Kobe is doomed to fall short of MJ

[Derivative]

Maybe the basketball gods don't like how Kobe tries so hard to match the GOAT, and purposesly break him before he can match the GOAT.

After he won his 5th ring, Kobe and many other were expecting to match MJ's all 6 ring record. But he fell short by playing like shit and got swept by the Mavs.

Now people are claiming Kobe should pass MJ's alltime scoring record, and it's highly likely that's Kobe's primary goal now. And now he is always injured preventing him from playing.

Kobe is like Icarus, always trying to fly too high, but ultimately get burned and fall down.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

http://i.imgur.com/qaB7wP4.jpg

[JohnFreeman]

He was falling short of MJ anyway, 1 MVP and only 2 FMVPS? Come on cuh

[MichaelCorleone]

There's a thread saying Kobe won't be back so soon and you come up with this sh1t of a thread?:facepalm

Leave it, I hate Kobe too, but just leave the man alone.

[Eric Cartman]

Kobe is like Icarus, always trying to fly too high, but ultimately get burned and fall down.

At least Icarus didn't rape anyone.

[Derivative]

At least Icarus didn't rape anyone.


I knew it, you are a kobe hater disguising as a kobe stan

[MichaelCorleone]

Stick to this thread:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=326333

[IncarceratedBob]

Is it such a bad thing to never be as good as the greatest of all time?

[Black and White]

OP boring as usual

[fragokota]

At least Icarus didn't rape anyone.

:lol :lol :lol

[SamuraiSWISH]

STFU already. Like a damn broken record. You suck at posting, ISH hates you. Stating the blatantly obvious too. Kobe's fallen way short of MJ multiple times. 2004 - 2008 being the serious deal breaker of him not being on Jordan's ultimate level, but just a notch below.

[Eric Cartman]

I knew it, you are a kobe hater disguising as a kobe stan

I love Kobe, always have, but one thing I love more than Kobe is comic relief.

[guy]

Didn't think Kobe would surpass Jordan in rings, but I thought for sure Kobe would surpass Jordan in points. Pretty crazy that that might not happen.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

STFU already. Like a damn broken record. You suck at posting, ISH hates you. Stating the blatantly obvious too. Kobe's fallen way short of MJ multiple times. 2004 - 2008 being the serious deal breaker of him not being on Jordan's ultimate level, but just a notch below.

True that when Kobe couldn't get it done against a couple of the greatest defenses of all time we all knew he couldn't compare to Jordan's dominance of creampuff defenses. :lol

[longtime lurker]

Why hasn't this poster been banned yet? Reported.

[chazzy]

3) No matter what, stop and think and make sure that your new topic is honest and INTELLIGENT. Always try to raise the discussion to a better level than it already was!
..

[JohnFreeman]

True that when Kobe couldn't get it done against a couple of the greatest defenses of all time we all knew he couldn't compare to Jordan's dominance of creampuff defenses. :lol
:biggums:

[CelticBaller]

Agreed

[Eric Cartman]

http://rebel-performance.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/rickybobby.jpg

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:biggums:

2008
Boston: 1st in DEF rating, 90.3 OPPG (2nd) & .419 opponent FG% (1st)

2004
Detroit: 2nd in DEF rating, 84.3 OPPG (2nd) & .413 opponent FG% (2nd)

vs

Jordan

1991
Lakers: 5th in DEF rating, 99.6 OPPG (2nd) & .462 opponent FG% (8th)

1992
Blazers: 3rd in DEF rating, 104.1 OPPG (12th) & .454 opponent FG% (3rd)

1993
Phoenix: 9th in DEF rating, 106.7 OPPG (18th) & .479 opponent FG% (17th)

1996
Seattle: 2nd in DEF rating, 96.7 OPPG (8th) & .438 opponent FG% (2nd)

1997
Utah: 9th in DEF rating, 94.3 OPPG (8th) & .438 opponent FG% (6th)

1998
Utah: 17th in DEF rating, 94.4 OPPG (13th) & .439 opponent FG% (9th)

:confusedshrug:

[Knoe Itawl]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-i4hFf9V9HKQ/UUlPzjR_l_I/AAAAAAAAARA/SEAvBRjfX88/s1600/Flight%2Bof%2BIcarus.jpg

[Prometheus]

2008
Boston: 1st in DEF rating, 90.3 OPPG (2nd) & .419 opponent FG% (1st)

2004
Detroit: 2nd in DEF rating, 84.3 OPPG (2nd) & .413 opponent FG% (2nd)

vs

Jordan

1991
Lakers: 5th in DEF rating, 99.6 OPPG (2nd) & .462 opponent FG% (8th)

1992
Blazers: 3rd in DEF rating, 104.1 OPPG (12th) & .454 opponent FG% (3rd)

1993
Phoenix: 9th in DEF rating, 106.7 OPPG (18th) & .479 opponent FG% (17th)

1996
Seattle: 2nd in DEF rating, 96.7 OPPG (8th) & .438 opponent FG% (2nd)

1997
Utah: 9th in DEF rating, 94.3 OPPG (8th) & .438 opponent FG% (6th)

1998
Utah: 17th in DEF rating, 94.4 OPPG (13th) & .439 opponent FG% (9th)

:confusedshrug:

Wow, painstaking research. I didn't realize they only played in the NBA Finals; all this time I thought each post-season consisted of four rounds. Thank you for showing me the light. :bowdown:

[tpols]

Wow, painstaking research. I didn't realize they only played in the NBA Finals; all this time I thought each post-season consisted of four rounds. Thank you for showing me the light. :bowdown:

lol Kobe dominated in the rounds prior.. youre making his points for him

[JohnFreeman]

2008
Boston: 1st in DEF rating, 90.3 OPPG (2nd) & .419 opponent FG% (1st)

2004
Detroit: 2nd in DEF rating, 84.3 OPPG (2nd) & .413 opponent FG% (2nd)

vs

Jordan

1991
Lakers: 5th in DEF rating, 99.6 OPPG (2nd) & .462 opponent FG% (8th)

1992
Blazers: 3rd in DEF rating, 104.1 OPPG (12th) & .454 opponent FG% (3rd)

1993
Phoenix: 9th in DEF rating, 106.7 OPPG (18th) & .479 opponent FG% (17th)

1996
Seattle: 2nd in DEF rating, 96.7 OPPG (8th) & .438 opponent FG% (2nd)

1997
Utah: 9th in DEF rating, 94.3 OPPG (8th) & .438 opponent FG% (6th)

1998
Utah: 17th in DEF rating, 94.4 OPPG (13th) & .439 opponent FG% (9th)

:confusedshrug:

Detroit 91 was pretty good..

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Wow, painstaking research. I didn't realize they only played in the NBA Finals; all this time I thought each post-season consisted of four rounds. Thank you for showing me the light. :bowdown:

Jordan faced a couple of pretty good defenses in the playoffs (sub 100) though not comparable to the 04 and 08 teams Kobe faced. He shot around 40% against them. :confusedshrug:

[SamuraiSWISH]

lol Kobe dominated in the rounds prior.. youre making his points for him
He didn't dominate at Jordan's level in those rounds, either. MJ faced great defenses, in his own conference, and in the Finals.

Really? That's all you have to say, though? ... Figures you being a gigantic Kobe stan.

You agree with YMF's known asinine DEF rating theory? A statistical number which doesn't account for the other side of the ball, a team's overall quality and context like deliberately slowed pace with less possessions to lessen that number to sub 100 levels like most early 2000s teams with their intentional slowed pace. Using the DEF rating numbers, the 2002 Wizards were a better defense than the '91 - '93 Bulls.

That's stupid.

He posted the defenses Jordan faced. In 1991 faced the Lakers in the Finals who were 5th ranked. In 1992 he faced the Knicks who were ranked 1st, then the Blazers in the Finals were 3rd ranked. In 1993 faced the Knicks who were ranked 1st. Then the Sonics in the 1996 Finals who were ranked 2nd.

[Prometheus]

Okay, let's play a game. To Yao Ming's Foot: let's say your assertion that Kobe played superior defenses is correct...

The fact that you're proposing this makes me wonder...

Do you believe Kobe is better than Jordan was?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Okay, let's play a game. To Yao Ming's Foot: let's say your assertion that Kobe played superior defenses is correct...

The fact that you're proposing this makes me wonder...

Do you believe Kobe is better than Jordan was?
Of course he does. He just lacks the fortitude to say it, because it destroys his credibility. So he clings to this ridiculous DEF rating theory like glue. I'm fairly certain he's KB42PAH or one of his known idiotic apostles. He's of these two clowns school of thought:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz9xi_BwBSk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nepmd2ygMK4

[Le Shaqtus]

Every player is doomed to fall short to MJ.

[Prometheus]

Of course he does. He just lacks the fortitude to say it, because it destroys his credibility. So he clings to this ridiculous DEF rating theory like glue. I'm fairly certain he's KB42PAH or one of his known idiotic apostles. He's of these two clowns school of thought:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz9xi_BwBSk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nepmd2ygMK4

There's no way. No one is stupid enough to really believe Kobe > Jordan. NO ONE... Except maybe GOATbe... speaking of which, I haven't seen him in a while, thank the ****ing lord. Any idea what happened to that clown?

[SamuraiSWISH]

There's no way. No one is stupid enough to really believe Kobe > Jordan. NO ONE... Except maybe GOATbe... speaking of which, I haven't seen him in a while, thank the ****ing lord. Any idea what happened to that clown?
No but YMF is a known delusional clown. Just like KB42PAH, and that other "Loon" from the other youtube link posted.

Always on ISH trying to troll saying Jordan faced weak competition, hyping up Kobe's competition as a constant excuse for his failures not his success.

If Kobe was actually better than Jordan, he would've performed better in the regular season, playoff, and Finals. Something he never did.

Typical Laker / Kobe stan drivel. Kobe desperately tried to copy MJ's entire game, persona, look, and mannerisms based off Jordan. There is no shame if they just admitted he's a lesser version of Jordan.

Defensive Rating

2004 Bulls 103.4
1991 Bulls 105.2

Clearly the 2004 Bulls were the superior defense.

:oldlol:

[Prometheus]

No but YMF is a known delusional clown. Just like KB42PAH, and that other "Loon" from the other youtube link posted.

Always on ISH trying to troll saying Jordan faced weak competition, hyping up Kobe's competition as a constant excuse for his failures not his success.

If Kobe was actually better than Jordan, he would've performed better in the regular season, playoff, and Finals. Something he never did.

Typical Laker / Kobe stan drivel. Kobe desperately tried to copy MJ's entire game, persona, look, and mannerisms based off Jordan. There is no shame if they just admitted he's a lesser version of Jordan.

Defensive Rating

2004 Bulls 103.4
1991 Bulls 105.2

Clearly the 2004 Bulls were the superior defense.

:oldlol:

Bolded here is the shortest, most efficient ether ever delivered. I applaud your efforts. :applause:

[Jacks3]

Kobe's game is really nothing like Jordan's stylistically, and everybody in history falls short of Jordan.

Another dumb thread.

[moe94]

Kobe's game is really nothing like Jordan's stylistically.
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/mlp/images/4/4a/Dolls_Laughing.gif

Jesus Christ

I done heard it all now.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kobe's game is really nothing like Jordan's stylistically
:oldlol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v27Hk5OIe-k

He tried to be like everything Jordan stylistically.

Kobe copied 90% of what he actually could in regards to Jordan. Couldn't imitate the basketball IQ, the heart to attack and ability to finish at the rim consistently. Can't imitate shot selection, or off the ball, catch and shoot ability.

So to off set all that, and increase volume scoring ... Kobe expanded his range, and focused on that 3 ball. Only real difference. Jordan was reluctant to shoot that shot because it decreases efficiency, and bails defenses out.

[tpols]

He didn't dominate at Jordan's level in those rounds, either. MJ faced great defenses, in his own conference, and in the Finals.

I never said he did. You're using 2 Finals series to dismiss Kobe's career when those two series featured defenses the like of which Jordan never saw. And most importantly never saw in the Finals.

Jordan would not have been able to go off like he did where he made his name if he was playing those level defenses.. the Jazz and Suns in particular are a joke in comparison. It would be like if MJ saw knicks in the Finals.. his numbers would be much worse.. which they were. Because the knicks were a dominant defensive opponent.


Suns d-rating 106.7.. Knicks d-rating 99.7

MJ shoots 49% against the suns and 40% against the Knicks.. Defensive efficiency had nothing to do with it doe lol

[Prometheus]

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/mlp/images/4/4a/Dolls_Laughing.gif

Jesus Christ

I done heard it all now.

YOU BACK?!? :hammertime:

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/64/6494d9a65195279d35717e6d97375037c34660e076011dc05b cc67011a212df0.jpg

[Prometheus]

Kobe's game is really nothing like Jordan's stylistically, and everybody in history falls short of Jordan.

Another dumb thread.

For real though, thank you. Dom Mazzetti last person to make me laugh like this.

[moe94]

For real though, thank you. Dom Mazzetti last person to make me laugh like this.

What possessed him to say that? I've never seen anyone deny it before. It's surreal. :biggums:

[Prometheus]

What possessed him to say that? I've never seen anyone deny it before. It's surreal. :biggums:

I think it was...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snHfdV3gw9Q

[Prometheus]

I never said he did. You're using 2 Finals series to dismiss Kobe's career when those two series featured defenses the like of which Jordan never saw. And most importantly never saw in the Finals.

Jordan would not have been able to go off like he did where he made his name if he was playing those level defenses.. the Jazz and Suns in particular are a joke in comparison. It would be like if MJ saw knicks in the Finals.. his numbers would be much worse.. which they were. Because the knicks were a dominant defensive opponent.


Suns d-rating 106.7.. Knicks d-rating 99.7

MJ shoots 49% against the suns and 40% against the Knicks.. Defensive efficiency had nothing to do with it doe lol

DAWG YOU TALKIN ABOUT NUMBERS. THE BULLS BEAT THE KNICKS. THE CELTICS AND PISTONS BEAT THE LAKERS. SIT THE **** DOWN.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I never said he did. You're using 2 Finals series to dismiss Kobe's career when those two series featured defenses the like of which Jordan never saw. And most importantly never saw in the Finals.
Which isn't true. Jordan faced #1, #2, and #3 defenses just like Kobe. Performed better too. It just wasn't in the arbitrary round of the Finals. In 2004 Kobe was playing with a superior player to distract defenses in Shaq, and he still performed horribly.


Defensive efficiency had nothing to do with it doe lol
Comparing the numerical ranking from year to year, let alone era to era is dumb. All that matters is how they ranked compared to that year's league average amongst contemporaries.

Like I said, the 2004 Bulls had a better DEF rating than the 1991 Bulls. That makes total sense doe to anyone who watched both of those teams play.

Variables play a huge role in that efficiency rating. For instance, the early 2000s and their horrendous drag 'em out half court basketball that killed league interest, due to lack of quality offensive basketball skill sets. No one could make jumpers anymore, ball movement was horrendous. ISO ball slowed pace down to a crawl.



DAWG YOU TALKIN ABOUT NUMBERS. THE BULLS BEAT THE KNICKS. THE CELTICS AND PISTONS BEAT THE LAKERS. SIT THE **** DOWN.
Exactly. MJ's play never prevented his team from winning. He never played with Shaq demanding massive, game shattering defensive attention. The roles were entirely different.

Kobe stans always with their red carpet of excuses.

:oldlol:

[tpols]

DAWG YOU TALKIN ABOUT NUMBERS. THE BULLS BEAT THE KNICKS. THE CELTICS AND PISTONS BEAT THE LAKERS. SIT THE **** DOWN.

I know the Bulls beat the Knicks.. but when the knicks were at their best defensively, statistically Jordan's numbers were far less efficient than when he faced teams with much worse defensive efficiencies.

That doesnt mean kobe>jordan.. but its pretty much a fact Kobe faced much tougher finals opponents than Jordan.. thus when a Jordan stan brings up 2004 and 2008 finals its kind of funny, since Jordan himself struggled against defenses that were close to that level of defensive efficiency.. he just didnt see them in the Finals.

[Prometheus]

I know the Bulls beat the Knicks.. but when the knicks were at their best defensively, statistically Jordan's numbers were far less efficient than when he faced teams with much worse defensive efficiencies.

That doesnt mean kobe>jordan.. but its pretty much a fact Kobe faced much tougher finals opponents than Jordan.. thus when a Jordan stan brings up 2004 and 2008 finals its kind of funny, since Jordan himself struggled against defenses that were close to that level of defensive efficiency.. he just didnt see them in the Finals.

You know what, I overreacted. You're chill about this. Play on.

[Jacks3]

:oldlol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v27Hk5OIe-k

He tried to be like everything Jordan stylistically.


No, not really. Kobe is a shooter who can also slash.

Prime Jordan was a slasher who could shoot.

Stylistically, someone like 06 or 09 Wade is far more similar.

Prime Kobe played nothing like Mike. He was much more similar to guys like T-Mac.

[moe94]

No, not really. Kobe is a shooter who can also slash.

Prime Jordan was a slasher who could shoot.

Stylistically, someone like 06 or 09 Wade is far more similar.

Prime Kobe played nothing like Mike. He was much more similar to guys like T-Mac.

Kobe's game is a cheap version of second 3peat Jordan. Wade plays like the young Jordan.

[Prometheus]

Kobe's game is a cheap version of second 3peat Jordan. Wade plays like the young Jordan.

I recognize this... it seems so familiar...

Oh yeah, the truth. That's what this is.

Good call moseph.

[zoom17]

It's sad kobe is going out like this.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kobe v.s. #1 ranked 2008 Celtics defense

26 ppg, 5 rpg, 5 apg, 3 spg on 41%

Jordan v.s. #1 ranked 1993 Knicks defense

32 ppg, 6 rpg, 7 apg, 3 spg on 40%

Kobe v.s. #1 ranked 2004 Pistons defense

23 ppg, 3 rpg, 4 apg on 38%

Jordan v.s. #2 ranked 1992 Knicks defense

31 ppg, 6 rpg, 4 apg on 48%

Objectively, Jordan performed better. Period. In both of his rounds he was the focus of the opposition's defense. Where as Kobe was the focus for just one of those series.

[tpols]

Variables play a huge role in that efficiency rating. For instance, the early 2000s and their horrendous drag 'em out half court basketball that killed league interest, due to lack of quality offensive basketball skill sets. No one could make jumpers anymore, ball movement was horrendous. ISO ball slowed pace down to a crawl.
:
So what you're saying is pace can have an effect on the quality of defenses? I agree.

If I tell my team to run a shooter like rip hamilton around a million screens and pound the ball out every possession it's going to drag out the game and wear teams down for when they have to play offense.. because theyre stuck on defense for so long they cant run n gun for easy points. Thats a strategy and it makes it much tougher to produce efficient offense.

As compared to sprinting down the floor and launching a 3 within 6 seconds.. you didnt make them work on defense, and you gave them the ball right back ready to run(even if you made the shot).


Slower pace of course is more conducive to dominating a game defensively.

[Jacks3]

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/mlp/images/4/4a/Dolls_Laughing.gif

Jesus Christ

I done heard it all now.
Watch full games of prime Jordan and Bryant and you'll see it.

They're not at all that similar.

Jordan did a lot more off-ball work and was more of a slasher.

Kobe is almost exclusively on-ball and is a jump-shooter.

So how are they similar in terms of actual playing style? Its like saying prime Wade and Kobe were similar.

[Jacks3]

Kobe's game is a cheap version of second 3peat Jordan.
lol


Wade plays like the young Jordan.
yes, his game is a lot closer to prime jordan, and nobody thinks wade and bryant play the game the same way.

[SamuraiSWISH]

yes, his game is a lot closer to prime jordan, and nobody thinks wade and bryant play the game the same way.
Prime Jordan is a combo of prime Wade and prime Kobe.

You're seriously insinuating Kobe isn't stylistically like MJ? He didn't clearly pattern his whole mid range game off Jordan? He doesn't resemble Mike at all to you? The rest of humanity is making stuff up?

[Derivative]

No, not really. Kobe is a shooter who can also slash.

Prime Jordan was a slasher who could shoot.

Stylistically, someone like 06 or 09 Wade is far more similar.

Prime Kobe played nothing like Mike. He was much more similar to guys like T-Mac.


2nd peat jordan was also priary shooter

btw jordan at any age after 26 was a better midrange shooter than kobe

[Derivative]

There's a thread saying Kobe won't be back so soon and you come up with this sh1t of a thread?:facepalm

Leave it, I hate Kobe too, but just leave the man alone.

lol look at how my thread turned out, this is why i am the greatest poster of all time

[SamuraiSWISH]

Slower pace of course is more conducive to dominating a game defensively.
But would you say the early 2000s Bulls are truly a better defense than the early 90's Bulls?

[Jacks3]

Yeah, because Jordan is the only player in history with a great mid-range game.

:rolleyes:

They have some similarities, but no, they're not all that close in terms of how they actually play. I already explained why.

And I'm talking about the prime Jordan versions.

Obviously Kobe's game is closer to the 2nd 3-peat Jordan "stylistically".

[SpecialQue]

Who gives a shit? Nobody aside from trolls honestly thought Kobe was ever going to be as good as MJ. He tried and wound up one of the greatest players of all time...so what's the fvcking problem?

[tpols]

But would you say the early 2000s Bulls are truly a better defense than the early 90's Bulls?

All im sayin is that if you're team is posting a 90 something d-rating, they are probably on another level defensively. I dont think its a coincidence that Jordan's numbers go up and down largely based on the defensive efficiency of his opponent.


Even a team like the 80s pistons.. great defensive team, but they played at a 94 pace. 04 Pistons played at a crawling 87.

You dont think a dramatic decrease in pace is going to make the game more physical, and tough to score on? Less running, more stationary halfcourt play.. its tougher and harder to score.

[knicksman]

at least hes falling short of MJ than LeBron falling short of wilt.:lol

[SamuraiSWISH]

All im sayin is that if you're team is posting a 90 something d-rating, they are probably on another level defensively. I dont think its a coincidence that Jordan's numbers go up and down largely based on the defensive efficiency of his opponent.


Even a team like the 80s pistons.. great defensive team, but they played at a 94 pace. 04 Pistons played at a crawling 87.

You dont think a dramatic decrease in pace is going to make the game more physical, and tough to score on? Less running, more stationary halfcourt play.. its tougher and harder to score.
Sure, but don't you think also having to play defense against great offenses can wear one out for the other end of the floor as well? Having to actively play both sides of the ball?

Which is why a team that can bring it equally on both sides of the ball is a better actual team, or challenge. Which trumps "DEF rating" alone.

Shouldn't it be objectively easier to play against a great defense when you're not being the focus of said defense ... when the most dominant force in the game is the primary concern, and makes the game easier for all his teammates just with his presence near the rim?

We can do this all day. When comparing the actual DEF efficiency number across eras, it makes NO SENSE. The early 2000s Bulls aren't a better defense than the early 90's Bulls, or late 80's Detroit Pistons even though their efficiency number suggests that.

[Prometheus]

Sure, but don't you think also having to play defense against great offenses can wear one out for the other end of the floor as well? Having to actively play both sides of the ball?

Which is why a team that can bring it equally on both sides of the ball is a better actual team, or challenge. Which trumps "DEF rating" alone.

Shouldn't it be objectively easier to play against a great defense when you're not being the focus of said defense ... when the most dominant force in the game is the primary concern, and makes the game easier for all his teammates just with his presence near the rim?

We can do this all day. When comparing the actual DEF efficiency number across eras, it makes NO SENSE. The early 2000s Bulls aren't a better defense than the early 90's Bulls, or late 80's Detroit Pistons even though their efficiency number suggests that.

If you're talking about 2004, (even though I'm generally on your side in this debate) you're dead wrong here. The Pistons played Shaq honest with single-coverage and swarmed the shit out of Kobe. Kobe then proceeded to chuck the **** out of the entire series and ruined any chance the Lakers had of winning... which in the end helps to support our side of the debate, but I feel it was worth pointing out that Shaq was not the focus of the Pistons' defense in 2004.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

If you're talking about 2004, (even though I'm generally on your side in this debate) you're dead wrong here. The Pistons played Shaq honest with single-coverage and swarmed the shit out of Kobe. Kobe then proceeded to chuck the **** out of the entire series and ruined any chance the Lakers had of winning... which in the end helps to support our side of the debate, but I feel it was worth pointing out that Shaq was not the focus of the Pistons' defense in 2004.

Little known fact Kobe was the 2nd most efficient Laker for that entire series. That's not chucking. That's incredible defense. :confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Sure, but don't you think also having to play defense against great offenses can wear one out for the other end of the floor as well? Having to actively play both sides of the ball?

Which is why a team that can bring it equally on both sides of the ball is a better actual team, or challenge. Which trumps "DEF rating" alone.

Shouldn't it be objectively easier to play against a great defense when you're not being the focus of said defense ... when the most dominant force in the game is the primary concern, and makes the game easier for all his teammates just with his presence near the rim?

We can do this all day. When comparing the actual DEF efficiency number across eras, it makes NO SENSE. The early 2000s Bulls aren't a better defense than the early 90's Bulls, or late 80's Detroit Pistons even though their efficiency number suggests that.

If it doesn't make sense to compare team defensive efficiency across eras then it sure as hell doesn't make sense to compare individual offensive efficiency across eras but that sure as hell as never stops Jordan mythologists circle jerking about videogame numbers during the creampuff era of basketball.

:oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Kobe v.s. #1 ranked 2008 Celtics defense

26 ppg, 5 rpg, 5 apg, 3 spg on 41%

Jordan v.s. #1 ranked 1993 Knicks defense

32 ppg, 6 rpg, 7 apg, 3 spg on 40%

Kobe v.s. #1 ranked 2004 Pistons defense

23 ppg, 3 rpg, 4 apg on 38%

Jordan v.s. #2 ranked 1992 Knicks defense

31 ppg, 6 rpg, 4 apg on 48%

Objectively, Jordan performed better. Period. In both of his rounds he was the focus of the opposition's defense. Where as Kobe was the focus for just one of those series.

Sorry boss identical numbers against similarly ranked teams neglect the fact that the entire league was scoring with high efficiency during Jordan's prime. That's league wide stats inflation.

It's like telling me getting a B on the hardest exam in a freshman level psychology class is the same as getting a B on the hardest exam in a graduate level organic chemistry class.

[SamuraiSWISH]

during the creampuff era of basketball.
Explain why to you it's the cream puff era of basketball?

[sportjames23]

Is it such a bad thing to never be as good as the greatest of all time?


*poses this question to Lebron fans*

[sportjames23]

Explain why to you it's the cream puff era of basketball?


YMF projecting like he always does.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Explain why to you it's the cream puff era of basketball?

League average off/def efficiency in 04: 102.9
League average off/def efficiency in 92: 108.2

[KyleKong]

Kobe is doomed to fall short of 12 other players.

[SamuraiSWISH]

League average off/def efficiency in 04: 102.9
League average off/def efficiency in 92: 108.2
So Jordan faced weaker competition, Kobe faced better competition. Thus, Kobe w/ weaker production > Jordan w/ superior production. Is this what you want to say? Why is it like pulling teeth for you to speak your mind.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So Jordan faced weaker competition, Kobe faced better competition. Thus, Kobe w/ weaker production > Jordan w/ superior production. Is this what you want to say? Why is it like pulling teeth for you to speak your mind.

Why is that to debate me you have to create some sort of strawman argument? I'm not shy. I say exactly what I mean and can support. If you can't find something to debate based on the words I actually wrote then let the truth flow over you and go to bed.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Why is that to debate me you have to create some sort of strawman argument? I'm not shy. I say exactly what I mean and can support. If you can't find something to debate based on the words I actually wrote then let the truth flow over you and go to bed.
It's not straw man. I'm really just asking you. Your defensive nature over it tells me it is your belief though.

You called Jordan's era cupcake because you threw out a number with a 6 point difference between two season ... then bounce with vague, passive-aggressive intentions.

No one said Kobe's era was cupcake. No one is slinging insults to down grade one player in favor of another. No era is particularly cupcake. It's all relative believe it or not.

MJ was more successful in his era, than Kobe was to his. It's that simple. I know that hurts as a staunch Kobe apostle. But it's reality. MJ is, and always will be better.

All the excuses in the world for why Kobe sucks in the Finals, or average at best, can't explain why Jordan was simply the better player by all objective measures in the regular, post season, and Finals.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

It's not straw man. I'm really just asking you. Your defensive nature over it tells me it is your belief though.

You called Jordan's era cupcake because you threw out a number with a 6 point difference between two season ... then bounce with vague, passive-aggressive intentions.

No one said Kobe's era was cupcake. No one is slinging insults to down grade one player in favor of another. No era is particularly cupcake. It's all relative believe it or not.

MJ was more successful in his era, than Kobe was to his. It's that simple. I know that hurts as a staunch Kobe apostle. But it's reality. MJ is, and always will be better.

All the excuses in the world for why Kobe sucks in the Finals, or average at best, can't explain why Jordan was simply the better player by all objective measures in the regular, post season, and Finals.

Do you realize how awesome of a player Kobe would have to be for him to put up better numbers than Michael Jordan considering the fact the defenses he faced in the regular season, playoffs and Finals were objectively so much better at limiting offensive efficiency in their time?

Once again you want to prop up offensive efficiency while ignore defensive efficiency. You can't help yourself. Such mental gymnastics.. :biggums:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

How is this for passive aggressive and vague?

Jordan mythologists routinely overrate Jordan's offensive numbers because they falsely equate those numbers to basketball of the last 15 years. This is especially true when they compare his numbers to Kobe Bryant who happened to face elite defenses in the Finals AND played a large amount of his playoffs career during which league wide scoring and efficiency was down (about 98-04).

Do I need to make it any more clear for you?

[Nevaeh]

Do you realize how awesome of a player Kobe would have to be for him to put up better numbers than Michael Jordan considering the fact the defenses he faced in the regular season, playoffs and Finals were objectively so much better at limiting offensive efficiency in their time?

Once again you want to prop up offensive efficiency while ignore defensive efficiency. You can't help yourself. Such mental gymnastics.. :biggums:

Ok then, who was the better defensive player between Kobe and Jordan, based on efficiency?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/confusedshrug.gif

[Angel Face]

Yao Ming's Foot crying in TV after seeing Kobe Bryant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crp2Nk2VMn8

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Ok then, who was the better defensive player between Kobe and Jordan, based on efficiency?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/confusedshrug.gif

I'm not aware any reliable metrics measuring individual defensive efficiency.

This is in contrast to team defensive efficiency which can easily be measured as there is no confusion on who to blame or credit for the made/missed baskets.

[Stringer Bell]

Being a poor man's Jordan and the consensus choice for #2 all-time at SG is still really damn good.

[Prometheus]

I'm not aware any reliable metrics measuring individual defensive efficiency.

This is in contrast to team defensive efficiency which can easily be measured as there is no confusion on who to blame or credit for the made/missed baskets.

So do you personally believe that Kobe Bryant was a better basketball player than Michael Jordan was?

I just

really

want to know

what

you

think.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So do you personally believe that Kobe Bryant was a better basketball player than Michael Jordan was?

I just

really

want to know

what

you

think.

No I don't think Kobe has accomplished enough at this present time to support that statement. I never said otherwise. Though they are both looking up the greatest.... Kareem.

[moe94]

No I don't think Kobe has accomplished enough at this present time to support that statement. I never said otherwise. Though they are both looking up the greatest.... Kareem.

Was Kobe Bryant, for any period of time, a better player than peak Jordan? I'm talking an entire year.

[Milbuck]

. . . the greatest.... Kareem.
http://replygif.net/i/187.gif

[sportjames23]

No I don't think Kobe has accomplished enough at this present time to support that statement. I never said otherwise. Though they are both looking up the greatest.... Kareem.

They only looking up to Kareem because he's taller.

MJ da GOAT doe.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kobe Bryant who happened to face elite defenses in the Finals AND played a large amount of his playoffs career during when league wide scoring and efficiency was down (about 98-04)
What about 2006 - 2012 his numbers still being inferior to Jordan even with increased pace that was much in line with the early 90's with higher defense efficiency ratings? Love how the Laker stan argument shifts to Kareem when Kobe / Magic falls short.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Was Kobe Bryant, for any period of time, a better player than peak Jordan? I'm talking an entire year.

Not enough information. I would just be pulling an answer out of my ass either way. In what years do you think Jordan and Kobe's offensive numbers were derived in a similar environment such that a straight comparison would be fair to both players? I've never seen Jordan light up actual elite defense like Kobe did the early 00 Spurs. He only faced a few of them in the playoffs and shot around 40%. Could he? Maybe, but am I supposed to give him credit for things he might have done?

[The-Legend-24]

Damn, this dude made another Kobe thread? :roll:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What about 2006 - 2012 his numbers still being inferior to Jordan even with increased pace that was much in line with the early 90's with higher defense efficiency ratings?

He murdered the no D Suns in the WCF didn't he?

Also faced the one of the greatest defenses of all time, the number 1 rated defense in the league and the 4th most improved defense in the playoffs of all time all in the Finals.

[Cold soul]

Being a poor man's Jordan and the consensus choice for #2 all-time at SG is still really damn good.

Expect Kobe wasn't a poor man's Jordan. If anything Kobe was more skilled player with a more devise skill set but was less athletic than MJ. MJ was just one step above due to freakish athletic ability and better mindset, defender, etc.

[tragicbronson]

Jordan stans start to feel insecure the moment someone compares someone to MJ

[SamuraiSWISH]

If anything Kobe was more skilled player with a more devise skill set but was less athletic than MJ.
:oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Would have loved to see MJ play in the greatest defensive era of all-time during the '60s and get shut down by the GOAT Wilt Chamberlain.

[Prometheus]

Michael cupcake Jordan. Would have loved to see him play in the greatest defensive era of all-time during the '60s and get shut down by the GOAT Wilt Chamberlain.

http://replygif.net/i/980.gif

[Jacks3]

Expect Kobe wasn't a poor man's Jordan. If anything Kobe was more skilled player with a more devise skill set but was less athletic than MJ. MJ was just one step above due to freakish athletic ability and better mindset, defender, etc.
lol @ "poor man's Jordan".

A rich man's prime Kobe would be the best player in history by far and that's not certainly not Jordan.

Jordan stans are nuts.

[moe94]

Not enough information. I would just be pulling an answer out of my ass either way. In what years do you think Jordan and Kobe's offensive numbers were derived in a similar environment such that a straight comparison would be fair to both players? I've never seen Jordan light up actual elite defense like Kobe did the early 00 Spurs. He only faced a few of them in the playoffs and shot around 40%. Could he? Maybe, but am I supposed to give him credit for things he might have done?

You really think Kobe is a greater scorer than Jordan, huh? :biggums:

[sportjames23]

Jordan stans start to feel insecure the moment someone compares someone to MJ


LOL, ain't no player in the game today even comes close to MJ, stan. :oldlol:

[Milbuck]

I love Kobe...grew up watching him, idolized his game. But please, please stop with the MJ comparisons. Not only is it unfair, but it's completely disrespectful to him. He's put in so much work, done so much for the game, he deserves to be appreciated for what IS, not what he isn't.

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://replygif.net/i/980.gif
Wilt would have layed out cupcake and it wouldn't even be called a flagrant.

[SamuraiSWISH]

He murdered the no D Suns in the WCF didn't he?
28 / 6 / 5 on 50% isn't messing with Jordan's '88 - '93 playoff runs.

[Prometheus]

Dude I know you think Wilt gets disrespected on this forum, and I agree. But I've watched the film. The defense in 1960s NBA was a JOKE compared to that of the modern era.

A JOKE.

A JOKE.

A JOKE.

A JOKE.

A JOKE.

A JOKE.

I'm not hating, it's just really obvious man.

[sportjames23]

lol @ "poor man's Jordan".

A rich man's prime Kobe would be the best player in history by far and that's not certainly not Jordan.

Jordan stans are nuts.


Kobe stans are delusional. And in denial. MJ is the consensus GOAT and there ain't a damn thing you can do about it but shut up and like it. :pimp:

[SamuraiSWISH]

A rich man's prime Kobe would be the best player in history by far and that's not certainly not Jordan.
Late 90's Jordan is every bit as good as prime Kobe. Prime Jordan is the best player of all-time. You admitted it yourself that he's better than Kobe. This is by far the consensus opinion besides a few loons running around the internet with warped, discrediting agendas.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Dude I know you think Wilt gets disrespected on this forum, and I agree. But I've watched the film. The defense in 1960s NBA was a JOKE compared to that of the modern era.

A JOKE.

A JOKE.

A JOKE.

A JOKE.

A JOKE.

A JOKE.

I'm not hating, it's just really obvious man.
1960s was a grown man's game. No era was tougher. You got Bill Russell or Wilt Chamberlain in the paint if you were playing against the Celtics or Sixers. The two greatest defensive players in history.

[tragicbronson]

LOL, ain't no player in the game today even comes close to MJ, stan. :oldlol:

Just by looking at your avatar i realize who i am dealing with so it's not worth.

[Milbuck]

There is literally only one player I would even consider taking over MJ, and it's this guy.

http://d1warraxuf7xh1.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/SHAQ-2000.jpg

[Jacks3]

Late 90's Jordan is every bit as good as prime Kobe. Prime Jordan is the best player of all-time. You admitted it yourself that he's better than Kobe. This is by far the consensus opinion besides a few loons running around the internet with warped, discrediting agendas.
Oh? So if someone picks Kareem or Russell as their GOAT...they're nuts?

And there's a difference between saying Jordan is the best and acting like it's indisputable or like there's some clear gap between him and the other GOAT level guys.

[Prometheus]

1960s was a grown man's game. No era was tougher. You got Bill Russell or Wilt Chamberlain in the paint if you were playing against the Celtics or Sixers. The two greatest defensive players in history.

WOW greatest defensive era because of two guys and their estimated block averages. :facepalm Come on man, level with me. Just watch the film. Ball-handling, lateral quickness, on-ball defense... the game has evolved by leaps and bounds since the 1960s.

[Derivative]

LOL 100 replies alrdy and its not even 2 hours. I am the greatest poster of all time.

[Cold soul]

:oldlol:

What's so damn funny? You seriously don't think Kobe the more skilled player even you admitted it yourself that Kobe at his very best is 92-94% of MJ right? For example if player A is much greater athletically than player B, but (B) is less athletic version of (A), but is on par skills wise with (A) if not higher. What separates them is player (A) has the superior athletic ability. Look at this video for yourself. Phil coached both during their peaks/prime, he would know more than any of us fans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_WNTx3gG_s

[Yao Ming's Foot]

28 / 6 / 5 on 50% isn't messing with Jordan's '88 - '93 playoff runs.

Those aren't Kobe's numbers in the WCF vs the Suns so I assume you are once again trying to equate an entire run maybe containing one or two puffs with Jordans in which the puffs are the norm.

[Deuce Bigalow]

WOW greatest defensive era because of two guys and their estimated block averages. :facepalm Come on man, level with me. Just watch the film. Ball-handling, lateral quickness, on-ball defense... the game has evolved by leaps and bounds since the 1960s.
The NBA peaked in the 1960s. At no point since has basketball ever reached a higher level.

[Cold soul]

lol @ "poor man's Jordan".

A rich man's prime Kobe would be the best player in history by far and that's not certainly not Jordan.

Jordan stans are nuts.

I never once said Kobe was a poor man's MJ. :confusedshrug:

[Prometheus]

The NBA peaked in the 1960s. At no point since has basketball ever reached a higher level.

Dude I am not trolling you in any way shape or form, I seriously thought you were a reasonable poster until now. I personally think Wilt gets disrespected like crazy on this forum, and although I wasn't alive to watch that era while it was new, I've seen plenty of film, and I don't think it's crazy to suggest that Wilt Chamberlain was as good or better than Michael Jordan. I've seen you defend him passionately and admired it in a way.

But now I know you're delusional. I just wish I knew what was the cause of your insane bias.

[Jacks3]

I never once said Kobe was a poor man's MJ. :confusedshrug:
Sorry. I was talking about the guy you quoted.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Those aren't Kobe's numbers in the WCF vs the Suns so I assume you are once again trying to equate an entire run maybe containing one or two puffs with Jordans in which the puffs are the norm.
No, I'm comparing Kobe's v.s. the krispy cream puff 2006 Suns. Just one round of playoff ball ... his averages should have been way higher if it's just 7 games.

I'm comparing those to Jordan's deep runs either ending in conference finals against eventual champions, or championships. Runs where he went up against some of the greatest defenses of all-time.

[SamuraiSWISH]

What's so damn funny? You seriously don't think Kobe the more skilled player even you admitted it yourself that Kobe at his very best is 92-94% of MJ right?
You asked me in a PM, and I told you they're about as skilled as one another. The reason Kobe is only 90% of MJ is because of athleticism, and mental intangibles. I never said Kobe was more skilled. Because he's not. For about everything they are equal. Kobe has the range, and long ball on MJ. MJ has a vastly superior off the ball game on offense, as well as catch / shoot ability. They off set one another. I'm not claiming either is more skilled than the other. I am saying definitively MJ is about 10% better. The difference between 25 / 5 / 5 and 30 / 5 / 5 in essence confirms this factually.

[Cold soul]

You asked me in a PM, and I told you they're about as skilled as one another. The reason Kobe is only 90% of MJ is because of athleticism, and mental intangibles. I never said Kobe was more skilled. Because he's not. For about everything they are equal. Kobe has the range, and long ball on MJ. MJ has a vastly superior off the ball game on offense, as well as catch / shoot ability. They off set one another. I'm not claiming either is more skilled than the other. I am saying definitively MJ is about 10% better. The difference between 25 / 5 / 5 and 30 / 5 / 5 in essence confirms this factually.

Did you see the video I posted above. Phil Jackson said Kobe had better basketball skills than MJ. Not my words his...

[SamuraiSWISH]

Did you see the video I posted above. Phil Jackson said Kobe had better basketball skills than MJ. Not my words his...
I understand. We all have our opinion on something as subjective as skill set. He's also said MJ > Kobe, definitively. I just brought up skill sets MJ was better at, and mentioned the aspects of skill set that Kobe was superior with. I think if one were to compare their skill set, if you gave one the advantage the difference is marginal at best. Where there is a more clear advantage is in athleticism.

[Cold soul]

I understand. We all have our opinion on something as subjective as skill set. He's also said MJ > Kobe, definitively. I just brought up skill sets MJ was better at, and mentioned the aspects of skill set that Kobe was superior with. I think if one were to compare their skill set, if you gave one the advantage the difference is marginal at best. Where there is a more clear advantage is in athleticism.

As I said before. MJ the munch better player with way better accomplishments but Kobe the more skilled player. In my view anyway. We can agree to disagree. I do agree with most of your post though. MJ is the GOAT without question.

[Prometheus]

Did you see the video I posted above. Phil Jackson said Kobe had better basketball skills than MJ. Not my words his...

Kobe had better ball-handling gimmicks and a better outside shot. Jordan was more skilled at E-V-E-R-Y other aspect of basketball (so as not to be ambiguous, a few examples are moving without the ball, utilizing proper defensive fundamentals, rebounding, accuracy with midrange jumpers, and post-offense). Skill =/= and1 streetball moves.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kobe had better ball-handling gimmicks and a better outside shot. Jordan was more skilled at E-V-E-R-Y other aspect of basketball (so as not to be ambiguous, a few examples are moving without the ball, utilizing proper defensive fundamentals, rebounding, accuracy with midrange jumpers, and post-offense). Skill =/= and1 streetball moves.
This. MJ had fancy ball handling too.

[Cold soul]

Kobe had better ball-handling gimmicks and a better outside shot. Jordan was more skilled at E-V-E-R-Y other aspect of basketball (so as not to be ambiguous, a few examples are moving without the ball, utilizing proper defensive fundamentals, rebounding, accuracy with midrange jumpers, and post-offense). Skill =/= and1 streetball moves.

I'll argue Kobe had the better footwork.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I'll argue Kobe had the better footwork.
Based on what? I mean it's clear MJ was the superior off the ball player, mid range shooter, and catch / shoot ability. Kobe needs ball in hand way more to get into his groove.

Kobe's footwork is better? The vast majority of his whole post game repertoire is based on MJ's move set. I'm talking reverse pivots, before Kobe did it. I mean whatever you want.

Kobe's a marginally better ball handler, nothing significant, and a superior long range shooter. Everything else goes to Jordan. Particularly defense.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Dude I am not trolling you in any way shape or form, I seriously thought you were a reasonable poster until now. I personally think Wilt gets disrespected like crazy on this forum, and although I wasn't alive to watch that era while it was new, I've seen plenty of film, and I don't think it's crazy to suggest that Wilt Chamberlain was as good or better than Michael Jordan. I've seen you defend him passionately and admired it in a way.

But now I know you're delusional. I just wish I knew what was the cause of your insane bias.
:lol I was not entirely serious. Although there is a good case that WILT'S COMPETITION as in big men, was the strongest of any eras. Pettit, Russell, Thrumond, Reed, and Kareem. This era of big men is honestly a joke compared to then and also the '90s.

[Prometheus]

I'll argue Kobe had the better footwork.

Kobe had more :eek: footwork, I saw him pull of some ridiculous moves after picking up his dribble to get a shot off, but I believe Jordan's fundamentals of footwork were vastly superior.

[Prometheus]

:lol I was not entirely serious. Although there is a good case that WILT'S COMPETITION as in big men, was the strongest of any eras. Pettit, Russell, Thrumond, Reed, and Kareem. This era of big men is honestly a joke compared to then and also the '90s.

Wait... you mean there ARE any big men in this era??? :lol

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wait... you mean there ARE any big men in this era??? :lol
Duncan, Dirk, and KG. Old though but once they are gone who is left? Kevin Love. Davis has a chance to be special but that's it for big men.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I'll argue Kobe had the better footwork
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-VcA2QZEFU

Same stuff from both, MJ was the originator, and gets more separation from defender due to physical quickness advantages. I don't see how you give the not to Kobe so definitively.

[Cold soul]

Based on what? I mean it's clear MJ was the superior off the ball player, mid range shooter, and catch / shoot ability. Kobe needs ball in hand way more to get into his groove.

Kobe's footwork is better? The vast majority of his whole post game repertoire is based on MJ's move set. I'm talking reverse pivots, before Kobe did it. I mean whatever you want.

Kobe's a marginally better ball handler, nothing significant, and a superior long range shooter. Everything else goes to Jordan. Particularly defense.

Phil said in his book Kobe is more physically flexible, so that probably has some to do with it. I would even give Kobe the body control edge. Kobe has lasted so long before the achillies tear due to insane fundamentals. Videos like this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-tXvMriU0Y&t=4m53s

Kobe was almost or near as good as MJ in the post what separated them was MJ natural strength and separation from defenders. I don't think I would say MJ was the superior mid range shooter but your other points I agree with. I do think Jordan was the way better defender, light years ahead of natural mindset, leader, jumping ability, freakish athleticism as Phil said MJ had those million dollar hands. Just in some departments of basketball skills, I give Kobe the slight edge over MJ. Not by landslide or anything like that.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I would even give Kobe the body control edge.
In the air? I don't think so. MJ has superior body dexterity

Look at this:

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu315/zzsupermanzz15/kobevsjordan.jpg

See the difference in lower body flexibility? Probably why MJ's break away dunks, or dunk contest jams looked more graceful.

This was BTW Kobe once again copying Jordan. Shamelessly.

Kobe's more liquid in his upper body as Phil explains in his book. MJ had much broader weight bearing shoulders, thus being stronger. Kobe could slither, like a snake. Those narrower shoulders.

It's like Kobe's skill set on a slightly taller D-Wade's frame. That's Jordan.


Kobe has lasted so long before the achillies tear due to insane fundamentals.
I know. MJ did too. That's why he was the best player in the league at 35 years old. How he was able to retire, get fat for 3 whole years, come back at 38 1/2 years old and prior to a crippling knee injury was putting up 25 / 5 / 5 on pure craftiness.

Oh, he did that in the "best defensive era" of all-time. Between the ages of 38 - 40.

Same way Kobe has been so good since 2010 when his athleticism evaporated from his body. They're both as I've routinely said the most skilled, particularly individually skilled players of all-time. MJ just had the superior body, and athleticism. As well as a superior mind as you explain via Phil's book.

Particularly his more natural abilities to lead, and have people want to follow. Kobe still doesn't posses that ... he alienates himself, and is too coarse with teammates. Plus his occasional selfish agendas.


MJ was the superior mid range shooter
I would. Slightly, but more accurate. Kobe's got the long ball advantages though. More specifically, range.

But the minor, or major arguable differences in skill set are ultimately moot because MJ's superior athleticism, and mental intangibles make the difference between:

25 / 5 / 5
5x rings
MVP
2x Finals MVPs

and

30 / 5 / 5
6x rings
5x MVPs
DPOY
6x Finals MVPs

[Marlo Stanfield]

They both have great footwork. Kobe manages to travel less often however so give him credit for that. MJ's first step was like 3 steps and refs would just watch.



Was Kobe Bryant, for any period of time, a better player than peak Jordan? I'm talking an entire year.

Only a delusional Kobe Stan would say so.

Vanessa Bryant is hot, most straight males would want to bang her because she looks good.

Kobe stans would go down on her or Toss Kate Faber's salad to see what Kobe's ***** taste like.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

They both have great footwork. Kobe manages to travel less often however so give him credit for that. MJ's first step was like 3 steps and refs would just watch.




Only a delusional Kobe Stan would say so.

Vanessa Bryant is hot, most straight males would want to bang her because she looks good.

Kobe stans would go down on her or Toss Kate Faber's salad to see what Kobe's ***** taste like.
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Leonaro-DiCaprio-Zoom-in-and-Nod-while-smoking-Django-Unchained.gif

[pauk]

Even with another ring & more points he pretty much falls short anyways i would say..... its not the rings/points he is trailing.... but the quality, force, context of it all....

[Vienceslav]

Newsflash: Player not deemed good enough to surpass the greatest player of all time.
How does this have 9 pages, it's hardly a controversial opinion.

[Mr Feeny]

:oldlol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v27Hk5OIe-k

He tried to be like everything Jordan stylistically.

Kobe copied 90% of what he actually could in regards to Jordan. Couldn't imitate the basketball IQ, the heart to attack and ability to finish at the rim consistently. Can't imitate shot selection, or off the ball, catch and shoot ability.

So to off set all that, and increase volume scoring ... Kobe expanded his range, and focused on that 3 ball. Only real difference. Jordan was reluctant to shoot that shot because it decreases efficiency, and bails defenses out.

Kobe wasn't a much better 3 point shooter than Mj mind you. I believe he shot 33.5% as opposed to 32.7% for MJ, with MJ's Wizards years dragging down his percentage.
MJ just focused on getting better shots, and therefore shot less 3's.

[Mr Feeny]

28 / 6 / 5 on 50% isn't messing with Jordan's '88 - '93 playoff runs.

Jordan averaged 35-7-6 during those runs. What are you smoking? Kobe, great as he was, never even approached those numbers. Jordan also didn't have Shaq drawing double and triple teams to free him up.

[Marlo Stanfield]

Jordan's 3 pt % is inflated by the rule change from 94 to 97, but he was better at 3s in the postseason when it mattered most than Kobe.

:oldlol: at anyone saying Kobe is equal to MJ.

[Mr Feeny]

Jordan's 3 pt % is inflated by the rule change from 94 to 97, but he was better at 3s in the postseason when it mattered most than Kobe.

:oldlol: at anyone saying Kobe is equal to MJ.

But you could argue that he simply improved his shooting as he started relying more on his jumper as he aged. You are correct, though. He shot better than Kobe when it mattered most - the post season.

[Jasper]

Maybe the basketball gods don't like how Kobe tries so hard to match the GOAT, and purposesly break him before he can match the GOAT.

After he won his 5th ring, Kobe and many other were expecting to match MJ's all 6 ring record. But he fell short by playing like shit and got swept by the Mavs.

Now people are claiming Kobe should pass MJ's alltime scoring record, and it's highly likely that's Kobe's primary goal now. And now he is always injured preventing him from playing.

Kobe is like Icarus, always trying to fly too high, but ultimately get burned and fall down.
People forget MJ was out of the league for 3 years..... add two or three rings , and take MJ out college :D
I'm the only one on this board that thinks Kobe was never in MJ's league (.)

[Mr Feeny]

People forget MJ was out of the league for 3 years..... add two or three rings , and take MJ out college :D
I'm the only one on this board that thinks Kobe was never in MJ's league (.)

No. Everyone who understands basketball is in agreement with you.

[Marlo Stanfield]

People forget MJ was out of the league for 3 years..... add two or three rings , and take MJ out college :D
I'm the only one on this board that thinks Kobe was never in MJ's league (.)

Kobe never was on MJ's level.

Great player, but a level below.