Kareem - MJ, Battle of The Titan, who's the legitimate GOAT

[VIntageNOvel]

MJ has always been undisputed #1 goat in ISH
but lately i notice there are this undercover campaign to dethrone MJ from the goat position,
started with the MJ:untouchable video
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=326399

and some convincing post under the username: Swagga
read the rest of swagga post here
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=325984

i suspect this is one of the tonymontana new gimmick
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=302018

the move have been countered by MJstan,
even tha fakkit kobe hater- derrivate prop up kobe to diminish kareem :applause:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=326812

so, would this campaign successfully dethrone MJ from the goat position,

bran stans, durant stans, and fellow kobe fans,
let take a seat, grab a popcorn, and enjoy the battle


http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa280/cashforcards/HYREHYT_zpsa7b58685.png


Actually there are many reasons for kareem being goat (even with all the help jordan got from media/refs/revisionist stans).
I'll chime in with a comparative analysis:

1. peak stats and playing style.

comparable, just that kareem is also a DPOY-level center and bigmen have much more impact, somebody mentioned speed being very important in the 90s+ game but in the playoffs you always have grind halfcourt basketball, bigman >> wing. Moreover, kareem was ultra mobile so if you want to consider the new rules you are actually giving kareem an advantage. Mobile big >>>>> mobile guard. Btw mobility is NOT hops for all the young monkeyballers reading this.

Also kareem got the skyhook which compares favorably with the fadeaway when you NEED to score. Also, kareem was not as ball dominant as jordan and could easily throw great outlet passes (shotime!) which means you can easily play him with more configurations, which means an advantage as a coach and winning with more teams and systems.
Jordan won in a single system with a very specific team, that's why when he aged he played like shit (chucking like mad) and was of no use on a contending team.

conclusion: kareem by a decent margin.

2. teammates.

Like lebron stans, jordan stans diss the team, jordan stans just taking it further.. dissing Scottie, Grant and especially the worm. jordan had ultra stacked teams but everybody don't talk bout them. You think bron has a stack team, look at those chicago rosters, they stack as hell and they were all in their prime (except parish).
Also GOAT player-manager coach PJ is not getting enough credit for keeping all the team in check, cuz sure as shit jordan not doing that (parish, worm, etc, well documented inccidents and dislikings)

important Stackness is always compared to the other teams in the league. If you bring oj mayo to the playground your team would be stack as hell even if oj is a
scrubby player in the nba. The jordan bulls were more stacked compared to their competition then the lebron heat(okc,spurs,indy, mavs, old boston) or kareem's lakers
(celtics,pistons, rockets, philly)

Thus even if kareem had great teammates, jordan had the better teams compared to the competition. Moreover, kareem had to share accomplishments with his teammates while the media made sure jordan got em all (The worm shoulda had at least a FMVP).

conclusion: jordan's team is very underrated, kareem is a better teammate and team anchor, jordan should not have 6 fvmps (worm/scottie arguably better series in last 2 finals)


3. longevity and playing style

plain and simple kareem's unmatched durability is underrated.
Kareem won in almost 3 different decades (71! -> 88) and went deep in the playoffs more times than jordan. Having the skills to play in different configurations made it easier to assemble teams around him.
Plus he won at every level, goat college player, etc.

Jordan: the first seasons a chucker extraordinaire, makes kobe look like magic johnson. in washington :lol. Jordan in the last finals series were he shot poorly & rodman rebounded like nuts but he was awarded fvmp by the media.. the man simply could not adapt to not shooting first, a true GOAT player would do anything needed for the win, including changing his game as he gets older.

conclusion: kareem, obviously.

4. refereeing
If you think durant or flopden be gettin calls you better look at some tape because them refs was blowin jordan harder then lecrab filipino fanboys on ish tbh.
take it from wilt: "If Michael was here right now, I would say to him: When you are so great that the league tries to change the rules in an attempt to stop you then you can claim you are the best ever. Every rule change I have seen during your career has been meant to enhance your game (such as shortened 3 point line, hand checking rules & well defined rules regarding illegal defenses)."
take it from magic from an interview: "You can't breathe to close to jordan or it's a foul"

There are numerous sites and videos that show why jordan was pampered and was more a product than a player. If you can't see this gtfo. The late 90s basketball and early 00s basketball was plagued with the products of the jordan rules and nearly destroyed NBA as a product (the corrupt refereeing scandal, the kings 2002 series, the encouragement of no fundamentals dunkers, etc)

conclusion: kareem played (physical) basketball, jordan was babied with rule changes. obvious, even the players joked about it ffs.


5. competition

which HOF in-his-prime wing/guard did MJ go against besides drexler? Magics corpse which abused him so badly in the finals that they had to put scottie on him? kevin johnson :lol ? payton ? starks :facepalm ? joe D no O? No true HOF alpha wing player to give him trouble. No kobes, no durants.
Of course we can go and detail the poor state of wing players during jordan's time but if the common monkeyballer fan don't know about sidney moncrief outplaying him even on one good leg there's little point going there.
kareem got: wilt, bill walton, parish, mchale, hakeem, moses malone, laimbeer etc That's first ballot HOF... not to mention the physcal defenders of the 80s... from which jordan of course protected.
Even lebron got KD, kobe, 2 unquestionable 1st ballot hof rivals.

6. image as a human being
MJ utter trash as a human being tbh. A true nigging chimp. (gambling, dubious father death, clashing with teammates, screwinng washington by playing and by drafting, incompetent manager, the actually forced retirement, clothing :lol :lol :lol etc etc)
Kareem may be an aloof egomaniac but he is wellspoken and behaves like a civilized human being, giving a good image to this sport.



Arguments can go on tbh but you get a majority of young chumps and old jordan stans who be like : "air jordan doe he change hands in air :bowdown: ", "his dunks enhance the swag on his shoes", "when jordan quit I could not watch basketball anymore":facepalm and the permanent brainwashing media hell bent to sell this shit as much as possible. The league went straight to shit after the 80s tbh and this jordan organized dickriding/refing was the primary reason.

These are facts tbh but them stans will avoid this shit like the plague and come with the most contrieved examples and hand-picked stats to slurp jordan's dick.

Hate on this sukas.

btw kareem, magic > jordan.

[MichaelCorleone]

Kareem not even top 5.

Closer contest would be MJ vs Magic vs Bird vs Russell.

[SamuraiSWISH]

MVP shares? Jordan
Finals MVPs? Jordan

Kareem has longevity because MJ willingly retired 2x, for a total of 5 seasons. 2 of them in his prime. Got robbed out of 4x MVPs too. With 2x potential ones left on table. Kareem was supplemental help on the vast majority of his championships.

[MichaelCorleone]

MVP shares? Jordan
Finals MVPs? Jordan
Championships? Jordan

Kareem has longevity because MJ willingly retired 2x, for a total of 5 seasons. 2 of them in his prime. Got robbed out of 4x MVPs too. With 2x potential ones left on table. Kareem was supplemental help on the vast majority of his championships.
This.

"Kareem was supplemental help on the vast majority of his championships." is putting it in a nice way, it actually means Kareem is a beta sidekick who rode Magic to rings.

[dannysc305]

I know KAJ resume is loaded but MJs impact on the game is an intangible factor that puts him over the top. There is no argument against Mike man.

[MichaelCorleone]

Kareem doesn't even deserve having this thread made.:facepalm

Closest contest would be Magic and Bird and Russell.

[VIntageNOvel]

this is kinda like "efficient vs dominant" thing that was created by 9erempire not long ago but in much bigger scale

if this campaign success, :bowdown: to whoever set it

[gts]

MVP shares? Jordan
Finals MVPs? Jordan

Kareem has longevity because MJ willingly retired 2x, for a total of 5 seasons. 2 of them in his prime. Got robbed out of 4x MVPs too. With 2x potential ones left on table. Kareem was supplemental help on the vast majority of his championships.

That's an MJ problem not a Kareem problem.. you're attaching MJ's negatives to Kareem's positives in a weak attempt to delude the discussion

Not Kareem's fault MJ couldn't cut it

[SamuraiSWISH]

I know KAJ resume is loaded but MJs impact on the game is an intangible factor that puts him over the top. There is no argument against Mike man.
Seriously. He got an arena built for him, and had an immortalized statue while he was still playing the game. Meanwhile Kareem was retired for decades, and had to spitefully guilt trip the Lakers into giving him a statue.

:oldlol:

[MichaelCorleone]

KAJ is top 8 at best while MJ is GOAT. Why is this a legitimate debate?:confusedshrug:

[MichaelCorleone]

Seriously. He got an arena built for him, and had an immortalized statue while he was still playing the game. Meanwhile Kareem was retired for decades, and had to spitefully guilt trip the Lakers into giving him a statue.

:oldlol:
:applause:

[SamuraiSWISH]

That's an MJ problem not a Kareem problem
I'm using it as context to show that MJ's potential for probable (not plausible) accumulative stats, potential for MVPs, more scoring titles, championships were left on that table because he left in his prime. His already absurd resume could've been even better. It ads an element of mystique, a "what if" factor.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Jordan mythologists still wanting extra credit for him quitting on his team twice. :facepalm

[SamuraiSWISH]

Cholo Laker Groupies hanging their hat on Kareem's accomplishments v.s. children, and amateurs. Oh, and rings where he piggy backed Magic Johnson, and James Worthy.

[MichaelCorleone]

Cholo Laker Groupies hanging their hat on Kareem's accomplishments v.s. children, and amateurs. Oh, and rings where he piggy backed Magic Johnson, and James Worthy.
2 fmvps to show for 6 rings.:roll: :facepalm

Jordan 6 FMVPs for 6 rings for 6 finals appearances. End of discussion.

[SamuraiSWISH]

2 fmvps to show for 6 rings.
No wonder Kobe apostles prop up Kareem cause the fake MJ fell short. 2 Finals MVPs to 6 rings? That's a very Kobe-esque caliber ratio of best player = championship formula.

[VIntageNOvel]

longevity is important, if not then you can argue shaq is the goat

off the court, MJ is goat of course, his impact to basketball around the world can only be rivaled by magic-bird,
kareem had a disadvantages with lack of media coverage (just like wilt) and unflashy (yet effective) move, and theres this religion thing

i myself is neutral as i see both interchangeable at #1&#2 depend on how you value some thing

continue :cheers:

[MichaelCorleone]

No wonder Kobe apostles prop up Kareem cause the fake MJ fell short. 2 Finals MVPs to 6 rings? That's a very Kobe-esque caliber ratio of best player = championship formula.
I'm going to repeat this again:

6 FMVPs for 6 rings FROM 6 finals appearances. End of discussion.

[fpliii]

Why are we comparing bigs to wings. :facepalm

[c5terror]

Wow, What's with a Kareem Uprising lately LOL.


If you put "*" at James post Cavs Feat and 3peat Kobe. You should've done the same to Kareem, in fact the level of quitting of Kareem is equal to the level of LBJ quitting Cavs except that Kareem won a chip before leaving Bucks. But still Oscar>Wade,Bosh.. Magic >>100^100x>> Bosh+Wade....So Kareem "*" should be times 2 than lebron if not equal.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I'm sure Jordan mythologists think it was more impressive for Jordan to win gold on the Dream Team (since he was the best player) than 2001 Kobe to win his 3rd ring.

Why is best player on the team the criteria and not how much support did the player have?

[SamuraiSWISH]

than 2001 Kobe to win his 3rd ring.
Kobe won his 3rd ring in 2002. Kobe apostles aren't even knowledgeable.

Nothing is as impressive in regards to Kobe compared to Jordan, because he aped Mike so hard ... trying desperately so hard to be him everything pales in comparison. We've seen it before.

Kobe's amazing 2001 championship run as facilitator? MJ did it better in 1991.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Kobe won his 3rd ring in 2002. Kobe apostles aren't even knowledgeable.

Is that a deflection?

Explain the logic why best player on the team is the valid criteria and not how much support did this player have?

[MichaelCorleone]

6 FMVPs for 6 rings from 6 finals appearances. All as the man, the no.1 option, the alpha.


Not even a close debate. End of discussion.

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://dimemag.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Wilt-Chamberlain.png

[c5terror]

I'm sure Jordan mythologists think it was more impressive for Jordan to win gold on the Dream Team (since he was the best player) than 2001 Kobe to win his 3rd ring.

Why is best player on the team the criteria and not how much support did the player have?

If Lakers has only Prime peak SHaq as the only player on the roster and 1st peat Bulls has the same minus only Pippen and Jordan. If Lakers vs Bulls happen. Lakers won
4-0.. Prime Shaq>>Pippen+Bulls Roster.

[1987_Lakers]

I have no problem with people listing Kareem as the GOAT.

He spent the majority of his peak on a team that didn't have much talent, it was also a time when the NBA was at its worst in terms of popularity. Also, the fact that he wasn't charismatic and was not liked by the media is also a reason why most don't consider him the GOAT.

As a flat out player, you cannot deny that he was as good as any player the league has seen, the guy averaged 35 ppg, 18 rpg, 3.5 bpg, on 60% shooting during the '77 postseason. He also has the longevity, the guy won Finals MVP at age 38, made the All-NBA First Team the very next year.

Winning 6 NBA MVPs should tell you just how dominant he was.

[VIntageNOvel]

6 FMVPs for 6 rings from 6 finals appearances. All as the man, the no.1 option, the alpha.


Not even a close debate. End of discussion.


but kareem went to 10 finals?

are you saying 6 gold and 4 silver is worse than 6 gold and no silver?

[SamuraiSWISH]

http://dimemag.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Wilt-Chamberlain.png
This steroid abusing, habitually lying loser apparently has a case for GOAT too.

[MichaelCorleone]

but kareem went to 10 finals?

are you saying 6 gold and 4 silver is worse than 6 gold and no silver?
Yes.

Btw, losing in the finals is not a silver, it's not even bronze. It's a disgrace.

[Deuce Bigalow]

"In terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt"
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

[VIntageNOvel]

Yes.

Btw, losing in the finals is not a silver, it's not even bronze. It's a disgrace.


so bran is 2 time champion, and 2 time disgrace?

[MichaelCorleone]

"In terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt"
-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Kareem Abdul-Beta is bitter of MJ.

[Keno]

for now jordan. in 2018 when lebron has 8 mvps, 7 rings, 7 finals mvp, he will be the greatest of all time.

[Lamar Odumbb]

I would always take the big man, including Shaq over Jordan and Kobe and Kareem over Jordan and Kobe. I think Lebron is the only non big man I might pick ahead of Kareem or Shaq but it would be 50/50.


Take Jordan away from Bulls and they go from like 60 wins to 55 wins.

Take Shaq away from Lakers and they go from 60 wins to 40 wins.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

If Lakers has only Prime peak SHaq as the only player on the roster and 1st peat Bulls has the same minus only Pippen and Jordan. If Lakers vs Bulls happen. Lakers won
4-0.. Prime Shaq>>Pippen+Bulls Roster.

If that was true then this question should be with is the 2nd best player of all time since Shaq would clearly be the greatest.

[MichaelCorleone]

so bran is 2 time champion, and 2 time disgrace?
Yes. At least Lebron won his rings as the man, Kareem rode other stars (1 rookie) to his rings.

[fpliii]

IMO he's not better than MJ but Kareem in his three Finals during his prime:

71 Finals - 27.0/18.5/2.8 (blocks weren't officially recorded) on .605 shooting
74 Finals - 32.6/12.1/5.4 with 2.1 blocks on .524 shooting
80 Finals - 33.4/13.6/3.2 with 4.6 blocks on .549 shooting

Beta? :biggums:

[MichaelCorleone]

Beta? :biggums:
Beta.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Pretty sure McGrady, Iverson, Ray Allen, Vince Carter, Reggie Miller all could've at some point won at least a couple of rings with a motivated, PJ coached Shaquille O'Neal from 2000 - 2004. Possibly not 3 in a row, but at least a couple.

[1987_Lakers]

Beta.

This guy is obviously trolling, stop feeding him.

[fpliii]

Beta.
Homie c'mon. You can say he was carried in 82 and 87, and definitely 88, but the three Finals I mentioned before were unquestionably beast. Of his other Finals, he was done in 89, wasn't great in 84, and was outplayed in 83, but his prime ended in 81.

Dude, name me a player with three better Finals lines than those.

[MichaelCorleone]

Homie c'mon. You can say he was carried in 82 and 87, and definitely 88, but the three Finals I mentioned before were unquestionably beast. Of his other Finals, he was done in 89, wasn't great in 84, and was outplayed in 83, but his prime ended in 81.

Dude, name me a player with three better Finals lines than those.
2 FMVPs out of 6 rings. Don't care what stats he put up.

[moe94]

Homie c'mon. You can say he was carried in 82 and 87, and definitely 88, but the three Finals I mentioned before were unquestionably beast. Of his other Finals, he was done in 89, wasn't great in 84, and was outplayed in 83, but his prime ended in 81.

Dude, name me a player with three better Finals lines than those.

You might as well be posting to yourself.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Pretty sure McGrady, Iverson, Ray Allen, Vince Carter, Reggie Miller all could've at some point won at least a couple of rings with a motivated, PJ coached Shaquille O'Neal from 2000 - 2004. Possibly not 3 in a row, but at least a couple.

Pretty sure none of those guys play any defense. Nor does it take anything away from Kobe to say he could have been replaced with another HOF guard. :confusedshrug:

[Deuce Bigalow]

IMO he's not better than MJ but Kareem in his three Finals during his prime:

71 Finals - 27.0/18.5/2.8 (blocks weren't officially recorded) on .605 shooting
74 Finals - 32.6/12.1/5.4 with 2.1 blocks on .524 shooting
80 Finals - 33.4/13.6/3.2 with 4.6 blocks on .549 shooting

Beta? :biggums:
Also his FMVP at age 38

85 Finals - 25.7/9.0/5.2 with 1.5 blocks on .604 shooting

[c5terror]

If that was true then this question should be with is the 2nd best player of all time since Shaq would clearly be the greatest.

Prime Shaq=Prime JordAN interms of dominance
Longevity - Jordan
Achievement - Jordan
Stat - wash(Shaq Rebound+BLock , MJ scoring, FT,Steal,3's,Assist)

Prime Shaq Dominance >>>all nba player in history except MJ.

[The Iron Fist]

Yes.

Btw, losing in the finals is not a silver, it's not even bronze. It's a disgrace.
Not getting to the finals is even worse.

I'll take 6-4 over 6-0 any day.

[fpliii]

2 FMVPs out of 6 rings. Don't care what stats he put up.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=301909

[MichaelCorleone]

Not getting to the finals is even worse.

I'll take 6-4 over 6-0 any day.
Bunch of betas LA fans willing to take finals losses.:oldlol: :facepalm

Let's all remember, JORDAN HAS NOT LOST A FINALS IN HIS LIFE. 6 FOR 6. End of dicussion.

[KyleKong]

Jordan retiring twice should be considered a negative in terms of his GOAT status.

With that said, still Jordan.

Kareem inches away in #2 locked spot.

[The Iron Fist]

Bunch of betas LA fans willing to take a finals lost.:oldlol: :facepalm

Let's all remember, JORDAN HAS NOT LOST A FINALS IN HIS LIFE. 6 FOR 6. End of dicussion.

Go the the finals 6 times in 15 years instead of 10 in 20 and claim greatness. :facepalm

[KyleKong]

Bunch of betas LA fans willing to take finals losses.:oldlol: :facepalm

Let's all remember, JORDAN HAS NOT LOST A FINALS IN HIS LIFE. 6 FOR 6. End of dicussion.

So, lets look at other sports for example.

Dan Morino should be throw out of the debate for GOAT QB in the NFL because of his no superbowl wins?

[MichaelCorleone]

Go the the finals 6 times in 15 years instead of 10 in 20 and claim greatness. :facepalm
Enough. Save it.

Consensus GOAT is MJ. No 2-ways about it. Face it, deal with it.

[The Iron Fist]

Enough. Save it.

Consensus GOAT is MJ. No 2-ways about it. Face it, deal with it.

There is only one way.

6 NBA titles
3 NCAA titles
3 HS titles

all better than

6 NBA titles
1 NCAA title
couldn't even make the team and sent home crying.

[MichaelCorleone]

There is only one way.

6 NBA titles
3 NCAA titles
3 HS titles

all better than

6 NBA titles
1 NCAA title
couldn't even make the team and sent home crying.
Rode Magic and Worthy, claims greatness.:oldlol: :facepalm

[Lamar Odumbb]

Bunch of betas LA fans willing to take finals losses.:oldlol: :facepalm

Let's all remember, JORDAN HAS NOT LOST A FINALS IN HIS LIFE. 6 FOR 6. End of dicussion.

Jordan won 1 playoff game before Pippen.

Even Kobe won 3 playoff games without Shaq and Gasol.

[MichaelCorleone]

Jordan won 1 playoff game before Pippen.

Even Kobe won 3 playoff games without Shaq and Gasol.
But with Pippen he won FMVPs nonetheless didn't he? He didn't let somebody else take over his team did he? Let alone a ROOKIE PG playing his position.

6 FMVPs 6 Rings from 6 finals appearances. GOAT.

[fpliii]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Jesus ****ing Christ, I don't hate either player but it pisses me off so ****ing much that ****ing LeBron and Kobe stans (only the worst mind you, fans of the players and the teams who aren't obsessive aren't the problem) post the same inane shit day after day after day after day to attempt to tear down every great player ahead of their respective crush. Go **** yourselves you ****ing ******s, you go too ****ing far with your immature delusions.

I don't know why we normal posters without agendas/obsessions even bother to post here. Perhaps I'm done with this site (no disrespect to the quality posters here, peace out if this is indeed the case).

[SamuraiSWISH]

Pippen wasn't Pippen until 1990.

Jordan went to the ECF in '89, and was the only one to give the Bad Boy Pistons a loss that season. Magic, with a superior supporting cast couldn't even do that ... Look at this right here:

Jordan
32.5 ppg 8 apg 8 rpg 3 spg

Next Best Player:
14 ppg 4 apg 6 rpg

[MichaelCorleone]

Pippen wasn't Pippen until 1990.

Jordan went to the ECF in '89, and was the only one to give the Bad Boy Pistons a loss that season. Magic, with a superior supporting cast couldn't even do that ... Look at this right here:

Jordan
32.5 ppg 8 apg 8 rpg 3 spg

Next Best Player:
14 ppg 4 apg 6 rpg
Didn't MJ avg 45pt in his early series?

Call me when KAJ does that.:oldlol:

[Lamar Odumbb]

But with Pippen he won FMVPs nonetheless didn't he? He didn't let somebody else take over his team did he? Let alone a ROOKIE PG playing his position.

6 FMVPs 6 Rings from 6 finals appearances. GOAT.

So if Kobe won 6 titles with 6 MVP with Pau, is he better than Kareem.

[MichaelCorleone]

So if Kobe won 6 titles with 6 MVP with Pau, is he better than Kareem.
If Kobe finished his career with 6 rings 2 FMVPs he's better than Kareem.

Heck, accolades aside, Kobe Bryant is a better player than KAJ in almost every aspects of the game.

[SamuraiSWISH]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Jesus ****ing Christ, I don't hate either player but it pisses me off so ****ing much that ****ing LeBron and Kobe stans (only the worst mind you, fans of the players and the teams who aren't obsessive aren't the problem) post the same inane shit day after day after day after day to attempt to tear down every great player ahead of their respective crush. Go **** yourselves you ****ing ******s, you go too ****ing far with your immature delusions.

I don't know why we normal posters without agendas/obsessions even bother to post here. Perhaps I'm done with this site (no disrespect to the quality posters here, peace out if this is indeed the case).
It is the case. It's been headed down this road since 2011. Management of ISH simply doesn't care. Quality basketball talk has evaporated. The best posters are all gone, or rarely come to talk now. I engage in the trolling now too because it's all it is here. I'm thinking about taking another extended year long absence the way I did in 2012.

[Lamar Odumbb]

Pippen wasn't Pippen until 1990.

Jordan went to the ECF in '89, and was the only one to give the Bad Boy Pistons a loss that season. Magic, with a superior supporting cast couldn't even do that ... Look at this right here:

Jordan
32.5 ppg 8 apg 8 rpg 3 spg

Next Best Player:
14 ppg 4 apg 6 rpg

Genius Magic tore his hamstring in game 2 and Byron Scott also pulled his hamstring and never played 1 game in the series.

The Lakers were 12-0 in the playoffs prior to the Byron and Magic injury.

[The Iron Fist]

But with Pippen he won FMVPs nonetheless didn't he? He didn't let somebody else take over his team did he? Let alone a ROOKIE PG playing his position.

6 FMVPs 6 Rings from 6 finals appearances. GOAT.
"Bu but, championships are a team achievement"


:roll:

Kareem>>>Jordan.

[MichaelCorleone]

"Bu but, championships are a team achievement"


:roll:

Kareem>>>Jordan.
I'm done with this discussion. We drove fpliii away ffs.:( :cry:

[gts]

I'm done with this discussion. We drove fpliii away ffs.:( :cry:

meh don't sweat it.. after the admins get a load of your posting/trolling tonight you'll be gone too :lol

[Black and White]

meh don't sweat it.. after the admins get a load of your posting/trolling tonight you'll be gone too :lol

:roll: :roll: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[dannysc305]

I honestly discredit a lot of Kareem's accomplishments cause his era was maddddd weak. I'm not trying to hear about anything past the 80s. So Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Erving are out of a lot of my lists cause I tend to believe they come from an inferior unathletic predominantly white era. Like when I think of KAJ I think of a 7'2 behemoth posting up physically inferior competition. That's just me though. When you have seasons AVERAGING 14-16 REBs and 3-5 BLKs it just screams no competition, dominating bully who was never properly challenged or contested :shrugs:

Maybe I'm missing something though if Kareem really had staunch competition please enlighten me :shrugs:

That's a big reason why the dominant centers of the 90s who clashed against each other for a better part of a decade have my upmost respect :bowdown:

[JohnFreeman]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Jesus ****ing Christ, I don't hate either player but it pisses me off so ****ing much that ****ing LeBron and Kobe stans (only the worst mind you, fans of the players and the teams who aren't obsessive aren't the problem) post the same inane shit day after day after day after day to attempt to tear down every great player ahead of their respective crush. Go **** yourselves you ****ing ******s, you go too ****ing far with your immature delusions.

I don't know why we normal posters without agendas/obsessions even bother to post here. Perhaps I'm done with this site (no disrespect to the quality posters here, peace out if this is indeed the case).
shitttt

[MichaelCorleone]

shitttt
You missed the other thread, now deleted. I apologised though.

[fpliii]

RBA deleted that thread for me, thanks. Didn't mean to come off as an attention seeking *******, but I was a bit frustrated.

If you guys want to laugh at me for this though, feel free. :cheers: I deserve it.


:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Jesus ****ing Christ, I don't hate either player but it pisses me off so ****ing much that ****ing LeBron and Kobe stans (only the worst mind you, fans of the players and the teams who aren't obsessive aren't the problem) post the same inane shit day after day after day after day to attempt to tear down every great player ahead of their respective crush. Go **** yourselves you ****ing ******s, you go too ****ing far with your immature delusions.

I don't know why we normal posters without agendas/obsessions even bother to post here. Perhaps I'm done with this site (no disrespect to the quality posters here, peace out if this is indeed the case).

ISH for life (but seriously, cool it with the agenda threads a bit). :pimp:

[MichaelCorleone]

RBA deleted that thread for me, thanks. Didn't mean to come off as an attention seeking *******, but I was a bit frustrated.

If you guys want to laugh at me for this though, feel free. :cheers: I deserve it.



ISH for life (but seriously, cool it with the agenda threads a bit). :pimp:
Glad you're here.:cheers:

[SamuraiSWISH]

they come from an inferior unathletic predominantly white era.
If I said they come from an inferior intelligence, and skillful predominantly black era (like currently) ... People would lash out calling it racism.

Side note: See the hypocrisy? Oh, and even though I make fun of all races, including their stereotype, yet to those who it flies over their head calling me racist ... I actually agree with your statement, to an extent. But primarily on different grounds.

I think the eras pre Magic / Bird should be considered something else entirely given it was the building grounds for modern basketball. The great ones in that time period were architects, the game changed too much for it to compare to post 1980s basketball.

They are the basketball fore fathers. But not the standard bearers.

[Thunderfan86]

Glad you're here.:cheers:
You might as well suck his dick. :facepalm

Trolling like there's no tomorrow and then turn into a pu$$y when someone gets mad. SMH

[PsychoBe]

jordan averaged more points for his career,(30.1)
scored more in the playoffs,
was dpoy,
scored more points in a playoff game than any other player in history,
was mvp, scoring champion, and dpoy all in the same season,
has 5x the amount of scoring titles,
almost double all-nba defensive first teams,
has more than double the amount of fmvps,
never lost in the finals,
never went to a game 6 in the finals,
averaged more points in the finals than any other player (41ppg),

but this is a legit debate?

stop it. it's not even close.

michael jeffery jordan is the greatest basketball player to have ever played the game.

[dannysc305]

If I said they come from an inferior intelligence, and skillful predominantly black era (like currently) ... People would lash out calling it racism.

Side note: See the hypocrisy? Oh, and even though I make fun of all races, including their stereotype, yet to those who it flies over their head calling me racist ... I actually agree with your statement, to an extent. But primarily on different grounds.

I think the eras pre Magic / Bird should be considered something else entirely given it was the building grounds for modern basketball. The great ones in that time period were architects, the game changed too much for it to compare to post 1980s basketball.

They are the basketball fore fathers. But not the standard bearers.

Ok I have no idea what your trying to say that all went over my head but I was emphasizing the physically inferior moreso than the predominantly white, with "predominantly white" being the probable underlying cause of said inferior athleticism, to clear the air.

[SamuraiSWISH]

You might as well suck his dick. :facepalm

Trolling like there's no tomorrow and then turn into a pu$$y when someone gets mad. SMH
:roll: :roll: :roll:

Sounds like his hero LeBron when someone stands up to the bully. See Jason Terry, Shawn Marion in 2011 NBA Finals.

[MichaelCorleone]

You might as well suck his dick. :facepalm

Trolling like there's no tomorrow and then turn into a pu$$y when someone gets mad. SMH
http://www.inflexwetrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/IFWT-Kevin-Durant-cries.jpg

[Thunderfan86]

http://www.inflexwetrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/IFWT-Kevin-Durant-cries.jpg
Yeah, that's more like it. Put your big boy pants back on....Phagg0t

[SamuraiSWISH]

Ok I have no idea what your trying to say that all went over my head but I was emphasizing the physically inferior moreso than the predominantly white, with "predominantly white" being the probable underlying cause of said inferior athleticism, to clear the air.
In short I was saying you can't compare pre 1980 basketball stars to the modern ones post 1980. Because pre 1980 the game changed too much consistently. It was in it's developmental stages, as opposed to it's final product. The one that Bird / Magic brought into people's living rooms in the last ditch revival of a dying sport.

[dannysc305]

In short I was saying you can't compare pre 1980 basketball stars to the modern ones post 1980. Because pre 1980 the game changed too much consistently. It was in it's developmental stages, as opposed to it's final product. The one that Bird / Magic brought into people's living rooms in the last ditch revival of a dying sport.

"Game changing" is too vague of statement for me to grasp what are you specifically referring to because to me basketball was still basketball back then the athletes were just weaker :shrug: wasn't really till the mid 80s forward that the talent level really started picking up and hitting it's peak in the 90s

[SHAQisGOAT]

jordan averaged more points for his career,(30.1)
scored more in the playoffs,
was dpoy,
scored more points in a playoff game than any other player in history,
was mvp, scoring champion, and dpoy all in the same season,
has 5x the amount of scoring titles,
almost double all-nba defensive first teams,
has more than double the amount of fmvps,
never lost in the finals,
never went to a game 6 in the finals,
averaged more points in the finals than any other player (41ppg),

but this is a legit debate?

stop it. it's not even close.

michael jeffery jordan is the greatest basketball player to have ever played the game.

Mother****ers keep talking about dpoy :facepalm You know Kareem would've most likely had 2/3, had there been the award in the 1970's?

I got Jordan as #1 but yea this is a very legit debate.

[SHAQisGOAT]

In short I was saying you can't compare pre 1980 basketball stars to the modern ones post 1980. Because pre 1980 the game changed too much consistently. It was in it's developmental stages, as opposed to it's final product. The one that Bird / Magic brought into people's living rooms in the last ditch revival of a dying sport.

That's why 38 years old Kareem was still able to drop 40 on centers like Hakeem or Ewing. Stop it please.

[andgar923]

MJ could consistently (shit nightly) stop the perimeter player then rotate to either block or disrupt the big man's shot, then make the defense pay on either the wing or the post.

Again, he did this on a damn near nightly basis.

MJ impacted the game on both ends on both areas (perimeter/paint) unlike any other player, that's mutafuKIN impact.

We've seen the plays, he's gone from making a big shot to making the big defensive play in a blink of an eye countless times, also when it mattered the most and vice versa.

MJ affected the game in more ways than Kareem or any other player has. Then there's that legendary 'will' that everybody always talks about. People that were around Kareem, played with Kareem, against him, (or any other player in history for that matter) almost always say that MJ's will was undeniable.

Sometimes his will was the deciding factor in games which is why he's 6 for 6. At times 'will' isn't about his own stats but how he impacts his teammates as well.

[Y2ktors]

but kareem went to 10 finals?

are you saying 6 gold and 4 silver is worse than 6 gold and no silver?

This isn't the damn Olympics.You either win the championship or you lose it. There's no award for not winning the Finals.

[Psileas]

This isn't the damn Olympics.You either win the championship or you lose it. There's no award for not winning the Finals.

They are now handling some trophy to the conference champions as well, teams raise banners for being conference champions and the runner-ups' names are still mentioned in every list involving the NBA Finals.
Silver medal or not, Finals runner-up > not making the Finals.

[fpliii]

They are now handling some trophy to the conference champions as well, teams raise banners for being conference champions and the runner-ups' names are still mentioned in every list involving the NBA Finals.
Silver medal or not, Finals runner-up > not making the Finals.
BTW did you get my PM?

[Y2ktors]

They are now handling some trophy to the conference champions as well, teams raise banners for being conference champions and the runner-ups' names are still mentioned in every list involving the NBA Finals.
Silver medal or not, Finals runner-up > not making the Finals.
You get a conference championship trophy for WINNING YOUR CONFERENCE, not for losing in the Finals. There's no award for losing in the Finals. only excuse makers and losers glorify Finals losses.

[Psileas]

You get a conference championship trophy for WINNING YOUR CONFERENCE, not for losing in the Finals. There's no award for losing in the Finals. only excuse makers and lasts glorify Finals losses.

Similarly, you win the silver medal for being better than everybody else except one, NOT for losing the race/game/gold.
Being the winner / runner-up is not about the medal or the award, regardless of sport. What if nobody earned any medal or award? Would this suddenly negate the value of everyone?

[riseagainst]

Yes.

Btw, losing in the finals is not a silver, it's not even bronze. It's a disgrace.

and one of your idols (starts with Le, ends with bron) got swept in the finals and quit on his team in another finals.

you are right, that guy is a disgrace.

:applause:

[AnaheimLakers24]

kareem is better and so is kobe.

[dankok8]

Ok let me weigh in on some arguments I've seen on the thread.

Jordan has an edge in Finals MVP's 6-2 but let's consider the circumstances. Kareem was robbed in 1980 and his 1974 performance (ending in a Game 7 loss) was as great as they come. So performance-wise Kareem has had 4 GOAT-level Finals compared to 5 for Jordan (minus '96).

Jordan's perfect record in the Finals is another dumb argument. We should penalize Kareem for making the Finals and reward Jordan for losing before? Also one cannot understate the dramatic gap in competition. Kareem lost to the '74 Celtics (with Allen out and Oscar not 100%), '83 Sixers (with several team injuries), '84 Celtics, and '89 Pistons.

Jordan had more impact? Now people are just crapping on themselves... A big man who could score 30 ppg, anchor the best defenses and a top 3 rebounder had lesser impact than a perimeter player?

The Jordan retired argument is a bit flawed... If Jordan played in 93-94 and 94-95 isn't it plausible that he would wear down sooner? People are forgetting that in 97-98 Jordan survived on sheer will. His tank was close to empty and that's part of the reason why he retired right after. If Jordan played continuously from 84-85 to 02-03 he would have higher career totals for sure but his averages like PPG and PER would be much lower. And he might have crashed due to injury/age anyways and not made it that far.

[VIntageNOvel]

Ok let me weigh in on some arguments I've seen on the thread.

Jordan has an edge in Finals MVP's 6-2 but let's consider the circumstances. Kareem was robbed in 1980 and his 1974 performance (ending in a Game 7 loss) was as great as they come. So performance-wise Kareem has had 4 GOAT-level Finals compared to 5 for Jordan (minus '96).

Jordan's perfect record in the Finals is another dumb argument. We should penalize Kareem for making the Finals and reward Jordan for losing before? Also one cannot understate the dramatic gap in competition. Kareem lost to the '74 Celtics (with Allen out and Oscar not 100%), '83 Sixers (with several team injuries), '84 Celtics, and '89 Pistons.

Jordan had more impact? Now people are just crapping on themselves... A big man who could score 30 ppg, anchor the best defenses and a top 3 rebounder had lesser impact than a perimeter player?

The Jordan retired argument is a bit flawed... If Jordan played in 93-94 and 94-95 isn't it plausible that he would wear down sooner? People are forgetting that in 97-98 Jordan survived on sheer will. His tank was close to empty and that's part of the reason why he retired right after. If Jordan played continuously from 84-85 to 02-03 he would have higher career totals for sure but his averages like PPG and PER would be much lower. And he might have crashed due to injury/age anyways and not made it that far.


this is the exact ****ing reason why i created this thread :applause:

we need more of this level headed argument :applause:

please continue, havent seen anything close to this from MJ side

[Y2ktors]

Similarly, you win the silver medal for being better than everybody else except one, NOT for losing the race/game/gold.
Being the winner / runner-up is not about the medal or the award, regardless of sport. What if nobody earned any medal or award? Would this suddenly negate the value of everyone?
Again, this isn't the Olympics. Only the winner gets a championship reward in the 3 major North American sports. That's just how it is.

[Y2ktors]

Ok let me weigh in on some arguments I've seen on the thread.

Jordan has an edge in Finals MVP's 6-2 but let's consider the circumstances. Kareem was robbed in 1980 and his 1974 performance (ending in a Game 7 loss) was as great as they come. So performance-wise Kareem has had 4 GOAT-level Finals compared to 5 for Jordan (minus '96).

Jordan's perfect record in the Finals is another dumb argument. We should penalize Kareem for making the Finals and reward Jordan for losing before? Also one cannot understate the dramatic gap in competition. Kareem lost to the '74 Celtics (with Allen out and Oscar not 100%), '83 Sixers (with several team injuries), '84 Celtics, and '89 Pistons.

Jordan had more impact? Now people are just crapping on themselves... A big man who could score 30 ppg, anchor the best defenses and a top 3 rebounder had lesser impact than a perimeter player?

The Jordan retired argument is a bit flawed... If Jordan played in 93-94 and 94-95 isn't it plausible that he would wear down sooner? People are forgetting that in 97-98 Jordan survived on sheer will. His tank was close to empty and that's part of the reason why he retired right after. If Jordan played continuously from 84-85 to 02-03 he would have higher career totals for sure but his averages like PPG and PER would be much lower. And he might have crashed due to injury/age anyways and not made it that far.

He retired in 1999 because they broke the team up.

[nightprowler10]

I have no problem with people listing Kareem as the GOAT.
The three guys who can be listed as the GOAT and they won't get too much debate from me:

MJ
KAJ
Russell

Everyone else is in a tier below them in my book. I know it seems unfair to Wilt but I just can't put him in the same tier as those guys. For the record, my next tier, not in order:

Wilt
Magic
Bird

[Psileas]

Again, this isn't the Olympics. Only the winner gets a championship reward in the 3 major North American sports. That's just how it is.

I have nothing now to comment on this, because I've already done so. It's not about the award. Sorry, I just can't equate or care the same about the 2013 Spurs with the 2013 Bobcats or the 2012 playoffs of Durant to the 2012 playoffs of Melo just because their award sum is zero...

Here's a hypothesis, though, to show how silly this is: What if the new commissioner one year decides that the runner-up team will also be receiving some honorary, lesser award? I'm not saying this move will happen or that it would be necessarily correct. But, given this situation, would this suddenly raise the status of the runners-up?
Even if you don't want to consider this: Conference winners' awards hadn't always been existing. Did their presence add anything to the value of the achievement they represent?

[TheMan]

Seriously. He got an arena built for him, and had an immortalized statue while he was still playing the game. Meanwhile Kareem was retired for decades, and had to spitefully guilt trip the Lakers into giving him a statue.

:oldlol:
Lol, MJ also had his jersey retired by RIVAL TEAM. I don't see KAJ's jersey hanging up in Boston.


Heat retires first number
Posted: Friday April 11, 2003 8:49 PM
Save a link to this article and return to it at www.savethis.comSave a link to this article and return to it at www.savethis.com Email a link to this articleEmail a link to this article Printer-friendly version of this articlePrinter-friendly version of this article View a list of the most popular articles on our siteView a list of the most popular articles on our site

MIAMI (AP) -- The Miami Heat retired Michael Jordan's No. 23 jersey before his final game at the team's arena on Friday night.

The jersey -- half red for the Chicago Bulls and half blue for the Washington Wizards -- was hung from the rafters, and Miami coach Pat Riley said no Heat player will wear the number again.

"In honor of your greatness and for all you've done for the game of basketball -- and not just the NBA, but for all the fans around the world -- we want to honor you tonight and hang your jersey, No. 23, from the rafters," Riley said at midcourt. "No one will ever wear No. 23 for the Miami Heat. You're the best." Jordan then hugged Riley and waved to the crowd.

It was the first jersey the Heat have retired in their 15-year history.

Jordan averaged 30.2 points on 51.5 percent shooting in 37 regular-season games against the Heat during his career. He was even better in the playoffs, averaging 34.2 points in 11 games. Before the ceremony, the Heat also played a highlight video of Jordan on the big screen. It was complete with high-flying, tongue-hanging dunks, ankle-breaking moves, shoulder shrugs, fist pumps and his trademark smile.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/news/2003/04/11/heat_jordan_ap/

[The Iron Fist]

Again, this isn't the Olympics. Only the winner gets a championship reward in the 3 major North American sports. That's just how it is.
What's better? Making it to the 2nd round or conference finals, or making it to the finals?

[TheMan]

What's better? Making it to the 2nd round or conference finals, or making it to the finals?
Winning FMVPs :no: no piggybacking

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The three guys who can be listed as the GOAT and they won't get too much debate from me:

MJ
KAJ
Russell

Same here. Russell is the greatest winner, Jordan probably has the best all-around resume, and Kareem had an unreal peak. I wish those blocks and steals were recored during Russ' era. It’d be interesting to see his and Wilt's stats. Talking Russell and MJ is almost splitting hair because of how they both set records and completely dominated their respective eras.



Winning FMVPs :no: no piggybacking

Lets be real. Jordan, who is my personal GOAT, would be doing some "piggybacking" too had he played with Kareem.

[97 bulls]

Ok let me weigh in on some arguments I've seen on the thread.

Jordan has an edge in Finals MVP's 6-2 but let's consider the circumstances. Kareem was robbed in 1980 and his 1974 performance (ending in a Game 7 loss) was as great as they come. So performance-wise Kareem has had 4 GOAT-level Finals compared to 5 for Jordan (minus '96).

Jordan's perfect record in the Finals is another dumb argument. We should penalize Kareem for making the Finals and reward Jordan for losing before? Also one cannot understate the dramatic gap in competition. Kareem lost to the '74 Celtics (with Allen out and Oscar not 100%), '83 Sixers (with several team injuries), '84 Celtics, and '89 Pistons.

Jordan had more impact? Now people are just crapping on themselves... A big man who could score 30 ppg, anchor the best defenses and a top 3 rebounder had lesser impact than a perimeter player?

The Jordan retired argument is a bit flawed... If Jordan played in 93-94 and 94-95 isn't it plausible that he would wear down sooner? People are forgetting that in 97-98 Jordan survived on sheer will. His tank was close to empty and that's part of the reason why he retired right after. If Jordan played continuously from 84-85 to 02-03 he would have higher career totals for sure but his averages like PPG and PER would be much lower. And he might have crashed due to injury/age anyways and not made it that far.
Well who were Jordan led teams losing to? The Celtics and Pistons. And unlike Jordan, Jabaars been on teams that have lost to opponents they had no business losing to. 1986 Rockets for one.

What about all thise MVPs? Lets consider that alot of the MVP caliber players of the seventies, went to the ABA. How many MVPs would Jordan have if Barkley and Malone never played? Probably 7.

Past longevity, Jabaar has no legitimate case over Jordan for GOAT.

[CavaliersFTW]

Jordan mythologists still wanting extra credit for him quitting on his team twice. :facepalm
:oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Jesus ****ing Christ, I don't hate either player but it pisses me off so ****ing much that ****ing LeBron and Kobe stans (only the worst mind you, fans of the players and the teams who aren't obsessive aren't the problem) post the same inane shit day after day after day after day to attempt to tear down every great player ahead of their respective crush. Go **** yourselves you ****ing ******s, you go too ****ing far with your immature delusions.

I don't know why we normal posters without agendas/obsessions even bother to post here. Perhaps I'm done with this site (no disrespect to the quality posters here, peace out if this is indeed the case).

Stay :cry:

[ArbitraryWater]

Ok let me weigh in on some arguments I've seen on the thread.

Jordan has an edge in Finals MVP's 6-2 but let's consider the circumstances. Kareem was robbed in 1980 and his 1974 performance (ending in a Game 7 loss) was as great as they come. So performance-wise Kareem has had 4 GOAT-level Finals compared to 5 for Jordan (minus '96).

Jordan's perfect record in the Finals is another dumb argument. We should penalize Kareem for making the Finals and reward Jordan for losing before? Also one cannot understate the dramatic gap in competition. Kareem lost to the '74 Celtics (with Allen out and Oscar not 100%), '83 Sixers (with several team injuries), '84 Celtics, and '89 Pistons.

Jordan had more impact? Now people are just crapping on themselves... A big man who could score 30 ppg, anchor the best defenses and a top 3 rebounder had lesser impact than a perimeter player?

The Jordan retired argument is a bit flawed... If Jordan played in 93-94 and 94-95 isn't it plausible that he would wear down sooner? People are forgetting that in 97-98 Jordan survived on sheer will. His tank was close to empty and that's part of the reason why he retired right after. If Jordan played continuously from 84-85 to 02-03 he would have higher career totals for sure but his averages like PPG and PER would be much lower. And he might have crashed due to injury/age anyways and not made it that far.


Djoker :bowdown: Dropping knowledge

[dankok8]

He retired in 1999 because they broke the team up.

Sure but I'm just saying Jordan was already rapidly declining in 1998 and that's with taking time off for his first retirement. You think if MJ really wanted to play on the Bulls couldn't have stayed together? Regardless they didn't. I don't like to argue hypotheticals.


Well who were Jordan led teams losing to? The Celtics and Pistons. And unlike Jordan, Jabaars been on teams that have lost to opponents they had no business losing to. 1986 Rockets for one.

What about all thise MVPs? Lets consider that alot of the MVP caliber players of the seventies, went to the ABA. How many MVPs would Jordan have if Barkley and Malone never played? Probably 7.

Past longevity, Jabaar has no legitimate case over Jordan for GOAT.


When Jordan faced the Celtics and Pistons at their best he never won titles. Now his early teams weren't so talented as in the 90's but in 1990 playoffs Bulls were pretty damn good. And in his first 2 full seasons he led his average teams to 37 and 40 wins.

Kareem had plenty of competition for MVP like Bill Walton, Bob McAdoo and Moses Malone, 3 guys with insanely strong peaks. ABA had only one true superstar in Julius Erving. The NBA was a more defensive oriented league with better depth. Much stronger than the ABA overall and yet people still resort to this argument. The 1970's NBA was a league highly concentrated in talent too. Almost all contenders had 3+ all-stars.

How about accomplishments? 6 MVP's > 5 MVP's, more All-NBA selections and all-star games, better college resume.

[97 bulls]

Sure but I'm just saying Jordan was already rapidly declining in 1998 and that's with taking time off for his first retirement. You think if MJ really wanted to play on the Bulls couldn't have stayed together? Regardless they didn't. I don't like to argue hypotheticals.



When Jordan faced the Celtics and Pistons at their best he never won titles. Now his early teams weren't so talented as in the 90's but in 1990 playoffs Bulls were pretty damn good. And in his first 2 full seasons he led his average teams to 37 and 40 wins.

Kareem had plenty of competition for MVP like Bill Walton, Bob McAdoo and Moses Malone, 3 guys with insanely strong peaks. ABA had only one true superstar in Julius Erving. The NBA was a more defensive oriented league with better depth. Much stronger than the ABA overall and yet people still resort to this argument. The 1970's NBA was a league highly concentrated in talent too. Almost all contenders had 3+ all-stars.

How about accomplishments? 6 MVP's > 5 MVP's, more All-NBA selections and all-star games, better college resume.
The 90 team was very good. But they werent better than the Pistons. As I stated in another post in another thread Michael Jordan is the only player to never have lost to a team they were supposed to beat. They weren't supposed to beat the Pistons in 90.

Im not saying Jabaar didn't have competition for the MVP. But his best competition, was playing in the ABA. That being Julius Erving.

The 70s was not "highly concentrated with talent". The ABA literally took half of the NBAs great players. Do I need to name them?

Again, Jabaars resume is built on longevity. I'd still take Jordans career over Jabaars. And lets not forget the Olympics. Jordan has two Olympic Gold Medals to Jabaars zero. And while it is true Jabaar sat out in protest, thats no different than me saying Jordan would've finished with more MVPs, Championships, and PTS had he not retired in the middle of his prime and then early.

Lastly, I take exception to this notion that in order for the Bulls Championship runs to have had credibility, they had to beat, not Magics Lakers (cuz they did that convincingly) or Thomas's Pistons (see Magics Lakers), the 87 Lakers, the 86 Celtics, the 89 Pistons, or 83 Sixers. At full strength. Why? BECAUSE NONE OF THOSE TEAMS PLAYED EACH OTHER, THEY BEAT A VERSION OF THOSE SPECIFIC TEAMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What makes the 87 Lakers beating an injured Celtics team any more relevant? Or the.Sixers beating the Lakers in 83 without Worthy, or the 89 Pistons winning against a Laker team with No Magic or Scott and an old Jabaar? Hell the Celtics didn't even play a version of those teams in 86. And none of you Laker and Celtic fans ever answer that question. Why do you guys duck this?

I cornered Kuniva on this exact same thing after he made a similar comment and he stated that he'd rather not discuss it. Please. Can one of you give a rebutal?

[SHAQisGOAT]

Ok let me weigh in on some arguments I've seen on the thread.

Jordan has an edge in Finals MVP's 6-2 but let's consider the circumstances. Kareem was robbed in 1980 and his 1974 performance (ending in a Game 7 loss) was as great as they come. So performance-wise Kareem has had 4 GOAT-level Finals compared to 5 for Jordan (minus '96).

Jordan's perfect record in the Finals is another dumb argument. We should penalize Kareem for making the Finals and reward Jordan for losing before? Also one cannot understate the dramatic gap in competition. Kareem lost to the '74 Celtics (with Allen out and Oscar not 100%), '83 Sixers (with several team injuries), '84 Celtics, and '89 Pistons.

Jordan had more impact? Now people are just crapping on themselves... A big man who could score 30 ppg, anchor the best defenses and a top 3 rebounder had lesser impact than a perimeter player?

The Jordan retired argument is a bit flawed... If Jordan played in 93-94 and 94-95 isn't it plausible that he would wear down sooner? People are forgetting that in 97-98 Jordan survived on sheer will. His tank was close to empty and that's part of the reason why he retired right after. If Jordan played continuously from 84-85 to 02-03 he would have higher career totals for sure but his averages like PPG and PER would be much lower. And he might have crashed due to injury/age anyways and not made it that far.

:applause:

Don't forget: Kareem would've won a couple of dpoy's if the award was given in the 70's.

[dankok8]

The 90 team was very good. But they werent better than the Pistons. As I stated in another post in another thread Michael Jordan is the only player to never have lost to a team they were supposed to beat. They weren't supposed to beat the Pistons in 90.

Im not saying Jabaar didn't have competition for the MVP. But his best competition, was playing in the ABA. That being Julius Erving.

The 70s was not "highly concentrated with talent". The ABA literally took half of the NBAs great players. Do I need to name them?

Again, Jabaars resume is built on longevity. I'd still take Jordans career over Jabaars. And lets not forget the Olympics. Jordan has two Olympic Gold Medals to Jabaars zero. And while it is true Jabaar sat out in protest, thats no different than me saying Jordan would've finished with more MVPs, Championships, and PTS had he not retired in the middle of his prime and then early.

Lastly, I take exception to this notion that in order for the Bulls Championship runs to have had credibility, they had to beat, not Magics Lakers (cuz they did that convincingly) or Thomas's Pistons (see Magics Lakers), the 87 Lakers, the 86 Celtics, the 89 Pistons, or 83 Sixers. At full strength. Why? BECAUSE NONE OF THOSE TEAMS PLAYED EACH OTHER, THEY BEAT A VERSION OF THOSE SPECIFIC TEAMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What makes the 87 Lakers beating an injured Celtics team any more relevant? Or the.Sixers beating the Lakers in 83 without Worthy, or the 89 Pistons winning against a Laker team with No Magic or Scott and an old Jabaar? Hell the Celtics didn't even play a version of those teams in 86. And none of you Laker and Celtic fans ever answer that question. Why do you guys duck this?

I cornered Kuniva on this exact same thing after he made a similar comment and he stated that he'd rather not discuss it. Please. Can one of you give a rebutal?

Never lost to a team "they were supposed to beat". Seems like a rather arbitrary criteria. Who determines this? I'd rather rank careers on MVP's and other awards which are much more defined. There is accomplishments and then there is subjective opinions and hypotheticals. Jordan didn't achieve more than Kareem, he wasn't more dominant than Kareem. Why is he indisputably better?

The only ABA player that was a serious MVP candidate in the NBA is Dr. J. Moses doesn't count because he was very young in the ABA and just 21 at the time of the merger. Not a major factor before '78.

Thing is Jordan winning more MVP's and titles if he didn't retire is a stretch. Pure hypotheticals. Kareem if he took part in the Olympics would have won Gold... 99.99% sure of that since international teams in those days were a joke. Of course pros weren't even allowed to participate prior to 1992. It's like arguing DPOY which didn't exist in Kareem's prime. I've seen people do that. Kareem would have won 2-3 of those if they existed by the way.

Every team should only have to beat teams in front of them. I don't blame the Bulls for not beating say the '86 Celtics. However it's still indisputable that Jordan had much easier runs than many other stars in other eras.

[97 bulls]

Never lost to a team "they were supposed to beat". Seems like a rather arbitrary criteria. Who determines this? I'd rather rank careers on MVP's and other awards which are much more defined. There is accomplishments and then there is subjective opinions and hypotheticals. Jordan didn't achieve more than Kareem, he wasn't more dominant than Kareem. Why is he indisputably better?

The only ABA player that was a serious MVP candidate in the NBA is Dr. J. Moses doesn't count because he was very young in the ABA and just 21 at the time of the merger. Not a major factor before '78.

Thing is Jordan winning more MVP's and titles if he didn't retire is a stretch. Pure hypotheticals. Kareem if he took part in the Olympics would have won Gold... 99.99% sure of that since international teams in those days were a joke. Of course pros weren't even allowed to participate prior to 1992. It's like arguing DPOY which didn't exist in Kareem's prime. I've seen people do that. Kareem would have won 2-3 of those if they existed by the way.

Every team should only have to beat teams in front of them. I don't blame the Bulls for not beating say the '86 Celtics. However it's still indisputable that Jordan had much easier runs than many other stars in other eras.
First of all, this whole discussion is arbitrary. As to who GOAT is. The MVP is an arbitrary award. The only legit discussion should be the NBA Championship which is a REWARD for being the last team standing.

When I say that Jabaars teams have lost to teams they were supposed to beat im comparing their records. That's all. To argue that Jabaar wasn't on teams that lost to lesser teams is disengenuine. You just can't say that about Jordan.

As far as their College careers, obviously Jabaar was more accomplished. But let's not gloss over the fact that Jabaar (a New York native) flew all the way accross the country to Join a UCLA squad that had already won multiple straight championships without him. I wonder why. I see no reason not to believe that if had Jordan decided to do the exact same thing, hed have more championships as well. Similar to your argument against Jabaar not having Olympic Medals.

And again, Id submit to you Jordan was much more dominant. Unfortunately, we will never know how many championships Jordan would've won had he been like Jabaar and had over a decade playing on the best team in the league bar none.

[97 bulls]

Every team should only have to beat teams in front of them. I don't blame the Bulls for not beating say the '86 Celtics. However it's still indisputable that Jordan had much easier runs than many other stars in other eras.
I forgot to respond to this. I vehemently disagree. Let's take for instance the 91 Championship. The Bulls took down TWO DYNASTIES when they whipped the Showtime Lakers and Bad Boy Pistons. And mind you they kicked their ass. 4-0 and 4-1. How about 97? The Bulls beat the 45 win Bullets, the 56 win Hawks, the 61 win Heat and then the 64 win Jazz.

Im actually shocked that you would state such. As a Laker fan, did you forget that the Lakers played in one of the worst conferences the league has ever seen? They never saw any real competiton until they reached the Finals.

[fpliii]

Djoker :bowdown: Dropping knowledge
Ah that's him? Didn't make the connection. I've seen some great posts from him on hoops-nation that show up in Google searches. Great to have some good posters from that board here. :cheers:

[ArbitraryWater]

Ah that's him? Didn't make the connection. I've seen some great posts from him on hoops-nation that show up in Google searches. Great to have some good posters from that board here. :cheers:

Yep well I didn't know either until someone on HN told me. You on there too? HN is basically troll-free. I must admit most of the time for serious discussion and all, I go there. Here is of course funnier.

[fpliii]

Yep well I didn't know either until someone on HN told me. You on there too? HN is basically troll-free. I must admit most of the time for serious discussion and all, I go there. Here is of course funnier.
Nah, I've seen some posts though from Google searching for topics, but never registered. He has that Big Ben avatar I think.

You're a good poster on here too (don't know what your name was on that board though), glad you guys have made your way over.

[TheMan]

I forgot to respond to this. I vehemently disagree. Let's take for instance the 91 Championship. The Bulls took down TWO DYNASTIES when they whipped the Showtime Lakers and Bad Boy Pistons. And mind you they kicked their ass. 4-0 and 4-1. How about 97? The Bulls beat the 45 win Bullets, the 56 win Hawks, the 61 win Heat and then the 64 win Jazz.

Im actually shocked that you would state such. As a Laker fan, did you forget that the Lakers played in one of the worst conferences the league has ever seen? They never saw any real competiton until they reached the Finals.
:applause:

[ArbitraryWater]

Nah, I've seen some posts though from Google searching for topics, but never registered. He has that Big Ben avatar I think.

You're a good poster on here too (don't know what your name was on that board though), glad you guys have made your way over.

Yep that's him.


Thanks for the compliment coming from one of the smarter guys on here :bowdown:

Does fpliii stand for something?

[fpliii]

Yep that's him.


Thanks for the compliment coming from one of the smarter guys on here :bowdown:

Does fpliii stand for something?
Yeah, just my initials (f.p.l. III). Nothing too exciting.

[Y2ktors]

What's better? Making it to the 2nd round or conference finals, or making it to the finals?
None of them if you don't win. A loss is a loss, regardless of what round you lose in.

[ArbitraryWater]

None of them if you don't win. A loss is a loss, regardless of what round you lose in.

What the...

Loosing in the 1st Round=Loosing in the Finals?

[PsychoBe]

jordan averaged more points for his career,(30.1)
scored more in the playoffs,
was dpoy,
scored more points in a playoff game than any other player in history,
was mvp, scoring champion, and dpoy all in the same season,
has 5x the amount of scoring titles,
almost double all-nba defensive first teams,
has more than double the amount of fmvps,
never lost in the finals,
never went to a game 6 in the finals,
averaged more points in the finals than any other player (41ppg),

but this is a legit debate?

stop it. it's not even close.

michael jeffery jordan is the greatest basketball player to have ever played the game.

end the debate.

[Y2ktors]

What the...

Loosing in the 1st Round=Loosing in the Finals?
1 winner. 29 losers. That's how the system is set up. The goal is to win championships, Not just get there.

[fpliii]

1 winner. 29 losers. That's how the system is set up. The goal is to win championships, Not just get there.
That's not unreasonable, as long as one is consistent, I think.

(BTW I think you have enough posts to upload an avatar now.)

[Deuce Bigalow]

Their rings are not comparable at all. Similar to MJ and Kobe. Except Kareem was a third option his last two rings in '87 and '88. To be fair he was around 40 years old but just because they have the same amount of rings doesn't tell you everything. Not only was MJ the best player for all his championship teams, he was the best player in the league, something Kareem was for his first 2 rings. Rings are are a completely one-sided in favor of MJ, Finals MVPs is obviously in favor for MJ even if you give the '80 FMVP to Kareem, Regular season MVPs are a wash since Kareem only has one more and in one of his MVP seasons he team went 40-42. All-NBA First teams they are tied with 10, so no advantage for anyone. Jordan's the alltime leader in PPG for the regular season and playoffs which is more valauble than having the most career points imo since MJ didn't play 20 seasons like Kareem did, he only played 15 while skipping two seasons fresh off of winning a scoring title, MVP, FMVP, and a ring.

[dankok8]

First of all, this whole discussion is arbitrary. As to who GOAT is. The MVP is an arbitrary award. The only legit discussion should be the NBA Championship which is a REWARD for being the last team standing.

When I say that Jabaars teams have lost to teams they were supposed to beat im comparing their records. That's all. To argue that Jabaar wasn't on teams that lost to lesser teams is disengenuine. You just can't say that about Jordan.

As far as their College careers, obviously Jabaar was more accomplished. But let's not gloss over the fact that Jabaar (a New York native) flew all the way accross the country to Join a UCLA squad that had already won multiple straight championships without him. I wonder why. I see no reason not to believe that if had Jordan decided to do the exact same thing, hed have more championships as well. Similar to your argument against Jabaar not having Olympic Medals.



Opinions are subjective but some are more grounded in fact than others. An opinion based on MVP's is more relevant than that based in "winning series you're supposed to win".

There's much more figuring into team strength than just record. True Jordan never lost with home court but neither did Bill Russell. Also while Jordan never lost series he was supposed to win he also rarely won series he was supposed to lose. Kareem on the other hand beat a few great teams as an underdog (by your definition...), the '82 Sixers and '85 Celtics. And Kareem beat several teams with slightly inferior records while his squads were decimated by injuries. That counts for something too.


And again, Id submit to you Jordan was much more dominant. Unfortunately, we will never know how many championships Jordan would've won had he been like Jabaar and had over a decade playing on the best team in the league bar none.

More dominant how?

Jabbar got Magic at age 33 in his 11th season. You think 96-97 Jordan to 02-03 Jordan would win 5 or more titles as part of Showtime even assuming he never retired or succumbed to injury? That would be a fair way of looking at it.


I forgot to respond to this. I vehemently disagree. Let's take for instance the 91 Championship. The Bulls took down TWO DYNASTIES when they whipped the Showtime Lakers and Bad Boy Pistons. And mind you they kicked their ass. 4-0 and 4-1. How about 97? The Bulls beat the 45 win Bullets, the 56 win Hawks, the 61 win Heat and then the 64 win Jazz.

Im actually shocked that you would state such. As a Laker fan, did you forget that the Lakers played in one of the worst conferences the league has ever seen? They never saw any real competiton until they reached the Finals.

Funny you mention '91 Bulls. That was their easiest run. Isiah missed much of the season and was never the same. Pistons weren't even close to their championship level physically or mentally. In the Finals Worthy played injured and from Game 4 he and Scott DNP.

The Lakers competition in the West was no worse than the Bulls. Remember the early 80's Sonics, Rockets, and Spurs? Late 80's Rockets, Jazz, Blazers? Not exactly weak teams at all. In fact all except the Rockets had as much or more talent than any 90's team Jordan beat.

Expansion ruined in the league in the 90's. Teams were winning titles or at least seriously contending with 1 all-star and a bunch of role players. Look at Utah in '97 and '98, New York, San Antonio, Philly, and Houston in '94... Give me a team that Jordan faced that had a 2nd guy as good as Pippen or a 3rd guy as good as Grant or Rodman. I'll wait.

[dankok8]

I mostly post on H-N and that's my forum but occasionally I stumble about here to read the discussions. This place is active but too many trolls and spammers for my liking. I will always be a sporadic poster here.

[fpliii]

I mostly post on H-N and that's my forum but occasionally I stumble about here to read the discussions. This place is active but too many trolls and spammers for my liking. I will always be a sporadic poster here.
:cheers:

[sammichoffate]

http://myhero.com/images/guest/g37905/hero34149/g37905_u35953_james_naismith.jpg
/thread

[Odinn]

There has been no creativity at all for some serious amount of time. I can keep up with you guys, with just quoting myself.



There is no undisputed goat.



Like I always say. Compare Jordan's playoff numbers to Kareem's, and theirs your answer. When you look at Jordan's stats, just remind yourself, that a guard is putting up those %'s.

Not a knock on Kareem. If you wanna say 1a and 1b, i'd be completely fine with that.


Jordan played 12 full seasons for Bulls and in 1998 playoffs he was 34.
At the end of 1983 playoffs, Kareem was 36 and completed his 14th full season.

33.4/6.4/5.7/1.8 vs. 28.8/14.0/3.7/3.4

Much more closer than you think. Huh?

I rank both of MJ & Kareem as #1. More like your "1a-1b". But there is a reason for Jordan's career playoff #s looking better.


If 1985-86 season would be Kareem's last season;

His career numbers;
35108 points (all-time scoring leader until 2002-12-18)
16105 rebounds
5248 asissts
1025 steals
2915 blocks
2087 turnovers

26.4 ppg
12.1 rpg
4.0 apg
1.0 spg
2.9 bpg
3.0 tpg

0.562 fg%
0.720 ft%


His playoff numbers;
4912 points
2168 rebounds
676 asissts
161 steals
393 blocks
339 turnovers

27.3 ppg
12.0 rpg
3.8 apg
1.2 spg
2.8 bpg
3.0 tpg

0.541 fg%
0.732 ft%


His accomplishments;
6x MVP (6.203 total MVP share, only 2 times left out top5)
2x FMVP
4x NBA Champion (in 1971 and 1980, clear-cut best player on a championship team and "arguably" best player in 1982 and 1985)
16x All-Star
10x All-NBA First Team
5x All-NBA Second Team
5x All-NBA Defensive First Team
6x All-NBA Defensive Second Team
NBA Rookie of The Year
3x NCAA Champion
3x NCAA MOP
Naismith College Player of the Year

In conclusion; his last 3 years only lowered his career averages. He still would have a legitimate case for GOAT if he was retired after 1985-86 season.

I am not saying missing the playoffs or not getting deep in the playoffs is not fine. But while you're averaging 35/18/4/4/2 on 60% in the playoffs, 30/16/4/4 on 61% against an all-time great match-up and still you are not winning, it is not your fault.

The level of play Kareem has reached was good enough to be the goat. Jordan played a little bit longer than Kareem on goat level of play. But Kareem has the advantage on longevity for sure. He dominated the game at all levels.

---

I am not saying Jordan is not the goat. But the same goes with Kareem. Both of them have strong cases.

[sammichoffate]

There has been no creativity at all for some serious amount of time. I can keep up with you guys, with just quoting myself.:rockon:

[LAZERUSS]

A PEAK Kareem, from '70 thru '72, as well as a prime KAJ from '73-74, over ANY year from MJ.

After that, there would be seasons in which they would be close, and probably overall, MJ with a slight career edge.

[TheMan]

Opinions are subjective but some are more grounded in fact than others. An opinion based on MVP's is more relevant than that based in "winning series you're supposed to win".

There's much more figuring into team strength than just record. True Jordan never lost with home court but neither did Bill Russell. Also while Jordan never lost series he was supposed to win he also rarely won series he was supposed to lose. Kareem on the other hand beat a few great teams as an underdog (by your definition...), the '82 Sixers and '85 Celtics. And Kareem beat several teams with slightly inferior records while his squads were decimated by injuries. That counts for something too.



More dominant how?

Jabbar got Magic at age 33 in his 11th season. You think 96-97 Jordan to 02-03 Jordan would win 5 or more titles as part of Showtime even assuming he never retired or succumbed to injury? That would be a fair way of looking at it.



Funny you mention '91 Bulls. That was their easiest run. Isiah missed much of the season and was never the same. Pistons weren't even close to their championship level physically or mentally. In the Finals Worthy played injured and from Game 4 he and Scott DNP.

The Lakers competition in the West was no worse than the Bulls. Remember the early 80's Sonics, Rockets, and Spurs? Late 80's Rockets, Jazz, Blazers? Not exactly weak teams at all. In fact all except the Rockets had as much or more talent than any 90's team Jordan beat.

Expansion ruined in the league in the 90's. Teams were winning titles or at least seriously contending with 1 all-star and a bunch of role players. Look at Utah in '97 and '98, New York, San Antonio, Philly, and Houston in '94... Give me a team that Jordan faced that had a 2nd guy as good as Pippen or a 3rd guy as good as Grant or Rodman. I'll wait.
Gary Payton, Shawn Kemp, Detlef Schrempf:confusedshrug: Three multiple All Stars. We gon pretend Horace Grant was a perrenial All Star (has a grand total of one in 94). Sure he was a solid PF but some of you guys overrate him as if he was an elite PF:facepalm

[97 bulls]

Opinions are subjective but some are more grounded in fact than others. An opinion based on MVP's is more relevant than that based in "winning series you're supposed to win".*
MVPs are voted on. Meaning the voter feels this guy deserved it more than any other. How is that different from the assertion that very same person feeling that team A will beat team B?


There's much more figuring into team strength than just record. True Jordan never lost with home court but neither did Bill Russell.
This isn't true. Russells Celtics lost as the favorite in 1959 I believe to the ST.Louis Hawks.


Also while Jordan never lost series he was supposed to win he also rarely won series he was supposed to lose. Kareem on the other hand beat a few great teams as an underdog (by your definition...), the '82 Sixers and '85 Celtics. And Kareem beat several teams with slightly inferior records while his squads were decimated by injuries. That counts for something too.

Lol what? The Bulls weren't favored to win in 98. They also weren't favored to beat the Cavs in 89, or the Knicks right after that. The Suns in 93 had a better record than the Bulls also. Id hardly call the 82 Sixers "great", they were very good. Some feel the 1985 Celtics wouldve won had Bird not injured his hand in a bar fight.



More dominant how?*

Jabbar got Magic at age 33 in his 11th season. You think 96-97 Jordan to 02-03 Jordan would win 5 or more titles as part of Showtime even assuming he never retired or succumbed to injury? That would be a fair way of looking at it.
Not quite. Is Jordan supposed to be playing center? And lets not forget that by 87, jabaar was not even the second best player on the Lakers. Worthy was. So to answer your question, if Jordan joined the Spurs at 36 in place of Sean Elliot, hed easily have been able to do what Jabaar did as far as winning. Hell Steve Kerr left the Bulls and joined the Spurs and won two more rings.



The competition the Lakers faced in the West was no worse than the Bulls. Remember the early 80's Sonics, Rockets, and Spurs? Late 80's Rockets, Jazz, Blazers? Not exactly weak teams at all. In fact all except the Rockets had as much or more talent than any 90's team Jordan beat.*
The Knicks, Magic, Heat, Pacers, all had multiple All-Stars. And it still goes without saying, the Western Conference as a whole in the 80s was trash. Not saying there weren't some good teams, but as a whole? Trash.



Expansion ruined in the league in the 90's. Teams were winning titles or at least seriously contending with 1 all-star and a bunch of role players. Look at Utah in '97 and '98, New York, San Antonio, Philly, and Houston in '94... Give me a team that Jordan faced that had a 2nd guy as good as Pippen or a 3rd guy as good as Grant or Rodman. I'll wait.
Again, Id have to disagree. Consider this. Beginning in the late 80s, the NBA started looking overseas for NBA caliber talent. Not to mention the human population is always growing not declining (the talent pool theory). Combine those two factors and it becomes clear that it was harder to get into the NBA in the 90s than the 70/80s. And lets not forget that the NBA competed with the ABA for basketballs players. And not just the scrubs, but great players. Julius Erving, Artis Gilmore, Connie Hawkins, George Gervin, Rick Barry, if you need more I've got them. And the ABA lasted basically for the duration of Jabaars prime. So please, for your sake. Leave the exapansion theory alone

[97 bulls]

Originally posted by Jlauber
How about the "clutch" Kareem?

In his 71-72 season, he averaged 34.8 ppg on .574 during the regular season. In the first round of the playoffs, and against Thurmond, Nate outscored Kareem, per game, 25.2 ppg to 22.8 ppg, and outshot Kareem, .437 to .405. In the WCF's, Wilt held Kareem to 33 ppg on .457 shooting (including .414 over the last four pivotal games of that series...and decisively outplayed Kareem in the clinching game six win.)

In the 72-73 first round, Kareem took his 60-22 Bucks down in flames against Thurmond's 47-35 Warriors, averaging 22.8 ppg on .428 shooting.

Kareem played well in the 73-74 Finals, BUT, in game seven, and on his home floor, and against the underdog Celtics,...he was outplayed by 6-9 Dave Cowens in every facet of the game, and his Bucks were blown out.

Oscar retired after that season, and Kareem's Bucks went 38-44. True, he broke his hand, and missed 16 games...but even when he played, the Bucks were only 35-31. BTW, Wilt PLAYED in the clinching game five win of the '72 Finals with one badly sprained wrist...and the other, FRACTURED! Yet, Kareem would miss CHUNKS of TWO seasons with a broken wrist. Oh, and Rick Barry with rookie Jamaal Wilkes, and a cast of no-names, won the NBA title with a 48-34 record.

Kareem was shipped off to the Lakers before the start of the 75-76 season. Paired with HOF Gail Goodrich, Cazzie Russell, and a decent roster, the Lakers only went 40-42, and again, Kareem missed the playoffs. And, think about this... in Kareem's 71-72 season, he averaged a career high 44.2 mpg, and a career high, 34.8 ppg, on .574 shooting. That Bucks team went 63-19, and had a scoring differential of +11.1 ppg. So how come a more physically prime Kareem, could only play 41.2 mpg, and only average 27.7 ppg on .529 shooting in that 75-76 season, when his Laker team obviously needed him to step up? Wilt gets accused of "stats-padding", and yet, what about Kareem?

Kareem's 76-77 Lakers had the best record in the league. And, true, Kareem played brilliantly in the post-season. BUT, his team was SWEPT by Walton's 49-33 Blazers (who would go on to win the title.) Wilt had SEVERAL huge post-seasons in his career, and yet, when his teammates played horribly (as they ALWAYS did in his "scoring" seasons), it was WILT's fault. Yet, no blame for Kareem?

The 77-78 Lakers had arguably the most loaded roster in the league. They had Kareem, Norm Nixon, Lou Hudson, a Jamaal Wilkes with a couple of seasons under his belt since his title run with Barry in '75...and then they acquired Adrian Dantley, who was averaging 26.5 ppg when they got him. How did that pan out? They were were wiped out in the first round by a 47-35 Sonics team that had ONE borderline HOF player (Dennis Johnson.) BTW, the 44-38 Bullets won the title that season.

Ok, that Laker team returned nearly their entire roster for the 78-79 season. Once again, Kareem, Nixon, Hudson, Wilkes (who Barry could take to a title, and with FAR less talent), and Dantley. The result? A 47-35 record, and a 4-1 second round blowout loss against that same Sonics roster which would go 52-30 and win the NBA title.

All of that was B.M...Before Magic.

Magic arrived in the 79-80 season, and the result? A 60-22 record. A 4-1 annihilation of the same Sonics team that had manhandled Kareem's Lakers the two seasons before. And a trip to the Finals. Kareem once again played exceptionally, BUT, he suffered an ankle sprain in game five...and couldn't play in game six. Wait a second, didn't WILT PLAY FIVE games in the '68 ECF's with SEVERAL foot and leg injuries, including a tear in his quad? So, while Kareem nursed his sore ankle, all Magic did was hang a 42 point game, on 14-23 shooting from the field, and 14-14 from the line, a game-high 15 rebounds (and the next best player on the floor had 10), and seven assists...in a clinching game six win on the road.

Magic was injured for nearly half of the 80-81 season, and was nowhere near 100% in the first round against the 40-42 Rockets. Did Kareem step up his game like Magic did without him in the '80 Finals? No, instead the 6-10 Moses Malone outplays Kareem, and the Lakers were eliminated in the first round. BTW, Kareem shot .462 in that three game series...which was now the THIRD time in his post-season career in which he shot UNDER the league average (and two of them, at .437 and .428, were miles behind.)*


A PEAK Kareem, from '70 thru '72, as well as a prime KAJ from '73-74, over ANY year from MJ.

After that, there would be seasons in which they would be close, and probably overall, MJ with a slight career edge.
Funny you say this Lazeruss. Because my next post is a quote from you

[97 bulls]

Like Chamberlain, Jabaar has no claim over Jordan for GOAT. Past stats. And even then the comparison is deceptive because of the time Jabaar played in vs Jordan. Odin posted their playoff stats, in an earlier post.




Originally Posted by*Odinn

Jordan played 12 full seasons for Bulls and in 1998 playoffs he was 34.
At the end of 1983 playoffs, Kareem was 36 and completed his 14th full season.

33.4/6.4/5.7/1.8 vs. 28.8/14.0/3.7/3.4

Much more closer than you think. Huh?

Sure. Until you look at whats most important. How many wins?
Six Championships to three and Six Finals MVPs to one. Advantage Jordan.

[Big#50]

Duncan/Shaq>Both

[VIntageNOvel]

Yep that's him.


Thanks for the compliment coming from one of the smarter guys on here :bowdown:

Does fpliii stand for something?


arbitary, are you an alt? i remember you being quite a troll, but now you seems like a good poster

[Soundwave]

MJ's GOAT for a host of reasons but for me, I've never seen a basketball player (or any athlete in any team sport) be able to pretty much "will" his team to victory as often as Jordan could do it. That transcends stats. The fact that he has all the individual and championships and PER and all that stuff doesn't hurt.

That said, I think Kareem has a decent case for being no.2.

Also, damn, Jlauber knows his sh*t.

[LAZERUSS]

Funny you say this Lazeruss. Because my next post is a quote from you

Don't know about jlauber's opinion regarding KAJ's "clutch" play, but obviously I have seen single games used against Wilt, too. And in the 68-69 Finals, and entire series (although, to his credit, Wilt still outplayed Russell, and then hammered him in game seven.) So, yes, KAJ had single playoff game "failures", and sometimes in key games, and even an occasional poor series ('73 first round against Golden St.)

But then again, how about these...

84-85. MJ's Bulls are easily beaten by Milwaukee in the first round, in a series in which MJ shoots .436 from the field. In the clinching game four loss, MJ shoots 6-16 from the floor.

85-86. Everyone remembers MJ's 63 point playoff game (BTW, he "only" had 54 points in regulation, and needed double OT to score 63...in a loss.) How about his clinching (and sweeping) game three loss? 19 points on 8-18 shooting.

86-87. Once again, swept in the first round. In the clinching game three loss, MJ put up a nice game of 30 points... on 9-30 shooting from the field.

87-88. Blown out by Detroit in the second round, 4-1. In the clinching game five loss, MJ scores 25 points on 10-22 shooting. And in the season in which he averaged 35.0 ppg on .535 shooting...against the Bad Boys...27.4 ppg on .491.

88-89. Once again, beaten by the Pistons, 4-2. With the series tied 2-2, MJ plays 46 minutes, and goes 4-8 from the field, for 18 points. In a season in which he averaged 32.5 ppg on .538 shooting, he averages 29.7 ppg on a .460 FG% against Detroit.

89-90. His 55-27 Bulls again lose to the 59-23 Pistons, 4-3. He does put up a 31 point, 13-27 game seven, but in a 93-74 blowout loss. In a season in which he shot .538 from the field...he shoots .467 against Detroit.

90-91. Much like KAJ's '70-71 playoffs...bullet-proof.

91-92. Again, exceptional.

92-93. Against the Knicks, MJ shoots...get this... .400 from the floor (albeit in a series win.)

93-94. MJ retires, and is basically replaced by Toni Kukoc and Pete Myers. Chicago drops from a 57-25 record, all the way down to a 55-27 record. They would go on to lose a close seven game series against the 56-26 Knicks, who would go on to lose a close seven game series against the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals.

94-95. MJ returns to play the 17 games of the regular season. He is fully rested, and refreshed going into the playoffs. They lose in the second round to the 57-25 Magic, 4-2. In the clinching game six loss, MJ scores 24 points on 8-19 shooting.

95-96. The 72-10 Bulls win the title, however, in the Finals, MJ averages 27.3 ppg on .415 shooting, in a season in which he averaged 30.4 ppg on .495 shooting. In the clinching game six win...how about this... 22 points on 5-19 shooting.

96-97. Bulls win title. In the Finals, MJ shoots .455.

97-98. Bulls again win title. In the Finals MJ shoots .427 from the field.

Looks like MJ's "untouchable" aura has been spanked...

[SamuraiSWISH]

Duncan/Shaq>Both
Duncan and Shaq better than Jordan?

:oldlol:

[97 bulls]

Don't know about jlauber's opinion regarding KAJ's "clutch" play, but obviously I have seen single games used against Wilt, too. And in the 68-69 Finals, and entire series (although, to his credit, Wilt still outplayed Russell, and then hammered him in game seven.) So, yes, KAJ had single playoff game "failures", and sometimes in key games, and even an occasional poor series ('73 first round against Golden St.)

But then again, how about these...

84-85. MJ's Bulls are easily beaten by Milwaukee in the first round, in a series in which MJ shoots .436 from the field. In the clinching game four loss, MJ shoots 6-16 from the floor.

85-86. Everyone remembers MJ's 63 point playoff game (BTW, he "only" had 54 points in regulation, and needed double OT to score 63...in a loss.) How about his clinching (and sweeping) game three loss? 19 points on 8-18 shooting.

86-87. Once again, swept in the first round. In the clinching game three loss, MJ put up a nice game of 30 points... on 9-30 shooting from the field.

87-88. Blown out by Detroit in the second round, 4-1. In the clinching game five loss, MJ scores 25 points on 10-22 shooting. And in the season in which he averaged 35.0 ppg on .535 shooting...against the Bad Boys...27.4 ppg on .491.

88-89. Once again, beaten by the Pistons, 4-2. With the series tied 2-2, MJ plays 46 minutes, and goes 4-8 from the field, for 18 points. In a season in which he averaged 32.5 ppg on .538 shooting, he averages 29.7 ppg on a .460 FG% against Detroit.

89-90. His 55-27 Bulls again lose to the 59-23 Pistons, 4-3. He does put up a 31 point, 13-27 game seven, but in a 93-74 blowout loss. In a season in which he shot .538 from the field...he shoots .467 against Detroit.

90-91. Much like KAJ's '70-71 playoffs...bullet-proof.

91-92. Again, exceptional.

92-93. Against the Knicks, MJ shoots...get this... .400 from the floor (albeit in a series win.)

93-94. MJ retires, and is basically replaced by Toni Kukoc and Pete Myers. Chicago drops from a 57-25 record, all the way down to a 55-27 record. They would go on to lose a close seven game series against the 56-26 Knicks, who would go on to lose a close seven game series against the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals.

94-95. MJ returns to play the 17 games of the regular season. He is fully rested, and refreshed going into the playoffs. They lose in the second round to the 57-25 Magic, 4-2. In the clinching game six loss, MJ scores 24 points on 8-19 shooting.

95-96. The 72-10 Bulls win the title, however, in the Finals, MJ averages 27.3 ppg on .415 shooting, in a season in which he averaged 30.4 ppg on .495 shooting. In the clinching game six win...how about this... 22 points on 5-19 shooting.

96-97. Bulls win title. In the Finals, MJ shoots .455.

97-98. Bulls again win title. In the Finals MJ shoots .427 from the field.

Looks like MJ's "untouchable" aura has been spanked...
I don't see how. I could go through history and excerpt bad games and series from all players. What's the point? Jabaars teams lost with having teams that were much better than the teams he played on. You going back and picking out games and series means nothing because his team still won, and wouldn't have done it without him.

[CAstill]

Jordan was better. While reaching a finals and loosing shouldn't be a a knock so much, the point of getting there and never losing is more respectful. I also think that Jordan had more skill and if ever got to play a prime KAJ team with his own prime team, I feel that Jordan would be the victor. It's always hard to discuss a big vs wing. Jordan better though.

[Big#50]

Duncan and Shaq better than Jordan?

:oldlol:
Big Men>SG

[SamuraiSWISH]

Big Men>SG
Except when it comes to: Mike, LeBron, Bird, and possibly Magic. Possibly Kobe too.

[ArbitraryWater]

arbitary, are you an alt? i remember you being quite a troll, but now you seems like a good poster

What? I never was a troll. It's just easy to get Kobe stans pissed off. Of course imma push it a bit then, but never was a troll. Kobe stans throw that shit out quickly... no, not an alt. Cant believe how long I needed to wait to finally register

[ArbitraryWater]

Except when it comes to: Mike, LeBron, Bird, and possibly Magic. Possibly Kobe too.

I really don't see what should put Bird above Shaq...

Shaq's got: Dominance, Defense, Rebounding, Scoring, Peak, Prime, Playoff Performance, Finals, Titles, Finals MVP's...

Bird's got: Shooting, Playmaking, MVP's... but Shaq has always been a more dominant/greater peak player and better playoff performer.

[TheMan]

Except when it comes to: Mike, LeBron, Bird, and possibly Magic. Possibly Kobe too.
This

Usually you'd take a great big over a wing but not with those players listed above.

[jzek]

KAJ had Worthy (who won a FMVP) and Magic (arguably GOAT PG).

Jordan never had a teammate who won FMVP and Pippen is nowhere near the GOAT SF

Conclusion: Jordan won with less help and is thus more GOAT than KAJ.

[Odinn]

KAJ had Worthy (who won a FMVP) and Magic (arguably GOAT PG).

Jordan never had a teammate who won FMVP and Pippen is nowhere near the GOAT SF

Conclusion: Jordan won with less help and is thus more GOAT than KAJ.
Exemplary...:facepalm :facepalm

[dankok8]

*
MVPs are voted on. Meaning the voter feels this guy deserved it more than any other. How is that different from the assertion that very same person feeling that team A will beat team B?

Well over 90% of the time the MVP vote is pretty clear-cut and there is an obvious winner. Which team is supposed to beat which is much more open to discussion. There's an issue of health, match-ups, hot and cold streaks, SRS, point differential etc. W/L record is a poor or at least inadequate indicator of which team is better.


This isn't true. Russells Celtics lost as the favorite in 1959 I believe to the ST.Louis Hawks.

In 1958 Celtics lost to the Hawks but Russell was injured. When he went down the series was tied 1-1. He missed the 2nd half of Game 3, all of Game 4 & 5, and played sparingly while completely hobbled in Game 6.


Lol what? The Bulls weren't favored to win in 98. They also weren't favored to beat the Cavs in 89, or the Knicks right after that. The Suns in 93 had a better record than the Bulls also. Id hardly call the 82 Sixers "great", they were very good. Some feel the 1985 Celtics wouldve won had Bird not injured his hand in a bar fight.

Except in '98 vs. Utah and maybe in '89 (I'm not sure...) the Bulls were always favored. In the '93 Finals, KJ was struggling with injuries and Cedric Ceballos was DNP. Maybe a healthy Suns team could take down the Bulls?


Not quite. Is Jordan supposed to be playing center? And lets not forget that by 87, jabaar was not even the second best player on the Lakers. Worthy was. So to answer your question, if Jordan joined the Spurs at 36 in place of Sean Elliot, hed easily have been able to do what Jabaar did as far as winning. Hell Steve Kerr left the Bulls and joined the Spurs and won two more rings.


Kareem was 2nd best in '87 and only 3rd behind Worthy in '88. In the '87 Finals he averaged 21/7 and had a monster closeout game. The Lakers wouldn't win any of the titles without him. The Spurs won 2 titles with Robinson and Duncan and without Jordan. Bad analogy... :no:


The Knicks, Magic, Heat, Pacers, all had multiple All-Stars. And it still goes without saying, the Western Conference as a whole in the 80s was trash. Not saying there weren't some good teams, but as a whole? Trash.

Magic were a threat for all of 2 years in '95 and '96. Pacers and Heat didn't even have a player as good as Pippen let alone Jordan. Knicks were Ewing and a bunch of role players in a good defensive system.


Again, Id have to disagree. Consider this. Beginning in the late 80s, the NBA started looking overseas for NBA caliber talent. Not to mention the human population is always growing not declining (the talent pool theory). Combine those two factors and it becomes clear that it was harder to get into the NBA in the 90s than the 70/80s. And lets not forget that the NBA competed with the ABA for basketballs players. And not just the scrubs, but great players. Julius Erving, Artis Gilmore, Connie Hawkins, George Gervin, Rick Barry, if you need more I've got them. And the ABA lasted basically for the duration of Jabaars prime. So please, for your sake. Leave the exapansion theory alone

Gervin was very young in the ABA and Barry only went for a few years. Guys like Gilmore and Hawkins aren't superstars and wouldn't win MVP's in the NBA.

There are some FACTS that NBA >>> ABA:

1) Stats of most ABA players declined significantly upon merger and not just rebounding (due to pace). Tons of perennial ABA all-stars became irrelevant in the NBA... guys like Ralph Simpson, James Silas, Marvin Barnes, Don Buse, Billy Paultz etc. Even Dr J's numbers severely declined in the NBA.

2) NBA had lower FG% than the ABA before the merger

3) ABA was a faster paced league with a more open court style and was thus inherently less defensively oriented

4) Other than Bobby Jones ABA didn't bring any great defensive players into the NBA

5) Quotes and testimonies by contemporaries and experts that the NBA was a stronger league

[ArbitraryWater]

KAJ had Worthy (who won a FMVP) and Magic (arguably GOAT PG).

Jordan never had a teammate who won FMVP and Pippen is nowhere near the GOAT SF

Conclusion: Jordan won with less help and is thus more GOAT than KAJ.

:facepalm I don't think this quite deserves a reply for the simply fact that Kareem spent his first 10 Seasons AND PEAK WITHOUT Magic/Worthy, and for the most part without real title caliber help.

[ArbitraryWater]

Well over 90% of the time the MVP vote is pretty clear-cut and there is an obvious winner. Which team is supposed to beat which is much more open to discussion. There's an issue of health, match-ups, hot and cold streaks, SRS, point differential etc. W/L record is a poor or at least inadequate indicator of which team is better.



In 1958 Celtics lost to the Hawks but Russell was injured. When he went down the series was tied 1-1. He missed the 2nd half of Game 3, all of Game 4 & 5, and played sparingly while completely hobbled in Game 6.



Except in '98 vs. Utah and maybe in '89 (I'm not sure...) the Bulls were always favored. In the '93 Finals, KJ was struggling with injuries and Cedric Ceballos was DNP. Maybe a healthy Suns team could take down the Bulls?



Kareem was 2nd best in '87 and only 3rd behind Worthy in '88. In the '87 Finals he averaged 21/7 and had a monster closeout game. The Lakers wouldn't win any of the titles without him. The Spurs won 2 titles with Robinson and Duncan and without Jordan. Bad analogy... :no:



Magic were a threat for all of 2 years in '95 and '96. Pacers and Heat didn't even have a player as good as Pippen let alone Jordan. Knicks were Ewing and a bunch of role players in a good defensive system.



Gervin was very young in the ABA and Barry only went for a few years. Guys like Gilmore and Hawkins aren't superstars and wouldn't win MVP's in the NBA.

There are some FACTS that NBA >>> ABA:

1) Stats of most ABA players declined significantly upon merger and not just rebounding (due to pace). Tons of perennial ABA all-stars became irrelevant in the NBA... guys like Ralph Simpson, James Silas, Marvin Barnes, Don Buse, Billy Paultz etc. Even Dr J's numbers severely declined in the NBA.

2) NBA had lower FG% than the ABA before the merger

3) ABA was a faster paced league with a more open court style and was thus inherently less defensively oriented

4) Other than Bobby Jones ABA didn't bring any great defensive players into the NBA

5) Quotes and testimonies by contemporaries and experts that the NBA was a stronger league

My man, good comment.

Only thing I disagree with is Kareem being Nr. 2 Guy in 1987. No way he is.

Worthy has him in virtually every statistic and even comes close in Rebounding. At that time he would have been the Leader on most other teams, averaging maybe close to 25 PPG? Kareem was 3rd, and played meh. The defense wasn't all that anymore. In 1988 I'd be even more secure in saying he was easily replacable with another good role player.

But I don't even blame him for that. Dude was closing in on 40 and already played 15+ Years in the League... He is not who he is for what he did in 1987&1988.

And that last bit about NBA >>>> ABA, on which I totally agree, tell that to jlauber who thinks the merger didn't change anythign/didnt make a difference.. :no:

[JUDGE WITNESS]

jordan apostles insecure because lebron will retire with 8 rings, effectively cementing his status as the GOAT

[97 bulls]

Well over 90% of the time the MVP vote is pretty clear-cut and there is an obvious winner. Which team is supposed to beat which is much more open to discussion. There's an issue of health, match-ups, hot and cold streaks, SRS, point differential etc. W/L record is a poor or at least inadequate indicator of which team is better.*
No its not. There are very few years in which the MVP award is clear cut. Theres always two or three guys that have legit shots. Look at this year. Durant and James has strong cases.



Except in '98 vs. Utah and maybe in '89 (I'm not sure...) the Bulls were always favored. In the '93 Finals, KJ was struggling with injuries and Cedric Ceballos was DNP. Maybe a healthy Suns team could take down the Bulls?*
So what's the point? I'm not arguing that the Bulls weren't. I'm saying his teams never lost. The same can't be for Kareem. I posted that using the quote from another poster. I.sure would like to get your take on it.



Magic were a threat for all of 2 years in '95 and '96. Pacers and Heat didn't even have a player as good as Pippen let alone Jordan. Knicks were Ewing and a bunch of role players in a good defensive system.*
The Lakers never competed a perenial great team in the West. Besides, my point was that the West as a whole was bad in the 80s. Similar to today in the East. You have the Heat and Pacers and thats it.


Gervin was very young in the ABA and Barry only went for a few years. Guys like Gilmore and Hawkins aren't superstars and wouldn't win MVP's in the NBA.*

There are some FACTS that NBA >>> ABA:

1) Stats of most ABA players declined significantly upon merger and not just rebounding (due to pace). Tons of perennial ABA all-stars became irrelevant in the NBA... guys like Ralph Simpson, James Silas, Marvin Barnes, Don Buse, Billy Paultz etc. Even Dr J's numbers severely declined in the NBA.*

2) NBA had lower FG% than the ABA before the merger

3) ABA was a faster paced league with a more open court style and was thus inherently less defensively oriented

4) Other than Bobby Jones ABA didn't bring any great defensive players into the NBA

5) Quotes and testimonies by contemporaries and experts that the NBA was a stronger

**
I still don't see your argument. Or better yet you don't have one. If you penalize Jordan's Bulls runs due to expansion, with the logic that the talent is spread across more teams, then you must feel the same way about the 70s. Because the ABA took a lot of very good players.

[TheMan]

jordan apostles insecure because lebron will retire with 8 rings, effectively cementing his status as the GOAT
So after leading his team to 2-3 chips, you're saying Bran gon' join up with peak KD and then AWiggins to get to 8?:oldlol:

[Big#50]

KAJ had Worthy (who won a FMVP) and Magic (arguably GOAT PG).

Jordan never had a teammate who won FMVP and Pippen is nowhere near the GOAT SF

Conclusion: Jordan won with less help and is thus more GOAT than KAJ.
JORDAN had stacked teams. Never faced a better team than he had in any of his finals.

[TheMan]

JORDAN had stacked teams. Never faced a better team than he had in any of his finals.
Wrong, '93 Suns had a better record, so did the '98 Jazz...they didn't win chips because MJ lead his team to victory:rockon:

[KOBE143]

GOAT who? MJ or KAJ? no Kobe? :facepalm

Both has no case over Kobe.. GOAT cute player! :bowdown:

Close thread pls :lol

[dankok8]

No its not. There are very few years in which the MVP award is clear cut. Theres always two or three guys that have legit shots. Look at this year. Durant and James has strong cases.

So what's the point? I'm not arguing that the Bulls weren't. I'm saying his teams never lost. The same can't be for Kareem. I posted that using the quote from another poster. I.sure would like to get your take on it.

The Lakers never competed a perenial great team in the West. Besides, my point was that the West as a whole was bad in the 80s. Similar to today in the East. You have the Heat and Pacers and thats it.

**
I still don't see your argument. Or better yet you don't have one. If you penalize Jordan's Bulls runs due to expansion, with the logic that the talent is spread across more teams, then you must feel the same way about the 70s. Because the ABA took a lot of very good players.

A vast majority of years in NBA history had a very clear-cut single favorite for MVP. And most other years have very few clear choices as well. You make it sound like the MVP award got repeatedly given incorrectly... The only controversial MVP ever given was to Wes Unseld in 1969. All the others had strong cases in their favor.

And then I guess Finals MVP's are better which determine the best player in a span of 4-7 games instead of a whole season? A thread was made just the other day that Kareem was robbed off the 1980 Finals MVP by the way...

The 70's NBA wasn't diluted by expansion. It was missing the ABA stars but it also had fewer teams than it would if it was a unified league. 70's NBA had a high concentration of talent, 90's NBA did not.

And again which team did Jordan's Bulls face in the 90's that had a 2nd option as a good as Pippen, a 3rd option as good as Grant/Rodman, a coach as good as Phil Jackson? The Chicago Bulls were arguably the most stacked team relative to their own era in history.

[Big#50]

Wrong, '93 Suns had a better record, so did the '98 Jazz...they didn't win chips because MJ lead his team to victory:rockon:
Nope. I will give you 93 Suns. Only because their offense was super strong. Majerle was their best defender.
Yes, I have said before the 90's belonged to Jordan. He had no rival. He was way ahead of everybody.
Duncan/Shaq> MJ

[Soundwave]

Wrong, '93 Suns had a better record, so did the '98 Jazz...they didn't win chips because MJ lead his team to victory:rockon:

Scottie Pippen couldn't even walk by the end of that series in '98 to boot. If MJ didn't basically win game 6 on his own who knows what happens in a game 7.

The "stacked" Bulls second scoring option (Scottie Pippen) put up 16 ppg and shot under 41.5% for the playoffs in 1998 for example. Shaq-Kobe that ain't ... and Bird-McHale-Parrish or Magic-Kareem-Worthy is sure as hell wasn't either.

The '96 Magic were stacked too ... so many people back in those days were saying the Bulls were done and it was Orlando's time, especially after '95.

[Soundwave]

Nope. I will give you 93 Suns. Only because their offense was super strong. Majerle was their best defender.
Yes, I have said before the 90's belonged to Jordan. He had no rival. He was way ahead of everybody.
Duncan/Shaq> MJ

Jordan honestly probably was the best player in the world by 1987 or so, the Bulls just didn't have a good (or really even decent) team around him.

Larry Bird was pushing the Celtics front office to keep improving the team so they could win as much as possible before the Bulls got Jordan a good team because he knew what was coming.

If he had been drafted by Portland (dat Sam Bowie, lol) they'd probably start winning titles 2-3 years earlier.

Also *a lot* of people were picking Phoenix to beat the Bulls in '93, the idea that the Bulls were the overwhelming favorite IMO is pushed by people who probably weren't watching basketball back then.

Couldn't walk down the street without some kid with a Suns Barkley jersey talking sh*t before that series.

[Angel Face]

Jordan

Not only because of his awards and stats, his popularity as well. He is a global icon.

[Big#50]

Jordan honestly probably was the best player in the world by 1987 or so, the Bulls just didn't have a good (or really even decent) team around him.

Larry Bird was pushing the Celtics front office to keep improving the team so they could win as much as possible before the Bulls got Jordan a good team because he knew what was coming.

If he had been drafted by Portland (dat Sam Bowie, lol) they'd probably start winning titles 2-3 years earlier.

Also *a lot* of people were picking Phoenix to beat the Bulls in '93, the idea that the Bulls were the overwhelming favorite IMO is pushed by people who probably weren't watching basketball back then.

Couldn't walk down the street without some kid with a Suns Barkley jersey talking sh*t before that series.
I don't agree. He wasn't the clear cut behemoth of the league like in the 90's.

[TheMan]

A vast majority of years in NBA history had a very clear-cut single favorite for MVP. And most other years have very few clear choices as well. You make it sound like the MVP award got repeatedly given incorrectly... The only controversial MVP ever given was to Wes Unseld in 1969. All the others had strong cases in their favor.

And then I guess Finals MVP's are better which determine the best player in a span of 4-7 games instead of a whole season? A thread was made just the other day that Kareem was robbed off the 1980 Finals MVP by the way...

The 70's NBA wasn't diluted by expansion. It was missing the ABA stars but it also had fewer teams than it would if it was a unified league. 70's NBA had a high concentration of talent, 90's NBA did not.

And again which team did Jordan's Bulls face in the 90's that had a 2nd option as a good as Pippen, a 3rd option as good as Grant/Rodman, a coach as good as Phil Jackson? The Chicago Bulls were arguably the most stacked team relative to their own era in history.
I wish you'd stop with this blatant lie.
I already posted that the 96 Sonics had 3 multiple years All Stars in Payton, Kemp and Schrempf and George Karl is a pretty damn good coach. You act like Phil Jackson was some genius established coach when he took over the Bulls HC job. You do realize that was his first NBA HC job, right? MJ made him as much as he made the MJ/Bulls.

If the Bulls were so damn stacked, why did MJ have to do so much heavy lifting in those crucial do or die games? I actually watched them, I remember Kerr bricking his shots vs the Jazz in 98, he was horrible that series. Kukoc was useless in other series as well (horrible defensive player, got eaten alive by physical PFs in the post). Dennis Rodman could grab rebounds for sure but he was offensively challenged, pretty much scored on putbacks, not much else, plus we're talking about past his prime/peak Worm.

History would look a whole lot diferent if the Bulls would've lost a few Finals, say the 93 Finals, then all of us here would be talking about the great Barkley Suns, or against the Blazers, 2 Finals and one NBA chip. Or the Jazz if they had won one of their two Finals appearances. Fact is, those teams were damn good teams that could've won in other eras but MJ was just so great that they couldn't get over the top.

I remember in game 6 vs the Knicks in 93, the Bulls were about to sweep them after starting the series 0-2 and it looking dismal for us Bulls fans, Marv Albert and Mike Fratello were discussing the possibility of Ewing just not being good enough to lead them to a title and Fratello said it was more like MJ was just impossible to beat at that moment. That he was just to good now that he had a decent team around him. BTW, that Knicks team was pretty good, they could've won at least one title if it weren't for MJ/Bulls. They were a great defensive team with one star surrounded by really good players led by a great coach (Pat Riley), a bit like the 04 Pistons, go ahead and name me one future HOFer from that team.

MJ DENIED some of those teams, (Clyde's Blazers, Payton's Sonics, KMalone's Jazz, Barkley's Suns, Zo's Heat, RMiller's Pacers, Ewing's Knicks, Shaq/Penny's Magic) from winning a title and achieving greatness because he WILLED HIS TEAM TO VICTORY, he never piggybacked a teammate to a title, if the Bulls were so stacked, wouldn't that have been the case at least once in their title runs?:confusedshrug:

KAJ had a prime HOFer, FMVP, MVP top 3 -5 GOAT teammate...MJ had a HOF teammate somewhere in the top 25-30 range...he absolutely did more with less, that's why his postseason stats blow KAJ's out of the water.

(excuse the grammatical errors, I'm on my phone:oldlol: )

[dankok8]

I wish you'd stop with this blatant lie.
I already posted that the 96 Sonics had 3 multiple years All Stars in Payton, Kemp and Schrempf and George Karl is a pretty damn good coach. You act like Phil Jackson was some genius established coach when he took over the Bulls HC job. You do realize that was his first NBA HC job, right? MJ made him as much as he made the MJ/Bulls.

If the Bulls were so damn stacked, why did MJ have to do so much heavy lifting in those crucial do or die games? I actually watched them, I remember Kerr bricking his shots vs the Jazz in 98, he was horrible that series. Kukoc was useless in other series as well (horrible defensive player, got eaten alive by physical PFs in the post). Dennis Rodman could grab rebounds for sure but he was offensively challenged, pretty much scored on putbacks, not much else, plus we're talking about past his prime/peak Worm.

History would look a whole lot diferent if the Bulls would've lost a few Finals, say the 93 Finals, then all of us here would be talking about the great Barkley Suns, or against the Blazers, 2 Finals and one NBA chip. Or the Jazz if they had won one of their two Finals appearances. Fact is, those teams were damn good teams that could've won in other eras but MJ was just so great that they couldn't get over the top.

I remember in game 6 vs the Knicks in 93, the Bulls were about to sweep them after starting the series 0-2 and it looking dismal for us Bulls fans, Marv Albert and Mike Fratello were discussing the possibility of Ewing just not being good enough to lead them to a title and Fratello said it was more like MJ was just impossible to beat at that moment. That he was just to good now that he had a decent team around him. BTW, that Knicks team was pretty good, they could've won at least one title if it weren't for MJ/Bulls. They were a great defensive team with one star surrounded by really good players led by a great coach (Pat Riley), a bit like the 04 Pistons, go ahead and name me one future HOFer from that team.

MJ DENIED some of those teams, (Clyde's Blazers, Payton's Sonics, KMalone's Jazz, Barkley's Suns, Zo's Heat, RMiller's Pacers, Ewing's Knicks, Shaq/Penny's Magic) from winning a title and achieving greatness because he WILLED HIS TEAM TO VICTORY, he never piggybacked a teammate to a title, if the Bulls were so stacked, wouldn't that have been the case at least once in their title runs?:confusedshrug:

KAJ had a prime HOFer, FMVP, MVP top 3 -5 GOAT teammate...MJ had a HOF teammate somewhere in the top 25-30 range...he absolutely did more with less, that's why his postseason stats blow KAJ's out of the water.

(excuse the grammatical errors, I'm on my phone:oldlol: )

Don't be patronizing... I'm well aware of Phil's career. It doesn't change the fact he's the GOAT coach or at least consensus top 3 on any credible list. No rival coach of his except Riley deserves to be mentioned in the same breadth.

I've always said the Sonics are the single best team the Bulls have ever faced in any of their runs. However neither Kemp or Payton are even as good as Pippen. It's telling that the Sonics won 64 games but their 2 best players finished outside of the top 5 in MVP voting. Compare the two teams top to bottom and the Bulls are easily more talented.

Please don't talk about the '98 Jazz. Stockton was a role player by that point and wasn't even an all-star. They had Bryon Russell and Greg Ostertag in the starting lineup. The Knicks had Ewing and a bunch of role players in a great defensive system but still they were terrible on offense. Without Malone and Ewing, respectively, those teams would have been lucky to win 25 games.

And it's funny you mention that '93 Knicks series where Jordan was just atrocious shooting the ball... 10-27 (37.0%), 12-32 (37.5%), 3-18 (16.7%), 18-30 (60%), 11-24 (45.8%), 8-24 (33.3%). Other than a monster Game 4 where he scored 54 points he averaged just 27.8 ppg on 44-125 (35.2%) shooting for the remainder of the series.

And you justify the lack of HOF talent for the Bulls opponents by citing the '04 Pistons which are the SOLE EXCEPTION in NBA history. And heck even then Ben Wallace might make it. The '90's Sonics had 1 HOF (Payton), the 90's Knicks had 1 HOF (Ewing), and the '90 Jazz had 2 HOF (Malone and Stockton) although John was already way out of his prime by the team they got to the Bulls. Lakers, Blazers, and Suns also had 1 (healthy) HOF player each. Bulls always had 2 HOFer in their first threepeat and then 3 HOFers in the second threepeat.

The 90's Bulls have not played a single series where they faced 2 or more healthy HOFers on the opposing team.

Kareem got Magic at 33 years old. Virtually no other player in league history could capitalize on that help because they would be washed up. Plus we both know Magic wasn't considered the best in the game until 86-87. In many early years his impact was no greater than Pippen's...

[97 bulls]

The 70's NBA wasn't diluted by expansion. It was missing the ABA stars but it also had fewer teams than it would if it was a unified league. 70's NBA had a high concentration of talent, 90's NBA did not.*
What are you talking about? I already addressed this line of reasoning. let me break it down to you mathematically.

In the 70s, the US population (the talent pool) was roughly 216 million. Thats 7.8 million people per team. In the 90s the population was roughly 270 million. Thats 9 million people per 30 teams as opposed to the 28 when combining the unified leagues. So based on your logic, it was harder to make the NBA in 90s than the 70s. And that's not factoring in the influx of European talent that took spots from American born players.

You make it seem as if they just let anybody play in the league by the time the 90s roled around. The fact is that only a small fraction of humans are good enough to make it in the NBA then, in the 80s, 90s, 00s up to now. The "diluted talent" theory is a weak one at best.


And again which team did Jordan's Bulls face in the 90's that had a 2nd option as a good as Pippen, a 3rd option as good as Grant/Rodman, a coach as good as Phil Jackson? The Chicago Bulls were arguably the most stacked team relative to their own era in history.

Scottie Pippen was a beats bro. You get no argument from me about that. But the same can be said about all the dynasties. How many teams had a number two guy as good as Worthy or Mchale? Or a younf Magic? Or a Jabaar in his early 30s?

[Soundwave]

The Bulls are a bit of a unique case in NBA history in that most "stacked" teams were considerably deeper offensively.

The 80s Lakers, Celtics, and even the Pistons were deeper than the Bulls. Hell, honestly the 2000 Lakers were probably deeper than the Bulls too.

Scottie Pippen was never a dominant offensive player, in fact people need to actually look at his playoff stats, in the last three Bulls titles he never shot over 41.5% from the field and only average over 17 ppg in one of the Bulls last three title runs.

The Bulls are unique in that they combined a very high end defence and happened to also have the most dominant scorer in NBA history in that mix.

That's a little unusual of a 1-2 combo, to have such solid defence + such an elite offensive producer. Combine Jordan's ability to raise his game to almost video game levels of crazy in clutch situations ... all that made the Bulls almost impossible to beat.

Also the idea that no teams in the 90s had more than 2 scoring threats is a bunch of crap, lol.

The 90s Magic, Sonics, Suns, Blazers, Pacers (98 squad) all had three good scoring options at minimum. People who don't think the Jazz were a good team also convienantly gloss over that the Jazz whupped a prime Shaq and a very deep Lakers squad for a couple of years before age completely caught up to them.

[Straight_Ballin]

I'll just leave this here:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gY9MUu6lRGM

[SamuraiSWISH]

The Bulls are a bit of a unique case in NBA history in that most "stacked" teams were considerably deeper offensively.

The 80s Lakers, Celtics, and even the Pistons were deeper than the Bulls. Hell, honestly the 2000 Lakers were probably deeper than the Bulls too.

Scottie Pippen was never a dominant offensive player, in fact people need to actually look at his playoff stats, in the last three Bulls titles he never shot over 41.5% from the field and only average over 17 ppg in one of the Bulls last three title runs.

The Bulls are unique in that they combined a very high end defence and happened to also have the most dominant scorer in NBA history in that mix.

That's a little unusual of a 1-2 combo, to have such solid defence + such an elite offensive producer. Combine Jordan's ability to raise his game to almost video game levels of crazy in clutch situations ... all that made the Bulls almost impossible to beat.

Also the idea that no teams in the 90s had more than 2 scoring threats is a bunch of crap, lol.

The 90s Magic, Sonics, Suns, Blazers, Pacers (98 squad) all had three good scoring options at minimum. People who don't think the Jazz were a good team also convienantly gloss over that the Jazz whupped a prime Shaq and a very deep Lakers squad for a couple of years before age completely caught up to them.
:applause:

[Soundwave]

Fun fact as well - the '96 Magic and '96 Sonics both had five players averaging over 11 ppg ... I believe Indiana is the only team in the league today that can claim that kind of depth and that's only after the Evan Turner deal, and their no.1 option is not as good as Shaq '96 or Kemp '96.

No depth my ass.

[SamuraiSWISH]

and their no.1 option is not as good as Shaq '96
Their #1 option isn't as good as '96 Penny or '96 GP, either.

[fpliii]

KAJ had a prime HOFer, FMVP, MVP top 3 -5 GOAT teammate...MJ had a HOF teammate somewhere in the top 25-30 range...he absolutely did more with less, that's why his postseason stats blow KAJ's out of the water.
Doesn't have anything to do with the fact that MJ played in his last postseason at age 34, while Kareem went seven more years past his prime in a reduced role, right? Kareem through 81-82:

29.1/14.8/3.9/1.2/3.3 on 53.2% shooting.

Horribly flawed argument.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Doesn't have anything to do with the fact that MJ played in his last postseason at age 34
35, actually.

[fpliii]

35, actually.
Just going by B-R ages. Kareem was 35 during the playoffs in 81-82 (the last year I included in the above stats) as well.

I'm not even a huge Kareem guy (and I think MJ is clearly greater), but that line about MJ's postseason stats "blowing his out of the water" had to be corrected.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Just going by B-R ages. Kareem was 35 during the playoffs in 81-82 (the last year I included in the above stats) as well.
Oh I know, they're wrong though. It needs to be corrected. MJ's birthday is in the middle of the regular season.

[97 bulls]

The Bulls are a bit of a unique case in NBA history in that most "stacked" teams were considerably deeper offensively.

The 80s Lakers, Celtics, and even the Pistons were deeper than the Bulls. Hell, honestly the 2000 Lakers were probably deeper than the Bulls too.

Scottie Pippen was never a dominant offensive player, in fact people need to actually look at his playoff stats, in the last three Bulls titles he never shot over 41.5% from the field and only average over 17 ppg in one of the Bulls last three title runs.

The Bulls are unique in that they combined a very high end defence and happened to also have the most dominant scorer in NBA history in that mix.

That's a little unusual of a 1-2 combo, to have such solid defence + such an elite offensive producer. Combine Jordan's ability to raise his game to almost video game levels of crazy in clutch situations ... all that made the Bulls almost impossible to beat.

Also the idea that no teams in the 90s had more than 2 scoring threats is a bunch of crap, lol.

The 90s Magic, Sonics, Suns, Blazers, Pacers (98 squad) all had three good scoring options at minimum. People who don't think the Jazz were a good team also convienantly gloss over that the Jazz whupped a prime Shaq and a very deep Lakers squad for a couple of years before age completely caught up to them.
Which shows why it's important that we stop looking at players based solely on their ability to score. The Bulls were just as stacked as far as talent and impact.

Stop looking solely at Scottie Pippens ppg and FG% and start assessing how much impact he had on the court. What Scottie Pippen did to Mark Jackson and John Stockton defensively in the 98 Finals and ECF had just as much impact as that of a player dropping 30 ppg. efficiently.

Not to mention the fact that unlike other great teams, who when their leader fell to injury or retired, they fell way off. As opposed to the Bulls who still were extremely competitive even without Jordan. The fact is the Bulls were a great team. But that doesn't mean that it should in any way belittle Jordans dominance.

[fpliii]

Oh I know, they're wrong though. It needs to be corrected. MJ's birthday is in the middle of the regular season.
True. I think they use age in the middle of the year for the regular season, but I don't see why they can't use actual age in the playoffs.

[Soundwave]

Which shows why it's important that we stop looking at players based solely on their ability to score. The Bulls were just as stacked as far as talent and impact.

Stop looking solely at Scottie Pippens ppg and FG% and start assessing how much impact he had on the court. What Scottie Pippen did to Mark Jackson and John Stockton defensively in the 98 Finals and ECF had just as much impact as that of a player dropping 30 ppg. efficiently.

Not to mention the fact that unlike other great teams, who when their leader fell to injury or retired, they fell way off. As opposed to the Bulls who still were extremely competitive even without Jordan. The fact is the Bulls were a great team. But that doesn't mean that it should in any way belittle Jordans dominance.

The Bulls are simply a unique case, there isn't really anything like that in NBA history where a team was so dominant without necessarily having 3-4 fairly high end scoring options.

For one of their playoff runs I think they barely even had 3 guys averaging double digit points (Kukoc at 10.8 ppg was the third leading scorer in one of the years, everyone else was under 10 ppg).

The Bulls were competetive for only 1 year without Jordan too ... the other year (which no one seems to want to talk about) they were barely a .500 team.

If Jordan doesn't come back the Bulls would've been mediocre for years. It's a monumental fluke that baseball went on strike, that saved Chicago Bulls basketball from mediocrity.

[97 bulls]

The Bulls are simply a unique case, there isn't really anything like that in NBA history where a team was so dominant without necessarily having 3-4 fairly high end scoring options.

For one of their playoff runs I think they barely even had 3 guys averaging double digit points (Kukoc at 10.8 ppg was the third leading scorer in one of the years, everyone else was under 10 ppg).

The Bulls were competetive for only 1 year without Jordan too ... the other year (which no one seems to want to talk about) they were barely a .500 team.

If Jordan doesn't come back the Bulls would've been mediocre for years. It's a monumental fluke that baseball went on strike, that saved Chicago Bulls basketball from mediocrity.
I don't mind talking about the 95 team. They not only lost Jordan but they had no frontline. And they didn't replace them with viable replacements. Gone were Cartwright, Scott Williams,.Stacy King, Horace Grant, Luc Longley had an injury plagued season. They had Guys like Larry Krystowiak, Greg Foster, Dickey Simpkins, starting. They eventually settled in on Kukoc who is a tall guard.

And even with all that their record was comparable to the Celtics when they lost Bird in 89, and the Lakers the year they lost Magic. How good would the Celtics be without Bird and Parish? Or the Lakers without Magic and Scott?

[SamuraiSWISH]

True. I think they use age in the middle of the year for the regular season, but I don't see why they can't use actual age in the playoffs.
Jordan was 34 in Nov, Dec, and Jan.

He's 35 in Feb, March, April, May, and June. The majority of the season.

I don't get bball reference sometimes.

[fpliii]

Jordan was 34 in Nov, Dec, and Jan.

He's 35 in Feb, March, April, May, and June. The majority of the season.

I don't get bball reference sometimes.
According to their glossary:

Age
Age; player age on February 1 of the given season.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html

By virtue of two weeks, they decide to list him as a year younger in the PLAYOFFS several months later. :oldlol:











:facepalm SMH B-R

[Big#50]

The Bulls are a bit of a unique case in NBA history in that most "stacked" teams were considerably deeper offensively.

The 80s Lakers, Celtics, and even the Pistons were deeper than the Bulls. Hell, honestly the 2000 Lakers were probably deeper than the Bulls too.

Scottie Pippen was never a dominant offensive player, in fact people need to actually look at his playoff stats, in the last three Bulls titles he never shot over 41.5% from the field and only average over 17 ppg in one of the Bulls last three title runs.

The Bulls are unique in that they combined a very high end defence and happened to also have the most dominant scorer in NBA history in that mix.

That's a little unusual of a 1-2 combo, to have such solid defence + such an elite offensive producer. Combine Jordan's ability to raise his game to almost video game levels of crazy in clutch situations ... all that made the Bulls almost impossible to beat.

Also the idea that no teams in the 90s had more than 2 scoring threats is a bunch of crap, lol.

The 90s Magic, Sonics, Suns, Blazers, Pacers (98 squad) all had three good scoring options at minimum. People who don't think the Jazz were a good team also convienantly gloss over that the Jazz whupped a prime Shaq and a very deep Lakers squad for a couple of years before age completely caught up to them.

Pippen was an excellent point forward. Probably the best ever. He is also a top three perimeter defender of all time. PPG doesn't tell the whole story.

[PsychoBe]

Pippen was an excellent point forward. Probably the best ever. He is also a top three perimeter defender of all time. PPG doesn't tell the whole story.

it tells you why jordan had to have the highest ppg average in the post-season in nba history to win as consistently as he did.

[dankok8]

97 Bulls...

I'm completely with you on Pippen's greatness. Apart from being a great go-to scorer Pip did absolutely everything else at a high level... defensive stopper, versatile as any player ever, leader, playmaker, great rebounder for a SF etc. Injuries and losing Grant really hurt the Bulls in '95 and there is no reason to think the Bulls couldn't be a contender for years. However you can't have it both ways. If the Bulls can be that good without Jordan doesn't that prove they were a stacked team?

Honestly relative to their own eras the two most overpowering teams in terms of talent are IMO the early 60's Celtics and the 90's Bulls. Do people forget that Ron Harper was 20+ ppg scorer in Cleveland and then relegated to a minor role in Chicago? Wasn't Kukoc consdered an international star and averaged 15+ ppg in several seasons?

[97 bulls]

97 Bulls...

I'm completely with you on Pippen's greatness. Apart from being a great go-to scorer Pip did absolutely everything else at a high level... defensive stopper, versatile as any player ever, leader, playmaker, great rebounder for a SF etc. Injuries and losing Grant really hurt the Bulls in '95 and there is no reason to think the Bulls couldn't be a contender for years. However you can't have it both ways. If the Bulls can be that good without Jordan doesn't that prove they were a stacked team?

Honestly relative to their own eras the two most overpowering teams in terms of talent are IMO the early 60's Celtics and the 90's Bulls. Do people forget that Ron Harper was 20+ ppg scorer in Cleveland and then relegated to a minor role in Chicago? Wasn't Kukoc consdered an international star and averaged 15+ ppg in several seasons?
I agree they were stacked. I fight Jordan fans tooth and nail every few weeks in an effort to show the Bulls werent Jordan and a bunch of solid role players.

I've always said that the Bulls had the Goat player ever, the most versitle player ever, the great rebounder ever, one of the best sixthmen ever, the greatets coach ever, and three of the greatest defenders ever. That's stacked.

But consider this. They winning games at a rate on a yearly basis that was other all-time great teams best historically. 67? 72? 69? 55 without Jordan? 62 with Pippen missing half the season?

And even if you discredit those wins to it being due to expansion, they won 55 without Jordan in a league with the same amount of teams as the Bad Boy Pistons and the last Showtime Lakers championship squad.