked him for those who read this later on.

[raiderfan19]

btw i have a question, you say because he is 6-11 and can shoot they are similar... well, that applies to vrad, sheed, tim thomas, kvh and several others who i cant think of off the top of my head. why not replace dirk with them too???

[haterofhaters]

first off, the drop off would most probably be like going from a 69 win team to a 49 win team. but yeah, with the depth that mavs have, they would still be a good team, almost a 50 win team. but with dirk they are almost a 70 win team.

second, just because they're both similar in height, race, and have a good shot, doesn't mean their game is the same. you showed your intelligence when you said that a spot up shooter is practically the same thing as a player that can create his own shot. if you've played basketball, you'll know that creating your shot ain't exactly easy. kyle korver can hit spot up jump shots, but that don't make him comparable to kobe bryant. dirk can bring the ball up the court, hit the pull up jumper or attack the rim. even got a few post moves and a little hook shot over the last couple of years.

when you're comparing dirk with okur, you're comparing a dominant offensive player to a good offensive player. do you understand the difference between dominance and merely just good? i don't think you do.

Two things that I can say to that. #1, race? :roll: wow, they're not even the same race first of all and second of all, race had nothing to do with the comparison...

And secondly, If I were 7 fuking feet tall, it wouldn't be that hard to create my own shot.

[raiderfan19]

translation: i can't answer the question so maybe if i throw in as many insults as possible nobody will read the reasoning and will just look at the title of the thread.
no it means im tired of your stupidity. if you can find 82games.com stats for that far back great ill look at them and i would expect dirks assist numbers to be higher. Aside from that it still doesnt matter what they were. Dirk can create his own shot. nothing in okurs history has ever shown that. hes nowhere near as athletic or as good at shooting off the dribble as dirk. Nor is he the passer that dirk is. The biggest thing is that dirk is the only person on the mavs that draws a double. take him off the mavs and it has a domino effect that hurts everyone else.

[haterofhaters]

btw i have a question, you say because he is 6-11 and can shoot they are similar... well, that applies to vrad, sheed, tim thomas, kvh and several others who i cant think of off the top of my head. why not replace dirk with them too???

Okur consistently makes shots in the clutch which is why I used him instead of those others who are inconsistent. Ask any Jazz fan and they'll tell you the same.

[raiderfan19]

Okur consistently makes shots in the clutch which is why I used him instead of those others who are inconsistent. Ask any Jazz fan and they'll tell you the same.
they should also tell you that okur is legitimately in the discussion for worst defensive player in the nba, cant create his own shot, and cant rebound.

[haterofhaters]

they should also tell you that okur is legitimately in the discussion for worst defensive player in the nba, cant create his own shot, and cant rebound.

So he averages 7 rebounds to Dirk's 9. Some can make the argument that Dirk's not that great of a defender or rebounder either.

[statman32]

Wow i feel bad for you raiderfan...the threadstarters argument sucks...the only thing dirk and okur have in common are being big,white,clutch with a good jumpshot

[raiderfan19]

So he averages 7 rebounds to Dirk's 9. Some can make the argument that Dirk's not that great of a defender or rebounder either.
the thing is dirk can rebound like a center when the mavs ask him to. its what makes their small lineup so effective and he isnt all nba defensive team material but hes 10X the defender okur is.


btw on the mavs have so much depth and would be so great even without dirk bs, the mavs have been outscored by 45 points total for the entire season when dirk hasnt been on the court. the lakers have been outscored by 56 points when kobe hasnt been on the court. not a hell of alot of difference.

[haterofhaters]

Wow i feel bad for you raiderfan...the threadstarters argument sucks...the only thing dirk and okur have in common are being big,white,clutch with a good jumpshot

Alright, they're games aren't really THAT similar... but my main point is their size and shooting ability.. The question is not necessarily replacing Dirk but putting someone with his size who can shoot in his position.. I think they have a pretty good complementary team that they could fit in someone like that and still win somewhere in the mid 50's. Whether anyone will admit it or not is up to you. I'm out for tonight.

[raiderfan19]

Wow i feel bad for you raiderfan...the threadstarters argument sucks...the only thing dirk and okur have in common are being big,white,clutch with a good jumpshot
its ok. i half expect him to come up with a would the suns be just as good if they had stephen hunter instead of amare? question. i mean hey they are both tall black and athletic...

[haterofhaters]

the thing is dirk can rebound like a center when the mavs ask him to. its what makes their small lineup so effective and he isnt all nba defensive team material but hes 10X the defender okur is.


btw on the mavs have so much depth and would be so great even without dirk bs, the mavs have been outscored by 45 points total for the entire season when dirk hasnt been on the court. the lakers have been outscored by 56 points when kobe hasnt been on the court. not a hell of alot of difference.

Damn, what's with you and your exaggerations? It's not even worth arguing about if you can't look at what is said without making a huge exaggeration out of it.

And another thing you idiot... What you just said has nothing to do with my thread topic. I didn't say, "would the mavs be so great without Dirk." I said would the mavs still be good if you subtract Dirk and add Okur. To this point you've just twisted around the words and made it something it's not, so you're not worth arguing with.
Peace

[johndeeregreen]

Small minded people, not able to give a simple answer without giving an insult.
It's because this is such a ludicrous topic that no one wants to take it seriously.

[haterofhaters]

It's because this is such a ludicrous topic that no one wants to take it seriously.
So far all i've been told that the resounding reasons why they would not be a top 4 team with Okur is that

#1. Dirk is a good defender??? yeah ok.. and Okur is not
#2. Dirk can create his shot off the dribble.

If those two points make it such a ludicrous topic then go ahead burn me at the stake. :lol: Until you can come up with something more than that, then you really have no place making a comment.

[johndeeregreen]

1) Nowitzki is a much more talented, versatile scorer than Okur. And it's not close.

2) He's a superior rebounder, playmaker, and defensive player.

3) He has proven his ability to lead a team; Okur has not. Nowitzki has proven he can also be the centerpiece of a championship caliber team. Okur isn't a franchise player. At all.

I mean, besides being superior in every facet of the game, a franchise player, and a leader of a team that goes to the NBA Finals, what response do you want?

[TMac&Luther]

They're both tall, white, foriegn, and can shoot, but thats where the comparisions stop.

Dirk is the biggest mismatch in the league, he's too athletic for big men, can drive to the basket like a sg, and too tall for guards out on the perimeter.

[statman32]

dirks stats this year: 25.4 ppg 9.6 rpg 3.5 apg .86 bpg .74 spg 50.5 fg% 42.9 3pt% 90.6 ft% 437 ft attempted

okurs stats this year: 18 ppg 7.3 rpg 2.0 apg .52 bpg .50 spg 46.0 fg% 39.2 3pt% 78.8 ft% 259 ft attempted

As you can see dirk is better at every single catgory and all those stats dont even show the leadership he brings too..You cannot comapre the two players...dirk blows okur out

Replace dirk with okur on the mavs and they are a 41 to 46 wins team

[Juvenile]

Replace Dirk with Okur and the Mavs win 21-26 games, cause Cuban will blow up a team that has no shot at a title in no time.

[SupermanOnSteroids]

Two things that I can say to that. #1, race? :roll: wow, they're not even the same race first of all and second of all, race had nothing to do with the comparison...

And secondly, If I were 7 fuking feet tall, it wouldn't be that hard to create my own shot.

once again, your intelligence amazes me.:applause:

[Skywalker]

dirk is the most dominant high post player in the nba.

no.

[Loki]

I agree that Dirk is better, but I think that if Okur were to be put on the Mavs in place of Dirk they would have similar success. Maybe not quite as much as they do now, but would be a top 3 team in the leauge nonetheless.

:oldlol:

[zebraheat]

Dirk is the best player on the best team, who will most likely win the championship. Think MVP.

Okur is the third best player on a very good team, who will likely bow out in the second round. Made the AS team via injury and lack of talent at C position.

HoH, you have either terribly overestimated Okur, or have little respect for Dirk.

They are practically the same race - well, Western European v Eastern European (They are both human ;)).

Swap both players, Utah is the team to beat for the championship, Dallas will be 7th or 8th seed.

Not sure why you put the hate on Dirk, perhaps your an ethnic minority and see him as the superior race Hitler envisioned 70 years ago. Just imagine a world in which germany (today) was the super power, would actually prefer them over the stupid americans.

[DreamRockets]

no.

of course he is, who else ? kg ?! :roll: lol with 30 wins per season he sure "dominates" :violin:

[Brunch@Five]

Okur doesn't create mismatches, doesn't demand a double team, cannot create his own shot, nor for others.

Those are the things Dirk does night in night out, and those are the things that put Dallas on a 70-win pace and make them the top favorites to win the title.

[malek4980]

Here are some of Dirk's games over the last month:

38/10/6
24/11/7
38/11/8
31/11/6
31/11/8
24/11/7
24/9/7

How many current NBA players can do that?
Not Okur. He can not come close to being this dominant.

[different107]

I would never give up Dirk for Okur. Dirk fits with the guys in dallas and its showing (50-9). The Mavs better finish this June though.

[BballFan422]

I've seriously started to wonder this the more I watch the Jazz play. Mehmet Okur is exactly the same type of player as Dirk. The only real differences I see are that he's a bit slower and a shorter. Granted, Dirk shoots at a much higher fg% which brings most of the seperation but they do have similar game types. So my question is do you think that were he to be plugged into the Mavs and Dirk taken away, would they have a record that's similar to what they have now? (dumbed down for raider fan: not the same record but a top 4 record in the west)

edit: This is NOT saying that Okur is better.... it's just asking if they could sustain a good record were Okur put in his position.

No, the Mavs entire system is built around Dirk (his strengths and weaknesses). You can't just switch players and expect the same results.

If you put Okur in Dirk's place, Howard or Terry becomes #1 option (which changes things significantly).

[Howard5Dirk41]

TC please drop the crack pipe and slowly walk away from the keyboard....

[haterofhaters]

OK, i'm sorry ISH for making a question about the great, and all-mighty Dirk. He's the best player in the NBA, got robbed 2 years straight and is a lock for MVP and a championship this year (which he got robbed of last year by the refs) All hail King Dirk, may his reign be long and merciless.

One thing I find funny is that you all jump on me for asking a simple question like this and yet many agreed that the suns would still be an elite team if you added ANDRE MILLER. DAMNIT ANDRE MILLER!!!!!!!!!!!

Lets check on a stat comparison..
Nash
Year Team G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
06-07 PHX 54 54 35.3 .533 .481 .882 0.4 2.9 3.3 11.7 0.7 0.1 3.76 1.50 19.1

Miller
06-07 -- 58 57 36.9 .474 .192 .760 1.1 3.2 4.3 8.2 1.4 0.1 2.84 2.30 13.3

Comparatively, Nash is better at everything, so does that make all of you who said adding Andre Miller to Nash would still result in the same elite team morons who are on the crack pipe as well??

alright, so maybe I worded it incorrectly when I look at it again. They don't have the exact same type of game, but remember this.. Dirk wasn't always someone who created off the dribble. He was told to do so by Avery Johnson and was also forced by having his playmaker pg removed from his team. So, just because Okur doesn't do it, doesn't mean he's not capable. That being said, I know that he's not as good as Dirk, but you guys are acting like i'm comparing Jason Kidd to Nate Robinson or somthing of that nature.

[moaz]

. Dirk wasn't always someone who created off the dribble. He was told to do so by Avery Johnson and was also forced by having his playmaker pg removed from his team.

No, Dirk was maybe told by Nelly not to create his own shot. He practiced it with his German coach in one of his preseasons. I read about 4 years ago an interview with him and he said, that he wann work first on his def, then postgame and to improve his own shot possibilities.

btw i've read the whole thread and i can't understand your case. You can't compare apples with oranges. You can eat both of them but you cant compare them with eachother.

[Dizzle-2k7]

i knew dirk was underrated but i didnt know it was this bad.

[haterofhaters]

i knew dirk was underrated but i didnt know it was this bad.
How the hell is Dirk underrated. Everyone has crowned him as the MVP already and say that he's arguably the best player in the NBA..

[haterofhaters]

No, Dirk was maybe told by Nelly not to create his own shot. He practiced it with his German coach in one of his preseasons. I read about 4 years ago an interview with him and he said, that he wann work first on his def, then postgame and to improve his own shot possibilities.

btw i've read the whole thread and i can't understand your case. You can't compare apples with oranges. You can eat both of them but you cant compare them with eachother.

I'm assuming Nelly would tell him not to create his own shot because he had one of the best set up guys in the game running alongside him, in addition to the fact that his spot up shot was great. Also, where is this great defense of Dirk that i'm hearing about. How come he's never been on an all-defensive team?

[MaxFly]

We're comparing the leading MVP candidate to someone who isn't even a top 10 player in the league guys... Dallas wouldn't be as good as they are with the inclusion of Okur and the absence of Dirk. Utah would be a better team if Okur were to be replaced with Dirk. Reason: Dirk is an overall better player, and specifically, a far better scorer than Okur.

[moaz]

Also, where is this great defense of Dirk that i'm hearing about. How come he's never been on an all-defensive team?

Didn't say anything about him being great defender. Just said that 4 years ago he admitted that he needed to improve his def (among other things). I think he did a decent job there.

[haterofhaters]

We're comparing the leading MVP candidate to someone who isn't even a top 10 player in the league guys... Dallas wouldn't be as good as they are with the inclusion of Okur and the absence of Dirk. Utah would be a better team if Okur were to be replaced with Dirk. Reason: Dirk is an overall better player, and specifically, a far better scorer than Okur.

For the love of God, will someone please answer my question. It's not would they be as good it's HOW GOOD WOULD THEY BE! It's a simple question and can anyone give a simple answer??

[moaz]

For the love of God, will someone please answer my question. It's not would they be as good it's HOW GOOD WOULD THEY BE! It's a simple question and can anyone give a simple answer??

ok
Dallas bad 40-50 team
Utah great first year > 50 , second yaer >60.

[haterofhaters]

ok
Dallas bad 40-50 team
Utah great first year > 50 , second yaer >60.
Thank you for being one of the few who actually answered my my question. If I could give you an award I would. :applause:

My assesment is that Dallas would be a 50-55 win team.

[Timmy D for MVP]

This topic is rididculous. Look Dirk can shoot from almost anywhere on the floor. The fact that he's 7 ft makes it hard to guard him since most bigs can't play perimiter defense that well. That being said most perimiter defenders give up a lot of size so Dirk can just shoot over them. My point is he can spread the defense very well which makes the defending team concentrate a lot of energy on him, meaning his teamates get good looks. I doubt Okur could have that same kind of impact as he has. You want to know how good they'd be? Mabey 40-45 wins and a first round exit.

[malek4980]

Dallas might fight for the fourth seed in the West. I don't think Howard is a number one option nor is Terry. So defences could pretty much play man to man coverage throughout the game without worrying about getting burned. They also wouldn't have to worry about mismatches since they could guard Okur with another slow forward without worrying about Okur blowing past slower players.

It's kind of like replacing Lebron with Mike Miller. Though Mike Miller is a better shooter than Lebron, there is nothing Okur does better than Nowitzki.

[haterofhaters]

Dallas might fight for the fourth seed in the West. I don't think Howard is a number one option nor is Terry. So defences could pretty much play man to man coverage throughout the game without worrying about getting burned. They also wouldn't have to worry about mismatches since they could guard Okur with another slow forward without worrying about Okur blowing past slower players.

It's kind of like replacing Lebron with Mike Miller. Though Mike Miller is a better shooter than Lebron, there is nothing Okur does better than Nowitzki.

Fair enough

[haterofhaters]

But Dirk doesn't necessarily blow by guys with his blinding speed either. Which is the reason why he usually takes a couple of dribbles and then stops up for the J over top of the defender.

[Timmy D for MVP]

But Dirk doesn't necessarily blow by guys with his blinding speed either. Which is the reason why he usually takes a couple of dribbles and then stops up for the J over top of the defender.

And that's all it takes.

[haterofhaters]

And that's all it takes.
If you're 7 feet, or 6'11 in Okurs case, you don't even have to be fast. Are you saying that Okur is not capable of taking a couple of dribbles and then stopping for a pull up J? Sure he doesn't do it now, but it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to think that he is capable.

[MaxFly]

Dallas might fight for the fourth seed in the West. I don't think Howard is a number one option nor is Terry. So defences could pretty much play man to man coverage throughout the game without worrying about getting burned. They also wouldn't have to worry about mismatches since they could guard Okur with another slow forward without worrying about Okur blowing past slower players.

It's kind of like replacing Lebron with Mike Miller. Though Mike Miller is a better shooter than Lebron, there is nothing Okur does better than Nowitzki.

Pretty good assessment.

[haterofhaters]

Pretty good assessment.
but not nearly as good as this one.


We're comparing the leading MVP candidate to someone who isn't even a top 10 player in the league guys... Dallas wouldn't be as good as they are with the inclusion of Okur and the absence of Dirk. Utah would be a better team if Okur were to be replaced with Dirk. Reason: Dirk is an overall better player, and specifically, a far better scorer than Okur.

[Brunch@Five]

Dallas' whole system would collapse without Dirk, because with Okur instead of him opposing teams could go single coverage on everyone. Dallas wouldn't have a go-to scorer. They'd barely win 50 games, if at all.

Haterofhaters, just being a decent shooter and tall doesn't make you able to emulate Dirk's style of play. If you think that this is all Dirk does you have no clue about the game of basketball. Dirk knows when to drive and when to shoot, he knows how to effectively seal off his man and get the ball. He has no problem shooting with a hand in his face and being pushed around. That's without saying that Dirk has maybe the best shot in the NBA.
You can't just assume that Okur can do all that without having proven it.

[haterofhaters]

Dallas' whole system would collapse without Dirk, because with Okur instead of him opposing teams could go single coverage on everyone. Dallas wouldn't have a go-to scorer. They'd barely win 50 games, if at all.

Haterofhaters, just being a decent shooter and tall doesn't make you able to emulate Dirk's style of play. If you think that this is all Dirk does you have no clue about the game of basketball. Dirk knows when to drive and when to shoot, he knows how to effectively seal off his man and get the ball. He has no problem shooting with a hand in his face and being pushed around. That's without saying that Dirk has maybe the best shot in the NBA.
You can't just assume that Okur can do all that without having proven it.

And you have no clue how to read a thread.

[Brunch@Five]

And you have no clue how to read a thread.

yes I have. You were saying that Dallas was able to continue win at a high rate even with Okur instead of Dirk; that Okur could emulate Dirk's playing style just because "he's tall and can shoot".

[haterofhaters]

Let me simplify my thoughts for those who don't understand the english language.
#1 Dirk is a top 5 player in the league without a doubt.
#2 He is arguably the top MVP candidate though a case could be made for Nash again.. but he's top 2 without argument.

So having established that those are my thoughts on those matters, here's what my question is yet again....

I guess I should word it like this. With all of the talk about the Mavs depth, do you think that if you added another player who is about his height and a good outside shooter (If you can think of anyone other than Okur, then put him there instead) that they could still be a TOP FOUR team in the west, not the top ONE, a top FOUR. Understand?? Quatro, 4 FOUR, FOUR!! I hope i'm clear now.

[Brunch@Five]

I guess I should word it like this. With all of the talk about the Mavs depth, do you think that if you added another player who is about his height and a good outside shooter (If you can think of anyone other than Okur, then put him there instead) that they could still be a TOP FOUR team in the west, not the top ONE, a top FOUR. Understand?? Quatro, 4 FOUR, FOUR!! I hope i'm clear now.


Dallas' whole system would collapse without Dirk, because with Okur instead of him opposing teams could go single coverage on everyone. Dallas wouldn't have a go-to scorer. They'd barely win 50 games, if at all.

maybe you go and try to improve your reading comprehension?

[haterofhaters]

Dallas' whole system would collapse without Dirk, because with Okur instead of him opposing teams could go single coverage on everyone. Dallas wouldn't have a go-to scorer. They'd barely win 50 games, if at all.

lol, i guess you accidently agreed with me.

[boozehound]

. take the most(or one of the most) unique player(s) in the nba
Most Unique?:hammerhead:
:roll: :roll:

[Brunch@Five]

lol, i guess you accidently agreed with me.

50 games is not a top 4 record in a healthy west.

Suns
Jazz
Spurs
Rockets
Lakers

would all be better than the Mavs

[saKf]

Replacing Nowitzki with Okur creates a huge dropoff. Dallas loses homecourt advantage in the first round, for sure. 5-8 seed.

[lakers-city]

50 games is not a top 4 record in a healthy west.

Suns
Jazz
Spurs
Rockets
Lakers

would all be better than the Mavs

the lakers arent gonna win 50, the rockets probably wont either.

[haterofhaters]

50 games is not a top 4 record in a healthy west.

Suns
Jazz
Spurs
Rockets
Lakers

would all be better than the Mavs

The fact of the matter is that I said they would win about 50 games, and so did you. Case closed.:cheers:

[Brunch@Five]

keyword is healthy.

If we're playing "what if", i might as well assume that everyone is healthy.

[Brunch@Five]

The fact of the matter is that I said they would win about 50 games, and so did you. Case closed.:cheers:

you asked whether they'd still have a top 4 record. THe answer is no

[SupermanOnSteroids]

I've seriously started to wonder this the more I watch the Jazz play. Mehmet Okur is exactly the same type of player as Dirk. The only real differences I see are that he's a bit slower and a shorter. Granted, Dirk shoots at a much higher fg% which brings most of the seperation but they do have similar game types. So my question is do you think that were he to be plugged into the Mavs and Dirk taken away, would they have a record that's similar to what they have now?
i don't know if it was actually his intent, but it almost sounds like the thread was started with the intent of taking points away from the whole Dirk for MVP bandwagon that's been loading up on ISH. but it blew up horribly in his face. now he's acting like it was a simple question of how good Okur would be replacing dirk, but then why was the thread title "Questioning Dirk." :confusedshrug:

[FabCasablancas]

I guess I should word it like this. With all of the talk about the Mavs depth, do you think that if you added another player who is about his height and a good outside shooter (If you can think of anyone other than Okur, then put him there instead) that they could still be a TOP FOUR team in the west, not the top ONE, a top FOUR. Understand?? Quatro, 4 FOUR, FOUR!! I hope i'm clear now.

You don't realize how good Dirk is offensively and defensively... and how much better he makes the players around him.. the reason the Mavs look so deep is because of Dirk.. he makes all the inefficent scoers on the Mavs look like good scorers.. you replace him with and average offensive player like Mehmet and the whole thing collapses.. Dirk's impact isn't just on a game by game basis.. it's a cumulative effect that changes the entire psyche of the players around him.. people forget the past 2 seasons when Dirk had to literally carry this team on his back they were so poor.. but over time Dirk's impact was to raise the game of the players around him. You put a different player there that is mediocre and the whole thing collapses..

[FabCasablancas]

But Dirk doesn't necessarily blow by guys with his blinding speed either. Which is the reason why he usually takes a couple of dribbles and then stops up for the J over top of the defender.

If Dirk was guarded by 7 footers regularly he would blow by them like Allen Iverson.. this is why teams put such small player son Dirk.. and why Dirk changes the way defenses guard hm.. which creates all kinds of mismatches offensively and on the boards for the Mavs.. this is also why he makes the role players around him -- inefficient scorers -- look so good.

[jasonterry]

this also reminds me of last year when people were wondering if Dirk was really any better than Gasol. We all saw how that went.

wow i don't think i could have put it any better. and okur is a poor man's Gasol, to boot

[Skywalker]

of course he is, who else ? kg ?! lol with 30 wins per season he sure "dominates"

how the **** is Dirk dominant in the high post?

*Dirk beats the Wolves on a last secodn fadeaway 15 footer*

Dallas fan next day: "Dirk is more dominant in the high post than KG"

Realistic human being: "Stick it in your ass homer, he doesn't even touch KG"

Dallas fan: "Yeah KG sure is great in the high post, EVEN THOUGH HE LOST! HE LOST, BAH, HE ISNT DOMINANT"

stfu... please

All this winning means everything non sense is getting to me. It means everything to the players and fans, but not when judging a players greatness as a player. Sure it's nice to win, but what can KG do? Mcfail is running the Wolves.

[raiderfan19]

its not because he wins that dirk is better in the high post than garnett. its because hes better at getting to the rim off the reverse pivot and has a better turnaround jumper(garnetts goto move out of the high post is a turnaround too)

[saKf]

The turnaround jumper is Garnett's go-to move in the LOW post.

The jab step eventually leading to mid-range jumper is high go-to move in the HIGH post.

[raiderfan19]

The turnaround jumper is Garnett's go-to move in the LOW post.

The jab step eventually leading to mid-range jumper is high go-to move in the HIGH post.
dirks better at that to :banana:

[saKf]

Well then, Dirk's just better at everything. Close thread.

[FabCasablancas]

All this winning means everything non sense is getting to me. It means everything to the players and fans, but not when judging a players greatness as a player. Sure it's nice to win, but what can KG do? Mcfail is running the Wolves.

Great players make the players around them better.. KG doesn't.. and KG can't close out games..

People don't realize that not only does Dirk put up 30 points per game when he wants to.. he could put up 40 if he felt like it.. and on top of that he is creating all kinds of MISMATCHES for his teammates offensively and on the boards.. this is how Dirk MAKES his teammtes better.. KG is the one who is equivalent to Mehmet Okur.. not Dirk.. Dirk is in a different stratosphere..

[Skywalker]

thats what it comes to when arguing with raiderfan about Dirk :p

[raiderfan19]

Well then, Dirk's just better at everything. Close thread.
no hes not better at everything. kg has his strengths too but dirk is the better player.

[Skywalker]

Greta players make the players around them better.. KG doesn't.. and KG can't close out games..

KG doesnt make players around him better? Smoke another one cracky.


KG is the one who is equivalent to Mehmet Okur.. not Dirk.. Dirk is in a different stratosphere..

No, he REALLY ISN'T. Just stop. That's insanity.

[DreamRockets]

hakeem with a 2.5 assist career average and shaq with a 2.8 assists career average made his teammates far better than marbury who averages 8 assists in his career, so don't pull some lame stat about KG's assists, show us how he TRULY makes his teammates better.

[Skywalker]

assists don't mean jack, hakeem with a 2.5 assist career average made his teammates far better than marbury who averages 8 assists in his career, so don't pull some lame stat about KG's assists, show us how he TRULY makes his teammates better.

Sorry for pulling that stat. Wait.... I DIDN'T, WTF!?

And comparing a C to a PG? I wonder who the **** averages more assists. GOD DAMN.

[DreamRockets]

Sorry for pulling that stat. Wait.... I DIDN'T, WTF!?

And comparing a C to a PG? I wonder who the **** averages more assists. GOD DAMN.

who compared a center and a pg ? i only showed that a true great makes his teammates better even if he doesnt handle the ball 24/7 as a pg does.

[saKf]

who compared a center and a pg ?
You did in your last post, in which you compared Hakeem Olajuwon to Stephon Marbury.

[MaxFly]

If KG were on a contender, putting up similar stats to those he's putting up now, many would believe that he's better than Dirk.

[Skywalker]

who compared a center and a pg

you ruled out assists mattering because Marbury averages more than Dream.

[FabCasablancas]

See.. the key is that Dirk can put up 30-40 with a 6'6 guy guarding him...

If Dirk had a 7 footer guarding him he would put up 50+ points per game because he would blow by them every play..

KG can score 20 per game with a 6'6 guy guarding him..

and 30 per game with a 7 footer guarding him..

People don't realize what this means.. KG could NEVER do this.. he doesn't have an offensive game diverse enough to do this.. he's not quick enough.. KG doesn't change the way teams play defense.. KG ISN'T a matchup nightmare as coaches say Dirk is..

When coaches say Dirk is a matchup nightmare.. it is because when you try to defend him it makes his teammates so much better.. coaches have said Dirk and Shaq were the biggest matchup nightmares in the league.. the fact that KG isn't in there shows the difference in these 2 players... and it shows hoiw Dirk makes his teammates better and KG doesn't..

[FabCasablancas]

If KG were on a contender, putting up similar stats to those he's putting up now, many would believe that he's better than Dirk.

If you swapped Dirk and KG Minnesota WOULD be a contender.. Dirk would make all those guys look better.. and Dirk closes games out where KG doesn't...

[DreamRockets]

you ruled out assists mattering because Marbury averages more than Dream.


You did in your last post, in which you compared Hakeem Olajuwon to Stephon Marbury.

lol, this is what i said:



hakeem with a 2.5 assist career average and shaq with a 2.8 assists career average made his teammates far better than marbury who averages 8 assists in his career

you make it sound like i was trying to make a pro-marbury post for averaging more assists than hakeem dumbasses, when in fact my point was exactly the oppossite: assists arent an indicator of making your teammates better, proven by 3 apg career players such as hakeem duncan and shaq being able to make their teammates better than a pg like marbury, get it now ?

[Skywalker]

KG ISN'T a matchup nightmare

Coach: "Tonight, you have KG"

Player: "Thanks for taking it easy on me today coach"

[Skywalker]

you make it sound like i was trying to make a pro-marbury post for averaging more assists than hakeem dumbasses, when in fact my point was exactly the oppossite: assists arent an indicator of making your teammates better, proven by 3 apg career players such as hakeem duncan and shaq being able to make their teammates better than a pg like marbury, get it now ?

:wtf:

[DreamRockets]

your pathetic jokes arent working you know ? after '04 when grandpa karl malone shut Kg down every notion of him as an elite player on pair with tim duncan dissappeared.

[DreamRockets]

:wtf:

what part you dont get ?

hakeem: better than marbury at making his teammates better.

marbury: worst than many players with lower apg careers at making his team mates better

conclusion: assists not always mean you are making your teammates better.

whar part you dont get ? it is clear as daylight.

[saKf]

If KG were on a contender, putting up similar stats to those he's putting up now, many would believe that he's better than Dirk.
There it is.

He wouldn't even have to be on a contender. Just clearly in the playoff picture. Maybe 5-6 spot right now.

[FabCasablancas]

Coach: "Tonight, you have KG"

Player: "Thanks for taking it easy on me today coach"

KG is tough for one player to guard.. Dirk is tough for a whole team to guard.. and he makes his team impossible to guard.. KG just doesn't have anywher enear that kind of consistent impact.. and Dirk is clutch where as KG is a choker..

[jasonterry]

Coach: "Tonight, you have KG"

Player: "Thanks for taking it easy on me today coach"

Wow,i seriously hope you aren't studying/working in a field in which logic plays a huge role. you have an amazing ability to take everything to an extreme.
saying garnett isn't a matchup nightmare like dirk is doesn't imply garnett is easy to guard. get a clue.

[saKf]

he makes his team impossible to guard.
Elaborate please.

[Skywalker]

KG's 04 WCF stats game by game:

16 10 2 2 2

24 11 3 2 1

22 11 7 0 0

28 13 9 1 1

30 19 4 1 1

22 17 2 1 2


Elaborate please.

please

[jasonterry]

Elaborate please.

on dirk? thats pretty easy to explain. no one else on dallas is a really good shooter, and he opens up the floor for all of them. he gives terry tons of time to set up because of the pick and roll and he gives josh howard an infinite amount of open lanes to slash (howard doesn't really have many moves). when dirk goes out, just watch how the offense goes to crap. no one gets wide open shots anymore

[DreamRockets]

KG's 04 WCF stats game by game:

16 10 2 2 2

24 11 3 2 1

22 11 7 0 0

28 13 9 1 1

30 19 4 1 1

22 17 2 1 2

now back to the facts:

40 yr old grandpa malone played him to a virtual wash in game 1 :oldlol:

shaq owned him on the boards

he only shot 45%

[saKf]

So, when it's convenient for your argument, Josh Howard no longer has moves and Jason Terry's no longer a good shooter?

I'm not saying that Garnett is clearly better than Nowitzki, but let's be reasonable. They're on the same level. Nowitzki isn't on some higher plane that Garnett can't touch. "Nowitzki makes his team unguardable" is one of the more ridiculous things I've read in a while.

[raiderfan19]

dirk is without question the better offensive player but KG is a stud too. If this thread had been could the mavs still be a great team with kg instead of dirk i would have given it alot more credence and agreed that there was at the very least an argument to be made though i still think there would be some slippage. I think dirk is the better player but the difference is nowhere near as huge as some are making it out to be.

[Skywalker]

40 yr old grandpa malone played him to a virtual wash in game 1

W/E. Everyone has bad games. They probably threw George at him more than they did Malone. Can't remember.

[Brunch@Five]

KG's 04 WCF stats game by game:

16 10 2 2 2

24 11 3 2 1

22 11 7 0 0

28 13 9 1 1

30 19 4 1 1

22 17 2 1 2

Dirk Nowitzki, 2002 playoffs vs KG

30/15
31/15
39/17

:confusedshrug:

[saKf]

now back to the facts:

40 yr old grandpa malone played him to a virtual wash in game 1 :oldlol:

shaq owned him on the boards

he only shot 45%
The game's bigger than that.

Cassell and Hudson were both injured, which would have opened things up for Garnett considerably.

[Skywalker]

I think dirk is the better player but the difference is nowhere near as huge as some are making it out to be.

only delusional Dallas fans. raiderfan, take your team back to the huddle and give htem a good lecture, THESE GUYS ARE MORONS.

[jasonterry]

So, when it's convenient for your argument, Josh Howard no longer has moves and Jason Terry's no longer a good shooter?

I'm not saying that Garnett is clearly better than Nowitzki, but let's be reasonable. They're on the same level. Nowitzki isn't on some higher plane that Garnett can't touch. "Nowitzki makes his team unguardable" is one of the more ridiculous things I've read in a while.

i think nowitzki and garnett are pretty equal. but everything i just said is true.
put howard with a guy who works off isolations all day and he'd be exposed. terry doesn;t really do much except score. you should really watch the mavs when dirk goes out. their inability to get anything going is pretty remarkable.

[Skywalker]

Dirk Nowitzki, 2002 playoffs vs KG

30/15
31/15
39/17

KG in the same series:

19/21/6/2/1

31/18/4/3/2

22/17/5/2

what are you trying to prove?

[Brunch@Five]

KG in the same series:

19/21/6/2/1

31/18/4/3/2

22/17/5/2

what are you trying to prove?


nothing, but that both Dirk and KG have put up huge numbers in the playoffs. ANd since this has gone a bit Dirk vs KG, I thought I'd post these stats :confusedshrug:
both players are great, and I think KG is a better player for most teams in the NBA , but not for the Mavs

[DreamRockets]

KG in the same series:

19/21/6/2/1

31/18/4/3/2

22/17/5/2

what are you trying to prove?

seeing the numbers he posted and the numbers you posted i think the point was that dirk clearly outplayed Kg when they met, the next year shaq outplayed Kg, the next year Kg wins mvp and what happens ? shaq outplays him once again, the next 2 years (soon to be 3) Kg has failed to even make the playoffs.

dirk > Kg

easy choice.

[FabCasablancas]

Elaborate please.


Dirk makes his team impossible to guard because to even "remotely" defend Dirk you have to put a smaller defender on him.. when you do this you compromise your entire defense.. offensively and on the boards.. AND Dirk still puts up 30-40 points per game AND STILL requires double teams..

So what you have is Dirk putting up 30-40 points.. AND drawing double teams.. AND because Dirk has a smaller defender on him it creates mismatches all over the court for his teammates to take advanatge of.. PLUS the rebounding problems Dirk creates for the opposing team..

KG doesn't require this.. you can put a 7 footer on KG and cover him single coverage and KG will maybe score thirty.. once in a blue moon he might scare 40.. and KG won't give you the scoring in the 4th quarter Dirk does..

If you defended Dirk like this.. no doubles.. a 7 footer rather than a 6'6 guy.. Dirk would score 50 to 60 points EVERY game..maybe more.. this is no joke..

So because teams have to compromise their defense to defend Dirk it allows the Mavs to get all these inefficent scoers and put them around Dirk.. and he makes them all better.. this is how these crappy scorers like Stack and Terry and Harris and Howard cna look so good next to Dirk.. because of the mismatches and the compromised defense.. Dirk makes inefficient scorers efficient.. this is the entire key to the Mavs success.. and the difference between Dirk and KG.. and all the other scorers in the league really.. guys like Kobe.. Wade.. Arenas..

These guys are scoring like Dirk.. but they are doing it against a team that doesn't have to completely COMPROMISE THEIR DEFENSE WHILE these guys are putting up 30.. Dirk is doing both..

[saKf]

If you defended Dirk like this.. no doubles.. a 7 footer rather than a 6'6 guy.. Dirk would score 50 to 60 points EVERY game..maybe more.. this is no joke..
Do you honestly expect to be taken seriously when typing things like this?

[Skywalker]

OK!

Dirk is a better offensive player than KG! Already established 317491489041 DAYS AGO!

The best part of KG, is his defense, which is SO MUCH BETTER than Dirk's. It's what makes it close.

[RidonKs]

I got bored reading this thread midway through the second page, but still, you guys honestly think Okur is just a spotup shooter? Yes, he can shoot, but the guy has a very legit postup game with a beautiful fadeaway. It's not on Dirk's level because Dirk may very well be the best in the league at it, but that doesn't mean Memo's isn't any good.

Okur is one of those guys that's as close to being a "Dirk" as we might be able to get. He's basically a tad bit worse at everything Dirk does well. A great shooter, but not on Dirk's level, a decent ballhandler, but not on Dirk's level, an average defender, but still probably a little worse than Dirk (although he is the better shotblocker). Only thing Dirk does a whole lot better is passing, something Dirk isn't amazing at, but something Okur probably needs to work on a bit more.

Still though, it's not an outrageous comparison. I think the Mavs could still be at least a 6th seed with Okur in place of Dirk, and maybe even better. Heh, they'd still be first in the East. :)

[-primetime-]

Dirk = winner

KG = loser

and that is the real difference between the two

[raiderfan19]

honestly i might have said the same things about jet last year but ive been EXTREMELY impressed with his passing this year. His assist numbers dont truly show just how well he has moved the ball this year. As for dirk, i think the supporting casts individual talents are generally overrated while the minnesota teams individual talents are generally underrated. The difference is that the mavs team just fits together perfectly. You can give some credit for that to dirk but most of it needs to go to A) donnie nelson for putting together a roster that fits so perfectly together and B) avery for getting that roster to sacrifice what could be better numbers for the good of the team.


As for jason terry's shooting, that guy can flat out shoot the ball. He may be the only consistent shooter outside of dirk on the mavs, but there is no need to make up arguments to further dirks case. Dirk is a stud. Its obvious. No need to embellish things to make him look better.

As for kg vs dirk the way i see it is that dirk is a truly dominant offensive player while i wouldnt quite put kg in that area. Kg is a better defender and rebounder. I would choose dirk to build around if i had to pick one because I think its easier to find role players to defend and rebound then to find a role player than can score at will.

[Skywalker]

completely COMPROMISE THEIR DEFENSE

Adjustments are obviously made retard. You'd be a pretty good coach. ****!


Dirk = winner

KG = loser

and that is the real difference between the two

Dirk has won an awful lot. WTF? When did Dirk become Bill Russell. That MF'ers fingers are bare as KG's. Homers are having a reunion in this thread.

[DreamRockets]

Dirk = winner

KG = loser

and that is the real difference between the two

words of wisdom :cheers:

" BUT...but put Kg on the spurs and hell win 3 rings !!" :cry:

"but but put Kg in the mavs and he'll win more rings than bill russell" :lol:

have some cheese with that wine ? :violin:

[FabCasablancas]

It's the truth... when do teams ever guard Dirk with their big and without double teams?

Most guys without doubles can maybe put up 30 to 40 points consistently.. and this is without Dirk getting the calls other stars get..

Dirk is unguardable.. Dirk is a perimeter shaq but without the calls shaq gets..and Dirk hits his freethrows..

[raiderfan19]

I got bored reading this thread midway through the second page, but still, you guys honestly think Okur is just a spotup shooter? Yes, he can shoot, but the guy has a very legit postup game with a beautiful fadeaway. It's not on Dirk's level because Dirk may very well be the best in the league at it, but that doesn't mean Memo's isn't any good.

Okur is one of those guys that's as close to being a "Dirk" as we might be able to get. He's basically a tad bit worse at everything Dirk does well. A great shooter, but not on Dirk's level, a decent ballhandler, but not on Dirk's level, an average defender, but still probably a little worse than Dirk (although he is the better shotblocker). Only thing Dirk does a whole lot better is passing, something Dirk isn't amazing at, but something Okur probably needs to work on a bit more.

Still though, it's not an outrageous comparison. I think the Mavs could still be at least a 6th seed with Okur in place of Dirk, and maybe even better. Heh, they'd still be first in the East. :)
ummm where are you getting that okur is a better shotblocker from? also as far as pfs go dirk is pretty amazing as a passer. and yes memo is mostly a spot up shooter which is why such a huge percentage of his baskets are assisted.

[raiderfan19]

hey i love dirk as much as anyone but are we really using the fact that kg got outplayed twice by prime shaq in the playoffs as a mark against him???

[DreamRockets]

Dirk is unguardable.. Dirk is a perimeter shaq but without the calls shaq gets..and Dirk hits his freethrows..

very well put, kg is EXTREMELY talented but he does not DOMINATE, period, dirk does.

[DreamRockets]

double post

[Skywalker]

Ok so this is how it goes:

KG:
Offense- great

Defense- great

Rebounding- dominant

Dirk:
offense- dominant

defense- average

rebounding- average

wtf? I'll let someone say Dirk is better. It's arguable. But saying Dirk is on another level is flat out ridiculous.



shaq wasn't in his prime in 2003 and 2004 anymore, he had been steadily declining since the '02 season, 00-01 shaq would have EMBARASSED Kg to no avail

wtf is your point? he would have dropped 40 and 40 on Dirk. Dumb ass.

[RidonKs]

Do you honestly expect to be taken seriously when typing things like this?

I think we passed this point back when Fab said Dirk only gets 1/4 of the FT's he deserves. When someone (me) pointed out to him that that would mean he should shoot 40 FT's per game, he responded "yes, it would" with (what we believe was) a nod and a grin.

[DreamRockets]

hey i love dirk as much as anyone but are we really using the fact that kg got outplayed twice by prime shaq in the playoffs as a mark against him???

shaq wasn't in his prime in 2003 and 2004 anymore, he had been steadily declining since the '02 season, 00-01 shaq would have EMBARASSED Kg to no avail :lol:

are we forgetting duncan owned Kg as well in the '01 playoffs ?

there go all the "KG >> duncan" theories down the toilet, OWNED :violin:

[raiderfan19]

shaq wasn't in his prime in 2003 and 2004 anymore, he had been steadily declining since the '02 season, 00-01 shaq would have EMBARASSED Kg to no avail :lol:
he wasnt in his career year anymore but he was still in his prime. thats like saying anything outside of 04 isnt kgs prime.

[RidonKs]

Ok so this is how it goes:

KG:
Offense- great

Defense- great

Rebounding- dominant

Dirk:
offense- dominant

defense- average

rebounding- average

wtf? I'll let someone say Dirk is better. It's arguable. But saying Dirk is on another level is flat out ridiculous.

Adding rebounding and not including passing doesn't really make sense. Although the two of them are probably fairly equal passing the ball anyways.

[DreamRockets]

22/11 (what he got in '04) arent numbers of a prime shaq, his prime was 1998-2002.

[raiderfan19]

Ok so this is how it goes:

KG:
Offense- great

Defense- great

Rebounding- dominant

Dirk:
offense- dominant

defense- average

rebounding- average

wtf? I'll let someone say Dirk is better. It's arguable. But saying Dirk is on another level is flat out ridiculous.





dirks rebounding is as good as garnetts O so i would call both good not dirk average and kg great at O. I think dirk is better but like you said its close. Basically on a scale of 1-10 i would say dirk is about a 9.6 and kg is a 9.4 or 9.5 something like that.

[raiderfan19]

btw... When you make statements that result in me arguing against dirk, you have clearly gone overboard.

[RidonKs]

ummm where are you getting that okur is a better shotblocker from? also as far as pfs go dirk is pretty amazing as a passer. and yes memo is mostly a spot up shooter which is why such a huge percentage of his baskets are assisted.

From what I've seen, just like you. A quick fact check shows me I'm wrong, but maybe I'm basing too much off of the clutch block(s) Memo's made.

And Memo is a great spot up shooter, but he is also a very adept post-up player, with a nice midrange jumper. He's got some decent postmoves as well.

And Dirk isn't an "amazing" passer. He's a good passer, above average, but it's not exactly a strongsuit. Not a liability either, but not a strength.

[DreamRockets]

well, sadly i haven't gone overboard, ask anybody if they think 21points and 11 rebounds per game are the numbers a prime shaq put, they will all say no, still the best big man in the league, but no longer playing like the MDE.

[Skywalker]

lol

Arguing with you in the past made me like Dirk more, because I realized how good he really was. But arguing with Fab and this other guy (who is he btw?) makes me wanna kill Dirk and take a picture of his head on a plate and post it, because it's all lies.

[jasonterry]

From what I've seen, just like you. A quick fact check shows me I'm wrong, but maybe I'm basing too much off of the clutch block(s) Memo's made.

And Memo is a great spot up shooter, but he is also a very adept post-up player, with a nice midrange jumper. He's got some decent postmoves as well.

And Dirk isn't an "amazing" passer. He's a good passer, above average, but it's not exactly a strongsuit. Not a liability either, but not a strength.

lol you must never watch dirk play then..he has averaged liked 8 assists for the past 10 games..his passing ability is unsurpassed right now for a big guy. iif the mavs weren't destroying everyone lately, he probably would have several triple doubles

[DreamRockets]

dirk is one hell of a passer, most of Kg's assists come from impersonating as a Pg and handling the ball a lot, he isn't a quality passer in the post or out of a double team like dirk is.

[FabCasablancas]

btw... When you make statements that result in me arguing against dirk, you have clearly gone overboard.

right... because your opinion should define everyone eles regarding dirk...

[jasonterry]

dirk is one hell of a passer, most of Kg's assists come from impersonating as a Pg and handling the ball a lot, he isn't a quality passer in the post or out of a double team like dirk is.

a month ago, dirk had 7 assists by halftime vs the Magic..he's just been on a tear lately. i don't think people watch him enough

[Skywalker]

dirk is one hell of a passer, most of Kg's assists come from impersonating as a Pg and handling the ball a lot, he isn't a quality passer in the post or out of a double team like dirk is

Just say it. Dirk is a better passer than KG in your opinion. Stop beatin' around the bush. Say it. Make yourself look dumb.

[dejordan]

dirk is one hell of a passer, most of garnett assists come from impersonating as a Pg and handling the ball in the perimeter, he isn't a quality passer out of a double team like dirk is.
there are four forwards i've ever seen pass better than kg out of the high post. larry bird (best forward ever), scottie pippen, karl malone, and chris webber. barkley was a better passer from the low post and off the dribble. other than that it's kg all the way. i lived in minneapolis in the winter of 2001/2 and you know how flip runs all the curls around cweb right now? that used to be garnett. add to that a tremendous ability to pass off the dribble for a four (not charles, but very good for a big man) and not a lot of guys can do that. his problem with passing out of the low post is that he likes the left block but he can't hold position deep enough to open the full court for passing, so there's just the one angle to the wing, and if you overplay and he has no dribble, he's totally trapped. and that is a legit knock on his game. and actually it's one that dirk might have too except that he gets his shots off so fast he's pretty much untrappable on the baseline (like ewing was).

[DreamRockets]

Just say it. Dirk is a better passer than KG in your opinion. Stop beatin' around the bush. Say it. Make yourself look dumb.

huh, i already did :) why not ? as i said, Kg averaging more assists per game doesnt mean JACK SHYT, duncan in the spurs is a far better passer than parker and yet only averages half the assists, Kg is clueless when it comes to passing out of a double team, dirk has mastered that skill, Kg prances in the perimeter taking soft ewinesque jumpers, result ? other teams use single coverage on him, dirk demands double teams and creates mismatches, which leads to him making a pass to the mavs slashers for an easy layup, result ? 50-9 record so far, game over.

[Skywalker]

Ok well a guy who has witnessed KG play and pass live just told you, someone who goes off what people say, that you are wrong. So shut up.

[DreamRockets]

pathetic dude, instead of even trying to counter any of my points all you do is say" your wrong" and your reason "Kg is my fav player and im a big groopie :cheers: "

[-primetime-]

I don't know why everyone here thinks dirk is a bad passer...he has come close to having a triple double in his last 8 games or so...

Dirk doesn't have as many assits as Lebron or others because dirk is a forward...

if dirk brought the ball in every play like lebron he would average 30 assits a game...

terry and harris get most of dallas's assits...

dirk is a great passer, don't fool yourselves...

[20 Dimes A Game]

Dirk = Superstar
Memo = Star (just)

[Skywalker]

I am not a KG groopie. An example of a groopie is Fab with Dirk. He makes claims that would be equivalent to me saying "KG could average 35 a game if he had Kidd as his poitn guard".

DEJORDAN proved you wrong. A credible poster who has lived in Minny and watched KG play DUMB ****.

[raiderfan19]

I don't know why everyone here thinks dirk is a bad passer...he has come close to having a triple double in his last 8 games or so...

Dirk doesn't have as many assits as Lebron or others because dirk is a forward...

if dirk brought the ball in every play like lebron he would average 30 assits a game...

terry and harris get most of dallas's assits...

dirk is a great passer, don't fool yourselves...
and this is why people dont take us seriously. Dirk could do anything he wanted and he still couldnt come close to 30 assists a game. also lebrons a forward too... :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Dirks a great player, Kgs a great player. I think dirk is better but its not unfathomable to argue that kg is a better player.

[Skywalker]

dirk is a great passer, don't fool yourselves...

ok, hes a good passer, but KG is better

[Skywalker]

Dirk could do anything he wanted and he still couldnt come close to 30 assists a game

ROFLMAO

thank you for pointign that out to me, wow laughable

THIS IS COMEDY!!

[DreamRockets]

yeah, ok, so dejordan says it so its true ? there is no difference between watching a game live or on Tv when making an analisys, in fact watching it on TV is better because you have the commentators and experts giving all their opinions, not to mention multiple replays, anymore off-topic garbage you feel like spewing around ? :violin:

dirk = dominate passer, makes his teammates better with his passing, leads to wins.

Kg = statistical passer, doesnt make anybody but his own stats better with his passing, leads to losses.

lmao, when you try to come up with what some other user in ISH said and proclaim it as gospel out of desperation really shows you've hit bottom :lol:

[-primetime-]

ROFLMAO

thank you for pointign that out to me, wow laughable

THIS IS COMEDY!!

it was a joke...

I guess i should have inserted a little gay smiley face to note sarcasm...???

obviously no one could average 30 assits a game...

[Skywalker]

dirk = dominate passer, makes his teammates better with his passing, leads to wins.

Ok so Dirk is a dominant passer, shooter, rebounder, defender. Dirk is the GOAT. No more need to talk about it. Dirk would hold Wilt to 2 points and 1 rebound. Dirk could kill Jack Bauer with a pellet gun. Dirk could jump the wall of china.

It's clear to me that you are a Dirk groopie disguised as a Rockets fan so no one could call you a Dirk groopie but your true colours are showing.

[-primetime-]

Ok so Dirk is a dominant passer, shooter, rebounder, defender. Dirk is the GOAT. No more need to talk about it. Dirk would hold Wilt to 2 points and 1 rebound. Dirk could kill Jack Bauer with a pellet gun. Dirk could jump the wall of china.
It's clear to me that you are a Dirk groopie disguised as a Rockets fan so no one could call you a Dirk groopie but your true colours are showing.

he could do all of those things and still never get the respect he deserves from people like you...

[FabCasablancas]

I am not a KG groopie. An example of a groopie is Fab with Dirk. He makes claims that would be equivalent to me saying "KG could average 35 a game if he had Kidd as his poitn guard".

DEJORDAN proved you wrong. A credible poster who has lived in Minny and watched KG play DUMB ****.

You know whats funny... before Nash went to Phoenix I was trying to tell everyone Nash was a top ten player.. and the dumbasses like yourself called me a Nash group!e and said it was ridiculous to think Nahs is a top ten player let alone MVP.. now the same dumbasses like yourself are saying Nash is the 3 time MVP..

I am sure in the future you will be proven to be a dumbass as well.. though it's obvious right now to me..

[DreamRockets]

Ok so Dirk is a dominant passer, shooter, rebounder, defender. Dirk is the GOAT. No more need to talk about it. Dirk would hold Wilt to 2 points and 1 rebound. Dirk could kill Jack Bauer with a pellet gun. Dirk could jump the wall of china.

It's clear to me that you are a Dirk groopie disguised as a Rockets fan so no one could call you a Dirk groopie but your true colours are showing.

hehe, going through PM's now ? :)

don't even bring wilt to the discussion, wilt is an all-time great who no one could stop, this diluted league allows for someone like Kg to even be considered a top big man in the nba, put him in the 90's and he doesnt hold a candle to the barkley's, robinsons's, hakeem's, shaq's, malone's and ewing's of the league, he would be considered tom chambers, the rulers of old are past their primes and as shaq and duncan declined dirk managed to become the best big man in the league, don't confuse going against an old shaq and duncan with going against all-time greats in their primes..... still having Pm's ? :lol:

[Skywalker]

You know whats funny... before Nash went to Phoenix I was trying to tell everyone Nash was just a top ten player.. and the dumbasses like yourself called me a Nash group!e.. now the same dumbasses like yourself are saying Nash is the 3 time MVP..

I am sure in the future you will be proven to be a dumbass as well.. though it's obvious right now to me..

It's obvious to the whole board you're a dumbass.

And all you did there was prove that you were still a homer back then because Nash was NOT top 10 back then. Homerz4lyfe!

[dejordan]

yeah, ok, so dejordan says it so its true ? there is no difference between watching a game live or on Tv when making an analisys, in fact watching it on TV is better because you have the commentators and experts giving all their opinions, not to mention multiple replays, anymore off-topic garbage you feel like spewing around ? :violin:

dirk = dominate passer, makes his teammates better with his passing, leads to wins.

Kg = statistical passer, doesnt make anybody but his own stats better with his passing, leads to losses.

lmao, when you try to come up with what some other user in ISH said and proclaim it as gospel out of desperation really shows you've hit bottom :lol:

okay, so what you say here in this brush off email is TRUE, but my well-spelled out description of how garnett went about being a tremendous passing forward is just opinion. hm.

anyway i wasn't so much trying to say that garnett is definitively better at making his teammates better than dirk, just that he has more passing abilities. dirk's passes tend to come off brush screens and doubles in the high / mid post where he hits cutters, curlers, and spot shooters on the right wing. his timing is good. his execution is good. but he's not a guy who can (or at least who DOES) manufacture a passing angle by getting the defense in motion and using great body control or court vision to hit guys with lazerbeam passes. that may be a product of the offense they run that he doesn't have to show that kind of creativity more than it is his ability, but you know, maybe bill russell would have averaged 35 pts a game in another system, we can't assume people have a talent they haven't shown. kg on the other hand is asked to simply create points since saunders left and it's actually hurt his assist numbers because the team's not running a motion offense anymore. i'm actually surprised to hear that kg is still averaging more dimes than dirk.

[Skywalker]

don't even bring wilt to the discussion, wilt is an all-time great who no one could stop, this diluted league allows for someone like Kg to even be considered a top big man in the nba, put him in the 90's and he doesnt hold a candle to the barkley's, robinsons's, hakeem's, shaq's and ewing's of the league, he would be considered tom chambers, the rulers of old are past their primes and as shaq and duncan declined dirk managed to become the best big man in the league, don't confuse going against an old shaq and duncan with going against all-time greats in their primes..... still having Pm's ?

I'm not goign to bother with you anymore. You twist words like no one I've ever seen.


don't confuse going against an old shaq and duncan with going against all-time greats in their primes

When did I do anything close to this?

Am I goign through private messages? wtf? you're unstable kid.

[DreamRockets]

anyway i wasn't so much trying to say that garnett is definitively better at making his teammates better than dirk, just that he has more passing abilities. dirk's passes tend to come off brush screens and doubles in the high / mid post where he hits cutters, curlers, and spot shooters on the right wing

which is exactly why dirk is the better passer of the 2, he demands double teams which inevitably lead to someone being open, be it to take it to the hole or make an open jumpshot, Kg handles the ball and tries to be steve nash on the court, thats not how a big man gets it done, he should play close to the rim and demand double teams in the low post.

[Skywalker]

Kg handles the ball and tries to be steve nash on the court

It's clear you have never watched KG play. CRYSTAL clear. Why are you stating BS like this? Lying to yourself? Lying to everyone just to make Dirk seem better?

[DreamRockets]

I'm not goign to bother with you anymore. You twist words like no one I've ever seen.

When did I do anything close to this?

Am I goign through private messages? wtf? you're unstable kid.

again, for the 537643746th consecutive time you don't have a single refutal to any of my point, you just have a crush on Kg and can't accept the fact that others are better...and yet im the groopie showing his colors ? :lol:

[Skywalker]

you didn't make any points

you blurted out random comments that had nothing to do with anything

what grade are you in? I hope you're not past grade 8

[DreamRockets]

It's clear you have never watched KG play. CRYSTAL clear. Why are you stating BS like this? Lying to yourself? Lying to everyone just to make Dirk seem better?

it's the sign of a groopie to cherry pick one line in a post just because it hurts your fragile ego, of course i've seen plenty of Kg, duncan/dirk/shaq owning his ass in the '01-04 playoffs was priceless and i would pay to see it again :pimp:

[Skywalker]

Nobody owns KG. KG holds his own against the best. KG's team has never held up against those guy's teams.

[Brunch@Five]

Is it really that difficult for everyone to agree that KG and Dirk are equals as players? Dirk obviously gets more praise and media attention because he is on the best team in the NBA.

However, being equal in terms of skill, it doesn't mean that they're both worth the same. A scoring superstar, an offensive machine is ALWAYS worth more than an all-round player or even defensive specialist.
Defense and rebounding you can get from role-players, you don't necessarily need it from your superstar and go-to guy. That's why Dirk succeeds in Dallas, the management has understood Dirks shortcomings and found the perfect players to surround him. Dirk can concentrate on offense, and is helping his team more doing this than KG is in Minny, trying to (having to) do everything.
Surround KG with players that fit, and his team will contend for a title, though it's harder to find players that fit him than finding players that fit Dirk.

When KG had a premier playmaker (Sam Cassell) and effective scoring from the wing (Spree, Sczcerbiak)on his team, he suddenly made the conference finals.

KG needs:

C: banger, strong rebounder and defender
SG/SF: consistent and efficient scoring, decent defense
PG: A playmaker that makes it work

DIrk needs:

C: banger, strong rebounder and defender
SG/SF: efficient scoring, great defense
PG: decent distributor and great shooter to make the pick and roll work

McHale has continuously failed to put the right players around KG, except for one year, but this was only a short-term solution with no future.

Give KG a management as great as Dallas', and he be contending for the title every year.

[Skywalker]

Is it really that difficult for everyone to agree that KG and Dirk are equals as players? Dirk obviously gets more praise and media attention because he is on the best team in the NBA.

It really is, for these Mavs fans who think Dirk is up there with Wilt and Kareem and Hakeem.

[SupermanOnSteroids]

somehow i knew FOR SURE that this would evolve from Dirk v Memo into Dirk v KG. waiting for Dirk v present day Duncan now.

[DreamRockets]

It really is, for these Mavs fans who think Dirk is up there with Wilt and Kareem and Hakeem.

i never said dirk was up there, but in this league deluted of quality big man he stands out above the rest.

[dejordan]

which is exactly why dirk is the better passer of the 2, he demands double teams which inevitably lead to someone being open, be it to take it to the hole or make an open jumpshot, Kg handles the ball and tries to be steve nash on the court, thats not how a big man gets it done, he should play close to the rim and demand double teams in the low post.
so because coach... who coaches the wolves? anyway because interim coach b tells kg to go to the elbow and create, and his teammates stand around watching him, he's not a great passer? what's funny is that i think we agree on one thing here. dirk's being used much more efficiently than garnett, and he is responding perfectly to his directions from coach johnson. but demanding a double team and finding the open man doesn't make you a great passer in my opinion. it makes you a smart player and a good teammate. hell ewing did that for a decade and was consistently in the late rounds of the playoffs but in terms of being a skilled passer i doubt any but the most diehard knicks fans would rate him very high. anyway, i'm pretty sure at this point we're arguing semantics. "passing skill" vs. "team play" and i gotta go. good luck hatyrs and ******** alike!:rockon:

[Skywalker]

the way it's going soon it will be Dirk vs. Wilt and then Dirk vs. God.

Gathered fro mthis thread there are Dallas fans who think if given the proper circumstances Dirk could average 60+ pts. 12 reb and 30 ast. Need I say more?

[raiderfan19]

the way it's going soon it will be Dirk vs. Wilt and then Dirk vs. God.

Gathered fro mthis thread there are Dallas fans who think if given the proper circumstances Dirk could average 60+ pts. 12 reb and 30 ast. Need I say more?
no just ignore them. were not all that delusional.

[DreamRockets]

so because coach... who coaches the wolves? anyway because interim coach b tells kg to go to the elbow and create, and his teammates stand around watching him, he's not a great passer? what's funny is that i think we agree on one thing here. dirk's being used much more efficiently than garnett, and he is responding perfectly to his directions from coach johnson. but demanding a double team and finding the open man doesn't make you a great passer in my opinion. it makes you a smart player and a good teammate. hell ewing did that for a decade and was consistently in the late rounds of the playoffs but in terms of being a skilled passer i doubt any but the most diehard knicks fans would rate him very high. anyway, i'm pretty sure at this point we're arguing semantics. "passing skill" vs. "team play" and i gotta go. good luck hatyrs and ******** alike!:rockon:

fck the coach, unless your coach is phil jackson, avery, riley, popovich or sloan there is no point in listening to him :rockon:

[Skywalker]

raidefan your avatar is my msn pic :D

did you lose a bet or is Kansas your team?

[SupermanOnSteroids]

the way it's going soon it will be Dirk vs. Wilt and then Dirk vs. God.

Gathered fro mthis thread there are Dallas fans who think if given the proper circumstances Dirk could average 60+ pts. 12 reb and 30 ast. Need I say more?
yes he could. the only thing that stops him is that he has to pass the ball to austin croshere to keep the locker room happy. dirk > dr. phil.

[raiderfan19]

raidefan your avatar is my msn pic :D

did you lose a bet or is Kansas your team?
i lost a bet to another ut fan(on the celebrity game during all star weekend) but it was only for one day. However, i just love this avatar so i just kept it. I like kansas but i wouldnt go so far as to call them my team.

[FabCasablancas]

It really is, for these Mavs fans who think Dirk is up there with Wilt and Kareem and Hakeem.

If KG was on the Mavs doing exactly what Dirk is doing people would be saying he is better than Wilt and Kareem.. becuas eit's Dikr they say dirk is just lucky to be on a great team.. KG diud less than Dirk the seaoson he won MVP and he was unanimously MVP.. Dirk might not even win the award..

If it was Kobe it would be the same thing.. just like this season.. Kobe let's his tema do more an dhe gets credit for it.. not Phil like Avery for the Mavs.. not the team like on the Mavs.. it's Kobe getting all the credit.. it would b even more so if the Lakers were as successful as the Mavs..

Dirk doesn't even get the4 respect from officials guys like KG, LeBron, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq and Wade get.. yet his team is more successful..

what does that tell you? If it had a brain it would tell you how much better Dirk is than these guys in spite not even getting respect from officials..

[FabCasablancas]

raidefan your avatar is my msn pic :D

did you lose a bet or is Kansas your team?

Looks like we have a love connection.. Tmacs with himself. once again..

[Skywalker]

KG diud less than Dirk the seaoson he won MVP and he was unanimously MVP

no he didn't, why you lie?

and he wasn't unanimous IIRC, TD and Tmac were up there.



Looks like we have a love connection.. Tmacs with himself. once again..

huh? this makes no sense

I'm doen i nthis thread. Gotta get out before the retard rubs off on me.

[raiderfan19]

BTW i just noticed the deluted big man argument. I agree that centers are deluted but i have some news for you dream, Kg isnt a center. Deluted talent isnt even remotely an argument to be used against any of the pfs from this era. This is the golden era of pfs in nba history. Kg has played at the same time as 5 of the top 10 pfs in the history of the nba(including himself) All of them but malone were at their absolute peak at some point during his career and malone was still close to his best during kgs career. Kg is not playing deluted talent at the 4 position and to argue otherwise is just foolish. I also fail to see how it would warrant a mention in a dirk/kg debate considering both play in the same era even if it was true.

[DreamRockets]

when teams don't have a good Pf guess who they match up against another elite Pf in the opossing team ? tip of the day: it isn't the point guard, in the lakers/spurs series guess who was matched up against shaq, it wasnt parker or ginobili, it was duncan.

centers and Pf's battle each other on the boards and the paint, which is why it matters that centers are almost gone.

the golden era of Pf's ? Kg, duncan (who is a center), dirk, who else ? jermaine o'neal is a joke, brand never makes the playoffs, the ELITE Pf's in this league are far less than you make it out to be, it's Kg, duncan and dirk (amare and howard are centers), and duncan is declining.

[Skywalker]

It would merit it because he's a moron. But at least he's more on than more off.

As for the Dirk doing more than KG did in his MVP season, I would like to know what you think on this one raiderfan?

[FabCasablancas]

no he didn't, why you lie?

and he wasn't unanimous IIRC, TD and Tmac were up there.


"ESPN.com - NBA - Garnett wins MVP award by landslide"

"Garnett earns 120 of 123 first-place votes"

http://www.google.com/search?q=kg+mvp+vote&hl=en&safe=off&client=opera&rls=en&hs=kr0&start=10&sa=N

[Skywalker]

ok, I was wrong, it wasn't close

and Dirk isn't doing close to what KG did that year

[FabCasablancas]

ok, I was wrong, it wasn't close

and Dirk isn't doing close to what KG did that year


Dirk is doing more.. his contributions don't show up on the stat sheet though.. he makes players better without assists and even helps his team rebound because of his perimeter game and three point shooting.. and his tema is much more successful.. it's not how many stats you put up but when you put them up.. all Dirk's stats are quality stats.. Dirk does his scoring in the 4th quarter unlike KG.. Dirk also doesn't get the respect form officials like KG does.. if he did the Mavs would be even more ridiculously good..

[Skywalker]

Wow. Does God hate Dirk too?

KG's MVP Season:

24.2 ppg, 13.9 rpg, 5.0 apg, 2.2 bpg, 1.5 spg, 58 wins, 1st seed in the Western Conference, WCF appearance in which they lost after taking the star studded LA Lakers to 6 even with an injury riddled roster.

Keep doubting KG, he'll get his ring one day.

[SupermanOnSteroids]

Gods don't hate Dirk. Dirk is a God. A Norse God.

Right Fab? :)

[SupermanOnSteroids]

Gods don't hate Dirk. Dirk is a God. A Norse God.

And then one day the Norse God looked down upon the earth and told Jon Steffanson that you shall bear my baby.

And that baby was named 41forMVP.

41forMVP looked just like a cross between the Norse God and Steffanson with his long flowing blond hair and his Steffanson good looks.

When 41forMVP professed this truth in a message board full of 12 year old girls praising the Norse God, he did not know that one day, he would come to rue that post.

Some time later, during a duel between 41forMVP and the infamous TMacs on the db.com board, the evil TMacs went back and pulled out that post and revealed to everyone 41forMVP's truth.

41forMVP went over the edge, and went Nash and Don Nelson left one by one, his heart was torn into shreds that his dream of an all white NBA team will no longer come true.

41forMVP was so distraught that he even proposed that the Mavs trade the Norse God to Milwaukee for the #1 pick Andrew Bogut and accused Avery Johnson of purposely sabotaging Dirk's career.

After a few loud tantrums, 41forMVP was not seen around again at db.com.

41forMVP vowed that he would create a message board with a tolerant environment that would listen to every point of view and he appointed himself its moderator.

After months of chatting with his own aliases on his own board, 41forMVP grew tired of their point of views and started banning them eventually banning himself off his own board because he was starting to grow suspicious that he himself might be Tmacs.

Then 41forMVP found the light and followed it to a crack dealer and re energized his crack pot theories rechristened himself as Fabcasablanca and logged on to ISH.

And the rest is history.





Am I right Fab? :)
I know you're dad was supposed to be in the Jon Steffanson story there somewhere, but I think I pretty much got the gist of it.

[AI Nuggets3]

i'll say this about Okur.........he is RIDICULOUSLY clutch.

[Carbine]

This topic is not worthy.

I'll tell you why:

It's not about how similar their games are - it's about how effective they are at doing it. Okur would never be able to sustain the type of pressure on the defense that Dirk does.

Maybe for one game or two, but not on the consistant game to game basis Dirk does. It's why the Mavericks would lose about 10-15 more games with Okur in Dirks place.

Okur is a great role player, but the Mavericks with him would be a lot like the Pistons of a few years back - a lot of quality players but no star... except the Pistons played much, much better defense and that was what won them games and in the end a championship.

You know.

[kentatm]

prime Keith Van Horn is a much better comparison to Dirk than Okur.

(not saying he is equal to the Dirk of now)

[kentatm]

Gods don't hate Dirk. Dirk is a God. A Norse God.

And then one day the Norse God looked down upon the earth and told Jon Steffanson that you shall bear my baby.

And that baby was named 41forMVP.

41forMVP looked just like a cross between the Norse God and Steffanson with his long flowing blond hair and his Steffanson good looks.

When 41forMVP professed this truth in a message board full of 12 year old girls praising the Norse God, he did not know that one day, he would come to rue that post.

Some time later, during a duel between 41forMVP and the infamous TMacs on the db.com board, the evil TMacs went back and pulled out that post and revealed to everyone 41forMVP's truth.

41forMVP went over the edge, and went Nash and Don Nelson left one by one, his heart was torn into shreds that his dream of an all white NBA team will no longer come true.

41forMVP was so distraught that he even proposed that the Mavs trade the Norse God to Milwaukee for the #1 pick Andrew Bogut and accused Avery Johnson of purposely sabotaging Dirk's career.

After a few loud tantrums, 41forMVP was not seen around again at db.com.

41forMVP vowed that he would create a message board with a tolerant environment that would listen to every point of view and he appointed himself its moderator.

After months of chatting with his own aliases on his own board, 41forMVP grew tired of their point of views and started banning them eventually banning himself off his own board because he was starting to grow suspicious that he himself might be Tmacs.

Then 41forMVP found the light and followed it to a crack dealer and re energized his crack pot theories rechristened himself as Fabcasablanca and logged on to ISH.

And the rest is history.





Am I right Fab? :)
I know you're dad was supposed to be in the Jon Steffanson story there somewhere, but I think I pretty much got the gist of it.

holy crap 41forMVP is Fab????

well that explains alot then.

[johndeeregreen]

prime Keith Van Horn
People really forget how good of a player a young Van Horn was.

[different107]

i'll say this about Okur.........he is RIDICULOUSLY clutch.

He's good in the clutch, but idk about ridiculously

[haterofhaters]

Ok so Dirk is a dominant passer, shooter, rebounder, defender. Dirk is the GOAT. No more need to talk about it. Dirk would hold Wilt to 2 points and 1 rebound. Dirk could kill Jack Bauer with a pellet gun. Dirk could jump the wall of china.
.
Exactly. This is all that we're allowed to say. Dirk = God:bowdown:

[TheHonestTruth]

Okur is damn clutch, but he's only the 3rd best player in the league after Nash and Dirk.

[Living Being]

I agree that Dirk is better, but I think that if Okur were to be put on the Mavs in place of Dirk they would have similar success. Maybe not quite as much as they do now, but would be a top 3 team in the leauge nonetheless.
:lol :banana:

[ArbitraryWater]

the perfect thread for the likes of aj and samurai swish

[aj1987]

the perfect thread for the likes of aj and samurai swish
True. Dude needed a GOAT level choke from LeBron to win a ring, and all of a sudden he's top whatever all time and higher than Dr. J... :facepalm

The '11 ring doesn't erase the fact that he frequently choked massively in the PO's.

[ArbitraryWater]

True. Dude needed a GOAT level choke from LeBron to win a ring, and all of a sudden he's top whatever all time and higher than Dr. J... :facepalm

The '11 ring doesn't erase the fact that he frequently choked massively in the PO's.

Like I said, please refrain from ever speaking about Dirk :lol I could do some exact same absurd hypothetical for Wade... dude choked in '11, 0-3 the final 6 minutes of game 2 as a 15-point lead erased and he got his shit pushed in, and missed the game tying FT in game 4, and then a no show in game 6... only lucky that the refs called the game the way they did in the NBA in '06, otherwise wouldnt have any rings without piggybacking Bron..

thats how easy you can make it look. Thats for people as dumb as you, though.

[aj1987]

Like I said, please refrain from ever speaking about Dirk :lol I could do some exact same absurd hypothetical for Wade... dude choked in '11, 0-3 the final 6 minutes of game 2 as a 15-point lead erased and he got his shit pushed in, and missed the game tying FT in game 4, and then a no show in game 6... only lucky that the refs called the game the way they did in the NBA in '06, otherwise wouldnt have any rings without piggybacking Bron..
Game 2 - Wade scored 9 points in the first four and a half minutes. LeBron tries to takes over and fails massively, killing all the momentum. Missed 4 shots in a row. One of the shots Wade missed was a desperation heave.

Game 4 - LeBron scored 8 points on 4-13 shooting. Lets not ignore that. Wade also made a shot right after that FT, bringing Miami within 1. LeBron? 0 points and 2 TOV's in the 4th.

Game 5 - Again, almost 0 points from LeBron in the 4th, except for the 2 at the end of the game. Brian Cardinal hip checks Wade and gets hurt.

http://www.espn.in/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/news/story?id=6646323

Where was LeBron during that?

Game 6 - 4 meaningful points from LeBron in the 4th. :oldlol:

http://i68.tinypic.com/dbsgoj.jpg
http://i66.tinypic.com/4tkkdy.png

But yeah, lets chalk this up as a choke from the dude who averaged 27/7/5/2/2 on 62% TS.

Please refrain from discussing basketball. Ever.


thats how easy you can make it look. Thats for people as dumb as you, though.
As I said, stop talking about basketball, AutisticWater. Forever. You have literally no knowledge about the game or its history. Heck, you don't even know what actually happened in the '11 Finals.

[ArbitraryWater]

Game 2 - Wade scored 9 points in the first four and a half minutes. LeBron tries to takes over and fails massively, killing all the momentum. Missed 4 shots in a row. One of the shots Wade missed was a desperation heave.

Game 4 - LeBron scored 8 points on 4-13 shooting. Lets not ignore that. Wade also made a shot right after that FT, bringing Miami within 1. LeBron? 0 points and 2 TOV's in the 4th.

Game 5 - Again, almost 0 points from LeBron in the 4th, except for the 2 at the end of the game. Brian Cardinal hip checks Wade and gets hurt.

http://www.espn.in/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/news/story?id=6646323

Where was LeBron during that?

Game 6 - 4 meaningful points from LeBron in the 4th. :oldlol:

http://i68.tinypic.com/dbsgoj.jpg
http://i66.tinypic.com/4tkkdy.png

But yeah, lets chalk this up as a choke from the dude who averaged 27/7/5/2/2 on 62% TS.

Please refrain from discussing basketball. Ever.


As I said, stop talking about basketball, AutisticWater. Forever. You have literally no knowledge about the game or its history. Heck, you don't even know what actually happened in the '11 Finals.

look at all that text.. so many "LeBron"s in there.. thats when you know you're on a MELTDOWN, kiddo

[aj1987]

I'm way out of my depth here, so I'll resort to being a flaming ******.
Good for you.

[Milbuck]

Game 2 - Wade scored 9 points in the first four and a half minutes. LeBron tries to takes over and fails massively, killing all the momentum. Missed 4 shots in a row. One of the shots Wade missed was a desperation heave.

Game 4 - LeBron scored 8 points on 4-13 shooting. Lets not ignore that. Wade also made a shot right after that FT, bringing Miami within 1. LeBron? 0 points and 2 TOV's in the 4th.

Game 5 - Again, almost 0 points from LeBron in the 4th, except for the 2 at the end of the game. Brian Cardinal hip checks Wade and gets hurt.

http://www.espn.in/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/news/story?id=6646323

Where was LeBron during that?

Game 6 - 4 meaningful points from LeBron in the 4th. :oldlol:

http://i68.tinypic.com/dbsgoj.jpg
http://i66.tinypic.com/4tkkdy.png

But yeah, lets chalk this up as a choke from the dude who averaged 27/7/5/2/2 on 62% TS.

Please refrain from discussing basketball. Ever.


As I said, stop talking about basketball, AutisticWater. Forever. You have literally no knowledge about the game or its history. Heck, you don't even know what actually happened in the '11 Finals.https://cdn.meme.am/instances/400x/49543944.jpg

[Im Still Ballin]

30/11/9/2.3/2.6 on 49%

:applause:

[ArbitraryWater]

Milbuck done missed the whole point just like AJ mang

thought you were a Dirk guy :cry: