LeBron's 45 / 15 / 5 vs 98.0 DEF rating 2012 Celtics

[SamuraiSWISH]

Is it top five playoff performance of all-time?

[russwest0]

Without biased officiating the Celtics win in 5.

[imnew09]

Tell me how he did against the Celtics in 2010.

Celtics were pretty washed up in 2012

[russwest0]

Tell me how he did against the Celtics in 2010

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

The famous "I quit" series.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Tell me how he did against the Celtics in 2010.

Celtics were pretty washed up in 2012
They were the #1 ranked defense. Doesn't sound washed up yet.

2012 Celtics 98.0 DEF rating
2010 Celtics 103.8 DEF rating

Doe?

[hahaitme]

They were the #1 ranked defense. Doesn't sound washed up yet.

2012 Celtics 98.0 DEF rating
2010 Celtics 103.8 DEF rating

Doe?

Quoting for truth, and swish ain't even a bron stan, he's just telling it how it is

[Artillery]

Shaq averaging 27/10 on 61 TS% against the 92.0 Drating Pistons. Unfortunately for Diesel, he has a cancerous sidekick holding him back that year.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Shaq averaging 27/10 on 61 TS% against the 92.0 Drating Pistons. Unfortunately for Diesel, he has a cancerous sidekick holding him back that year.
They were rated like 95.

[buddha]

bron was lucky his jumpers were falling. as we have seen that doesn't happen very often.

[supermechasonic]

I would suggest it is a potential GOAT playoff performance due in large part to the circumstances.

[Rose'sACL]

I would suggest it is a potential GOAT playoff performance due in large part to the circumstances.
this.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I would suggest it is a potential GOAT playoff performance due in large part to the circumstances.
Yea that ... but bro DAT DEFENSIVE RATING.

:oldlol:

[riseagainst]

not GOAT performance, but something like top 5-7.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Kobe fans mad salty.
Pierce was GREAt that series, Allen was pretty good, Rondo was incredible and Garnett was very good and caused the Heat problems with his size.
what LeBron did in game 6 under that much scrutiny is unrivaled in the history of the NBA.
even i as a long time LBJ Fan didnt think he had that in him:eek: :bowdown:

[JohnFreeman]

They were the #1 ranked defense. Doesn't sound washed up yet.

2012 Celtics 98.0 DEF rating
2010 Celtics 103.8 DEF rating

Doe?
That shut them up.
My top 3:
MJ flu game
Magic 1980 game 6 playing as center
LeBron game 6

[MichaelCorleone]

Definitely top 5 playoffs performance of all time.

It was an elimination game.

[knicksman]

its obvious that LeBron stans have the lowest standards AKA "betas". Really?? Against a 48 win team Celtics and his performance is ATG. LMAO

[SamuraiSWISH]

its obvious that LeBron stans have the lowest standards AKA "betas". Really?? Against a 48 win team Celtics and his performance is ATG. LMAO
Defensive Rating doe ... it's the most important determining factor in an opponents total quality.

[gin17]

it's shows so much insecurity from Lebron stans when they prop up teams that they defeated just to "show" that lebron's the goat

go back to the 90s and early 00s and see real competition. not old celtics and spurs, inexperienced thunder and bulls, etc. lebron's had it easier compared to competition in the past. let's see them fight over truly stacked teams like shaq's lakers, jordan's bulls, isaiah's pistons, magic's lakers, bird's celtics, etc

[Im Still Ballin]

it's shows so much insecurity from Lebron stans when they prop up teams that they defeated just to "show" that lebron's the goat

go back to the 90s and early 00s and see real competition. not old celtics and spurs, inexperienced thunder and bulls, etc. lebron's had it easier compared to competition in the past. let's see them fight over truly stacked teams like shaq's lakers, jordan's bulls, isaiah's pistons, magic's lakers, bird's celtics, etc

Jordan had it just as easy especially his 2nd 3peat

[JohnFreeman]

it's shows so much insecurity from Lebron stans when they prop up teams that they defeated just to "show" that lebron's the goat

go back to the 90s and early 00s and see real competition. not old celtics and spurs, inexperienced thunder and bulls, etc. lebron's had it easier compared to competition in the past. let's see them fight over truly stacked teams like shaq's lakers, jordan's bulls, isaiah's pistons, magic's lakers, bird's celtics, etc
So we should discredit the Mavs in 2011?

[Lebron23]

it's shows so much insecurity from Lebron stans when they prop up teams that they defeated just to "show" that lebron's the goat

go back to the 90s and early 00s and see real competition. not old celtics and spurs, inexperienced thunder and bulls, etc. lebron's had it easier compared to competition in the past. let's see them fight over truly stacked teams like shaq's lakers, jordan's bulls, isaiah's pistons, magic's lakers, bird's celtics, etc


Lebron have a great record against the Western Conference teams. Heat defeated the 2 best teams in the west in the NBA Finals. It's not Lebron's fault that he's the best player in the league.

You need to watch more games son. Do you have a cable connection in Visayas or Mindanao??

[Lebron23]

So we should discredit the Mavs in 2011?


The guy is just an insecure troll. He was originally a "Bull's/Rose" Fan.

[Lebron23]

That shut them up.
My top 3:
MJ flu game
Magic 1980 game 6 playing as center
LeBron game 6


It's also a do or die aka elimination games.

[Lebron23]

So we should discredit the Mavs in 2011?


That troll clearly hates Lebron. I know his username from another forum. It looks like he's not a fan of any NBA team. Just a hater.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=304022

[knicksman]

Defensive Rating doe ... it's the most important determining factor in an opponents total quality.


last time I check theres 2 sides of this game. You just exposed your IQ again swish:lol

[SamuraiSWISH]

last time I check theres 2 sides of this game. You just exposed your IQ again swish:lol
I was playing devil's advocate to a bigger retard. Dumb ass. See YMF

[Andrei89]

Anybody who does not see this as one of the greatest performances of all time is a sad individual who does not love the game of basketball.

Even I as a Heat fan thought for sure that we are done. I did not expect Lebron to play with that hunger.

[K Xerxes]

I don't really believe that the Celtics' defense mattered much in this game. Dude was making turn around fadeaway jumpers like they were layups in that game. That's unstoppable.

Essily a top 5 playoff performance I've seen, maybe even top 3 considering his legacy would have taken a massive hammering were they to lose that game.

[dabigbaws]

my top 2 games:
MJ flu game
ray allen game 6

[plowking]

He easily could have got 55ish that game, within the flow too. He completely switched off at a point and went into cruise mode.

Really would have been cool to see him go for it and just kill the Celtics. I think he would have if it was a game 7 and had a little break afterwards.

[theoneneo]

Could name at least 5 Jordan performances alone that tops this. I'll let you live tho! Top 20 maybe!

[Rose'sACL]

Could name at least 5 Jordan performances alone that tops this. I'll let you live tho! Top 20 maybe!
go ahead. name them.

[Blue&Orange]

Defensive Rating doe ... it's the most important determining factor in an opponents total quality.
:lol :roll:

Anyone who says celtics 2012 >> 2010 have ZERO understating of basketball.

http://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1xcq7b/carlos_boozer_is_ranked_13th_this_season_in/

Boozer >> Ibaka

lol


Without biased officiating the Celtics win in 5.
This.


Lebron beat a washed up celtics with a huge amount of refs help, beat the youngest team ever in the finals with a huge amount of refs help, and last year beat the oldest team ever in the finals with the help of popovich\ray allen.


that legacy.

[Element]

DRTG, lol. Those Celtics lacked their best perimeter defender in the playoffs (Avery Bradley). Pierce and Ray sucked dick and were hobbled throughout that run, as well. It was all Rondo and KG. Also, they doubled Wade and left LeBron in single coverage the entire series. JVG mentions it a billion times for anyone who's too blinded by LeBron stan-ism to see it.

That performance was absolutely incredible. His series overall is overrated, though.

[Prometheus]

It was easily one of the greatest individual performances in basketball history, and as far as the impact that it had on the career of the individual in question, I doubt anything compares. But I don't even think it's LeBron's best game: I'll take 2007 Detroit gm5.

[dunksby]

LeBron had a monstrous game, he refused to miss and he was making fadeaways and turn around js automatically. I was in awe watching that performance.

[MichaelCorleone]

Could name at least 5 Jordan performances alone that tops this. I'll let you live tho! Top 20 maybe!
Name those 5 better performances please. Please.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Could name at least 5 Jordan performances alone that tops this. I'll let you live tho! Top 20 maybe!
http://cdn.niketalk.com/2/2f/350x700px-LL-2ff5111e_michael-jordan-laughing.gif

[MichaelCorleone]

Please name those 5 better performances. Please.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

:lol :roll:

Anyone who says celtics 2012 >> 2010 have ZERO understating of basketball.

http://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1xcq7b/carlos_boozer_is_ranked_13th_this_season_in/


Seriously? How stupid are you to compare individual defensive ratings to team defensive ratings?

[MichaelCorleone]

theoneneo needs to answer our question.

Please name those 5 Jordan better playoff performances.

[Trollsmasher]

Seriously? How stupid are you to compare individual defensive ratings to team defensive ratings?
That takes a special kind of stupidity:roll:

[fpliii]

:lol :roll:

Anyone who says celtics 2012 >> 2010 have ZERO understating of basketball.

http://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1xcq7b/carlos_boozer_is_ranked_13th_this_season_in/

Boozer >> Ibaka

lol


This.


Lebron beat a washed up celtics with a huge amount of refs help, beat the youngest team ever in the finals with a huge amount of refs help, and last year beat the oldest team ever in the finals with the help of popovich\ray allen.


that legacy.
:facepalm

Why would you compare individual DRtg to team DRtg? The team version is just points allowed per possession. Individual DRtg is some shitty metric based on box score stats.

[ArbitraryWater]

GOAT Performance to be honest

[tmacattack33]

It is in the top 3 playoff performance I've ever seen (which pretty much means since 1995).

When the pressure circumstances come into play (losing would have meant two losses in a row for Miami and maybe a dismantling of that team and the end of Lebron's legacy), it has an argument for greatest.

[absalom]

oh look it is Yao Ming's Foot favorite subject. :oldlol:

[SilkkTheShocker]

Tell me how he did against the Celtics in 2010.

Celtics were pretty washed up in 2012

You mean when he played with scrub Cleveland teams? You can't play the Boston is old card and ignore the fact LeBron's Cleveland teams lacked talent.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

You mean when he played with scrub Cleveland teams? You can't play the Boston is old card and ignore the fact LeBron's Cleveland teams lacked talent.
you are talking to a Kobetard right there. Everything is possible

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Is it top five playoff performance of all-time?

Lebron's GameScore for that game was 36.4

Against elite defenses it would contend for the top 10, but really Kobe deserves the edge because 94.1 is >>> 98.2


Hope this helps


10. Kobe Bryant vs 2004 Spurs (94.1 DEF RATING)

http://lakers.topbuzz.com/gallery/d/24117-2/Kobe+Bryant+layup+over+Bruce+Bowen.jpg

42 points, 15 for 27, 10-13 FT, 6 rebs, 5 assists 36.1 GameScore

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjr2kNQVbXg

9. Shaquille O'Neal vs 2001 Kings (99.6 DEF RATING)


http://images.usatoday.com/sports/nba/_photos/2001-05-06-oneal.jpg

43 points, 18 for 26, 7 for 13 FT, 20 rebounds, 3 blocks 37.1 GameScore

youtube?

8. Anfernee Hardaway vs 1997 Heat (100.6 DEF Rating)

http://content9.flixster.com/photo/13/08/78/13087851_ori.jpg

41 points, 12 for 23, 4 for 8 3pts, 7 rebs, 3 blocks, 38.1 GameScore

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1vefSacsik


7. Shaquille O'Neal vs 2001 Kings (99.6 DEF RATING)

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2001/playoffs/news/2001/05/06/kings_lakers_ap/lg_shaq_ap.jpg

44 points, 17 for 32, 10-19 FT, 21 rebounds, 7 blocks, 40.0 GameScore

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b63E_mNpAg


6. Tim Duncan vs 2003 Nets (98.1 DEF RATING)

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2008/0611/nba_g_tduncan1_580.jpg

32 points, 11 for 17, 10-14 FT, 20 rebounds, 6 assists, 7 blocks, 40.8 GameScore

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwWqsbANx6g


5. Dirk Nowitzki vs 2001 Spurs (98.0 DEF RATING)


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2001/playoffs/news/2001/05/12/spurs_mavs_ap/t1_nowitzki_ap-01.jpg

42 points, 14 for 24, 14-18 FT, 18 rebounds, 6 steals, 41.3 GameScore

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mx5qjSOCxVc


4. Michael Jordan vs 1993 Knicks (99.7 DEF RATING)


http://www.sneakerfiles.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/1992_1993__knicks.jpg

54 points, 18 for 30, 6-9 3pt, 12-14 FT, 6 rebs 41.3 GameScore

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoVMIZWS_-A

3. Paul Pierce vs 2002 76ers (100.3 DEF RATING)


http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/146/258/RackMultipart.28901.0_display_image.jpg

46 points, 16 for 25, 8-10 3pt, 6 assists 41.6 GameScore

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_gdjB8boaI

2. Kobe Bryant vs 2001 Kings (99.6 DEF RATING)


http://espn.go.com/media/nba/2001/0517/photo/r_kobe_bryant_i.jpg

48 pts, 15 for 29, 17-19 FT, 16 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 steals 43.3 GameScore

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpArN4LbTI0

1. Vince Carter vs 2001 76ers (98.9 DEF RATING)

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/carter/gfx/carter_vince441_262.jpg

50 pts, 19 for 29, 9-13 from 3, 6 rebs, 7 assists, 4 blocks 46.8 GameScore

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5qm5wVj0U0

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I had totally forgotten this was against a 40 win team (theoretically)....completely devalues what I originally ranked a top 5-10 performance all time (srs).

[Project018]

Top 5 for sure including the circumstances & legacy. Its too many other great post season performances (MJ has plenty, Magic @ 19, etc.) for me to say GOAT or top 3 off the top of my head right now.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

I had totally forgotten this was against a 40 win team (theoretically)....completely devalues what I originally ranked a top 5-10 performance all time (srs).
retard status cemented:coleman:

[juju151111]

Lebron's GameScore for that game was 36.4

Against elite defenses it would contend for the top 10, but really Kobe deserves the edge because 94.1 is >>> 98.2


Hope this helps
Dtrg is stupid and flawed has **** even you admitted it. Defense doesn't always play up to their potential, different matchups,schemes , players, double teams etc.... This is the reason you have players scoring more on better defensive team then ones with 100 dtrg. The only way to judge is watching + dtrg. What if a coach tells his team to concentrate on the star players teammates because they are garbage and just let the star player get his and shouldn't you be using playoff Drtg

[fpliii]

Lebron's GameScore for that game was 36.4

Against elite defenses it would contend for the top 10, but really Kobe deserves the edge because 94.1 is >>> 98.2


Hope this helps
Just wondering, how'd you get that top 10? Is that your personal list, or is there some formula involved taking into account game score and DRtg?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Just wondering, how'd you get that top 10? Is that your personal list, or is there some formula involved taking into account game score and DRtg?

I made it in 2011 with the cutoff being around <100 defensive rating. Its ordered by GameScore(equivalent to one game PER). It's probably missing a ton of games.

Derived from here...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/game_score.html

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Dtrg is stupid and flawed has **** even you admitted it. Defense doesn't always play up to their potential, different matchups,schemes , players, double teams etc.... This is the reason you have players scoring more on better defensive team then ones with 100 dtrg. The only way to judge is watching + dtrg. What if a coach tells his team to concentrate on the star players teammates because they are garbage and just let the star player get his and shouldn't you be using playoff Drtg

This is gibberish. Try again.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

retard status cemented:coleman:

OK...MAYBE top 10. Feel better, sunshine?

[fpliii]

I made it in 2011 with the cutoff being around <100 defensive rating. Its ordered by GameScore(equivalent to one game PER). It's probably missing a ton of games.
Ah okay. Two things:

1) I don't like game score here because it contains defensive stats, which aren't related to opponent DRtg. Maybe we can create a bastardized version without STL/BLK/DRB/PF. The definition is:


Game Score; the formula is PTS + 0.4 * FG - 0.7 * FGA - 0.4*(FTA - FT) + 0.7 * ORB + 0.3 * DRB + STL + 0.7 * AST + 0.7 * BLK - 0.4 * PF - TOV. Game Score was created by John Hollinger to give a rough measure of a player's productivity for a single game. The scale is similar to that of points scored, (40 is an outstanding performance, 10 is an average performance, etc.).

SO I guess we could edit it to be:

offGS= PTS + 0.4 * FG - 0.7 * FGA - 0.4*(FTA - FT) + 0.7 * ORB + 0.7 * AST - TOV

2) I like the idea of something like game score * 100/drtg * leverage index. basketball-reference touched on this concept:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9420#comment-48936

but we'd have to scale them down as they suggested. We'd also have to weigh each round differently. I think the first two rounds should be worth less than conference finals and NBA Finals, in which you're facing generally the best team in each conference. Though with the DRtg adjustment, maybe we don't need this (I think we still do).

[juju151111]

This is gibberish. Try again.
Yea taught you would say that. Lo:pimp:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Ah okay. Two things:

1) I don't like game score here because it contains defensive stats, which aren't related to opponent DRtg. Maybe we can create a bastardized version without STL/BLK/DRB/PF. The definition is:



SO I guess we could edit it to be:

offGS= PTS + 0.4 * FG - 0.7 * FGA - 0.4*(FTA - FT) + 0.7 * ORB + 0.7 * AST - TOV

2) I like the idea of something like game score * 100/drtg * leverage index. basketball-reference touched on this concept:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9420#comment-48936

but we'd have to scale them down as they suggested. We'd also have to weigh each round differently. I think the first two rounds should be worth less than conference finals and NBA Finals, in which you're facing generally the best team in each conference. Though with the DRtg adjustment, maybe we don't need this (I think we still do).

:cheers:

Good points

[fpliii]

:cheers:

Good points
I'm a little too busy/lazy to put together a list at the moment though. :pimp:

Maybe we can figure it out at some point.

[Solefade]

considering the circumstances and the pressure and how he came out looking like he was literally possessed?

throw whatever advanced stats you want at it but that was a top 3 performance of all time

[fpliii]

Okay, so I put a spreadsheet together:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At9OxyY2Zhw6dDRYOVVfUVBNUmNkZFFHWlk4OHJLd Xc

I ended up including DRB, BLK, STL, TOV, but they're added after the defensive adjustment for the other stats (but before multiplication by leverage index).

I didn't add an adjustment for round, leverage index is only by game in the series at the moment.

If you guys have other games you want me to add to the list, let me know. :cheers:

[fpliii]

I added some games, but the leverage index has too much weight at the moment. Right now it's saying that LeBron's G7 in 08 against the Celtics is the best performance in the sample (better than his own G6 in 2012 against Boston). Not sure how to deal with this. I'm going to add the rest of LeBron's 40 point playoff games (already did Kobe's) and maybe some other notable games before playing around with different scales for the leverage.

EDIT: Instead of multiplying, I'm currently separating leverage index into an additive term: +2^(round+1)*leverage. It seems to give a better balance to performance vs stakes, but it's pretty arbitrary. I'll have to figure something out.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I had totally forgotten this was against a 40 win team (theoretically)....completely devalues what I originally ranked a top 5-10 performance all time (srs).
But buddy, their defensive rating was 98.0

:oldlol:

[Keno]

top 5? it's easily, no question, no debate, no argument top 3 all time. it was 1 versus 5 out there. went into that building, destroyed them for 3 and a half quarters and just left.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I added some games, but the leverage index has too much weight at the moment. Right now it's saying that LeBron's G7 in 08 against the Celtics is the best performance in the sample (better than his own G6 in 2012 against Boston). Not sure how to deal with this. I'm going to add the rest of LeBron's 40 point playoff games (already did Kobe's) and maybe some other notable games before playing around with different scales for the leverage.

EDIT: Instead of multiplying, I'm currently separating leverage index into an additive term: +2^(round+1)*leverage. It seems to give a better balance to performance vs stakes, but it's pretty arbitrary. I'll have to figure something out.
It also has LeBron's first playoff game ranked higher than his game 6 v.s. Boston. His 45 v.s. 2008 Boston was really impressive though. Best performance against that team the entire playoffs. The system is still very flawed for ranking these games off cold data.

[Keno]

on a side note lebron is truly a special player. the miami heat are so flawed it's unbelievable on how they're back to back champions. they're back to back champions just because of one single player - lebron james.

lebron has to set teammates up since chalmers and cole can't (low iq players, turnover prone), lebron has to be the leading rebounder since they have no true center, lebron has to score 27ppg for them to even a chance. on top of all this, lebron has to shut down the other team's best player (be it, point guards, shooting guards, small forwards, sometimes even power forwards, occasionally centers). it's ridiculous how much he does for the team. it's been like this since his rookie year in cleveland.

dallas mavericks last night out rebounded miami by 22 and miami still somehow won by 11 points. let me say that again, out rebounded by 22. but just because dallas couldn't stop one player, they won by 11 points.

if lebron james and the miami heat 3-peat, lebron is truly, if not already, one of the 5 players of all time.

[fpliii]

It also has LeBron's first playoff game ranked higher than his game 6 v.s. Boston. His 45 v.s. 2008 Boston was really impressive though. Best performance against that team the entire playoffs. The system is still very flawed for ranking these games off cold data.
Pretty much. I just calculated the average leverage of all playoff game possibilities. .199 for the 2-3-2 format, .201 for the .2-2-1-1-1 format. So I'm going to use relative index based on that (average game being 1.000), which we can just get by adding .800 to the index. Now it's safe to multiply, but we have to incorporate the stage of the playoffs in somehow.

BTW do you have any good MJ/Bird games worth trying out? I don't want to test it with bigs yet since it's somewhat volatile, and rebounds can swing it a bit.

[inclinerator]

why ppl keep posting 48 win team when they only played 66 games that year

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

But buddy, their defensive rating was 98.0

:oldlol:

DA 91 Bulls got a bone to pick wit dem 03 Wizards, doe.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/Michael%20Jordan/2%20Washington%20Wizards/l347628cd0000121668ed1.jpg

[PsychoBe]

on a side note lebron is truly a special player. the miami heat are so flawed it's unbelievable on how they're back to back champions. they're back to back champions just because of one single player - lebron james.

lebron has to set teammates up since chalmers and cole can't (low iq players, turnover prone), lebron has to be the leading rebounder since they have no true center, lebron has to score 27ppg for them to even a chance. on top of all this, lebron has to shut down the other team's best player (be it, point guards, shooting guards, small forwards, sometimes even power forwards, occasionally centers). it's ridiculous how much he does for the team. it's been like this since his rookie year in cleveland.

dallas mavericks last night out rebounded miami by 22 and miami still somehow won by 11 points. let me say that again, out rebounded by 22. but just because dallas couldn't stop one player, they won by 11 points.

if lebron james and the miami heat 3-peat, lebron is truly, if not already, one of the 5 players of all time.

youre overreacting. miami dont rebound because they play transition/trapping defense to force turnovers which effectively gives them an extra possession much like offensive rebounding would and they have the personnel to do it. and since you want to say lebron has been "doing it all" then we agree that he single-handily cost the cavs the finals in 2007 and the heat the finals in 2011?

either it's a team game or it's not. you make the decision. but attributing miami's systematic success to one player involved in the system is almost asinine considering the circumstances.

[Shade8780]

As a Celtics fan, I can say that was an epic Playoff series.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

In all seriousness, DRtg is only overrated when trying to compare it across eras....and making an argument that a teams defensive rating =/= better team (you need a balance of both, obviously, although I'd prefer my teams to play better defense than vice versa).

[fpliii]

In all seriousness, DRtg is only overrated when trying to compare it across eras....and making an argument that a teams defensive rating =/= better team (you need a balance of both, obviously, although I'd prefer my teams to play better defense than vice versa).
I prefer DRtg relative to league average. That way you adjust based on scoring environment in a given year. Here's a spreadsheet with all the relative numbers:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?pli=1&key=0At9OxyY2Zhw6dF80TGxJQXliY0RlcXlxSHJXdGhjV3c&type=view&gid=3&f=true&colid0=2&filterstr0=NBA&sortcolid=-1&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=1339

[SamuraiSWISH]

BTW do you have any good MJ/Bird games worth trying out? I don't want to test it with bigs yet since it's somewhat volatile, and rebounds can swing it a bit.
MJs game 6 vs Jazz '98 Finals
MJs game 6 vs Jazz '97 Finals
MJs game 1 vs Jazz '97 Finals
MJs game 5 vs Jazz '97 Finals
MJs game 1 vs Heat '97 ECF
MJs game 3 vs Knicks '96 ECSF
MJs game 1 vs Hornets '95 1st Round
MJs game 4 vs Knicks '93 ECF
MJs game 5 vs Knicks '93 ECF
MJs game 1 vs Cavaliers '93 ECSF
MJs game 1 vs Blazers '92 Finals
MJs game 4 vs Blazers '92 Finals
MJs game 7 vs Knicks '92 ECSF
MJs game 2 vs Lakers '91 Finals
MJs game 1 vs Lakers '91 Finals

For starters please

[eliteballer]

Playing on a stacked team vs a broken down shell of a champion...

[juju151111]

DA 91 Bulls got a bone to pick wit dem 03 Wizards, doe.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/Michael%20Jordan/2%20Washington%20Wizards/l347628cd0000121668ed1.jpg
03 Mj was way better. Be serious right now. They would shut down everybody. I forget what horrible ass team had a better dtrg then the 96 Bulls.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Playing on a stacked team vs a broken down shell of a champion...
2010 team was a shell of what they were in 2008, and 2009 pre KG injury. Defensive Rating tells me however that they were by far a better defensive team than they were in 2010.

[eliteballer]

Lockout season brah...Kg Ray and Pierce were all shells

[fpliii]

MJs game 6 vs Jazz '98 Finals
MJs game 6 vs Jazz '97 Finals
MJs game 1 vs Jazz '97 Finals
MJs game 5 vs Jazz '97 Finals
MJs game 1 vs Heat '97 ECF
MJs game 3 vs Knicks '96 ECSF
MJs game 1 vs Hornets '95 1st Round
MJs game 4 vs Knicks '93 ECF
MJs game 5 vs Knicks '93 ECF
MJs game 1 vs Cavaliers '93 ECSF
MJs game 1 vs Blazers '92 Finals
MJs game 4 vs Blazers '92 Finals
MJs game 7 vs Knicks '92 ECSF
MJs game 2 vs Lakers '91 Finals
MJs game 1 vs Lakers '91 Finals

For starters please
Okay, I'll try them out.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Lockout season brah...Kg Ray and Pierce were all shells
Nope cold facts say they were significantly better. A GOAT performance by LeBron.

[eliteballer]

In a historical context, do we even need to get into doing it against a pathetic conference.

A team anchored by guys pushing their late 30's while playing on a super team....:roll:

How does that even go 7 in the first place.

[ProfessorMurder]

2010 team was a shell of what they were in 2008, and 2009 pre KG injury. Defensive Rating tells me however that they were by far a better defensive team than they were in 2010.

They didn't start playing hard until post allstar game in the 2010 season, and KG's knee was trashed. That'll affect the rating a lot.


The '12 team was so injured it was scary.

Bradley missed a ton of playoff games because of dislocating shoulders that required surgery.

Ray Allen had bone spurs in both ankles.

Jeff Green didn't play one game the whole season.

Chris Wilcox had open heart surgery.

JO was constantly hurt.

Pietrus had multiple concussions just before the playoffs.

Pierce's MCL was strained multiple times that season and he was playing through it.

Even Stiemsma couldn't play more than 5 minutes at a time because of plantar fasciitis.



That team overachieved because of Rondo and a one knee'd KG.

[SamuraiSWISH]

In a historical context, do we even need to get into doing it against a pathetic conference.

A team anchored by guys pushing their late 30's while playing on a super team....:roll:

How does that even go 7 in the first place.
Same way you go 7 with Yao-less Rockets.

In a factual context that team was a significantly better defensive squad than the 2010 team. Doesn't matter at that point about age, if they're performing well.

Defensive rating, bro .... Defensive rating.

[TheGreatDeraj]

They were the #1 ranked defense. Doesn't sound washed up yet.

2012 Celtics 98.0 DEF rating
2010 Celtics 103.8 DEF rating

Doe?

ha that's a laugh

No idea how DEF rating is calculated, but clearly it needs some revision

2010 Celtics were obviously superior to 2012 Celtics defensively

Furtheremore, Celtics weren't even a contender that year...the only reason they made it to the ECF is because they played the Hawks and then the 76ers

[Black and White]

Beast game, I remember yelling at the tv, the dude just went off

[SamuraiSWISH]

ha that's a laugh

No idea how DEF rating is calculated, but clearly it needs some revision

2010 Celtics were obviously superior to 2012 Celtics defensively
Nope, its accurate.

2004 Bulls defense = 2010 Celtics defense

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Nope cold facts say they were significantly better. A GOAT performance by LeBron.
Last night u said LeBron was runner up for GOAT:applause:
tonight you defend him against tards:applause:
see the light son, its shining bright and strong, right into your heart:cheers:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Last night u said LeBron was runner up for GOAT:applause:
tonight you defend him against tards:applause:
see the light son, its shining bright and strong, right into your heart:cheers:
You've been here a little over a month. I've claimed LeBron is the 2nd best player I've ever seen since as way back on ISH as 2008.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

You've been here a little over a month. I've claimed LeBron is the 2nd best player I've ever seen since as way back on ISH as 2008.
if lurked for over a year but the only time registration was open i fcked it up:roll: :roll:
thats why i already know everyone without being an al:applause:

[fpliii]

Just added those MJ games.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Just added those MJ games.
Thanks. I actually meant game 5 for Jordan in the '92 Finals. My mistake. Can you also add MJs game 2, 3, and 4 from the ECSF in '90? MJs game 1, and 3 vs the Heat in 1992 as well?

[TheGreatDeraj]

Nope, its accurate.

2004 Bulls defense = 2010 Celtics defense

Let's compare:

- Brandon Bass instead of Kendrick Perkins
-Pietrus/Hollins off the bench instead of Tony Allen/Rasheed Wallace
-the core players being older and rapidly declining
-vastly inferior rebounding team

please tell me how 2012 Celtics could possibly be the better defensive team.

2012 Celtics have the better DEF rating, but a better DEF rating =/= better a defensive team

DEF rating = mathematical formula

[Warfan]

Let's compare:

- Brandon Bass instead of Kendrick Perkins
-Pietrus/Hollins off the bench instead of Tony Allen/Rasheed Wallace
-the core players being older and rapidly declining
-vastly inferior rebounding team

please tell me how 2012 Celtics could possibly be the better defensive team.

2012 Celtics have the better DEF rating, but a better DEF rating =/= better a defensive team

DEF rating = mathematical formula

:facepalm u dont get it do you?

[tpols]

ha that's a laugh

No idea how DEF rating is calculated, but clearly it needs some revision

2010 Celtics were obviously superior to 2012 Celtics defensively

Furtheremore, Celtics weren't even a contender that year...the only reason they made it to the ECF is because they played the Hawks and then the 76ers

No.. they werent.


The 2010 Celtics were better offensively than the 2012 Celtics.. 2010 C's had a 108 o-rating and 2012 had a 103 o-rating.. 2010 C's still had a somehwhat end of prime-ish Ray and Pierce which made their offense more potent.. but they have been completely washed up since 2011.

2012 Celtics were winning on the back of their defense and saw a major resurgence defensively for KG.. who went from a 15/7 player in 2010 to a 19/10 player in 2012..


So yes.. Brans performance is certainly legendary. 2012 Celtics are one of the more underrated defensive teams.. by that point all offense was gone and they were winning mostly on defense and grit.

Of course Kob'es had a 48/16/3 game against a similarly tough defensive opponent in the 99 d-rating ranked kings.. who also had a top offense in addition to their defense. So lets not act like its the best performance ever..

[fpliii]

Thanks. I actually meant game 5 for Jordan in the '92 Finals. My mistake. Can you also add MJs game 2, 3, and 4 from the ECSF in '90? MJs game 1, and 3 vs the Heat in 1992 as well?
Added.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The 2010 Celtics are remembered as better than what they were because they "turned it on" in the playoffs especially defensively.


So the 2010 Celtics are the second-most improved playoff team ever, having tacked on +7.8 points of estimated efficiency differential to what you would expect their performance to be in the playoffs. However, that's a distant 2nd place behind the 2001 Lakers, still owners of the most improbable postseason run in NBA history: the '01 Lakers essentially went from a good but not great team during the regular-season to arguably the greatest team of all time during the playoffs!

Past performance is still the best predictor of future results, of course -- but as these teams showed, it's hardly a 100% foolproof method of predicting playoff success.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=6237

[TheGreatDeraj]

No.. they werent.


The 2010 Celtics were better offensively than the 2012 Celtics.. 2010 C's had a 108 o-rating and 2012 had a 103 o-rating.. 2010 C's still had a somehwhat end of prime-ish Ray and Pierce which made their offense more potent.. but they have been completely washed up since 2011.

2012 Celtics were winning on the back of their defense and saw a major resurgence defensively for KG.. who went from a 15/7 player in 2010 to a 19/10 player in 2012..


So yes.. Brans performance is certainly legendary. 2012 Celtics are one of the more underrated defensive teams.. by that point all offense was gone and they were winning mostly on defense and grit.

Of course Kob'es had a 48/16/3 game against a similarly tough defensive opponent in the 99 d-rating ranked kings.. who also had a top offense in addition to their defense. So lets not act like its the best performance ever..

I just posted again right above you, read that if you want to know why I think 2010>2012

Yes, the 2010 Celtics were better offensively too, which(along with being a better rebounding team) boosted there defensive, by forcing the defense to attack a set defense more often

Also, the 2012 celtics weren't really back to their winning ways it was a low year for the NBA and the celtics as well who were 39-27 which extrapolated to 82 game season is about 48 wins.

Celtics were only a 4 seed. They wouldn't have made it the the ECF had the #1 seed Bulls lost there best player and then lost the the 8 seed 76ers.

[juju151111]

The 2010 Celtics are remembered as better than what they were because they "turned it on" in the playoffs especially defensively.



http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=6237
So playoffs dtrg should be used? and Phil Jackson already noted why the change in the Lakers happened. Kobe got injured and saw what Shaq led Lakers were doing without him. He came back and started team ball which allowed the Lakers to play to their full potential.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I prefer DRtg relative to league average. That way you adjust based on scoring environment in a given year. Here's a spreadsheet with all the relative numbers:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?pli=1&key=0At9OxyY2Zhw6dF80TGxJQXliY0RlcXlxSHJXdGhjV3c&type=view&gid=3&f=true&colid0=2&filterstr0=NBA&sortcolid=-1&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=1339

I still dont agree with this. Take two identical offensive performances one was against a league average defense of 04 and the other of 88. I think clearly the performance in 04 was better. Don't you?

[tpols]

I just posted again right above you, read that if you want to know why I think 2010>2012

Yes, the 2010 Celtics were better offensively too, which(along with being a better rebounding team) boosted there defensive, by forcing the defense to attack a set defense more often

Also, the 2012 celtics weren't really back to their winning ways it was a low year for the NBA and the celtics as well who were 39-27 which extrapolated to 82 game season is about 48 wins.

What? 2012 C's ran at a slower pace.. KG had a major resurgence and was always the reason for the defense peaking.. he was much better in 2012 and the whole team was bought in on the defensive side of the ball.

The numbers dont lie.. Yao showed above how 2010 C's utrned it up in the playoffs which they did.. but 2012 C's had dominant defense.

They were the 27th ranked offensive team on pace for 50 wins is what you're saying?? Thats dominant defense

[fpliii]

I still dont agree with this. Take two identical offensive performances one was against a league average defense of 04 and the other of 88. I think clearly the performance in 04 was better. Don't you?
For this, where we're comparing individual performances based on the scoring environment faced, I think using straight DRtg is fine. But if we're trying to figure out how good of a team defense a given squad put together (which is a separate exercise), the relative DRtg is superior since it adjusts for rules and other league-wide trends (especially when attempting to credit defensive anchors).

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So playoffs dtrg should be used? and Phil Jackson already noted why the change in the Lakers happened. Kobe got injured and saw what Shaq led Lakers were doing without him. He came back and started team ball which allowed the Lakers to play to their full potential.

Probably of the combination of the two should be used though I would weigh much more heavily on the regular season numbers due to sample size.

Thanks for pointing out that is what the play of Kobe that was the catalyst for that epic run but I don't think that's particularly relevant for this discussion.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

For this, where we're comparing individual performances based on the scoring environment faced, I think using straight DRtg is fine. But if we're trying to figure out how good of a team defense a given squad put together (which is a separate exercise), the relative DRtg is superior since it adjusts for rules and other league-wide trends (especially when attempting to credit defensive anchors).

I agree with that as well. I don't know how many times I tried to explain that.

[fpliii]

I agree with that as well. I don't know how many times I tried to explain that.
:cheers:

[juju151111]

Probably of the combination of the two should be used though I would weigh much more heavily on the regular season numbers due to sample size.

Thanks for pointing out that is what the play of Kobe that was the catalyst for that epic run but I don't think that's particularly relevant for this discussion.
Yep Kobe wasn't playing to his potential. Phil went in depth on this in his book/interviews. He got frustrated with Kobe and knew he could be better. Kobe was emerging from being 2nd fiddle to Shaq in 00. He got the green light and he went nuts with his Ego. Basically Kobe hindered his team instead of improving it until he saw it himself. Them winning without him probably hurt his Ego.

[MichaelCorleone]

Could name at least 5 Jordan performances alone that tops this. I'll let you live tho! Top 20 maybe!
List those 5 better performances please.

[TheGreatDeraj]

What? 2012 C's ran at a slower pace.. KG had a major resurgence and was always the reason for the defense peaking.. he was much better in 2012 and the whole team was bought in on the defensive side of the ball.

The numbers dont lie.. Yao showed above how 2010 C's utrned it up in the playoffs which they did.. but 2012 C's had dominant defense.

They were the 27th ranked offensive team on pace for 50 wins is what you're saying?? Thats dominant defense


Sorry what I meant to say was
Yes, the 2010 Celtics were better offensively too, which(along with being a better rebounding team) boosted there defensive, by forcing the opponent's offense to attack a set defense more often

Along with the fact that the Celtics had better defensive players in 2010 they also rebounded and played better offense which means that the opponents offense was taking the ball from out of bounds after a made basket rather than rebounding a miss and attacking the Celtics defense in transition.

The numbers don't lie, but people misinterpret data and come to conclusions that are not correct...for example...Some people misinterpret the Celtics coasting in the 2010 regular season and therefore had a lower DEF rating and come to the conclusion that they were a worse defensive team. However, they were a actually a better defensive team than the numbers indicated and they proved it by "turning it on" when it actually mattered.

48 wins as a 4 seed is not that great especially in the lull of the NBA 2012 season. As you mentioned they slowed their pace down in 2012 which probably statistically boosted their defense.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Yep Kobe wasn't playing to his potential. Phil went in depth on this in his book/interviews. He got frustrated with Kobe and knew he could be better. Kobe was emerging from being 2nd fiddle to Shaq in 00. He got the green light and he went nuts with his Ego. Basically Kobe hindered his team instead of improving it until he saw it himself. Them winning without him probably hurt his Ego.

I already congratulated Kobe for being the driving force behind one of the most dominant teams of all time. What more do you want me to say? :confusedshrug:

[juju151111]

Sorry what I meant to say was

Along with the fact that the Celtics had better defensive players in 2010 they also rebounded and played better offense which means that they opponents offense was taking the ball from out of bounds after a made basket rather than rebounding a miss and attacking the Celtics defense in transition.

The numbers don't lie, but people misinterpret data and come to conclusions that are not correct...for example...Some people misinterpret the Celtics coasting in the 2010 regular season and thus had a lower DEF rating and come to the conclusion they were a worse defensive team. But they were a better team that the numbers indicated and they proved it by them "turning it on" when it actually mattered.

48 wins as a 4 seed is not that great especially in the lull of the NBA 2012 season. As you mentioned they slowed their pace down in 2012 which probably statistically boosted their defense.
Exactly. How the hell is a injury plagued roster who is two years older be better? Makes no sense. That's what happens in shorten seasons. Like the Knicks going to the finals with no Ewing.

[MichaelCorleone]

People don't mention enough that it happened to be AN ELIMINATION GAME.

Definitely top 5 playoffs performances of all time, it's up there with Magic's triple double in the finals.

[juju151111]

I already congratulated Kobe for being the driving force behind one of the most dominant teams of all time. What more do you want me to say? :confusedshrug:
No The team was great without him, but with him playing right, the Lakers were top 7 team of all-time. Shaq was the driving force. He saw what Shaq was doing with his team. The real MVP of 01. The best player in the league. He was the driving force.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

No The team was great without him, but with him playing right, the Lakers were top 7 team of all-time. Shaq was the driving force. He saw what Shaq was doing with his team. The real MVP of 01. The best player in the league. He was the driving force.

:roll:

[MichaelCorleone]

No The team was great without him, but with him playing right, the Lakers were top 7 team of all-time. Shaq was the driving force. He saw what Shaq was doing with his team. The real MVP of 01. The best player in the league. He was the driving force.
:lol :facepalm

[SamuraiSWISH]

fpliii doing work, thanks bud. Is there a separate rating for playoff Defensive Rating?

All jest aside, I think hanging one's hat alone on sometimes very flawed defensive ratings, let alone across eras with different style of play, is a huge mistake. It's not the major determining factor in a quality opponent.

I know the 2010 Celtics were better in the playoffs than the regular season. Context of actually watching told me the old ass Boston Celtics conserved themselves to turn it on late headed into the post season. The '92 Knicks were even better defensively in the playoffs as well.

Some more games I'd like to see added, if you get the time:

Kobe's game 2 v.s. the 2008 Nuggets (1st round)
Kobe's game 5 v.s. the 2006 Suns (1st round)
Wade's game 4 v.s. the 2010 Celtics (1st round)
Jordan's game 2 v.s. the '97 Bullets (1st round)
Jordan's game 5 v.s. the '93 Suns (Finals)
Jordan's game 4 v.s. the '93 Suns (Finals)
Jordan's game 2 v.s. the '93 Suns (Finals)
Jordan's game 3 v.s. the '93 Hawks (1st round)
Jordan's game 4 v.s. the '90 Pistons (ECF)
Jordan's game 3 v.s. the '90 Pistons (ECF)
Jordan's game 3 v.s. the '89 Pistons (ECF)
Jordan's game 6 v.s. the '89 Knicks (ECsF)
Jordan's game 4 v.s. the '89 Knicks (ECsF)
Jordan's game 3 v.s. the '89 Knicks (ECsF)
Jordan's game 4 v.s. the '88 Cavaliers (1st round)
Jordan's game 2 v.s. the '88 Cavaliers (1st round)
Jordan's game 1 v.s. the '88 Cavaliers (1st round)

[tpols]

Exactly. How the hell is a injury plagued roster who is two years older be better? Makes no sense. That's what happens in shorten seasons. Like the Knicks going to the finals with no Ewing.

What do you mean 'be better'? If were talking just overall who was better its 2010.. because they still had a decent offense.

2012 had one of the worst offenses in the league yet they were one game away from going to the Finals? What were they running on? Subject is defense, right?


Injury plagued roster true.. but if it means KG is going to play like a DPOY 20/10 big man for the first time since 08, which is not a coincidence, its not going to matter. Anytime KG is somewhat healthy and clicking, the defense is going to be elite. 2012 C's were a great defense anyway you slice it. Id take them for that side of the ball over 2010, but obviously with Pierce and Ray Allen being way better in 2010 the C offense was better back then making them a better overall package. But thats because of the massive difference in offense, not defense

[juju151111]

:roll:
First 10 mins http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly1MRr5PDAU stupid ass Kobe trying to hard to be like his Favorite player Mj, but failing horribly. Continue d to failed horribly for the next 13 years trying to catch up to MJ. Sad really

[juju151111]

What do you mean 'be better'? If were talking just overall who was better its 2010.. because they still had a decent offense.

2012 had one of the worst offenses in the league yet they were one game away from going to the Finals? What were they running on? Subject is defense, right?


Injury plagued roster true.. but if it means KG is going to play like a DPOY 20/10 big man for the first time since 08, which is not a coincidence, its not going to matter. Anytime KG is somewhat healthy and clicking, the defense is going to be elite. 2012 C's were a great defense anyway you slice it. Id take them for that side of the ball over 2010, but obviously with Pierce and Ray Allen being way better in 2010 the C offense was better back then making them a better overall package. But thats because of the massive difference in offense, not defense
Injury riddled season plus shorten season. The games didn't start till like December if I remember right. Shit like that happens in seasons like that. The whole Celtics squad was injured not just Piece and Allen. KG just had more of a workload then he had in previous years. Don't give me that bull about KG was trying harder in 12 then 10. KG plays crazy every game and him getting two years older doesn't make sense.

[fpliii]

fpliii doing work, thanks bud. Is there a separate rating for playoff Defensive Rating?

All jest aside, I think hanging one's hat alone on sometimes very flawed defensive ratings, let alone across eras with different style of play, is a huge mistake. It's not the major determining factor in a quality opponent.

I know the 2010 Celtics were better in the playoffs than the regular season. Context of actually watching told me the old ass Boston Celtics conserved themselves to turn it on late headed into the post season. The '92 Knicks were even better defensively in the playoffs as well.

Some more games I'd like to see added, if you get the time:

Kobe's game 2 v.s. the 2008 Nuggets (1st round)
Kobe's game 5 v.s. the 2006 Suns (1st round)
Wade's game 4 v.s. the 2010 Celtics (1st round)
Jordan's game 2 v.s. the '97 Bullets (1st round)
Jordan's game 5 v.s. the '93 Suns (Finals)
Jordan's game 4 v.s. the '93 Suns (Finals)
Jordan's game 2 v.s. the '93 Suns (Finals)
Jordan's game 3 v.s. the '93 Hawks (1st round)
Jordan's game 4 v.s. the '90 Pistons (ECF)
Jordan's game 3 v.s. the '90 Pistons (ECF)
Jordan's game 3 v.s. the '89 Pistons (ECF)
Jordan's game 6 v.s. the '89 Knicks (ECsF)
Jordan's game 4 v.s. the '89 Knicks (ECsF)
Jordan's game 3 v.s. the '89 Knicks (ECsF)
Jordan's game 4 v.s. the '88 Cavaliers (1st round)
Jordan's game 2 v.s. the '88 Cavaliers (1st round)
Jordan's game 1 v.s. the '88 Cavaliers (1st round)
I'll try and add those tomorrow. I need to figure out how to fix it somehow, the results are pretty wonky.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I'll try and add those tomorrow. I need to figure out how to fix it somehow, the results are pretty wonky.
K, thanks for all your hard work. Comments on the quote below?


As you mentioned they slowed their pace down in 2012 which probably statistically boosted their defense.
BINGO. The real difference, and my point. Not to be always confused w/ better defense.

[tpols]

Injury riddled season plus shorten season. The games didn't start till like December if I remember right. Shit like that happens in seasons like that. The whole Celtics squad was injured not just Piece and Allen. KG just had more of a workload then he had in previous years. Don't give me that bull about KG was trying harder in 12 then 10. KG plays crazy every game and him getting two years older doesn't make sense.

15/7 to 19/10 in the playoffs with a notable resurgence in defensive effectiveness.. KG was playing true Center in 2012 with a small PF next to him.. in 2010 they had Perkins. KG's per 36 stats are better as well.

There's no way you can slice it differently.. '12 KG was better in the playoffs than '10 KG. Of course he gave 100% effort in both runs.. but he was still better in 2012..

[MichaelCorleone]

A thread appreciating Lebron's epic performance and we have a circle-jerk of Jordan's games that happened decades ago.:facepalm

Talk about derailing...

[tpols]

Sorry what I meant to say was

Along with the fact that the Celtics had better defensive players in 2010 they also rebounded and played better offense which means that the opponents offense was taking the ball from out of bounds after a made basket rather than rebounding a miss and attacking the Celtics defense in transition.

The numbers don't lie, but people misinterpret data and come to conclusions that are not correct...for example...Some people misinterpret the Celtics coasting in the 2010 regular season and therefore had a lower DEF rating and come to the conclusion that they were a worse defensive team. However, they were a actually a better defensive team than the numbers indicated and they proved it by "turning it on" when it actually mattered.

48 wins as a 4 seed is not that great especially in the lull of the NBA 2012 season. As you mentioned they slowed their pace down in 2012 which probably statistically boosted their defense.

Of course it did.. I agree 100%. Slower pace makes defenses more effective. It means longer possesions and more halfcourt, stationary play. Less transition and easy buckets. More physicality and heavy screen setting to wear opponents down.


Why do people act like a slower pace isnt going to lead to a better defense? Just like a higher pace allows for more easy buckets and opportunities to attack a non-set defense, a slower pace allows a defense to sit back and force the team to beat them in a grind it out style game.

[juju151111]

15/7 to 19/10 in the playoffs with a notable resurgence in defensive effectiveness.. KG was playing true Center in 2012 with a small PF next to him.. in 2010 they had Perkins. KG's per 36 stats are better as well.

There's no way you can slice it differently.. '12 KG was better in the playoffs than '10 KG. Of course he gave 100% effort in both runs.. but he was still better in 2012..
Like I said it was a shorter season with player s coming out of shape and different factors.

[fpliii]

K, thanks for all your hard work. Comments on the quote below?


As you mentioned they slowed their pace down in 2012 which probably statistically boosted their defense
BINGO. The real difference, and my point. Not to be always confused w/ better defense.
As I said before to YMF, raw DRtg here isn't intended to tell us how good the defense was, but rather to give us an idea of the scoring environment (since points scored by an individual player are a big part of the calculation).

If we want to compare the quality of defenses, then relative DRtg is better:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?pli=1&key=0At9OxyY2Zhw6dF80TGxJQXliY0RlcXlxSHJXdGhjV3c&type=view&gid=3&f=true&colid0=2&filterstr0=NBA&sortcolid=-1&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=1339

Now, slowing down could boost their defense, but only if they were more effective. The formula is:

DRtg = points allowed / 100 possessions

if you can reduce the number of possessions, it will benefit your DRtg only if you allow fewer points rate-wise. If you're not defending each possession better at a slower pace, it will not improve your DRtg.

Again though, raw DRtg, which is what we're discussing here, is used to qualify the scoring environment. Not the strengths of team defenses.

[juju151111]

As I said before to YMF, raw DRtg here isn't intended to tell us how good the defense was, but rather to give us an idea of the scoring environment (since points scored by an individual player are a big part of the calculation).

If we want to compare the quality of defenses, then relative DRtg is better:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?pli=1&key=0At9OxyY2Zhw6dF80TGxJQXliY0RlcXlxSHJXdGhjV3c&type=view&gid=3&f=true&colid0=2&filterstr0=NBA&sortcolid=-1&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=1339

Now, slowing down could boost their defense, but only if they were more effective. The formula is:

DRtg = points allowed / 100 possessions

if you can reduce the number of possessions, it will benefit your DRtg only if you allow fewer points rate-wise. If you're not defending each possession better at a slower pace, it will not improve your DRtg.

Again though, raw DRtg, which is what we're discussing here, is used to qualify the scoring environment. Not the strengths of team defenses.
Makes sense:applause:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Of course it did.. I agree 100%. Slower pace makes defenses more effective. It means longer possesions and more halfcourt, stationary play. Less transition and easy buckets. More physicality and heavy screen setting to wear opponents down.


Why do people act like a slower pace isnt going to lead to a better defense? Just like a higher pace allows for more easy buckets and opportunities to attack a non-set defense, a slower pace allows a defense to sit back and force the team to beat them in a grind it out style game.

A slow pace doesn't make an effective defense. An effective defense can play a slow pace. Think about it. What's going to happen if you and four of your buddies go against an NBA team with the strategy to have a slow pace thus an effective defense. The NBA team is going to score on you at will quickly. Your desired pace isn't going to do jack shit for defense. But if you were actually all NBA defenders then you could play the full 24 seconds without giving up an easy look early thus resulting in a slow pace.

[fpliii]

I weighted the defensive elements by opponent ORtg, but the formula is still broken. We need to figure out how to handle different rounds in the playoffs.

But anyhow, I've been looking at this thing on and off since my lunch break today, I'm done for now. I'll give it another shot tomorrow maybe.

[chazzy]

Just for some context - offenses were down league wide because of the lockout and compressed schedule, so DRTGs were skewed in 2012. Still a great defense but I don't think they were quite as good as their 2010 playoff selves. Pierce sprained his MCL in the playoffs too.

[MichaelCorleone]

Kobe stans trying to downplay Lebron's epic HISTORIC performance which Kobe has none of. Pathetic.:oldlol: :facepalm

[juju151111]

Just for some context - offenses were down league wide because of the lockout and compressed schedule, so DRTGs were skewed in 2012. Still a great defense but I don't think they were quite as good as their 2010 playoff selves. Pierce sprained his MCL in the playoffs too.
Exactly, that team was freaking injury plagued like no other. It's rediculous to think they got better defensive ly the more they got injured.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Just for some context - offenses were down league wide
Sounds like '98 - 2005.

[DonDadda59]

Defensive Rating doe ... it's the most important determining factor in an opponents total quality.

Yao Ming's Left Foot poisoned your well I see :lol

According to DRTG, the 70s was BY FAR the greatest defensive era in NBA History, not even close. You can pick a year from that decade and find like 5 teams>any defense from the modern era. True story. So if you're looking for a GOAT playoff performance, it went down in the disco era :pimp:

Also, DRTG tells me that Manu Ginobli is a top 5 defensive player in the modern era. Go figure :lol

[juju151111]

Yao Ming's Left Foot poisoned your well I see :lol

According to DRTG, the 70s was BY FAR the greatest defensive era in NBA History, not even close. You can pick a year from that decade and find like 5 teams>any defense from the modern era. True story. So if you're looking for a GOAT playoff performance, it went down in the disco era :pimp:

Also, DRTG tells me that Manu Ginobli is a top 5 defensive player in the modern era. Go figure :lol
If the 80s was the best defensive era then that means great players from the 70s are way better then the Magic,Mj,Bird etc....

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Are you clowns intentionally obtuse or just morons?

[DonDadda59]

If the 80s was the best defensive era then that means great players from the 70s are way better then the Magic,Mj,Bird etc....

I'll just put it this way...

Kareem Abdul Jabbar in the '73-74 Season faced these teams in the playoffs:

LA Lakers (96.6 DRTG) Cap drop 30 PPG on them
Chicago Bulls (93.6 DRTG) Kareem put 35 on their heads en route to a sweep
Boston Celtics (95.1 DRTG) Averaged 33/12/5 (52% FG)

That's just one postseason in the life of young Kareem. And people are bragging about some bum ass 98 DRTG team? :kobe:

[juju151111]

I'll just put it this way...

Kareem Abdul Jabbar in the '73-74 Season faced these teams in the playoffs:

LA Lakers (96.6 DRTG) Cap drop 30 PPG on them
Chicago Bulls (93.6 DRTG) Kareem put 35 on their heads en route to a sweep
Boston Celtics (95.1 DRTG) Averaged 33/12/5 (52% FG)

That's just one postseason in the life of young Kareem. And people are bragging about some bum ass 98 DRTG team? :kobe:
How could people compare Shaq and Duncan to that God?

[juju151111]

Are you clowns intentionally obtuse or just morons?
Those 70s players would destroy players today really. Shit crazy. Walton would probably avg 30ppg today. He amazing.

[DonDadda59]

Those 70s players would destroy players today really. Shit crazy. Walton would probably avg 30ppg today. He amazing.

Only 30? DRTG says Bill Walton would be a 40/15/10 player today. Just look at his '77 MVP/championship playoff run:

Chicago Bulls (97.4 DRTG)
Denver Nuggets (96.1 DRTG)
Los Angeles Lakers (98.9 DRTG)
Philadelphia 76ers (97.6 DRTG)

Shaq never faced a run against defenses that unreal, not even close. Walton>>>>>Shaq.

I sent you back to the drawing board with this Bean apologist nonsense like a year ago, foot. Time to get more creative with the excuses brah :lol

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Those 70s players would destroy players today really. Shit crazy. Walton would probably avg 30ppg today. He amazing.

So morons it is...

Kareem being a highly efficient scorer during an era of basketball where high efficiency was hard to come by leaguewide is incredibly impressive. It is part of the reason why he is the greatest. What about this is hard for you to accept?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Only 30? DRTG says Bill Walton would be a 40/15/10 player today. Just look at his '77 MVP/championship playoff run:

Chicago Bulls (97.4 DRTG)
Denver Nuggets (96.1 DRTG)
Los Angeles Lakers (98.9 DRTG)
Philadelphia 76ers (97.6 DRTG)

Shaq never faced a run against defenses that unreal, not even close. Walton>>>>>Shaq.

I sent you back to the drawing board with this Bean apologist nonsense like a year ago, foot. Time to get more creative with the excuses brah :lol

:biggums:

Shaq and Kobe faced a better foursome in 04

04 Rockets 99.0
04 Spurs 94.1
04 Wolves 99.7
04 Pistons 95.4

I have no idea what you are blabbering about...

[Mr. Incredible]

Without biased officiating the Celtics win in 5.
Lol is that you????

[Mr. Incredible]

:lol :roll:

Anyone who says celtics 2012 >> 2010 have ZERO understating of basketball.

http://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1xcq7b/carlos_boozer_is_ranked_13th_this_season_in/

Boozer >> Ibaka

lol


This.


Lebron beat a washed up celtics with a huge amount of refs help, beat the youngest team ever in the finals with a huge amount of refs help, and last year beat the oldest team ever in the finals with the help of popovich\ray allen.


that legacy.Edited
Post. Lol. How are those Knicks doing?

[DonDadda59]

:biggums:

Shaq and Kobe faced a better foursome in 04

04 Rockets 99.0
04 Spurs 94.1
04 Wolves 99.7
04 Pistons 95.4

I have no idea what you are blabbering about...

And all that happened was one of the worst finals performances ever :oldlol:

So bad, Mark Cuban had to go to the league to change the rules to make sure what happened to Bean never happened to anyone else. Bill Walton won the championship and finals MVP doe. Bill Walton>>>

[juju151111]

So morons it is...

Kareem being a highly efficient scorer during an era of basketball where high efficiency was hard to come by leaguewide is incredibly impressive. It is part of the reason why he is the greatest. What about this is hard for you to accept?
I never said he wasn't I was agreeing with you. Great players from the 70s would destroy Magic, Bird,Hakeem Shaq etc.... I'm agreeing with you:applause:

[juju151111]

:biggums:

Shaq and Kobe faced a better foursome in 04

04 Rockets 99.0
04 Spurs 94.1
04 Wolves 99.7
04 Pistons 95.4

I have no idea what you are blabbering about...
Too bad Kobe played like a scrub vs the Pistons. Unlike Goat Bill Walton.

[DonDadda59]

I never said he wasn't I was agreeing with you. Great players from the 70s would destroy Magic, Bird,Hakeem Shaq etc.... I'm agreeing with you:applause:

This, I don't know why this dude is so mad right now. We're all on the same team. DRTG is the end all be all. 70s defense>>>>>>

And him bringing up the Lakers in '04 is shockingly hilarious. How many sub 40% chucking performances did Bean have that one postseason while freezing out the Diesel? :wtf:

He certainly was no John Havlicek.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

If you only two could combine your brain cells and form one coherent thought. :facepalm

[DonDadda59]

If you only two could combine your brain cells and form one coherent thought. :facepalm

No need to be salty bro. The pain will heal with time. Back to the drawing board (again) :cheers:

http://doubledribble.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/mingyao.jpg

[juju151111]

This, I don't know why this dude is so mad right now. We're all on the same team. DRTG is the end all be all. 70s defense>>>>>>

And him bringing up the Lakers in '04 is shockingly hilarious. How many sub 40% chucking performances did Bean have that one postseason while freezing out the Diesel? :wtf:

He certainly was no John Havlicek.
Don't ever mention Kobe with John. On a yearly basis he faced tougher defense. League wide changed in 05 to help perimeter players like Kobe. John never had that help. He was true to form. Today buttercup defense he probably avgrges something like 25 on 54% on a off year.

[juju151111]

If you only two could combine your brain cells and form one coherent thought. :facepalm
Magic and Bird would definitely failed miserably and are overrated pieces of crap. Bird struggles slightly in the playoffs from time to time. He would get annihilated in the 70s.

[Simple Jack]

You've been here a little over a month. I've claimed LeBron is the 2nd best player I've ever seen since as way back on ISH as 2008.

You know that opinion changed drastically as you are clearly a prisoner of the moment. I must have quoted 10+ threads of you stating the exact opposite, ultimately making him sound like some scrub the other year. **** outta here.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Yao Ming's Left Foot poisoned your well I see :lol
YMF is a delusional Kobe Stan yearning to be Kate Faber. I've been sarcastic about defensive rating from the jump. It's the whole basis of his warped agenda that Kobe > Everyone ... Including the man he desperately tries to be like.

At times came close, he reminded us in glimpses but still wasn't ultimately as great as Jordan. He came up just short.

With that said Bron's game 6 vs Boston is still one of the greatest playoff performance I've ever witnessed. That I'm most certainly not being sarcastic about. LeBron has had a few playoff performances on par or better than anything I've seen from any player.

2013 Finals, Game 7
2012 ECF, Game 6
2007 ECF, Game 5
2008 ECSF, Game 7
2013 ECF, Game 7
2012 ECSF, Game 4

Plus his whole ECF in 2009

[sportjames23]

Magic and Bird would definitely failed miserably and are overrated pieces of crap. Bird struggles slightly in the playoffs from time to time. He would get annihilated in the 70s.


I can't even...:facepalm

[sportjames23]

YMF is a delusional Kobe Stan yearning to be Kate Faber.


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Marlo_Stanfield]

YMF is a delusional Kobe Stan yearning to be Kate Faber. I've been sarcastic about defensive rating from the jump. It's the whole basis of his warped agenda that Kobe > Everyone ... Including the man he desperately tries to be like.

At times came close, he reminded us in glimpses but still wasn't ultimately as great as Jordan. He came up just short.

With that said Bron's game 6 vs Boston is still one of the greatest playoff performance I've ever witnessed. That I'm most certainly not being sarcastic about. LeBron has had a few playoff performances on par or better than anything I've seen from any player.

2013 Finals, Game 7
2012 ECF, Game 6
2007 ECF, Game 5
2008 ECSF, Game 7
2013 ECF, Game 7
2012 ECSF, Game 4

Plus his whole ECF in 2009
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Leonaro-DiCaprio-Zoom-in-and-Nod-while-smoking-Django-Unchained.gif

[Nevaeh]

In all seriousness, DRtg is only overrated when trying to compare it across eras....and making an argument that a teams defensive rating =/= better team (you need a balance of both, obviously, although I'd prefer my teams to play better defense than vice versa).

Not to mention that the game is played on 2 sides of the ball, something that seems to get lost on Agenda seekers like YMF, but who'll conveniently remember how great offensively some of of those 2000 Laker teams were, when he needs to.

How did Shaq do against the 01 Defensive Juggernaut 76ers back in the day, YMF?

:confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Not to mention that the game is played on 2 sides of the ball, something that seems to get lost on Agenda seekers like YMF, but who'll conveniently remember how great offensively some of of those 2000 Laker teams were, when he needs to.

How did Shaq do against the 01 Defensive Juggernaut 76ers back in the day, YMF?

:confusedshrug:

So one of IF not the greatest peak player of all time puts up numbers and that trumps 82 games worth of data?

I seriously wish you guys could huddle up and come up with an intelligent rebuttal. Straw man arguments are dull.

[Illuminati]

Playing on a stacked team vs a broken down shell of a champion...

http://i.imgur.com/LDV4EwI.jpg

#stacked

[SilkkTheShocker]

The Heat were called the Miami Cavaliers by Reggie Miller in the playoffs last season even :oldlol:

STACKED

[Solefade]

http://i.imgur.com/LDV4EwI.jpg

#stacked


stacked on paper doe