Does anyone actually think KD is the best player at the moment? [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

retaxis

02-10-2014, 09:09 AM

From someone who has watched the NBA for years, we learned never to jump to conclusions too early.

Remember when Nash won back to back MVPs?

Remember when Iverson won the MVP?

Remember Derrick Rose winning the MVP?

A lot of these players were considered great in the regular season but underperformed in the playoffs (no championship..ever).

Now whether we are playing basketball on the playground or for your university, its a common rule that you aren't the best till you beat the best 'meaningfully' aka in an important game.

A lot of people said Lebron was the best player in the league while he was in the Cavs but even Lebron fans deep down knew all the MVPS don't mean anything until he 'gets it done' then you can crown him 'the king'. Lebron was giving teams beat downs and getting 66-16 records (MVP honors) as a Cavalier but because he couldn't 'get it done' people were still hesitant to name him the best.

In order for the real basketball fans to say 'Durant is a better NBA player then Lebron.' Durant has to get it done...just once.

T_L_P

02-10-2014, 09:11 AM

retaxis

02-10-2014, 09:12 AM

The NBA post season is definitely different from the RS.

1. Your playing against the best teams

2. The paint is packed and people chase you off the 3pt line.

3. Defensive and Offensive schemes are far more complex

4. Ball is in the post majority of the time compared to in the perimeter

5. Your playing against superstars/allstars

6. Pressure is on

Durant, like all those before him, has to win it all under these circumstances in order for him to be crowned the finals MVP aka the real MVP.

retaxis

02-10-2014, 09:15 AM

If, at the end of the season, Durant fails to win a ring with his team healthy (i.e. Westbrook is back), then it would be pretty hard to call him the clear-cut best on the planet.

As of right now, of course he is. His stats are murdering everyone else's, and his team has the second best record in the league without a legit second option.

Durant is only playing super hard atm because he never had an MVP before and it will be his first.

RS you have to take many things into consideration e.g. taking rest, not showing offensive/defensive sets you want to use in the playoffs aka not playing your absolute best, dealing with team mates/one self cruising/taking it easy, different levels of focus and intensity, dealing with different schedules e.g. b2b games, taking time off for family/friends/relationships etc etc

In the playoffs all of that goes away, it is a team running their best sets under the utmost focus (without other distractions in their lives). This is when we see who is the best.

Bush4Ever

02-10-2014, 09:17 AM

Any basketball fan worth his salt knows the MVP does not perfectly correlate with being the best player in the league.

With respect to KD, he is at the place of his career where he is going to get major movement to his legacy only through playoff success, despite the dizzy statistics he has put up this year.

He'll eventually get there too. But the point is that per his legacy, the action isn't going to be from him scoring 31 a game vs. 28, or having a PER of 30 vs. 27, or any of those differences. It will be from going from 0 rings to 1 ring, 1 ring to 2, etc...

retaxis

02-10-2014, 09:20 AM

Any basketball fan worth his salt knows the MVP does not perfectly correlate with being the best player in the league.

With respect to KD, he is at the place of his career where he is going to get major movement to his legacy only through playoff success, despite the dizzy statistics he has put up this year.

He'll eventually get there too. But the point is that per his legacy, the action isn't going to be from him score 31 a game vs. 28, or having a PER of 30 vs. 27, or any of those differences. It will be from going from 0 rings to 1 ring, 1ring to 2, etc...
Well said:D

I am a Lebron fan since he was drafted (and a fan of a few other players including Kobe, KD, Howard and CP3) but all this talk about his efficiency and whatever means sh1t to me unless there is a W.

Magic731

02-10-2014, 09:44 AM

Kevin Durant is the best player in the league right now. Anyone who has watched basketball knows this. What happens at the end of the season, I don't really care about until we are there. What 'could' happen in a couple of months doesn't change the fact that right now, in the present, Kevin Durant is dominating the NBA.

ImKobe

02-10-2014, 09:47 AM

At this moment, Durant is obviously the most productive player in the league. He's carrying a team Cleveland Lebron style and is putting up historic numbers, just came off another 40 point game with 1 assist shy off a triple double while Lebron had a 4-13 shooting night with 6 turnovers and lost against the worst team in the West. KD isn't just beating middle of the pack teams with 20-30 points, he's putting up huge numbers against the top teams of the league, outplaying Lebron and Melo head to head. He is the leading candidate for the MVP.

Nash was different, he was winning a lot of games, but he wasn't putting up stats as crazy as KD is and he had a lot of help on that roster from Marion, Amare and Joe Johnson during their primes. It's not a knock against Nash, but his situation is not comparable to KD's, neither is Rose's.

KD will win the MVP and the scoring title, and probably will be in the defensive 1st team and obviously NBA first team. He's having one of the best seasons by a perimeter player in NBA history. That's how good he is right now.

knicksman

02-10-2014, 09:52 AM

except that hes not Iverson nor nash. nash has a player which is arguably better than him. While there was no expectation for Iverson to win a ring. Whereas Durant is on the same league as Jordan and other all time greats. And his competition is LeBron who hasn't proven anything w/o cheating. So by default Durant right now is the best player.

Mr Exlax

02-10-2014, 09:59 AM

Nobody actually thinks Durant is the best player in the NBA, but you can't deny that he's currently playing like the best player in the NBA. LeBron is still the best player in the NBA and I fully expect him to stop coasting and show it the last month of the season so that they hit their peak by the time the playoffs start.

retaxis

02-10-2014, 09:59 AM

Show me the ring then I will call you the best.

Mr Exlax

02-10-2014, 10:03 AM

Show me the ring then I will call you the best.

See I don't look at rings. LeBron James was the best player in the NBA to me, before he won a ring. It's very possible to be the best player on the floor and lose to a better team. Rings are a team accomplishment. No one player has won it by themselves. His teammates played a big part in that too.

jbryan1984

02-10-2014, 10:05 AM

retaxis

02-10-2014, 10:08 AM

See I don't look at rings. LeBron James was the best player in the NBA to me, before he won a ring. It's very possible to be the best player on the floor and lose to a better team. Rings are a team accomplishment. No one player has won it by themselves. His teammates played a big part in that too.
KD has a great team thats the difference where as Cavs Lebron had very bad team mates. Even now KD's team mates are arguably better then Lebron's team mates.

Westbrook arguably better then Wade at this point (Knees are bad)
Ibaka arguably better then Bosh at this point (softie softie)

they both have good role players so KD has really no excuses at all.

Trollsmasher

02-10-2014, 10:18 AM

Yeah, it's weird that some people proclaim him the best when there is a 95% chance that he will once again choke in the playoffs

r0drig0lac

02-10-2014, 10:19 AM

retaxis

02-10-2014, 10:21 AM

I will laugh if this happens

KD loses finals (like Lebron did in 11)

Next year goes: I was playing angry basketball which just isn't me, now I am playing better basketball and loving it.

Bush4Ever

02-10-2014, 10:23 AM

See I don't look at rings. LeBron James was the best player in the NBA to me, before he won a ring. It's very possible to be the best player on the floor and lose to a better team. Rings are a team accomplishment. No one player has won it by themselves. His teammates played a big part in that too.

There is a pretty big gap between what Lebron had for teammates in Cleveland and what KD has/had for teammates to date.

And like anything else, there are multiple variables that go into the pot that have to be weighed and evaluated against one another.

It is not like Durant has played absurdly above Lebron this season on an individual front to the point where team success differences would be given a trivial weight.

shallehalle

02-10-2014, 10:25 AM

I'm a Lebron fan, but KD right now is on another planet. He is the best player this season and it's not close. Lebron is having a good season by his standarts, but KD without RW is having one of the best streaches of all time, while shooting high percentages and scoring from everywhere.

I am starting to truly believe that KD can become the greatest player to ever play this game, which I would never think of before RW went down this season.

Dave3

02-10-2014, 10:27 AM

A lot of people said Lebron was the best player in the league while he was in the Cavs but even Lebron fans deep down knew all the MVPS don't mean anything until he 'gets it done' then you can crown him 'the king'. Lebron was giving teams beat downs and getting 66-16 records (MVP honors) as a Cavalier but because he couldn't 'get it done' people were still hesitant to name him the best.

In order for the real basketball fans to say 'Durant is a better NBA player then Lebron.' Durant has to get it done...just once.
This is where I disagree, and I don't think you're speaking for LeBron fans here. I thought LeBron was better than Kobe in 2009, long before he won a championship. I still think that LeBron during his later Cavaliers days played better than he has in either of his championship years (season or playoffs). Him winning in the later years with a good team only confirmed that he needed a better team to win, so in that sense winning did put him over the top, but it certainly wasn't because he played better in 12/13 than he did from 08-10.

If Durant "chokes" in the playoffs (which btw, he never has, despite what people want to say about his series against the Grizzlies) and does so in the future, then yeah, I'll look back on this season and say "but he could never get it done." If however he plays well in the playoffs (like he has his entire career save for his first ever series against the Lakers), it will only confirm that what we're seeing right now isn't some kind of fluke.

As it stands right now though, Durant is playing like the best player in the league. As far as I'm concerned, that's what makes you the best, not what you did last year or what you've done in your career up to this point. He's scoring at a ridiculous clip with what seems like no effort, and is doing it consistently (ie. it's not some hot streak).

IMObjective

02-10-2014, 10:42 AM

Dave3

02-10-2014, 10:49 AM

+1 for we have to wait a bit longer before proclaiming him king.

Playing the best atm is a bit different from being the consensus best, but it's pretty much guaranteed he'll be the consensus best pretty damn soon. For now it's still lebron.
Why though? If a younger player is playing better than an older player, what makes people think that things will reverse at any point? If someone is playing the best (and within context you can assume it's not some sort of fluke) then they are the best player, no?

IMObjective

02-10-2014, 11:34 AM

Why though? If a younger player is playing better than an older player, what makes people think that things will reverse at any point? If someone is playing the best (and within context you can assume it's not some sort of fluke) then they are the best player, no?
A small part is giving respect to LeBron's best in league play over the years, also have to consider the fact that LeBron's coming off 2 championships and is not really going after it every night like Durant is (though it's kinda funny that he couldn't really bring it after proclaiming that he was going to actually try now), but the biggest thing is waiting to see what happens in the playoffs.

If beta Bron shows up and Durant significantly outperforms him, I'm pretty sure there'll be a unanimous dethroning and crowning of a new king. The last time beta Bron f*cked his team over, even his own stans turned on him.

LoneyROY7

02-10-2014, 11:36 AM

I'm not a huge Durant fan persay, but he's without a doubt the best player in the league right now.

Obviously, that can change...but the numbers he's putting up at the moment are insane.

NumberSix

02-10-2014, 11:53 AM

I still find that Durant's performance relies too heavily on how the refs are calling the game.

KG215

02-10-2014, 12:11 PM

Durant is only playing super hard atm because he never had an MVP before and it will be his first.
Please tell me you don't actually believe that's the only reason. Surely you understand that's almost a requirement that he plays this hard as long as Westbrook is out in order to keep OKC in the hunt for the 1-seed in the West, correct?

mr.big35

02-10-2014, 12:21 PM

kd will win his first ring

NumberSix

02-10-2014, 12:24 PM

kd will win his first ring
In 2021 as a bench player for the Kansas City Kings.

Le Shaqtus

02-10-2014, 12:31 PM

Right now he's playing like the Best player in the league, and LeBron isn't really daring to chase him.

But LeBron isn't being topped until he loses in the post season, he's been pretty shit this year (for his standards) but I still think he's the best until he loses.

mr.big35

02-10-2014, 12:33 PM

In 2021 as a bench player for the Kansas City Kings.

wait till june and see him get that ring. book mark this post

zoom17

02-10-2014, 12:42 PM

Joyner82reload

02-10-2014, 01:00 PM

As much as I would love to say he is, he is not, LeBron is and probably will be for a long time yet. Durant is right there underneath him though imo. Its almost like in 1993, would you say Barkley was better than Jordan? Barkley had the best year of his career and they met in the finals. We know the end results.

:facepalm

Jordan 32.6/6.7/5.5 2.7 TOV 56.4 TS% 29.7 PER .270 WSp48 2nd in DPOY
Barkley 25.6/12.2/5.1 3.1 TOV 59.6 TS% 25.9 PER .242 WSp48 terrible defensively

What the hell argument does Barkley have over Jordan? Rebounding? Hell the Suns won 53 games the season before Barkley joined the team.

Barkley had no argument at being better than Jordan in the 93 season other than team wins. And that was largely attributed to the Suns having the best supporting cast in the NBA and Jordan's entire team getting worse from 92->93 while he improved.

Durant and LeBron on the other hand is a completely different story

31.2/7.7/5.5 3.5 TOV 64.5 TS% 31.2 PER .326 WSp48 #1 seed in West
26.1/6.9/6.6 3.5 TOV 65.2 TS% 28.6 PER .260 WSp48 #2 seed in East

Durant's been a MUCH better scorer, a better rebounder, a better defender, and damn near as good of a distributor while leading a team to the best record in the league without his 2nd option. This is nothing like a Barkley/Jordan 93' situation. This is a matter of Durant taking the next step. Hell 93 Barkley was no better than Barkley from 88-92. He just got on a damn good team and reaped the benefits for leading the league in W's. Barkley-Jordan 93' is comparable to Nash-Shaq in 2005. Durant-LeBron 14' is more like Jordan-Magic in 91'

Joyner82reload

02-10-2014, 01:15 PM

Slow down there.

There is nothing ridiculous about that statement. He didn't insinuate Durant would, or is even close to attaining that. But he is literally the most skilled/gifted basketball player to ever step on a court taking all things into consideration.

There is nothing Durant isn't capable of on a basketball court. He's almost 7 foot with elite athleticism, ridiculous handle, excellent footwork, otherworldly wingspan, and one of the best shots in NBA history. He has improved every year by leaps and bounds, eliminating his weaknesses year by year. What is his weakness at this point? What isn't he good at?

There is no way for any defender to stop him from scoring. It's not a LeBron make him shoot jumpers, or Kobe put a taller defender on him to bother his release. You put a guy that can contest his shot, he collapses the defense and gets a dunk or a wide open 3 for a teammate. You put a guard on him, he makes it rain jumpers all day. You double him, he sets teammates up all day. And he's even better off the ball than he is on it.

Defensively he still has a ways to go, despite being a very good defender at this point in time. He should be averaging 9~ rebounds per game and has the potential to be one of the GOAT perimeter defender's. Has he come close to realizing this yet? No, not even close. But the potential is there. 6'11 with that foot work/quickness/athleticism/wingspan is the prototype for a GOAT level defender at the SG/SF position. He just has to learn how make it mesh first. Hell he's one of the best SF defenders in the league on raw tools alone.

If he realizes his full potential, you're looking at the greatest scorer to ever play the game and a guy that can flat out lock down just about any non center in NBA history.

salwan

02-10-2014, 02:41 PM

you need to distinguish two things.

1. Durant is the best player so far this season.
2. LeBron is still the best overall player until kd wins a ring (or two)

Dave3

02-10-2014, 02:42 PM

A small part is giving respect to LeBron's best in league play over the years, also have to consider the fact that LeBron's coming off 2 championships and is not really going after it every night like Durant is (though it's kinda funny that he couldn't really bring it after proclaiming that he was going to actually try now), but the biggest thing is waiting to see what happens in the playoffs.

If beta Bron shows up and Durant significantly outperforms him, I'm pretty sure there'll be a unanimous dethroning and crowning of a new king. The last time beta Bron f*cked his team over, even his own stans turned on him.
It's not disrespecting LeBron to make an observation though. If you're saying you're putting LeBron ahead purely out of respect, you're actually acknowledging that Durant is better. LeBron isn't trying his absolute best this season that's true, but Durant right now is playing as well as LeBron has since he's been in Miami, and LeBron this year hasn't been as good as he has been the last couple of years.

It's fine to say let's wait until the playoffs if Durant historically bombs in the playoffs, and LeBron raises his game during them. Neither of which is really the case. They both play about the same during season and playoffs, so there's no precedent to think things will change dramatically as the year progresses.

BuffaloBill

02-10-2014, 02:45 PM

Yeah, it's weird that some people proclaim him the best when there is a 95% chance that he will once again choke in the playoffs

people said the same about bran for the longest

BuffaloBill

02-10-2014, 02:47 PM

I will laugh if this happens

KD loses finals (like Lebron did in 11)

Next year goes: I was playing angry basketball which just isn't me, now I am playing better basketball and loving it.

http://i.minus.com/ibtxIpvnvSm6e2.gif

ralph_i_el

02-10-2014, 03:56 PM

I hate how it's all about the ring nowadays. Nobody gets one on their own.

Black and White

02-10-2014, 04:00 PM

Durant is clearly the best player in the NBA, even NBA.com have jumped on the bandwagon by calling him King Kevin, LeBron got stripped of his prized nickname.

But seriously, there is no case for Bron over Durant this season, none.

Warfan

02-10-2014, 04:06 PM

I like KD more than Lebron and he's been playing great this year but to me lebron is still the best player in the league.

BlackVVaves

02-10-2014, 04:07 PM

pegasus

02-10-2014, 04:08 PM

Of course he is. Stats, eye test, win/loss column...everything proves that.

Keno

02-10-2014, 04:16 PM

pegasus I'm surprised you haven't committed suicide in the last 2 years with LeBron winning back-to-back MVPs/Finals MVPs.

funnystuff

02-10-2014, 04:18 PM

That ref babysit though. :bowdown:

Mr. Jabbar

02-10-2014, 04:20 PM

KD doesnt need playoff success to pass bran, as brans success there is pretty much a product of his teammates. In the east :facepalm

Keno

02-10-2014, 04:22 PM

KD doesnt need playoff success to pass bran, as brans success there is pretty much a product of his teammates

38.5/8/8 > Kobe's playoff career.

BlackVVaves

02-10-2014, 04:25 PM

Solefade

02-10-2014, 04:26 PM

KD is the best player so far this season yet, not the best player in the world yet though. gotta do more than just win in the regular season to sit on that throne...he hasn't even completely solidified his first MVP yet.

dynasty1978

02-10-2014, 04:37 PM

Every single one of you proclaiming the reason KD isn't the best player in the league (thusfar) this year is because he has not won a ring are conceding that LeBron was not the best player in the league in 2009 or 2010 (Would say Dwight was in 2011).

Good point and you're correct, Lebron wasn't the best until 2012 (when he actually developed some post-game, learned to play off-ball, and got over his mental blocks...stuff that was 2nd nature to Kobe).

The Lebron stans will bring up his 38, 8, 8 in the 09 ECF.
I'll take Kobe's 34, 6, 6 in the '09 WCF with the WIN vs. the above and a loss.

Legends66NBA7

02-10-2014, 04:43 PM

Remember when Nash won back to back MVPs?

Remember when Iverson won the MVP?

Remember Derrick Rose winning the MVP?

Durant is better than all those players right now. I don't really know how Nash under performed in 05 and 06 either. His level of play showed no real drop off, infact most would say he was better.

chazzy

02-10-2014, 04:47 PM

Does anyone not think he's the best currently?

nathanjizzle

02-10-2014, 04:50 PM

Dave3

02-10-2014, 05:42 PM

"at the moment" yes, KD is the best at the moment. so was d rose in 2011, and Iverson in his moments. just because lebron has 2 chips, means he can play mediocre but still be considered the "best" at the moment? idiot.
Lmao, Iverson and Rose have never been the best players in the league. Comparing KD to those guys is pretty insulting. As insulting as it is to Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, and LeBron to say those guys were better.

moe94

02-10-2014, 05:46 PM

"at the moment" yes, KD is the best at the moment. so was d rose in 2011, and Iverson in his moments. just because lebron has 2 chips, means he can play mediocre but still be considered the "best" at the moment? idiot.

Iverson and Rose were never the best players in the league. The latter was literally not even top 5.

LeBron
Howard
Wade
Dirk
Durant
Melo

Were all unarguably better. :biggums:

NumberSix

02-10-2014, 05:51 PM

Seems like the main difference is between who IS the best player and who HAS BEEN the best player so far this season.

Deuxrant HAS BEEN the best player of the season (so far) but LeBron IS the best player in the NBA.

Heavincent

02-10-2014, 05:59 PM

NumberSix

02-10-2014, 06:00 PM

This makes no sense.
A lot of things don't make sense to people with low IQs.

funnystuff

02-10-2014, 06:01 PM

This makes no sense.
You're a Kobe stan, stop defending KD to further your Lebron agenda.

Heavincent

02-10-2014, 06:05 PM

You're a Kobe stan, stop defending KD to further your Lebron agenda.

Says one of the most brain-dead dick riders on ISH.

Black and White

02-10-2014, 06:07 PM

Young X

02-10-2014, 06:08 PM

So far he has been, what objective argument could you use against him? It hasn't even been that close so far, the gap between KD and Bron right now is similar to the gap between Bron and KD last year. There's still ~30 games left tho, I wouldn't be surprised if Bron goes off like he did last year and reclaims his spot.

BuffaloBill

02-10-2014, 06:14 PM

SamuraiSWISH

02-10-2014, 06:28 PM

NumberSix

02-10-2014, 06:32 PM

Jordan always upped his game in the playoffs, Finals, or from perceived slights when compared to other elite contemporaries. LeBron has never been one to do any of those things on a consistent basis.

I can see the comparison to '93, even down to the Heat coasting in regular season and facing an upstart defensive power house who has an untouchable home record like the '93 Knicks, in Inidana. But Durant has the actual individual tools and makeup to beat LeBron, and Miami.
Can't see it.

Barkley had the supporting cast to beat the Bulls, but he lacked the mental makeup to really out perform Jordan.
Lol. Fcuking Jordan Stans. Do you even know what happened in that series?

funnystuff

02-10-2014, 07:18 PM

Says one of the most brain-dead dick riders on ISH.
http://static.gamespot.com/uploads/original/378/3789400/2384304-4390957522-CaryG.gif

EnoughSaid

02-10-2014, 07:48 PM

At this particular moment in time KD is playing at the highest level of anyone in the league. Might change after the All-Star break or might change in the Playoffs. But currently he is the best player in the league at the moment.

KendrickPerkins

02-10-2014, 07:55 PM

the second option for the Thunder today (ibaka) is better than the second option of most teams in the playoffs, so this is bs
:oldlol:

Like who? Wade on Miami? Hibbert on Indy? Duncan or Parker(whoever you consider the 2nd opt) on the Spurs? Lillard on Portland? Griffin on LAC? Lowry on TOR? He's better than none of those guys.

Relax dude. Talk about reaching. Big time. I love me some Ibaka too.

tommy3

02-10-2014, 08:30 PM

I can understand the Lebron stans' arguments right here. We all remember what every NBA fan was saying until Lebron's first ring. He was the clear-cut best basketball player since 2008 but barely anyone was acknowledging that.

The situation is very similar here. Durant has clearly had the better season and a rational person would always choose him over Lebron in a game. That doesn't mean much though, since form matters very much. Hell, people were calling George better than Durant after 10 games in this season.

We have seen consistency from Lebron through the years, and he will keep producing the same way he does every game. We don't know that for Durant, and he has not had success in the playoffs yet.

Anyway, if Lebron wins a ring over Durant this year, no one will say he's better. It's simply a vague and subjective criteria. Everyone looks at it differently.

SamuraiSWISH

02-10-2014, 08:39 PM

Can't see it.
You're a LeBron stan, of course you don't. The freakish size, athleticism, scoring package with efficiency. The now improved playmaking, and defensive abilities. Are you being blissfully ignorant.

Oh, and he doesn't seem like a coward.

Lol. Fcuking Jordan Stans. Do you even know what happened in that series?
LeBron stans, you weren't even watching ball then. Jordan was clearly the best player on the court for the entire series, and outperformed Chuck in the best individual season of his career. Guy averaged over 40 ppg on the biggest stage with the money on the table.

NumberSix

02-10-2014, 08:43 PM

You're a LeBron stan, of course you don't. The freakish size, athleticism, scoring package with efficiency. The now improved playmaking, and defensive abilities. Are you being blissfully ignorant.

Oh, and he doesn't seem like a coward.

LeBron stans, you weren't even watching ball then. Jordan was clearly the best player on the court for the entire series, and outperformed Chuck in the best individual season of his career. Guy averaged over 40 ppg on the biggest stage with the money on the table.
"You weren't watching basketball then" = automatic loss of argument.

And..... I didn't say Jordan wasnt better than Barkley. It's your reason as to why which is stupid.

SamuraiSWISH

02-10-2014, 09:24 PM

"You weren't watching basketball then" = automatic loss of argument.

And..... I didn't say Jordan wasnt better than Barkley. It's your reason as to why which is stupid.
"Do you even know what happened in that series?" = Automatic Loss.

I know what happened, the Bulls beat a deeper, more talented, 60+ win team in the Finals, led by a dominant regular season MVP ... but Michael Jordan out shined him on the biggest stage to the tune of:

41 / 9 / 5 in legendary, dominating fashion to win the first three peat since Russell's Celtics.

You were the one who claimed I didn't see the series. Yet I'm the Chicago Bulls / MJ fan. Makes total sense.

MJ outperformed Barkley on an individual level ... DRAMATICALLY, where as Barkley clearly had the deeper, more talented team. And was the one with the MVP trophy.

We're comparing LeBron's '14 to Jordan's '93. The similar context. The coasting in the regular season, facing a young talented, defensive minded ball club in their own conference.

A regular season where a player could've been considered to have been better in the regular season (Durant / Barkley) and then when the team's matched up in the playoffs or Finals ... one player totally separated himself from his contemporary (Jordan / possibly LeBron)

I said LeBron has a chance to do this, and you go on the butt hurt defensive. Get over it, don't be mad Jordan had legendary Finals performance where as at best LeBron puts up his typical averages.

Barkley, as acknowledged by numerous people didn't have fully what it takes mentally on an individual level to out perform Jordan. He ceded dominance to him all the time. The only player he's done it to. He's even admitted it on NBA TV. Saying things like "Mike was down right SCARY" ...

Barkley didn't have the full competitive spirit, or work ethic to go the full nine yards to win the big one. Pippen has said this, Jordan confided this behind doors, Drexler has said this.

He didn't put the energy on defense MJ did. Durant however, unlike Barkley. I don't think he's frightened by LeBron, and he's clearly shown the fortitude to put effort in on both ends. Thus having the individual tools, both physically and mentally to potentially out perform LeBron.

Hell, he already almost did it in 2012. LeBron by no means clearly outperformed Durant in that series. It was marginal at best.

NumberSix

02-10-2014, 09:29 PM

"Do you even know what happened in that series?" = Automatic Loss.
Fair enough.

PyrrhusX

02-10-2014, 09:29 PM

Can't see it.

Of course you cant, with Lebrons man juices in your eyes and flowing down your face.

:coleman:

NumberSix

02-10-2014, 09:35 PM

Can we all just agree that as far as clutch goes....

Jordan = Jack Bauer
LeBron = Tony Almeida
KD = Chloe O'Brien
Kobe = Ronnie Lobell

nathanjizzle

02-10-2014, 09:39 PM

Iverson and Rose were never the best players in the league. The latter was literally not even top 5.

LeBron
Howard
Wade*
Dirk
Durant
Melo*

Were all unarguably better. :biggums:

really? in 2010-11? :roll:
rose at any time in the season was not the best player? :roll: retards. :facepalm

rose led the bulls to the best record in the league with a injured noah and boozer. he averaged 28.5 points and 7 assist against the top 8 teams in the league. Lebron and wade had a losing record against the top 8 teams :roll:
for you to even include melo and wade shows how much you dont know about roses 2011 season.

he won the mvp for a reason, it wasnt a falacy. in 4 years of lebrons prime, he is the only one to outperform lebron enough to take an mvp away from him. Not a falacy, not a forgotten season 3 years later, he won it.

Black and White

02-10-2014, 09:40 PM

really? in 2010-11? :roll:
rose at any time in the season was not the best player? :roll: retards. :facepalm

rose led the bulls to the best record in the league with a injured noah and boozer. he averaged 28.5 points and 7 assist against the top 8 teams in the league. Lebron and wade had a losing record against the top 8 teams :roll:
for you to even include melo and wade shows how much you dont know about roses 2011 season.

There is no case for Rose > LeBron that season and you know it

Dave3

02-10-2014, 09:48 PM

There is no case for Rose > LeBron that season and you know it
There's no case for Rose>Durant or Dirk either. The fact that he thinks Rose might be > LeBron is hilarious. What makes it funnier is that he's calling people who disagree retards:oldlol:

nathanjizzle

02-10-2014, 09:58 PM

There is no case for Rose > LeBron that season and you know it

yea their is a case, its the trophy case rose keeps his mvp trophy in.

nathanjizzle

02-10-2014, 09:59 PM

There's no case for Rose>Durant or Dirk either. The fact that he thinks Rose might be > LeBron is hilarious. What makes it funnier is that he's calling people who disagree retards:oldlol:

rose didnt play better than durant in 2011? retard. how is it possible durant didnt even get voted into the top 5 http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=MVP11

"Derrick Rose has been a beast of the East this year. He has been so good that even LeBron James' teammates (Chris Bosh and Juwan Howard) have said he deserves to be the MVP over LeBron. Actually, Lebron himself has said that D-Rose should be the Most Valuable Player this year.

"I think [it's] Derrick Rose," James said..."What he's done for that team, with all the injuries they have and them being first in the Eastern Conference -- they're playing some really good basketball."

Black and White

02-10-2014, 10:04 PM

yea their is a case, its the trophy case rose keeps his mvp trophy in.

We all know Rose got it because of the Decision, it would have looked bad to give it to Bron, Bron was the clear cut best player in the league, no question, no debate.

nathanjizzle

02-10-2014, 10:08 PM

We all know Rose got it because of the Decision, it would have looked bad to give it to Bron, Bron was the clear cut best player in the league, no question, no debate.

rightt...it was because of the decision :roll: not because lebron deferred to wade, not because lebron passed to haslem on game winning shots, not because lebron failed to lead his team in the 4th qaurter. not because he allowed his team to accumulate a losing streak and become the laughing stock of the nba, not because the heat didnt have a winning record against elite teams that season.

yea it was the decision :roll:

i qoute this from lebron himself that season saying to his teammates "im not going to keep failing you guys in the 4th quarter" even after he said that he kept failing.

Black and White

02-10-2014, 10:10 PM

rightt...it was because of the decision :roll: not because lebron deferred to wade, not because lebron passed to haslem on game winning shots, not because lebron failed to lead his team and letting them accumulate a losing streak, not because the heat didnt have a winning record against elite teams that season.

yea it was the decision :roll:

So LeBron didn't take a massive PR hit?

Dave3

02-10-2014, 10:14 PM

rose didnt play better than durant in 2011? retard. how is it possible durant didnt even get voted into the top 5 http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=MVP11

"Derrick Rose has been a beast of the East this year. He has been so good that even LeBron James' teammates (Chris Bosh and Juwan Howard) have said he deserves to be the MVP over LeBron. Actually, Lebron himself has said that D-Rose should be the Most Valuable Player this year.

"I think [it's] Derrick Rose," James said..."What he's done for that team, with all the injuries they have and them being first in the Eastern Conference -- they're playing some really good basketball."
Your whole argument is based on the false equivalency that the MVP is the best player, when that's not at all the case. Rose that year was the most deserving of MVP, but he wasn't a top 3 player in the league. LeBron Durant and Dirk were all definitely better, and Dwight had a decent argument. Everyone in this thread is laughing at you, but I'm the retard here...:rolleyes:

nathanjizzle

02-10-2014, 10:18 PM

Your whole argument is based on the false equivalency that the MVP is the best player, when that's not at all the case. Rose that year was the most deserving of MVP, but he wasn't a top 3 player in the league. LeBron Durant and Dirk were all definitely better, and Dwight had a decent argument. Everyone in this thread is laughing at you, but I'm the retard here...:rolleyes:

im not basing my "whole" arguement based on the mvp award. im proving you wrong by you saying durant was better than rose, and he didnt even show up in top 5 voting, how would that be possible if he performed better than rose that year?:lol

rose was considered a top 3 player in the league that year. you just forgot.

red1

02-10-2014, 10:23 PM

nathanjizzle just stop

Dave3

02-10-2014, 10:24 PM

im not basing my "whole" arguement based on the mvp award. im proving you wrong by you saying durant was better than rose, and he didnt even show up in top 5 voting, how would that be possible if he performed better than rose that year?:lol

rose was considered a top 3 player in the league that year. you just forgot.
You are basing your whole argument on it because it's the only point you're bringing up.

And MVP is based on context and situation a lot more than it is on how good a player is. Hell, Dirk was behind both Durant and Rose that year, and yet he was still better than both of them, so there goes that MVP standings argument.

I'm one of the few people on here that really thinks Rose earned it that year, and I argued for him the whole year on these forums. I haven't forgotten anything, I just watched objectively, which you seem to have trouble doing, considering you're entertaining the thought that Rose was better than LeBron that year.

hitmanyr2k

02-10-2014, 10:33 PM

You are basing your whole argument on it because it's the only point you're bringing up.

And MVP is based on context and situation a lot more than it is on how good a player is. Hell, Dirk was behind both Durant and Rose that year, and yet he was still better than both of them, so there goes that MVP standings argument.

I'm one of the few people on here that really thinks Rose earned it that year, and I argued for him the whole year on these forums. I haven't forgotten anything, I just watched objectively, which you seem to have trouble doing, considering you're entertaining the thought that Rose was better than LeBron that year.

How was Dirk better exactly? He wasn't exactly setting the league on fire, wasn't playing any kind of all-around game, and wasn't even an average defensive player. Dirk was as one dimensional as you could get. He had a great playoff run but what was his case for being better than Rose or Durant all year long that season?

nathanjizzle

02-10-2014, 10:34 PM

You are basing your whole argument on it because it's the only point you're bringing up.

And MVP is based on context and situation a lot more than it is on how good a player is. Hell, Dirk was behind both Durant and Rose that year, and yet he was still better than both of them, so there goes that MVP standings argument.

I'm one of the few people on here that really thinks Rose earned it that year, and I argued for him the whole year on these forums. I haven't forgotten anything, I just watched objectively, which you seem to have trouble doing, considering you're entertaining the thought that Rose was better than LeBron that year.

do you think rose performed better than lebron that year? was he more of a factor in bulls winning than lebron was to the heat?

Dave3

02-10-2014, 10:41 PM

do you think rose performed better than lebron that year? was he more of a factor in bulls winning than lebron was to the heat?
If I thought Rose performed better than LeBron that year, I'd consider him a better player that year, but he definitely wasn't. He was however more valuable yes, because he was carrying a huge offensive load in Chicago compared tot he load LeBron was expected to carry in Miami. Value and better player are different. Value depends on context, whereas better player is absolute.

How was Dirk better exactly? He wasn't exactly setting the league on fire, wasn't playing any kind of all-around game, and wasn't even an average defensive player. Dirk was as one dimensional as you could get. He had a great playoff run but what was his case for being better than Rose or Durant all year long that season?
Dirk carried a huge load the entire season, and then stepped up even more in the playoffs. He had the most efficient year of his career (52/39/89) and was very clutch for them throughout the year (off the top of my head I remember a game winner against Milwuakee early in the season.) He had a top 5 season in the league, and what he did in the playoffs put him over the top. That year it was very hard to rank the top players to the point where threads on here had some people thinking Dirk was the absolute best player that year.

NumberSix

02-10-2014, 10:44 PM

do you think rose performed better than lebron that year?
No.

was he more of a factor in bulls winning than lebron was to the heat?
No.

SamuraiSWISH

02-10-2014, 10:51 PM

do you think rose performed better than lebron that year?
No, individually he wasn't better than Wade either.

was he more a factor in the bulls winning than lebron was to the heat?
Yes, obviously. He lead a team with way less talent to more wins, while missing Noah, and Deng for large chunks of the season.

Are we then saying 2011 Deng > 2011 Wade (who produced near the same as LeBron), and 2011 Bosh?

Didn't think so. Rose's offensive production, lone creating ability, and take over ability pulled out many wins for Chicago that season that would've been losses.

That team had no business winning over 60 games. Much like the 2009, and 2010 Cavs, the team was predicated on defense, and rebounding. With one lone superstar shouldering the load on offense carrying them to wins.

Which is also why they could be easily exploited v.s. elite teams in a seven game series in the playoffs when D-Rose didn't have a legit second option.

NumberSix

02-10-2014, 11:12 PM

No, individually he wasn't better than Wade either.

Yes, obviously. He lead a team with way less talent to more wins, while missing Noah, and Deng for large chunks of the season.
To put it simply, remove LeBron and Rose from their teams in 2011. Who win a 7 game series between Miami and Chicago?

The simple fact is, the statistical difference between the Bulls with Rose and the Bulls without Rose was marginal.

ripthekik

02-11-2014, 12:03 AM

Yea Kd is the best player right now. Winning in the playoffs is just a formality. He already is the best player, deal with it.

SamuraiSWISH

02-11-2014, 12:22 AM

To put it simply, remove LeBron and Rose from their teams in 2011. Who win a 7 game series between Miami and Chicago?
Miami, easily.

NumberSix

02-11-2014, 12:38 AM

Miami, easily.
Yeah, of course. :rolleyes:

Mike Bibby, Joel Anthony, Dampier, McGloire, Eddie House, Juwan, Big Z and James Jones woulda been puttin' in dat work.

:roll:

People seriously forget how hilariously garbage the roster was outside of LeBron/Wade/Bosh.

KendrickPerkins

02-11-2014, 12:38 AM

McGloire :oldlol:

Dude, there were like 3 all-stars in that supporting cast. :facepalm

BlazerRed

02-11-2014, 01:01 AM

Yes. Of course he us. He's playing the best basketball this season. Carrying a team to second best overall record without a second option and having one of the greatest seasons in history.

Simple Jack

02-11-2014, 02:15 AM

If, at the end of the season, Durant fails to win a ring with his team healthy (i.e. Westbrook is back), then it would be pretty hard to call him the clear-cut best on the planet.

As of right now, of course he is. His stats are murdering everyone else's, and his team has the second best record in the league without a legit second option.

That doesn't make sense. What he does in June doesn't change what he's doing right now. That's not to say I think he's the best in the league, but this irrational way of not being able to judge a players ability in the present because of some potential future event is silly. I mean it can literally come down to game 7 in the finals with a shot made by a teammate that gets him a ring; is he somehow a better player after the buzzer sounds that game, than he was prior to it starting because something out of his hands was the immediate reason his team wins the chip? Of course not.

Durant is who he is right now because of what he's doing right now, not because of what he MAY or MAY NOT do in a few months down the road.

bizil

02-11-2014, 03:44 AM

Durant if anything is the premier alpha dog scorer in the world. Bron and Melo are right up there of course. And are capable of the same numbers. But Durant is the man in that regard. Now the best player in the world is still Lebron. Durant's all around game has grown big time and is closing the gap some. But Bron is pure floor general whose basically a mix of Magic, Big O, Pippen, and Dr. J rolled into Karl Malone's body.

What made MJ and Kobe standout is the fact that they were the premier alpha dog scorer AND the premier all around player in one. Right now in the L, its split up between Bron being the best at the total game and KD the best at scoring. But I gotta say KD's all around game evolution is eyepopping. The next step is to improve on D. But there is gonna be a day where KD is gonna be the best player in the world. Just like when Bron was chasing Kobe, its gonna be the same with KD and Bron.

INDI

02-11-2014, 07:29 AM

+1 for we have to wait a bit longer before proclaiming him king.

Playing the best atm is a bit different from being the consensus best, but it's pretty much guaranteed he'll be the consensus best pretty damn soon. For now it's still lebron.

What makes it different this time is that Durant and Lebron have similar roles for their teams. None of the past undisputed greats got outplayed by a player with a similar role.

what shooting guard was better than Jordan?

What small forward was better than bird?

What point guard was better than magic?

Its understandable when a great loses the mvp to someone that has a total different role on their team. This is the first that I know of of a top 10 player who is the undisputed best player in the league, look inferior to another player who plays the same position and has a similar role.

Most importantly while still in his prime