if/when wade wins five plus rings, is he higher than kobe on the all time list?

[Keno]

for me, if he wins only five i would have say no. but if he wins six while putting up better than average stats to win those championships, then i would say yes.

discuss.

[DMAVS41]

doubtful...he'd have to play a lot better than he has the last two playoff runs.

I love Wade...and would take him peak vs peak over Kobe, but Kobe was great in 01, 02, 09, and 10.....for four of his 5 titles

Wade was great in 06, but wasn't as good as Kobe was in any of the above 4 in 12 and 13.

So it matters not just winning with stacked teams...it matters how you play as well. At least Kobe was still beasting with Shaq...Wade was a shell in 13 and good but not great in 12.

[Keno]

doubtful...he'd have to play a lot better than he has the last two playoff runs.

I love Wade...and would take him peak vs peak over Kobe, but Kobe was great in 01, 02, 09, and 10.....for four of his 5 titles

Wade was great in 06, but wasn't as good as Kobe was in any of the above 4 in 12 and 13.

So it matters not just winning with stacked teams...it matters how you play as well. At least Kobe was still beasting with Shaq...Wade was a shell in 13 and good but not great in 12.

wade in the 2009 regular season was arguably as good as kobe ever was. wade in the 2006 finals was better than any version of finals kobe ever had. but yea, i said that in the original post too, if he puts up better than average stats and wins those rings, it's hard to say no.

[BasedTom]

Winning 5 or 6 championships with the franchise that drafted you is a difficult task. If he can do it, then we can have this discussion and argue about rankings, but right now I think it's great that he has 3.

if we rank players on championships that they haven't won yet, why not just say "Willl Lebron surpass Wilt if he scores 120 points in a game?" or "If Jason Collins wins FMVP this year what does it mean for the NBA"...Those are extreme examples of course, but my point still stands

[moe94]

Wade could win 7 rings and still not be rated higher than Kobe. :confusedshrug:

[navy]

If he wins 3 FMVP then we will talk.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Wade could win 7 rings and still not be rated higher than Kobe. :confusedshrug:
2nd option 20 - 25 ppg / 5 apg / 5 rpg is roughly equivalent to basically Kobe's first three rings. If he won 6 rings with numbers like that plus his FMVP season. Why wouldn't there be a case to rank him over Kobe? This is highly unlikely, just saying.

[Keno]

Wade could win 7 rings and still not be rated higher than Kobe. :confusedshrug:

:facepalm

when trolling goes wrong.

[navy]

Wade could win 7 rings and still not be rated higher than Kobe. :confusedshrug:
Depends on how he wins those rings.

[Big_Dogg]

Hold up, don't people always say Kobe should never be classed as great because he supposedly rode Shaq's coat tails to his first 3 rings?

If so, Wade should never be considered greater or even in the same sentence because the same rule should apply, it can be said he rode Shaq and LeBron's coat tails to the rings he has now.

Fair is fair

[moe94]

2nd option 20 - 25 ppg / 5 apg / 5 rpg is roughly equivalent to basically Kobe's first three rings. If he won 6 rings with numbers like that plus his FMVP season. Why wouldn't there be a case to rank him over Kobe? This is highly unlikely, just saying.

Have you seen Wade's production for the last two rings? To say he's nowhere near 01-02 Kobe would be quite the understatement. Unless Wade returns to 2011 form and wins 4 more rings, this is just hilarity.

[Keno]

Hold up, don't people always say Kobe should never be classed as great because he supposedly rode Shaq's coat tails to his first 3 rings?

If so, Wade should never be considered greater or even in the same sentence because the same rule should apply, it can be said he rode Shaq and LeBron's coat tails to the rings he has now.

Fair is fair

without riding coat tails:
wade: 1 fmvp, 1 ring
kobe: 2 fmvp, 2 ring (2010 is a serious toss up with gasol) 1 mvp (also a serious toss up with cp3)

i know it seems like i am trolling with kobe here, but most nba heads also believe this.

[JohnFreeman]

Yes.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Have you seen Wade's production for the last two rings? To say he's nowhere near 01-02 Kobe would be quite the understatement. Unless Wade returns to 2011 form and wins 4 more rings, this is just hilarity.
Umm Wade's 2012 run was pretty good. His 2013 was weak, but he was injured. Miami also faced meaningless shit opposition with a rash of injuries the first 2x rounds so it's moot. His play in the Finals was pretty good.

I'm not actually entertaining him being better than Kobe, because he's not. I'm just asking a hypothetical, that's all.

[Keno]

Have you seen Wade's production for the last two rings? To say he's nowhere near 01-02 Kobe would be quite the understatement. Unless Wade returns to 2011 form and wins 4 more rings, this is just
hilarity.

2012 and last year wade was years ahead of 2000 kobe though. and i mean years.

[MichaelCorleone]

Wade will be high w/ 6 rings no question.

[tpols]

2nd option 20 - 25 ppg / 5 apg / 5 rpg is roughly equivalent to basically Kobe's first three rings. If he won 6 rings with numbers like that plus his FMVP season. Why wouldn't there be a case to rank him over Kobe? This is highly unlikely, just saying.

Wade has averaged 19/5/5 on 51TS for his past two rings..

Kobe averaged 28/7/5 on 53TS for his 01 and 02 rings while leading the NBA in playoff fourth quarter scoring..


The numbers for their sidekick titles right now are not close. And Wade doesnt have near the same success as a first option(3 straight Finals and B2B championships>one title)

He also doesnt have near the longevity or overall career numbers.. accolades also are not currently close.

[moe94]

Wade has averaged 19/5/5 on 51TS for his past two rings..

Kobe averaged 28/7/5 on 53TS for his 01 and 02 rings while leading the NBA in playoff fourth quarter scoring..


The numbers for their sidekick titles right now are not close. And Wade doesnt have near the same success as a first option(3 straight Finals and B2B championships>one title)

He also doesnt have near the longevity or overall career numbers.. accolades also are not currently close.

I guess my post is unneeded. Good shit.

Also, is Wade going to get better or worse from here on out?

[tpols]

I guess my post is unneeded. Good shit.

Also, is Wade going to get better or worse from here on out?

obviously hes getting worse.. he saves himself for key games/moments which really helps miami out, but doesnt do much for his own legacy because he has little chance of putting up big numbers or winning FMVP.

[aj1987]

Kobe scored 8 points more than Wade, while taking nearly 7 MORE shots and 2 MORE FT's than Wade. Last seasons playoff run, with his injuries destroyed his stats, but he did have a really good '12 PO (he was injured in '12 as well, BTW).

[Kiddlovesnets]

It will be close, Kobe has 2 rings as alpha while Wade has 1, so theoretically Wade needs more rings than Kobe to be compared with him. Its not Wade's fault though, they could've won in 2011 but Lebron screwed up. However, Wade's role in this Heat team was much more important than Shaq Lakers, which was pretty much Shaq's one man show. For this reason, it will be comparable for sure.

[chazzy]

(he was injured in '12 as well, BTW).
Kobe had the same injury in 2010

[tpols]

Kobe scored 8 points more than Wade, while taking nearly 7 MORE shots and 2 MORE FT's than Wade. Last seasons playoff run, with his injuries destroyed his stats, but he did have a really good '12 PO (he was injured in '12 as well, BTW).

He scored 8 more points on better TS.. Kobe was more efficient and on way higher volume.. theres no way you can spin it really.

I could also bring up how league wide efficiencies were down because 00-04 era allowed more physicality, and LA faced better defensive rated opponents but that would be overkill


Its simply not close for the rings they have won.. Kobe had way more impact.

If Heat won in 2011 it would be slightly closer but even then Kobe still had better numbers and was more clutch.. Wade didnt do anything to close 4ths in the 2011 Finals.. him AND bran went missing but only bron got flack for his lack of crunchtime scoring.

[kennethgriffin]

Lol hes got 0 mvps and 2 first team all nba's


Rings are tie breakers between similar indivuduals

Wade never lasted as a #1 guy. 2 year prime... Meh


Great kickstand though. Best case he ends up like top 20 assuming he wins 6-7 rings

[sportjames23]

for me, if he wins only five i would have say no. but if he wins six while putting up better than average stats to win those championships, then i would say yes.

discuss.


If he gets six, wouldn't that make him better than Lebron, too? Bran will still be a ring short of Wade doe.

[kennethgriffin]

If he gets six, wouldn't that make him better than Lebron, too? Bran will still be a ring short of Wade doe.


Only lebrons fmvps/mvps/1st teams count silly

Kobes dont

[Keno]

ummm lebron would have 7 mvps 5 rings and 5 finals mvp. a mixture of 7 mvps and 5 finals mvp would be the reason he is better than kobe and wade.

[Warfan]

No, unless he somehow ends up with more FMVPs (even then it's doubtful) which isnt going to happen

[aj1987]

He scored 8 more points on better TS.. Kobe was more efficient and on way higher volume.. theres no way you can spin it really.
I was just stating facts. Kobe needed 7 shots and 2 FT's more than Wade to score 8 more points.


I could also bring up how league wide efficiencies were down because 00-04 era allowed more physicality, and LA faced better defensive rated opponents but that would be overkill
I could also bring up the fact that Kobe played with a top 5 GOAT and performed significantly worse in the Finals, compared to the previous rounds, but that would be overkill.


Its simply not close for the rings they have won.. Kobe had way more impact.

If Heat won in 2011 it would be slightly closer but even then Kobe still had better numbers and was more clutch.. Wade didnt do anything to close 4ths in the 2011 Finals.. him AND bran went missing but only bron got flack for his lack of crunchtime scoring.
Wade scored 7.3 points on 56% in the 4th quarters of the 2011 Finals. That's about 30% of his total scoring. He did this while trying to get LeBron involved in the offensive schemes and trying to get him going.

Stop being such an insecure little bitch all the time. I NEVER said Wade would be higher than Kobe all time even with 5 rings. He won't. I was just trying to point out that TS% in this case is a bit misleading, relating to their efficiencies.

[red1]

Career wise he cant catch-up, its practically impossible. Being top ten GOAT requires a lot of luck. If dwade had a better team from 08-11 and grabbed an mvp or if he grabbed the fmvp in 2011 then he wouldve had a slim shot

[tpols]

I was just stating facts. Kobe needed 7 shots and 2 FT's more than Wade to score 8 more points.

Kobe was more efficient in his sidekick rings. Fact. Wade shot 51TS.. thats basically a point per shot.. so even if we assumed Wade would score on the same efficiency at a much higher volume, he would need those 8 possesions(7 shots + 2 FTs) to score the 8-9 extra points.

Of course he has less assists and rebounds per game as well.. and nowhere near the crunctime numbers..

19/5/5 51TS versus 28/7/5 53TS.. these numbers are not close:confusedshrug:




I could also bring up the fact that Kobe played with a top 5 GOAT and performed significantly worse in the Finals, compared to the previous rounds, but that would be overkill.

So did Wade.. Bran will surely finish top 5 GOAT and ahead of Shaq by the time he retires. He will end with just as many if not more titles as the man, more accolades, triple the MVPs etc. So that argument actually works against you.

Wade only performed exceptional in 2011 Finals and even then they dont stack up to the defensive opponents LA faced in their Finals

2011 Mavs D-Rating: 105
2000 Pacers D-Rating: 103.6
2001 Sixers D-Rating: 98.9
2002 Nets D-Rating: 99.5

And this was in a tougher defensive era.

Of course Lakers toughest tests were out west as the East was generally weaker back then and had to rely on slow grind it out defensive strategy similar to what current pacers/bulls employ to compensate for lack of talent. So when put into perspective, the earlier rounds were actually more critical for Kobe to have played well in if LA wanted to win.






Wade scored 7.3 points on 56% in the 4th quarters of the 2011 Finals. That's about 30% of his total scoring. He did this while trying to get LeBron involved in the offensive schemes and trying to get him going.

Stop being such an insecure little bitch all the time. I NEVER said Wade would be higher than Kobe all time even with 5 rings. He won't. I was just trying to point out that TS% in this case is a bit misleading, relating to their efficiencies.

Its not misleading at all.. Wade has shot on poor efficiency the past two years. Kobe's efficiency was mediocre.. not bad but not great. It was however better than Wade's.. and the fact that it was done on much higher volume makes it a a moot point anyway.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Career wise he cant catch-up, its practically impossible. Being top ten GOAT requires a lot of luck. If dwade had a better team from 08-11 and grabbed an mvp or if he grabbed the fmvp in 2011 then he wouldve had a slim shot
Dude, even discounting his injury in 2007 that derailed an MVP season. Or his 2008 that was wasted on a bad roster, with even more injuries.

If Wade had happened to snag a very deserving MVP award in 2009, and LeBron doesn't choke in the 2011 Finals, allowing Wade to get his rightfully earned Finals MVP

You're looking at:
4x champion
MVP
2x Finals MVP

That would be right on par accolade wise with Kobe Bryant.

[tpols]

Dude, even discounting his injury in 2007 that derailed an MVP season. Or his 2008 that was wasted on a bad roster, with even more injuries.

If Wade had happened to snag a very deserving MVP award in 2009, and LeBron doesn't choke in the 2011 Finals, allowing Wade to get his rightfully earned Finals MVP

You're looking at:
4x champion
MVP
2x Finals MVP

That would be right on par accolade wise with Kobe Bryant.

Dwayne Wade has finished top five MVP voting just 2 times in his career..

Kobe has finished top five 11 times.. in a row.


One hypothetical MVP doesnt make up that difference..

[red1]

Dude, even discounting his injury in 2007 that derailed an MVP season. Or his 2008 that was wasted on a bad roster, with even more injuries.

If Wade had happened to snag a very deserving MVP award in 2009, and LeBron doesn't choke in the 2011 Finals, allowing Wade to get his rightfully earned Finals MVP

You're looking at:
4x champion
MVP
2x Finals MVP

That would be right on par accolade wise with Kobe Bryant.
Yeah man. The last two championships boosted his ranking over many players but its just not the same as a fmvp

[funnystuff]

Hold up, don't people always say Kobe should never be classed as great because he supposedly rode Shaq's coat tails to his first 3 rings?

If so, Wade should never be considered greater or even in the same sentence because the same rule should apply, it can be said he rode Shaq and LeBron's coat tails to the rings he has now.

Fair is fair
:biggums: Nobody says that.

But Wade is more important to the Heat than Kobe was to Shaq's Lakers.

[aj1987]

Kobe was more efficient in his sidekick rings. Fact. Wade shot 51TS.. thats basically a point per shot.. so even if we assumed Wade would score on the same efficiency at a much higher volume, he would need those 8 possesions(7 shots + 2 FTs) to score the 8-9 extra points.

Of course he has less assists and rebounds per game as well.. and nowhere near the crunctime numbers..

19/5/5 51TS versus 28/7/5 53TS.. these numbers are not close:confusedshrug:
Again, I don't know why you insist on bring up those numbers. They aren't even close and I agree with. When did I ever say otherwise?!



So did Wade.. Bran will surely finish top 5 GOAT and ahead of Shaq by the time he retires. He will end with just as many if not more titles as the man, more accolades, triple the MVPs etc. So that argument actually works against you.
Don't give a shit. Wade has literally 0 chance of surpassing Kobe, career wise. Unless Wade finds the fountain of youth and wins 1 MVP and 2 FMVP's, he's not gonna be ranked above Kobe.


Wade only performed exceptional in 2011 Finals and even then they dont stack up to the defensive opponents LA faced in their Finals

2011 Mavs D-Rating: 105
2000 Pacers D-Rating: 103.6
2001 Sixers D-Rating: 98.9
2002 Nets D-Rating: 99.5

And this was in a tougher defensive era.

Of course Lakers toughest tests were out west as the East was generally weaker back then and had to rely on slow grind it out defensive strategy similar to what current pacers/bulls employ to compensate for lack of talent. So when put into perspective, the earlier rounds were actually more critical for Kobe to have played well in if LA wanted to win.
Are we gonna ignore the fact that he played against the '11 Celtics, the '12 Pacers, Knicks, and Celtics, who all had D-Rtg's, between 98 and 103? Or the Spurs who had a 101 and OKC, who had a 103 D-Rtg?



Its not misleading at all.. Wade has shot on poor efficiency the past two years. Kobe's efficiency was mediocre.. not bad but not great. It was however better than Wade's.. and the fact that it was done on much higher volume makes it a a moot point anyway.
Wade actually did shoot at a pretty decent clip the past 2 seasons. TS% takes FT shooting into account. Kobe got more FT's and hence the better TS%. FG% wise, Wade was better. He shot 46%. Wade took 17 shots (6 FT's) to score 20 points and Kobe took 23 shots (8 FT's) to score 28 points.

[red1]

Dwayne Wade has finished top five MVP voting just 2 times in his career..

Kobe has finished top five 11 times.. in a row.


One hypothetical MVP doesnt make up that difference..
Dwade is underrated. Now he is a shell of what of he was and will never catch kobe in the rankings but Ive seen both players play and dwade is the better player

[tpols]

Dwade is underrated. Now he is a shell of what of he was and will never catch kobe in the rankings but Ive seen both players play and dwade is the better player

I have seen them both as well.. and totally disagree. It is your opinion, however.. just wont be much to back it up.

[red1]

I have seen them both as well.. and totally disagree. It is your opinion, however.. just wont be much to back it up.
Yeah. No way of proving it but believe me I would put money on it

[FPJ]

I'm not gonna say who the better player was (they were pretty close in their primes) but im gonna state the obvious...Kobe had one of the luckiest carriers while Wade had one of the unluckiest. Im not trying to put down players, but a healthy Wade would have been amazing and im 90% sure he would have knocked on the Top 10 door.

[tpols]

I'm not gonna say who the better player was (they were pretty close in their primes) but im gonna state the obvious...Kobe had one of the luckiest carriers while Wade had one of the unluckiest. Im not trying to put down players, but a healthy Wade would have been amazing and im 90% sure he would have knocked on the Top 10 door.

Have you ever thought Wade's style of play would lend him to being more injury prone? Wade slashes and seeks out contact all game long.. Kobe does it as a last resort if his move failed, but is generally a jump shooter/finesse player.


If Kobe went hard to the basket every play and never settled, hed break down too.. instead he relied on a more polished, skill based game which may have been less efficient, but it allowed him to be dominant for a much much longer time.. similar to how MJ played after he no longer had the athleticism. Wade never polished his game to that level. Wades jumper goes MIA all the time and teams were flat out giving him jumpers in last years playoffs.


At some point youre going to have to give Kobe credit for perfecting his craft and lose this luck bullshit.

[FPJ]

Have you ever thought Wade's style of play would lend him to being more injury prone? Wade slashes and seeks out contact all game long.. Kobe does it as a last resort if his move failed, but is generally a jump shooter/finesse player.


If Kobe went hard to the basket every play and never settled, hed break down too.. instead he relied on a more polished, skill based game which may have been less efficient, but it allowed him to be dominant for a much much longer time.. similar to how MJ played after he no longer had the athleticism. Wade never polished his game to that level. Wades jumper goes MIA all the time and teams were flat out giving him jumpers in last years playoffs.


At some point youre going to have to give Kobe credit for perfecting his craft and lose this luck bullshit.


1st one, 2005 playoffs (second year). Its bad luck if you ask me


The Heat's playoff run was stopped by the Detroit Pistons, the previous season's champions, in 7 games in the Eastern Conference Finals. Wade scored 42 and 36 points in Games 2 and 3 respectively despite playing with sinusitis, the flu, and a knee strain. He also suffered a strained rib muscle in Game 5 of the Conference Finals that prevented him from playing in the series' sixth game[20] and limited him in the seventh.The Heat lost the series in the seventh game despite leading three games to two after the fifth game and holding a lead with three minutes remaining in Game 7

Shoulder injury.


February 21, 2007, while attempting to steal the ball from Shane Battier, Wade dislocated his left shoulder.After missing 23 games to recover from the injury, Wade returned to the active roster.



Following the playoffs, Wade underwent a pair of successful surgeries to repair his dislocated left shoulder and left knee. The knee ailment, commonly called "jumper's knee", prevented Wade from joining USA Basketball in the Olympic Qualifying Tournament over the summer

Wade was early in his career, you cant attribute the injuries to excessive use, not to mention he injured himself in some of the most bad timing situations.

[hahaitme]

Career wise, I think Kobe is going to have the better accolades. Any rings Wade wins from this point out I can't really see him getting FMVP for. But that's because he's playing with LeBron.

In saying that, I also think Wade is going to be healthy come playoffs time. They're managing him well and it feels like his condition is only getting better and better over time. I expect him to come in hard especially if they end up meeting OKC in the finals.

[Lordsteven]

he'd have to win at least the same amount, if not more, FMVP to be considered better than kobe.

[fpliii]

1st one, 2005 playoffs (second year). Its bad luck if you ask me



Shoulder injury.






Wade was early in his career, you cant attribute the injuries to excessive use, not to mention he injured himself in some of the most bad timing situations.
Pretty much. Removing the meniscus from his knee in college was also a bad call, whoever gave him advice made his career path much more difficult.

[theoneneo]

Wade has averaged 19/5/5 on 51TS for his past two rings..

Kobe averaged 28/7/5 on 53TS for his 01 and 02 rings while leading the NBA in playoff fourth quarter scoring..


The numbers for their sidekick titles right now are not close. And Wade doesnt have near the same success as a first option(3 straight Finals and B2B championships>one title)

He also doesnt have near the longevity or overall career numbers.. accolades also are not currently close.

Funny how Kobe's sidekick numbers are on par with Lebron' s first option numbers :rolleyes:

[Prometheus]

Wade is already ranked higher than Kobe, just check the official GOAT rankings.

[atljonesbro]

Maybe. Prime Wade was definitely better than Prime Kobe and easily had the most dominant finals performance, arguably the greatest ever, between the 2.

[theoneneo]

Maybe. Prime Wade was definitely better than Prime Kobe and easily had the most dominant finals performance, arguably the greatest ever, between the 2.

Lol 06 wade had the most dominant finals perfomance? :lol

Have you seen Shaq play? Jordan first 3 peat were all better.

[houston]

no

[FaceBack]

Maybe. Prime Wade was definitely better than Prime Kobe and easily had the most dominant finals performance, arguably the greatest ever, between the 2.

Prime Wade was a flash in the pan. He is a product of the new look NBA, carrying, walking, bail out whistles, relying on athleticism, his style is more appealing which is why the NBA adopted this style of play after MJ retired. Not to mention Wade is one of the dirtiest players out there. Everyone hates on Kobe for actually developing skills that could translate to any era of the NBA.

[Mass Debator]

If he wins 5 with another FMVP with Lebron on the team, yes, I'd put him over my man Kobe. If not, he'd have to win 6 producing at around 20/5/5 on his usual percentages all throughout. If he has another postseason like last year, he has absolutely no shot at being over Kobe even if he wins 7.

[Solefade]

doubtful...he'd have to play a lot better than he has the last two playoff runs.

I love Wade...and would take him peak vs peak over Kobe, but Kobe was great in 01, 02, 09, and 10.....for four of his 5 titles

Wade was great in 06, but wasn't as good as Kobe was in any of the above 4 in 12 and 13.

So it matters not just winning with stacked teams...it matters how you play as well. At least Kobe was still beasting with Shaq...Wade was a shell in 13 and good but not great in 12.


you don't think 06 wade was better than any version of Kobe's playoff/finals?

also 11 wade > 04 kobe