Russell to LeBron: "Thank you for leaving me off your Mt. Rushmore."

[NumberSix]

@ these niqqas furiously arguing about players who retired decades before they were born. Lol. Niqqas acting like they were at every game of Russell's rookie season cautiously taking notes.

[JohnFreeman]

@ these niqqas furiously arguing about players who retired decades before they were born. Lol. Niqqas acting like they were at every game of Russell's rookie season cautiously taking notes.
Sad isn't it?

[Solid Snake]

**** Bill Russel.

[Blue&Orange]

When Lebron was throwing lame dunks shirtless in practice, was Russell there with his mobile recording video? No he wasn't, but Lebron's fh@ggots teammates where.

Quid pro quo

[JohnFreeman]

When Lebron was throwing lame dunks shirtless in practice, was Russell there with his mobile recording video? No he wasn't, but Lebron's fh@ggots teammates where.

Quid pro quo


Lebron is on the mount rushmore of *******ry\beta
http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20131126084710/walkingdead/images/0/0f/Post-15337-Christian-Bale-confused-gif-Hje6.gif

[pauk]

There is really only one definite player who should be in everybodies mt. Rushmore and that is MJ, the rest is virtually impossible to make without always leaving at least 1-2 guys "who should be there instead".

[MichaelCorleone]

There is really only one definite player who should be in everybodies mt. Rushmore and that is MJ, the rest is virtually impossible to make without always leaving at least 1-2 guys "who should be there instead".
I agree.

[Odinn]

Why it became this big?

LeBron listed the most influential players to him. Picking Mount Rushmore is not just about picking the greatest 4. It is more like the most influential.

[R.I.P.]

http://sportscrack.com/images/lebrondirktaste_large.jpg

Did Bill wear this t-shirt? :lol

[JohnFreeman]

Why it became this big?

LeBron listed the most influential players to him. Picking Mount Rushmore is not just about picking the greatest 4. It is more like the most influential.
Exactly.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

hell no I wouldnt choose kobe over russell.. I havent seen him play, but Ive read a lot about him and specifically seen what past legends have said and all signs point towards him being the master of intangibles and on another level of understandoing how to impact the game

Seriously? That means nothing. All the historical accounts are probably skewed by the fact that he's the one of the greatest winners ever. But if you haven't seen him play, you just don't know enough to decide who the better player is.

[BoutPractice]

And yet another cold, ruthless victory for Russell.

[Asukal]

These pathetic bran stans disrespecting Russell.... :facepalm

Basketball isn't just about stats, it's sad we don't have enough footage of 50-60's basketball...

[FLDFSU]

I said it once, I will say it again. It is the Lebron haters that reveal the greatness of Lebron. Not his stans. Not the media or his teammates or opponents, but his haters.

Lebron was asked to name HIS Mt. Rushmore of NBA players. And because he did not name YOUR Mt. Rushmore haters are catching feelings. All because it is Lebron, whose opinion really shouldn't be more important than anyone else when it comes to lists like this.

If CP3 was asked to name HIS Mt. Rushmore and left off Magic or Bird, not a ONE of you would give a rat's ass. Or if it was Wade who left of Russell, I promise you we will not get any of this "Oh my God, he is disrespecting a basketball legend." We certainly would not get more than 0.5 a page.

But because it is Lebron, we get 20+ pages of haters talking about Lebron's opinion. This haters, is why Lebron is already an all-time great.

[Pointguard]

God damn it seems like you haven't got a clue how Russell played, or what he did and how much of it those guys TRIED to emulate. Stop looking at their differences and start looking for their similarities. I don't think you've seen enough of Russell though, from the sounds of things. Doesn't seem like you understand the breadth of his abilities and impact. Those guys DID emulate Russell,

Its obvious that those three players did not pattern their game after Russell because Kareem and Hayes had whole different priorities on the court. They came in taking 24 and 25 shots per game. They played a skilled game. They didn't look to facilitate on offense. They didn't outlet like Russell. Its been years since I seen the Haye's clip but I recall he came in a gunner and later on became defensive minded, but it didn't stick either. It would serve Reed no advantage at all to think like playing like Russell. That's like Barkley emulating Gervin.



to the best of each of their abilities, they of course had their own different set of tools, flair and skill sets to put a twist on it but at the end of the day Russell was one giant inspiration for how they played and what habits they'd pick up on the court. Just because you're not aware of how much Russell could do and how much others emulated his play doesn't mean it isn't the truth. I think you need to do a lot more research on Russell before you jump to these conclusions. Russell isn't some guy who played great defense 'but' (whatever insult... bad offense, bad practice habits, unskilled etc) and got lucky 11 times. You've got him pegged wrong if that's what you believe.
I only said he wasn't skilled with the pill in his hand and its been written he didn't like to practice. Everything else you are saying. I have him in my top five all time. So, that's no diss. And I am one of a few, that argues about the strength of defense when comparing players here. He has a flaw and its a flaw that few people would let go. In the Mount Rushmore of all sports in the OTC section, all of the people seriously mentioned were SUPER duper skilled players and were magical with the tool they worked with. Not average or below average. Its not a crazy request on my part. And people have a right to want skilled craft as the pillar of their criteria of greatness.

[Pointguard]

I said it once, I will say it again. It is the Lebron haters that reveal the greatness of Lebron. Not his stans. Not the media or his teammates or opponents, but his haters.

Lebron was asked to name HIS Mt. Rushmore of NBA players. And because he did not name YOUR Mt. Rushmore haters are catching feelings. All because it is Lebron, whose opinion really shouldn't be more important than anyone else when it comes to lists like this.

If CP3 was asked to name HIS Mt. Rushmore and left off Magic or Bird, not a ONE of you would give a rat's ass. Or if it was Wade who left of Russell, I promise you we will not get any of this "Oh my God, he is disrespecting a basketball legend." We certainly would not get more than 0.5 a page.

But because it is Lebron, we get 20+ pages of haters talking about Lebron's opinion. This haters, is why Lebron is already an all-time great.
This.

Lebron has a Mount that he fits in on. Guys that are the pillars to his game and his aspiring greatness. Everybody should have a Mount that they aspire to fit into. Nobody is really going hard about the original Mount Rushmore and its in stone. Its a personal thing as to who you have as great influence on your life. Not something Lebron is imposing on other people.

With that said, you wonder if Jordan, Mr.-not-give-props, on his Mount? Could you imagine the uproar when he says David Thompson? But if its personal why should anybody care?

[tpols]

How does one pattern their game off Bill Russell? Hes a defensive and rebounding beast, master of intangibles and team play. He wasnt flash..Pointguard, by your definition of greatness, Allen Iverson is a top 5 GOAT candidate :oldlol:


Kids want to play like whats in style.. what looks cool. Crossovers, dunks, fadeaways.. thats why Dr. J, Jordan, Kobe etc. are the ones you see kids copying and trying to be like.

Who patterns their game off of a guy like Russell or Rodman? Thats just hard work lol.. no oohing and ahhing over it but its what wins. Such a arbitrary and unimportant way of judging something. Has absolutely nothing to do with the impact they had.

[AnaheimLakers24]

You simply can't have a Mt Rushmore of basketball players.
yes you can
magic/kobe/kareem/shaq

[BoutPractice]

Actually you can pattern your game after Russell by observing the details of how he does things. How to keep blocks inbounds... the art and science of help and recover, all the little tricks to help you be a threat but still be able to protect the basket... the best timing and technique on blocks, when and how to jump... how to use your lower body (your posterior, in fact) to gain position on the block on offense, and how to deny position on defense... how to screen properly, how to do a good outlet pass etc.

Effort is only one part of defense. There is a lot of skill involved. Same thing with off the ball offense.

[Blue&Orange]

http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20131126084710/walkingdead/images/0/0f/Post-15337-Christian-Bale-confused-gif-Hje6.gif
What? Missed the LEbron lame dunk session in practice while his teammates where in the sidelines taking pictures, after he said he would win the dunk contest but being afraid to actually try :lol

Miami betas.

[ArbitraryWater]

He said that? Sounds mad as fcuk! Of course now he's not salty, but its "ether" lmfao...

[jlip]

There isn't one player that has ever said they patterned their game after Russell.

[tpols]

Actually you can pattern your game after Russell by observing the details of how he does things. How to keep blocks inbounds... the art and science of help and recover, all the little tricks to help you be a threat but still be able to protect the basket... the best timing and technique on blocks, when and how to jump... how to use your lower body (your posterior, in fact) to gain position on the block on offense, and how to deny position on defense... how to screen properly, how to do a good outlet pass etc.

Effort is only one part of defense. There is a lot of skill involved. Same thing with off the ball offense.
Yea.. none of that is sexy or appealing. Most players especially young guys have a selfish mentality. They arent looking to be leaders and master finer points of the game. Theyre trying to score and put up stats, get paid, dunk on people..

Rebounders and defenders dont get paid or attention like scorers.. which is why scoring/offense in general is the most emulated thing.


Nobody's showing off their screening skills at the park..

[guy]

There is really only one definite player who should be in everybodies mt. Rushmore and that is MJ, the rest is virtually impossible to make without always leaving at least 1-2 guys "who should be there instead".


No not really. It should definitely be Jordan AND Russell, and the other two spots are debatable IMO. I don't see what argument there is that Russell should not be there. Greatest winner, exemplifies team play, unselfishness, and defense and in his time was universally regarded as the best player in the league, which is really the biggest reason why someone like Oscar, or even Wilt, has no place being picked ahead of Russell in a list like this. Sure, there's arguments about his offense and him having such greater teammates then his peers, which have shown to be dumb arguments and proven wrong for the most part. And sure, you can argue that his era wasn't as difficult, which I would agree with, but fact remains he was a pioneer and his era really set the motion for the NBA to be a great league and it wouldn't be right to not include someone from his era with the league still being relatively young. Its one thing if the league has been around for hundreds of years, but it hasn't.

[BuffaloBill]

Anyone would win in the era Russell played in.



then why didn't they?

[NumberSix]

then why didn't they?
Because they weren't born yet.


Keep it real. Roy Hibbert would absolutely dominate Bill Russell.

[KyrieTheFuture]

Because they weren't born yet.


Keep it real. Roy Hibbert would absolutely dominate Bill Russell.
You could have at least chose someone who can score a basket. This is the weakest big men era of all time, including russells era. Wilt would throw Hibbert around like a rag doll and Russell would hold him to 1/8 shooting.

[Akrazotile]

Because they weren't born yet.


Keep it real. Roy Hibbert would absolutely dominate Bill Russell.


The way I see it, I'm not gonna say Russell couldn't be the same player he was back then in today's game. I mean if guys like Ben Wallace or Dennis Rodman can do it, why not Russell.

But there's no question most decent 'modern bigs' like Hibbert or Varajao could have the impact Russell had back then. The competition simply was not that great. There were 9 teams, and most of them had players who wouldn't even get a D-1 scholarship today.

[Akrazotile]

You could have at least chose someone who can score a basket. This is the weakest big men era of all time, including russells era. Wilt would throw Hibbert around like a rag doll and Russell would hold him to 1/8 shooting.


Nope, wrong.

The reason this era for big men is 'weak' is because of how the game has changed. Wing players have been given more freedom in attacking the basket, as well as launching threes, so the focus for centers is on defense. Paint scoring is typically done from the PF position now. If there were no threes everyone would still throw the ball into the post, but that's not the approach these days.

The players who come over to double a center are also longer and more athletic now. Kareem and Wilt didn't have to worry about guys like Josh Smith or Lebron coming over to help.

If you drop Andrew Bogut into 1968 he's dropping 30 every game if his team asks him to. And swatting midgets all day.


There are billions of people worldwide to pick basketball players from now. You really think they can't find ANYONE who could do the things the tall dudes in 1973 could do? They just prioritize different things now, and being tall doesn't equate to virtual automatic dominance like it used to.

It's just reality.

[KyrieTheFuture]

Nope, wrong.

The reason this era for big men is 'weak' is because of how the game has changed. Wing players have been given more freedom in attacking the basket, as well as launching threes, so the focus for centers is on defense. Paint scoring is typically done from the PF position now. If there were no threes everyone would still throw the ball into the post, but that's not the approach these days.

The players who come over to double a center are also longer and more athletic now. Kareem and Wilt didn't have to worry about guys like Josh Smith or Lebron coming over to help.

If you drop Andrew Bogut into 1968 he's dropping 30 every game if his team asks him to. And swatting midgets all day.


It's just reality.
I already know you're a troll so I won't bother explaining why you're wrong, there are several posters who can do it better than me anyway.

[NumberSix]

The way I see it, I'm not gonna say Russell couldn't be the same player he was back then in today's game. I mean if guys like Ben Wallace or Dennis Rodman can do it, why not Russell.

But there's no question most decent 'modern bigs' like Hibbert or Varajao could have the impact Russell had back then. The competition simply was not that great. There were 9 teams, and most of them had players who wouldn't even get a D-1 scholarship today.
The thing that annoys me about Russell is that his delusion knows no bounds. Like, have some perspective. Yeah, you won 11 titles in an 8 team D-League. Congrats. But this guy once said in the 90s when the league had 27 teams something to the effect of "if I played in this era, I'd still win 11 championships or maybe more" and he was being dead serious.

[jlip]

The way I see it, I'm not gonna say Russell couldn't be the same player he was back then in today's game. I mean if guys like Ben Wallace or Dennis Rodman can do it, why not Russell.

But there's no question most decent 'modern bigs' like Hibbert or Varajao could have the impact Russell had back then. The competition simply was not that great. There were 9 teams, and most of them had players who wouldn't even get a D-1 scholarship today.

In 1965 Bill Russell won his 5th MVP, was all NBA first team, and led the league in rebounding. In the half court the Celtics' offense was run through him. The Celtics' starting pg avg. 5.6apg. Russell avg. 5.3apg. Russell led the team in assists in the playoffs and avg. 18/25/6 on an NBA record 70.5fg% in the Finals. (Neither Rodman nor Ben Wallace ever had the team's offense run through them.) The following players were starting centers and his "not so great competiton" as you put it that season.

Wilt Chamberlain
Willis Reed
Walt Bellamy
Nate Thurmond (Became starter after Wilt was traded)

So we have a 9 team league, and over half of them (Russell's Celtics included) have a Hall of Fame starting center. With 9 teams, that means you play a minimum of 7 games (depending on the division) against each team. More than half of your games are against a Hall of Fame center. How many games against Hall of Fame centers does Howard, Hibbert or Noah play today? Please list me one center in today's game that you know is better than either one of those four centers that Russell faced in more than half of his games in 1965.

[jlip]

The thing that annoys me about Russell is that his delusion knows no bounds. Like, have some perspective. Yeah, you won 11 titles in an 8 team D-League. Congrats. But this guy once said in the 90s when the league had 27 teams something to the effect of "if I played in this era, I'd still win 11 championships or maybe more" and he was being dead serious.

The same way MJ or people from his era claim that he would easily avg. 40ppg in the league today and are serious?

[FrobeShaw]

The same way MJ or people from his era claim that he would easily avg. 40ppg in the league today and are serious?
No, because Jordan already did 37. He could feasibly do 40 with the relaxed defences of today if he was chucking it away on a fast paced team.

[riseagainst]

Can't believe Lebron put Oscar on the Mount Rushmore thing, that guy is a bonafide empty stat padder. I guess Lebron aspires to be that. :confusedshrug:

The Mount Rushmore should be:
The Greatest Player
The Greatest Rivalry in the greatest era (80s) that revitalized the NBA to new heights
The Greatest Winner

[CavaliersFTW]

Its obvious that those three players did not pattern their game after Russell because Kareem and Hayes had whole different priorities on the court. They came in taking 24 and 25 shots per game. They played a skilled game. They didn't look to facilitate on offense. They didn't outlet like Russell. Its been years since I seen the Haye's clip but I recall he came in a gunner and later on became defensive minded, but it didn't stick either. It would serve Reed no advantage at all to think like playing like Russell. That's like Barkley emulating Gervin.


I only said he wasn't skilled with the pill in his hand and its been written he didn't like to practice. Everything else you are saying. I have him in my top five all time. So, that's no diss. And I am one of a few, that argues about the strength of defense when comparing players here. He has a flaw and its a flaw that few people would let go. In the Mount Rushmore of all sports in the OTC section, all of the people seriously mentioned were SUPER duper skilled players and were magical with the tool they worked with. Not average or below average. Its not a crazy request on my part. And people have a right to want skilled craft as the pillar of their criteria of greatness.
Sorry but you are just straight up wrong here.

[jlip]

No, because Jordan already did 37. He could feasibly do 40 with the relaxed defences of today if he was chucking it away on a fast paced team.

Do you know how difficult it is to increase your career high ppg by three points over an entire 82 game season? We're not talking about a 5-7 game stretch. How do we know that MJ didn't max out in 1987 in terms of the energy required to take that many shots a game over an entire season?

[gyu]

Russell so salty :oldlol:

[JellyBean]

You simply can't have a Mt Rushmore of basketball players.

Well stated.

[Pointguard]

How does one pattern their game off Bill Russell? Hes a defensive and rebounding beast, master of intangibles and team play. He wasnt flash..Pointguard, by your definition of greatness, Allen Iverson is a top 5 GOAT candidate :oldlol:

I have no idea of what you are saying. Where did you see my definition??? Asking to have skill isn't a giant request at all. If you lack skills at work you won't have a job. If you have few skills with your wife she will leave you. If you have no parenting skills your kids will resent you. Being a team player will help you but it isn't a substitute.



Kids want to play like whats in style.. what looks cool. Crossovers, dunks, fadeaways.. thats why Dr. J, Jordan, Kobe etc. are the ones you see kids copying and trying to be like.

Who patterns their game off of a guy like Russell or Rodman? Thats just hard work lol.. no oohing and ahhing over it but its what wins. Such a arbitrary and unimportant way of judging something. Has absolutely nothing to do with the impact they had.
Actually it is disrespectful to call Russell a hustle player. I have said he had great impact. While I have seen seen Reggie Evans pump up the Junk Yard Dog and Faried talk of other hustle players glowingly, they respect the work. But at the top, there is always somebody in every thing we do, that has mastered his craft.

[tpols]

I have no idea of what you are saying. Where did you see my definition??? Asking to have skill isn't a giant request at all. If you lack skills at work you won't have a job. If you have few skills with your wife she will leave you. If you have no parenting skills your kids will resent you. Being a team player will help you but it isn't a substitute.


Actually it is disrespectful to call Russell a hustle player. I have said he had great impact. While I have seen seen Reggie Evans pump up the Junk Yard Dog and Faried talk of other hustle players glowingly, they respect the work. But at the top, there is always somebody in every thing we do, that has mastered his craft.

Well that just all depends how you define 'mastered his craft'.

I could, for example, say Jordan didnt master his craft because he never made his teammates better at an elite level like that of Russell or Magic. He couldnt facilitate a great team/offense as well as Russell/Magic could and that is every bit a 'skill' in the game of basketball. Everyone has a hole you could poke in their game..



And your analogies are absolutely ridiculous btw

[Mass Debator]

:applause: :applause: :applause: the only thing he forgot to mention was "I won not 4 but 5 MVPs and still have a full head of hair"

[DMAVS41]

Well that just all depends how you define 'mastered his craft'.

I could, for example, say Jordan didnt master his craft because he never made his teammates better at an elite level like that of Russell or Magic. He couldnt facilitate a great team/offense as well as Russell/Magic could and that is every bit a 'skill' in the game of basketball. Everyone has a hole you could poke in their game..



And your analogies are absolutely ridiculous btw


This. Honestly...

You judge players by the era in which they played. For all we know...Russell would have developed completely differently in this era. He might have aged better...he might have been able to gain more muscle with advances in diet/training...etc.

And the opposite. A guy like Jordan might not develop the way he did...in fact, he wouldn't....he couldn't carry the ball and travel as frequently as he did...he wouldnt' get as many iso touches...etc. if he played at the time of Russell.

What we do know is that no matter when and where Russell played...he won...and he won more than anyone ever all things considered. And he was known by his peers as being as good as Wilt...which is truly shocking considering the beast Wilt was and the "skill" and athleticism with which he played.

Yes, those he didn't see him play should proceed with caution when ranking him, but there is nothing wrong with using the evidence at hand to place Russell near the top all time.

I could just imagine someone like Pointguard saying all the same shit about Magic in 30 years. How he wasn't a great defender or shooter....how he didn't score enough to be great. In fact, I'm sure people are already saying that shit that didn't watch Magic play.

All the evidence points to Russell being great...and a true master of his craft.

[heavensdevil]

unrelated, but did you guys see the KD interview during the rising stars game?, he said his mount rushmore was Vince Carter, Tmac and two other players... think another was KG, Ive been trying to look for the clip or a story on it, but have had no luck.

[Ca$H]

Stupid "generation gay is cool" children defending Bron and talking crap about Russell. Newsflash: LeBron is nothing more than a male prostitute compared to Russell.

[FrobeShaw]

Stupid "generation gay is cool" children defending Bron and talking crap about Russell. Newsflash: LeBron is nothing more than a male prostitute compared to Russell.

:biggums:

you say that while typing on a computer to whine about nonsense on the internet

a luxury that allows you to make trillions of threads on lebron

but yeah, cool generation as you've accomplished a lot in this life :applause:

[Pointguard]

“Coach Don Nelson of the Bucks equates Abdul-Jabbar's transformation with that of Wilt Chamberlain in his final years of pro basketball. Chamberlain, once a great scorer, concentrated on defense and passing as he led the Lakers to an NBA title...

Kareem responded by saying: "Wilt had all the stats and personal glory. But Bill Russell won the championships and was held in higher esteem. Russell was the first player I ever watched closely, and I'm playing similarly to Russell now."

--Kareem in 1978 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=EmMaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=MyoEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6402,3265566&dq=wilt+had+all+the+stats+and+personal+glory+but+b ill+russell+won+the+championships+and+was+held+in+ higher+esteem&hl=en)

Funny I just posted last week in the Giant Steps folder that you can count of Kareem saying the bitter thing toward Wilt, and nothing real about Magic. CavsFTW just posted a video of Kareem talking about big men, and the question came up about Magic vs. the guards today and, as expected, Kareem scurried away from talking about Magic (Note: that the question begged for Kareem to say the obvious about his Magic being a big guard who was able to feed the post, and see over people). Kareem went on to talk about the hand checking rule which was an aversion tactic. He will scurry away from most Magic questions. But the bitter pill is steep with Wilt.

Then you provide a link where he goes in on Wilt which is all he did in the later part of the '70s even made a sexual reference to having Wilt any way he wanted, which I'm sure caused problems with his Mosque. When coming out into the professional world Wilt took Kareem under his wing when he was coming up. To suggest that he was studying somebody else is comical. When the legend Wilt, whose height and game was definitely more similar to Kareem's height and game and was taking him under his wing letting him hold his car and letting him come see him play - not Russell. There early clips of Kareem doing finger rolls.

All of this to say if you think this is about Kareem really patterning his game after Russell instead of away from Wilt, read Kareem more often. Kareem would be trashed harder than ever that year that followed this article.

[Trollsmasher]

Calls basketball a team sport, proceeds to list his personal accomplishments:facepalm

[lpublic_enemyl]

https://www.google.ca/search?q=lebron+james+playing+violin+gif&espv=210&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&imgil=iITcBCC7PQNIOM%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252F encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9 GcRpY-kyAryayA0VM9HSHGlN94ndJRiPjLK6eVQTPmClezO2EAS6%253 B400%253B300%253BIg2p-llMFXTGzM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fgifrific.co m%25252Flebron-james-playing-the-worlds-smallest-violin%25252F&source=iu&usg=__LdqVeA7QiktAQTo8RhepTUXCm7A%3D&sa=X&ei=qncCU5XlE8uNqAGhioD4Aw&ved=0CCoQ9QEwAA&biw=1241&bih=599#facrc=_&imgrc=iITcBCC7PQNIOM%253A%3BIg2p-llMFXTGzM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fgifrific.com%252Fwp-content%252Fuploads%252F2012%252F04%252FLeBron-James-Smallest-Violin-Gif.gif%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fgifrific.com%252Flebr on-james-playing-the-worlds-smallest-violin%252F%3B400%3B300

[Pointguard]

unrelated, but did you guys see the KD interview during the rising stars game?, he said his mount rushmore was Vince Carter, Tmac and two other players... think another was KG, Ive been trying to look for the clip or a story on it, but have had no luck.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1960965-kevin-durant-names-his-all-time-nba-mount-rushmore

Bird, Magic, Jordan, Kareem.

[Pointguard]

Durant left Russell off of his list as well.

[jongib369]

Stupid "generation gay is cool" children defending Bron and talking crap about Russell. Newsflash: LeBron is nothing more than a male prostitute compared to Russell.
http://i62.tinypic.com/2wcik43.jpg

[chosen_one6]

How many people would honestly put Russell on a top 4 Mount Rushmore?

Besides CavaliersFTW's nostalgic, LeBron-hating ass I doubt there'd be a lot of people that would.

[Pointguard]

Well that just all depends how you define 'mastered his craft'.

I have been very clear with this and the whole post is about mastering the tool he works with. Here is a guy with great, outstanding foot movement but never mastered the post move. I just have a real big problem with Pele if he couldn't handle a soccer ball better than anybody before him. If Lou Gehrig couldn't hit a baseball. Gretzky couldn't hit the puck straight.


And your analogies are absolutely ridiculous btw
Your job doesn't require you know a skill? You're unemployed?

[CavaliersFTW]

Funny I just posted last week in the Giant Steps folder that you can count of Kareem saying the bitter thing toward Wilt, and nothing real about Magic. CavsFTW just posted a video of Kareem talking about big men, and the question came up about Magic vs. the guards today and, as expected, Kareem scurried away from talking about Magic (Note: that the question begged for Kareem to say the obvious about his Magic being a big guard who was able to feed the post, and see over people). Kareem went on to talk about the hand checking rule which was an aversion tactic. He will scurry away from most Magic questions. But the bitter pill is steep with Wilt.

Then you provide a link where he goes in on Wilt which is all he did in the later part of the '70s even made a sexual reference to having Wilt any way he wanted, which I'm sure caused problems with his Mosque. When coming out into the professional world Wilt took Kareem under his wing when he was coming up. To suggest that he was studying somebody else is comical. When the legend Wilt, whose height and game was definitely more similar to Kareem's height and game and was taking him under his wing letting him hold his car and letting him come see him play - not Russell. There early clips of Kareem doing finger rolls.

All of this to say if you think this is about Kareem really patterning his game after Russell instead of away from Wilt, read Kareem more often. Kareem would be trashed harder than ever that year that followed this article.
Wilt is on record saying he didn't teach Kareem a thing about basketball, because he didn't. Kareem took a few of Wilt's moves and hardly ever used them? Big whoop. Guess what Kareem's pet move was, a hook shot. Guess what Bill Russell's pet move was, a hook shot. Guess what move Wilt hardly ever used, a hook shot. Guess who's game revolved around brute strength? Wilt. Guess who's game's revolved around finesse? Russell... AND Kareem.

[Pointguard]

This. Honestly...

You judge players by the era in which they played. For all we know...Russell would have developed completely differently in this era. He might have aged better...he might have been able to gain more muscle with advances in diet/training...etc.

And the opposite. A guy like Jordan might not develop the way he did...in fact, he wouldn't....he couldn't carry the ball and travel as frequently as he did...he wouldnt' get as many iso touches...etc. if he played at the time of Russell.
This is exactly what I'm getting at. A player that works at his game will work til he gets it right. A player that develops his skill will likely do that in any era. A player who doesn't is the one you worry about. Jordan was a maniac with developing his game, and that is why he would excel in any era. Russell chose not to develop his game. He is the question mark.


I could just imagine someone like Pointguard saying all the same shit about Magic in 30 years. How he wasn't a great defender or shooter....how he didn't score enough to be great. In fact, I'm sure people are already saying that shit that didn't watch Magic play.

All the evidence points to Russell being great...and a true master of his craft.
I never said he wasn't great. This is hilarious. I never said he couldn't score. I never said he didn't master his craft. You two are getting caught up in the metaphors and avoiding what I am saying.

Don't tell me what you think the evidence is, that means nothing. Who in your top ten isn't more skilled with the ball than Russell?

You won't answer it I know.

[fpliii]

This is exactly what I'm getting at. A player that works at his game will work til he gets it right. A player that develops his skill will likely do that in any era. A player who doesn't is the one you worry about. Jordan was a maniac with developing his game, and that is why he would excel in any era. Russell chose not to develop his game. He is the question mark.

I never said he wasn't great. This is hilarious. I never said he couldn't score. I never said he didn't master his craft. You two are getting caught up in the metaphors and avoiding what I am saying.

Don't tell me what you think the evidence is, that means nothing. Who in your top ten isn't more skilled with the ball than Russell?

You won't answer it I know.
No disrespect intended, by why are you equating skill with ball-handling/scoring/shooting? If you feel you can be skilled in other facets:

1) In areas of the game other than those three, who is/was more skilled than Russell?
2) Conversely, of those other "top ten" guys, how many of them approach Russell's level of skill in those regards?

If you feel skill is only/mostly those three elements, why do you feel that way?

[Pointguard]

Wilt is on record saying he didn't teach Kareem a thing about basketball, because he didn't. Kareem took a few of Wilt's moves and hardly ever used them? Big whoop. Guess what Kareem's pet move was, a hook shot. Guess what Bill Russell's pet move was, a hook shot. Guess what move Wilt hardly ever used, a hook shot. Guess who's game revolved around brute strength? Wilt. Guess who's game's revolved around finesse? Russell... AND Kareem.
Huh??? When Wilt first came up he had a great bank shot with immaculate touch. And he did dips. He moved fluidly and had great control of his body. He wasn't a Shaq by any measure and was definitely more Duncan. Later as he gained weight and wasn't scoring as much he went to more of a power game but still wasn't a Shaq game. The turn around bank shot was from the same spots of the floor Kareem's hooks were.

So Kareem would go see Wilt play and not study him? You don't think that's natural?

[DMAVS41]

This is exactly what I'm getting at. A player that works at his game will work til he gets it right. A player that develops his skill will likely do that in any era. A player who doesn't is the one you worry about. Jordan was a maniac with developing his game, and that is why he would excel in any era. Russell chose not to develop his game. He is the question mark.

I never said he wasn't great. This is hilarious. I never said he couldn't score. I never said he didn't master his craft. You two are getting caught up in the metaphors and avoiding what I am saying.

Don't tell me what you think the evidence is, that means nothing. Who in your top ten isn't more skilled with the ball than Russell?

You won't answer it I know.

This is absurd.

Who in your top 10 had the kind of career record winning titles at every level like Russell did?

Who had the combination of defense, rebounding, unselfishness, leadership...as Russell did?

You are defining "skill" very narrowly and ignoring how many different ways you can impact the game. Shit, just look at the true impact a guy like Ben Wallace had at his peak...totally arguable that he was a top 10 impact player in the league.

Now imagine a player far more skilled than Wallace, more athletic, just a better player at the things that made Wallace great. Then throw in all the intangibles...etc.

To argue that he needs to be better with the ball in his hands is just absurd.

Again, you assume he wouldn't have developed those things playing in a different era. You have no way of knowing that...so it's pointless to even debate what kind of player Russell would be like today. We have no idea...but we do know he did things virtually no other player has ever done in history...

This is why I hate breaking down players like this. Again...the Magic Johnson example is perfect for this. Some kid right now is probably saying that Lebron is clearly better than Magic because Lebron is a far better defender...which is true by the way. Lebron is a far better defender than Magic, but guess what...they are very similar players in terms of impact...and honestly...I still think Magic was slightly better at playing the game of basketball.

At the very least it's not crazy to say magic was better than Lebron....but why not? Seems like your very narrow way of thinking must lead us to Lebron being clearly better. But the problem with that is...we all know it isn't true!

[hahaitme]

If he said..

MJ, Magic, Bird, Russell:
What about Kareem?

MJ, Magic, Bird, KAJ:
What about Russell?

MJ, Magic, KAJ, Russell:
What about Bird?

Russell, Magic, Bird, KAJ:
MJ stans on suicide watch.

Can't really win hey

[Pointguard]

No disrespect intended, by why are you equating skill with ball-handling/scoring/shooting? If you feel you can be skilled in other facets:

1) In areas of the game other than those three, who is/was more skilled than Russell?
2) Conversely, of those other "top ten" guys, how many of them approach Russell's level of skill in those regards?

If you feel skill is only/mostly those three elements, why do you feel that way?

If you have the ball in your hand and you are skilled with it you can convert it to points.

If you have the ball in your hand and you are skilled with it you can make something out of nothing.

If you have the ball in your hand and you are skilled with it you can make it easier for other players.

If you have the ball in your hand and you are skilled with it you can help unbalance the defense to great extent.

If you have the ball in your hand and you are skilled with it you can be very creative with your attack.

If you have the ball in your hand and you are skilled with it you can have the most control of the game.

This part is a question.
I think with the rest you are saying is related to the Russell statement that if you add up all the minutes of the game when you are not shooting the ball its adds up to about 47 minutes and its about what you do without the ball???

I can't say I know for sure what Russell was doing outside of rebounding and blocking which he did great. I have him ranked very high based on that.

[fpliii]

If you have the ball in your hand and you are skilled with it you can convert it to points.

If you have the ball in your hand and you are skilled with it you can make something out of nothing.

If you have the ball in your hand and you are skilled with it you can make it easier for other players.

If you have the ball in your hand and you are skilled with it you can help unbalance the defense to great extent.

If you have the ball in your hand and you are skilled with it you can be very creative with your attack.

If you have the ball in your hand and you are skilled with it you can have the most control of the game.

This part is a question.
I think with the rest you are saying is related to the Russell statement that if you add up all the minutes of the game when you are not shooting the ball its adds up to about 47 minutes and its about what you do without the ball???

I can't say I know for sure what Russell was doing outside of rebounding and blocking which he did great. I have him ranked very high based on that.
Right, and my question is, isn't play without the ball skill-based as well? Doesn't play on the other end give you comparable advantages?

Rebounding and shot-blocking (plus intimidating) is big, but the Celtics teams also played a pressing defense, so he was involved with that in trapping and making sure the path to the rim wasn't available. He'd also come out to the perimeter to defend the Oscars of the world, and would help his teammates by shading onto their men. He'd throw the outlet on the break, and also pass some from the high post. There's also that line about him knowing/playing all 5 positions in each C's play on offense.

He obviously wasn't a great scorer/shooter, but from everything out there he seems extremely skilled without the ball. With the ball he was a smart passer as well.

[CavaliersFTW]

Right, and my question is, isn't play without the ball skill-based as well? Doesn't play on the other end give you comparable advantages?

Rebounding and shot-blocking (plus intimidating) is big, but the Celtics teams also played a pressing defense, so he was involved with that in trapping and making sure the path to the rim wasn't available. He'd also come out to the perimeter to defend the Oscars of the world, and would help his teammates by shading onto their men. He'd throw the outlet on the break, and also pass some from the high post. There's also that line about him knowing/playing all 5 positions in each C's play on offense.

He obviously wasn't a great scorer/shooter, but from everything out there he seems extremely skilled without the ball. With the ball he was a smart passer as well.
Not to mention a much better ball handler than traditional centers like say, Wilt.

[Pointguard]

This is absurd.

Who in your top 10 had the kind of career record winning titles at every level like Russell did?

Who had the combination of defense, rebounding, unselfishness, leadership...as Russell did?

You are defining "skill" very narrowly and ignoring how many different ways you can impact the game. Shit, just look at the true impact a guy like Ben Wallace had at his peak...totally arguable that he was a top 10 impact player in the league.

Now imagine a player far more skilled than Wallace, more athletic, just a better player at the things that made Wallace great. Then throw in all the intangibles...etc.

To argue that he needs to be better with the ball in his hands is just absurd.

To say somebody is GOAT, better than Jordan without the ball in his hand is absurd.

Name me an intangible we should imagine Jordan didn't have that Russell did?



Again, you assume he wouldn't have developed those things playing in a different era. You have no way of knowing that...so it's pointless to even debate what kind of player Russell would be like today. We have no idea...but we do know he did things virtually no other player has ever done in history...

Tell me something he did that no other player didn't do. Don't tell me what his team did.


This is why I hate breaking down players like this. Again...the Magic Johnson example is perfect for this. Some kid right now is probably saying that Lebron is clearly better than Magic because Lebron is a far better defender...which is true by the way. Lebron is a far better defender than Magic, but guess what...they are very similar players in terms of impact...and honestly...I still think Magic was slightly better at playing the game of basketball.

At the very least it's not crazy to say magic was better than Lebron....but why not? Seems like your very narrow way of thinking must lead us to Lebron being clearly better. But the problem with that is...we all know it isn't true!
We can't assume to fill in the gaps. That's all I'm saying. In every other sport the greats are the guys who mastered the tool they work with. In life its the same way. Please show me guys who are the best in their sport without the tool they work with and I will say you are right. Its not hard. I will end the conversation. If you can't then ask yourself why are you so gullible for Russell.

[fpliii]

Not to mention a much better ball handler than traditional centers like say, Wilt.
Good point. :cheers:

Not to nag you (I promise I won't mention it again, since you're busy and I don't want to distract you, your videos are obviously all tremendous) but I think your Russell mix will turn the most heads and change the most minds of any of your videos. On almost every single sports forum out there, Russell has been the subject of a constant barrage of disparagement since LeBron's Mount Rushmore comment came out. It's frustrating as hell.

[chazzy]

How many people would honestly put Russell on a top 4 Mount Rushmore?

Besides CavaliersFTW's nostalgic, LeBron-hating ass I doubt there'd be a lot of people that would.
What? How many people don't have Russell in their top 4 all time?

[Kingwillball]

Russell
Is overrated by titles he was not a dominant force as a player just a very good team player and piece of puzzle.

[Odinn]

I started a thread several hours ago;

It's gone too far. And I was thinking about not starting a thread about it. But the following thing must be clear;

LeBron listed the most influential players to him. Picking Mount Rushmore is more like picking the most influential ones rather than the greatest ones.

If Shaq declares his Mt. Rushmore I can see him naming Hakeem which Shaq respects the most among all-time great bigs.
fpliii and CavaliersFTW, I respect you guys. But I have to say it, you're just too sensitive in this particular thread.

Tho, I saw some posts of Pointguard via quotes and it's saddening that he just keeps BSing around...

[chazzy]

Russell
Is overrated by titles he was not a dominant force as a player just a very good team player and piece of puzzle.
:facepalm He's arguably the best defensive player of all time. Piece of a puzzle?

[Pointguard]

Right, and my question is, isn't play without the ball skill-based as well? Doesn't play on the other end give you comparable advantages?

Rebounding and shot-blocking (plus intimidating) is big, but the Celtics teams also played a pressing defense, so he was involved with that in trapping and making sure the path to the rim wasn't available. He'd also come out to the perimeter to defend the Oscars of the world, and would help his teammates by shading onto their men. He'd throw the outlet on the break, and also pass some from the high post. There's also that line about him knowing/playing all 5 positions in each C's play on offense.

He obviously wasn't a great scorer/shooter, but from everything out there he seems extremely skilled without the ball. With the ball he was a smart passer as well.
Good one fplii, you made the great point. Have to leave work now. I just moved Russell into my four spot and he might be still climbing.

[fpliii]

I started a thread several hours ago;

fpliii and CavaliersFTW, I respect you guys. But I have to say it, you're just too sensitive in this particular thread.

Tho, I saw some posts of Pointguard via quotes and it's saddening that he just keeps BSing around...
I know I'm probably a bit sensitive about this thread, I've tried to avoid Russell threads in particular, but I don't like faulty or weak arguments being made. I do think there are definitely legitimate anti-Russell arguments to be made, but most people in this thread are trolling, and taking pride in celebrating ignorance.

Just to clarify though, I don't have an issue with LeBron. I do on the other hand take issue with the reaction on this board and other similar forums, piling on Russell and such.

Good one fplii, you made the great point. Have to leave work now. I just moved Russell into my four spot and he might be still climbing.
lol I'm not trying to convince you to move him (apologies if it came off that way), I just wanted to try and see where you're coming from. I don't have a GOAT list personally and don't mind where people are coming from so long as they're informed (which you seem to be). Good talk though.

[DMAVS41]

To say somebody is GOAT, better than Jordan without the ball in his hand is absurd.

Name me an intangible we should imagine Jordan didn't have that Russell did?


Tell me something he did that no other player didn't do. Don't tell me what his team did.

We can't assume to fill in the gaps. That's all I'm saying. In every other sport the greats are the guys who mastered the tool they work with. In life its the same way. Please show me guys who are the best in their sport without the tool they work with and I will say you are right. Its not hard. I will end the conversation. If you can't then ask yourself why are you so gullible for Russell.

I never said Russell was better than MJ. So total strawman there...

I said that your narrow definition of skill doesn't give justice to Russell's real impact.

Again I go back to Magic. What would you say to someone arguing that Lebron is better than Magic because Lebron is twice the defender...or that Hakeem is better than Magic because he's 5 times the defender????

You also can't just ignore what Russell's teams did...they are a product of his impact on the floor.

Pretty much all the evidence points to Russell probably being the best defender ever. Think about that please...think about that impact.

We get too caught up in this "mold" that each player has to fit. Hear it all the time about Dirk. How he doesn't fit the "mold" of the traditional pf...who ****ing cares? It's about the true impact a player has.

Again, narrow definition of skill (as if defense/rebounding isn't a skill) and an under-rating of his impact.

Honestly...I can't remember the last time I saw a list that didn't have Russell in the top 5 all time. I don't know where Kobe and Lebron are getting this notion of for sure Magic/Bird in the top 4 either. MJ for sure. Russell for sure. And then personally it's Magic next for me. Then either Wilt/Duncan/Kareem in any order for me...usually you see Kareem in there.

[TylerOO]

How awkward is it gonna be if LBJ wins a FMVP this year?

[NumberSix]

:facepalm He's arguably the best defensive player of all time. Piece of a puzzle?
Yeah, because YOU took the time to study film and analyze his defense, right? :rolleyes:

[NumberSix]

How awkward is it gonna be if LBJ wins a FMVP this year?
Depends if Bill is still alive by that time..........



That might be a little tasteless.

[FrobeShaw]

too much retard

[NumberSix]

I never said Russell was better than MJ. So total strawman there...

I said that your narrow definition of skill doesn't give justice to Russell's real impact.

Again I go back to Magic. What would you say to someone arguing that Lebron is better than Magic because Lebron is twice the defender...or that Hakeem is better than Magic because he's 5 times the defender????

You also can't just ignore what Russell's teams did...they are a product of his impact on the floor.

Pretty much all the evidence points to Russell probably being the best defender ever. Think about that please...think about that impact.

We get too caught up in this "mold" that each player has to fit. Hear it all the time about Dirk. How he doesn't fit the "mold" of the traditional pf...who ****ing cares? It's about the true impact a player has.

Again, narrow definition of skill (as if defense/rebounding isn't a skill) and an under-rating of his impact.

Honestly...I can't remember the last time I saw a list that didn't have Russell in the top 5 all time. I don't know where Kobe and Lebron are getting this notion of for sure Magic/Bird in the top 4 either. MJ for sure. Russell for sure. And then personally it's Magic next for me. Then either Wilt/Duncan/Kareem in any order for me...usually you see Kareem in there.
Yeah, and all evidence points to Tyler Hansbrough being an all time great when he plays against weak competition. Turns out, level of competition makes a really big difference. You can appear really good in one ecosystem, but not so good when you enter another.

[diamenz]

get raped, Lebron James.

[duskovujosevic]

waiting for pauk's essay

[diamenz]

Whenever Lebron is mentioned you end up looking stupid and more butthurt than Russell. :oldlol:

yet whenever lebron is shat on, you're there to back him up with ur life - you're equally bad.

[Pointguard]

I said that your narrow definition of skill doesn't give justice to Russell's real impact.
:lol Its actually extremely very broad. I'm not just saying shooting, handling, passing - I'm saying creativity, resourcefulness, and defensive adjustments.


Again I go back to Magic. What would you say to someone arguing that Lebron is better than Magic because Lebron is twice the defender...or that Hakeem is better than Magic because he's 5 times the defender????

You also can't just ignore what Russell's teams did...they are a product of his impact on the floor.

Pretty much all the evidence points to Russell probably being the best defender ever. Think about that please...think about that impact.

We are talking Russell, you are seriously not thinking that is something not being considered. But once again, he may not be. Nate Thurmond was the better one on one defender and Aurabach used half time on the NBA to lie to people and say Russell was the only player that blocked shots and kept it in play.


We get too caught up in this "mold" that each player has to fit. Hear it all the time about Dirk. How he doesn't fit the "mold" of the traditional pf...who ****ing cares? It's about the true impact a player has.

Again, narrow definition of skill (as if defense/rebounding isn't a skill) and an under-rating of his impact.

Heeeere we go again. When have I ever said this. I said skill with the pill in hand a half of dozen times already. It rhymes and I guess I shouldn't expect you to get it? Simple question for thenth time. Name me a sport where the player is considered best without great skill with the main piece of equipment in his hand? The conversation doesn't really need to go beyond this point. But the Russell ghost demands that you forget all that you know and makes sense to accommodate the notion that he won so much he must have the greatest magical quality.

[Pointguard]

I started a thread several hours ago;

fpliii and CavaliersFTW, I respect you guys. But I have to say it, you're just too sensitive in this particular thread.

Tho, I saw some posts of Pointguard via quotes and it's saddening that he just keeps BSing around...
You greatly underestimate your friends. I can't BS around with them. They're smart and have tenacity. Its just that with Russell he's hard to measure, prove and establish his influence. The only saddening thing is that you aren't brave enough to say your piece. I know it, you know it, everybody else is beginning to know it.

[Simple Jack]

Heeeere we go again. When have I ever said this. I said skill with the pill in hand a half of dozen times already. It rhymes and I guess I shouldn't expect you to get it? Simple question for thenth time. Name me a sport where the player is considered best without great skill with the main piece of equipment in his hand? The conversation doesn't really need to go beyond this point. But the Russell ghost demands that you forget all that you know and makes sense to accommodate the notion that he won so much he must have the greatest magical quality.

Defensive football players?

[jlip]

Pointguard,

Observe how Oscar Robertson who is on the short list of the most fundamentally sound and skilled players of all time describes what qualifies as basketball skills in his autobiography,

"Knowing how to rub off a defender when you use a pick is a skill. Knowing how to feel a defender with your body and read the court to see where help is coming from is a skill. Knowing how to stay in control, pace yourself, and not use all your energy too early or give away all your tricks, that's a skill. Setting solid picks and knowing how to get yourself open from them; knowing how to hit a guy with a pass the exact moment he frees himself and how to get him the ball in a place and at a time that allows him to shoot in rhythm; getting position low on the post; boxing out; playing solid man to man defense while also knowing where the ball is - those are skills."

Link (http://books.google.com/books?id=fs6IXDF80WEC&pg=PA210&lpg=PA210&dq=%22Knowing+how+to+rub+off+a+defender+when+you+u se+a+pick%22&source=bl&ots=7sKjOXV87U&sig=OGdq5mNPoIv9GZVzpWmKjJRUgQk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8OcCU9XIIcnQ0wHWv4GwDg&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Knowing%20how%20to%20rub%20off%20a%20defender %20when%20you%20use%20a%20pick%22&f=false)

The bold part is significant because it involves having great skill with the main piece of equipment in a player's hand. In light of that take into consideration the following quotes regarding Russell's passing skills:


"You couldn't begin to count the ways we missed him. People think about him in terms of defense and rebounding, but he had been the key to our offense. He made the best pass more than anyone I have ever played with. That mattered to people like Nelson, Howell, Siefried, Sanders, and myself. None of us were one on one players...Russell made us better offensive players. His ability as a passer, pick- setter, and general surmiser of offense has always been over looked."

Hondo: Celtic Man in Motion

[I]

[JamiesChrist]

Those 5' 10" white guys tho

[MichaelCorleone]

Those 5' 6" white guys tho
Fixed.

[Pointguard]

Jlip if you seen me post here I never sell skills short. Kidd could dominate a game without scoring because of his skill of knowing his players and their timing. And Russell was one of the better passing bigmen. I give it to him. When I saw the Youtube clips of him three years ago he wasn't playing like Kidd or could be confused with being effective like Kidd. His team did indeed play more organized defense and passed better than their opponents. I recall that. I do recall opponents sometimes being over cautious of where Russell was.

This where I say Fpliii was good at getting at. Russell was perhaps closer to being ubiquitous on the court as much as anybody. His presence was all over even when he wasn't there - like Mutombo in his prime. I would rather Russell have the ball than him doing back doors on my team. So he, and his ghost, really did play a 40 minute game (as I notice West and Oscar didn't play in fear of his presence - the superstars all probably played their game). Jordan was his equal because his speed and quickness was crazy on defense and if you made a mistake it was over. Magic controlled the game better than anybody, pace and having teams playing Laker ball without knowing it, so those three were operating beyond what was easily visible and had tentacles well beyond what was plain... and into what was psychologically working on opponents.

[Pointguard]

Defensive football players?
Football is the most compartmentalized game I can think of? Quarterbacks, runningbacks and receivers get most of the glory though.

[jstern]

Damm

Indeed.

I don't mind Russell saying that because I've always found that the best of the best have an insane amount of competitiveness. Like real competitiveness that I can't explain.

[fpliii]

Jlip if you seen me post here I never sell skills short. Kidd could dominate a game without scoring because of his skill of knowing his players and their timing. And Russell was one of the better passing bigmen. I give it to him. When I saw the Youtube clips of him three years ago he wasn't playing like Kidd or could be confused with being effective like Kidd. His team did indeed play more organized defense and passed better than their opponents. I recall that. I do recall opponents sometimes being over cautious of where Russell was.

This where I say Fpliii was good at getting at. Russell was perhaps closer to being ubiquitous on the court as much as anybody. His presence was all over even when he wasn't there - like Mutombo in his prime. I would rather Russell have the ball than him doing back doors on my team. So he, and his ghost, really did play a 40 minute game (as I notice West and Oscar didn't play in fear of his presence - the superstars all probably played their game). Jordan was his equal because his speed and quickness was crazy on defense and if you made a mistake it was over. Magic controlled the game better than anybody, pace and having teams playing Laker ball without knowing it, so those three were operating beyond what was easily visible and had tentacles well beyond what was plain... and into what was psychologically working on opponents.
Interesting theory (regarding ghosts and omnipresence on the court).

That's truly terrifying to imagine (especially as an opponent). Who else do you think could qualify? I'd imagine it'd have to be a very short list, or else it wouldn't be as remarkable.

[knicksman]

LMAO this clown including Oscar. Who wants to root for losers unless youre a loser yourself. fcking beta:lol

[pauk]

Way to go Russell Westbrook. :bowdown:

[Flash31]

Can't believe Lebron put Oscar on the Mount Rushmore thing, that guy is a bonafide empty stat padder. I guess Lebron aspires to be that. :confusedshrug:

The Mount Rushmore should be:
The Greatest Player
The Greatest Rivalry in the greatest era (80s) that revitalized the NBA to new heights
The Greatest Winner



So
Greatest Player--Wilt
80s Rivalry-Bird,Magic
Greatest Winner--Russell


so

Wilt,Bill Russell,Larry Bird,Magic Johnson

so what about Kareem?Jordan?

Greatest Winner-Russell
Greatest Player--Wilt
Longest Stretch of Dominance and good to great stats,longevity---Kareem
Greatest Guard,Great Stretch of o and d,Most Famous Player and Huge Winner,2nd in stats----Jordan
GOAT PG,Triple Double Machine----Oscar
Bird,Magic 80s Dominance and stretch if greatness,revitalized the league----Bird,Magic


so you have

Wilt,Russell,Kareem,Jordan,Oscar,Bird,Magic

Thats 7 possible GOAT,MT RUSHMORE Types

AND that's NOT INCLUDING
Shaq,Duncan,Thurmond

[Pointguard]

Interesting theory (regarding ghosts and omnipresence on the court).

That's truly terrifying to imagine (especially as an opponent). Who else do you think could qualify? I'd imagine it'd have to be a very short list, or else it wouldn't be as remarkable.
I said he really did play 40mins a game when I mean to say he was present in opponents head for 40mins a game.

My cornerstone historic art piece would be

Magic (To Give is to Receive) 80's PG
Jordan (Flight) 90's, SG
Wilt (Mythology) 60's, Center
Russell (To be or not to be - Competition)50's PF
Bird (Armed and Dangerous )80's SF.

[AlphaWolf24]

Was really hoping bran would respond with ..."Russell played in weak era"..

or
"Originally Posted by JamiesChrist
Those 5' 6" white guys tho"

Or even..."I could win 11 Rangz too if there was only 7 teams."





disappointing.

[juju151111]

I never said Russell was better than MJ. So total strawman there...

I said that your narrow definition of skill doesn't give justice to Russell's real impact.

Again I go back to Magic. What would you say to someone arguing that Lebron is better than Magic because Lebron is twice the defender...or that Hakeem is better than Magic because he's 5 times the defender????

You also can't just ignore what Russell's teams did...they are a product of his impact on the floor.

Pretty much all the evidence points to Russell probably being the best defender ever. Think about that please...think about that impact.

We get too caught up in this "mold" that each player has to fit. Hear it all the time about Dirk. How he doesn't fit the "mold" of the traditional pf...who ****ing cares? It's about the true impact a player has.

Again, narrow definition of skill (as if defense/rebounding isn't a skill) and an under-rating of his impact.

Honestly...I can't remember the last time I saw a list that didn't have Russell in the top 5 all time. I don't know where Kobe and Lebron are getting this notion of for sure Magic/Bird in the top 4 either. MJ for sure. Russell for sure. And then personally it's Magic next for me. Then either Wilt/Duncan/Kareem in any order for me...usually you see Kareem in there.
I wouldn't Argue with someone who thinks Hakeem is better then Magic. Hakeem was better then Magic, Magic had the better career/teammates/Organization Facts.

[juju151111]

:lol Its actually extremely very broad. I'm not just saying shooting, handling, passing - I'm saying creativity, resourcefulness, and defensive adjustments.


We are talking Russell, you are seriously not thinking that is something not being considered. But once again, he may not be. Nate Thurmond was the better one on one defender and Aurabach used half time on the NBA to lie to people and say Russell was the only player that blocked shots and kept it in play.


Heeeere we go again. When have I ever said this. I said skill with the pill in hand a half of dozen times already. It rhymes and I guess I shouldn't expect you to get it? Simple question for thenth time. Name me a sport where the player is considered best without great skill with the main piece of equipment in his hand? The conversation doesn't really need to go beyond this point. But the Russell ghost demands that you forget all that you know and makes sense to accommodate the notion that he won so much he must have the greatest magical quality.
:applause: exactly which is why I rarely discuss Russell. Anytime you mention his offensive flaws... They bring up some intangibles BS and his titles. His titles were team efforts in a league just starting. He not winning 11 chips in the modern era with new rules ,trades , caps, more teams etc...

[cltcfn2924]

Russell is butthurt... and doesn't he mean "WE" won, since it's a team game and all. He's not a top 10 player all-time, let alone a top 4.


He is the GOAT. What are you 12 years old?

[Bigsmoke]

why these old ****** always act like bitches whenever LeBron say something :coleman:

[cltcfn2924]

That is just so disrespectful to the game. So basketball is the only sport where you don't need skill to be the best? One of the few things on the planet you don't need skill to excel in. You are only insulting the game when you say something like that. It says that anybody can come along and be the best in the game. You work on your craft you become better at it. The distance between two players usually isn't great at all as any ten different fans will usually have ten different top tens. But if one player is very skilled, and the other isn't, is there every really a conversation.

Whatever you take for granted you pay for it. And Russell rested on his laurels. MJ worked at his game tirelessly. And for every natural advantage you name me that Russell has I will most definitely name you two that Jordan has. Lets say Jordan didn't have to do develop skills. Did it make him better or worse? Every player could use it in every sport or endeavor in life.


You're on the edge of lunacy. Nobody worked harder than Russell. Lmao homer.

[cltcfn2924]

Shaq/Duncan
MJ
KAJ
Bird
Hakeem
Lebron
Kobe
Magic
Wilt

Russell not in my top ten.

Then again, you don't matter.

[cltcfn2924]

Russell is bitter.
Can't put this any other way. Lefraud went out of his way to dis Russell with the # 6 thing, now goes out of his way on this matter. So Russell spanks him and all you 12-18 year olds get your panties in a wad. 11 pro rings, 1 Olympic ring and 2 college rings = GOAT.

[cltcfn2924]

How does one pattern their game off Bill Russell? Hes a defensive and rebounding beast, master of intangibles and team play. He wasnt flash..Pointguard, by your definition of greatness, Allen Iverson is a top 5 GOAT candidate :oldlol:


Kids want to play like whats in style.. what looks cool. Crossovers, dunks, fadeaways.. thats why Dr. J, Jordan, Kobe etc. are the ones you see kids copying and trying to be like.

Who patterns their game off of a guy like Russell or Rodman? Thats just hard work lol.. no oohing and ahhing over it but its what wins. Such a arbitrary and unimportant way of judging something. Has absolutely nothing to do with the impact they had.

Just for kicks how does everybody forget Wes Unseld? Box out, rebound and outlet. He made a career of it, yet it was just part of Russells' game. You all sell him short and you never saw him play. How is that?

[BigNBAfan]

:roll:

[TommyGriffin]

LeBron is a good one to talk about the future of the year. The fact is that the two sides have to go out with the new version and the other side is the most important.

[DoctorP]

http://www.recaption.com/uploads/170474fe838dd1a9ad.jpg


matter fact i call flat out bull shit on this story........

:oldlol:

[stalkerforlife]

Bill Russell to LeBron James during the pre-game (per Craig Sager):

"Thank you for leaving me off your Mount Rushmore. Im glad you did. Basketball is a team game. Its not for individual honors. I won back-to-back state championships in highschool. Back-to-back NCAA championships in college. I won an NBA championship my first year in the league. An NBA championship my last year. 9 in between. And that, Mr. James, is etched in stone."

:applause:

:bowdown:

Damn. Russell doesn't even want to be respected by Bran; takes it as a slight if he is.

:roll: