Michael Jordan is GOAT based on all comprehensive statistic measures

[Derivative]

No one stat is perfect, but when all the variety of stats give one answer, then that answer is the fact.

PER has its uses, but it's not perfect.
Win Share has its uses, but it's not perfect.
MVP share has its uses, but it's not perfect...

But...

All time career PER:
1. Michael Jordan 27.91
2. Lebron James 27.75
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43

All time career win share/48:
1. Michael Jordan 0.2505
2. David Robinson 0.2502
3. Wilt Chamberlain 0.2480

All time career MVP share*:
1. Michael Jordan 8.138
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 6.203
3. Larry Bird 5.693

*MVP share is a career cumulative stat, Jordan had almost 2 MORE MVP shares than Kareem despite playing 4 LESS seasons

[Derivative]

Jordan is the most efficient, most impactful, and most valuable player of all time.

GOAT gonna GOAT

[CavaliersFTW]

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/--2CTEsjDuh0/T0I9TmQwEYI/AAAAAAAAC-w/SkjHEkeJMXk/s640/Cool%2520Story%2520Bro.jpg

[juju151111]

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/--2CTEsjDuh0/T0I9TmQwEYI/AAAAAAAAC-w/SkjHEkeJMXk/s640/Cool%2520Story%2520Bro.jpg
What's his playoffs stats looking like?:eek:

[AnaheimLakers24]

cool but plenty of people consider
kareem > mj

[aj1987]

cool but plenty of people consider
kareem > mj
Not really. When you eliminate the LeBron and Kobe stans, there are very few people who consider anyone other than MJ to be the GOAT.

Some posters like CavsFTW, fpliii, and a bunch of others have a legitimate argument, but an overwhelming majority have MJ as the GOAT.

[CavaliersFTW]

What's his playoffs stats looking like?:eek:
Oh you know, horrible, he wasn't dominant at all in the playoffs, or so I'm told... except....

Highest average, rebounds per game, one playoff series
32.0 - Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia vs. Boston, 1967 (160/5)
Most rebounds, game
41 - Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia vs. Boston, April 5, 1967

Most rebounds, rookie, game
35 - Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia at Boston, March 22, 1960

Most rebounds, one half
26 - Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia vs. San Francisco, April 16, 1967

[The Iron Fist]

Not really. When you eliminate the LeBron and Kobe stans, there are very few people who consider anyone other than MJ to be the GOAT.

Some posters like CavsFTW, fpliii, and a bunch of others have a legitimate argument, but an overwhelming majority have MJ as the GOAT.
6 time champion
3 time NCAA champion
3 time HS champion

Kareem>>>Jordan.
Domination at every level>>>domination at one level.

[CavaliersFTW]

Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Jordan are the guys which I personally feel have the biggest most impressive resume's for GOAT status given their abilities and bodies of work but there are actually many to choose from. Shit, I don't care if some people put Kobe, Duncan, Magic, Bird etc on their pedastals, a lot will have to do with who people saw and who they were inspired by. I've seen guys choose Dr. J as the GOAT, heck Oscar Robertson thinks Elgin is. It's a subjective opinion at the end of the day. Jordan is a default response for many people. As such, I'm generally more interested and intrigued by the people who DON'T pick Jordan, because they generally seem to be more aware of the accomplishments and abilities of the other greats of NBA history.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

6 time champion
3 time NCAA champion
3 time HS champion

Kareem>>>Jordan.
Domination at every level>>>domination at one level.
LeBron>>>

[diamenz]

LeBron>>>

why don't you go kiss lebron's nose and make it all better?

[russwest0]

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[aj1987]

6 time champion
3 time NCAA champion
3 time HS champion

Kareem>>>Jordan.
Domination at every level>>>domination at one level.
Since when does HS and College accomplishments come into consideration when it comes to top 10 GOAT lists?

[CavaliersFTW]

Since when does HS and College accomplishments come into consideration when it comes to top 10 GOAT lists?
Basketball GOAT lists can/should include just about any accolade from any level shouldn't they? Nobody specified NBA only. ABA, Eastern League, HS, NCAA, Globetrotters etc who's to say it isn't all fair game in assessing how great someone thinks their favorite player is?

[aj1987]

Basketball GOAT lists can/should include just about any accolade from any level shouldn't they? Nobody specified NBA only. ABA, Eastern League, HS, NCAA, Globetrotters etc who's to say it isn't all fair game in assessing how great someone thinks their favorite player is?
How good were KAJ's teams in HS and College, compared to MJ's teams?

[CavaliersFTW]

How good were KAJ's teams in HS and College, compared to MJ's teams?
His UCLA teams were insanely dominant, I think they still hold the record for consecutive wins. I can't comment on his HS teams.

[Asukal]

6 time champion
3 time NCAA champion
3 time HS champion

Kareem>>>Jordan.
Domination at every level>>>domination at one level.

5 of those came when he played with the GOAT PG Magic and he only bailed his team 2x in the finals. :applause:

[The Iron Fist]

Since when does HS and College accomplishments come into consideration when it comes to top 10 GOAT lists?Because its called "Greatest of ALL time". Not just greatest some of the time.

[The Iron Fist]

How good were KAJ's teams in HS and College, compared to MJ's teams?
If you have to ask, your opinion is invalid. You're trying to paint someone as the best ever, when you don't even know the qualifications of the other applicants.

[The Iron Fist]

5 of those came when he played with the GOAT PG Magic and he only bailed his team 2x in the finals. :applause:
So what did Magic do without Kareem?

Nothing.

What did Kareem do without Magic?

Turn an expansion Bucks franchise into champions in their third year of existence, his second in the league.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

LEBron brought a shit highschool team with a center that was a fat blob in the finals on national TV against the talent Academy of OAK Hill:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[aj1987]

If you have to ask, your opinion is invalid. You're trying to paint someone as the best ever, when you don't even know the qualifications of the other applicants.
Sure, KAJ had accomplishments in HS and College, but MJ's accomplishments, which he achieved at the pinnacle of the sport, deserves more praise than KAJ getting it done over a bunch of players (who would not even sniff the NCAA in the '80's) in the '60's, right? Don;t get me wrong. KAJ is a top 3 GOAT, but him getting shit done at the HS and college level in the '60's is not impressive at all.

[ICONIC]

LEBron brought a shit highschool team with a center that was a fat blob in the finals on national TV against the talent Academy of OAK Hill:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
I actually recall St Vincent St Mary choking against an all-white squad his junior year I think. :oldlol:

They were down 3 and James opted to pass instead of taking the shot himself and they ended up losing.

[Lebron23]

I actually recall St Vincent St Mary choking against an all-white squad his junior year I think. :oldlol:

They were down 3 and James opted to pass instead of taking the shot himself and they ended up losing.


Where did you get this B*ll$hit?? Far below your $tinking F@T @$$.

[ICONIC]

Where did you get this B*ll$hit?? Far below your $tinking F@T @$$.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/cavaliers/2007-06-07-lebron-prep_N.htm

I know more about your hero than you do.

:facepalm

[Lebron23]

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/cavaliers/2007-06-07-lebron-prep_N.htm

I know more about your hero than you do.

:facepalm


Back to back and reigning NBA Champion. Buhay ka pa romosexual you are a fat son of a B1tch in your early 30's. I thought you were dead.

[AirFederer]

Oh you know, horrible, he wasn't dominant at all in the playoffs, or so I'm told... except....

Highest average, rebounds per game, one playoff series
32.0 - Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia vs. Boston, 1967 (160/5)
Most rebounds, game
41 - Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia vs. Boston, April 5, 1967

Most rebounds, rookie, game
35 - Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia at Boston, March 22, 1960

Most rebounds, one half
26 - Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia vs. San Francisco, April 16, 1967

And the records for most chokes in playoff and most stat padding :biggums:

[Asukal]

So what did Magic do without Kareem?

Nothing.

What did Kareem do without Magic?

Turn an expansion Bucks franchise into champions in their third year of existence, his second in the league.

Magic bailed Kareem's ass when he was just a rookie. Kareem couldn't finish what he started.

In 91 Magic led the Lakers to the finals but lost to a greater team.

What did Kareem do? Choke job after choke job until Magic came. :rolleyes:

[ImKobe]

MJ is 6/6 in the Finals, he never lost, never allowed a Game 7 in the Finals. all-time leading career ppg, PER, 5 MVPs, 10 scoring titles, DPOY, led the league twice in steals. No one's going to eclipse him in our lifetime.

[ImKobe]

Magic bailed Kareem's ass when he was just a rookie. Kareem couldn't finish what he started.

In 91 Magic led the Lakers to the finals but lost to a greater team.

What did Kareem do? Choke job after choke job until Magic came. :rolleyes:

Yet won a regular season MVP playing alongside Magic and won the Finals MVP at 38 years old. Led the Bucks to a championship, carried The Big O to his only title.

[sportjames23]

No one stat is perfect, but when all the variety of stats give one answer, then that answer is the fact.

PER has its uses, but it's not perfect.
Win Share has its uses, but it's not perfect.
MVP share has its uses, but it's not perfect...

But...

All time career PER:
1. Michael Jordan 27.91
2. Lebron James 27.75
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43

All time career win share/48:
1. Michael Jordan 0.2505
2. David Robinson 0.2502
3. Wilt Chamberlain 0.2480

All time career MVP share*:
1. Michael Jordan 8.138
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 6.203
3. Larry Bird 5.693

*MVP share is a career cumulative stat, Jordan had almost 2 MORE MVP shares than Kareem despite playing 4 LESS seasons


:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[dunksby]

Magic bailed Kareem's ass when he was just a rookie. Kareem couldn't finish what he started.

In 91 Magic led the Lakers to the finals but lost to a greater team.

What did Kareem do? Choke job after choke job until Magic came. :rolleyes:
Stop spewing BS, that's an outright lie.

[Lebron23]

Kareem was the Lakers best player in the 1980 NBA Finals. Its sucks that he didn't play in Game 6 because he was injured. He was the lakers best player in that series.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1980_finals.html

Kareem - 33.4 ppg on 54.9 FG%, 13.6 rpg, 3.2 apg, 0.6 spg, 4.6 bpg

Magic - 21.5 ppg on 57.3 FG%, 11.2 rpg, 8.7 apg, 2.7 spg, 0.3 bpg

[Dr Hawk]

Kareem was the Lakers best player in the 1980 NBA Finals. Its sucks that he didn't play in Game 6 because he was injured. He was the lakers best player in that series.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1980_finals.html

Kareem - 33.4 ppg on 54.9 FG%, 13.6 rpg, 3.2 apg, 0.6 spg, 4.6 bpg

Magic - 21.5 ppg on 57.3 FG%, 11.2 rpg, 8.7 apg, 2.7 spg, 0.3 bpg

Two beasts :bowdown:

[riseagainst]

Kareem was the Lakers best player in the 1980 NBA Finals. Its sucks that he didn't play in Game 6 because he was injured. He was the lakers best player in that series.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1980_finals.html

Kareem - 33.4 ppg on 54.9 FG%, 13.6 rpg, 3.2 apg, 0.6 spg, 4.6 bpg

Magic - 21.5 ppg on 57.3 FG%, 11.2 rpg, 8.7 apg, 2.7 spg, 0.3 bpg

idk.... Magic put just as impressive numbers as Kareem... and as a rookie.

[CelticBaller]

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/--2CTEsjDuh0/T0I9TmQwEYI/AAAAAAAAC-w/SkjHEkeJMXk/s640/Cool%2520Story%2520Bro.jpg
the thought of wilt being the goat is ridiculous

he only averaged 11 points in a finals :oldlol:
what a fvkcing loser

[Marlo_Stanfield]

the thought of wilt being the goat is ridiculous

he only averaged 11 points in a finals :oldlol:
what a fvkcing loser
by far better than any player the Celtics ever had doe:coleman:

[CelticBaller]

by far better than any player the Celtics ever had doe:coleman:
http://ashleypeek.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/larry_bird_21.jpg

[Marlo_Stanfield]

http://ashleypeek.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/larry_bird_21.jpg
Bird beter than Wilt:biggums: :biggums:
http://imageshack.com/a/img827/8886/ia5o.gif

[ImKobe]

the thought of wilt being the goat is ridiculous

he only averaged 11 points in a finals :oldlol:
what a fvkcing loser

Seriously :lol

[CelticBaller]

Bird beter than Wilt:biggums: :biggums:
http://imageshack.com/a/img827/8886/ia5o.gif
lol, your idol obviously think so when he claimed he was in the mt Rushmore of the nba :oldlol:


Bird would've scored 150 if he wanted to in the 60s :oldlol:

[Young X]

All time career PER:
1. Michael Jordan 27.91
2. Lebron James 27.75
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43

All time career win share/48:
1. Michael Jordan 0.2505
2. David Robinson 0.2502
3. Wilt Chamberlain 0.2480

All time career MVP share*:
1. Michael Jordan 8.138
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 6.203
3. Larry Bird 5.693He's #1 in the playoff too.

Playoff PER:
1. Jordan
2. Mikan
3. James

Playoff WS/48:
1. Jordan
2. Mikan
3. James

How can you argue against a player with his numbers/performances/impact. You can't.

[riseagainst]

He's #1 in the playoff too.

Playoff PER:
1. Jordan
2. Mikan
3. James

Playoff WS/48:
1. Jordan
2. Mikan
3. James

How can you argue against a player with his numbers/performances/impact. You can't.

Mikan is 2nd all time in playoff PER and ws/48, therefore, according to logic, he is the 2nd greatest player of all time.

[Keno]

lebron will pass him in all of this at the end of his career.

[CavaliersFTW]

the thought of wilt being the goat is ridiculous

he only averaged 11 points in a finals :oldlol:
what a fvkcing loser
Prime Michael Jordan's most important stat: .202 batting average in a minor league :oldlol:

[The Iron Fist]

Sure, KAJ had accomplishments in HS and College, but MJ's accomplishments, which he achieved at the pinnacle of the sport, deserves more praise than KAJ getting it done over a bunch of players (who would not even sniff the NCAA in the '80's) in the '60's, right? Don;t get me wrong. KAJ is a top 3 GOAT, but him getting shit done at the HS and college level in the '60's is not impressive at all.
Name the last player to win 3 straight HS titles, then go to college and win three straight NCAA titles.

You're a lame if you don't think that is impressive.

[The Iron Fist]

Magic bailed Kareem's ass when he was just a rookie. Kareem couldn't finish what he started.

In 91 Magic led the Lakers to the finals but lost to a greater team.

What did Kareem do? Choke job after choke job until Magic came. :rolleyes:
:roll: at the lying.

Magic lost because Kareem wasn't there to lead him.

[LAZERUSS]

What's his playoffs stats looking like?:eek:


Something like this...

In his "scoring" seasons, of which only 52 of his 160 career playoff games were played, he AVERAGED a collective 33 ppg, 26 rpg, and shot .505 (in post-seasons that shot about .420 on average in that span), and 30 of those games were against Russell. Oh, and unlike MJ, whose team made the playoffs in a year in which they went 30-52, Chamberlain's Warriors didn't make the playoffs in a season in which they went 31-49, and in which he averaged 44.8 ppg on a .528 eFG%.

Furthermore, carry Wilt's average out thru his '67 season, and in a span of 67 playoff games, he AVERAGED 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, and shot .515 (again, in post-seasons which shot about .421 on average)...and likely 8+ bpg. I would challenge you to give me a list of players who ever averaged a 30-27-5-8 .515 (or shot nearly a 10% above the league average) in a SERIES. Hell, you would be hard-pressed to a find a player who even put up ONE PLAYOFF GAME with that stat line.

Included in those "scoring" post-seasons were post-season averages of 28 ppg, 29.3 ppg, 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg.

And he had playoff series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.7 ppg. Furthermore, he had playoff series against Russell of 28.0 ppg on a .509 eFG%; 29.2 ppg on a .517 eFG%; 30.1 ppg on a .555 eFG%; 30.5 ppg on a .500 eFG%, and 33.6 ppg on a .468 eFG%.

He also had FOUR 50+ point games in his "scoring" seasons, (in fact, in his first 36 playoff games), three of which came in "must-win" games (and one of those against Russell.)


Then, there is the fact that he played in 29 post-season series, and was never outrebounded by anyone, in those 29 series (eight of which came against Russell.)


Nor does anyone ever bring up the fact that Chamberlain was DRAMATICALLY reducing the efficiencies of his OPPOSING centers in his playoff career. He held Red Kerr to two playoff series of .296 and .376 shooting; Russell to playoff series of .399, .398, .386, and even .358; Thurmond to playoff series of .398, .373, and .343; Bellamy to .421 (in a season in which Bellamy shot .541 against the league); and even KAJ to .481 (in a season in which he shot .577 against the NBA), and .457 (in a season in which he shot .574 against the NBA.)

Or the fact that in his six Finals, he outshot his opposing centers from the field by margins of .525 to .493; .500 to .399; .517 to .386; .560 to .343; .600 to .500; and .625 to .483.

Yep... a complete bust in the post-season...

:facepalm

[LAZERUSS]

:roll: at the lying.

Magic lost because Kareem wasn't there to lead him.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Magic won a ring in '88 DESPITE KAJ's AWFUL post-season play, which was even worse in the Finals (and his game seven is probably the worst ever played by a "GOAT" candidate.) Furthermore, the '87 Lakers were clearly good enough to have won a title without Kareem's contributions.

And, yes, it was MAGIC who led the '80 Lakers to a ring. As was CLEARLY the case in '82.

I find it fascinating that after KAJ retired, the Lakers IMPROVED from a 57-25 record to a 63-19 record, and then the year after that, Magic carried a rapidly declining and injury-plagued team to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals.

And how about this stat?

During their ten seasons in the league together, Kareem went 61-40 (.604) in games in which Magic missed. Meanwhile, Magic went 24-8 (.750) in games in which KAJ missed. FURTHERMORE, if you include Magic's W-L records in his three other seasons without KAJ (which includes his 22-10 record in his 95-86 season), he went a combined 165-57, or a .743 percentage.

CLEARLY, Kareem needed Magic far more than Magic needed KAJ.

[Fazotronic]

http://imageshack.com/a/img856/5826/sgs3.jpg

[LAZERUSS]

http://imageshack.com/a/img856/5826/sgs3.jpg

Yeah...I don't see what the big deal was about Wilt's scoring. After all, everyone in the league at that time were putting up 40-50 ppg seasons.

Oh sure, during his 14 seasons in the league, there were only a TOTAL of FIVE other 60+ point games...and that Wilt had 32 by himself.

Or the fact that Wilt, at age 32, and in his tenth season (68-69) was still putting up TWO 60+ games. Which is interesting, since Kareem would come in the league the very next season...play 20 years...and never top 55.

Or that Chamberlain, at age 33, began the 69-70 season leading the league in scoring at 32.2 ppg (and on a .579 FG%) before blowing out his knee. KAJ would average 28.8 ppg that season BTW.

[LAZERUSS]

What's his playoffs stats looking like?:eek:

And for those that claim that Wilt was a "choker"...


The idiotic Bill Simmons claims that Wilt "shrunk" in the post-season, particularly in BIG games.

Had he actually done any real research into Wilt's post-season career, he would have found that Wilt averaged 27.0 ppg in his 35 "must-win" and/or clinching games. Meanwhile, his starting opposing centers averaged 14.5 ppg in those 35 games. He also outscored his opposing starting center in 29 of those 35 games, including a 19-0 edge in his first 19 games of those 35. Furthermore, in his 13 games which came in his "scoring" seasons (from 59-60 thru 65-66), Chamberlain averaged 37.3 ppg in those "do-or-die" or clinching games. And there were MANY games in which he just CRUSHED his opposing centers in those games (e.g. he outscored Kerr in one them, 53-7.)

Wilt had THREE of his four 50+ point post-season games, in these "elimination games", including two in "at the limit" games, and another against Russell in a "must-win" game. He also had games of 46-34 and 45-27 (and only 4 months removed from major knee surgery) in these types of games. In addition he had games of 39 and 38 in clinching wins.

In the known 19 games in which we have both Wilt's, and his starting opposing center's rebounding numbers, Chamberlain outrebounded them in 15 of them, and by an average margin of 26.1 rpg to 18.9 rpg. And, had we had all 35 of the totals, it would have been by a considerably larger margin. A conservative estimate would put Wilt with at least a 30-5 overall edge in those 35 games. He also had games, even against the likes of Russell, and in "must-win" situations, where he just MURDERED his opposing centers (e.g. he had one clinching game, against Russell, in which he outrebounded him by a 36-21 margin.)

And finally, in the known FG% games in which we have, Chamberlain not only shot an eye-popping .582 in those "do-or-die" games, but he held his opposing centers to a combined .413 FG%. BTW, he played against Kareem in two "clinching" games, and held Abdul-Jabbar to a combined .383 (23-60) shooting in those two games, while Wilt shot .545 (18-33.)

The bottom line, in the known games of the 35 that Wilt played in that involved a "must-win" or clincher, Wilt averaged 27 ppg, 26.1 rpg, and shot .582 (and the 27 ppg figure was known for all 35 of those games.)

And once again, Chamberlain played in 11 games which went to the series limit (nine game seven's, one game five of a best-of-five series, and one game three of a best-of-three series), and all he did was average 29.9 ppg (outscoring his opposing center by a 29.9 ppg to 9.8 ppg margin in the process), with 26.7 rpg, and on .581 shooting. Or he was an eye-lash away from averaging a 30-27 game, and on nearly .600 shooting, in those 11 "at the limit" games.


Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's TEAMs went 24-11 in those 35 games, too.

That was the same player that Simmons basically labeled a "loser", and a "choker", and who "shrunk" in his BIG games.

[Fazotronic]

bla bla. yea i wanna see how great those games were. esp. that 100 point game that will be in the history books for EVER.
but OOOPSS. nobody will ever see it beacause nobody was able to record it.
that pretty much shows you how popular and known the league was compared to today. ergo much greater competition.
no stat you can find that will change that.

[LAZERUSS]

bla bla. yea i wanna see how great those games were. esp. that 100 point game that will be in the history books for EVER.
but OOOPSS. nobody will ever see it beacause nobody was able to record it.
that pretty much shows you how popular and known the league was compared to today. ergo much greater competition.
no stat you can find that will change that.

You do realize that a Wilt, before blowing out his knee, just crushed a rookie Kareem (Alcindor) in their one H2H game? And that a Chamberlain, at age 34, and a year removed from major knee surgery, battled a peak Kareem in 10 H2H games (five in the regular season, and five in the playoffs), and statistically outplayed him?

And that a PRIME Chamberlain was FAR more dominant against the same centers that a prime/peak Kareem would face a few years later?

Or that a 35-36 year old Wilt, in his last two seasons, and covering 11 straight H2H games against the 6-11 HOFer Bob Lanier, averaged 24 ppg on a .784 FG%?

Seems like Wilt did just fine against those two players, who would go on to dominate the 70's, and in KAJ's case, the 80's.

[Fazotronic]

you're doing the same stupid old vs young comparison that jlauber used to do.
doesn't matter. kareem was never as dominant as he was with the bucks.
even with him improving he never reached those heights.
plus the fact that kareem developed one of the most fundamental solid playing styles that kept him relevant. kudos to him.

but that doesn't change anything i said.

[LAZERUSS]

you're doing the same stupid old vs young comparison that jlauber used to do.
doesn't matter. kareem was never as dominant as he was with the bucks.
even with him improving he never reached those heights.
plus the fact that kareem developed one of the most fundamental solid playing styles that kept him relevant. kudos to him.

but that doesn't change anything i said.

Not sure how to respond.

If MJ were truly this god-like player, why didn't he win any titles in his first six seasons? How come he needed stacked rosters to win rings? Hell, his 92-93 Bulls team went 57-25 and won a title, and then without him the next year, they went 55-27, and lost a close seven game series to a 56-26 Knicks team, that would go on to lose a close seven game series to the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals.

Again, how come a peak scoring, peak offensive MJ, couldn't win jack? And please, don't give me the surrounding supporting casts, either. Chamberlain had hapless rosters his first six seasons, too. And he carried them further than Jordan did with his rosters in his first six seasons.

And we saw what KAJ could do with Magic. Eight Finals, and five rings in 10 seasons.

[aj1987]

Name the last player to win 3 straight HS titles, then go to college and win three straight NCAA titles.

You're a lame if you don't think that is impressive.
What part of 'level of competition' do you not understand? MJ in the '60's would've absolutely destroyed the HS and College scene. Name a SINGLE player who was on MJ's level athletically (at the 1-4 positions). MJ in the '60's would've ripped the whole league a new one. I know that you're a Kobetard and you try your best to diminish other players to prop up Kobe.

[Fazotronic]

Not sure how to respond.

If MJ were truly this god-like player, why didn't he win any titles in his first six seasons? How come he needed stacked rosters to win rings? Hell, his 92-93 Bulls team went 57-25 and won a title, and then without him the next year, they went 55-27, and lost a close seven game series to a 56-26 Knicks team, that would go on to lose a close seven game series to the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals.

never said he was god-like player. whatever that means. no player can do it all by himself. some can do it with less than others.
jordan was on a stacked team but than again he did win 6 with them.
the rockets had that record but they won against like 4 60+wins teams.
they would have won it anyway considering the bulls always had problems against the rockets.
i don't know what else to say. he did have stacked teams but nobody can deny how he played and how he dominated the league. everything here for everyone to watch and judge.


Again, how come a peak scoring, peak offensive MJ, couldn't win jack? And please, don't give me the surrounding supporting casts, either. Chamberlain had hapless rosters his first six seasons, too. And he carried them further than Jordan did with his rosters in his first six seasons.

And we saw what KAJ could do with Magic. Eight Finals, and five rings in 10 seasons.

here we are again and the cold fact remains that the competition wasn't the same in the 50's/60's compared to the 80s/90s or today.
one can only guess how he would play today and imho he would not stand out as much as he did due the much better competition.

[97 bulls]

Basketball GOAT lists can/should include just about any accolade from any level shouldn't they? Nobody specified NBA only. ABA, Eastern League, HS, NCAA, Globetrotters etc who's to say it isn't all fair game in assessing how great someone thinks their favorite player is?
Then Jordan has Olympic Gold Medals to Jabaars 0. So Jordan holds the edge at the two highest levels of Basketball Athletics (Pros and International/Olympics) and Jabaar has the edge in College and Lol high school.

[97 bulls]

Something like this...

In his "scoring" seasons, of which only 52 of his 160 career playoff games were played, he AVERAGED a collective 33 ppg, 26 rpg, and shot .505 (in post-seasons that shot about .420 on average in that span), and 30 of those games were against Russell. Oh, and unlike MJ, whose team made the playoffs in a year in which they went 30-52, Chamberlain's Warriors didn't make the playoffs in a season in which they went 31-49, and in which he averaged 44.8 ppg on a .528 eFG%.

Furthermore, carry Wilt's average out thru his '67 season, and in a span of 67 playoff games, he AVERAGED 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, and shot .515 (again, in post-seasons which shot about .421 on average)...and likely 8+ bpg. I would challenge you to give me a list of players who ever averaged a 30-27-5-8 .515 (or shot nearly a 10% above the league average) in a SERIES. Hell, you would be hard-pressed to a find a player who even put up ONE PLAYOFF GAME with that stat line.

Included in those "scoring" post-seasons were post-season averages of 28 ppg, 29.3 ppg, 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg.

And he had playoff series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.7 ppg. Furthermore, he had playoff series against Russell of 28.0 ppg on a .509 eFG%; 29.2 ppg on a .517 eFG%; 30.1 ppg on a .555 eFG%; 30.5 ppg on a .500 eFG%, and 33.6 ppg on a .468 eFG%.

He also had FOUR 50+ point games in his "scoring" seasons, (in fact, in his first 36 playoff games), three of which came in "must-win" games (and one of those against Russell.)


Then, there is the fact that he played in 29 post-season series, and was never outrebounded by anyone, in those 29 series (eight of which came against Russell.)


Nor does anyone ever bring up the fact that Chamberlain was DRAMATICALLY reducing the efficiencies of his OPPOSING centers in his playoff career. He held Red Kerr to two playoff series of .296 and .376 shooting; Russell to playoff series of .399, .398, .386, and even .358; Thurmond to playoff series of .398, .373, and .343; Bellamy to .421 (in a season in which Bellamy shot .541 against the league); and even KAJ to .481 (in a season in which he shot .577 against the NBA), and .457 (in a season in which he shot .574 against the NBA.)

Or the fact that in his six Finals, he outshot his opposing centers from the field by margins of .525 to .493; .500 to .399; .517 to .386; .560 to .343; .600 to .500; and .625 to .483.

Yep... a complete bust in the post-season...

:facepalm
Who had the better NBA career between Jordan and Chamberlain?

[LAZERUSS]

Who had the better NBA career between Jordan and Chamberlain?

Chamberlain certainly has a case for GOAT. Many of his achievements are beyond comprehension. He literally owns the Record Book. He dominated his peers far more than anyone else ever has.

And you simply can't use "team" success against Chamberlain, simply because he was facing the greatest dynasty in NBA history for ten seasons, and then had to battle team's like the '70 and '73 Knicks (loaded with HOFers), as well as the '71 and '72 Bucks. For instance, in his 14 seasons, he went to the playoffs 13 times, and out of those, he won two rings, and lost to the eventual champion 10 times, which included five game seven's, and four of those game seven's were decided by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points.

[LAZERUSS]

Who had the better NBA career between Jordan and Chamberlain?

Incidently, I agree that MJ is a GOAT candidate. Not that he needs my endorsement here. I just don't hold him way above players like Russell, Magic, and Chamberlain. And while I don't rank KAJ as highly as many, I would not argue vehemently with anyone putting him in that group, either.

[jzek]

All I'm going to say is this:

6 out 6 in the Finals
6x FMVP


That is the definition of GOAT.

[NumberSix]

All I'm going to say is this:

6 out 6 in the Finals
6x FMVP


That is the definition of GOAT.
Nah...

IMO, this is the definition of GOAT.


8 of 10 finals
7x FMVP


Sorry. MJ falls short.

[livinglegend]

All I'm going to say is this:

6 out 6 in the Finals
6x FMVP


That is the definition of GOAT.

11 rings in 12 seasons as the LEADER of the team.
That is the definition of GOAT!

[Derivative]

bump

[ILLsmak]

Then Jordan has Olympic Gold Medals to Jabaars 0. So Jordan holds the edge at the two highest levels of Basketball Athletics (Pros and International/Olympics) and Jabaar has the edge in College and Lol high school.

heh, well the international bball back then was luls, too. It was more like a vacation where they played pick up ball.

-Smak

[Number24]

that "comprehensive" filled-up any room for argument!

[becken]

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Angel Face]

No one stat is perfect, but when all the variety of stats give one answer, then that answer is the fact.

PER has its uses, but it's not perfect.
Win Share has its uses, but it's not perfect.
MVP share has its uses, but it's not perfect...

But...

All time career PER:
1. Michael Jordan 27.91
2. Lebron James 27.75
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43

All time career win share/48:
1. Michael Jordan 0.2505
2. David Robinson 0.2502
3. Wilt Chamberlain 0.2480

All time career MVP share*:
1. Michael Jordan 8.138
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 6.203
3. Larry Bird 5.693

*MVP share is a career cumulative stat, Jordan had almost 2 MORE MVP shares than Kareem despite playing 4 LESS seasons

:applause:

Even without looking at the stats, just by watching him play you can tell that he's the clear cut G.O.A.T.

[Angel Face]

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/--2CTEsjDuh0/T0I9TmQwEYI/AAAAAAAAC-w/SkjHEkeJMXk/s640/Cool%2520Story%2520Bro.jpg

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-24-2014/1rx7gH.gif

[Asukal]

Chamberlain certainly has a case for GOAT. Many of his achievements are beyond comprehension. He literally owns the Record Book. He dominated his peers far more than anyone else ever has.

And you simply can't use "team" success against Chamberlain, simply because he was facing the greatest dynasty in NBA history for ten seasons, and then had to battle team's like the '70 and '73 Knicks (loaded with HOFers), as well as the '71 and '72 Bucks. For instance, in his 14 seasons, he went to the playoffs 13 times, and out of those, he won two rings, and lost to the eventual champion 10 times, which included five game seven's, and four of those game seven's were decided by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points.

Bolded: Your definition of GOAT? :biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

[kshutts1]

No one stat is perfect, but when all the variety of stats give one answer, then that answer is the fact.

PER has its uses, but it's not perfect.
Win Share has its uses, but it's not perfect.
MVP share has its uses, but it's not perfect...

But...

All time career PER:
1. Michael Jordan 27.91
2. Lebron James 27.75
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43

All time career win share/48:
1. Michael Jordan 0.2505
2. David Robinson 0.2502
3. Wilt Chamberlain 0.2480

All time career MVP share*:
1. Michael Jordan 8.138
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 6.203
3. Larry Bird 5.693

*MVP share is a career cumulative stat, Jordan had almost 2 MORE MVP shares than Kareem despite playing 4 LESS seasons

Win Shares and MVP Shares... I'm 95% sure that both of those are highly predicative on team wins. Hardly an individual "award".

As for PER... I honestly don't know this... but how is that calculated for pre-80s players? I know it's basically a single-number-boxscore... but blocks and steals have to be accounted for, yes? And assists, even, for the much older generation. Are the forefathers of the game simply left out of this metric, or is there some magical arbitrary number that is plugged in? You know.. similar to most of the other advanced stats...

Long post short: I'll give you that MJ and Oscar are the GOAT guards. But I can't say anyone, no matter who, is the overall GOAT. Too many positional and era differences.

[Derivative]

bump

[pauk]

All time career PER:
1. Michael Jordan 27.91
2. Lebron James 27.79
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43

All time career win share/48:
1. Michael Jordan 0.2505
2. David Robinson 0.2502
3. Wilt Chamberlain 0.2480

All time career MVP share*:
1. Michael Jordan 8.138
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 6.203
3. LeBron James 6.100



Updated/Fixed, Lebron is in good pace to be #1 on these categories very soon, he is climbing rapidly.

Anyways, yep, MJ... GOAT.... nothing to see here, im just doing my daily Lebron ******ging thats all... :cheers:

[Derivative]

No one stat is perfect, but when all the variety of stats give one answer, then that answer is the fact.

PER has its uses, but it's not perfect.
Win Share has its uses, but it's not perfect.
MVP share has its uses, but it's not perfect...

But...

All time career PER:
1. Michael Jordan 27.91
2. Lebron James 27.75
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43

All time career win share/48:
1. Michael Jordan 0.2505
2. David Robinson 0.2502
3. Wilt Chamberlain 0.2480

All time career MVP share*:
1. Michael Jordan 8.138
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 6.203
3. Larry Bird 5.693

*MVP share is a career cumulative stat, Jordan had almost 2 MORE MVP shares than Kareem despite playing 4 LESS seasons

GOAT gonna GOAT man...

[SouBeachTalents]

Stop bumping all of your old ****ing threads

[CavaliersFTW]

GOAT gonna GOAT man...
Wilt's win shares assuming he blocked 0 shots per game, had 0 steals per game, etc... yeah that's all accurate and fair. Just like MJ with his 6 FMVP's to Bill Russell's zero right? GOAT gonna GOAT after all, especially when we compare accolades that didn't exist from one time to another great job great effort :applause:

96 records >>>

11 titles, 8 peat, 2-peat as player coach, 2-peat NCAA titles and 1 Olympic Gold in just 14 years >>>

The list goes on of players who have resume's that potentially just blow Jordan out the water if you simply take the stance that THOSE things are what is of the most importance in determining greatness. Of course, you won't think they are of much importance. You're going to favor the lump sum of all his accolades that never existed in prior eras and collective stat measuring algorihms that don't work for eras where advanced stats weren't tracked to support MJ as the best.

It's all just an opinion. His resume isn't the best ever. It's arguable as the best ever depending on criteria, but it isn't hands down the best, others have solid cases over him if you simply value the things they accomplished.

[Dragic4Life]

:applause:

[Roundball_Rock]

How good were KAJ's teams in HS and College, compared to MJ's teams?

KAJ beat the #1 team in the country with a bunch of freshmen. :bowdown: Is there any other player in history who could do that?


So what did Magic do without Kareem?

Nothing.

What did Kareem do without Magic?

Turn an expansion Bucks franchise into champions in their third year of existence, his second in the league.

:applause:

The hypocrisy is it is MJ stans who invoke Magic vis-a-vis KAJ but then ignore MJ's "record" without Pippen starting...


MJ is 6/6 in the Finals, he never lost, never allowed a Game 7 in the Finals.

Yet he "allowed" two ECF's, an ECSF and a first round series to go to the final game?


Prime Michael Jordan's most important stat: .202 batting average in a minor league

He couldn't post a winning season without Scottie there either. :lol


Then Jordan has Olympic Gold Medals to Jabaars 0.

That is because KAJ did not play in the Olympics on political grounds. Had he played, he would have won a gold medal.


11 rings in 12 seasons as the LEADER of the team.
That is the definition of GOAT!

They were 39-33 before he got there; after he retired they went from champs to missing the playoffs. It was the same thing with the college he won with. It has done nothing since he left.


Wilt's win shares assuming he blocked 0 shots per game, had 0 steals per game, etc... yeah that's all accurate and fair. Just like MJ with his 6 FMVP's to Bill Russell's zero right? GOAT gonna GOAT after all, especially when we compare accolades that didn't exist from one time to another great job great effort

:applause:

[juju151111]

KAJ beat the #1 team in the country with a bunch of freshmen. :bowdown: Is there any other player in history who could do that?



:applause:

The hypocrisy is it is MJ stans who invoke Magic vis-a-vis KAJ but then ignore MJ's "record" without Pippen starting...



Yet he "allowed" two ECF's, an ECSF and a first round series to go to the final game?



He couldn't post a winning season without Scottie there either. :lol



That is because KAJ did not play in the Olympics on political grounds. Had he played, he would have won a gold medal.



They were 39-33 before he got there; after he retired they went from champs to missing the playoffs. It was the same thing with the college he won with. It has done nothing since he left.



:applause:
Who cares about college basketball? KAJ wasn't the best player in the last two championship and played like hot garbage in 1988 finals.

[Ne 1]

When talking about the game of basketball as a whole, Kareem=GOAT. People can pretend as much as they want that "HS and NCAA don't matter" and ridicule themselves by comparing them to "who was the best 5 year old" or "who dominated his siblings more", but whoever doesn't live in a cave knows that both High School and NCAA have huge fanbases, which, in some states sh*t over the pros. In Indiana, for example, High School and NCAA basketball are religions. In Kareem's era, NCAA and High School news were routinely enjoying more newspaper space than the NBA, the Kareem vs Hayes matchup in 1968 was watched by like 60,000 people in the stadium and I can't remember how many millions of TV viewers, etc. So, yeah, you bet they count a little more than "kindergarten leagues" and the such.

[Roundball_Rock]

When talking about the game of basketball as a whole, Kareem=GOAT. People can pretend as much as they want that "HS and NCAA don't matter" and ridicule themselves by comparing them to "who was the best 5 year old" or "who dominated his siblings more", but whoever doesn't live in a cave knows that both High School and NCAA have huge fanbases, which, in some states sh*t over the pros. In Indiana, for example, High School and NCAA basketball are religions. In Kareem's era, NCAA and High School news were routinely enjoying more newspaper space than the NBA, the Kareem vs Hayes matchup in 1968 was watched by like 60,000 people in the stadium and I can't remember how many millions of TV viewers, etc. So, yeah, you bet they count a little more than "kindergarten leagues" and the such.

He has a case for GOAT at every level of basketball. No other players does. :bowdown:

[Soundwave]

Who cares about college basketball? KAJ wasn't the best player in the last two championship and played like hot garbage in 1988 finals.

He also got his ass kicked by 5 foot 2 Bruce Lee.

[K Xerxes]

The hypocrisy is it is MJ stans who invoke Magic vis-a-vis KAJ but then ignore MJ's "record" without Pippen starting...

This is an absurd argument, and I'm sure you know it. Magic clearly became the leader of the team for the final two rings as Kareem suffered a steep decline in performance because of age. Kareem was the leader for the first two rings of the showtime era and 85 is arguable.

Bringing up Jordan's record without Pippen ignores the other obvious deficiences in the Bulls of the late 80s, in which I don't believe that it's reasonable to suggest any other player could have turned them into a winning team. Pippen's development was necessary for the Bulls to turn into a great team, and that is no knock against Jordan because games are almost always won by better teams. No player is great enough to win multiples games by themselves with a significantly worse roster.

The obvious difference here is that Jordan remained as the clearcut leader even with Pippen's development, and undoubtedly led his team until the end. He had a great team no doubt, with other very good players and coach (as did Kareem), but he was the best player by a fair margin through all six championship runs.

So Kareem certainly was the best player and leader in three, arguably four, of the rings; Jordan in six.

[KungFuJoe]

No one truly believes Jordan isn't the GOAT. those who claim differently are just trolling or want to be seen as "different".

[Soundwave]

No one truly believes Jordan isn't the GOAT. those who claim differently are just trolling or want to be seen as "different".

ISH in a nutshell (when not bickering over LeBron/Kobe stupidity):

blahblahblahblhab Jordan isn't the goat

blahblahblahblahblhablahESPNhypeNikeGatoradeHaness omethingsomething

I mean I still have Jordan as goat or tied for goat /end post

It's the message board equivalent of the hipster dumb ass who wants a coffee but can't drink coffee because everyone else is drinking it, so he drinks a latte machiatto, even though he has no idea what that is, he just thinks it sounds elegant.

[rlsmooth775]

No one truly believes Jordan isn't the GOAT. those who claim differently are just trolling or want to be seen as "different".

I used to think he was than I realized he played against garbage opponents. His best rivals in the east were John Starks, Patrick Ewing who would always decline in the playoffs like James harden and Reggie miller

[Roundball_Rock]

Bringing up Jordan's record without Pippen ignores the other obvious deficiences in the Bulls of the late 80s

MJ fans can't have it both ways: invoke context for MJ losing and then brush aside context for KAJ in the 70's.

How do you "lead" if you refuse to even to talk to several teammates? :lol


His best rivals in the east were John Starks, Patrick Ewing who would always decline in the playoffs like James harden and Reggie miller

Well, he also faced the Mark Price-led Cavs several times!

[Soundwave]

MJ fans can't have it both ways: invoke context for MJ losing and then brush aside context for KAJ in the 70's.

How do you "lead" if you refuse to even to talk to several teammates? :lol



Well, he also faced the Mark Price-led Cavs several times!

I have Kareem as no.2 GOAT, what's the problem?

IMO only Jordan, Kareem, and Russell past the smell test to be considered GOAT. Everyone else is a phony and don't have the resume to back it up.

[GimmeThat]

how else did you think Nike was going to try and help Lebron win a few more MVPs and ditch Durant.

While hoping that Gilbert doesn't go full retard.

[Soundwave]

I used to think he was than I realized he played against garbage opponents. His best rivals in the east were John Starks, Patrick Ewing who would always decline in the playoffs like James harden and Reggie miller

He beat Shaq, Penny, Isiah, Dumars, Rodman, Zo, Mutombo, CWebb, among others in the East too. Do your homework son.

The East has been hot garbage since the Bulls dynasty broke up anyway, the only time they had two really strong teams in the East since then was when the Celtics big three, who had a window of like 3 years.

[Ne 1]

This is an absurd argument, and I'm sure you know it. Magic clearly became the leader of the team for the final two rings as Kareem suffered a steep decline in performance because of age. Kareem was the leader for the first two rings of the showtime era and 85 is arguable.

Bringing up Jordan's record without Pippen ignores the other obvious deficiences in the Bulls of the late 80s, in which I don't believe that it's reasonable to suggest any other player could have turned them into a winning team. Pippen's development was necessary for the Bulls to turn into a great team, and that is no knock against Jordan because games are almost always won by better teams. No player is great enough to win multiples games by themselves with a significantly worse roster.

The obvious difference here is that Jordan remained as the clearcut leader even with Pippen's development, and undoubtedly led his team until the end. He had a great team no doubt, with other very good players and coach (as did Kareem), but he was the best player by a fair margin through all six championship runs.

So Kareem certainly was the best player and leader in three, arguably four, of the rings; Jordan in six.
Kareem didn't have the great situation Jordan did for most of his prime. To argue "number of rings as the best player" you have to assume they had equal opportunities to win rings in their prime/peak years when this clearly was not the case. Jordan has a case over Kareem but "rings as the best player" is not a strong reason to argue him over Kareem. Let's be real: put Kareem on the Bulls from 1985-1998. How many "rings as the best player" does he win? He sure as hell would win more than 3.

The key when people look at Kareem's 6 rings and Jordan's 6 rings is that Kareem didn't even have a great team around him for his absolute prime years, where as Jordan did. Still it doesn't matter, rings are rings and Kareem won 6 rings, 3 of them clearly as the best player, and '85 as 1a/1b, he remained the go-to guy until the 5th title. Statistically more dominant than Jordan. More valuable to his teams than Jordan (seriously 15-20 wins to 50+ wins? That's insane!) No one is matching Kareem's production over an entire decade either.

[Soundwave]

Kareem didn't have the great situation Jordan did for most of his prime. To argue "number of rings as the best player" you have to assume they had equal opportunities to win rings in their prime/peak years when this clearly was not the case. Jordan has a case over Kareem but "rings as the best player" is not a strong reason to argue him over Kareem. Let's be real: put Kareem on the Bulls from 1985-1998. How many "rings as the best player" does he win? He sure as hell would win more than 3.

The key when people look at Kareem's 6 rings and Jordan's 6 rings is that Kareem didn't even have a great team around him for his absolute prime years, where as Jordan did. Still it doesn't matter, rings are rings and Kareem won 6 rings, 3 of them clearly as the best player, and '85 as 1a/1b, he remained the go-to guy until the 5th title. Statistically more dominant than Jordan. More valuable to his teams than Jordan (seriously 15-20 wins to 50+ wins? That's insane!) No one is matching Kareem's production over an entire decade either.

These what ifs are interesting but they can go many different ways.

What if Jordan played in the 70s? He'd probably tear the NBA a new a-hole with no Pistons/Bird Celtics to contend with and Russell/Wilt clearly out of their prime there's no real Ewing/Hakeem/Shaq/DRob to cause him problems at the rim other than Kareem really.

I don't think anyone could even come close to guarding him in the 70s. They couldn't even do it in the 90s when he was older and the scoring pace was reduced. It's possible he might have some 40 ppg seasons in the 70s.

[mehyaM24]

jordan is NOT the goat

unless you think playing in a weak era with few swing-men, bad defense, and midgets is GOAT-worthy

jockers love to spew that unrealistic crap about jordan "making" pippen. my question is, why did pippen have his BEST seasons without jordan? in 94, pippen averaged 22/9/6 with DPOY-level defense. in 95, he became only the second player in history to lead his team in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals

but how could he do this without jordan to make him better? mythologists???

:facepalm

[GODbe]

Eye test > "statistic measures"

Kobe>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>MJ

[Derivative]

goat gonna goatee

[Derivative]

curry

[ClipperRevival]

Anyone who is old enough to have seen MJ play will agree that he is the GOAT, sans a few. He blew away the eye test and convinced you at your soul that he just might be the GOAT for eternity.

But what makes MJ's case even stronger is that in recent years, the advanced stats just further confirm he is the GOAT.

[sportjames23]

Anyone who is old enough to have seen MJ play will agree that he is the GOAT, sans a few. He blew away the eye test and convinced you at your soul that he just might be the GOAT for eternity.

But what makes MJ's case even stronger is that in recent years, the advanced stats just further confirm he is the GOAT.


:cheers:

[Straight_Ballin]

Jordan is the most efficient, most impactful, and most valuable player of all time.

GOAT gonna GOAT

Why do people that never saw him play live get all insecure about it?

[Straight_Ballin]

:biggums:
jordan is NOT the goat

unless you think playing in a weak era with few swing-men, bad defense, and midgets is GOAT-worthy

jockers love to spew that unrealistic crap about jordan "making" pippen. my question is, why did pippen have his BEST seasons without jordan? in 94, pippen averaged 22/9/6 with DPOY-level defense. in 95, he became only the second player in history to lead his team in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals

but how could he do this without jordan to make him better? mythologists???

:facepalm

Your post makes no sense. Jordan molded Pippen well before 94. Are you forgetting that he molded him to become a 3-peat champion before 94/95? If Pippen was as great as you think he is, then him and MJ would have made the finals the first year Pippen came in the league! Pippen wasn't good enough, so Jordan made him good enough.

[sportjames23]

Why do people that never saw him play live get all insecure about it?


Let's ask dubeta.

Oh, wait...

[DMV2]

- The only player to have 4 seasons with a ring, Finals MVP, MVP and scoring title.

- 4 seasons with a ring, Finals MVP and MVP is the most ever by any player. Only 10 players have done this.
LeBron is second most with 2 seasons with a ring, Finals MVP, and MVP.

- Jordan is the first player to ever win a ring, Finals MVP, MVP ad Gold medal in the same calendar year. Lebron was the second player to do so.

Finally, can anybody match Jordan's 10-year stretch between 1988-1998? It's gotta be the greatest 10-year period ever.