How come Jordan couldn't win one title in the defensively weak 80s?

[The Iron Fist]

I mean, he scored so many points and all, people brag about his 60+ vs Boston, his 37-8-8, etc. Why no rings?

[navy]

Rings are a team accomplishment.

[juju151111]

I mean, he scored so many points and all, people brag about his 60+ vs Boston, his 37-8-8, etc. Why no rings?
Team mostly. Even Larry Bird agrees with that.

[DaSeba5]

Rings are a team accomplishment.

This

[sportjames23]

I mean, he scored so many points and all, people brag about his 60+ vs Boston, his 37-8-8, etc. Why no rings?


You aren't this stupid, are you?

[JohnFreeman]

Because Jordan is a career loser
You honestly think I am being serious? Shame on you if you quote this

[Milbuck]

You're not going to win this. Just quit now.

[Keno]

bird and magic were far superior than him. it has been well known for a while now that jordan had to wait until magic retired early from aids and bird retired early from back injuries to win any rings. luckiest superstar in nba history.

[Fudge]

My balls are itchy.

[DonDadda59]

Because he didn't 'decide' to team up with Charles Barkley and Clyde Drexler until the '89-'90 season.

[The Iron Fist]

bird and magic were far superior than him. it has been well known for a while now that jordan had to wait until magic retired early from aids and bird retired early from back injuries to win any rings. luckiest superstar in nba history.
Stern had something to do with magics aids and birds back. Book it!

[ProfessorMurder]

Kobe wasn't even in the league in the 80s. F*cking scrub can't even make it in a weak defensive league.

[Smook A.]

Did you just put defensively weak and 80s in one sentence??

1980s was full of nasty, hardcore defense

[Keno]

Stern had something to do with magics aids and birds back. Book it!

i actually would not doubt that. stern changed a lot of rules to favor jordan.

[CelticBaller]

Because the stacked celtics and the bad boy pistons were making trips to the finals

[SamuraiSWISH]

Michael Jordan clearly sucked. He was a media, Nike, Wheaties, David Stern creation.

[Combat Wombat]

Michael Jordan clearly sucked. He was a media, Nike, Wheaties, David Stern creation.

http://cloud-3.steampowered.com/ugc/1101419084425002913/890B04D2200C0C1ABA2B662B037C286693D4D50C/

[Im Still Ballin]

Because the 80's was a lot more competitive than the 90s and had better teams

[SHAQisGOAT]

:facepalm

GOAT decade son, stop the nonsense

And MJ didn't really have a team to compete all the way

[The Iron Fist]

:facepalm

GOAT decade son, stop the nonsense

And MJ didn't really have a team to compete all the way
So the supposed GOAT, Jordan, can't win a single title in the GOAT decade, but the actual GOAT, Kareem, can win 5.

Interesting. I always had Kareem as the GOAT, but seeing as how he won 5 times in the GOAT decade, well, that just makes this even better.

[Wally450]

Sounds like a thread Keno would make.

[LAZERUSS]

No excuses.

His 85-86 Bulls should have swept the Celtics in the playoffs, instead of the other way around.

Just a damn loser...plain-and-simple.

[97 bulls]

So the supposed GOAT, Jordan, can't win a single title in the GOAT decade, but the actual GOAT, Kareem, can win 5.

Interesting. I always had Kareem as the GOAT, but seeing as how he won 5 times in the GOAT decade, well, that just makes this even better.
Come on bro. You're better than this

[livinglegend]

Because he cant beat all-time greats like Magic and Bird.
He had to beat weaker players with a much more stacked team ( won 55 games without him).OVERRATED!

[Legends66NBA7]

Because he cant beat all-time greats like Magic and Bird.


Ummmm....

[MichaelCorleone]

Kareem won 1 in the WEAKEST ERA IN NBA HISTORY.

Then he rode a rookie Magic to define his "legacy". SMH, tainted.

[DonDadda59]

Because he cant beat all-time greats like Magic and Bird.


http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view3/3736853/peter-hand-raise-o.gif

[diamenz]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view3/3736853/peter-hand-raise-o.gif

ish iq is about as low as this guy's.

[Dragonyeuw]

So the supposed GOAT, Jordan, can't win a single title in the GOAT decade, but the actual GOAT, Kareem, can win 5.

Interesting. I always had Kareem as the GOAT, but seeing as how he won 5 times in the GOAT decade, well, that just makes this even better.

Not a good effort.

[Dragonyeuw]

bird and magic were far superior than him. it has been well known for a while now that jordan had to wait until magic retired early from aids.

Didnt Jordan beat magic, the mvp runnerup that year, for his first title?

[BoutPractice]

I'm pretty sure this was designed as a counterargument to "Kareem only won 1 in the 70s". And sure, it's a valid one, but the competition was much better in Jordan's era.

[AI Thornton]

I mean, he scored so many points and all, people brag about his 60+ vs Boston, his 37-8-8, etc. Why no rings?

Because his team sucked compared to the Pistons and Celtics, plain and simple.

[Nevaeh]

How come Jordan couldn't win one title in the defensively weak 80s?

The same reason Shaq and Kobe couldn't win one in the "defensively weak" 90s.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[HomieWeMajor]

David Stern was still exploiting the race relations in the US in the 80s. When his two main antagonists were out of the league in the 90s he turned to MJ to be the poster boy of the league.

[Dragonyeuw]

The same reason Shaq and Kobe couldn't win one in the "defensively weak" 90s.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Annnnnnnd we're done here.

[Quickening]

This is the black mark in my opinion on Jordans legacy that gets ignored too much... he never really did anything until his late 20s when he got all star calibre help from Pippen and a great supporting case, didn't even get to the finals before this.

There is more to basketball than putting up big numbers and highlight reels, I dont think Jordan had the intangibles that made team mates much better. When he left Chicago, the following season, they barely missed a beat. Most teams if the best player ever left in his prime would have a massive drop off surely

[Knoe Itawl]

Come on bro. You're better than this

No, Kobetards aren't.

[Nevaeh]

This is the black mark in my opinion on Jordans legacy that gets ignored too much... he never really did anything until his late 20s when he got all star calibre help from Pippen and a great supporting case, didn't even get to the finals before this.

He didn't do anything..........except revolutionise his SG position, to the extent that it's still held as the "standard" for it, till this day. He also proved that a perimeter player can be just as deadly on both sides of the ball, before SGs were ever thought of as defensive threats.

I won't waste time on the "all star calibre help" line, considering how long MJ had to wait for that "help" to finally kick in and contribute on any consistent level at all.


There is more to basketball than putting up big numbers and highlight reels, I dont think Jordan had the intangibles that made team mates much better. When he left Chicago, the following season, they barely missed a beat. Most teams if the best player ever left in his prime would have a massive drop off surely

When MJ left the team, he left it with the standard of being 3 time NBA champions, not playoff/finals choke artists. Anything less than the best from this team, which had MJ carrying them for every one of their Finals runs, would be considered a failure.

For all of that "All Star help" that he had, why couldn't they win a championship without him? Nobody seems to be able to answer this one, for some reason.

[Knoe Itawl]

This is the black mark in my opinion on Jordans legacy that gets ignored too much... he never really did anything until his late 20s when he got all star calibre help from Pippen and a great supporting case, didn't even get to the finals before this.

There is more to basketball than putting up big numbers and highlight reels, I dont think Jordan had the intangibles that made team mates much better. When he left Chicago, the following season, they barely missed a beat. Most teams if the best player ever left in his prime would have a massive drop off surely

*sigh*

And now there's a new generation of Lebrontards. Which sucks because I like Lebron. However, I'm disliking his obnoxious fans as much as the Kobetards now.

There isn't a "black mark" on a career with 5 MVPs (should have had more), 6 Finals MVPS, DPOY, 10 time scoring leader, 6 titles, 6 for 6 in the Finals etc. etc.

EVERY player has failures. It's about how do the failures match up to the triumphs and Jordan's far exceeds his in a way no other player has.

You don't do Lebron any favors by trying this stuff. Just let Lebron reach Jordan status if that's his destiny. If not, then oh well.

[diamenz]

^great posts *high fives*

[K Xerxes]

This is the black mark in my opinion on Jordans legacy that gets ignored too much... he never really did anything until his late 20s when he got all star calibre help from Pippen and a great supporting case, didn't even get to the finals before this.

There is more to basketball than putting up big numbers and highlight reels, I dont think Jordan had the intangibles that made team mates much better. When he left Chicago, the following season, they barely missed a beat. Most teams if the best player ever left in his prime would have a massive drop off surely

I wonder what proportion of the ISH community know the team mates MJ had in the mid 80s. Do you know who Orlando Woolridge and Dave Corzine are?

You think Lebron's supporting cast were scrubs in Cleveland, think about MJ's, and consider the strength of competition he was going up against in the East. :facepalm

[97 bulls]

*sigh*

And now there's a new generation of Lebrontards. Which sucks because I like Lebron. However, I'm disliking his obnoxious fans as much as the Kobetards now.

There isn't a "black mark" on a career with 5 MVPs (should have had more), 6 Finals MVPS, DPOY, 10 time scoring leader, 6 titles, 6 for 6 in the Finals etc. etc.

EVERY player has failures. It's about how do the failures match up to the triumphs and Jordan's far exceeds his in a way no other player has.

You don't do Lebron any favors by trying this stuff. Just let Lebron reach Jordan status if that's his destiny. If not, then oh well.
The bold. Truer words have never been spoken.

I just can't see why some of these posters are so unreasonable. I mean, look at the Bulls team in 86. They played what some feel is arguably the greatest team ever. And they weren't blown out every game by 30 pts. They were only down by two at half time in game and lost in double over time in game two.

Is it so unreasonable to think that if there were drastic upgrades at every position then the Celtics would be in a dog fight? Take coke head Orlando Wooldridge and replace him with a prime Scottie Pippen. Replace a young inexperienced Charles Oakley with a player like Dennis Rodman? Give them the best coach ever in Phil Jackson. Replace Gene Banks with Toni Kukoc? Hell even 86 Jordan was by no means the best we ever saw of him.

The Bulls didn't win because the talent just wasnt there.

[LAZERUSS]

The bold. Truer words have never been spoken.

I just can't see why some of these posters are so unreasonable. I mean, look at the Bulls team in 86. They played what some feel is arguably the greatest team ever. And they weren't blown out every game by 30 pts. They were only down by two at half time in game and lost in double over time in game two.

Is it so unreasonable to think that if there were drastic upgrades at every position then the Celtics would be in a dog fight? Take coke head Orlando Wooldridge and replace him with a prime Scottie Pippen. Replace a young inexperienced Charles Oakley with a player like Dennis Rodman? Give them the best coach ever in Phil Jackson. Replace Gene Banks with Toni Kukoc? Hell even 86 Jordan was by no means the best we ever saw of him.

The Bulls didn't win because the talent just wasnt there.

But, then again, the same applies to Chamberlain, who actually took even worse rosters, and against equally great teams, even further.

Or KAJ in the 70's. Or Oscar in the 60's. Or McAdoo in the mid-70's. Or Moses in the late 70's and early 80's. Or Lebron prior to his Heat days. Or KG in the bulk of the 00's. And I'm sure you could come up with many others.

[97 bulls]

I wonder what proportion of the ISH community know the team mates MJ had in the mid 80s. Do you know who Orlando Woolridge and Dave Corzine are?

You think Lebron's supporting cast were scrubs in Cleveland, think about MJ's, and consider the strength of competition he was going up against in the East. :facepalm
And to add......the Eastern Conference back in the 80s was ten time better than the Eastern Conference we see today and when James was in Cleveland. Teams are literally trying to lose games. Take the 86 Bulls and pit them vs the Eastern Conference teams of today and they'd be a 55 win team.

[SamuraiSWISH]

You think Lebron's supporting cast were scrubs in Cleveland, think about MJ's, and consider the strength of competition he was going up against in the East.
Exactly.

[97 bulls]

But, then again, the same applies to Chamberlain, who actually took even worse rosters, and against equally great teams, even further.

Or KAJ in the 70's. Or Oscar in the 60's. Or McAdoo in the mid-70's. Or Moses in the late 70's and early 80's. Or Lebron prior to his Heat days. Or KG in the bulk of the 00's. And I'm sure you could come up with many others.
But here's the supreme difference. I can point out a year in which every player you mentioned lost a series to a lesser talented team. Jordan led teams never lost to teams they should've beat. NEVER.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Dude couldn't even win a playoff series without Pippen :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[97 bulls]

And they beat teams they probably shouldve lost to.

[LAZERUSS]

But here's the supreme difference. I can point out a year in which every player you mentioned lost a series to a lesser talented team. Jordan led teams never lost to teams they should've beat. NEVER.

Good point, but I would argue that he had the best supporting casts, and playing against lessor competition, as compared to the other "GOATs." MJ's teams never beat a legendary team. Not once. Wilt? His '67 team crushed an eight-time defending champion 60-21 Celtic team (and Wilt just annhilated Russell in the process.) And his 71-72 Lakers, a team which had gone 48-34 just the year before, romped over the defending champion Bucks, who had just wiped out the league in 70-71, and team that many had proclaimed would be the next great dynasty.

And again, Jordan's TEAMMATES were contributing to those titles. In Wilt's case, even when he had quality teammates, many times they just plain puked all over the floor.

[97 bulls]

Dude couldn't even win a playoff series without Pippen :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
He would've had he been able to play against the trash that is the Eastern Conference today. And he didn't call up Charles Barkley and Clyde Drexler and turn into the superfriends

[DonDadda59]

Dude couldn't even win a playoff series without Pippen :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

Well I know playing Larry Bird's Celtics in the first round in consecutive years is more or less the same thing as playing Gilbert Arena's Wizards but let's take a look at your claim that Jordan couldn't win a playoff series without Pippen...

Jordan Regular Season: 35 PPG/ 5.5 RPG/ 6 APG/ 3.2 SPG/ 1.6 BPG (54% FG) Won MVP, DPOY, Scoring Title, All Star MVP, First Team All NBA, First Team All Defense

Pippen Regular Season: 7.9 PPG/ 3.8 RPG/ 2.1 APG/ 1.2 SPG (46% FG)

Jordan First Playoff Series Win: 45 PPG/ 5.4 RPG/ 4.8 APG/ 2.8 SPG/ 1.6 BPG (56% FG)

Pippen in the same series: 10.6 PPG/ 5.2 RPG/ 2.4 APG (47% FG)

So while you may be technically right that Jordan didn't win a playoff series until Pippen joined the Bulls... I think you may be overvaluing his contribution that year just a tad bit :oldlol:

[CavaliersFTW]

Rings are a team accomplishment.
Wilt undisputed GOAT then :applause:

[97 bulls]

Good point, but I would argue that he had the best supporting casts, and playing against lessor competition, as compared to the other "GOATs." MJ's teams never beat a legendary team. Not once. Wilt? His '67 team crushed an eight-time defending champion 60-21 Celtic team (and Wilt just annhilated Russell in the process.) And his 71-72 Lakers, a team which had gone 48-34 just the year before, romped over the defending champion Bucks, who had just wiped out the league in 70-71, and team that many had proclaimed would be the next great dynasty.

And again, Jordan's TEAMMATES were contributing to those titles. In Wilt's case, even when he had quality teammates, many times they just plain puked all over the floor.
Care to explain why the Wilt led Warriors lost to the Syracuse Nationals when they were clearly the favorite? Were they an alltime great team? That never happened to Jordan.

I also take exception to the whack argument of what constitutes a great team. Its not like they faced under 500 teams in the playoffs. Wilts teams lost to a team with an under 500 record.

[PsychoBe]

Well I know playing Larry Bird's Celtics in the first round in consecutive years is more or less the same thing as playing Gilbert Arena's Wizards but let's take a look at your claim that Jordan couldn't win a playoff series without Pippen...

Jordan Regular Season: 35 PPG/ 5.5 RPG/ 6 APG/ 3.2 SPG/ 1.6 BPG (54% FG) Won MVP, DPOY, Scoring Title, All Star MVP, First Team All NBA, First Team All Defense

Pippen Regular Season: 7.9 PPG/ 3.8 RPG/ 2.1 APG/ 1.2 SPG (46% FG)

Jordan First Playoff Series Win: 45 PPG/ 5.4 RPG/ 4.8 APG/ 2.8 SPG/ 1.6 BPG (56% FG)

Pippen in the same series: 10.6 PPG/ 5.2 RPG/ 2.4 APG (47% FG)

So while you may be technically right that Jordan didn't win a playoff series until Pippen joined the Bulls... I think you may be overvaluing his contribution that year just a tad bit :oldlol:

this. stop the madness. pippen's scrub stats and performance wasnt contributing anything until he was whipped into shape.

[TheMan]

I mean, he scored so many points and all, people brag about his 60+ vs Boston, his 37-8-8, etc. Why no rings?
Name me one even one borderline All Star teammate...I thought so. meanwhile, the Celtics, 76ers, Pistons and Lakers had multiple All Stars and future HOFers.

Better question,if KAJ is the GOAT like you claim, why didn't he rack up the chips during the NBA's worst era (70s), he was winning MVPs and "dominating" right?:confusedshrug:

[PsychoBe]

Name me one even one borderline All Star teammate...I thought so. meanwhile, the Celtics, 76ers, Pistons and Lakers had multiple All Stars and future HOFers.

Better question,if KAJ is the GOAT like you claim, why didn't he rack up the chips during the NBA's worst era (70s), he was winning MVPs and "dominating" right?:confusedshrug:

these double standards are disgusting. everyone wants to critique jordan but they can never apply it equally across the board. every great hofer had to go through trials and tribulations but michael jefferey jordan never lost once in the finals when it matters the most.

what is there to argue?

[LAZERUSS]

Care to explain why the Wilt led Warriors lost to the Syracuse Nationals when they were clearly the favorite? Were they an alltime great team? That never happened to Jordan.

I also take exception to the whack argument of what constitutes a great team. Its not like they faced under 500 teams in the playoffs. Wilts teams lost to a team with an under 500 record.

Wilt's TEAMMATES collectively shot .332 from the field in that series, in a post-season that shot an eFG% of .403. BTW, Chamberlain averaged 37 ppg, 23 rpg, and shot .469 from the field (or WAY over the entire post-season league average.)

Give me list of series in which MJ"s team's lost, and see if you can find one in which they collectively shot with as much differential as what Wilt had to deal with that series.

Hell, Wilt single-handedly carried his 61-62 Warriors past Syracuse in the first round of the playoffs, and then to a game seven, two point loss against the 60-20 Celtics (and Russell, of course), in a post-season in which his teammates collectively shot .354 from the floor (and the post-season league average was .411.)

Wilt also took a 40-40 Sixer team, that had gone 34-46 the year before he arrived, to a game seven, one point loss, against the seven-time defending, and 62-18 Celtics (at the peak of their dynasty)...in a series in which he averaged 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, and shot .555 from the field. Find me a .500 team that MJ carried nearly as far.

[TheMan]

So the supposed GOAT, Jordan, can't win a single title in the GOAT decade, but the actual GOAT, Kareem, can win 5.

Interesting. I always had Kareem as the GOAT, but seeing as how he won 5 times in the GOAT decade, well, that just makes this even better.
We gon pretend the stacked ass 80s Lakers weren't Magic's team:oldlol:

When KAJ was clearly the #1 option, he only won one and only when Bill and Wilt were either done or past their prime.Then he joined the stacked Lakers and got carried by Magic to 5 titles.

Let's see, KAJ = 6 NBA titles and 2 FMVPs vs MJ = 6 NBA titles and 6 FMVPs and clearly the best player in every title run, hmmmmmm:oldlol:

[TheMan]

Well I know playing Larry Bird's Celtics in the first round in consecutive years is more or less the same thing as playing Gilbert Arena's Wizards but let's take a look at your claim that Jordan couldn't win a playoff series without Pippen...

Jordan Regular Season: 35 PPG/ 5.5 RPG/ 6 APG/ 3.2 SPG/ 1.6 BPG (54% FG) Won MVP, DPOY, Scoring Title, All Star MVP, First Team All NBA, First Team All Defense

Pippen Regular Season: 7.9 PPG/ 3.8 RPG/ 2.1 APG/ 1.2 SPG (46% FG)

Jordan First Playoff Series Win: 45 PPG/ 5.4 RPG/ 4.8 APG/ 2.8 SPG/ 1.6 BPG (56% FG)

Pippen in the same series: 10.6 PPG/ 5.2 RPG/ 2.4 APG (47% FG)

So while you may be technically right that Jordan didn't win a playoff series until Pippen joined the Bulls... I think you may be overvaluing his contribution that year just a tad bit :oldlol:
:oldlol:

Dat ether

This post should be put up every time these hoops novices throw the "Jordan couldn't win without Pippen" bullshit claim. It was then and is today a lazy ass garbage claim spouted by ignorants who don't know what they're talking about.

[ImKobe]

Well I know playing Larry Bird's Celtics in the first round in consecutive years is more or less the same thing as playing Gilbert Arena's Wizards but let's take a look at your claim that Jordan couldn't win a playoff series without Pippen...

Jordan Regular Season: 35 PPG/ 5.5 RPG/ 6 APG/ 3.2 SPG/ 1.6 BPG (54% FG) Won MVP, DPOY, Scoring Title, All Star MVP, First Team All NBA, First Team All Defense

Pippen Regular Season: 7.9 PPG/ 3.8 RPG/ 2.1 APG/ 1.2 SPG (46% FG)

Jordan First Playoff Series Win: 45 PPG/ 5.4 RPG/ 4.8 APG/ 2.8 SPG/ 1.6 BPG (56% FG)

Pippen in the same series: 10.6 PPG/ 5.2 RPG/ 2.4 APG (47% FG)

So while you may be technically right that Jordan didn't win a playoff series until Pippen joined the Bulls... I think you may be overvaluing his contribution that year just a tad bit :oldlol:

Dat ether.



MJ just wasn't as mature as a player in the 90s and didn't have nearly good enough of a team around him to contend for a championship. Bulls were always a middle of the pack team or slightly better, so they didn't have any high picks coming to them either and facing Pistons/Celtics in the POs every time they made the Playoffs didn't help, either.

[97 bulls]

Wilt's TEAMMATES collectively shot .332 from the field in that series, in a post-season that shot an eFG% of .403. BTW, Chamberlain averaged 37 ppg, 23 rpg, and shot .469 from the field (or WAY over the entire post-season league average.)

Give me list of series in which MJ"s team's lost, and see if you can find one in which they collectively shot with as much differential as what Wilt had to deal with that series.

Hell, Wilt single-handedly carried his 61-62 Warriors past Syracuse in the first round of the playoffs, and then to a game seven, two point loss against the 60-20 Celtics (and Russell, of course), in a post-season in which his teammates collectively shot .354 from the floor (and the post-season league average was .411.)

Wilt also took a 40-40 Sixer team, that had gone 34-46 the year before he arrived, to a game seven, one point loss, against the seven-time defending, and 62-18 Celtics (at the peak of their dynasty)...in a series in which he averaged 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, and shot .555 from the field. Find me a .500 team that MJ carried nearly as far.
All great stats bro. His team still lost to a team they had nooooo business losing to. Bottom line. That never, I REAPEAT, NEVER happened to Jordan led teams. Period.

[LAZERUSS]

All great stats bro. His team still lost to a team they had nooooo business losing to. Bottom line. That never, I REAPEAT, NEVER happened to Jordan led teams. Period.

Hmmm...the 93-94 Bulls went 55-27 without Jordan, BUT, with Horace Grant. They lost Grant to free agency, and then even a fully healthy and rested MJ couldn't beat a Magic team ...with...Horace Grant...in the playoffs. Was that Magic team better than the Bulls? Probably. But Grant certainly has a case as to why. The Bulls certainly had no answer for him in that playoff series.

[97 bulls]

One more point Lazaruss. Im not much of a stats guy. They're interesting, but they dont tell the whole story. Im about results only.

Payton Manning holds the record for most completed passes in Super Bowl history. Great stat right? His team still got blown out. The only reason he was abke to set thats record was because the Seahawks were so far ahead, they played to eliminate the big play and gave him the short passes. Perhaps that Nationals gamelan was to let Wilt score and shut down everyone else.

[LAZERUSS]

One more point Lazaruss. Im not much of a stats guy. They're interesting, but they dont tell the whole story. Im about results only.

Payton Manning holds the record for most completed passes in Super Bowl history. Great stat right? His team still got blown out. The only reason he was abke to set thats record was because the Seahawks were so far ahead, they played to eliminate the big play and gave him the short passes. Perhaps that Nationals gameplan was to let Wilt score and shut down everyone else.

Evidently MJ had the same experiences in the first six seasons of his career, as well. It wasn't until his roster became the best in the league, and with his teammates playing well, that he finally won a title.

Much like Payton...MJ was all about stats in those six seasons...

[mehyaM24]

because bird and magic were playing. its not a coincidence jordan, their whipping boy, didnt start winning until pippen was drafted and bird/magic were either retired or old.

[97 bulls]

Hmmm...the 93-94 Bulls went 55-27 without Jordan, BUT, with Horace Grant. They lost Grant to free agency, and then even a fully healthy and rested MJ couldn't beat a Magic team ...with...Horace Grant...in the playoffs. Was that Magic team better than the Bulls? Probably. But Grant certainly has a case as to why. The Bulls certainly had no answer for him in that playoff series.
So what's the point? If you've followed any of the differences Ive had with Jordan fans, I've always maintained that the Bulls were a great team even without Jordan. But it's also not fair to penalize Jordan for not being able to beat great teams when he had rosters that were mediocre at best.

I'd also like to that what the Bulls did in 94 in no way hurts Jordan. The fact is they were a different team when compared to 93. The 94 team that won 55 games was much more similar to the team that set the alltime record for 72 wins. That's a Seventeen game improvement. And that is far more impressive that taking bad teams and making them better.

[97 bulls]

Evidently MJ had the same experiences in the first six seasons of his career, as well. It wasn't until his roster became the best in the league, and with his teammates playing well, that he finally won a title.

Much like Payton...MJ was all about stats in those six seasons...
Except for the fact that his team wasn't any good. His next best player was a coke head for goodness sake.

[97 bulls]

because bird and magic were playing. its not a coincidence jordan, their whipping boy, didnt start winning until pippen was drafted and bird/magic were either retired or old.
The Bulls beat the Pistons who beat the showtime Lakers. The avg age of that Piston teams core was 28.

[TheMan]

The Bulls beat the Pistons who beat the showtime Lakers. The avg age of that Piston teams core was 28.
Shhhh, that defeats the whole Pistons were old narrative....

[LAZERUSS]

So what's the point? If you've followed any of the differences Ive had with Jordan fans, I've always maintained that the Bulls were a great team even without Jordan. But it's also not fair to penalize Jordan for not being able to beat great teams when he had rosters that were mediocre at best.

I'd also like to that what the Bulls did in 94 in no way hurts Jordan. The fact is they were a different team when compared to 93. The 94 team that won 55 games was much more similar to the team that set the alltime record for 72 wins. That's a Seventeen game improvement. And that is far more impressive that taking bad teams and making them better.

I'm not disputing any of this.

My original point, (and it was basically echoing your's BTW), was that MJ did not win with crappy rosters. Nor did Wilt. Nor did KAJ. Nor did Hakeem (despite whatever some of these morons would claim.) Nor did Shaq. You can go right down the line.

Still, taking bad teams, as Wilt was so often stuck with, and losing game seven's by an eyelash to the eventual champion, was a pretty damned (and seldom mentioned) feat.

In any case, no knowledgeable poster here is going to rip MJ for his "losses." Like Wilt, he was generally brilliant in all of them. These GOATs are often saddled with either poor rosters, or good rosters that blow chunks in big games, or they just plain face better teams.

And as I have claimed all along, MJ is certainly a candidate for the GOAT, if not the leading one. I don't have a problem with those that would make that claim, except when they would preface it by stating that he was the only one.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The Bulls beat the Pistons who beat the showtime Lakers. The avg age of that Piston teams core was 28.

Not agreeing w/ that guy, but to be fair, the Bulls beat a depleted and watered-down version (see zeek's injury) of the "bad boys".

Also not sure where you got that average from, but if Thomas-Laimbeer-Dumars-Rodman-Microwave-Aguirre were their core, it'd be around 30.

[97 bulls]

Not agreeing w/ that guy, but to be fair, the Bulls beat a depleted and watered-down version (see zeek's injury) of the "bad boys".

Also not sure where you got that average from, but if Thomas-Laimbeer-Dumars-Rodman-Microwave-Aguirre were their core, it'd be around 30.
Ok. Were they Old?

[CavaliersFTW]

All great stats bro. His team still lost to a team they had nooooo business losing to. Bottom line. That never, I REAPEAT, NEVER happened to Jordan led teams. Period.
Yeah, sorry, but this is a clear case where you're homerism is getting the best of you and/or Lazeruss's comments are getting on your nerves and you're resorting to acting like Jordan's shit doesn't stink. Seems like you couldn't criticize Jordan if your life depended on it, his career was not water tight. Nobodies was. Other players did things more amazing than he did depending on what you look at. Jordan is one of several players who are at the top, he's not alone up there and he wasn't perfect.

[97 bulls]

Yeah, sorry, but this is a clear case where you're homerism is getting the best of you and/or Lazeruss's comments are getting on your nerves and you're resorting to acting like Jordan's shit doesn't stink. Seems like you couldn't criticize Jordan if your life depended on it, his career was not water tight. Nobodies was. Other players did things more amazing than he did depending on what you look at. Jordan is one of several players who are at the top, he's not alone up there and he wasn't perfect.
It's my understanding that the only criticism of Jordan is that he didn't win in the 80s. Something he really had no control over. My reply is an actual fact. He never lost a series as the favorite. So I think it's more than fair to say that if he had comparable talent to the players of that time, hed easily win championships in the 80s.

[red1]

http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/uDdcpFAxT.JKsMZ9CjF8og--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTIzMDtxPTc1O3c9MzQ1/http://l.yimg.com/j/assets/i/us/sp/v/nba_cutout/players_l/20130626/3118.png
















http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Equals.svg












http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_A6Djk5kGjv8/TQfQ5xwbQvI/AAAAAAAAAKA/6x476US9EYw/s1600/Poop.jpg

[CavaliersFTW]

It's my understanding that the only criticism of Jordan is that he didn't win in the 80s. Something he really had no control over. My reply is an actual fact. He never lost a series as the favorite. So I think it's more than fair to say that if he had comparable talent to the players of that time, hed easily win championships in the 80s.
Number one, can you prove that Wilt's team in 61 was the 'favorites'? (Supply some evidence, some testimonial or news clippings of some sort).

Number two, if you can prove his team was the favorite, do you know what made any Warriors team with Wilt on it "the favorite"? I'll give you a clue, it's the guy in the middle.

Other than Wilt the early warriors teams were weak. Wilt averaged 37p 23r and 2a in that series his team lost as the 'favorites'. That's an all-time great playoff series.

If MJ being on the teams in the 80's didn't make those teams the automatic favorites like Wilt being on his teams did, one could easily flip your logic back on you and suggest that perhaps we should turn our criticisms back on Mike and conclude he simply didn't have the same impact as Wilt, for not making the Bulls the automatic favorites against more traditionally balanced teams? No? Syracuse on paper is a lot deeper than Wilt's warriors in 61. So I'm not sure his team should have ever been considered the favorites if that happened to be the case.

[greymatter]

I wonder what proportion of the ISH community know the team mates MJ had in the mid 80s. Do you know who Orlando Woolridge and Dave Corzine are?

You think Lebron's supporting cast were scrubs in Cleveland, think about MJ's, and consider the strength of competition he was going up against in the East. :facepalm

Orlando Woolwridge was a better 2nd option than anyone Lebron ever had in Cleveland. A guy who was capable of putting up 22.7 at 55% shooting is light years ahead of anyone Lebron had before Miami. The only problem was that a young ballhogging Jordan wasn't a good fit with a 1-dimensional fellow wing scorer like Woolridge. Made sense to ship him out after Jordan's 2nd season.

In any case, no one who isn't a retard can realistically fault a guy for not being able to have much playoff success their first 2 years in the league after joining a 20-something win team.

What idiot MJ jockriders will forever ignore or downplay is the fact that Lebron carried a Cleveland team where his 2nd,3rd best players were Zydrunas Ilgauskas and Larry 40% Hughes to the Finals and will (laughably) huff and puff until they're red insisting that Jordan could have done the same. Jordan needed versatile utility guys around him to fit their games around him. Jordan was incapable of doing it the other way around because of his ego. He may have been the best overall player on both sides of the ball, but there's a very good reason why one of his former teammates threatened to "break his fcuking legs". Unlike Jordan, Lebron's teammates actually love him.

[LAZERUSS]

Number one, can you prove that Wilt's team in 61 was the 'favorites'? (Supply some evidence, some testimonial or news clippings of some sort).

Number two, if you can prove his team was the favorite, do you know what made any Warriors team with Wilt on it "the favorite"? I'll give you a clue, it's the guy in the middle.

Other than Wilt the early warriors teams were weak. Wilt averaged 37p 23r and 2a in that series his team lost as the 'favorites'. That's an all-time great playoff series.

If MJ being on the teams in the 80's didn't make those teams the automatic favorites like Wilt being on his teams did, one could easily flip your logic back on you and suggest that perhaps we should turn our criticisms back on Mike and conclude he simply didn't have the same impact as Wilt, for not making the Bulls the automatic favorites against more traditionally balanced teams? No?

Good points.

I would like to add that Tom Meschery commented following the Warriors game seven, two point loss against Boston in the '62 EDF's., that player-for-player, Boston was better, and that Wilt was the reason why the Warriors were even competitive at all.

And how about the '64 WDF's? Chamberlain (and Hannum) had taken the same basic core of the 31-49 team from 62-63 (they did add rookie Thurmond, who played part-time, and out of position), to a 48-32 record.

In the WDF's, they faced a 46-36 St. Louis Hawks team. Maybe you can find some clippings, but if the Warriors were favorites in that series, it had to be completely because of Wilt.

Take a look at that Hawks roster:

Bill Bridges, Lenny Wilkins, Cliff Hagen, Richie Guerin, Zelmo Beaty, and Bob Pettit. Incidently, Pettit averaged 27.4 ppg that season, and was still an elite player. Now Beaty would go onto have a very good career, with multiple 20+ ppg seasons, and multiple All-Star game appearances. But after the Wilt-Beaty matchup, the Hawks had a HUGE edge in talent. I would argue that, players 2-6, were either better, or WAY better than anyone that Chamberlain had (and yes, I am discounting Thurmond.) Wilt's second best player was Meschery, who averaged 13 ppg.

Furthermore, the Hawks knocked out the Lakers, with a prime West and Baylor, in the first round of the playoffs.

And yet, Wilt almost single-handedly carried that Warrior team to a 4-3 series win, with a 39 ppg, 23 rpg, .559 series. In fact, Wilt was brilliant in every game of that series. He had games of 37-22, 28-27, 46-23, 36-23, 50-15 with 6 assists, 34-24, and a game seven of 39-30 with 10 blocks.

Again, take Wilt away from that Warrior team, and they would have had absolutely no chance.

[SHAQisGOAT]

He didn't do anything..........except revolutionise his SG position, to the extent that it's still held as the "standard" for it, till this day. He also proved that a perimeter player can be just as deadly on both sides of the ball, before SGs were ever thought of as defensive threats.


:coleman:

"before SG's were ever thought of as defensive threats" :facepalm

This thread is just dumb but please stop reaching man. Sid Moncrief was the best SG in the league when Jordan came around and he was playing really good all-around offense while locking guys down on defense, making all-nba 1st team, winning couple of dpoy's, leading his team in points, rebounds and assists, great all-around baller, both ways... Even much before, Jerry West was just great on both sides, dudes like DJ, Micheal Ray or Jerry Sloan were capable of really good offense and defense. Michael Cooper, another example, not that good offense as some of those guys but solid enough and beastly defense. (not even gonna mention other perimeter positions)
As far as offense only, SG's like David Thompson or Walter Davis, even some others, had plenty of similarities to MJ's game (before MJ), just that he took it to new heights, as ridiculous as that is.

He didn't revolutionize nothing in the way you speak of, he just took it to a whole nother level, a level very few even reached (overall).

[Knoe Itawl]

What idiot MJ jockriders will forever ignore or downplay is the fact that Lebron carried a Cleveland team where his 2nd,3rd best players were Zydrunas Ilgauskas and Larry 40% Hughes to the Finals and will (laughably) huff and puff until they're red insisting that Jordan could have done the same. Jordan needed versatile utility guys around him to fit their games around him. Jordan was incapable of doing it the other way around because of his ego. He may have been the best overall player on both sides of the ball, but there's a very good reason why one of his former teammates threatened to "break his fcuking legs". Unlike Jordan, Lebron's teammates actually love him.

You know, it actually is possible to be a Jordan fan, appreciate what Bron's done, but not think he's better than Jordan right? I've constantly defended Lebron against attacks on his Cleveland era. But then you have people such as yourself who want to say take it too far by suggesting Jordan couldn't have had equal or more success with those teams. A guy who averaged 32, 8 and 8 on 50 plus percent, etc. etc.

And you cite one incident of a teammate having an issue with Jordan, when there are tons of examples of how his teammates respected and admired him. I'm sure many liked him as well. He frequently talked about their comraderie. At the end of the day, however, what matters most is that a player is able to maximize his team's efforts, something Jordan was obviously able to do.

Again, you guys don't do Lebron any favors to constantly come up with garbage just to prop him up. People that are non-Kobetards and other assorted haters with limited bball IQ understand what he's been able to accomplish.

[97 bulls]

Number one, can you prove that Wilt's team in 61 was the 'favorites'? (Supply some evidence, some testimonial or news clippings of some sort).

Number two, if you can prove his team was the favorite, do you know what made any Warriors team with Wilt on it "the favorite"? I'll give you a clue, it's the guy in the middle.

Other than Wilt the early warriors teams were weak. Wilt averaged 37p 23r and 2a in that series his team lost as the 'favorites'. That's an all-time great playoff series.

If MJ being on the teams in the 80's didn't make those teams the automatic favorites like Wilt being on his teams did, one could easily flip your logic back on you and suggest that perhaps we should turn our criticisms back on Mike and conclude he simply didn't have the same impact as Wilt, for not making the Bulls the automatic favorites against more traditionally balanced teams? No? Syracuse on paper is a lot deeper than Wilt's warriors in 61. So I'm not sure his team should have ever been considered the favorites if that happened to be the case.

Other than Wilt the early warriors teams were weak. Wilt averaged 37p 23r and 2a in that series his team lost as the 'favorites'. That's an all-time great playoff series.*

They had two other hofers on that team.

What made them the favorite is that they had a better record than the Nationals.

How many times did a Jordan led team lose to a team with a better record than them in the playoffs.

[LAZERUSS]

They had two other hofers on that team.

What made them the favorite is that they had a better record than the Nationals.

How many times did a Jordan led team lose to a team with a better record than them in the playoffs.

One of those "HOFers" was Tom Gola. Go ahead and look up his career stats, and you tell me if he was a HOFer.

Oh, and BTW, those two "HOFers" shot .325 and .206 from the field in that series. Wilt would have been better off battling Syracuse 3 against 5.

And the Nats under-achieved that season, as well. They actually had a higher SRS than the Warriors.

[MichaelCorleone]

Bad Boys.

[CavaliersFTW]

They had two other hofers on that team.

What made them the favorite is that they had a better record than the Nationals.

How many times did a Jordan led team lose to a team with a better record than them in the playoffs.
Having two HOFers on your team in the 60s didn't mean jack, there was 8 teams in the league back then, even the garbage teams back then had 'multiple HOF'ers' it didn't mean they were loaded with talent or any good compared to the actual good teams back then. Wilt's warriors teams were weak as hell. Subtract Wilt and they are a losing team, just like they were before they signed Wilt and he won the scoring title and MVP - as a rookie.

[DetroitPiston]

I've only seen one instance of someone calling the OP out on the title? Y'all are slipping.

Anyway, Celtics, Lakers, and Pistons, no Phil Jackson/Tex Winter to teach the Bulls how to be a team, and timing.

[Stringer Bell]

What teams of the Bulls in the 80s were championship caliber?

[MisterAmazing]

yeah, really "weak" defenses

http://theshire3.edublogs.org/files/2009/06/p1_jordan2_getty.jpg

[jzek]

Kobe and LeBron would leave the league and play overseas if they played against this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLv2F33snCE


The Jordan Rules
by Jack McCallum

The guiding principle is that a defender is never left to guard Jordan unaided. Jordan's position on the floor dictates whether the Pistons trap him with a second defender or have the second defender play "help and recover" (that is, run at Jordan to stop his dribble, but then scramble back to his own man; Salley is a master at this ploy). The closer Jordan is to the basket, the more the Pistons go with the trap. When he is above the sideline hash mark (28 feet from the baseline), they usually play help and recover.

Even when Jordan is far from the basket, perhaps bringing up the ball as a point guard on a wide-open floor, Detroit runs a second player at him, someone like Salley or Rodman. This reduces the amount of open court that he has to work with and often forces him to give up the ball to a teammate. The Pistons always want someone else to handle the ball. Not sometimes. Always.

When Jordan has the ball on the wing, the Detroit player guarding him forces him toward defensive help. Most often that means turning Jordan to the right when he's on the left side of the floor and to the left when he's on the right side.

If Jordan happens to get isolated with one man and is in a potential scoring position, the Piston defender will try to force him to go left. They think he makes a stronger, more explosive move to his right. So does Jordan.

When Jordan tries to run a pick-and-roll, Detroit traps him. That means that two men, the one guarding Jordan and the one guarding the Bull setting the pick, run at him. The Pistons do this with remarkable efficiency, partly because that second defender is usually the 6 ft. 11 in. Salley or the 6 ft. 11 in. Laimbeer. The tall trappers make it almost impossible for Jordan to deliver the ball to a teammate rolling toward the basket, and their aggressive charge toward Jordan usually forces him to retreat.

When Jordan posts up near the basket, Detroit typically puts three men on him, with Dumars most often behind him, using his strong hips and legs to "body" Jordan away from the basket. When the entry pass comes in from the point guard, Thomas leaves that guard and double-teams Jordan. If that means the point guard is free, so be it. Meanwhile, another defender, perhaps Laimbeer or Salley, will have come over and planted himself in the lane, maybe on the baseline side, maybe toward the middle. Dumars will then turn Jordan toward that help. Jordan loves the baseline. "Even though there's less room down there, I can be more creative," he says. But by and large, the Pistons take it away from him.

When Jordan comes off a screen set near the baseline -- his most frequent maneuver when he's playing shooting guard -- a host of Jordan Rules come into play. Dumars must follow him around the screen -- no matter if he has to go into the bleachers -- to prevent Jordan from making a backdoor cut and receiving an alley-oop pass for an almost certain dunk. The Piston -- usually Laimbeer -- guarding the Bull setting the pick will step out to make Jordan receive the ball farther from the basket. In addition -- and this is important -- that man will guard against Jordan's making a "tight curl" off the top of the screen and suddenly looping back into the middle to take a short pass on the dead run, a circumstance that is almost always disastrous for the defense.

In most cases Jordan will have to step back and take the pass on the wing. Then Thomas will come over, creating a double team, and the process begins all over again. If Jordan puts the ball on the floor, at least two players stay on him, pushing him toward even more help. If he passes, the weakside defenders adjust to play two Pistons against four Bulls or one against three. As long as Jordan is out of the picture, they love those odds.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

LeBron did more with less and thats a fact:applause: :applause: :bowdown:

[diamenz]

LeBron did more with less and thats a fact:applause: :applause: :bowdown:

go rub his nose, scrub.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

go rub his nose, scrub.
mad:roll: :roll: :roll:

[shaunliv]

"defensively weak 80's" that is the most ignorant statement I've heard in a second. The 80's was one of the toughest eras ever in the NBA. You could actually body up people via hand checks and such. It's where the term "no blood, no foul" came from.

Where plays like the one below didn't even warrant a technical foul or suspension:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7r6vXeOfyQ

learn your facts kid before making statements.

[pauk]

Because this is not a 1vs1 game.

[Trollsmasher]

What would you expect from a statpadder that does not even have a winning record when playing without a HOF teammate? Beating Bird or Magic?

Luckily, the only thing Jordan stans need for satisfaction are stats, so I guess playing in the fast paced, defensively weak '80s where he could become the original statpadder with 40% usage was good for them.

Then Bird and Magic retired and Jordan got a free ride to 6 rings in the weakest era in NBA history with the team so stacked it was most likely one bullshit call away from winning a ring without him or even without a solid replacement for him

[Marlo_Stanfield]

What would you expect from a statpadder that does not even have a winning record when playing without a HOF teammate? Beating Bird or Magic?

Luckily, the only thing Jordan stans need for satisfaction are stats, so I guess playing in the fast paced, defensively weak '80s where he could become the original statpadder with 40% usage was good for them.

Then Bird and Magic retired and Jordan got a free ride to 6 rings in the weakest era in NBA history with the team so stacked it was most likely one bullshit call away from winning a ring without him or even without a solid replacement for him
:applause: :applause:hes still top 4 doe:no:

[K Xerxes]

What would you expect from a statpadder that does not even have a winning record when playing without a HOF teammate? Beating Bird or Magic?

Luckily, the only thing Jordan stans need for satisfaction are stats, so I guess playing in the fast paced, defensively weak '80s where he could become the original statpadder with 40% usage was good for them.

Then Bird and Magic retired and Jordan got a free ride to 6 rings in the weakest era in NBA history with the team so stacked it was most likely one bullshit call away from winning a ring without him or even without a solid replacement for him

The sad thing is that you literally put together all of the possible criticisms one could make about Jordan into those three small paragraphs. Obviously all bullshit, but what else can you say about a man who won 6 championships and FMVPs? Never once losing with HCA or as a favorite? Never once choking on the biggest stage?

If I did the same with Lebron, I could drag it out to a legitimate essay. Topics including, but not limited to: collusion, only winning with 2 all stars, weak & soft era (East), 2007 finals, 2008 games 1-4 vs Celtics, 2010 quitting vs Celtics, GOAT chokejob in 2011 finals, one Ray shot from losing 2013 etc etc.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

The sad thing is that you literally put together all of the possible criticisms one could make about Jordan into those three small paragraphs. Obviously all bullshit, but what else can you say about a man who won 6 championships and FMVPs? Never once losing with HCA or as a favorite? Never once choking on the biggest stage?

If I did the same with Lebron, I could drag it out to a legitimate essay. Topics including, but not limited to: collusion, only winning with 2 all stars, weak & soft era (East), 2007 finals, 2008 games 1-4 vs Celtics, 2010 quitting vs Celtics, GOAT chokejob in 2011 finals, one Ray shot from losing 2013 etc etc.
:cry: :cry: :cry:

[Trollsmasher]

The sad thing is that you literally put together all of the possible criticisms one could make about Jordan into those three small paragraphs. Obviously all bullshit, but what else can you say about a man who won 6 championships and FMVPs? Never once losing with HCA or as a favorite? Never once choking on the biggest stage?

If I did the same with Lebron, I could drag it out to a legitimate essay. Topics including, but not limited to: collusion, only winning with 2 all stars, weak & soft era (East), 2007 finals, 2008 games 1-4 vs Celtics, 2010 quitting vs Celtics, GOAT chokejob in 2011 finals, one Ray shot from losing 2013 etc etc.
Topics including, but not limited to with MJ: no D era in his early career, weakest era later, '86 game 3 quit, 3x 1st round loss, publicly crying like a kid after repeatedly getting beat down by Pistons, shots by Kerr and Paxson away from having 2 less rings, team cancer & egomaniac, shotjacker & statpadder, '94 & '95 quitting, games 4-6 vs Sonics, whole '98 postseason, career underachiever, not winning without GOAT coach & GOAT 2nd option, does not have a winning record without a HOF teammate (over 300 games sample size)...

I could go on and on...

[97 bulls]

The sad thing is that you literally put together all of the possible criticisms one could make about Jordan into those three small paragraphs. Obviously all bullshit, but what else can you say about a man who won 6 championships and FMVPs? Never once losing with HCA or as a favorite? Never once choking on the biggest stage?

If I did the same with Lebron, I could drag it out to a legitimate essay. Topics including, but not limited to: collusion, only winning with 2 all stars, weak & soft era (East), 2007 finals, 2008 games 1-4 vs Celtics, 2010 quitting vs Celtics, GOAT chokejob in 2011 finals, one Ray shot from losing 2013 etc etc.
Heres the main point. Why penalize Jordan for not winning every year? When he was not supposed to. Let's just discuss the outcome of players teams as it pertains to when they're supposed to win. Saying that, only six times, in Jordan's career could it be said that the team he played on was supposed to win. Maybe 7 if you want to count 1990. But then again, no one outside of Bulls fans truly believed they could beat the Pistons in 1990. With that being said..... hes six for six. Only him and Bill Russell can make that claim.

[Im Still Ballin]

Topics including, but not limited to with MJ: no D era in his early career, weakest era later, '86 game 3 quit, 3x 1st round loss, publicly crying like a kid after repeatedly getting beat down by Pistons, shots by Kerr and Paxson away from having 2 less rings, team cancer & egomaniac, shotjacker & statpadder, '94 & '95 quitting, games 4-6 vs Sonics, whole '98 postseason, career underachiever, not winning without GOAT coach & GOAT 2nd option, does not have a winning record without a HOF teammate (over 300 games sample size)...

I could go on and on...

This.

[97 bulls]

Topics including, but not limited to with MJ: no D era in his early career, weakest era later, '86 game 3 quit, 3x 1st round loss, publicly crying like a kid after repeatedly getting beat down by Pistons, shots by Kerr and Paxson away from having 2 less rings, team cancer & egomaniac, shotjacker & statpadder, '94 & '95 quitting, games 4-6 vs Sonics, whole '98 postseason, career underachiever, not winning without GOAT coach & GOAT 2nd option, does not have a winning record without a HOF teammate (over 300 games sample size)...

I could go on and on...
Lol. This is such a rediculous post.

[97 bulls]

What would you expect from a statpadder that does not even have a winning record when playing without a HOF teammate? Beating Bird or Magic?

Luckily, the only thing Jordan stans need for satisfaction are stats, so I guess playing in the fast paced, defensively weak '80s where he could become the original statpadder with 40% usage was good for them.

Then Bird and Magic retired and Jordan got a free ride to 6 rings in the weakest era in NBA history with the team so stacked it was most likely one bullshit call away from winning a ring without him or even without a solid replacement for him
But he was putting up great stats in the mid 90s as well. Still leading the league in scoring, winning MVPs etc. So what's the point?

[97 bulls]

Heres the main point. Why penalize Jordan for not winning every year? When he was not supposed to. Let's just discuss the outcome of players teams as it pertains to when they're supposed to win. Saying that, only six times, in Jordan's career could it be said that the team he played on was supposed to win. Maybe 7 if you want to count 1990. But then again, no one outside of Bulls fans truly believed they could beat the Pistons in 1990. With that being said..... hes six for six. Only him and Bill Russell can make that claim.
Check that. Even the mighty Bill Russell can't make that claim. In 58, the Boston Celtics had the best record in the NBA at 49 wins but lost to St.Louis who won 41 games.

[K Xerxes]

Topics including, but not limited to with MJ: no D era in his early career, weakest era later, '86 game 3 quit, 3x 1st round loss, publicly crying like a kid after repeatedly getting beat down by Pistons, shots by Kerr and Paxson away from having 2 less rings, team cancer & egomaniac, shotjacker & statpadder, '94 & '95 quitting, games 4-6 vs Sonics, whole '98 postseason, career underachiever, not winning without GOAT coach & GOAT 2nd option, does not have a winning record without a HOF teammate (over 300 games sample size)...

I could go on and on...

This has to be a joke, even for a troll. :roll:

Love how you just put 'whole 98 postseason' when he won the FMVP and hit the gamewinner as a 35 year old.

Or shots by Kerr and Paxson away from 2 less rings... even though there would still have been a game 7. Not the same as Ray's season saving shot.

Team cancer, egomaniac, statpadder, shotjacker? Bulls won 6 championships with him as a leader in an 8 year period. Doesn't sound bad.

3x 1st round loss and quit in 86... you are pathetic. :lol

No matter what Lebron ends up accomplishing, he will have legitimate black marks on his resume. Jordan never lost once with HCA or as a favorite. He failed early on in his career, but once the team around him was good enough, he led them to victory in six seasons. No shame in admitting that this is a team game. Lebron failed as the favorite with HCA with a stacked team to the tune of arguably the most pathetic finals performances by a superstar EVER.

Lebron's realistic ceiling is second all time, if that.

[Calabis]

LeBron did more with less and thats a fact:applause: :applause: :bowdown:

Lmao yeah Jordan was losing to shitty teams like the 80s Celtics and Pistons...with those stacked teams of corzine, sellers, banks, oakley and paxson. Lebron dominated a tough eastern conf. Smh.

[Calabis]

Jazz were favored to beat the Bulls 98 as were the Lakers

[97 bulls]

This has to be a joke, even for a troll. :roll:

Love how you just put 'whole 98 postseason' when he won the FMVP and hit the gameunner as a 35 year old.

Or shots by Kerr and Paxson away from 2 less rings... even though there would still have been a game 7. Not the same as Ray's season saving shot.

Team cancer, egomaniac, statpadder, shotjacker? Bulls won 6 championships with him as a leader in an 8 year period. Doesn't sound bad.

3x 1st round loss and quit in 86... you are pathetic. :lol

No matter what Lebron ends up accomplishing, he will have legitimate black marks on his resume. Jordan never lost once with HCA or as a favorite. He failed early on in his career, but once the team around him was good enough, he led them to victory in six seasons. No shame in admitting that this is a team game. Lebron failed as the favorite with HCA with a stacked team to the tune of arguably the most pathetic finals performances by a superstar EVER.

Lebron's realistic ceiling is second all time, if that.
Their argument is a friggn joke. The 66 win Cavs lost to the 59 win Magic who didn't even have their second best player in Jameer Nelson. Its just unbelievable. I mean, talk about throwing stones out of a glass house.

[97 bulls]

Jazz were favored to beat the Bulls 98 as were the Lakers
And the Bulls were still competing for best record during that season without Scottie Pippen.

[Calabis]

And the Bulls were still competing for best record during that season without Scottie Pippen.

But Lebron though was killing HOF member stacked teams in the east when he was with Cleveland.

[Black Mamba's B]

Most uninformed fans think Jordan was automatically the best player soon as he stepped in the league. It took a little bit of time to reach the highest level and he eventually did. Jordan went against better teams - Bucks, Pistons, Celtics, Lakers, etc and went against better players - Bird, Magic.

The success Jordan came across in the 90's was a combination of him ascending to greatness and becoming the best player, a great supporting cast being built around him and the dominant teams of the 80's falling off

[russwest0]

How come Jordan couldn't win one title in the defensively weak 80s?

He was just coasting.

[Nevaeh]

:coleman:

"before SG's were ever thought of as defensive threats" :facepalm

This thread is just dumb but please stop reaching man. Sid Moncrief was the best SG in the league when Jordan came around and he was playing really good all-around offense while locking guys down on defense, making all-nba 1st team, winning couple of dpoy's, leading his team in points, rebounds and assists, great all-around baller, both ways... Even much before, Jerry West was just great on both sides, dudes like DJ, Micheal Ray or Jerry Sloan were capable of really good offense and defense. Michael Cooper, another example, not that good offense as some of those guys but solid enough and beastly defense. (not even gonna mention other perimeter positions)
As far as offense only, SG's like David Thompson or Walter Davis, even some others, had plenty of similarities to MJ's game (before MJ), just that he took it to new heights, as ridiculous as that is.

He didn't revolutionize nothing in the way you speak of, he just took it to a whole nother level, a level very few even reached (overall).


That's my point though. He raised the standard to the point where perimeter defense could be just as dominant as protecting the paint. Jordan was the player that commentators were saying that you always had to keep your eye on, based on how he roamed the floor definsively. 200 steals and 100 blocks for 2 straight years ain't nothing to sneeze at, all while dropping 30+ points per game.

Even when you guys compliment Jordan, you still try to minimize his impact in the same damn post. Last time I checked, "Taking stuff to a whole nother level" was considered "revolutionary".

[CavaliersFTW]

That's my point though. He raised the standard to the point where perimeter defense could be just as dominant as protecting the paint. Jordan was the player that commentators were saying that you always had to keep your eye on, based on how he roamed the floor definsively. 200 steals and 100 blocks for 2 straight years ain't nothing to sneeze at, all while dropping 30+ points per game.

Even when you guys compliment Jordan, you still try to minimize his impact in the same damn post. Last time I checked, "Taking stuff to a whole nother level" was considered "revolutionary".
Uh, no, Jerry West and Clyde Frazier were doing pretty much the same thing on the defensive end a long time before Jordan. And in West's case he was also virtually as dominant on the offensive end just like Jordan. Jordan didn't revolutionize 2-way guard impact, maybe influenced some guard play stylistically in how he palmed and carried the ball and by playing above the rim, but his raw defensive punch wasn't anything new for backcourt NBA players, not even for superstar or dominant offensive ones because as I stated Jerry West was a dominant defensive guard.

[97 bulls]

Uh, no, Jerry West and Clyde Frazier were doing pretty much the same thing on the defensive end a long time before Jordan
West and Frasier were blocking over 100 shots a season?

[Nevaeh]

West and Frasier were blocking over 100 shots a season?

Not to mention that Jordan's ranked number 3 all-time in career steals, behind Stockton and Jason Kidd, 2 guys with ridiculously long career longevity, at 19 straight years apiece. Neither West nor Frazier even cracks the top 30 list for steals, nor the top 100 for blocks (Jordan's at 99, with a whole lotta Big Men ahead of him).

[Legends66NBA7]

Not to mention that Jordan's ranked number 3 all-time in career steals, behind Stockton and Jason Kidd, 2 guys with ridiculously long career longevity, at 19 straight years apiece. Neither West nor Frazier even cracks the top 30 list for steals, nor the top 100 for blocks (Jordan's at 99, with a whole lotta Big Men ahead of him).

No Nev, you can't use all-time steals against West and Frazier.

West and Fraizer don't crack the Top 30 in steals because for all but West's final season steals and blocks were recorded. In West's final season alone he averaged 2.6spg in 31 games. Just imagine how many he would have had before that. He would have clearly been right up there with Jordan if not more.

Same with Frazier, steals and blocks weren't recorded in his first 6 seasons. In his final 7 seasons, 4 of them he averaged over 1.5spg.

Now on blocks, neither I think would challenge Jordan here, but I think West would be up there. He did have long arms and good enough hops.

I'm not saying their overall better, but they don't have the record book on their side either which by no means is their fault.

[Legends66NBA7]

Also, Jerry West holds the Lakers record for steals in a game with 9. It's a 40 year old record now. That speaks volumes about how many steals he could have possibly had in his better defensive seasons.

[Nevaeh]

Also, Jerry West holds the Lakers record for steals in a game with 9. It's a 40 year old record now. That speaks volumes about how many steals he could have possibly had in his better defensive seasons.

Good points Legends, but my point still stands that Jordan was revolutionary on what he was able to accomplish, with regards to how he stacked up against his peers, and how he stacked up based on how stats were recorded

We can do the "imagine if" game with every player, as this Board proves in thread after thread. I just have a problem with this trend of trying to minimize what actually happened and playing up what "coulda happened, if......." all the damn time.

[Legends66NBA7]

Good points Legends, but my point still stands that Jordan was revolutionary on what he was able to accomplish, with regards to how he stacked up against his peers, and how he stacked up based on how stats were recorded

We can do the "imagine if" game with every player, as this Board proves in thread after thread. I just have a problem with this trend of trying to minimize what actually happened and playing up what "coulda happened, if......." all the damn time.

Oh I agree with your overall point. Jordan is a Top 10 defensive guard/perimeter player. Especially when you consider he had such an offensive burden to carry too. He's very revolutionary in that regard, but I feel you on when people try to downplay that (not exactly here) in threads. Fortunately, more and more and facts come out pointing in favour of Jordan.

[CavaliersFTW]

West and Frasier were blocking over 100 shots a season?
Jerry West most certainly. Jerry West was an elite shot blocking guard.

[shaunliv]

I'm so glad I was able to watch REAL basketball in the 80's and 90's...you new school cats with basically no understanding of the past, think that your generation invented the effin wheel. You same idiots, who think Lebron or Kobe are the greatest, also think Lil Wayne or Drake is the GOAT MC. Not even worth debating...I'm out!