There is a reason Kareem isn't included in NBA's players mount rushmores

[Derivative]

Ask any NBA player who their mount rushmore is, there won't be KAJ on it. For example Kobe himself said his top four is MJ, Bird, Magic, and Bill. And other players also don't include Kareem as their all time top 5.

Because he is friggin overrated. Played his prime in the weakest era of NBA, and only started winning some rings while his Lakers team got superstacked with Magic. His only talent was longevity, never in the modern era(after 80s) was he the best player in the game.


But after, the idiots are ISH think he's #2 all time and some retards think he's #1. I am sure the NBA players(including kobe) know more than you guys.

[IncarceratedBob]

Kareem never got along with the media, which is why they prop up MJ as the GOAT even though KAJ has a legit claim at the crown

[AnaheimLakers24]

kareem > mj

[aj1987]

kareem > mj
How is Kareem better than MJ? Excluding overall stats.

[Micku]

Dr. J and Kenny Smith believe Kareem is the best player ever. I think Bill Walton too, but I could be wrong about that.

I think Gary Payton highly regard Kareem as well as the GOAT player.

But imo, there is no such thing. I believe it should be rated in tiers.

[Derivative]

Dr. J and Kenny Smith believe Kareem is the best player ever. I think Bill Walton too, but I could be wrong about that.

I think Gary Payton highly contenders Kareem as well.

that's because he's extremely sourgrapes of MJ

[Derivative]

How is Kareem better than MJ? Excluding overall stats.

MJ has always had the better overall stats than KAJ in terms of PER.

[NumberSix]

Kareem never got along with the media, which is why they prop up MJ as the GOAT even though KAJ has a legit claim at the crown
Exactly. That or, you know, The fact that MJ was flat out better than Kareem by a healthy margin.

[aj1987]

MJ has always had the better overall stats than KAJ in terms of PER.
PER is for for kids. No one gives a shit about PER. Absolutely useless piece of garbage statistic.

[Derivative]

PER is for for kids. No one gives a shit about PER. Absolutely useless piece of garbage statistic.

that's because ur too retarded to understand it.

"derrr scienze is stupeed"
"derrr computarz is for kidz"
"derrr i cant understanz complex numbarz, derr only believez in easy numberz derr"

[iamgine]

never in the modern era(after 80s) was he the best player in the game.

Only top 5 in MVP voting as a 37 years old playing in a great era.

[niko]

He's not included because there are at minimum three players (and two centers) who are absolutely better than he is. And a mount rushmore only has 4 players. So even if you are clearly Top 10 all time, he can't crack it.

That's it. Acting as if he sucks is stupid.

[Derivative]

Only top 5 in MVP voting as a 37 years old playing in a great era.


that's becuz he s a ****ing stacked team with prime magic and james worthy

[iamgine]

that's becuz he s a ****ing stacked team with prime magic and james worthy
Not really cause Mchale didn't do it with Bird.

[aj1987]

that's because ur too retarded to understand it.

"derrr scienze is stupeed"
"derrr computarz is for kidz"
"derrr i cant understanz complex numbarz, derr only believez in easy numberz derr"
According to PER, the top 10 GOAT ranking is:


1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 27.75
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Chris Paul 25.62
7. Bob Pettit* 25.35
8. Dwyane Wade 25.33
9. Neil Johnston* 24.69
10. Tim Duncan

Do you know who Neil Johnston is?

[NumberSix]

According to PER, the top 10 GOAT ranking is:


1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 27.75
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Chris Paul 25.62
7. Bob Pettit* 25.35
8. Dwyane Wade 25.33
9. Neil Johnston* 24.69
10. Tim Duncan

Do you know who Neil Johnston is?
An efficient son of a bitch.

[Derivative]

According to PER, the top 10 GOAT ranking is:


1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 27.75
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Chris Paul 25.62
7. Bob Pettit* 25.35
8. Dwyane Wade 25.33
9. Neil Johnston* 24.69
10. Tim Duncan

Do you know who Neil Johnston is?

then show me stats that show KAJ is the goat

[aj1987]

then show me stats that show KAJ is the goat
When did I say that KAJ is the GOAT :facepalm .

[fpliii]

that's because ur too retarded to understand it.

"derrr scienze is stupeed"
"derrr computarz is for kidz"
"derrr i cant understanz complex numbarz, derr only believez in easy numberz derr"
Plenty of people on this board (including myself) have went into the flaws on numerous occasions from a mathematical/statistical POV. Look up how it's calculated. Here's a start though:

The problem with the bolded is that box score numbers don't scale proportionately to minutes played or increased pace, there are diminishing returns. 15 points in 30 minutes does not translate to 20 points in 40 minutes (same for any other statistic).

Anyhow, PER (as is the case with any other all-encompassing single metric) is highly flawed. It's too closely linked to USG%, it's too far removed from TS% (both using r^2 values); it doesn't adequately measure defense though it attempts to do so; the coefficients in the (linear) model are arbitrary, and not derived from any regression analysis.

Also, PER does not exist pre-77-78:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/per.html


The calcuation of uPER obviously depends on these statistics, so here are my solutions for years when the data are missing:

Zero out three-point field goals, turnovers, blocked shots, and steals.
Set the league value of possession (VOP) equal to 1.
Set the defensive rebound percentage (DRB%) equal to 0.7.
Set player offensive rebounds (ORB) equal to 0.3 * TRB.

PER is okay if you're comparing guys in similar roles and want a quick summary. It is lazy analysis to depend on it for anything more, and can lead to incorrect conclusions.

[NumberSix]

When did I say that KAJ is the GOAT :facepalm .
July 11th 2012.

[The Iron Fist]

then show me stats that show KAJ is the goat
6 time NBA champion
3 time NCAA champion
3 time HS champion

[Genaro]

Acctualy I think players don't have that much knowledge about the history of the game to tell what era was weak. People don't include KAJ because he's not so hyped up by the media as Larry, MJ and Magic and didn't won as much as Bill.

[NumberSix]

6 time NBA champion
3 time NCAA champion
3 time HS champion
But, what about T-ball?

[BIZARRO]

Ask any NBA player who their mount rushmore is, there won't be KAJ on it. For example Kobe himself said his top four is MJ, Bird, Magic, and Bill. And other players also don't include Kareem as their all time top 5.

Because he is friggin overrated. Played his prime in the weakest era of NBA, and only started winning some rings while his Lakers team got superstacked with Magic. His only talent was longevity, never in the modern era(after 80s) was he the best player in the game.


But after, the idiots are ISH think he's #2 all time and some retards think he's #1. I am sure the NBA players(including kobe) know more than you guys.

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

Great post. Truly great post. Perfectly said. So sick of ISHer's overrating Kareem. I'll take a prime Wilt over him every day of the week.
I mean, I love Kareem and have him as #5 on my all time list...but c'mon...

Thank you for making this thread.

[dunksby]

I got Kareem over MJ as the GOAT, but that's just preference as you cannot really point out to a substantial margin of skill/impact when comparing two such greats. KAJ won in all levels (HS, College, NBA) in very different eras which makes him the best basketball player ever IMO.

[aj1987]

I got Kareem over MJ as the GOAT, but that's just preference as you cannot really point out to a substantial margin of skill/impact when comparing two such greats. KAJ won in all levels (HS, College, NBA) in very different eras which makes him the best basketball player ever IMO.
:facepalm

How do you think MJ would've fared against those '60's HS and College SG's? FFS, MJ dropped 28/7/6/2 as a ROOKIE.

[NumberSix]

I got Kareem over MJ as the GOAT, but that's just preference as you cannot really point out to a substantial margin of skill/impact when comparing two such greats. KAJ won in all levels (HS, College, NBA) in very different eras which makes him the best basketball player ever IMO.
Who cares?:confusedshrug:

Who won the D-League title last season?

[Myth]

According to PER, the top 10 GOAT ranking is:


1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 27.75
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Chris Paul 25.62
7. Bob Pettit* 25.35
8. Dwyane Wade 25.33
9. Neil Johnston* 24.69
10. Tim Duncan

Do you know who Neil Johnston is?

That is most definitely a terrible list. At least half of those players should not be in the top 10.

[KyleKong]

How is Kareem better than MJ? Excluding overall stats.

:whatever:

[dunksby]

:facepalm

How do you think MJ would've fared against those '60's HS and College SG's? FFS, MJ dropped 28/7/6/2 as a ROOKIE.
I'm sure you would have taken great pride in them had MJ gotten those honors on his resume. Again as I said the ranking is not about one being better than the other just personal preference.

[aj1987]

:whatever:
Overall as in TOTALS. Should've been more clear. KAJ's longevity was absolutely ridiculous.


I'm sure you would have taken great pride in them had MJ gotten those honors on his resume. Again as I said the ranking is not about one being better than the other just personal preference.

Not really. The competition that played against in his HS and NCAA was absolutely ridiculous.

[dunksby]

Overall as in TOTALS. Should've been more clear. KAJ's longevity was absolutely ridiculous.


Not really. The competition that played against in his HS and NCAA was absolutely ridiculous.
So you are dismissing Kareem over his choice of when to be born, that's another way of looking at it which is totally fine. :hammerhead:

[aj1987]

So you are dismissing Kareem because over his choice of when to be born, that's another way of looking at it which is totally fine. :hammerhead:
Not really. I'm just ignoring his HS and College play. People actually consider that '60's and '70's NBA was inferior to today's. I do not agree with them wholly. The HS and College BB were incredibly inferior though. That's why I completely disregard KAJ's accomplishments prior to the NBA. Taking their NBA basketball careers into perspective, MJ is clearly ahead of KAJ (ignoring longevity).

[Audio One]

How is Kareem better than MJ? Excluding overall stats.


Here's a good post from swagga, take from this what you will:


Actually there are many reasons for kareem being goat (even with all the help jordan got from media/refs/revisionist stans).
I'll chime in with a comparative analysis:

1. peak stats and playing style.

comparable, just that kareem is also a DPOY-level center and bigmen have much more impact, somebody mentioned speed being very important in the 90s+ game but in the playoffs you always have grind halfcourt basketball, bigman >> wing. Moreover, kareem was ultra mobile so if you want to consider the new rules you are actually giving kareem an advantage. Mobile big >>>>> mobile guard. Btw mobility is NOT hops for all the young monkeyballers reading this.

Also kareem got the skyhook which compares favorably with the fadeaway when you NEED to score. Also, kareem was not as ball dominant as jordan and could easily throw great outlet passes (shotime!) which means you can easily play him with more configurations, which means an advantage as a coach and winning with more teams and systems.
Jordan won in a single system with a very specific team, that's why when he aged he played like shit (chucking like mad) and was of no use on a contending team.

conclusion: kareem by a decent margin.

2. teammates.

Like lebron stans, jordan stans diss the team, jordan stans just taking it further.. dissing Scottie, Grant and especially the worm. jordan had ultra stacked teams but everybody don't talk bout them. You think bron has a stack team, look at those chicago rosters, they stack as hell and they were all in their prime (except parish).
Also GOAT player-manager coach PJ is not getting enough credit for keeping all the team in check, cuz sure as shit jordan not doing that (parish, worm, etc, well documented inccidents and dislikings)

important Stackness is always compared to the other teams in the league. If you bring oj mayo to the playground your team would be stack as hell even if oj is a
scrubby player in the nba. The jordan bulls were more stacked compared to their competition then the lebron heat(okc,spurs,indy, mavs, old boston) or kareem's lakers
(celtics,pistons, rockets, philly)

Thus even if kareem had great teammates, jordan had the better teams compared to the competition. Moreover, kareem had to share accomplishments with his teammates while the media made sure jordan got em all (The worm shoulda had at least a FMVP).

conclusion: jordan's team is very underrated, kareem is a better teammate and team anchor, jordan should not have 6 fvmps (worm/scottie arguably better series in last 2 finals)


3. longevity and playing style

plain and simple kareem's unmatched durability is underrated.
Kareem won in almost 3 different decades (71! -> 88) and went deep in the playoffs more times than jordan. Having the skills to play in different configurations made it easier to assemble teams around him.
Plus he won at every level, goat college player, etc.

Jordan: the first seasons a chucker extraordinaire, makes kobe look like magic johnson. in washington :lol. Jordan in the last finals series were he shot poorly & rodman rebounded like nuts but he was awarded fvmp by the media.. the man simply could not adapt to not shooting first, a true GOAT player would do anything needed for the win, including changing his game as he gets older.

conclusion: kareem, obviously.

4. refereeing
If you think durant or flopden be gettin calls you better look at some tape because them refs was blowin jordan harder then lecrab filipino fanboys on ish tbh.
take it from wilt: "If Michael was here right now, I would say to him: When you are so great that the league tries to change the rules in an attempt to stop you then you can claim you are the best ever. Every rule change I have seen during your career has been meant to enhance your game (such as shortened 3 point line, hand checking rules & well defined rules regarding illegal defenses)."
take it from magic from an interview: "You can't breathe to close to jordan or it's a foul"

There are numerous sites and videos that show why jordan was pampered and was more a product than a player. If you can't see this gtfo. The late 90s basketball and early 00s basketball was plagued with the products of the jordan rules and nearly destroyed NBA as a product (the corrupt refereeing scandal, the kings 2002 series, the encouragement of no fundamentals dunkers, etc)

conclusion: kareem played (physical) basketball, jordan was babied with rule changes. obvious, even the players joked about it ffs.


5. competition

which HOF in-his-prime wing/guard did MJ go against besides drexler? Magics corpse which abused him so badly in the finals that they had to put scottie on him? kevin johnson :lol ? payton ? starks :facepalm ? joe D no O? No true HOF alpha wing player to give him trouble. No kobes, no durants.
Of course we can go and detail the poor state of wing players during jordan's time but if the common monkeyballer fan don't know about sidney moncrief outplaying him even on one good leg there's little point going there.
kareem got: wilt, bill walton, parish, mchale, hakeem, moses malone, laimbeer etc That's first ballot HOF... not to mention the physcal defenders of the 80s... from which jordan of course protected.
Even lebron got KD, kobe, 2 unquestionable 1st ballot hof rivals.

6. image as a human being
MJ utter trash as a human being tbh. A true nigging chimp. (gambling, dubious father death, clashing with teammates, screwinng washington by playing and by drafting, incompetent manager, the actually forced retirement, clothing :lol :lol :lol etc etc)
Kareem may be an aloof egomaniac but he is wellspoken and behaves like a civilized human being, giving a good image to this sport.



Arguments can go on tbh but you get a majority of young chumps and old jordan stans who be like : "air jordan doe he change hands in air :bowdown: ", "his dunks enhance the swag on his shoes", "when jordan quit I could not watch basketball anymore":facepalm and the permanent brainwashing media hell bent to sell this shit as much as possible. The league went straight to shit after the 80s tbh and this jordan organized dickriding/refing was the primary reason

[50_40_90_]

and only started winning some rings while his Lakers team got superstacked





Sounds like Kobe Bryant

[inclinerator]

he is number 2 on most ppl's list

[ICONIC]

Bill Russell
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan

The real MT. Rushmore of the NBA.

Shaq
Kobe
Duncan
LeBron

MT. Rushmore of the modern era.

[dunksby]

Not really. The competition that played against in his HS and NCAA was absolutely ridiculous.


Not really. I'm just ignoring his HS and College play. People actually consider that '60's and '70's NBA was inferior to today's. I do not agree with them wholly. The HS and College BB were incredibly inferior though. That's why I completely disregard KAJ's accomplishments prior to the NBA. Taking their NBA basketball careers into perspective, MJ is clearly ahead of KAJ (ignoring longevity).
You are a great person to discuss stuff with.

[Psileas]

There is a reason Kareem isn't included in NBA's players mount rushmores

There is a reason OP preferred to make an anti-Kareem thread instead of an anti-Wilt or anti-Russell thread, although the last 2 are also omitted at times from these Mt Rushmore discussions. It's that, as he saw very recently, Kareem is the guy who's currently "stealing" more #1 GOAT votes from his idol than anyone else, and that's not to be tolerated...

[sportjames23]

kareem > mj

*pimpslaps this nikka*

[shallehalle]

that's because ur too retarded to understand it.

"derrr scienze is stupeed"
"derrr computarz is for kidz"
"derrr i cant understanz complex numbarz, derr only believez in easy numberz derr"
:oldlol:

[HurricaneKid]

MJ has always had the better overall stats than KAJ in terms of PER.

This just isn't true. His career avg is better because Kareem played until he was 40. PER is a per minute stat so, just like a HoF hitter lowering his career batting avg by hanging on well past his prime, Kareem's PER dropped substantially as he continued on to become the all-time leading scorer. In Kareem's first 12 years in the league he led the league in PER 9 times and was second 3 times. If you want a stat that accumulates over a career it is WS. And Kareem leads career WS by 36. Which is approx 2-2.5 MVP seasons.

Led the league in PER:
Kareem - 9X
MJ - 7X

2nd:
Kareem - 3X
MJ - 2X

Other
Kareem - 4th, 5th 2X, 6th
MJ - 4th

In MJs 11th best year he was outside the top 10. In Kareem's 14/15th best year (PER-wise) he won the MVP.

[Kblaze8855]

Pretty terrible topic you have here.

Just the line:

"His only talent was longevity"

...is enough to make it one of the worst ive seen lately.

[Pointguard]

The guys on the real Mount Rush were there because of their influence while they were in office. Not because they were considered the four best Presidents.

The game was on an all time low when it was in Kareem's hands. One thing he didn't have was influence.

[fpliii]

Pretty terrible topic you have here.

Just the line:

"His only talent was longevity"

...is enough to make it one of the worst ive seen lately.
Pretty much. KAJ was a beast through 81, top 5 peak/prime in league history most likely.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Because he is friggin overrated. Played his prime in the weakest era of NBA, and only started winning some rings while his Lakers team got superstacked with Magic. His only talent was longevity, never in the modern era(after 80s) was he the best player in the game.


:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[BoutPractice]

Individually he was an extraordinary force. And he had arguably the greatest tools to work with to become the GOAT.

But he never gets scrutinized for repeated failures his fellow all time greats routinely get killed for because of the titles he racked up in the 80s. His resume is not as spotless as some would have you believe.

[LAZERUSS]

Not really. I'm just ignoring his HS and College play. People actually consider that '60's and '70's NBA was inferior to today's. I do not agree with them wholly. The HS and College BB were incredibly inferior though. That's why I completely disregard KAJ's accomplishments prior to the NBA. Taking their NBA basketball careers into perspective, MJ is clearly ahead of KAJ (ignoring longevity).

Not that this is relative to the NBA topic, but KAJ played in an era of college ball in which a player HAD to either play four years (and only three at the varsity level BTW), or wait until his class graduated (like Wilt.) So, the reality was, he was facing NBA-level players in COLLEGE. My gawd, Elvin Hayes led the NBA in scoring in his ROOKIE season. Wes Unseld not only won ROY, he also won the MVP. Both of those guys would have lasted one year in college in today's NBA. And, KAJ was probably already considered a top-5 NBA center by the end of his soph season at UCLA. He certainly didn't disappoint with his rookie season, either, in which he averaged 29 ppg.

I personally rank KAJ at #5 all-time, but his NBA resume has a case for GOAT.

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, a peak KAJ, from the '70 playoffs, thru the entire 70-71 regular and post-season, and thru the '72 regular season, was as great as any player who has ever played the game.

[aj1987]

@Lazeruss, Do you think that MJ (with his athleticism and BB IQ) would not have dominated the HS and NCAA scene in the '60's? Who would've stopped him?

[The Iron Fist]

@Lazeruss, Do you think that MJ (with his athleticism and BB IQ) would not have dominated the HS and NCAA scene in the '60's? Who would've stopped him?
Jordan couldn't even make his HS team in the 70s. But he would have dominated HS and the NCAA?:roll:

[Flash31]

There is actually a simple reason why Kareem isn't included in the Mount Rushmore or goat conversations.


The media DOES NOT LIKE HIM.And he does not have a good relationship with the media.

Has absolutely 0 to do with his actual skill.It's media
relations and perception.

Oscar and Wilt had and have the same problem.

Isn't it odd that when ESPN or NBA bring up stats it's always and arbitrary date
or something.
First to score 10-20-30k points and Wilt is left out.
First to 10-20 rebounds-Wilt,Russell left out.


The only reason Bill Russell is included in any goat is 11 rings to where no matter what you can't leave him out.
West has good relationship with NBA and media and he's the logo and still working so it works.

But almost every single star from 50s,60s,70s,80s aside from Larry,Magic are disregarded.

iT'S A MEDIA THING.
kAREEM HAS THE MOST POINTS EVER,HAS 6 MVPS,6 Rings,had a 21 year career.He had the most dominating and best COLLEGE CAREER.
He was one of if not the goat basketball player in college and pros when he played.

He has the accolades and everything to back up his claim as goat.

The media and incidentally his stats get him left out of goat talk.

Bc with BR its 11 rings but team and not huge individual stats but can be goat.
With Wilt its lack of winning and bad media and HUGE STATS so left out.

Larry and Magic are NBAs league posters and brought NBA into relevance so thy're always there not to mention having jobs with NBA.

OSCAR is wiped out.


If you think about it,if Oscar,Wilt,Kareem had a better relationship with media and /or were alive--
Jordan wouldn't even come close to GOAT much less a so called consensus.

Imagine MJ having all these records and people pushing it as all time and Wilt,Kareem going NOPE.
Or Magic killing the League and Oscar going NOPE.

Then people see the real scope of everybody's legend and statuses but we don't.


The media pushes who they like and want and
Kareem,Oscar,Wilt haven't had a good relationship with the media.

The Lakers just recently got a statue for Kareem after Magic got his way before.


Media is the number one reason Kareem isn't in the talks period.

[sportjames23]

Kareem never got along with the media, which is why they prop up MJ as the GOAT even though KAJ has a legit claim at the crown


Banned for stupidity. :mad:

[oh the horror]

So according to ISHers the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 2000s are all the weakest era of basketball.

[LAZERUSS]

@Lazeruss, Do you think that MJ (with his athleticism and BB IQ) would not have dominated the HS and NCAA scene in the '60's? Who would've stopped him?

KAJ's college career DWARFs MJ's. And you could make an argument that Jordan played on more stacked teams in college, too, and yet "only" won one title, while KAJ won three in a row, and likely would have won four in a row had freshmen been allowed to play.

Kareem (Alcindor) was the greatest college player of all-time, and I could go for a considerable time explaining why, but it is not necessary. And only Wilt had a more dominant HS career.