Are the 04 Pistons the GOAT Defense?

[kobebeangoat]

Dominated and had a 8 game stretch of these points allowed

68
66
65
65
69
71
75
76

:confusedshrug:

[JohnFreeman]

Yes.

[tpols]

Yes. Statistically best ever.. slow grueling pace.. extremely physical and coached by one of GOAT defensive coaches. Same guy who had bobcats as a number one defense in 2010.. given Ben Wallace, Sheed, Prince, Billups etc. Unfair.

[Smook A.]

With the Rasheed Wallace trade, this team took it to another level defensively. At one point they held 4 teams in a row to below 70 points. This is just insane and unheard of. They held 8 teams in a row below 80 points. They eventually won the championship that year with their amazing defense. Ben Wallace was the defensive anchor or this team, and he made them good at defense starting at 2001. He won 4 DPOYs while there in Detriot.

IMO, I do think the '04 Pistons were the greatest defensive team ever

[Milbuck]

I went to go see games 1 & 5 of their 1st round matchup against the Bucks in the playoffs that year. They were unreal. Just a ferocious defense. We were helpless :oldlol:

[kobebeangoat]

I made this thread because I saw someone say the 2008 Celtics were the best ever. Do the Pistons have the record for least PPG allowed in a single season?

[ImKobe]

Let's put it this way: Their defense was so good that the NBA was forced to remove handchecking.

[MMM]

I made this thread because I saw someone say the 2008 Celtics were the best ever. Do the Pistons have the record for least PPG allowed in a single season?

I think an argument can be made for the 08 Celtics, not sure how strong of an argument. The League did change a lot from the early 2000s to the late 2000s and ppg might not be the best statistic to compare the two teams.

[ImKobe]

I think an argument can be made for the 08 Celtics, not sure how strong of an argument. The League did change a lot from the early 2000s to the late 2000s and ppg might not be the best statistic to compare the two teams.

Didn't the opposing teams have a fg% of 38 against the 2004 Pistons? That's some next level ish.

[Cold soul]

Yes, they rank pretty high up there. 08 Celtics defense has been the only defense recently that were in same ballpark when comes to 04 Pistons. The 04 Pistons defense was a little greater though.

[Upgrayedd]

GOAT? I think another Pistons team can take that title. Those '80s Pistons with Dennis Rodman, Thomas, Laimbeer and Dumars.

[DonDadda59]

According to DRTG, they were the second best defense in the league the year they played. And we all know DRTG don't lie.

[arifgokcen]

I think they were the GOAT defensive team.They were the last of their kind.

Combination of handchecking and advanced technology.

I can comfortably tell you that their games were by far the most boring games i have watched.Most of the time,other teams were so helpless that they would give up.They would go after you like hungry cheetah.

[inclinerator]

yes goat defense, hand checking along with zone, they were like the heat with their swarming d on the perimeter but also hand inside presence protection and they played it consistently

[fpliii]

According to DRTG, they were the second best defense in the league the year they played. And we all know DRTG don't lie.
94.0 DRtg in the regular season after acquiring Sheed, and the exact same 94.0 in the playoffs. Both are good for 1st that year.

[MMM]

what are some other teams in contention other than the 04 Det and 08 Bos not many specific teams get attention for being elite defensive teams.

[Milbuck]

what are some other teams in contention other than the 04 Det and 08 Bos not many specific teams get attention for being elite defensive teams.
http://image2.stadiumjourney.com/images/stadiums/107_1971_NBA_Champions_Milwaukee_Bucks_Banner.jpg

[SamuraiSWISH]

I actually think the 2008 Celtics were better.

[MMM]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=148397

pretty solid thread on great defensive teams. Interesting choice on some of the specific teams, for example why 05 Spurs over 99 or 04???

[fpliii]

what are some other teams in contention other than the 04 Det and 08 Bos not many specific teams get attention for being elite defensive teams.
Well, if we go recently (meaning the Russell Celtics and those 70s Knicks teams aren't considered) here are the contenders (best year in parentheses):

Riley Knicks 92-95 (93)
KG Celtics 08-13 (08)
Pistons with Ben/Sheed 04-06 (04)
Twin Towers Spurs 98-03 (99)
Post-Robinson Spurs 04-08 (04)
Thibs Bulls 11-present (11)
Bad Boys Pistons 87-92 (90)
Dwight's Magic 07-11 (09)
Zo's Heat 96-02 (97)
Current Heat 10-present (12)
Current Pacers 11-present (this year is actually the 3rd GOAT defense relative to league average)
Deke's Hawks 97-00 (99)

EDIT: Oops sorry, forgot the Jordan Bulls:
Jackson/MJ/Pippen Bulls 89-98 (96, 92 from the first threepeat)

[MMM]

Well, if we go recently (meaning the Russell Celtics and those 70s Knicks teams aren't considered) here are the contenders (best year in parentheses):

Riley Knicks 92-95 (93)
KG Celtics 08-13 (08)
Pistons with Ben/Sheed 04-06 (04)
Twin Towers Spurs 98-03 (99)
Post-Robinson Spurs 04-08 (04)
Thibs Bulls 11-present (11)
Bad Boys Pistons 87-92 (90)
Dwight's Magic 07-11 (09)
Zo's Heat 96-02 (97)
Current Heat 10-present (12)
Current Pacers 11-present (this year is actually the 3rd GOAT defense relative to league average)

lot more current teams than i expected. no mid to late 90s hawks or 2nd 3 peat Bulls.

[fpliii]

lot more current teams than i expected. no mid to late 90s hawks or 2nd 3 peat Bulls.
Those are just some of my picks. I added the Bulls, bad omission on my part. The Hawks were dominant (especially in 97, 99) too. Deke's 94 Nuggets were good too.

[fpliii]

The ten best defenses, I've ever seen, their reign, their peak and ranked:

1) Riley Knicks '92 - '95, Peak 1993
2) KG's Celtics '08 - '12, Peak 2008
3) Big Ben's Pistons '03 - '06, Peak 2004
4) Twin Towers Spurs '98 - '03, Peak 2001
5) The Dynasty Bulls '96 - '98, Peak 1996

6) Bad Boy Pistons '87 - '91, Peak 1990
7) Zo and Riley's Heat '96 - '02, Peak 1997
8) LeBron's Heat '11- Present, Peak 2012
9) Hibbert's Pacers '12 - Present, Peak 2014
10) Duncan's Spurs '04 - '13, Peak 2005
This is actually a very good list. I might not agree 100% with the order, but it's good. I think it might be worth extending the Dynasty Bulls back to 90 (Phil's first season), they were great when they had MJ/Scottie/Grant wreaking havoc.

[SamuraiSWISH]

According to DRTG, they were the second best defense in the league the year they played. And we all know DRTG don't lie.
DRTG has so many variables.


I think it might be worth extending the Dynasty Bulls back to 90 (Phil's first season), they were great when they had MJ/Scottie/Grant wreaking havoc.
Agreed, I re-ranked. Forgot Payton's Sonics defensive dominance.

The ten best defenses, I've ever seen, their reign, their peak and ranked:

1) Riley Knicks '92 - '95, Peak 1993
2) KG's Celtics '08 - '12, Peak 2008
3) Big Ben's Pistons '03 - '06, Peak 2004
4) Twin Towers Spurs '98 - '03, Peak 2001
5) The Dynasty Bulls '90 - '98, Peak 1996

6) Bad Boy Pistons '87 - '91, Peak 1990
7) Zo and Riley's Heat '96 - '02, Peak 1997
8) LeBron's Heat '11- Present, Peak 2012
9) Hibbert's Pacers '12 - Present, Peak 2014
10) The Glove's Sonics '94 - '97, Peak 1996

Defensive rating alone is deceiving. It weighs more heavily on statistical proof of defense, such as steals, blocks, etc. Sound fundamental defense without a turnover as a result can't be weighed or valued as heavily statistically.

Based on defensive rating Joe Dumars isn't a good defender. At all. Watching him, he's great.

Plus defensive rating is subject to variables like pace. Based on eye test, I ranked the teams to how dominant I felt each was playing defense.

[fpliii]

The ten best defenses, I've ever seen, their reign, their peak and ranked:

1) Riley Knicks '92 - '95, Peak 1993
2) KG's Celtics '08 - '12, Peak 2008
3) Big Ben's Pistons '03 - '06, Peak 2004
4) Twin Towers Spurs '98 - '03, Peak 2001
5) The Dynasty Bulls '90 - '98, Peak 1996

6) Bad Boy Pistons '87 - '91, Peak 1990
7) Zo and Riley's Heat '96 - '02, Peak 1997
8) LeBron's Heat '11- Present, Peak 2012
9) Hibbert's Pacers '12 - Present, Peak 2014
10) Duncan's Spurs '04 - '13, Peak 2005

Defensive rating alone is deceiving. It weighs more heavily on statistical proof of defense, such as steals, blocks, etc. Sound fundamental defense without a turnover as a result can't be weighed or valued as heavily statistically.

Based on defensive rating Joe Dumars isn't a good defender. At all. Watching him, he's great.

Plus defensive rating is subject to variables like pace. Based on eye test, I ranked the teams to how dominant I felt each was playing defense.
One note...individual defensive rating is shit. It relies on two stats, stops1 and stops2. stops1 is garbage, and is just blocks, steals, and defensive rebounds. This screws over perimeter defenders. stops2 isn't bad, and takes into account forced turnovers and forced misses. But anyhow, there are two major problems:

[QUOTE]1) Out of necessity (owing to a lack of defensive data in the basic boxscore), individual Defensive Ratings are heavily influenced by the team's defensive efficiency. They assume that all teammates are equally good (per minute) at forcing non-steal turnovers and non-block misses, as well as assuming that all teammates face the same number of total possessions per minute.

2) Perhaps as a byproduct, big men tend to have the best Defensive Ratings (although Oliver notes that history's best defensive teams were generally anchored by dominant defensive big men, suggesting that those types of players are the most important to a team's defensive success). [B]A corollary to this is that excellent perimeter defenders who don't steal the ball a lot

[SamuraiSWISH]

fpliii,

I want to see your ten best defensive list that you've ever seen. My requirement is that the team had to be able to get to at least their conference finals with their defense as the primary weapon. That's kind of proof of how dominant they were as a team defense.

I stand by Riley's early 90's Knicks as being the best defense I've ever seen. DRTG be damned, slow pace severely affects the statistical rank. Those teams had a level of toughness, and grit that only the Bad Boy Pistons, and KG Celtics had.

Riley schemed for teams near perfectly.

They were also INTIMIDATING. Bullies. Tenacious, hounding traps, great rotation, better individual defenders than even reams like Big Ben's Pistons had (outside of Prince) ... plus in addition to their great team defense they actually were brutally physically on opponents. Unlike the Bad Boy Pistons, the guys hitting players this time around were massive, and muscular.

The size in the front line was shocking, and intimidating:

Ewing
Smith
Oakley
Mason

Then at the perimeter they had lock down guys like Gerald Wilkins, or John Starks. Tony Allen caliber wing defenders, with the same old school form of toughness, and on ball technique. Hell, Greg Anthony could play really great defense.

[MichaelCorleone]

Heat 2013

[fpliii]

One other note, I do think that we have to view teams in context. That's why I prefer relative DRtg. From 02-04, teams had both the zone (which teams earlier didn't have) and hand-checking (which teams since then haven't had) at their disposals.

But I think a few teams are notable recently that deserve special praise/mention for being so influential in the development of today's defenses:

1) The Bad Boys shut down the drive, and keyed in on superstars.
2) The Bulls really mastered the pressing defense. The Celtics and Holzman Knicks did in the 60s but both they had super-mobile centers, which aren't around in the league today.
3) The Twin Tower Spurs. Enough said.
4) As aforementioned, the Pistons with Sheed/Ben really dominated, and those teams took advantage of the zone and hand-checking.
5) Thibs really brought defensive schemes to the forefront. Most if not all good defensive teams abide by his guidelines/philosophies on that end.

HM: Carisle for the hybrid zone they played against Miami. The Spurs tried something else recently with Leonard/Duncan, forcing LeBron/Wade to become jumpshooters while taking away the three and the drive.

EDIT: Also, the current Pacers get a mention for being the first team to take advantage of the new verticality guidelines, which I believe came into the league before 08-09.

[SamuraiSWISH]

One other note, I do think that we have to view teams in context. That's why I prefer relative DRtg. From 02-04, teams had both the zone (which teams earlier didn't have) and hand-checking (which teams since then haven't had) at their disposals.
It's on record that no one really started utilizing the zone until the mid 2000s. It was rarely used in the early 2000s.

It's one of the reasons Team USA struggled so bad in the early 2000s with zone. They weren't used to seeing it, and we had such a drop off in basic skill sets learned in college that take advantage of zone defenses.

The true potential of the zone wasn't realize until AFTER the 2008 season. League copy cats saw what Thibs was able to employ for that Celtics team with the soft, rotating zones, zoning up on slashers or superstars and that's when the zone defense really started being used effectively.

The great team defenses prior still found a way to zone up on certain guys without always getting called for illegal defenses.

[fpliii]

fpliii,

I want to see your ten best defensive list that you've ever seen. My requirement is that the team had to be able to get to at least their conference finals with their defense as the primary weapon. That's kind of proof of how dominant they were as a team defense.

I stand by Riley's early 90's Knicks as being the best defense I've ever seen. DRTG be damned, slow pace severely affects the statistical rank. Those teams had a level of toughness, and grit that only the Bad Boy Pistons, and KG Celtics had.

Riley schemed for teams near perfectly.

They were also INTIMIDATING. Bullies. Tenacious, hounding traps, great rotation, better individual defenders than even reams like Big Ben's Pistons had (outside of Prince) ... plus in addition to their great team defense they actually were brutally physically on opponents. Unlike the Bad Boy Pistons, the guys hitting players this time around were massive, and muscular.

The size in the front line was shocking, and intimidating:

Ewing
Smith
Oakley
Mason

Then at the perimeter they had lock down guys like Gerald Wilkins, or John Starks. Tony Allen caliber wing defenders, with the same old school form of toughness, and on ball technique. Hell, Greg Anthony could play really great defense.
Well, I started watching in the early 90s. My top 5 (if I go top 10, I'll probably accidentally conflate two separate seasons):

1) 99 Spurs - two top five defenders ever in their primes (Duncan in the beginning of his, Robinson at the end of his)
2) 93 Knicks - took what the Bad Boys did (especially baseline), and modified it to counter the triangle (pinching the corners)
3) 08 Celtics - the league wasn't ready for Thibs, who shut down Kobe in the Finals, and made life hell for LeBron in the second round
4) 96 Bulls - dat speed and tenacity, with Rodman and the Dobermans
5) 90 Pistons - made life hell for MJ and Scottie, took away the drive

I can't place the 04 Pistons because there's no way to know how much of it was a perfect storm of the rules.

[fpliii]

It's on record that no one really started utilizing the zone until the mid 2000s. It was rarely used in the early 2000s.

It's one of the reasons Team USA struggled so bad in the early 2000s with zone. They weren't used to seeing it, and we had such a drop off in basic skill sets learned in college that take advantage of zone defenses.

The true potential of the zone wasn't realize until AFTER the 2008 season. League copy cats saw what Thibs was able to employ for that Celtics team with the soft, rotating zones, zoning up on slashers or superstars and that's when the zone defense really started being used effectively.

The great team defenses prior still found a way to zone up on certain guys without always getting called for illegal defenses.
Actually, I think you're right. The Pistons didn't start playing much zone until Saunders got in there. Still, I remember some zones (with Sheed and Prince) mixed in at times.

BTW here's a good article on the Spurs and Pistons, which correctly predicted the 05 Finals matchup:


Defense wins conference championships

By Sean Deveney - SportingNews

At first blush, it might look like Pistons coach Larry Brown and Spurs coach Gregg Popovich are running much the same stuff on defense. They're both lifelong coaches, they have worked together -- including this summer when Popovich was an assistant to Brown on the U.S. Olympic team -- and both point to North Carolina guru Dean Smith as the inspiration for their teams' styles of play. No wonder the Pistons and the Spurs were the two most dominating defenses in the league last season, each team allowing just 84.3 points per game.

That should not change much this season. Expect the Spurs and Pistons, once again, to be Nos. 1 and 2 in defense -- and because they are the best defensive teams, we expect them to meet in June for the NBA championship.

Much of the Spurs' success comes from the consistency the team has developed under Popovich's direction, despite a roster that fluctuates from year to year. But the Spurs return the same starting lineup this year and should avoid the early-season slump they have fallen into in the past. Similarly, it took the Pistons a while last season to adjust to Brown's system, and the midseason addition of Rasheed Wallace forced another adjustment. After winning the NBA title and having a full training camp together, this year's Pistons should be well-versed in Brown's ways.

Though Brown and Popovich share defensive roots -- and though the results are almost identical -- their defensive schemes don't have much in common. Brown tries to push the offense into doing things it does not want to do by using ball pressure; Popovich tries to chew the 24-second clock by forcing the ball to the baseline. A close look at the assignments of the players on the floor shows that the defenses of these two close friends -- and probable NBA Finalists -- are quite different.

SPURS DEFENSE

Guards: Spurs guards Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker have a straightforward assignment -- do not allow penetration into the middle. Popovich has been known to yank a guard from the game immediately after the guard allows a player into the paint. Spurs guards are taught that, to keep an opponent from the middle, they should always shade a half-step in that direction. That encourages opponents to drive away from the middle.

Small forward: Bruce Bowen might be the best chaser in the league. He grabs, fights through screens and is not afraid to be physical. He is a perfect fit for the Spurs because one of the tenets of Popovich's defense is never to allow corner 3-pointers -- thanks to Bowen's tenacity, the Spurs rarely do. For most teams, it is the job of the defender in the corner to step toward the middle and interrupt penetration. But the Spurs are so ardent about preventing corner 3s that Bowen is assigned to remain in the corner, with the big men rotating to stop players driving to the basket.

Power forward, center: When the Spurs' defense is working, the power forward and center rack up blocked shots. The guards keep the ball out of the paint, forcing penetration to the baseline, where offensive players are trapped and vulnerable to having their shots blocked. Nesterovic averaged a career-high 2.0 blocks last season despite being slow-footed on help defense. Pick-and-rolls present a problem for the Spurs, though, because Ginobili and Parker are not strong enough to fight through screens and Tim Duncan and Nesterovic are not nimble enough to jump out to the ball and get back to their positions.


PISTONS DEFENSE

Guards: The goal of the Pistons' backcourt is to play as tight on the ball as possible, forcing the ballhandlers to pass -- this disrupts the offense, gets the ball to less sure-handed players and, ideally, causes turnovers. Because they play tight on the perimeter, the Pistons are suffocating on 3-pointers but tend to give up more penetration. Still, Chauncey Billups is 6-3 and strong at the point, and Richard Hamilton is 6-7 at shooting guard; both defend pick-and-rolls well.

Small forward: Tayshaun Prince is a good fit for Brown's system because he has a tremendous wingspan. When the guards pressure the ball and force quick passes, the Pistons try to read the passing lanes and get deflections -- Prince's long arms help with that. He can cheat into passing lanes but still has the length and agility to bounce back to his man and put a hand in his face. Prince is very difficult to shoot over, as Kobe Bryant will attest.

Power forward, center: The tight play of the Pistons' guards puts pressure on the team's big men, but Detroit is fortunate to have two of the best help defenders in the league roaming the paint -- Rasheed Wallace and Ben Wallace. Rasheed averaged 2.0 blocks after he joined the Pistons last season, and Ben averaged 3.0 for the year. Teams can penetrate against Hamilton and Billups, but then they must deal with the Wallaces. The Wallaces also are very good at defending pick-and-rolls because each is athletic enough to flash onto the ballhandler and recover to guard his man.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I can't place the 04 Pistons because there's no way to know how much of it was a perfect storm of the rules.
They're hard to place for me too, but I feel obligated to rank them high.

Larry Brown was no defensive guru. This wasn't a coach who came up with brilliant defensive schemes like Thibs, Pop, Riley, Daley or had super athlete all-time caliber defenders like Jordan / Pip or LeBron / Wade or D-Rob / Duncan anchoring their defense.

Billups, Hamilton, and Sheed? None of those guys were great man, or even good team defenders. I still think they were a great defense, with as you said a perfect storm of rules. Big Ben yanked down rebounds at a record rate, but he wasn't even a defender that say Dennis Rodman was in comparison.

I honestly think they're in a sense kind of overrated. In that 2004 Finals? Kobe played so selfish, and terribly. Ego clashes ripped that Laker team apart, and the Pistons were just the gas on the fire. Karl Malone's crippling injury. It all has to be factored in for me.

[fpliii]

They're hard to place for me too, but I feel obligated to rank them high.

Larry Brown was no defensive guru. This wasn't a coach who came up with brilliant defensive schemes like Thibs, Pop, Riley, Daley or had super athlete all-time caliber defenders like Jordan / Pip or LeBron / Wade or D-Rob / Duncan anchoring their defense.

Billups, Hamilton, and Sheed? None of those guys were great man, or even good team defenders. I still think they were a great defense, with as you said a perfect storm of rules. Big Ben yanked down rebounds at a record rate, but he wasn't even a defender that say Dennis Rodman was in comparison.

I honestly think they're in a sense kind of overrated. In that 2004 Finals? Kobe played so selfish, and terribly. Ego clashes ripped that Laker team apart, and the Pistons were just the gas on the fire. Karl Malone's crippling injury. It all has to be factored in for me.
:cheers:

[SamuraiSWISH]

:cheers:
Karl Malone not being healthy, and his ability to stretch the floor really hurt that Laker team. Besides all the agendas, and ego trips. Self imploded, kind of like the 2011 Heat to be honest. Not to discredit the 2004 Pistons, or 2011 Mavericks. Kind of true though.

[aj1987]

DRTG has so many variables.


Agreed, I re-ranked. Forgot Payton's Sonics defensive dominance.

The ten best defenses, I've ever seen, their reign, their peak and ranked:

r1) Riley Knicks '92 - '95, Peak 1993
2) KG's Celtics '08 - '12, Peak 2008
3) Big Ben's Pistons '03 - '06, Peak 2004
4) Twin Towers Spurs '98 - '03, Peak 2001
5) The Dynasty Bulls '90 - '98, Peak 1996

6) Bad Boy Pistons '87 - '91, Peak 1990
7) Zo and Riley's Heat '96 - '02, Peak 1997
8) LeBron's Heat '11- Present, Peak 2012
9) Hibbert's Pacers '12 - Present, Peak 2014
10) The Glove's Sonics '94 - '97, Peak 1996

This is literally the WORST defensive teams list ever. I know that you're a Jordan stan, but the '93 Knicks?! The '04 Pistons, '08 Celtics, the '03 and '05 Spurs, etc. were much better than them defensively. I know that you're trying to prop up the defenses to prop up MJ.

Also, the '12 Heat?! Dude's were GOAT level defensively when they were dedicated, but over all? They weren't GOAT level.

[SamuraiSWISH]

This is literally the WORST defensive teams list ever.
Really? LOL hop off my pipe.


I know that you're a Jordan stan, but the '93 Knicks?! The '04 Pistons, '08 Celtics, the '03 and '05 Spurs, etc. were much better than them defensively. I know that you're trying to prop up the defenses to prop up MJ.
Are you really acting like the '93 Knicks weren't a great defense? What is your case for those defenses being so dramatically superior?

Oh yea, this was my list. What I've seen. What I hold to be true. Don't like it, then get over it. Don't know if you missed that detail it being my opinion.

I'm not propping up an all-time great defense to prop Jordan up. Those Riley Knick teams make the case themselves.

[fpliii]

This is literally the WORST defensive teams list ever. I know that you're a Jordan stan, but the '93 Knicks?! The '04 Pistons, '08 Celtics, the '03 and '05 Spurs, etc. were much better than them defensively. I know that you're trying to prop up the defenses to prop up MJ.

Also, the '12 Heat?! Dude's were GOAT level defensively when they were dedicated, but over all? They weren't GOAT level.
Relative to league average, they're the 8th best defense in league history:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?pli=1&key=0At9OxyY2Zhw6dF80TGxJQXliY0RlcXlxSHJXdGhjV3c&type=view&gid=3&f=true&colid0=2&filterstr0=NBA&sortcolid=16&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=1339

[aj1987]

Really? LOL hop off my pipe.


Are you really acting like the '93 Knicks weren't a great defense? What is your case for those defenses being superior?

Oh yea, this was my list. What I've seen. What I hold to be true. Don't like it, then get over it. Don't know if you missed that detail it being my opinion.

I'm not propping up an all-time great defense to prop Jordan up. Those Riley Knick teams make the case themselves.
The '93 Knicks were an all great defensive team, but nowhere close to being THE GOAT defensive team. Can you actually make a case for them over the '03 and '05 Spurs and the '08 Celtics?


@fpiii, I'm not saying that they're a bad team, defensively. Just trying to prove that there are better teams than them.

[SamuraiSWISH]

The '93 Knicks were an all great defensive team, but nowhere close to being THE GOAT defensive team.
I have them ranked over the 2008 Celtics. That's it. What's the big deal? fpliii's list backs me up on it too. They're separation on that list isn't significant. The Riley Knicks, and Thib's Celtics are the best defenses I'VE ever seen. Why so salty about my viewing experience, and opinion?

[fpliii]

BTW since the league made verticality a point of emphasis in 08-09, it seems these are the guidelines the NBA has been running with:

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2014/01/23/making-the-call-verticality.nba/

[mr.big35]

I went to go see games 1 & 5 of their 1st round matchup against the Bucks in the playoffs that year. They were unreal. Just a ferocious defense. We were helpless :oldlol:

You drove to detroit to watch them kill the bucks. you are one great bucks fan. I missed the first couple games and seen them destroy the bucks on game 5

[MMM]

You drove to detroit to watch them kill the bucks. you are one great bucks fan. I missed the first couple games and seen them destroy the bucks on game 5

damn so the Bucks won 2 games out of a best of 5 vs. those Pistons or was the 7 game series already in place by then??

[fragokota]

It's Pistons anyway, Bad Boys or 04...

[mr.big35]

damn so the Bucks won 2 games out of a best of 5 vs. those Pistons or was the 7 game series already in place by then??

it ended in 5 games in best of 7 games

[Rake2204]

I went to go see games 1 & 5 of their 1st round matchup against the Bucks in the playoffs that year. They were unreal. Just a ferocious defense. We were helpless :oldlol:

I can comfortably tell you that their games were by far the most boring games i have watched.Most of the time,other teams were so helpless that they would give up.They would go after you like hungry cheetah.There was a lot of chatter back then about the Pistons being a boring team to watch. I'm a Pistons fan, so obviously I disagreed. However, there were a ton of nights where I'd watch and ask myself, "How could people find this boring?" If the Pistons were, in fact, able to impose their defensive stranglehold, it often led to a lot of transition opportunities featuring monster blocks & dunks. Game 1 of that Bucks series was a great example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYRBCl6x8cQ

[kobebeangoat]

I read somewhere that the 13 Pacers have the GOAT D

[Micku]

Yes, they rank pretty high up there. 08 Celtics defense has been the only defense recently that were in same ballpark when comes to 04 Pistons. The 04 Pistons defense was a little greater though.

Actually, people underrate the Spurs in 04. The Spurs, like the Pistons, kept teams to 84.3 ppg. They also had the best defensive rating of that season, but the Pistons got better after Sheed.

[gin17]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RETLszOmhBQ