MVP or ring as second option?

[moe94]

Which is more prestigious?

No Finals MVP, but you are unquestionably the second best player on the team.

MVP is MVP.

[JohnFreeman]

MVP

[SamuraiSWISH]

If I'm a "second option" putting up 29 / 5 / 5 or 25 / 5 / 5 and playing elite defense, carrying the team in road games or showing up big in the clutch? I'm taking the championship to be honest. Point of the game is to win. It's a team game ... right?

[DonDadda59]

MVP no doubt.

[moe94]

If I'm a "second option" putting up 29 / 5 / 5 or 25 / 5 / 5 and playing elite defense, carrying the team in road games or showing up big in the clutch? I'm taking the championship to be honest. Point of the game is to win. It's a team game ... right?

MVP is the single greatest individual accolade in the sport doe

[Smook A.]

MVP most definitely

[SamuraiSWISH]

MVP is the single greatest individual accolade in the sport doe
Yea but look at Charles Barkley. He's an MVP, but no one considers him a winner. Same goes for Steve Nash, or Karl Malone. I want the hardware.

Listen you asked the question, then you're telling me I'm wrong?! WTF ...

I want to know what it feels like to have a bond with 11 other guys who all worked hard for the same goal ... overcame obstacles together, and achieved.

[rhowen4]

we can say in general it's MVP and leave it at that

[moe94]

Yea but look at Charles Barkley. He's an MVP, but no one considers him a winner. Same goes for Steve Nash, or Karl Malone. I want the hardware.

Listen you asked the question, then you're telling me I'm wrong?! WTF ...

I want to know what it feels like to have a bond with 11 other guys who all worked hard for the same goal ... overcame obstacles together, and achieved.

Barkley and Malone > Pippen :coleman:

I'm not saying you are wrong, dude. I actually like your rationalization.

[DonDadda59]

Yea but look at Charles Barkley. He's an MVP, but no one considers him a winner. Same goes for Steve Nash, or Karl Malone. I want the hardware.


All of those guys are ranked higher all time than Scottie Pippen who was a great player himself, won 6 championships, but was also the clear cut #2 on his squad. Nash being the only possible exception.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Barkley and Malone > Pippen :coleman:

I'm not saying you are wrong, dude. I actually like your rationalization.
Listen, in some cases MVP's can be argued against in retrospect. See: 2011, 2007, 2006, 2005, 1997, 1993, and so forth ...

You know what you can't argue against?

When a team wins a championship. They did it. 4 best of sevens prove the cream ALWAYS rises to the top. If I'm the "second option" as a great player, to another great player while winning a championship? Which is the entire point of the sport. I'm taking it.

I felt like this thread was a not so veiled Kobe's 5 rings v.s. LeBron's 4 MVPs kind of deal. So if I'm the second option performing like Kobe in 2001, and 2002? I'm basically a first option caliber talent winning multiple championships.

[oarabbus]

MVP is the single greatest individual accolade in the sport doe

How about FMVP

[moe94]

How about FMVP

Look at the list of FMVP winners and then look at MVPs and tell me which list is better.

Being hot for a season > being hot for a series

[joeysms55]

MVP usually. But if its Lebron as the MVP, ISH will say ring as second option

[SamuraiSWISH]

It depends on what you're considering "second option" performance for a championship?

If it's Kobe 2000, 2001, 2002, and Wade 2012, 2013, level of importance as second option ... I go with the satisfaction of a championship ring.

That means you have 1st option abilities, but you're a second option on a championship team.

If it's anything else second option wise, like say Pau Gasol, or Scottie Pippen where you're clearly a BETA? Then I definitely go MVP.

[TheMarkMadsen]

A "second option" isn't taking more shots than anybody else on the team during the regular season and playoffs while winning a title 2 years in a row :rolleyes:

that's a "1b"

1Be

[DonDadda59]

A "second option" isn't taking more shots than anybody else on the team during the regular season and playoffs while winning a title :rolleyes:

that's a "1b"

1Be

Unless he's not the primary focus of the defense, facing constant double and triple teams and his real # of shot attempts don't show in the stats because he is constantly fouled as it is the only way to even remotely slow him down.

That's MDE.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Unless he's not the primary focus of the defense, facing constant double and triple teams and his real # of shot attempts don't show in the stats because he is constantly fouled as it is the only way to even remotely slow him down.

That's MDE.
LOL why do you hate Kobe so much? The way you talk about him, you'd think he's Jamal Crawford, or J.R. Smith or something. Come on ... what's the deal? Are you Kate's brother or ex-b/f or something?

[Legends66NBA7]

MVP, but I can see why most would rather have the ring.

[pauk]

MVP, by far.

[AboutBuckets]

MVP is the single greatest individual accolade in the sport doe

Many (if not most) would put FMVP above regular season MVP

[DonDadda59]

LOL why do you hate Kobe so much? The way you talk about him, you'd think he's Jamal Crawford, or J.R. Smith or something. Come on ... what's the deal? Are you Kate's brother or ex-b/f or something?

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/109/251/tigerwoods.jpg

[DonDadda59]

Many (if not most) would put FMVP above regular season MVP

So Chauncey Billups in 2004>Charles Barkley in 1993? :confusedshrug:

[moe94]

Many (if not most) would put FMVP above regular season MVP

:rolleyes:

Couldn't care less and is that even true?

Rose is considered to be the worst winner of the MVP.

Look at who won FMVP and get back to me.

[chazzy]

Depends on level of play. It's usually MVP. But I'd rather have Kobe's 01 than Iversons for example

[Mr. Jabbar]

It depends, common sense and eye test can put one over the other on certain ocasions, MVP s are sometimes a joke and so are ring 2nd options ala gasol..

Common sense & eye test guys, they are your friends

[TheMarkMadsen]

Unless he's not the primary focus of the defense, facing constant double and triple teams and his real # of shot attempts don't show in the stats because he is constantly fouled as it is the only way to even remotely slow him down.

That's MDE.


MDE was outscored by his teammate on the way to the finals during an undefeated 12 games..

Kobe also led the entire playoffs in 4th quarter scoring in 01 & 02..

1be

[moe94]

It depends, common sense and eye test can put one over the other on certain ocasions, MVP s are sometimes a joke and so are ring 2nd options ala gasol..

Common sense & eye test guys, they are your friends

Gasol's rings are a joke? Really, Jabbar? Really? :coleman:

One could argu....just stop!

[midatlantic09]

I'd take an MVP award over a ring every day of the week.

NBA MVP = possibly the best basketball player in the entire world

NBA ring as a second option = team award and all the pieces fit together nicely with me being the second best player on the team.

[SamuraiSWISH]

One could argu....just stop!
Stop. No they couldn't. Gasol was the best player in round 1 for the Lakers in 2010. That's it.

They weren't winning shit though until Kobe decided to lock up Westbrook who was killing them. Kobe was the best player on out through the rest of the playoffs.

Gasol carried the Lakers production for 1 round in the three years they went to the Finals. The rest Kobe was pretty obviously their best player. In some of the series Gasol went completely MIA, hanging Kobe out to dry. See Gasoft on a milk carton in 2008 Finals, 2010 Finals, and 2011 WCSF.

[DonDadda59]

MDE wouldn't have been outscored by his teammate on the way to the finals during an undefeated 12 games..

Kobe also led the entire playoffs in 4th quarter scoring in 01 & 02..

1be

Bro. I watched every single game of those playoffs. No one was calling Bean '1b' back then. That's just some stan revisionist history bullshit I've frankly never seen anywhere but here :lol

Shaq was clearly the man not only on the Lakers but in the whole damn NBA. When doubling and sometimes tripling you doesn't work and teams resort to fouling you every time down the court to try to slow you down and you still record 40/20 games... there is no equal.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

MDE was outscored by his teammate on the way to the finals during an undefeated 12 games..

Kobe also led the entire playoffs in 4th quarter scoring in 01 & 02..

1be

Not "1B". Shaq simply impacted the game more with his rebounding and defense. I know, all you Kobe dick suckers only care about offense, but there's actually two sides of the ball. Crazy right?

[kennethgriffin]

in the end.. its about number of rings by an mvp winner


moses malone has 3 mvps and 1 title

hes never been ranked ahead of shaq/kobe/duncan who all have less mvps and more titles


one without the other will never get you in the top 10 all time

but a guy with 5-6 rings and 1-2 mvps will always be ranked ahead of a guy with 1-2 rings and 5-6 mvps



if you could choose which one you'd wanna win first.. its mvp... only because its out of your hands on winning it.. since you dont actually win it. its given to you

only a championship is possible to attain... nobody can set out to win mvp.. there is no criteria..

so its like an academy award. you just gotta hope you arnt hated by the jewish comunity that runs the academy ( i.e. the sports writers )

after that 1 mvp that gets you into the circle of trust. then its all about titles..

[TheMarkMadsen]

Bro. I watched every single game of those playoffs. No one was calling Bean '1b' back then. That's just some stan revisionist history bullshit I've frankly never seen anywhere but here :lol

Shaq was clearly the man not only on the Lakers but in the whole damn NBA. When doubling and sometimes tripling you doesn't work and teams resort to fouling you every time down the court to try to slow you down and you still record 40/20 games... there is no equal.


now you're just lying.

Bill Walton 2002 NBA playoffs


They (Lakers) have the 2 best and most dominating players in Shaquille O' Neal & Kobe Bryant, Shaqs numbers are down due to injury but he's doing what's necessary, Kobe has become the most skilled player in the league since the days of Michael Jordan, he continues to amaze us on a day by day basis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UwucT9Vnsk

[TheMarkMadsen]

2001 playoffs


Over the first 2 games of this series (2001 WCF) Kobe Bryant has been spectacular, he's been Michael Jordan like, certainly in game 1, as for Shaquille O' Neal the Spurs did a nice job holding him in check

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyfR2pDOt3k

[DonDadda59]

Bill Walton? Word?

Well that changes everything. My memory of actual events is now fuzzy. Blame the psychedelics.

Well done. 1Be FTW... but not the finals MVP doe. :applause:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Bill Walton? Word?

Well that changes everything. My memory of actual events is now fuzzy. Blame the psychedelics.

Well done. 1Be FTW... but not the finals MVP doe. :applause:


:cheers:

Shaq dominated those finals and deserved his FMVP's

[Illuminati]

In terms of all-time greats, MVP by far.

[Trollsmasher]

Durant may accomplish both this year:rockon:

[JohnFreeman]

If you win a ring without FMVP, you are a roleplayer..

[AintNoSunshine]

It depends on what you're considering "second option" performance for a championship?

If it's Kobe 2000, 2001, 2002, and Wade 2012, 2013, level of importance as second option ... I go with the satisfaction of a championship ring.

That means you have 1st option abilities, but you're a second option on a championship team.

If it's anything else second option wise, like say Pau Gasol, or Scottie Pippen where you're clearly a BETA? Then I definitely go MVP.


Pretty much this, it also matters the fact whether you already have rings or not.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Pretty much this, it also matters the fact whether you already have rings or not.
:cheers:

[houston]

second option of course.

[K Xerxes]

Well, I'd rather have Kobe's 01 ring than Nash's MVP(s) or Roses' MVP.

I'd also rather have any of Jordan's/Lebron's/Kareem's etc MVPs over Kobe 00 ring.

To use two examples.

[Anfernee]

If you win a ring without FMVP, you are a roleplayer..

Would that go for Garnett in 2008?

[JohnFreeman]

Would that go for Garnett in 2008?
Yep

[knicksman]

only LeBron stans would chose MVPs aka betas or loser mentality:lol

[JohnFreeman]

only LeBron stans would chose MVPs aka betas or loser mentality:lol
Knicks are the Beta franchise

[knicksman]

Knicks are the Beta franchise


:biggums:

[chazzy]

If you win a ring without FMVP, you are a roleplayer..
:wtf:

[JohnFreeman]

:biggums:
I am kidding.

[knicksman]

I am kidding.


:biggums:

:lol

[JohnFreeman]

:biggums:

:lol
:cheers:

[Lebron23]

MVP = automatic hall of famer

[navy]

MVP = automatic hall of famer
Derrick Rose

[ArbitraryWater]

MVP easy... Samurai talking a bit outta his ass :lol

[Bush4Ever]

Every MVP is in the HOF.

Is every guy who won a ring as a second option?

[ImKobe]

If you're winning rings as a top 5/top 10 player in the league, they are much valuable than MVPs. Players would rather win rings as a 2nd/3rd whatever option than win an MVP in most cases, of course this does not apply to superstars.

I'm pretty sure Rose and AI would trade their MVP for a championship. I'm sure Malone and Barkley would rather have a championship than a Finals MVP to their names.

[All Net]

Derrick Rose
He will make it..

[navy]

He will make it..

He wont. :coleman:

[All Net]

He wont. :coleman:
He will, all guys who won MVP's get in.

[JohnFreeman]

He will, all guys who won MVP's get in.
Wonder when Iverson and Shaq are getting elected

[navy]

He will, all guys who won MVP's get in.
Did any have unfulfilling careers like DRose will?

[JebronLames]

It depends on what you're considering "second option" performance for a championship?

If it's Kobe 2000, 2001, 2002, and Wade 2012, 2013, level of importance as second option ... I go with the satisfaction of a championship ring.

That means you have 1st option abilities, but you're a second option on a championship team.

If it's anything else second option wise, like say Pau Gasol, or Scottie Pippen where you're clearly a BETA? Then I definitely go MVP.
Lost credibility when you included wade. Then goes downhill from there.

[ArbitraryWater]

If you're winning rings as a top 5/top 10 player in the league, they are much valuable than MVPs. Players would rather win rings as a 2nd/3rd whatever option than win an MVP in most cases, of course this does not apply to superstars.

I'm pretty sure Rose and AI would trade their MVP for a championship. I'm sure Malone and Barkley would rather have a championship than a Finals MVP to their names.

Again Kobe fans, this isn't about what players would rather win, or would "trade". Everybody would prefer a title, it's a TEAM GAME, its the HIGHEST GOAL.

[97 bulls]

Some of you guys are just insane. So you'd prefer to be the Captain of a sunk ship as opposed to the commader of a vessel that wins the war and makes it back home.

And then. When are you gonna realize. MVPs are awarded to the best player on the best team. Not necessarily the best player in the league. MVPs are in essence team awards

[Mass Debator]

MVPs and no rings ever?

I'd take the second option championship if was as good as Pippen, Wade, Westbrook, etc.

Already having a ring?

I'll take the MVP.

[kshutts1]

More prestigious? Obviously it's MVP.

Most desired? Probably the ring as a second option, but that one's most certainly not a landslide.

[AlphaWolf24]

More prestigious? Obviously it's MVP.

Most desired? Probably the ring as a second option, but that one's most certainly not a landslide.


Quick! How many MVP's did Karl Malone win?...or Barkley?...or Dr.J?....Willis Reed?...



- do we remember these guys for their MVP's????


There is a reason Lebron James left a 65 win team that had the best record in the NBA......to win Championships!!!!!

He went Ring Chasing with the most stacked team in NBA History to win titles....He knew no one cared about a meaningless reg season award.:lol

[NumberSix]

Looks like Durant chose MVP.

[PsychoBe]

Some of you guys are just insane. So you'd prefer to be the Captain of a sunk ship as opposed to the commader of a vessel that wins the war and makes it back home.

And then. When are you gonna realize. MVPs are awarded to the best player on the best team. Not necessarily the best player in the league. MVPs are in essence team awards

lebron james 2009-2010 mvp speech:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPBQJMbLX9E
^"lebron james can't do it by himself." - lebron james

an mvp needs a solid team to make him look like an mvp and if i was a roleplayer i would be proud of the hard-work i put in to allow my teammate to be put in position to win the mvp trophy because i know that i contributed to him winning it about as much as he did.

[kshutts1]

Quick! How many MVP's did Karl Malone win?...or Barkley?...or Dr.J?....Willis Reed?...



- do we remember these guys for their MVP's????


There is a reason Lebron James left a 65 win team that had the best record in the NBA......to win Championships!!!!!

He went Ring Chasing with the most stacked team in NBA History to win titles....He knew no one cared about a meaningless reg season award.:lol

...Hence my saying rings were more sought after?

But people do remember Malone and Barkley for winning MVP. That's a huge reason they're ranked as highly as they are by most.

[Solefade]

lebron james 2009-2010 mvp speech:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPBQJMbLX9E
^"lebron james can't do it by himself." - lebron james

an mvp needs a solid team to make him look like an mvp and if i was a roleplayer i would be proud of the hard-work i put in to allow my teammate to be put in position to win the mvp trophy because i know that i contributed to him winning it about as much as he did.


:facepalm

[Mass Debator]

This is like saying Rip/Rasheed or Barkley/Malone?

I'm sure they all want to be in each other's shoes but one group will be remembered more and probably enjoyed their tenure in the league more as well.

[AlphaWolf24]

...Hence my saying rings were more sought after?

But people do remember Malone and Barkley for winning MVP. That's a huge reason they're ranked as highly as they are by most.


No real basketball fans remember Charles Barkley or Malone or Willis reed because they won MVP awards....

They remember Charles Barkley for his style of play, his passion/his ability to have a nose for the ball and dominate the paint.

Malone for his midrange game and scoring...his physicality inside.

Reed his post game and defensive brilliance...his Finals Heart!!!!


MVP's or not...doesn't change anything ( coincidentally....Both Malone and Barkley went Ring Chasing just like Lebron....at least they had enough Pride to wait until they were old Lions....)

[kshutts1]

This is like saying Rip/Rasheed or Barkley/Malone?

I'm sure they all want to be in each other's shoes but one group will be remembered more and probably enjoyed their tenure in the league more as well.
I see it more as a Pippen vs Malone/Barkley sort of thing.

Just the players you mentioned, there is a very clear, very huge, talent discrepancy. But I, and maybe some others, rate Pippen and Malone/Barkley similarly. I do have Malone and Barkley in a higher tier (by 1) but they are similar rankings. Rip and Sheed are too far down to even warrant a tier.

[funnystuff]

It depends, common sense and eye test can put one over the other on certain ocasions, MVP s are sometimes a joke and so are ring 2nd options ala gasol..

Common sense & eye test guys, they are your friends
Its funny because you can make a good case saying Pau deserved the FMVP in 2010. But Shaq was the clear cut FMVP all three of those years.


I cant imagine the stats someone like Melo/Bron/KD would put up if they had a big man drawing double and triple teams every play.

[Mass Debator]

No real basketball fans remember Charles Barkley or Malone or Willis reed because they won MVP awards....

They remember Charles Barkley for his style of play, his passion/his ability to have a nose for the ball and dominate the paint.

Malone for his midrange game and scoring...his physicality inside.

Reed his post game and defensive brilliance...his Finals Heart!!!!


MVP's or not...doesn't change anything ( coincidentally....Both Malone and Barkley went Ring Chasing just like Lebron....at least they had enough Pride to wait until they were old Lions....)
The dominance and styles you mentioned are basically why they won MVP...
Why just be satisfied with the MVP? Of course they'll want a ring also...

I'm 100000% sure that second option champions would be happier if they got an MVP too...

[Mass Debator]

I see it more as a Pippen vs Malone/Barkley sort of thing.

Just the players you mentioned, there is a very clear, very huge, talent discrepancy. But I, and maybe some others, rate Pippen and Malone/Barkley similarly. I do have Malone and Barkley in a higher tier (by 1) but they are similar rankings. Rip and Sheed are too far down to even warrant a tier.
According to the original post, you're having too much discrepancy. It's any second options which could be Pau Gasol, Pierce/Allen, Tony Parker (even though he said no FMVPs) etc vs Steve Nash, Malone, Barkley, etc.

I think the respect of an MVP is usually way higher than a second option winner.

[kshutts1]

According to the original post, you're having too much discrepancy. It's any second options which could be Pau Gasol, Pierce/Allen, Tony Parker etc vs Steve Nash, Malone, Barkley, etc.

I think the respect of an MVP is usually way higher than a second option winner.
My bad. You're right. Not talking all-time rankings.

[Magic 32]

MVP > Second option

1b > MVP

[AlphaWolf24]

According to the original post, you're having too much discrepancy. It's any second options which could be Pau Gasol, Pierce/Allen, Tony Parker (even though he said no FMVPs) etc vs Steve Nash, Malone, Barkley, etc.

I think the respect of an MVP is usually way higher than a second option winner.


lol....

everyone has Scottie Pippen, Joe Dumars , 11' Lebron James, 12' 13' Wade
and Rick Barry Wade over.... Steve Nash , Rose and Allen Iverson

[Solefade]

basically if you want to be ranked higher on all-time rankings then MVP


rings as the 2nd option doesn't count as much on all time rankings

[97 bulls]

No real basketball fans remember Charles Barkley or Malone or Willis reed because they won MVP awards....

They remember Charles Barkley for his style of play, his passion/his ability to have a nose for the ball and dominate the paint.

Malone for his midrange game and scoring...his physicality inside.

Reed his post game and defensive brilliance...his Finals Heart!!!!


MVP's or not...doesn't change anything( coincidentally....Both Malone and Barkley went Ring Chasing just like Lebron....at least they had enough Pride to wait until they were old Lions....)
Lol

[pegasus]

Well, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that this thread is about Kobe's rings vs. Lebron's MVP awards.

If that's the case...Lebron's MVP's > Kobe's '00 ring
Kobe's '01 and 02' rings >>> Lebron's MVP's

And Kobe's FMVP's in '09 and '10 >>>>>> Lebron's MVP's in the same years

Kobe showed who the best player in the world was in the '09 and '10 NBA Playoffs and Finals, so who cares whom the media chose to award in April?

[97 bulls]

The dominance and styles you mentioned are basically why they won MVP...
Why just be satisfied with the MVP? Of course they'll want a ring also...

I'm 100000% sure that second option champions would be happier if they got an MVP too...
But your Hamilton/Wallace analogy isn't a fair one because there really wasn't a clear cut number one option on that Piston team. What's more, their best player (and this is arguable) was probably Ben Wallace and he wasn't even an option.

[97 bulls]

And make no mistake about it. Most number 2 guys assume that role due to circumstances.
More often than not, they assume that role because there was an established player already there.

I find it hard to believe that if number two guys like James Worthy, Scottie Pippen, Pau Gasol, Kevin Mchale, wouldn't be able to win at least one MVP if they had six to ten years as the best player on a championship caliber team. Magic and Kobe lucked out because they still had a great amount of prime years after their best players (Shaq and Jabaar) aged.

[Mass Debator]

lol....

everyone has Scottie Pippen, Joe Dumars , 11' Lebron James, 12' 13' Wade
and Rick Barry Wade over.... Steve Nash , Rose and Allen Iverson
I said usually. You can go down the list of MVPs with no rings and second option champions with no FMVP/reg-MVP and I'm pretty sure the MVP list holds up better.

The only players with an MVP with no ring are actually the names that have been tossed around in this thread. Nash, Rose, Barkley, Malone, and AI. Those names will be remembered more than, Dumars, Parker, Marion/Terry, Rip/Rasheed, Pau Gasol, Pippen, Drexler, Toney, Maxwell, etc.

See if you were once great...a top 10 player, and still capable in your 30s putting up big numbers, yeah it'll mean a whole lot to win a ring...but if you were a top 10 player in your prime, a ring would be super special, but you'd most likely be the first option which this thread isn't about. Too many variables but I believe in my own opinion, everyone wants the MVP because it showcased you were the best if not top 5 that season on the best team. As kid growing up, we selfishly wanted to be the best ever. An MVP is a taste of that...an MVP + FMVP is just the best you can be in a year.

[eklip]

MVP and it isn't close.

When a player wins the MVP award he is the best player in the league or at least in the top 3.

The second best player on any team usually isn't a top 3 player in the league.

[Magic 32]

The second best player on any team usually isn't a top 3 player in the league.

Usually.

[Bigsmoke]

MVP

[97 bulls]

Well, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that this thread is about Kobe's rings vs. Lebron's MVP awards.

If that's the case...Lebron's MVP's > Kobe's '00 ring
Kobe's '01 and 02' rings >>> Lebron's MVP's

And Kobe's FMVP's in '09 and '10 >>>>>> Lebron's MVP's in the same years

Kobe showed who the best player in the world was in the '09 and '10 NBA Playoffs and Finals, so who cares whom the media chose to award in April?
True. And let's understand another thing. Technically, no one wins and MVP, youre AWARDED IT. Its given to players through vote. Championships are taken, not given.

[AlphaWolf24]

MVP and it isn't close.

When a player wins the MVP award he is the best player in the league or at least in the top 3.

The second best player on any team usually isn't a top 3 player in the league.


Not in the modern era....the "MVP" is the best player on the supposedly " best" teams...

Nash was not a top 3 player...either was Dirk....

[moe94]

You could easily make an argument for Dirk. Stats were there. My eye test says he was there. Don't question me. Stats are on my side and I got eyes, bro.^

This entire thread and the arguments surrounding it have to do with Kobe's 2001/2 rings. That's it! Hilarious.

[97 bulls]

I said usually. You can go down the list of MVPs with no rings and second option champions with no FMVP/reg-MVP and I'm pretty sure the MVP list holds up better.

The only players with an MVP with no ring are actually the names that have been tossed around in this thread. Nash, Rose, Barkley, Malone, and AI. Those names will be remembered more than, Dumars, Parker, Marion/Terry, Rip/Rasheed, Pau Gasol, Pippen, Drexler, Toney, Maxwell, etc.

See if you were once great...a top 10 player, and still capable in your 30s putting up big numbers, yeah it'll mean a whole lot to win a ring...but if you were a top 10 player in your prime, a ring would be super special, but you'd most likely be the first option which this thread isn't about.
Again, youre missing the point of the question. Its MVP vs the Number two guy. Now let's be honest. There's really only two players on your list who's names are still routinely mentioned. Barkley and Pippens. And Barkleys has a lot to do with him being on TNT and sticking his foot in his mouth.

[AlphaWolf24]

You could easily make an argument for Dirk. Stats were there. My eye test says he was there. Don't question me. Stats are on my side and I got eyes, bro.^

This entire thread and the arguments surrounding it have to do with Kobe's 2001/2 rings. That's it! Hilarious.


yup...top 3 player.....won a MVP award he's was so Valuable...


then got merked by Matt Barnes and Capt Jax in the 1rst round...



- but hey at least he won that "MVP":roll: ......dat MVP holds more weight then 11' Title.

[moe94]

Are you even going to argue he was outside the top 3 during his 07 MVP or are you going to be condescending?

[97 bulls]

You could easily make an argument for Dirk. Stats were there. My eye test says he was there. Don't question me. Stats are on my side and I got eyes, bro.^

This entire thread and the arguments surrounding it have to do with Kobe's 2001/2 rings. That's it! Hilarious.
Dirks 07 MVP is exactly my point. Duncan and Kobe were the two best players in the league. Followed by Garnett and probably Wade.

Nowitzki won because his team won 67 games that year.

[kshutts1]

yup...top 3 player.....won a MVP award he's was so Valuable...


then got merked by Matt Barnes and Capt Jax in the 1rst round...



- but hey at least he won that "MVP":roll: ......dat MVP holds more weight then 11' Title.

If Dirk didn't have the title, the MVP would be huge for his career.

If he didn't have the MVP, but title would be great, but I don't see it as being as good.

Both MVP and championship are team awards, but the MVP is considered to be slightly more of an individual accomplishment. So when ranking Dirk the individual, if just one of those was being considered, the MVP would place him higher on the all-time ranks.

[97 bulls]

yup...top 3 player.....won a MVP award he's was so Valuable...


then got merked by Matt Barnes and Capt Jax in the 1rst round...



- but hey at least he won that "MVP":roll: ......dat MVP holds more weight then 11' Title.
Lol

[moe94]

Dirks 07 MVP is exactly my point. Duncan and Kobe were the two best players in the league. Followed by Garnett and probably Wade.

Nowitzki won because his team won 67 games that year.

Your argument is pointless because MVP winners > second option players and it's not even close. How can you sit there and suggest the contrary?

[AlphaWolf24]

Are you even going to argue he was outside the top 3 during his 07 MVP or are you going to be condescending?


Kobe , Wade, Lebron , Duncan , Melo , were all better players then Dirk that year.


am I doin it right :confusedshrug:

[Magic 32]

One of these playoff runs is from a MVP. The other is from a "second option".

http://s8.postimg.org/ry9rycj85/image.png

http://s4.postimg.org/parm5orpp/image.png

[Mass Debator]

Again, youre missing the point of the question. Its MVP vs the Number two guy. Now let's be honest. There's really only two players on your list who's names are still routinely mentioned. Barkley and Pippens. And Barkleys has a lot to do with him being on TNT and sticking his foot in his mouth.
Well, Pippen was a special player and wouldn't be the "unquestionable" number 2 guy on 99% of the teams...except he played with Jordan.

Malone is also remembered by the ring of Jordan and getting beat. And his personality doesn't stand out to get talked about. If 30 years down the road, we mention MVPs, he'll be recalled fairly easy imo. If you were to recall the unquestionable second options of championship teams...it'll be pretty difficult outside of Pippen especially if you aren't born in this era.

I'm looking at #2 vs MVP with no ring as a whole. I broke down the list. My belief is that MVP plays a bigger role in molding the perception of fans of what type of player you were and how well you were respected by the league. A second option outside of Pippen isn't that special. And according to the OP, we're talking about the unquestionable second option with no FMVP so that takes Kareem/Magic out of the picture.

You ask any player if they'd rather be MVP or a second option ring getter and deep down inside, they'd answer MVP but they will publicly answer the politically right way of I just want to win it all.

We get that Scottie Pippen is as great if not greater than many MVPs in history, but that doesn't dismiss the other second option winners.

[AlphaWolf24]

If Dirk didn't have the title, the MVP would be huge for his career.

If he didn't have the MVP, but title would be great, but I don't see it as being as good.

Both MVP and championship are team awards, but the MVP is considered to be slightly more of an individual accomplishment. So when ranking Dirk the individual, if just one of those was being considered, the MVP would place him higher on the all-time ranks.


100% disagree....He won MVP that year because his team had a great record...

in the Post season he got mamba raped by Oakland...he was more remembered by his Post season that year then winning the "MVP" award.



his 11' Title is by far more valuable then if he won 5 MVP awards....

His post season Brilliance vs OKC...his game 5 in the Finals..is more amazing then anything in his career.

[Mass Debator]

100% disagree....He won MVP that year because his team had a great record...

in the Post season he got mamba raped by Oakland...he was more remembered by his Post season that year then winning the "MVP" award.



his 11' Title is by far more valuable then if he won 5 MVP awards....

His post season Brilliance vs OKC...his game 5 in the Finals..is more amazing then anything in his career.
This is so irrelevant to the topic. Dirk won the FMVP as the first option. If he did it as the second option, it wouldn't be that special on his resume.

BTW, that MVP is what people use to rank Dirk ahead of Wade. It's that much valuable I can tell you that...

[AlphaWolf24]

Well, Pippen was a special player and wouldn't be the "unquestionable" number 2 guy on 99% of the teams...except he played with Jordan.

Malone is also remembered by the ring of Jordan and getting beat. And his personality doesn't stand out to get talked about. If 30 years down the road, we mention MVPs, he'll be recalled fairly easy imo. If you were to recall the unquestionable second options of championship teams...it'll be pretty difficult outside of Pippen especially if you aren't born in this era.

I'm looking at #2 vs MVP with no ring as a whole. I broke down the list. My belief is that MVP plays a bigger role in molding the perception of fans of what type of player you were and how well you were respected by the league. A second option outside of Pippen isn't that special. And according to the OP, we're talking about the unquestionable second option with no FMVP so that takes Kareem/Magic out of the picture.

You ask any player if they'd rather be MVP or a second option ring getter and deep down inside, they'd answer MVP but they will publicly answer the politically right way of I just want to win it all.

We get that Scottie Pippen is as great if not greater than many MVPs in history, but that doesn't dismiss the other second option winners.


Pippen will go down in History as the better player with the much better resume then Malone...

Heck he has gone down as the better player....we talk about Pippen alot....hardly ever see anyone talk about Malone.

We talk about Pippen more then Barkley...


You ask any player if they would rather be a main contributor to a championship team or win a regular season MVP award and get merked outta the playoff's.....I guarantee 99% would rather be a main contributor to a Championship.


cough 07' Dirk...Lebron ( left a championship contender to join 2 other superstars)...Nash etc...etc...

[Solefade]

Not in the modern era....the "MVP" is the best player on the supposedly " best" teams...

Nash was not a top 3 player...either was Dirk....


nash was arguably a top 3 player in 05..can't say the same for 06 though...

but when you turn a 29 win team into a 60+ win team the following season and the only addition to the team was yourself, you're definitely a top player that year.

[Mass Debator]

Pippen will go down in History as the better player with the much better resume then Malone...

Heck he has gone down as the better player....we talk about Pippen alot....hardly ever see anyone talk about Malone.

We talk about Pippen more then Barkley...


You ask any player if they would rather be a main contributor to a championship team or win a regular season MVP award and get merked outta the playoff's.....I guarantee 99% would rather be a main contributor to a Championship.


cough 07' Dirk...Lebron ( left a championship contender to join 2 other superstars)...Nash etc...etc...
What about the other 2nd options? Do we talk about them more than Barkley, Malone, AI, etc?

[97 bulls]

Well, Pippen was a special player and wouldn't be the "unquestionable" number 2 guy on 99% of the teams...except he played with Jordan.

Malone is also remembered by the ring of Jordan and getting beat. And his personality doesn't stand out to get talked about. If 30 years down the road, we mention MVPs, he'll be recalled fairly easy imo. If you were to recall the unquestionable second options of championship teams...it'll be pretty difficult outside of Pippen especially if you aren't born in this era.

I'm looking at #2 vs MVP with no ring as a whole. I broke down the list. My belief is that MVP plays a bigger role in molding the perception of fans of what type of player you were and how well you were respected by the league. A second option outside of Pippen isn't that special. And according to the OP, we're talking about the unquestionable second option with no FMVP so that takes Kareem/Magic out of the picture.

You ask any player if they'd rather be MVP or a second option ring getter and deep down inside, they'd answer MVP but they will publicly answer the politically right way of I just want to win it all.

We get that Scottie Pippen is as great if not greater than many MVPs in history, but that doesn't dismiss the other second option winners.
Perhaps we need to establish what the OP is comparing. It seems that many poster equate the term "second option" to mean second best player. Just because a player may be a teams number two scoring option does not automatically make them the second best player.

Jason Terry was the number two option for Dallas in 2011. Tyson Chandler was their second best player.

[IncarceratedBob]

Ask Karl Malone

[Mass Debator]

Perhaps we need to establish what the OP is comparing. It seems that many poster equate the term "second option" to mean second best player. Just because a player may be a teams number two scoring option does not automatically make them the second best player.

Jason Terry was the number two option for Dallas in 2011. Tyson Chandler was their second best player.
Well, I automatically assume that a 2nd option is the option they go-to after the first option goes down. Like if Dirk was to go down, who do they rely on? Chandler was probably their 2nd best player or arguably their 1st most important player, but I believe Terry is who they'll rely on to win the game for them.

And yeah I agree, second best player and second option to me are not the same. OP worded it second option so to me and you, it would be Terry that we should talk about.

[DonDadda59]

Pippen will go down in History as the better player with the much better resume then Malone...



On what planet? :kobe:

[moe94]

On what planet? :kobe:

Dude is always cracking me up. Whether he believes his junk is up for question, but if so, LMFAO.

[funnystuff]

Alpha trying to come off as intelligent like usual but the stan in him is screaming right now.

[Black and White]

This is all opinion based, some people would prefer the MVP and some people would prefer the ring, its totally subjective though, if it was a Wade, Kobe, Pippen, KG, Parker type performance then I am taking the ring, remember the reason players play is to win the title and make money, but in general, winning > everything.

[Stringer Bell]

MVP is more prestigious.

I'd rather have a ring as second option.

Usually, the 2nd option on a championship team is a very good player, sometimes a great one, and some turn out to be HOFers. Some of them won MVPs in other seasons.


Erving
Worthy/Jabbar/Magic
Dumars
Drexler
Pippen
D. Robinson
Kobe
Parker
Shaq
Wade
Gasol

[97 bulls]

This is all opinion based, some people would prefer the MVP and some people would prefer the ring, its totally subjective though, if it was a Wade, Kobe, Pippen, KG, Parker type performance then I am taking the ring, remember the reason players play is to win the title and make money, but in general, winning > everything.
Exactly. Frequenting this site has got me asking the question, since when was a moral victory better than an absolute victory? It's just mind boggling.

[97 bulls]

Well, I automatically assume that a 2nd option is the option they go-to after the first option goes down. Like if Dirk was to go down, who do they rely on? Chandler was probably their 2nd best player or arguably their 1st most important player, but I believe Terry is who they'll rely on to win the game for them.

And yeah I agree, second best player and second option to me are not the same. OP worded it second option so to me and you, it would be Terry that we should talk about.
They're not same, but posters use both terms in the same context.

[Black and White]

Exactly. Frequenting this site has got me asking the question, since when was a moral victory better than an absolute victory? It's just mind boggling.

Most times we compare greats its about the rings won, do we count Kareem as a 2 x champ or a 6 x champ?

[BIZARRO]

It depends on what you're considering "second option" performance for a championship?

If it's Kobe 2000, 2001, 2002, and Wade 2012, 2013, level of importance as second option ... I go with the satisfaction of a championship ring.

That means you have 1st option abilities, but you're a second option on a championship team.

If it's anything else second option wise, like say Pau Gasol, or Scottie Pippen where you're clearly a BETA? Then I definitely go MVP.


Wait, here's the 2000 NBA Finals statline:

Shaq 38.7 ppg, 16.7 rpg 2.3 apg 61.1% fg
Kobe 15.6 ppg, 4.6 rpg 4.2 apg 36.7% fg (Alpha?) :facepalm

Don't tell me you're trying to pass Kobe off as an Alpha that year. Rice, Harper, and Horry's stats were almost as good as well. First option abilities that year? Kobe as a BETA is even a stretch there. Let's stop revising history.

[97 bulls]

Wait, here's the 2000 NBA Finals statline:

Shaq 38.7 ppg, 16.7 rpg 2.3 apg 61.1% fg
Kobe 15.6 ppg, 4.6 rpg 4.2 apg 36.7% fg (Alpha?) :facepalm

Don't tell me you're trying to pass Kobe off as an Alpha that year. Rice, Harper, and Horry's stats were almost as good as well. First option abilities that year? Kobe as a BETA is even a stretch there. Let's stop revising history.
True. And this here is another circumstantial argument. Wasnt Kobe hurt? What about A players situation? Pippen avg 22/9/7 with GOAT defense in 91. His stats are skewed in the second three-peat because he played hurt.

[AlphaWolf24]

On what planet? :kobe:


On the Planet of understanding Basketball...

Pippen was one of the greatest all around players ever....and IMO the greatest all around defender ever.

the only thing Malone has on Pippen is post a post game...


- We already saw Pippen play without MJ in 95'....he was an MVP caliber player and led the Bull's to a great season....he could have done the that Multiple times and won a few titles if he had Malone's Utah teams.

Malone played with arguably the GOAT PG .... Pippen played with the GOAT SG....Pippen is a 6X Champion....Malone won a couple meaningless reg season MVP's.....that's why he left to go hunt Kobe and Vanessa in L.A.....


he chased the real value...Rings.

- Pippen>Malone ..... for real hoop stans.

[moe94]

Malone's career numbers are literally better than Pippen's peak season.

[AlphaWolf24]

Malone's career numbers are literally better than Pippen's peak season.


Put Malone on the Bull's with MJ.....not only do the Bull's struggle ( because Malone stretch defense is no where near Pip's)

But Malone's averages take a serious dive....stats and context:hammerhead:

Pippen was the better all around player/the better champion...Malone was better at scoring from the post.











next

[moe94]

shoulda woulda coulda

Dude had a near 20 year career and it still beats the production Pippen provide in his absolute best as the alpha dog.

Stop with that next shit. What are you doing? I thought you were joking at first but I think you're dead serious now. lol

[97 bulls]

Most times we compare greats its about the rings won, do we count Kareem as a 2 x champ or a 6 x champ?
I vehemently disagree. Some players get full credit for their championships regardless of how well they played or how big of a contribution from them. I never read anyone say Jabaar has two championships as the man. He's just a six time NBA champ. Even if the last one he won wouldn't be considered or shouldn't be considered based on criteria set forth when discussing other NBA players.

It

[97 bulls]

shoulda woulda coulda

Dude had a near 20 year career and it still beats the production Pippen provide in his absolute best as the alpha dog.

Stop with that next shit. What are you doing? I thought you were joking at first but I think you're dead serious now. lol
Typical. Eliminate context when it doesn't fall in line with your agenda. So you basically expected Scottie Pippen to accomplish what took Malone 20 years to do in one year? Wow.

[moe94]

Typical. Eliminate context when it doesn't fall in line with your agenda. So you basically expected Scottie Pippen to accomplish what took Malone 20 years to do in one year? Wow.

He was in his absolute peak. Do you think had he stayed a few more years with Jordan, leading that team, he would evolve into a better player than Malone is?

There is nothing, from what actually happened, that even hints to Pippen having a better legacy than Malone, outside his rings. Do you value rings that much that you can rank Scottie Pippen over Karl Malone? When did Malone get so underrated or Pippen so overrated because whatever it is, I'm not with it.

[Black and White]

I vehemently disagree. Some players get full credit for their championships regardless of how well they played or how big of a contribution from them. I never read anyone say Jabaar has two championships as the man. He's just a six time NBA champ. Even if the last one he won wouldn't be considered or shouldn't be considered based on criteria set forth when discussing other NBA players.

It

Thats my point, I'm agreeing with you, I'm saying according to peoples logic on her Jabbar should only be considered a 2 x champ, which is stupid

[97 bulls]

He was in his absolute peak. Do you think had he stayed a few more years with Jordan, leading that team, he would evolve into a better player than Malone is?

There is nothing, from what actually happened, that even hints to Pippen having a better legacy than Malone, outside his rings. Do you value rings that much that you can rank Scottie Pippen over Karl Malone? When did Malone get so underrated or Pippen so overrated because whatever it is, I'm not with it.
I honestly dont understand the question in bold.

But I will say this. During the two year Jordan hiatus, Pippen finished top 4 in MVP and DPOY voting in 94 and finished second in DPOY voting in 95. And he didn't have another all-time great player playing alongside him. Malone did.

Consider also this. Olajuwan won the MVP in 94. His team won 58 games. Scottie Pippen s Bulls won 55. And Pippen missed 10 in which they went 4-6. What if the Bulls finsih with 58-59 wins? Without Jordan? How could you not feel Pippen would've deserved the MVP? Especially by todays standards

Lets talk value. Olajuwan was the Rockets number one option and defensive anchor. Scottie Pippen was the Bulls number one option, defensive anchor, ran the offense, and routinely defended the oppositions best man. Whos more valuable?

I find it hard to believe that if Jordan hadn't returned and the Bulls seriously built a team around Scottie, that he doesnt win an MVP

[97 bulls]

Thats my point, I'm agreeing with you, I'm saying according to peoples logic on her Jabbar should only be considered a 2 x champ, which is stupid
Touche:cheers:

[Lebron23]

Thats my point, I'm agreeing with you, I'm saying according to peoples logic on her Jabbar should only be considered a 2 x champ, which is stupid


In fairness to Kareem he should have been a 3x NBA Finals MVP. He was clearly the Laker's best player in the 1980 NBA Finals, and in the 1980 NBA Playoffs.

[moe94]

97, bulls, be honest, do you think Pippen's career is greater than Malone's? Would you rank him higher on a list of greatest players?

[sbw19]

If I have zero MVPs and zero rings, I'd rather have ring.
If I have zero rings and an MVP or more, I'd rather have ring.
If I have zero MVPs and a ring or more, I'd rather have MVP.
If I have an MVP or more and a ring or more, I'd rather have another ring.

[97 bulls]

97, bulls, be honest, do you think Pippen's career is greater than Malone's? Would you rank him higher on a list of greatest players?
I honestly really hate ranking players. Because their circumstances are different. I do feel theyre in the same tier. And neither was better than the other. They both dominated the game in their own way.

In my opinion, Karl Malone had one legitimate opportunity to win a title and that was in 98. He failed. But so did Magic, Bird, Jordan etc. The difference is they had multiple opportunities to succeed. Malone didn't. Im not gonna say Pippen is better than Malone due to his winning six championships. He was on the best team of his era. He was supposed to win.

[97 bulls]

If I have zero MVPs and zero rings, I'd rather have ring.
If I have zero rings and an MVP or more, I'd rather have ring.
If I have zero MVPs and a ring or more, I'd rather have MVP.
If I have an MVP or more and a ring or more, I'd rather have another ring.

Best post

[NumberSix]

I honestly really hate ranking players. Because their circumstances are different. I do feel theyre in the same tier. And neither was better than the other. They both dominated the game in their own way.

In my opinion, Karl Malone had one legitimate opportunity to win a title and that was in 98. He failed. But so did Magic, Bird, Jordan etc. The difference is they had multiple opportunities to succeed. Malone didn't. Im not gonna say Pippen is better than Malone due to his winning six championships. He was on the best team of his era. He was supposed to win.
That's why you should do what I do. Don't worry about circumstances. Just judge who you watched and believe are better players.

[jzek]

Ring all the time.

When was the last time you heard a player say his dream was to win the MVP? It's always the dream is to win the championship. You always want to win the last award given because that means it's the most prestigious.

[97 bulls]

That's why you should do what I do. Don't worry about circumstances. Just judge who you watched and believe are better players.
I agree. And I honestly dont feel one was more talented than the other. They both has different styles and both were effective.

[BigMacAttack]

Ring all the time.

When was the last time you heard a player say his dream was to win the MVP? It's always the dream is to win the championship. You always want to win the last award given because that means it's the most prestigious.

This, give me a ring.

I wish we could ask this question to Nash or Chuck though.

MVP may be the greates individual achievement but winning a championship is the greatest nba achievement period.

[Lebron23]

97, bulls, be honest, do you think Pippen's career is greater than Malone's? Would you rank him higher on a list of greatest players?


http://www.troll.me/images/angry-samuel-l-jackson/oh-hell-no.jpg

[Lebron23]

This, give me a ring.

I wish we could ask this question to Nash or Chuck though.

MVP may be the greates individual achievement but winning a championship is the greatest nba achievement period.


That's why Lebron have the best of both worlds. He's a 4x NBA MVP, and 2x Finals MVP, Back to back NBA champion.

[HurricaneKid]

There is one player in the history of the NBA that has won an MVP and been eligible for the HoF that hasn't been enshrined. There have been 500+ NBA champs that aren't in the league.

Its the MVP. By a lot. Even if the voting is absurd.

[DonDadda59]

On the Planet of understanding Basketball...

Pippen was one of the greatest all around players ever....and IMO the greatest all around defender ever.

the only thing Malone has on Pippen is post a post game...


- We already saw Pippen play without MJ in 95'....he was an MVP caliber player and led the Bull's to a great season....he could have done the that Multiple times and won a few titles if he had Malone's Utah teams.

Malone played with arguably the GOAT PG .... Pippen played with the GOAT SG....Pippen is a 6X Champion....Malone won a couple meaningless reg season MVP's.....that's why he left to go hunt Kobe and Vanessa in L.A.....


he chased the real value...Rings.

- Pippen>Malone ..... for real hoop stans.

My dude... Pippen's career numbers are 16/6/5 compared to Malone's 25/10/4.

Pippen is a 7x all star, 3x All NBA first team, 2X All NBA 2nd team, 2X All NBA 3rd team, 7X All NBA first defensive team, 2X All NBA defensive 2nd team.

Malone is 2nd all time in career points, 2X MVP, 14X All star, 11X all NBA first team, 2x All NBA second team, 3x All Defensive 1st team, 1 All Defensive 2nd Team, 1 All NBA 3rd Team, All Rookie 1st Team. He's the all time leader in defensive rebounds, 6th All time in total rebounds, 1st all time in FT made and attempted. Led his team to 2 finals, had the unfortunate luck to run into the GOAT both times.

Pippen is a top 50-100 player all time, Malone top 20-30. Pippen is considered a top 10-15 SF all time, Malone a top 2-3 PF all time.

And you thinking Pippen wins with Malone's lineup is hilarious. Dude couldn't do shit with Hakeem and Barkley and choked hard with that talented Portland squads. Replace rookie Pippen with rookie Malone on the Bulls, they win 10+ championships.

No one with even a minimal knowledge of NBA history would place Scottie Pippen over Karl Malone on an all time list. Phuq outta here with that bullshit.

[Lebron23]

My dude... Pippen's career numbers are 16/6/5 compared to Malone's 25/10/4.

Pippen is a 7x all star, 3x All NBA first team, 2X All NBA 2nd team, 2X All NBA 3rd team, 7X All NBA first defensive team, 2X All NBA defensive 2nd team.

Malone is 2nd all time in career points, 2X MVP, 14X All star, 11X all NBA first team, 2x All NBA second team, 3x All Defensive 1st team, 1 All Defensive 2nd Team, 1 All NBA 3rd Team, All Rookie 1st Team. He's the all time leader in defensive rebounds, 6th All time in total rebounds, 1st all time in FT made and attempted. Led his team to 2 finals, had the unfortunate luck to run into the GOAT both times.

Pippen is a top 50-100 player all time, Malone top 20-30. Pippen is considered a top 10-15 SF all time, Malone a top 2-3 PF all time.

And you thinking Pippen wins with Malone's lineup is hilarious. Dude couldn't do shit with Hakeem and Barkley and choked hard with that talented Portland squads. Replace rookie Pippen with rookie Malone on the Bulls, they win 10+ championships.

No one with even a minimal knowledge of NBA history would place Scottie Pippen over Karl Malone on an all time list. Phuq outta here with that bullshit.


This

No disrespect to Pippen. Malone was just head and shoulders above scottie. and according to his retarded logic Pippen > Kobe because Pippen is a 6x NBA Champion.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Depends on how good of a 2nd option.

MVP may mean more in the long run in that situation, most of the time, but the ultimate goal is always the championship.

[DonDadda59]

This

No disrespect to Pippen. Malone was just head and shoulders above scottie. and according to his retarded logic Pippen > Kobe because Pippen is a 6x NBA Champion.

Exactly. Would love to see Alpha and the rest of the Bean squad explain to me why John Havlicek shouldn't be ranked higher than Bean if we're going by their logic.

8 rangz>6 rangz, right?

So how is Bean in the top 10 but Hondo isn't? :biggums:

[97 bulls]

My dude... Pippen's career numbers are 16/6/5 compared to Malone's 25/10/4.

Pippen is a 7x all star, 3x All NBA first team, 2X All NBA 2nd team, 2X All NBA 3rd team, 7X All NBA first defensive team, 2X All NBA defensive 2nd team.

Malone is 2nd all time in career points, 2X MVP, 14X All star, 11X all NBA first team, 2x All NBA second team, 3x All Defensive 1st team, 1 All Defensive 2nd Team, 1 All NBA 3rd Team, All Rookie 1st Team. He's the all time leader in defensive rebounds, 6th All time in total rebounds, 1st all time in FT made and attempted. Led his team to 2 finals, had the unfortunate luck to run into the GOAT both times.

Pippen is a top 50-100 player all time, Malone top 20-30. Pippen is considered a top 10-15 SF all time, Malone a top 2-3 PF all time.

And you thinking Pippen wins with Malone's lineup is hilarious. Dude couldn't do shit with Hakeem and Barkley and choked hard with that talented Portland squads. Replace rookie Pippen with rookie Malone on the Bulls, they win 10+ championships.

No one with even a minimal knowledge of NBA history would place Scottie Pippen over Karl Malone on an all time list. Phuq outta here with that bullshit.
Lol what did Malone do when he had Prime Shaq and Kobe on his team? And Gary Payton? Try to stick Kobes wife.

Along with the accomplishments you listed for Pippen, he is number one in assists by a forward, I believe hes top five alltime in steals, and hes fifth in win percentage. Hell Im sure Malone would burn those career stats for one of Pippens championships.

[moe94]

So how is Bean in the top 10 but Hondo isn't? :biggums:

Kobe stan mind: too old unless they're Wilt or Russell and even then, they're pushing it!

[Lebron23]

Exactly. Would love to see Alpha and the rest of the Bean squad explain to me why John Havlicek shouldn't be ranked higher than Bean if we're going by their logic.

8 rangz>6 rangz, right?

So how is Bean in the top 10 but Hondo isn't? :biggums:


:oldlol: :oldlol:

[kennethgriffin]

whos better


jerry west or steve nash
























































/thread

[DonDadda59]

Lol what did Malone do when he had Prime Shaq and Kobe on his team? And Gary Payton? Try to stick Kobes wife.

Dude was 40 and his body fell apart. Still made the finals doe. 32 year old Pip went Lebron decision style a couple of months after Jordan dragged him to another 'ship and he teamed up with the Dream and Sir Charles, in case you forgot:

http://media.charged.fm/media/file_51def88069b9e.jpg

How'd that go?

Then he joined a stacked Portland team (Sheed, Steve Smith, Stoudamire, Sabonis, Bonzi, Grant, etc).

How'd that go?


Along with the accomplishments you listed for Pippen, he is number one in assists by a forward, I believe hes top five alltime in steals, and hes fifth in win percentage. Hell Im sure Malone would burn those career stats for one of Pippens championships.

Yeah, those are nice accomplishments and all but Malone's career shits on Pippen's and it's not really close. No one with basic common sense would argue that. Can't believe people here are actually trying.

[97 bulls]

Dude was 40 and his body fell apart. Still made the finals doe. 32 year old Pip went Lebron decision style a couple of months after Jordan dragged him to another 'ship and he teamed up with the Dream and Sir Charles, in case you forgot:

http://media.charged.fm/media/file_51def88069b9e.jpg

How'd that go?

Then he joined a stacked Portland team (Sheed, Steve Smith, Stoudamire, Sabonis, Bonzi, Grant, etc).

How'd that go?



Yeah, those are nice accomplishments and all but Malone's career shits on Pippen's and it's not really close. No one with basic common sense would argue that. Can't believe people here are actually trying.
Lol, why am I even arguing this? Pippen has six championships. Malone has ZERO.

Let's compare Scottie Pippen to Karl Malone circa 1994.

[DonDadda59]

Let's compare Scottie Pippen to Karl Malone circa 1994.

Cool. Tell me all you know about Pippen quitting on his team in the final seconds of a key playoff game. Then tell me whether that hurts or helps his legacy.

Then, if you have the time, talk about Karl putting up 25/12/4 and leading his team to the WCF.

Thanks. :cheers:

[97 bulls]

Cool. Tell me all you know about Pippen quitting on his team in the final seconds of a key playoff game. Then tell me whether that hurts or helps his legacy.

Then, if you have the time, talk about Karl putting up 25/12/4 and leading his team to the WCF.

Thanks. :cheers:
Id rather talk about their whole season. Both were basically the same age. Malone had the better team. But Pippens Bulls had the better record. Both made the All-Star game, but Pippen won MVP, both made the All-NBA first team, Pippen got the most votes. Both placed top ten in the MVP race, Pippen finished ahead ranking third to Malones seventh. Pippen also got the most votes for the All-Defense first team Malone didnt even make it. Pippen finished fourth the the DPOY award voting. Malone again didn't place.

Scottie Pippens 1994 season shits on Malones 94 season so bad that he could've decided NOT to play in the playoffs and still have a much better season than Malones.

[avonbarksdale]

essentially 2 of kobes rings with shaq vs nash's two mvps


give me the 2 rings, cmon

[DonDadda59]

Id rather talk about their whole season. Both were basically the same age. Malone had the better team. But Pippens Bulls had the better record. Both made the All-Star game, but Pippen won MVP, both made the All-NBA first team, Pippen got the most votes. Both placed top ten in the MVP race, Pippen finished ahead ranking third to Malones seventh. Pippen also got the most votes for the All-Defense first team Malone didnt even make it. Pippen finished fourth the the DPOY award voting. Malone again didn't place.

Scottie Pippens 1994 season shits on Malones 94 season so bad that he could've decided NOT to play in the playoffs and still have a much better season than Malones.

:oldlol:

Riiiiiiiight. Let's all make believe THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7SbG-8Bvgk) didn't happen.

Can you imagine the sort of backlash Lebron or Kobe would get if they decided to quit on their team in a crucial playoff game moment because they wanted to pout on the sidelines because the play wasn't drawn up for them? They would NEVER live that down, and they shouldn't. That's unforgivable. Quitting on your team like that in a regular season game should warrant a void in contract and a year long suspension. But in the playoffs? You can't just sweep that under the rug.

Pippen was the ultimate beta and a world class choke artist (for further proof see 2000, game 7). Great all around player, but he was more of a mental midget than Bron. All that bandwagon hopping he did after 98, playing with teams more talented than any team Malone did... all led to absolutely nothing. Malone is by far the greater player and anyone who argues otherwise is smoking some new age crack/meth hybrid.



Playing with the GOAT doesn't make you better than a top 2 GOAT PF.

[avonbarksdale]

That's why Lebron have the best of both worlds. He's a 4x NBA MVP, and 2x Finals MVP, Back to back NBA champion.

jesus christ your such a terrible poster

[97 bulls]

:oldlol:

Riiiiiiiight. Let's all make believe THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7SbG-8Bvgk) didn't happen.

Can you imagine the sort of backlash Lebron or Kobe would get if they decided to quit on their team in a crucial playoff game moment because they wanted to pout on the sidelines because the play wasn't drawn up for them? They would NEVER live that down, and they shouldn't. That's unforgivable. Quitting on your team like that in a regular season game should warrant a void in contract and a year long suspension. But in the playoffs? You can't just sweep that under the rug.

Pippen was the ultimate beta and a world class choke artist (for further proof see 2000, game 7). Great all around player, but he was more of a mental midget than Bron. All that bandwagon hopping he did after 98, playing with teams more talented than any team Malone did... all led to absolutely nothing. Malone is by far the greater player and anyone who argues otherwise is smoking some new age crack/meth hybrid.



Playing with the GOAT doesn't make you better than a top 2 GOAT PF.
So your only rebutal is that one play? That's all you got? Wow. Thanx for playing.

[gin17]

ring > mvp
mvp player > player with ring as second option

i mean, rings are more valuable than mvps and i'd rather have that 9 times out of 10, but the greater player of the two is probably the one with the MVP.

[97 bulls]

Can you*imagine*the sort of backlash Lebron or Kobe would get if they decided to quit on their team in a crucial playoff game moment because they wanted to pout on the sidelines because the play wasn't drawn up for them?*

Lol that play was damn near 20 years ago. And YOU wont let it go. You want to talk ethics bewteen Malone an Pippen? Malone tried to **** his teammates wife.

[DonDadda59]

So your only rebutal is that one play? That's all you got? Wow. Thanx for playing.

Get the f*ck outta here. My 'rebuttal' was their careers :lol

You think ONE season where Pippen did the same as a TMac or Grant Hill means he's greater than Karl Malone? Especially a season that ended by him proving to the world he was too much of a mental midget to handle having the keys to the car? Even he knew the deal by the end of that failed stint:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-kw2PSWXhguk/UVnyfYPJhfI/AAAAAAAAAxo/1rQcszYCSh4/s1000-fcrop64%3D1,005e0000ffa0ffff/pippen-mj.gif

Luckily the GOAT came back from his vacation and saved the Bulls from the pit of mediocrity they had fallen into the very next season.

And I love how you try to sweep that debacle under the rug like it was some small, meaningless play. They were about to go down 3-0 in the series and HE SAT OUT THE FINAL PLAY. Not because he was injured, not because he fouled out... but because his feelings were hurt. He chose to pout and nurse his ego instead of going out there and helping his team. That is bad as it gets. One of the worst, if not THE worst, displays by a 'superstar'. Good thing Tony saved them that night or it would've been far worse.

[CJ Mustard]

Pippen will go down in History as the better player with the much better resume then Malone...

Heck he has gone down as the better player....we talk about Pippen alot....hardly ever see anyone talk about Malone.

We talk about Pippen more then Barkley...


You ask any player if they would rather be a main contributor to a championship team or win a regular season MVP award and get merked outta the playoff's.....I guarantee 99% would rather be a main contributor to a Championship.


cough 07' Dirk...Lebron ( left a championship contender to join 2 other superstars)...Nash etc...etc...
:roll:

[DonDadda59]

:roll:

I know right. I have no clue what these guys are on. Must be some good shit doe :lol

[tpols]

Depends on the second option.. Theres a difference between Jason Terry/Otis Thorpe and KAJ/Kobe

enough wit the black and white trolling

[97 bulls]

Get the f*ck outta here. My 'rebuttal' was their careers :lol

You think ONE season where Pippen did the same as a TMac or Grant Hill means he's greater than Karl Malone? Especially a season that ended by him proving to the world he was too much of a mental midget to handle having the keys to the car? Even he knew the deal by the end of that failed stint:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-kw2PSWXhguk/UVnyfYPJhfI/AAAAAAAAAxo/1rQcszYCSh4/s1000-fcrop64%3D1,005e0000ffa0ffff/pippen-mj.gif

Luckily the GOAT came back from his vacation and saved the Bulls from the pit of mediocrity they had fallen into the very next season.

And I love how you try to sweep that debacle under the rug like it was some small, meaningless play. They were about to go down 3-0 in the series and HE SAT OUT THE FINAL PLAY. Not because he was injured, not because he fouled out... but because his feelings were hurt. He chose to pout and nurse his ego instead of going out there and helping his team. That is bad as it gets. One of the worst, if not THE worst, displays by a 'superstar'. Good thing Tony saved them that night or it would've been far worse.
I don't see how I'm sweeping it under the rug. It was bad and terrible decision. Was it worse than attempting to sleep with another mans wife? Especially when he's a married man himself. And a teammate?

What's more, didn't Karl Malone.impregnate a 13 year old girl? I believe.he did.
http://espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hill/080507

[VIntageNOvel]

do you think ribbery/CR would prefer ballon d or instead of winning world cup ?:coleman:

[Norcaliblunt]

What is going to make you the most money? Probably an MVP, so I'lll go with that.

[DonDadda59]

I don't see how I'm sweeping it under the rug. It was bad and terrible decision. Was it worse than attempting to sleep with another mans wife? Especially when he's a married man himself. And a teammate?

What's more, didn't Karl Malone.impregnate a 13 year old girl? I believe.he did.
http://espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hill/080507

What does anything off the court have to do with who is the greater player? Are we discussing balls or watching TMZ? That was a basketball moment. Pretty much the worst thing a player can do, especially the best player on the team. When his squad needed him most, he quit on them... during the game... in the playoffs.

[VIntageNOvel]

What is going to make you the most money? Probably an MVP, so I'lll go with that.

:biggums:

yes, if youre mvp you probably getting that max contract, if youre not taking a paycut though :coleman:

[DMV2]

Give me a ring and a moment like Ray Allen's corner 3 or Artest's 3 to secure the championship. That would be enough for my career...and maybe add $50 million on a 10-year career to that so I can retire at 32.

[Norcaliblunt]

MVP's get max contracts. Second best players don't. That is all that matters and anybody saying different is lying.

//END THREAD

[DMV2]

I'll take this guy's career but minus the Rockets and Suns years. 16 years is too damn for me.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/horryro01.html

1998-2008 with the Lakers and Spurs. 5 rings, many memorable moments in NBA playoff history. I'll leave the game a happy man.

[VIntageNOvel]

MVP's get max contracts. Second best players don't. That is all that matters and anybody saying different is lying.

//END THREAD

3 Amar'e Stoudemire, PF New York Knicks $21,679,893
4 Joe Johnson, SG Brooklyn Nets $21,466,718
5 Carmelo Anthony, SF New York Knicks $21,388,953
6 Dwight Howard, C Houston Rockets $20,513,178
7 Pau Gasol, C Los Angeles Lakers $19,285,850
8 Chris Bosh, C Miami Heat $19,067,500
9 LeBron James, SF Miami Heat $19,067,500

:coleman:

[theoneneo]

But Kobe's numbers in 01, and 02 we're better or on par with most FMVP's over the years. Heck his 01 playoff run is just as good as any of Bran's title runs.

[Norcaliblunt]

3 Amar'e Stoudemire, PF New York Knicks $21,679,893
4 Joe Johnson, SG Brooklyn Nets $21,466,718
5 Carmelo Anthony, SF New York Knicks $21,388,953
6 Dwight Howard, C Houston Rockets $20,513,178
7 Pau Gasol, C Los Angeles Lakers $19,285,850
8 Chris Bosh, C Miami Heat $19,067,500
9 LeBron James, SF Miami Heat $19,067,500

:coleman:


None of those first 4 players have won shit, and the fact they take more money instead of being lesser paid second options which they most definitely should be, proves players care more about making money than winning championships.

Lebron being Lebron got him a hundred mil before even playing a game yet.

[VIntageNOvel]

None of those first 4 players have won shit, and the fact they take more money instead of being lesser paid second options which they most definitely should be, proves players care more about making money than winning championships.

Lebron being Lebron got him a hundred mil before even playing a game yet.


i see 4 second options (nah one is third option) in that list :coleman:
nah you could argue coward is second option too

so your statement of MVP getting max money >> second option money is invalid

[Norcaliblunt]

i see 4 second options (nah one is third option) in that list :coleman:
nah you could argue coward is second option too

so your statement of MVP getting max money >> second option money is invalid

Other than Bosh and Gasol who's winning championships? That's what this thread is about. Plus Lakers and Heat are anomalies who will spend out the ass, but even then Gasol still isn't making as much as Kobe, and Bosh isn't coming close to what Lebron makes in endorsements. It isn't all about your nba contract, MVPs get those big time endorsement deals as well.

[97 bulls]

What does anything off the court have to do with who is the greater player? Are we discussing balls or watching TMZ? That was a basketball moment. Pretty much the worst thing a player can do, especially the best player on the team. When his squad needed him most, he quit on them... during the game... in the playoffs.
You don't want to discuss what they accomplishedbon the court. You want to sling mud. Like I stated. Pippens decision was a dumb one. But attempting to sleep with your teammates wife is worse in my opinion. It did effect the team as it was a distraction.

Ok. Now that we have spent four or five posts on their transgressions, lets discuss their accomplishments. Did Karl Malone have a better season than Scottie Pippen in.1994?

[DonDadda59]

Ok. Now that we have spent four or five posts on their transgressions, lets discuss their accomplishments.

I already listed their major accomplishments to drive home just how much of a mismatch it was comparatively.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9518226&postcount=145


Did Karl Malone have a better season than Scottie Pippen in.1994?

Counting the postseason, yes. Clearly. Not even up for debate. Much like their careers.

Even if you think Pippen's 1 season in '94 is better than Karl's 1 season in '94... what about the 17-19 other seasons each played? Karl was the superior player by a mile. He has him in stats, accomplishments, peak, longevity. The only thing Pip has on him is rings he wasn't even the biggest factor in attaining.

[97 bulls]

I already listed their major accomplishments to drive home just how much of a mismatch it was comparatively.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9518226&postcount=145



Counting the postseason, yes. Clearly. Not even up for debate. Much like their careers.

Even if you think Pippen's 1 season in '94 is better than Karl's 1 season in '94... what about the 17-19 other seasons each played? Karl was the superior player by a mile. He has him in stats, accomplishments, peak, longevity. The only thing Pip has on him is rings he wasn't even the biggest factor in attaining.
Unfortunately Dada....... we will never know. Which is what makes your argument so dumb. What your saying is sure Pippen won six titles, but he had Jordan and a great team. You see, I don't disagree with that. In fact I scream it. So basically your implying that if Malone had ten years with same caliber teammates Pippen had then he'd have multiple championships.

But like Malones legit opportunities to win a championship, Pippen only had one season as the undisputed leader of his team. And he had a spectacular season. Is it so far fetched to say that had he had multiple years on hus own, hed probably snag an MVP award and even a DPOY award?

To summarize, Pippen has some amazing accomplishments as has Malone, why does Pippen have to be handicapped?

[DonDadda59]

Unfortunately Dada....... we will never know.

What? :biggums:

You have their whole careers to compare. It's not a hypothetical question. Karl Malone was the better player, easily.


Which is what makes your argument so dumb. What your saying is sure Pippen won six titles, but he had Jordan and a great team. You see, I don't disagree with that. In fact I scream it. So basically your implying that if Malone had ten years with same caliber teammates Pippen had then he'd have multiple championships.

Yes, if Karl Malone was Jordan's #2 he'd have at least the same number of titles, probably more since he would've been enough to help get the Bulls past the Pistons (Pippen choked HARD that one game 7).


But like Malones legit opportunities to win a championship, Pippen only had one season as the undisputed leader of his team. And he had a spectacular season. Is it so far fetched to say that had he had multiple years on hus own, hed probably snag an MVP award and even a DPOY award?

Again, we're not talking about hypothethicals. You can't claim Pippen>Malone because you think beta Scottie could've had a better career if he wasn't the GOATs helper. Plus, he doesn't win shit (MVP, championship, DPOY, scoring title) with MJ, Olajuwon, Malone, etc in the league. No way. He had plenty of opportunities with some great teams post MJ to do so and the results were very lackluster.


To summarize, Pippen has some amazing accomplishments as has Malone, why does Pippen have to be handicapped?

Who the hell is 'handicapping' Pippen? Dude was the perfect complimentary player and a HOFer. Your problem is you want to live in a world of 'what ifs' instead of looking at what actually happened.

Malone>>>>Pippen.

[97 bulls]

What? :biggums:

You have their whole careers to compare. It's not a hypothetical question. Karl Malone was the better player, easily.



Yes, if Karl Malone was Jordan's #2 he'd have at least the same number of titles, probably more since he would've been enough to help get the Bulls past the Pistons (Pippen choked HARD that one game 7).



Again, we're not talking about hypothethicals. You can't claim Pippen>Malone because you think beta Scottie could've had a better career if he wasn't the GOATs helper. Plus, he doesn't win shit (MVP, championship, DPOY, scoring title) with MJ, Olajuwon, Malone, etc in the league. No way. He had plenty of opportunities with some great teams post MJ to do so and the results were very lackluster.



Who the hell is 'handicapping' Pippen? Dude was the perfect complimentary player and a HOFer. Your problem is you want to live in a world of 'what ifs' instead of looking at what actually happened.

Malone>>>>Pippen.
Lol I want to live in a world of what ifs? Isn't it your assertion that IF Malone had the same opportunities as Pippen hed have multiple championships? And that IF Pippen didn't have Jordan, hed doesn't win?

And you want to talk about choking? Didn't Malone miss two crucial fts in game one vs the Bulls in 97 that would've all but sealed a victory? Wasn't it Malone that got stripped by Jordan in the last few crucial seconds of game six in 98?

Karl Malone is known as one of the biggest chokers in the NBA. And what's more, SCOTTIE PIPPEN WON. Six times bro. Be reasonable.

[DonDadda59]

Lol I want to live in a world of what ifs? Isn't it your assertion that IF Malone had the same opportunities as Pippen hed have multiple championships? And that IF Pippen didn't have Jordan, hed doesn't win?

Yup. But I'm not ranking players in reality based on hypotheticals. You're saying Pippen should be ranked higher because 'we'll never know' :rolleyes: although we've seen both their careers play out in their entirety.


And you want to talk about choking? Didn't Malone miss two crucial fts in game one vs the Bulls in 97 that would've all but sealed a victory? Wasn't it Malone that got stripped by Jordan in the last few crucial seconds of game six in 98?

You mean after Malone led them to 2 straight finals? Pippen quit on his team in the most despicable fashion imagineable in the second round when he was given the keys to the franchise, pulled a Lebron to join Hakeem and Barkley at age 32... did absolutely nothing. Joined a legitimately stacked Portland team, pulled one of the biggest choke jobs in NBA History in game 7. Then faded away into obscurity.

He had plenty of opportunities to play out your little what ifs on his own during Jordans 2 retirements. No championships, no MVPs, no DPOYs, no scoring titles. Just one choke job after the other.


Karl Malone is known as one of the biggest chokers in the NBA. And what's more, SCOTTIE PIPPEN WON. Six times bro. Be reasonable.

MICHAEL JORDAN WON, with Scottie Pippen helping. What next, you're gonna tell me Horry>Pippen because he has 1 more championship. Karl Malone is way ahead of Pippen on any 'reasonable list'.

[97 bulls]

Yup. But I'm not ranking players in reality based on hypotheticals. You're saying Pippen should be ranked higher because 'we'll never know' :rolleyes: although we've seen both their careers play out in their entirety.



You mean after Malone led them to 2 straight finals? Pippen quit on his team in the most despicable fashion imagineable in the second round when he was given the keys to the franchise, pulled a Lebron to join Hakeem and Barkley at age 32... did absolutely nothing. Joined a legitimately stacked Portland team, pulled one of the biggest choke jobs in NBA History in game 7. Then faded away into obscurity.

He had plenty of opportunities to play out your little what ifs on his own during Jordans 2 retirements. No championships, no MVPs, no DPOYs, no scoring titles. Just one choke job after the other.



MICHAEL JORDAN WON, with Scottie Pippen helping. What next, you're gonna tell me Horry>Pippen because he has 1 more championship. Karl Malone is way ahead of Pippen on any 'reasonable list'.
Show me anywhere where I said Pippen should be ranked higher. Moe asked me if I ranked Pippen higher than Malone. I said no. I dont like ranking players. I said Id put them in the same tier. I didn't create any kind of hypotheticals. You're the one that came in with the hypotheticals. Just by the fact that you belittle Pippens championships because of Jordan. Your whole argument isn't centered around Pippen winning six titles, but IF (theres that word again) he didn't have Jordan, he wouldn't win. You do realize that that is a hypothetical right?

[DonDadda59]

Show me anywhere where I said Pippen should be ranked higher. Moe asked me if I ranked Pippen higher than Malone. I said no. I dont like ranking players. I said Id put them in the same tier. I didn't create any kind of hypotheticals. You're the one that came in with the hypotheticals. Just by the fact that you belittle Pippens championships because of Jordan. Your whole argument isn't centered around Pippen winning six titles, but IF (theres that word again) he didn't have Jordan, he wouldn't win. You do realize that that is a hypothetical right?

That's great and all but Malone>Pippen. Clearly. No matter what angle you look at it from, it will always look the same way. They are not in the same tier, not remotely. No need to play the 'we will never know' game.

We know.

[97 bulls]

You mean after Malone led them to 2 straight finals? Pippen quit on his team in the most despicable fashion imagineable in the second round when he was given the keys to the franchise, pulled a Lebron to join Hakeem and Barkley at age 32... did absolutely nothing. Joined a legitimately stacked Portland team, pulled one of the biggest choke jobs in NBA History in game 7. Then faded away into obscurity.

I got it bro. Scottie Pippen is going to hell for sitting out that game in 94, and not leading the old ass Rockets and malcontent Trailblazers to a title. Let's just forget that he did win six titles.

How do you feel about Magic choking away a championship in 84? Bird losing seven times with home court, LeBron James losing as the favorite in 09 and 11? Shaq and Kobe losing as the favorite in 04? Kobe, Jordan, and James basically sabotaged thier teams chances of winning when they chose to mentally check out and not help their team.

I can go on and on. You're setting a standard for Pippen that no player has been able to meet.

[97 bulls]

That's great and all but Malone>Pippen. Clearly. No matter what angle you look at it from, it will always look the same way. They are not in the same tier, not remotely. No need to play the 'we will never know' game.

We know.
That's your opinion bro. Its your reasong that warped.

[juju151111]

That's your opinion bro. Its your reasong that warped.
Actually his reasoning makes more sense then yours. Way more actually.

[moe94]

Why did you two guys turn this into yet another Pippen thread?

[J Shuttlesworth]

It depends on the MVP... some of those MVPs resulted in a ring, so obviously an MVP+ring in a year > just a ring as a second option. I'd say even if a team makes it to the finals, I'd rather be an MVP that made it to the finals than a second option option for a championship.

It also depends on the finals performance. Kobe as a second option was still great. I would take his rings over DRose's MVP, which didn't even lead to the finals.

[kshutts1]

That's great and all but Malone>Pippen. Clearly. No matter what angle you look at it from, it will always look the same way. They are not in the same tier, not remotely. No need to play the 'we will never know' game.

We know.
When looking at their careers, and ranking them as such, it's pretty silly to have Pippen listed higher than Malone.
But when discussing hypotheticals, and what ifs, and possibilities, it's pretty silly to discount all that Pippen accomplished in one and a half seasons as "the man" and to not think that he could have been even better, if given more time to grow in to the role.
Pippen is in my fourth tier, Malone's in my third. But IF Jordan had stayed retired that first time, I believe they'd be viewed much more similarly.
...But as DD has been saying, Jordan didn't, so they aren't.

[guy]

Again, youre missing the point of the question. Its MVP vs the Number two guy. Now let's be honest. There's really only two players on your list who's names are still routinely mentioned. Barkley and Pippens. And Barkleys has a lot to do with him being on TNT and sticking his foot in his mouth.

And Pippen being mentioned a lot has more to do with someone else then it has to do with him.

[97 bulls]

And Pippen being mentioned a lot has more to do with someone else then it has to do with him.
Well damn. Ain't that every player?

[guy]

Well damn. Ain't that every player?

Ummm, no. Not sure you understood my post. Pippen being routinely brought up has more to do with who he's associated with then his own greatness. There's no way he's talked about this much if he didn't play with Jordan, and played somewhere like Seattle instead. Its not a knock on him. Doesn't mean he's not great. Same thing can be said about many players i.e. James Worthy, Kevin McHale, Robert Parish, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, Pau Gasol, Chris Bosh, Rajon Rondo, etc. probably aren't brought up nearly as much either if it weren't for who they played with.

[97 bulls]

When looking at their careers, and ranking them as such, it's pretty silly to have Pippen listed higher than Malone.
But when discussing hypotheticals, and what ifs, and possibilities, it's pretty silly to discount all that Pippen accomplished in one and a half seasons as "the man" and to not think that he could have been even better, if given more time to grow in to the role.
Pippen is in my fourth tier, Malone's in my third. But IF Jordan had stayed retired that first time, I believe they'd be viewed much more similarly.
...But as DD has been saying, Jordan didn't, so they aren't.
That's not what he's saying. He's creating a hypothetical situation in which Pippen fails miserably with no basis other than what Scottie Pippen did or didn't do as an old man between (33-35 years old). With a bad back. And thus because he didnt win championships and as an old man with a bad back, then the six championships he did win have little to no merit.

Now again I ask...... whos being more unreasonable.

I readily acknowledge that it's not fair to criticize Malone for not winning because he had only one legit shot. But its also not fair to criticize Pippen because he never really had a legitimate opportunity to learn from his failures as well.

Or Dadas stance - Belittle a player like Scottie Pippen for not winning as the man, even though he played a huge role in the championships he did win. But make excuses for a player like Malone who didnt win.

All I'm looking for is some kind of consistency.

[97 bulls]

Ummm, no. Not sure you understood my post. Pippen being routinely brought up has more to do with who he's associated with then his own greatness. There's no way he's talked about this much if he didn't play with Jordan, and played somewhere like Seattle instead. Its not a knock on him. Doesn't mean he's not great. Same thing can be said about many players i.e. James Worthy, Kevin McHale, Robert Parish, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, Pau Gasol, Chris Bosh, Rajon Rondo, etc. probably aren't brought up nearly as much either if it weren't for who they played with.
Ummm yes.

Heres the difference. All the players you mentioned in the bold sucked when they had an opportunity. Failed miserably I might add. Their teams barely made the playoffs or didn't. They weren't legit MVP caliber players etc. And in some cases, they had talent and just underachieved. Pippen also got that chance and flourished. Was an MVP candidate, and took his team deep in the playoffs. And never had a great hall of fame caliber player playing next to him. So it's not farfetched to say he's that that type of player because he was.

[NumberSix]

Could KD be the first player to win league MVP and a 2nd option ring in the same season?

[guy]

Ummm yes.

Heres the difference. All the players you mentioned in the bold sucked when they had an opportunity. Failed miserably I might add. Their teams barely made the playoffs or didn't. They weren't legit MVP caliber players etc. And in some cases, they had talent and just underachieved. Pippen also got that chance and flourished. Was an MVP candidate, and took his team deep in the playoffs. And never had a great hall of fame caliber player playing next to him. So it's not farfetched to say he's that that type of player because he was.

When did Parker and Ginobili have that opportunity? We've had this conversation before and I obviously disagree cause I just don't see it as that black and white and I'm not going to bother having it with you again.

Either way, what does that have to do with anything? Its completely off-topic. Doesn't change what I said. Scottie Pippen is literally like the 2nd most talked about player of the 90s. Him being brought up that much and way more then all the other 90s superstars other then Jordan and maybe Barkley (because of TNT) has way more to do with his association with Jordan then because of how great he is.

[97 bulls]

When did Parker and Ginobili have that opportunity? We've had this conversation before and I obviously disagree cause I just don't see it as that black and white and I'm not going to bother having it with you again.

Either way, what does that have to do with anything? Its completely off-topic. Doesn't change what I said. Scottie Pippen is literally like the 2nd most talked about player of the 90s. Him being brought up that much and way more then all the other 90s superstars other then Jordan and maybe Barkley (because of TNT) has way more to do with his association with Jordan then because of how great he is.
I aplogize Guy. Id don't remember us having a conversation about Parker and Ginoblis ability to lead a team. So my answer is I dont know. They never had even one opportunity unlike the others you mentioned. You could probably add Rondo as well. But I dont see why TP couldn't have had a career similar to Kevin Johnson. Or Manu leading a team similarly to how Dennis Johnson did back in the 70s. Theres a reason as to how the Spurs have been able to be so successful. And its not solely because of Duncan. Why is it so hard to grasp that great teams are comprised of ultra talented players playing lesser roles for the success of the team.


Pippen gets discussed more than the other beczuse he was truly successful. But Jordan fans don't want to acknowledge this because they feel that it undermines the greatness of Jordan. That's a twisted way of thinking.

[Vienceslav]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNFHuhLM7sI
This should be the official theme music of ISH.

[guy]

I aplogize Guy. Id don't remember us having a conversation about Parker and Ginoblis ability to lead a team. So my answer is I dont know. They never had even one opportunity unlike the others you mentioned. You could probably add Rondo as well. But I dont see why TP couldn't have had a career similar to Kevin Johnson. Or Manu leading a team similarly to how Dennis Johnson did back in the 70s. Theres a reason as to how the Spurs have been able to be so successful. And its not solely because of Duncan. Why is it so hard to grasp that great teams are comprised of ultra talented players playing lesser roles for the success of the team.


Pippen gets discussed more than the other beczuse he was truly successful. But Jordan fans don't want to acknowledge this because they feel that it undermines the greatness of Jordan. That's a twisted way of thinking.

No we haven't had that specific conversation. I think you've misunderstood again, but whatever, its not relevant.

You are clearly delusional if you think Pippen being literally the 2nd most talked about player of his era and so much more talked about then guys like Ewing, Drexler, Robinson, Stockton, Payton, etc. isn't almost completely because of the fact that he played with Jordan. Thats not a coincidence. It doesn't mean he's not a great player, but this is obvious.

[AirFederer]

If I'm a "second option" putting up 29 / 5 / 5 or 25 / 5 / 5 and playing elite defense, carrying the team in road games or showing up big in the clutch? I'm taking the championship to be honest. Point of the game is to win. It's a team game ... right?

This. No doubt.

[DonDadda59]

That's not what he's saying. He's creating a hypothetical situation in which Pippen fails miserably with no basis other than what Scottie Pippen did or didn't do as an old man between (33-35 years old).

What? :biggums:

You're the one who started the 'we will never know' nonsense like Pippen was Len Bias or some shit :lol

And for the record, Pippen left the Bulls a few months after Jordan carried him to yet another ring at age 32 to form a super team with Olajuwon and Barkley. They lost in the first round. Then he jumped ship after throwing Barkley under the bus and blaming him for the team's failures (World Class Teammate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-ugxfIYANA)) and joined up with a super stacked Blazers team which he himself said could win a championship without him.

They went ahead to produce one of the biggest choke displays in the History of the league (CLUTCH (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAxEBNM5cNs))

His production- 12 PPG (44%)/6 RPG/5APG. 1X All NBA Defense 1st team.

Now let's look at what his contemporary did at similar ages.

Karl Malone (ages 32-35)- 26 PPG (53%)/10 RPG/4 APG. 2X MVP, Led the Jazz to 2 straight finals, 4X All NBA first team, 3X All NBA Defense first team, 4X All star

So again, this isn't a 'we'll never know' hypothetical situation... this is what actually happened, in reality. This is real life shit. Pippen had every chance to prove himself post Jordan on ultra stacked teams. He failed. Karl Malone>>>Scottie Pippen.



I readily acknowledge that it's not fair to criticize Malone for not winning because he had only one legit shot. But its also not fair to criticize Pippen because he never really had a legitimate opportunity to learn from his failures as well.

Because of Sir Charles' 'sorry fatt butt'? :confusedshrug:

[tpols]

Because of Sir Charles' 'sorry fatt butt'? :confusedshrug:


I hate that fat f—.


A great, great player, maybe unstoppable. [B]But hes got no discipline, none. You cant win with a player like that.

Seems like Pippen was right:confusedshrug:

[I<3NBA]

all the MVPs in the world would be hollow without a championship.

[MavsSuperFan]

MVP to me is super underrated around here.

MVP is definitely >>>>>>>>>> than a ring as a second option
MVP might even be better than a ring as a first option.

Eg. in 2004 garnett >>>> Billups

[secund2nun]

MVP easily. A ring as a 2nd option doesn't mean much.

[NumberSix]

MVP easily. A ring as a 2nd option doesn't mean much.
Who would you rank higher? Karl Malone or Jason Terry?

[tpols]

Who would you rank higher? Karl Malone or Jason Terry?

Who would you rank higher? Derrick Rose or Kareem Abdul Jabbar?

[NumberSix]

Who would you rank higher? Derrick Rose or Kareem Abdul Jabbar?
KAJ has 1st option rings.


Although, Derrick rose is better, right n..... actually. Kareem at whatever age he is is probably better than No-knees Rose, right now.

[tpols]

KAJ has 1st option rings.
He also has second option rings worth more than Derrick's MVP.. or Nash's.. or Iversons etc.

[DonDadda59]

KAJ has 1st option rings.

And the most MVPs all time. I would assume it'd be an easy choice :confusedshrug:

Was that a trick question? :confusedshrug:

[NumberSix]

And the most MVPs all time. I would assume it'd be an easy choice :confusedshrug:

Was that a trick question? :confusedshrug:
Yes. If......


Trick question = question asked by a trick.

[DonDadda59]

Yes. If......


Trick question = question asked by a trick.

:lebronamazed:

[tpols]

Yes. If......


Trick question = question asked by a trick.
:oldlol: that was actually good

[NumberSix]

:oldlol: that was actually good
I do what I can. :cheers:

[Vienceslav]

81 point game > FMVP

[NumberSix]

81 point game > FMVP
10 points against a good team > 81 against Toronto

[97 bulls]

What? :biggums:

You're the one who started the 'we will never know' nonsense like Pippen was Len Bias or some shit :lol

And for the record, Pippen left the Bulls a few months after Jordan carried him to yet another ring at age 32 to form a super team with Olajuwon and Barkley. They lost in the first round. Then he jumped ship after throwing Barkley under the bus and blaming him for the team's failures (World Class Teammate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-ugxfIYANA)) and joined up with a super stacked Blazers team which he himself said could win a championship without him.

They went ahead to produce one of the biggest choke displays in the History of the league (CLUTCH (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAxEBNM5cNs))

His production- 12 PPG (44%)/6 RPG/5APG. 1X All NBA Defense 1st team.

Now let's look at what his contemporary did at similar ages.

Karl Malone (ages 32-35)- 26 PPG (53%)/10 RPG/4 APG. 2X MVP, Led the Jazz to 2 straight finals, 4X All NBA first team, 3X All NBA Defense first team, 4X All star

So again, this isn't a 'we'll never know' hypothetical situation... this is what actually happened, in reality. This is real life shit. Pippen had every chance to prove himself post Jordan on ultra stacked teams. He failed. Karl Malone>>>Scottie Pippen.




Because of Sir Charles' 'sorry fatt butt'? :confusedshrug:
SCOTTIE PIPPEN WAS AN OLD MAN AND A SHELL OF HIMSELF BY THE TIME HE GOT TO HOUSTON. DAMN!!!!! He had had three (count them) THREE major back surgeries by this time. And he far and away had played in the most games of any NBA player over a similar span including the playoffs, NBA Finals and Olympics. Even more so, the Rockets still ran their offense through Olajuwan and Barkley. Pippen was relegated to a three point shooter.

By the time he got to Portland, Steve Smith and Rasheed Wallace were that teams best player. Pippen was 35 years old.

You'd have to be the Grand Pooba of morons to truly believe Pippen didn't contribute and co lead the Bulls. His Coaches stated it, his teammates and his peers.

Ill even grant that Malone was far better than Pippen in their mid to late 30s. But he wasn't better than Pippen when both were in their primes. Ive shown you such when comparing 1994. Malone had better stats but what about impact? Id argue that prime Pippen was at least equal. And the coaches, GMs, and their peers agreed based off of the end of season accolades both players received.

Remember the original Dream Team? Who did Chuck Daly (the Pistons coach and bitter rival) say was teams second best and most important player? PIPPEN. Jordan echoed the same sentiment when he told Phil Jackson that Pippen was that teams second best player. And you know who was on that team? Malone.

And again, what makes you any more qualified to use a hypothetical? What are you God? You have no more proof of your point than I do mine.

So again Ill ask you..... why do you keep centering your argument around Pippen not winning in Houston and Portland when he won six titles? And give me a hypothetical answer.

[97 bulls]

No we haven't had that specific conversation. I think you've misunderstood again, but whatever, its not relevant.

You are clearly delusional if you think Pippen being literally the 2nd most talked about player of his era and so much more talked about then guys like Ewing, Drexler, Robinson, Stockton, Payton, etc. isn't almost completely because of the fact that he played with Jordan. Thats not a coincidence. It doesn't mean he's not a great player, but this is obvious.
Id agree. What's your opinion on my Parker/Kevin Johnson and Ginobili/Dennis Johnson comparison?

[DonDadda59]

SCOTTIE PIPPEN WAS AN OLD MAN AND A SHELL OF HIMSELF BY THE TIME HE GOT TO HOUSTON. DAMN!!!!!

He was 32-33, same age Malone was when he won MVP averaging 27/10/4, made 1st team all NBA Offense and Defense, was an all star, and led the Jazz to the Finals.


He had had three (count them) THREE major back surgeries by this time.

Yeah and he missed a huge chunk of the '98 season because of his back injuries and played subpar ball in the playoffs when he came back. No worries though because a 35 year old Jordan put the team on his back (pun intended)- got them the first seed (62 wins, same as Malone) won the MVP, scoring title, and finals MVP. But since Malone lost in those finals putting up 25/11/4 (50% FG) while Pippen won putting up 16/7/5 (41% FG), that makes Pippen>Malone? :confusedshrug:


Even more so, the Rockets still ran their offense through Olajuwan and Barkley. Pippen was relegated to a three point shooter.

So Pippen wasn't first option material? Not even second option? Who knew?


By the time he got to Portland, Steve Smith and Rasheed Wallace were that teams best player. Pippen was 35 years old.

35 year old Malone and Jordan would've been by far the best players on those teams doe. Both those guys won MVPs/scoring titles at 35. But I can see how you'd think Pippen putting up 11/5/5 (45%) at the same age is basically the same thing.


You'd have to be the Grand Pooba of morons to truly believe Pippen didn't contribute and co lead the Bulls. His Coaches stated it, his teammates and his peers

Never said he didn't contribute. Just pointing out that Malone was a far better player and contributed more to his squad. Just didn't have the good fortune of being second banana to the GOAT.


Ill even grant that Malone was far better than Pippen in their mid to late 30s. But he wasn't better than Pippen when both were in their primes. Ive shown you such when comparing 1994.

So basically Pippen having one good year where he quit on his team in a crucial playoff moment and then leading the Bulls to .500 status the next year before Jordan came back to save them tells you that prime for prime he and Malone were equals? Bruh... come on, bruh.


Malone had better stats but what about impact? Id argue that prime Pippen was at least equal.

Malone led his squad to 2 straight finals appearances, where he was clearly the second best player in those series. He won 2 MVP awards and more accolades which I previously listed. Pippen got the Bulls to the second round and then quit. Then went to one stacked team after the other and underachieved.



And the coaches, GMs, and their peers agreed based off of the end of season accolades both players received.

Malone's accolades>>>Pippen's


Remember the original Dream Team? Who did Chuck Daly (the Pistons coach and bitter rival) say was teams second best and most important player? PIPPEN. Jordan echoed the same sentiment when he told Phil Jackson that Pippen was that teams second best player. And you know who was on that team? Malone.

Word? Chuck Daly and Pippen's teammate? Well that settles it.


And again, what makes you any more qualified to use a hypothetical? What are you God? You have no more proof of your point than I do mine.

Yeah except I didn't use any hypotheticals. I gave you the truth- rough, rugged, and raw. All you did was proceed to come up with a laundry list of excuses for why Pippen faded away at the same age Malone was winning MVPs and leading his team to b2b finals appearances.


So again Ill ask you..... why do you keep centering your argument around Pippen not winning in Houston and Portland when he won six titles?

Because your argument was 'we will never know' and I reminded you that Pippen played with ultra talented teams from age 32 on. He averaged 12/6/5 (44%) while during the same age span Malone was a multiple MVP winner and perennial all star and all NBA team member (both offense and defense). That's reality, no need for hypotheticals.

So you can go on making believe Pippen died tragically like Len Bias after the '98 finals or you can come to terms with the fact that the dude was nowhere near the player Karl Malone was, at any age.

[97 bulls]

So you can go on making believe Pippen died tragically like Len Bias after the '98 finals or you can come to terms with the fact that the dude was nowhere near the player Karl Malone was, at any age.
But you act as if Pippens career began in 1999. And I know why. Because then youd have to include his six titles.

Malone's accolades>>>Pippen's
I disagree. I'd take Pippens role on six championship teams over some stats



So basically Pippen having one good year where he quit on his team in a crucial playoff moment and then leading the Bulls to .500 status the next year before Jordan came back to save them tells you that prime for prime he and Malone were equals? Bruh... come on, bruh.
No. How they were regarded when they were in the same situation, vs the same competition tells me.



Never said he didn't contribute. Just pointing out that Malone was a far better player and contributed more to his squad. Just didn't have the good fortune of being second banana to the GOAT.
Lol. I smell a hypothetical. Are you implying that IF Malone had Jordan, he'd have multiple championships?



So Pippen wasn't first option material? Not even second option? Who knew?
Apparently you. So when Pippens teams win, he has nothing to do with it,.if they lose, its his fault? Agenda


Yeah and he missed a huge chunk of the '98 season because of his back injuries and played subpar ball in the playoffs when he came back. No worries though because a*35 year old*Jordan put the team on his back (pun intended)- got them the first seed (62 wins, same as Malone) won the MVP, scoring title, and finals MVP. But since Malone lost in those finals putting up 25/11/4 (50% FG) while Pippen won putting up 16/7/5 (41% FG), that makes Pippen>Malone?**
What are you dumb? Again, show me where I said Scottie Pippen was better than Karl Malone. I showing you that you are wrong when you claim Malone shits on Pippen. And mind you, you didnt say old man Malone vs old man Pippen. Ive put you in a corner and thats all you got.


He was 32-33, same age Malone was when he won MVP averaging 27/10/4, made 1st team all NBA Offense and Defense, was an all star, and led the Jazz to the Finals.
Lol. So? Karl Malone was a better player than Scottie Pippen between the ages of.33-35. Big friggn deal.

[DonDadda59]

But you act as if Pippens career began in 1999.

What the hell are you talking about? Your whole schtick is 'we will never know' ie you were arguing that if Pippen didn't have to play second fiddle to Jordan he could've accomplished the same things Malone did. He got the chance with much better squads and the results were CLEARLY not the same.


And I know why. Because then youd have to include his six titles.

When did I not 'include' the championships? My argument was just that Malone did more for his team and was the better player. In the two finals when they played against each other Pippen put up 18/7/4 (41% FG) while Malone put up 25/11/4 (47% FG). Are we going to sit here and make believe Pip had the bigger impact on those games?

Jordan was by far the biggest factor in who won those 2 series. As it was in all of the 6 championships Pippen won. Hell, let's look at who had their head to head matchups in general:


Reg Season

Malone: 24 PPG/10 RPG/3 APG (50% FG)

Pippen: 15 PPG/5 RPG/4 APG (46% FG)

Pippen has a 20-18 record against Malone.

Playoffs

Malone: 24 PPG/10 RPG /4 APG (47% FG)

Pippen: 16 PPG/7 RPG/5 APG (42% FG)

Pippen has a 12-5 record against Malone.


Would you seriously argue that the statistical production above shows that in their team's head to head matchups... Pippen had the bigger impact? Is that really the reason for Pippen having the edge in the W/L column?


I disagree. I'd take Pippens role on six championship teams over some stats

But Malone had more than just 'stats' and Pippen wasn't even the biggest factor in the 6 championships he won. Would you also take Robert Horry's role on 7 championships over some Nash 'stats'?


No. How they were regarded when they were in the same situation, vs the same competition tells me.

Except when I show you how they performed when 'in the same situation vs the same competition' at the same age (Pippen had the better teams mind you), all of a sudden you have nothing but excuses for why there is a MASSIVE disparity in Karl's favor.



Lol. I smell a hypothetical. Are you implying that IF Malone had Jordan, he'd have multiple championships?

Where do you 'smell' that from in that post?


Apparently you. So when Pippens teams win, he has nothing to do with it,.if they lose, its his fault? Agenda

Again, never said he had nothing to do with it. Just clearly never had the impact or production Malone did. With Jordan out Pippen had one good season followed by .500 ball. After Jordan won him a 6th ring, Pippen couldn't get out of the first round with Hakeem and Barkley when Malone with much less talent made it to the finals in b2b years and was winning MVPs.


What are you dumb? Again, show me where I said Scottie Pippen was better than Karl Malone. I showing you that you are wrong when you claim Malone shits on Pippen. And mind you, you didnt say old man Malone vs old man Pippen. Ive put you in a corner and thats all you got.

Word? :lol

Tell me more about how Scottie's back didn't stop him from riding Jordan's coattails to ring #6 but affected him a few months later playing with the best center and top 2 PF in the league. I'll wait.


Lol. So? Karl Malone was a better player than Scottie Pippen between the ages of.33-35. Big friggn deal.

He was better at any age you compare them. Compare their rookie seasons? Karl. Age 27? Karl. Age 35? Karl by a damn country mile.

[Solefade]

Yes. If......


Trick question = question asked by a trick.



why you so witty doe

[97 bulls]

What the hell are you talking about? Your whole schtick is 'we will never know' ie you were arguing that if Pippen didn't have to play second fiddle to Jordan he could've accomplished the same things Malone did. He got the chance with much better squads and the results were CLEARLY not the same.



When did I not 'include' the championships? My argument was just that Malone did more for his team and was the better player. In the two finals when they played against each other Pippen put up 18/7/4 (41% FG) while Malone put up 25/11/4 (47% FG). Are we going to sit here and make believe Pip had the bigger impact on those games?

Jordan was by far the biggest factor in who won those 2 series. As it was in all of the 6 championships Pippen won. Hell, let's look at who had their head to head matchups in general:


Reg Season

Malone: 24 PPG/10 RPG/3 APG (50% FG)

Pippen: 15 PPG/5 RPG/4 APG (46% FG)

Pippen has a 20-18 record against Malone.

Playoffs

Malone: 24 PPG/10 RPG /4 APG (47% FG)

Pippen: 16 PPG/7 RPG/5 APG (42% FG)

Pippen has a 12-5 record against Malone.


Would you seriously argue that the statistical production above shows that in their team's head to head matchups... Pippen had the bigger impact? Is that really the reason for Pippen having the edge in the W/L column?



But Malone had more than just 'stats' and Pippen wasn't even the biggest factor in the 6 championships he won. Would you also take Robert Horry's role on 7 championships over some Nash 'stats'?



Except when I show you how they performed when 'in the same situation vs the same competition' at the same age (Pippen had the better teams mind you), all of a sudden you have nothing but excuses for why there is a MASSIVE disparity in Karl's favor.




Where do you 'smell' that from in that post?



Again, never said he had nothing to do with it. Just clearly never had the impact or production Malone did. With Jordan out Pippen had one good season followed by .500 ball. After Jordan won him a 6th ring, Pippen couldn't get out of the first round with Hakeem and Barkley when Malone with much less talent made it to the finals in b2b years and was winning MVPs.



Word? :lol

Tell me more about how Scottie's back didn't stop him from riding Jordan's coattails to ring #6 but affected him a few months later playing with the best center and top 2 PF in the league. I'll wait.



He was better at any age you compare them. Compare their rookie seasons? Karl. Age 27? Karl. Age 35? Karl by a damn country mile.
Ok let's discuss Pippens 98 NBA Finals.

Game 1. 21 on 37%
Game 2. 21 on 54%
Game 3.10 on 50%*****
Game 4.28 on 50%
Game 5.6 on 13%
Game 6.8 on 57%

Let's start with his worst game. Game 5. Pippen stunk it up. Clearly. They lost by 2 pts. But he did have 11 rbds and 11 assts. Jordan did have 28 pts on 26 shots. To be honest. All the Bulls sucked except Kukoc who scored 30.

Saying that, Pippen had a great Finals overall. he had two solid games, one great one, and got hurt in game six. In fact, he was playing so good that he was the front-runner for finals MVP.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-06-11/sports/9806110398_1_scottie-pippen-bulls-karl-malone

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/635114/What-about-Pippen-for-NBA-Finals-MVP.html?pg=all

Why? Because of his defense. Which brings me to game 3. He only scored 10 pts. But his impact was on the level of a 50-55 pt game. I watched that game recently. The Jazz had 26 TOs if I remember correct. Pippen accounted for 22. He visibly had John Stockton scared. He was all over the place. That was by far the greatest defensive effort Ive ever seen. Jerry Sloan said Pippen drew 9 charges NINE!!!!!!! His defense was so domiant that the Bulls set the record for biggets margin of victory in a Finals game winning by 42 pts

Heres an article talking about Pippens legendary performance

[97 bulls]

Sorry. Here is the article

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/09/sports/nba-finals-every-turn-jazz-finds-pippen-bulls-consummate-defender-picks-apart.html

[97 bulls]

Your problem Dada is you only look at stats.

[DonDadda59]

Your problem Dada is you only look at stats.

No, my problem is that I actually took the time to discuss something as ridiculous as Scottie Pippen being on the same tier as, or... being greater than Karl Malone. I was never even remotely close to being a Malone fan and I realize how asinine it is. All you've done is provide one excuse after the other for why when not under Jordan's wing Pippen did not come even a little close to replicating Malone's success, production, accolades, etc.

Being the support on championship squads does not elevate someone over someone who grossly outperforms them. What next, you're gonna argue Sam Jones>Wilt? :lol

[97 bulls]

No, my problem is that I actually took the time to discuss something as ridiculous as Scottie Pippen being on the same tier as, or... being greater than Karl Malone. I was never even remotely close to being a Malone fan and I realize how asinine it is. All you've done is provide one excuse after ther for why when not under Jordan's wing Pippen did not come even a little close to replicating Malone's success, production, accolades, etc.

Being the support on championship squads does not elevate someone over someone who grossly outperforms them. What next, you're gonna argue Sam Jones>Wilt? :lol
Both Sam Jones and Wilt have championships.

Unlike you, I provided context. I acknowledge both players situations. You can't. All you can do is allude to statistics. Stats that have no weight behind them. I'd be willing to bet that you didn't even watch the 98 Finals. Just went to basketball-reference and copied the end result. And that why I had to set you straight. Notice how you have no rebutal after I actually showed you what went down in the 98 Finals.

You want to argue whether or not Karl Malone as an old man was better tha Scottie Pippen as an old man. Who does that?

[DonDadda59]

Both Sam Jones and Wilt have championships.

But Sam has 10 to Wilt's 2. Surely that means they're at least in the same tier, maybe Sam being ranked higher.

Steve Kerr>Steve Nash too, right?


Unlike you, I provided context. I acknowledge both players situations.

I acknowledge that Pippen wasn't even the best player on his own team and wasn't the biggest factor in acquiring his championships. In context, Malone's production, impact, accolades, longevity trump Pippen's by a WIDE margin. Malone's time as the #1 player on his team and all star caliber talent was longer than Pippen's entire career. Nowhere was the gap between them more apparent than when Pippen struck out from Jordan's shadow and managed to do nothing with more talented teams than Karl.

That's context and player situations right there.


You can't. All you can do is allude to statistics. Stats that have no weight behind them.

So players' production (aka stats) have no bearing in a debate on which is better? If that's the case, Horry>Pippen. Who cares about stats and production, right? Horry 7 rangz>Pippen 6 rangz.

Come on, son :facepalm


I'd be willing to bet that you didn't even watch the 98 Finals.

That'd be money down the drain homie.


Just went to basketball-reference and copied the end result. And that why I had to set you straight.

Yeah you really set me straight with bullshit excuses about Pip being an 'old man' (3 years younger than Malone when he won MVP and led the Jazz to the finals) and his bad back for being the reason he put up 12 PPG when he had just won his 6th ring after missing almost half the '98 season.

You sure showed me :lol


Notice how you have no rebutal after I actually showed you what went down in the 98 Finals.

Didn't bother to even read the link. Assumed it was just more excuses for why Malone completely and thoroughly outperformed him on the same stage while Jordan was winning his 6th finals MVP.

Am I wrong?

Pippen gets hurt in Game 6 of the finals, scores only 8 points. Meanwhile Jordan scores 45, makes all the key plays down the stretch and hits the game winner... but this means not only was Scottie the 'front runner for MVP' :rolleyes: but that he's Karl Malone's equal? Or superior?

Stop it.


You want to argue whether or not Karl Malone as an old man was better tha Scottie Pippen as an old man. Who does that?

Because you can't just sweep the parts of people's careers under the rug that don't help your weak ass argument. :lol

Truth is Malone as an 'old man' won 2 MVPs, led his team to 2 straight finals appearances, was a perennial all NBA and All NBA D member, all star, etc meanwhile Pippen was finally getting the opportunity to show he was more than just along for the MJ experience... and he put up 12 PPG and underachieved on more talented teams than Malone.

And old, young, prime, whatever... Malone>>>Pippen.

[97 bulls]

Didn't bother to even read the link. Assumed it was just more excuses for why Malone completely and thoroughly outperformed him on the same stage while Jordan was winning his 6th finals MVP.
Off course you didn't. This isn't going anywhere. You obviously don't know what your talking about past what basketball-reference tells you.

You obviously would rather stay in ignorance as opposed to being enlightened. Stats

Ill leave with this. As I said in my first post. Would you rather be the Captain of a sinking ship or the Commader (the second highest ranking officer on a Naval ship) of a ship that wins the war.

[DonDadda59]

Off course you didn't. This isn't going anywhere. You obviously don't know what your talking about past what basketball-reference tells you.

Bruh. Nothing I read is going to convince me that Pippen was on his way to winning finals MVP until his back gave out... again, as it did all year when Jordan was carrying the Bulls, yet somehow he still magically won another ring. Those series, clearly, went Jordan>>Malone>>>>Pippen.


You obviously would rather stay in ignorance as opposed to being enlightened. Stats

F*ck off :lol

Nothing you said was 'enlightening'. You're over here trying to argue like a fool that a complimentary player who rode shotgun to some rings is on the same tier as or above s a guy who dominated for nearly 20 years, winning multiple MVPs, ending up as the second all time leading scorer, led his team to multiple finals, etc

You've done nothing but embarrass yourself with the weakest excuses possible about said complimentary player doing what he did best- back up actual superstar players to explain why he didn't even come remotely close to matching the production and accolades of a bonafide first option superstar franchise player.


Ill leave with this. As I said in my first post. Would you rather be the Captain of a sinking ship or the Commader (the second highest ranking officer on a Naval ship) of a ship that wins the war.

I'm too old and my back hurts doe, so I'm a Chief Warrant Officer 3... but I'm better than the Captain on other boat doe.

Embarrassing :facepalm

[D.J.]

I'd rather have the ring as a second option. As far as MVPs, quite a few have been questionable. Second, MVP is a lot like a scoring title. Take Allen Iverson and Tracy McGrady for example. Both were tremendous individual talents who didn't win squat and both won multiple scoring titles. If they had to trade their 30+ PPG scoring titles for 20 PPG seasons while playing second fiddle to a guy like Shaq, I'm sure they'd do it in a microsecond.

Another example can be D-Wade. Back in '09, look how many people blew smoke up LeBron's and Kobe's asses and acknowledged them before Wade. Wade was the true MVP IMO, but he often took a back seat that year because his team was struggling to stay above .500. Wade oddly enough got more recognition when he won titles playing second fiddle to LeBron than in '09 and '10 when he was taking scrubs to the playoffs.

In 15-20 years from now, people will obviously still remember guys like Iverson and McGrady, but champions are remembered more. Same reason why a player like Dominique Wilkins(a 30 PPG scorer at his peak) is unheard of amongst today's youth.

[MichaelCorleone]

FMVP > MVP >>>> sidekick rings

Kobe has 2 FMVPs 1 MVP(:lol ) 3 sidekick rings

Lebron has 2 FMVPs 4 MVPs 0 sidekick rings (2 alpha rings)