What if the Mavs had stayed together?

[sportjames23]

What if Cuban didn't go the cheap route and kept the Mavs together? Would Bran have any rings?

[navy]

The Heat would have beaten them the next year. If they had made it back to the Finals anyways.

[Teanett]

yes.

[AnaheimLakers24]

no he wouldnt. also for this year id prefer usa vs germany again. if its mia vs okc durcant will just be a beta bit.ch and let bron abuse him.

[SilkkTheShocker]

What if Cuban didn't go the cheap route and kept the Mavs together? Would Bran have any rings?

You really think the Mavs had a chance to 3peat? :oldlol:

[TexasBloodMoney]

Terry is done, Chandler is injury-prone, D. Stevenson is out of the league, and Barea is trash. No, Cuban should not have paid them and even if the Mavs aren't a top seed right now, at least they have flexibility unlike the New York teams right now.

I mean, were people even sure they would win a chip that year? They got hot in the playoffs but there wasn't much of a guarantee that they would be able to re-create that magic again.

[Rooster]

What if Cuban didn't go the cheap route and kept the Mavs together? Would Bran have any rings?

Cuban was smart because in essence, that year was a magical run. After years of disappointments and choke jobs, basketball gods finally smiled at them. Cuban knows business and he will not bet 70 plus mil and roll the dice hoping for another stroke of luck.

[R.I.P.]

Mavs lost 4-0 to the Finals Thunder next seassn, but they were beaten by buzzerbeaters in two games, and lead by 10 in the 4th quarter of another game. That

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=R.I.P.]Mavs lost 4-0 to the Finals Thunder next seassn, but they were beaten by buzzerbeaters in two games, and lead by 10 in the 4th quarter of another game. That

[DMAVS41]

Cuban was smart because in essence, that year was a magical run. After years of disappointments and choke jobs, basketball gods finally smiled at them. Cuban knows business and he will not bet 70 plus mil and roll the dice hoping for another stroke of luck.

I'm interested to know what "Years" of choke jobs you are talking about other than 07.

We actually went as far or farther in the playoffs more often than underachieving.

The two years we did not meet or exceed expectations in the playoffs were 07 and 10. 07 of course was a legit disaster and was awful...but even in 10 we lost to a Spurs team that won 5 less games than us and Tony Parker was injured for like 30 games that season...and he was healthy against us. Hard to call that dissapointing or an upset...just two even teams playing against each other.

This myth about the Mavs is really annoying

01 - upset the Jazz and advanced farther than expected
02 - dominated what was supposed to be a near 50/50 series against the KG led Wolves and then lost to the much better 02 Kings
03 - Made the WCF and Dirk got hurt in game 3
04 - Lost to the better Kings
05 - Lost to the better Suns
06 - Upset the Spurs in round 2 as underdogs and won a road game 07...advancing farther than expected
08...lost to the better Hornets
09...upset the Spurs
10...technically under-achieved, but total toss up series with Parker back
11....huge underdog won the title
12....lost to the better Thunder

What you and others speak of just never happened. It's a complete myth. The only true issue for the entire Mavs playoffs of this era was the 07 series...that's it. Everything else has been either as good or better than expected.

[cos88]

hey people lebron played bad + the heat played arroyo, dampier, big z, james jones, joel anthony, mike bibby, eddie house, dexter pitman and jamal magloire and they were down 2-3 with 2 games at home just like last year.


not to mention dirk was at his absolute peak.

dallas would not reach the finals and if they do they'll lose just like the thuder 4-1.

can't belive chicago with HCA lost 1-4 vs this team with so many scrubs.

[SCdac]

Yeah, should have kept them together as much as possible. Instead it was the typical revolving door of player the Mavs are so accustomed to.

After decades of never winning a championship they finally have the right pieces (Chandler won DPOY the following season), and Cuban insults said pieces by offering 1 year deals... to chase non-commital, bitch ass Dwight Howard :oldlol:

Whether they actually win back-to-back championships is not the point. That's always a toss up. The point is to try for it.

[DMAVS41]

Yeah, should have kept them together as much as possible. Instead it was the typical revolving door of player the Mavs are so accustomed to.

After decades of never winning a championship they finally have the right pieces (Chandler won DPOY the following season), and Cuban insults said pieces by offering 1 year deals... to chase non-commital, bitch ass Dwight Howard :oldlol:

Whether they actually win back-to-back championships is not the point. That's always a toss up. The point is to try for it.

Nah, totally wrong as usual. You bring players back if they are worth it. Chandler isn't worth 15 million a year. Jesus man...just look at his impact on the Knicks...absolutely nothing. One playoff series win and now they might miss the playoffs this year because he's injured/sucks.

You bring guys back if it's reasonable that you might win it all again...and it wasn't reasonable at all. The Mavs were going to get worse no matter what with guys just naturally declining and getting older...not being hot...etc.

While teams like the Thunder and Spurs were just getting better.

It's been a revolving door in Dallas at times because we haven't been able to get great players around Dirk...we've only been able to get good players.

Like I said above...you really want to bring everyone back on long term deals to make a run in 12 that would have been even more improbable than 11? And then sacrifice any chance over the next 3 years to either be good or build for the future????

Makes no sense.

I can't believe people still prop up Chandler so much. Our defense in 2012 was just as good without him...LOL

[Darius]

TBH even the ring they did one was due to a good deal of luck.

[DMAVS41]

hey people lebron played bad + the heat played arroyo, dampier, big z, james jones, joel anthony, mike bibby, eddie house, dexter pitman and jamal magloire and they were down 2-3 with 2 games at home just like last year.


not to mention dirk was at his absolute peak.

dallas would not reach the finals and if they do they'll lose just like the thuder 4-1.

can't belive chicago with HCA lost 1-4 vs this team with so many scrubs.


LOL...such revisionist history about the Heat.

The 11 Heat had the 3rd best offense and 5th best defense in the regular season...and they had all three of the big 3 playing at prime/peak levels in the playoffs

They dominated the very good Bulls and Celtics...going 8-2 in those two series.

It all fell apart against the Mavs. And it was because Lebron choked...

The 11 Heat in the playoffs were the best team of the group. 13 was easily the worst...and 12 was probably the best when healthy, but Bosh wasn't healthy and missed serious time and Wade had regressed.

There wasn't some flaw in the 11 Heat like Lebron stans want...they were the most balanced Heat team in terms of impact on both ends...again (3rd best offense and 5th best defense)...and had an elite Wade

Total myth...

[DMAVS41]

TBH even the ring they did one was due to a good deal of luck.

Very true. They earned it and played their asses of and they get credit for it, but that run is not even remotely likely to be repeated out of anyone...the only guy capable of playing at a similar level again would be Dirk...and even that is asking a lot for an older player going through an offseason in which he thought there was not going to be a season...and then a shortened regular season with a ton of back to backs...

The Mavs had 16 of their 21 playoff games enter crunch time in 11. That means in 16 games...the game was within 5 points with less than 5 minutes left at some point...

The margin of error was incredibly small for the Mavs. People ignoring that and acting like it was likely to be repeated are just ignorant to reality.

[kentatm]

Nah, totally wrong as usual. You bring players back if they are worth it. Chandler isn't worth 15 million a year. Jesus man...just look at his impact on the Knicks...absolutely nothing. One playoff series win and now they might miss the playoffs this year because he's injured/sucks.

You bring guys back if it's reasonable that you might win it all again...and it wasn't reasonable at all. The Mavs were going to get worse no matter what with guys just naturally declining and getting older...not being hot...etc.

While teams like the Thunder and Spurs were just getting better.

It's been a revolving door in Dallas at times because we haven't been able to get great players around Dirk...we've only been able to get good players.

Like I said above...you really want to bring everyone back on long term deals to make a run in 12 that would have been even more improbable than 11? And then sacrifice any chance over the next 3 years to either be good or build for the future????

Makes no sense.

I can't believe people still prop up Chandler so much. Our defense in 2012 was just as good without him...LOL

People never seem to realize that before Dallas got him Chandler was viewed as done. At the time Dallas traded for him he was penciled in as the backup C and was really just a way to extend Dampiers expiring contract for potential trades or cap space clearence. Never mind that it wasn't so much that Dallas had Chandler but that they had TWO solid defensive bigs with Haywood as the backup.

Cuban has always said that if the old CBA had remained in place he would have kept them together b/c the big expiring contracts would still have value. As soon as the going over the cap became so putative it made little sense to overpay for a bunch of guys that were all relatively replaceable.

The big mistake was assuming Lamar Odom would be a professional. Had Dallas known he would so badly flake out they would have replaced Chandler with somebody else and would have had a much better team.

I don't think people realize just how bad Odom ****ed the Mavs rebuild over. The **** head lived across the street from the AAC and still couldn't show up to practice or games on time.

[DMAVS41]

People never seem to realize that before Dallas got him Chandler was viewed as done. At the time Dallas traded for him he was penciled in as the backup C and was really just a way to extend Dampiers expiring contract for potential trades or cap space clearence. Never mind that it wasn't so much that Dallas had Chandler but that they had TWO solid defensive bigs with Haywood as the backup.

Cuban has always said that if the old CBA had remained in place he would have kept them together b/c the big expiring contracts would still have value. As soon as the going over the cap became so putative it made little sense to overpay for a bunch of guys that were all relatively replaceable.

The big mistake was assuming Lamar Odom would be a professional. Had Dallas known he would so badly flake out they would have replaced Chandler with somebody else and would have had a much better team.

I don't think people realize just how bad Odom ****ed the Mavs rebuild over. The **** head lived across the street from the AAC and still couldn't show up to practice or games on time.


Well said. Completely agree on all fronts.

I keep trying to explain this to people. We had the 8th best defense in 11...and the 8th best defense in 12. Haywood, Mahinmi, and Wright gave us like 90% of the impact at center that we got in 11.

It was actually our offense that fell off in 12...and yes, Chandler's picks and his flashes to the hoop helped our offense, but not enough to explain the huge drop off.

It was a group of older guys having to play through a brutal schedule dealing with an offseason in which Cuban told them there likely was going to be no season.

And then, the real kicker, as you point out...Lamar Odom ****ed us. If he plays normal or we get someone else...we are just as good or better than if we had signed Chandler.

That is the part everyone ignores. We can blame Cuban and Nellie...or not...I don't really care about that part of the Odom disaster. The point is...they built a really good team that kept the future open...and Lamar Odom took a giant dump on it.

Sucks...

Also, we offered Chandler 20 million for 1 year to stay and he turned it down. Like you said, before coming to the Mavs...he couldn't even find a team for his horrid contract. The Thunder laughed at him. He was an overpaid and over-rated center that nobody wanted and nobody wanted as a starter. Then we offer him 20 million for one year and it's the Mavs that were disrespectful to him???? No...we just knew how good he actually was....and were willing to go all in for 1 year and then figure it out. And he wasn't willing to do it. Don't blame, but is what it is. The sick thing? Chandler actually would have made a ton more money by doing that...because he played well in 12...so he would have gotten his 20 million...and then signed a 4 year max with someone else...or maybe Cuban would have been sold enough to sign him in Dallas to even more.

Not taking that 20 million in Dallas is going to ultimately cost Chandler like 15 to 20 million at least...LOL

[SCdac]

Odom didn't bring any of the championship-team qualities that Chandler brought to the Mavs (elite defense, shot blocking, rebounding per minute), even had he not been a bitch. Clearly Cuban was trying to bide time till Williams or Howard came to save the day, Odom was a stop-gap. Watching Cubes dismantle a championship team made me so glad Spurs were willing to resign key players, even low scorers like Bruce Bowen. Naturally, big men demand higher salaries. Pay the guy who helped make your front court formidable! Chandler's impact on the boards, offensive and defensive, was important. Tyson got grabbed more offensive rebounds than Duncan, KG, and Shaq did on some of their championship runs. He was no scrub despite the walls of texts Dirk nut huggers post.

Mavs relied on Lamar Odom :roll:

[DMAVS41]

Odom didn't bring any of the championship-team qualities that Chandler brought to the Mavs (elite defense, shot blocking, rebounding per minute), even had he not been a bitch. Clearly Cuban was trying to bide time till Williams or Howard came to save the day, Odom was a stop-gap. Watching Cubes dismantle a championship team made me so glad Spurs were willing to resign key players, even low scorers like Bruce Bowen. Naturally, big men demand higher salaries. Pay the guy who helped make your front court formidable! Chandler's impact on the boards, offensive and defensive, was important. Tyson got grabbed more offensive rebounds than Duncan, KG, and Shaq did on some of their championship runs. He was no scrub despite the walls of texts Dirk nut huggers post.

Mavs relied on Lamar Odom :roll:

Uhh...the Mavs defense stayed at 8th right where it was with Chandler. Mahinmi and Wright played very well...as did Haywood.

Lamar Odom had championship experience and had proven to be an excellent all around player on both ends on championship teams. In fact, Odom has a very similar rebound rate to Chandler.

You are arguing two separate points now though. The Mavs getting Odom is not directly related to the Chandler issue. Letting Chandler go is one thing...who we replaced him or who we used his money for is another.

Obviously signing Odom was wrong given the results, but that doesn't mean we should have kept Chandler.

That doesn't fit...

And you really need to stop with the straw men. Nobody is saying Chandler wasn't really good...or that we didn't need him. We are saying that you can't pay Chandler 15 million a year for 4 years in the new CBA with Dirk and Marion on the books for 31 million a year as well...and expect to win the title.

That is the point. He's not a star. He's not an all star. He's a solid 30 minutes a night defensive center...that is all.

How can you say all this shit about Chandler after what he's done for the Knicks????? Dude has been awful overall there now. Injured this year...sucked the last two years in the playoffs...

I mean...do people really think the Mavs are winning the title in 12 with Chandler's 6 points 9 rebounds on 49% TS that he gave the Knicks in the playoffs? :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Oh...and the Knicks are 11-22 with Chandler this year...and 10-14 without him.

[R.I.P.]

TBH even the ring they did one was due to a good deal of luck.

Nobody beats LMA, Kobe, Gasol, Bynum, Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka, Bron, Wade and Bosh with luck. :rolleyes: They also only lost five games.

[DMAVS41]

Nobody beats LMA, Kobe, Gasol, Bynum, Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka, Bron, Wade and Bosh with luck. :rolleyes: They also only lost five games.

He doesn't mean it like that.

He mean that the Mavs team and players just played amazing and it wasn't likely to be repeated. Not that they "got lucky" in terms of they didn't deserve to win or something.

And I agree with that. The Mavs deserved the title maybe more than any team I can remember given the difficult road and how outmatched the team was in terms of raw talent...

But to act like it was expected or likely to be repeated is another thing.

I don't think he's saying that Dirk or Terry were lucky to make all the shots they did or something. I think he's just saying that they had a run that was unreal given the team strength.

[Lamar Odumbb]

Chandler was a huge loss. He was basically the Mavs Ben Wallace. Imagine the Pistons with no D Rasheed and Lazy Elden Campbell at Center.

[SCdac]

Nobody beats LMA, Kobe, Gasol, Bynum, Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka, Bron, Wade and Bosh with luck. :rolleyes: They also only lost five games.

Yeah clearly the Mavs were the best team in the league in 2011, nobody could stop them. It took some time, development of players, and great team chemistry (like all championship teams) to make it happen, but they were the best. Definitely not a fluke. Hell, don't even think it was Dirk's absolute prime necessarily yet the Mavs still looked great with their deep team.

[DMAVS41]

Chandler was a huge loss. He was basically the Mavs Ben Wallace. Imagine the Pistons with no D Rasheed and Lazy Elden Campbell at Center.

How did the Mavs manage to have a better defensive rating the next year and rank the exact same defensively in terms of where they were in the league then?

2011 Mavs - 105 defensive rating (8th best in league)

2012 Mavs - 102.3 defensive rating (8th best in league)

[SCdac]

Chandler was a huge loss. He was basically the Mavs Ben Wallace. Imagine the Pistons with no D Rasheed and Lazy Elden Campbell at Center.

Not to mention Dirk largely credited Chandler for changing the defensive culture. Goes beyond stats, it's his energy, drive, emotion, holding players accountable, and more. Tyson was the final piece to the puzzle essentially

[DMAVS41]

Yeah clearly the Mavs were the best team in the league in 2011, nobody could stop them. It took some time, development of players, and great team chemistry (like all championship teams) to make it happen, but they were the best. Definitely not a fluke. Hell, don't even think it was Dirk's absolute prime necessarily yet the Mavs still looked great with their deep team.

It was because on Terry alone it was just that. Not likely to be repeated at all.

[DMAVS41]

Not to mention Dirk largely credited Chandler for changing the defensive culture. Goes beyond stats, it's his energy, drive, emotion, holding players accountable, and more. Tyson was the final piece to the puzzle essentially

Yet somehow that defensive culture stayed when Chandler left.

Isn't it odd that a team actually gets slightly better defensively when the guy you claim made the defense what it was...leaves?

Does that really not give you some pause?

Does it really not give you pause to see the utter disaster that the Knicks with Chandler have been?

[SCdac]

Yet somehow that defensive culture stayed when Chandler left.

Isn't it odd that a team actually gets slightly better defensively when the guy you claim made the defense what it was...leaves?

Does that really not give you some pause?

Does it really not give you pause to see the utter disaster that the Knicks with Chandler have been?

What gives me pause is the Mavs getting swept out of the first round and missing the playoffs entirely since their championship season :roll:

[SCdac]

What gives me pause is the Mavs getting swept out of the first round and missing the playoffs entirely since their championship season :roll:

In the final years of Dirk's career, might I add

[Lamar Odumbb]

How did the Mavs manage to have a better defensive rating the next year and rank the exact same defensively in terms of where they were in the league then?

2011 Mavs - 105 defensive rating (8th best in league)

2012 Mavs - 102.3 defensive rating (8th best in league)

Defensive ratings are useless because other teams couldve lost their best defender or had multiple changes as well.

Lakers defensive rating was better with Pau in 2008 than with Shaq in 2001 which was was 21 out of 30.

The reality is the Mavs needed Chandler because they were a half court defensive minded team like the old 80's Celtics Carlisle based his coaching philosophy on.

[comerb]

Mavs weren't even the best team in the league the year they won the chip... They just got ridiculously hot at the right time.

[kentatm]

Not to mention Dirk largely credited Chandler for changing the defensive culture. Goes beyond stats, it's his energy, drive, emotion, holding players accountable, and more. Tyson was the final piece to the puzzle essentially


Dirk always heaps praise on his teammates while deflecting credit from himself.

He won't even talk badly about slugs like Shawn Bradley, Antoine Walker, or Lamar Odom.

Again, the Mavs energy on defense was fine in 12. They just couldn't score efficiently enough to beat the better teams. Terry had a poor year, Kidd fell off a cliff, Odom was such a void that it was better to play without him, and Dirk got hurt and was never himself offensively.

[russwest0]

They would have lost to OKC in 2012.

[SCdac]

Mavs weren't even the best team in the league the year they won the chip... They just got ridiculously hot at the right time.

They were only 3 wins away from a 60-win season and dominated in the playoffs. They had the same record as the defending champs (lakers) and swept them out of the playoffs. Maybe not one of the strongest championship teams of the past 20 years, but certainly the best team that season. Keep in mind, Lebron was punk'able and definitely got punked by the Marion, Stevenson, and crew.

[DMAVS41]

Defensive ratings are useless because other teams couldve lost their best defender or had multiple changes as well.

Lakers defensive rating was better with Pau in 2008 than with Shaq in 2001 which was was 21 out of 30.

The reality is the Mavs needed Chandler because they were a half court defensive minded team like the old 80's Celtics Carlisle based his coaching philosophy on.

Nah, it's not useless at all. You'd have to see something tangible to make the claims people are here about Chandler.

The truth is that he's a player that is good, but not great. Not worth his contract...and can only thrive in certain situations. And the Mavs had three guys at center that could make up like 90% or so of what Chandler ultimately provided.

And the truth is even worse than that for the pro Chandler guys...because the Mavs didn't even replace him like we though we were. We got nothing from Odom. If we actually got real production out of a player there...our team would have been even better defensively.

Of course the Mavs would have been better with Chandler. Who is arguing against that? I've yet to see anyone claim the Mavs would have been better off without Chandler and not replacing him.

The point is that the Mavs wouldn't have won with him...and our team right now would be much worse off. We would have missed the playoffs in 13 most likely...and we'd already be out of the playoff hunt this year given his injuries and sorry play. And we couldn't have gotten guys like Calderon and Ellis because we wouldn't have the cap room.

So not only would our future be worse, but our present would be worse as well.

Anyone saying that the Mavs just had the best team in 11 is ignorant or has an agenda. We got super hot. The only guy you could expect to play at a similar level in the playoffs the next year would have been Dirk...and even with an all time great like Dirk it would be asking a lot to come through in crunch time again and again.

Do people realize Dirk had the best clutch playoff run since early 90's Jordan? He averaged the most 4th qtr points on by far the best efficiency out of anyone since then? That his team desperately needed that because even with all the great play...we still had 16 of the 21 games enter crunch time...

Talk about a small margin of error.

So the Mavs are likely to regress...and evidence leads to the Thunder and Spurs being better. And we should bring back a bunch of old players on bad contracts so we can be maybe the 3rd best team in the conference????

LOL...no

I know Dirk haters like SCdac want the Mavs to have won off of defense, but it just wasn't true. We had by far the best offense in the playoffs and just an average defense. And we had Dirk and Terry come through when it mattered most. It was previously posted, but Terry's play declined rapidly in 12 on both ends...and without him playing great...we aren't winning. Hell, even with him playing great again we likely aren't winning it in 12.

[SCdac]

Dirk always heaps praise on his teammates while deflecting credit from himself.

He won't even talk badly about slugs like Shawn Bradley, Antoine Walker, or Lamar Odom.

Again, the Mavs energy on defense was fine in 12. They just couldn't score efficiently enough to beat the better teams. Terry had a poor year, Kidd fell off a cliff, Odom was such a void that it was better to play without him, and Dirk got hurt and was never himself offensively.

In this case, the praise was warranted.

There's something about Chandler that guys like Dalembert, Kaman, Dampier, etc, can't replicate, and it's not all stats. Many interviews at the time had Mavs players citing Chandler's defensive awareness and vocalness.

I respect your (difference of) opinion alot more than DMAVS I will say, as I think you're more of a Mavs fan than purely a Dirk fan.

Injuries and drop off in games are not always predictable or assumed to happen. Still have to bring back the best team on paper IMO. Especially since it was the first ever truly-winning model.

[Rooster]

I'm interested to know what "Years" of choke jobs you are talking about other than 07.

We actually went as far or farther in the playoffs more often than underachieving.

The two years we did not meet or exceed expectations in the playoffs were 07 and 10. 07 of course was a legit disaster and was awful...but even in 10 we lost to a Spurs team that won 5 less games than us and Tony Parker was injured for like 30 games that season...and he was healthy against us. Hard to call that dissapointing or an upset...just two even teams playing against each other.

This myth about the Mavs is really annoying

01 - upset the Jazz and advanced farther than expected
02 - dominated what was supposed to be a near 50/50 series against the KG led Wolves and then lost to the much better 02 Kings
03 - Made the WCF and Dirk got hurt in game 3
04 - Lost to the better Kings
05 - Lost to the better Suns
06 - Upset the Spurs in round 2 as underdogs and won a road game 07...advancing farther than expected
08...lost to the better Hornets
09...upset the Spurs
10...technically under-achieved, but total toss up series with Parker back
11....huge underdog won the title
12....lost to the better Thunder

What you and others speak of just never happened. It's a complete myth. The only true issue for the entire Mavs playoffs of this era was the 07 series...that's it. Everything else has been either as good or better than expected.

That's a perspective from Mavs fan point of view. I am not saying you're wrong but I guess when you're a following a franchise that won only one championship you tend to look for silver linings year after year. The choke jobs I was saying was when they had Miami and choke it away. And the following year when it looks like they gonna win it all and purposely lose to the Clips so they can play the Warriors only to be denied.

[DMAVS41]

In this case, the praise was warranted.

There's something about Chandler that guys like Dalembert, Kaman, Dampier, etc, can't replicate, and it's not all stats. Many interviews at the time had Mavs players citing Chandler's defensive awareness and vocalness.

I respect your (difference of) opinion alot more than DMAVS I will say, as I think you're more of a Mavs fan than purely a Dirk fan.

Injuries and drop off in games are not always predictable or assumed to happen. Still have to bring back the best team on paper IMO. Especially since it was the first ever truly-winning model.

They weren't the best team on paper you ignorant fool.

Jesus Christ...why the **** do you think they were 20 to 1 to win the title at the beginning of the playoffs?????

The best teams aren't 20 to 1 to in the title...

And nobody is saying that Dalembert, Kaman, and Dampier were as good as Chandler. Stop the straw man arguments...please. It's just embarrassing at this point for you.

[ProfessorMurder]

If the Mavs kept people, they would be what the Knicks are now. Just a string of bad contracts and hurt guys.

It took them out of the contender mode, but they'll be better again faster than if they hung on and kept the delusion of contending.

[ArbitraryWater]

What if Cuban didn't go the cheap route and kept the Mavs together? Would Bran have any rings?

LOL Imma Mavs Fan but even with TYSON CHANDLER (:rolleyes: ) they wouldn't have made it back to the Finals.

[DMAVS41]

That's a perspective from Mavs fan point of view. I am not saying you're wrong but I guess when you're a following a franchise that won only one championship you tend to look for silver linings year after year. The choke jobs I was saying was when they had Miami and choke it away. And the following year when it looks like they gonna win it all and purposely lose to the Clips so they can play the Warriors only to be denied.

Well, we agree about 07.

I don't see how that is a Mavs fan point of view. It's just factual.

I don't know how 06 can be seen as underachieving when they upset the Spurs to get out of the 2nd round to begin with.

So I don't follow that. In your thinking...the Mavs would have one less disappointing season if they had just lost to the title favored Spurs in the 2nd round like they were supposed to. Don't you think it's odd to penalize a team for overachieving to being with? So I don't see the logic in that.

I think most people (not saying you do)...get caught up in some false narrative about the Mavs. And it's not a perspective thing...it's a factual thing.

It's a simple fact that the Mavs overachieved in the playoffs more often...and the truth is that 07 was the only year we truly disappointed.

[SCdac]

If the Mavs kept people, they would be what the Knicks are now. Just a string of bad contracts and hurt guys.

It took them out of the contender mode, but they'll be better again faster than if they hung on and kept the delusion of contending.

maybe they avoided large contracts (by design) but Dirk turns 36 this year and the Mavs play for big name FA's was a huge failure.

[kentatm]

There's something about Chandler that guys like Dalembert, Kaman, Dampier, etc, can't replicate, and it's not all stats. Many interviews at the time had Mavs players citing Chandler's defensive awareness and vocalness.


:oldlol:

The Mavs rode Dampier to the NBA Finals. The main difference is Damp had to go up against a Shaq/Mourning combo while Chandler had Bosh and Joel Anthony.



And the following year when it looks like they gonna win it all and purposely lose to the Clips so they can play the Warriors only to be denied.


That is all on Avery for being an arrogant douche. :mad:

Golden State had given Dallas a ton of trouble for several years and was easily the Mavs worst match up.

By '07 Avery's ego issues were starting to get out of control and he just haaaaaad to prove himself against Nellie and all the naysayers who had been pointing out that GS kept beating Dallas badly in the regular season.

[DMAVS41]

maybe they avoided large contracts (by design) but Dirk turns 36 this year and the Mavs play for big name FA's was a huge failure.

but you don't know the future at the time.

so look at it his way in the moment;

option 1;

sign Chandler and bring everyone back for another couple runs in which at best you are the 3rd best team in your own conference if everything goes perfectly. you can't do anything with the roster until the summer of 2014...and even then you are hamstrung with Chandler's big contract. you will be old as **** and getting worse each year through the 2015 season.

the only year you have a chance at the title is 2012...and again..that is if everything goes perfectly and nobody gets hurt and declines. and even then it's going to be another 20 to 1 or so shot at it like 11 was.


option 2;

don't bring everyone back and sign guys on limited contracts and still have a very good team that leaves the future open for big stars and subtle improvements to the roster. even if we are slightly worse in 12 and 13...we have a brighter future

and again in 12...with the guys we signed and if Odom had not screwed us...we could have made another 11 type run...the pieces were there




Option 2 is obviously better. It just didn't work out as well as the Mavs wanted. But are still in a better place this year and going forward.

And I don't have an issue with it because winning in 12 or 13 would have been beyond a long shot no matter what we did.

[SCdac]

:oldlol:

The Mavs rode Dampier to the NBA Finals. The main difference is Damp had to go up against a Shaq/Mourning combo while Chandler had Bosh and Joel Anthony.

That was also when Dirk was 5 years younger, playing more minutes on average, and hovering around MVP status (he obviously won it the next season). Mavs had a two headed center of Damp and Diop, yet I'd still take Chandler over that any day. Couldn't ever seen them winning DPOY or being that kind of defender individually like Chandler. And give credit to Chandler for clogging the lane Lebron and Wade were supposed to be driving into.

[ProfessorMurder]

maybe they avoided large contracts (by design) but Dirk turns 36 this year and the Mavs play for big name FA's was a huge failure.

I'd rather be the Mavs now than if they landed D-Will and Dwight. Imagine how much of a mess that would be?

[DMAVS41]

:oldlol:

The Mavs rode Dampier to the NBA Finals. The main difference is Damp had to go up against a Shaq/Mourning combo while Chandler had Bosh and Joel Anthony.





That is all on Avery for being an arrogant douche. :mad:

Golden State had given Dallas a ton of trouble for several years and was easily the Mavs worst matchup.


They just don't get it. It just shows you how little people actually know about the Mavs. I love hearing how we couldn't do anything without Chandler. Just 10 straight 50 win season. Probably win the title in 03 (at least 50/50) with Dirk healthy. Make the finals in 06 with Damp. Win 67 in 07 with Damp.

I'm so god damn sick of every Mavs conversation being about the ****ing Warriors series.

The Warriors were a nightmare matchup with our former coach that played a terrible style for us, our coach was awful, Dirk's thought he might lose his dad and he was having major surgery in the middle of the series, and rumors of Dirk being hurt were swirling around Dallas the last month of the regular season

If there is ever a series that should be written off as an anomaly for a franchise and player...it's that 07 series.

[DMAVS41]

That was also when Dirk was 5 years younger, playing more minutes on average, and hovering around MVP status (he obviously won it the next season). Mavs had a two headed center of Damp and Diop, yet I'd still take Chandler over that any day. Couldn't ever seen them winning DPOY or being that kind of defender individually like Chandler. And give credit to Chandler for clogging the lane Lebron and Wade were supposed to be driving into.

We agree that Chandler is better though. Stop the straw man. His point is that we still made the finals with worse centers. And just a worse overall team actually in 06.

Jesus christ...if Terry/Dirk had played the finals in 06 as well as he did in 11...we win easily.

Why not focus on that? Terry alone man...he was awful in game 6 in 06...he plays great and we win like we did in 11.

You are ignoring so much...

[kentatm]

That was also when Dirk was 5 years younger, playing more minutes on average, and hovering around MVP status (he obviously won it the next season). Mavs had a two headed center of Damp and Diop, yet I'd still take Chandler over that any day. Couldn't ever seen them winning DPOY or being that kind of defender individually like Chandler. And give credit to Chandler for clogging the lane Lebron and Wade were supposed to be driving into.

Diop really gets a ton more credit than he deserves for '06. Dampier was the main defensive anchor and did the majority of the heavy lifting.

The main reason the Chandler/Haywood combo is better is b/c Haywood was simply a much better player than Diop.

On top of that, if either Chandler or Haywood got into foul trouble, the Mavs still had Mahinmi for spot minutes. The 06 Mavs had the ultra foul prone project center DJ Mbenga who was so raw they would often prefer to play Keith Van Horn out of position at the 5 spot. That would be like if the Mavs had to use Peja at C in the Finals against the Heat.

[DMAVS41]

Diop really gets a ton more credit than he deserves for '06. Dampier was the main defensive anchor and did the majority of the heavy lifting.

The main reason the Chandler/Haywood combo is better is b/c Haywood was simply a much better player than Diop.

On top of that, if either Chandler or Haywood got into foul trouble, the Mavs still had Mahinmi for spot minutes. The 06 Mavs had the ultra foul prone project center DJ Mbenga who was so raw they would often prefer to play Keith Van Horn out of position at the 5 spot. That would be like if the Mavs had to use Peja at C in the Finals against the Heat.

He's made up his mind.

He'll ignore Dirk and Terry clearly not playing as well in 06 as they did in 11.

The reason we lost the 06 finals was not because of our center play.

We lost for 3 main reasons;

1 - Avery Johnson is a ****ing terrible coach

2 - The rules made it impossible to stop Wade

3 - Dirk/Terry did not play as well as they should have

[SCdac]

I'd rather be the Mavs now than if they landed D-Will and Dwight. Imagine how much of a mess that would be?

You'd take the team now over a Dirk/Dwight/Deron lead team? am I confusing what you said. If so my bad

[SCdac]

The reason we lost the 06 finals was not because of our center play.

Aren't you the same guy who always saying "the mavs never had a great center and once they finally got one they were real contenders"?

[DMAVS41]

Aren't you the same guy who always saying "the mavs never had a great center and once they finally got one they were real contenders"?

Yes, but that wasn't why we lost in 06 which is what you are talking about.

But the main reason the Mavs didn't win titles from 03 through 10 was that we only had 1 star. And 1 star teams don't win very often...

Would I rather have had better bigs at center than the likes of Josh Howard or Jason Terry or Stack? Of course, but that isn't the debate here.

I'm not saying those guys were more valuable than Chandler. I wouldn't be for paying any of those guys 15 million a year.

So yes, our play at center over the years has left a lot to be desired, but post 03...so has are overall talent. Single star team and a bunch of guys that generally get worse in the playoffs while Dirk gets better.

And what is funny, is that our center play in 12 was actually quite good overall for the Mavs.

You seem to be confusing things, sadly as usual...

I'm not saying center play isn't really important. I'm saying that Chandler at 15 million a year isn't worth it. They are two very different comments.

I've repeatedly hammered Cuban and Nellie for the kind of teams they built after 03...and rightfully so.

You've just happened to pick instances in which lack of center play wasn't our problem...like the 06 finals and the 12 team. it was our offense in 12 that killed us...not our bigs...

[ProfessorMurder]

You'd take the team now over a Dirk/Dwight/Deron lead team? am I confusing what you said. If so my bad

No, you read it right.

Deron is taking up 20 million in capspace, is overrated, has bad ankles and doesn't care. Calderon and Ellis combined make less than Deron.

Dwight had back surgery and is past his prime because of it... He'd be an improvement, but I don't see a personality fit. Dirk's the man of the team and Howard would be bitching about touches.

[DMAVS41]

No, you read it right.

Deron is taking up 20 million in capspace, is overrated, has bad ankles and doesn't care. Calderon and Ellis combined make less than Deron.

Dwight had back surgery and is past his prime because of it... He'd be an improvement, but I don't see a personality fit. Dirk's the man of the team and Howard would be bitching about touches.

I agree about Williams, but Howard would be a perfect fit for us.

We definitely wanted Howard. We lucked out with Williams, but Howard on this current team and we are legit championship contenders.

The problem...Howard is like twice as good or more than Chandler is.

[ProfessorMurder]

I agree about Williams, but Howard would be a perfect fit for us.

We definitely wanted Howard. We lucked out with Williams, but Howard on this current team and we are legit championship contenders.

The problem...Howard is like twice as good or more than Chandler is.

I agree with Howard, he'd make them better even if he's a headache... But I originally meant that if they had signed both it wouldn't work well. (If they even could've signed both)

[DMAVS41]

I agree with Howard, he'd make them better even if he's a headache... But I originally meant that if they had signed both it wouldn't work well. (If they even could've signed both)

I don't think that was possible with the Dirk and Marion contracts.

[ProfessorMurder]

I don't think that was possible with the Dirk and Marion contracts.

Oh gotcha, I thought they could've gotten two max guys at the time. My bad.

[MavsSuperFan]

Nothing much would have changed.
Dirk was really the only great player on the 2011 team.
Tyson Chandler and kidd werent great players at that point.

Dirk had to play out of his mind even to make the finals. We werent a great team.

Lebron had to choke and dirk had to play great to win.

[kentatm]

Lebron had to choke and dirk had to play great to win.

I don't think it was so much that LeBron choked but rather that Dallas decided early on they were going to deny LeBron the ball as much as possible or double him when he had it and then just live with the results of what the rest of the Heat could do.

[MavsSuperFan]

I don't think it was so much that LeBron choked but rather that Dallas decided early on they were going to deny LeBron the ball as much as possible or double him when he had it and then just live with the results of what the rest of the Heat could do.
At one point lebron stopped even trying to shoot. The guy got scared and passive. With his physical talents alone his shot attempts should have been much higher.

He choked and got scared. We also played great, but compared to 2012 and 2013 come on 2011 lebron choked.

[kentatm]

At one point lebron stopped even trying to shoot. The guy got scared and passive. With his physical talents alone his shot attempts should have been much higher.

He choked and got scared. We also played great, but compared to 2012 and 2013 come on 2011 lebron choked.


He got passive b/c Dallas took him out of the game and wrecked his rhythm.

[DMAVS41]

I don't think it was so much that LeBron choked but rather that Dallas decided early on they were going to deny LeBron the ball as much as possible or double him when he had it and then just live with the results of what the rest of the Heat could do.

It started out as that...and then Lebron just lost all confidence (especially in 4th qtrs)

We have to give the Mavs credit for what they did and that we do seem to present a bad matchup for him, but he also did choke.

[DMAVS41]

At one point lebron stopped even trying to shoot. The guy got scared and passive. With his physical talents alone his shot attempts should have been much higher.

He choked and got scared. We also played great, but compared to 2012 and 2013 come on 2011 lebron choked.

Yea, but the problem with this is that Lebron played the first 5.75 games of the 13 finals very similarly to how he played in 11.

The difference was just that the Mavs would never have choked the end of game 6 like the Spurs did...nor would we have let Lebron dominate us like that at the end of a game.

So I totally agree that Lebron choked, but too much is made of Lebron's 13 finals. It was actually pretty awful going into the 4th qtr of game 6...he went ghost again and if the Spurs could make a ft or get a rebound in game 6...we'd be talking about how he choked again...and rightfully so.

[MavsPoke]

Cuban was smart because in essence, that year was a magical run. After years of disappointments and choke jobs, basketball gods finally smiled at them. Cuban knows business and he will not bet 70 plus mil and roll the dice hoping for another stroke of luck.

Eh... that's one way to look at it and a lot of fans around here would agree. It's a little bit dismissive of how good that team was, though. They were really good all around and smart as hell. A dangerous team.

But I look at it like they wanted to have their cake and eat it too. They wanted to stay flexible for big name free agents. So they could keep Dirk plus get the next real super star player here in Dallas for the future.

It was a bet and it didn't work out.

So now try to throw enough together to compete as best you can and enjoy Dirks final years. Maybe hope Carlise can pull off a miracle with the pieces you got and make a good run.

I'm not one for second guess others so I'm just along for the ride and having fun watching my team.

But after Dirk is gone we are back to hoping we get lucky in the draft and get our hands on another once in a generation transcendent type players like most the teams in the league.

[kentatm]

It started out as that...and then Lebron just lost all confidence (especially in 4th qtrs)


well yea, that was the point of freezing him out.

keep him from getting into a rhythm and hope Wade tries to play hero ball which ironically (for the Heat) was a negative b/c had the effect of freezing out LeBreezy even more.

If LeBron had developed himself into a killer catch and shoot 3 point shot by that season it wouldn't have worked but since his long range shot was still erratic once it stopped falling he was boned and it wrecked him. He started trying to make "the right" plays but all that did was funnel the ball to guys who were nowhere near as good as him and had far less of a chance to break the Mavs D.

It also helped that Wade didn't suddenly turn into a killer 3 point shooter out of nowhere like he did in the 06 Finals.

[DMAVS41]

Eh... that's one way to look at it and a lot of fans around here would agree. It's a little bit dismissive of how good that team was, though. They were really good all around and smart as hell. A dangerous team.

But I look at it like they wanted to have their cake and eat it too. They wanted to stay flexible for big name free agents. So they could keep Dirk plus get the next real super star player here in Dallas for the future.

It was a bet and it didn't work out.

So now try to throw enough together to compete as best you can and enjoy Dirks final years. Maybe hope Carlise can pull off a miracle with the pieces you got and make a good run.

I'm not one for second guess others so I'm just along for the ride and having fun watching my team.

But after Dirk is gone we are back to hoping we get lucky in the draft and get our hands on another once in a generation transcendent type players like most the teams in the league.

But don't you think that "bet" is better than hoping an aging team of overpaid players on long term deals somehow captures lightning in a bottle again?

I've said it time and time again...it was a lose lose situation unfortunately.

Keep the championship team together and you just aren't winning anything...certainly not in 13 and 14 and 15.

Let them go and you don't attract the big names (we didn't know this at the time of course)

I'll take the "bet"...especially knowing that worst case scenario we have a better team in 14 and 15 with more cap space

[MavsPoke]

But don't you think that "bet" is better than hoping an aging team of overpaid players on long term deals somehow captures lightning in a bottle again?

I've said it time and time again...it was a lose lose situation unfortunately.

Keep the championship team together and you just aren't winning anything...certainly not in 13 and 14 and 15.

Let them go and you don't attract the big names (we didn't know this at the time of course)

I'll take the "bet"...especially knowing that worst case scenario we have a better team in 14 and 15 with more cap space

Yeah. Like I said. I'm not one to second guess someone else. Especially when they live and breathe it as their job everyday and their asses are on the line.

If today we were sitting here with Dirk + CP3 or Dirk + Dwight, I think everyone would have agreed it was worth it.

Not many teams in the modern free agency era of any sport have pulled off the transition from one super star player to the next without any rebuild. Some at least need a year to tank and super lucky #1 pick. Spurs, Colts, etc. I think it was worth a shot.

[FireDavidKahn]

Cuban didn't go the cheap route. He went for the swing for the fences and hope Dwight or Deron will sign with them. Didn't pan out but the team didn't break up because he was cheap, Dallas is an old team and he took a risk to try and sign a young star.

[fos]

Marty McFly would never have gotten polio.

[tmacattack33]

Wtf

[Fire Colangelo]

Does nobody remember how Dirk came in WAY out of shape in the beginning of the '12 season? Dirk wasn't Dirk anymore and that's why the Mavs did so poorly in the '12 season. Even if they had stayed together, that Mavs team went as far as Dirk took them. Dirk would've taken them nowhere in 2012.

[sammichoffate]

I honestly couldn't see them repeating, losing in the WCF would be a good place to put them because of stuff like the lamar odom situation and such.

[Bandito]

hey people lebron played bad + the heat played arroyo, dampier, big z, james jones, joel anthony, mike bibby, eddie house, dexter pitman and jamal magloire and they were down 2-3 with 2 games at home just like last year.


not to mention dirk was at his absolute peak.

dallas would not reach the finals and if they do they'll lose just like the thuder 4-1.

can't belive chicago with HCA lost 1-4 vs this team with so many scrubs.
One that never watched the heat play. Arroyo was moved to make space for Bibby on the Heat. If Arroyo played they would actually been a little bit better as Bibby was done though...:facepalm

[sammichoffate]

One that never watched the heat play. Arroyo was moved to make space for Bibby on the Heat. If Arroyo played they would actually been a little bit better as Bibby was done though...:facepalmIt's okay bud, let him dream :cheers:

[DMAVS41]

Does nobody remember how Dirk came in WAY out of shape in the beginning of the '12 season? Dirk wasn't Dirk anymore and that's why the Mavs did so poorly in the '12 season. Even if they had stayed together, that Mavs team went as far as Dirk took them. Dirk would've taken them nowhere in 2012.

Dirk rounded into form the last half of the year and was playing pretty well in the playoffs.

I don't think he had another 11 run in him, but he still was more than capable of a 25/8/3 58% TS playoff run. That just wouldn't have been enough though...

Honestly...it's probably a 2nd round loss in 12. Miss the playoffs or first round loss in 13...and then a for sure miss of the playoffs in 14 by keeping Chandler and some of the older players.

I love how Chandler is praised so much on here...yet paired with ****ing Carmelo Anthony balling out of his mind...the Knicks are 11-22 when Chandler plays and 10-14 when he doesn't. Might miss the playoffs in one of the worst conferences in NBA history...

But yea...he's the difference in a team getting swept in the first round and winning the title...ROFL