Anyone tired of the phrase "Fighting for Our Freedom"

[ALBballer]

This is nothing against people in the military because I understand they are just regular people following orders. But everytime I hear this empty statement I feel like asking the person to explain their position. Unfortunately it's one of those statements that is politically correct and any opposition to it would make you seem like a "traitor" of some sort.

Are they fighting for our freedom? Or are they deployed half way around the world in some country that sees them as invaders for the benefit of the greater power (whether it be the military complex, corporation, etc.)

Does anyone real feel safer after Iraq and Afghanistan? I would argue we are creating more issues and the effects of blowback will be much more damaging to our "freedoms" in the future.

Elected officials affect our freedom. Maybe you can make the case the military protects our safety but our freedom is far from correct. So my question is, can we just stop saying this meaningless propagandic statement?

[Nick Young]

No. It is a great and noble phrase. If you don't like it, you can git out.

[kNicKz]

no

lol

[step_back]

It's often used as a way of justifying something. Who can argue against something that is "Fighting for freedom".

America doesn't have to worry about their freedom being taken away from them. No country could overpower the U.S and honestly I doubt you would find anyone bothered about doing it in the first place.

[travelingman]

No. It is a great and noble phrase. If you don't like it, you can git out.

More like gitmo out.

[dr.hee]

This is nothing against people in the military because I understand they are just regular people following orders. But everytime I hear this empty statement I feel like asking the person to explain their position. Unfortunately it's one of those statements that is politically correct and any opposition to it would make you seem like a "traitor" of some sort.

Are they fighting for our freedom? Or are they deployed half way around the world in some country that sees them as invaders for the benefit of the greater power (whether it be the military complex, corporation, etc.)

Does anyone real feel safer after Iraq and Afghanistan? I would argue we are creating more issues and the effects of blowback will be much more damaging to our "freedoms" in the future.

Elected officials affect our freedom. Maybe you can make the case the military protects our safety but our freedom is far from correct. So my question is, can we just stop saying this meaningless propagandic statement?

To me it's one of those phrases that essentially don't mean anything if you ask a person for a concrete definition. But it gives them a sense of meaning and belonging to a specific group I guess. People just need the illusion of imaginary concepts being a real thing. Provides comfort.

[MightyWhitey]

This is nothing against people in the military because I understand they are just regular people following orders. But everytime I hear this empty statement I feel like asking the person to explain their position. Unfortunately it's one of those statements that is politically correct and any opposition to it would make you seem like a "traitor" of some sort.

Are they fighting for our freedom? Or are they deployed half way around the world in some country that sees them as invaders for the benefit of the greater power (whether it be the military complex, corporation, etc.)

Does anyone real feel safer after Iraq and Afghanistan? I would argue we are creating more issues and the effects of blowback will be much more damaging to our "freedoms" in the future.

Elected officials affect our freedom. Maybe you can make the case the military protects our safety but our freedom is far from correct. So my question is, can we just stop saying this meaningless propagandic statement?
This phrase will never get old. God Bless America :party:

[Swaggin916]

I believe the military does good things and shady things... but no I don't believe they are fighting for my freedom. When somebody tries to invade and take away our freedom then I will say that. I like what somebody else said about protecting our safety... that's more accurate. The argument will always be that it's better to be preventative then reactive though... let everyone know you mean business so they are discouraged from messing with you.

[KevinNYC]

There's a couple of problems with it.

One, having soldiers doesn't make a country free.
http://static.diepresse.com/images/uploads_425/0/3/f/1323071/6E95CE42CB8E41A68CF5AAEAC494A7A91_1364542977855257 .jpg

There's a lot more to it than just that.

Secondly, while having a strong military keeps us secure, it doesn't mean every use the military is put is about our freedom.

The last hot war the US fought that was about an existential threat to the US was WWII.

[MightyWhitey]

There's a couple of problems with it.

One, having soldiers doesn't make a country free.
http://static.diepresse.com/images/uploads_425/0/3/f/1323071/6E95CE42CB8E41A68CF5AAEAC494A7A91_1364542977855257 .jpg

There's a lot more to it than just that.

Secondly, while having a strong military keeps us secure, it doesn't mean every use the military is put is about our freedom.

The last hot war the US fought that was about an existential threat to the US was WWII.
And 9/11???

[chosen_one6]

And 9/11???

The "war on terrorism" was a bunch of bullsh*t and an excuse to obtain other things by means of scaring the public into thinking we were being targeted. None of the Middle Eastern countries would be able to do anything serious to the U.S.A.

[MightyWhitey]

The "war on terrorism" was a bunch of bullsh*t and an excuse to obtain other things by means of scaring the public into thinking we were being targeted. None of the Middle Eastern countries would be able to do anything serious to the U.S.A.
Wow I've noticed that the educational system in America has sunk into a dark sewer. What in the blue hell are you babbling about???

[oh the horror]

I'm tired of all patriotic catch phrases already.


Seems like were always fighting for our freedoms against the imaginary boogeyman out to steal our way of life.



And those same boogeymen are always from a far off land.

[KevinNYC]

And 9/11???
Read what I wrote again. I didn't say justified, I said "existential threat."

[mr.big35]

having wiretapped and nsa monitoring sure rings the freedom.
switzerland has freedom and they dont have military.

[Lakers Legend#32]

We have not fought a war for our freedom in the last 70+ years.
Every military intervention since then has been about economic colonialism and Cold War ideology.

[Trollsmasher]

When you are:

1) PoC

2) LGBT

3) freedom fighter

You can do anything you want:rockon:

[MightyWhitey]

We have not fought a war for our freedom in the last 70+ years.
Every military intervention since then has been about economic colonialism and Cold War ideology.
http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz183/vbamf/stfu.jpg (http://media.photobucket.com/user/vbamf/media/stfu.jpg.html)

[ieballer3]

http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz183/vbamf/stfu.jpg (http://media.photobucket.com/user/vbamf/media/stfu.jpg.html)

MightyWhitey

[chosen_one6]

Wow I've noticed that the educational system in America has sunk into a dark sewer. What in the blue hell are you babbling about???

Please educate me on what this "war" was for? Since you know so much.

[bladefd]

Reminds me of "defense spending" when most of that money is spent on weapons dealing completely with offensive firepower and have nothing to do with defense.

[ROCSteady]

I believe the military does good things and shady things... but no I don't believe they are fighting for my freedom. When somebody tries to invade and take away our freedom then I will say that. I like what somebody else said about protecting our safety... that's more accurate. The argument will always be that it's better to be preventative then reactive though... let everyone know you mean business so they are discouraged from messing with you.

These are my sentiments as well. Nice way to put it Swag.

My freedom is not contingent on what the military does currently, so yes I am sick of the statement as it exists today.

People really over romanticize what soldiers actually do and are. There are def war heroes and masterminds that deserve all the praise and extras for being vital for the country but not every Tom, Jerry and Steve that is enlisted. Those dudes are conditioned to think that becuz they are a part of the US miltary, they are exempt from acting like shitheads, I've seen it time and time again.

I know a couple war heroes and they get my utmost respect for having balls and an unshakable way to execute their training but a good portion of those enlisted act like fools far too obnoxiously to get my respect just for being property of the government.

[Lakers Legend#32]

The Iraq War was about protecting our freedoms? :lol
More like lining Dick Cheney's pockets.

[Solidape]

This is nothing against people in the military because I understand they are just regular people following orders. But everytime I hear this empty statement I feel like asking the person to explain their position. Unfortunately it's one of those statements that is politically correct and any opposition to it would make you seem like a "traitor" of some sort.

Are they fighting for our freedom? Or are they deployed half way around the world in some country that sees them as invaders for the benefit of the greater power (whether it be the military complex, corporation, etc.)

Does anyone real feel safer after Iraq and Afghanistan? I would argue we are creating more issues and the effects of blowback will be much more damaging to our "freedoms" in the future.

Elected officials affect our freedom. Maybe you can make the case the military protects our safety but our freedom is far from correct. So my question is, can we just stop saying this meaningless propagandic statement?

People use this as a crutch to reach a higher moral ground from which they can knock everyone below them.

Its also propaganda at its best!

[Akrazotile]

The Iraq War was about protecting our freedoms? :lol
More like lining Dick Cheney's pockets.



You know our army is still in the middle east, right?

[chosen_one6]

You know our army is still in the middle east, right?

Dick Cheney is involved with one of the companies that manufactures military weapons. I can't remember which one. A number of politicians are, and it's a big reason why they want this "war" to keep going.

[dude77]

The "war on terrorism" was a bunch of bullsh*t and an excuse to obtain other things by means of scaring the public into thinking we were being targeted. None of the Middle Eastern countries would be able to do anything serious to the U.S.A.

this ..


We have not fought a war for our freedom in the last 70+ years.
Every military intervention since then has been about economic colonialism and Cold War ideology.

and this

[East_Stone_Ya]

what we need to understand is that wars are necessary for progress.

[kNIOKAS]

what we need to understand is that wars are necessary for progress.
Define progress.

[russwest0]

This is nothing against people in the military because I understand they are just regular people following orders. But everytime I hear this empty statement I feel like asking the person to explain their position. Unfortunately it's one of those statements that is politically correct and any opposition to it would make you seem like a "traitor" of some sort.

Are they fighting for our freedom? Or are they deployed half way around the world in some country that sees them as invaders for the benefit of the greater power (whether it be the military complex, corporation, etc.)

Does anyone real feel safer after Iraq and Afghanistan? I would argue we are creating more issues and the effects of blowback will be much more damaging to our "freedoms" in the future.

Elected officials affect our freedom. Maybe you can make the case the military protects our safety but our freedom is far from correct. So my question is, can we just stop saying this meaningless propagandic statement?

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Damn, dropping the truth bomb. My guess is the betas on this forum as usual are gonna object.

They are fighting for the profiteers of war. Nothing more, nothing less. If there was oil in Africa, they'd be over there fighting too.

[tomtucker]

what we need to understand is that wars are necessary for progress.

middle east are still in the 1400

[East_Stone_Ya]

Define progress.

innovation does often come through war. Competition with other countries for better weaponry often forces scientific innovation. The Internet itself was part of a larger project to connect agencies for war time communications. And now it connects the world.

[-p.tiddy-]

what we need to understand is that wars are necessary for progress.
truth


no matter how bad the war in Iraq might seem I can't help but to think it will be seen as an essential time for that country in terms of turning things around, and obviously that turn around isn't going to happen over night or even over 10 years...will take decades, but you have to start somewhere...one thing is for sure, that country wouldn't go anywhere as long as it's rule is being handed down to from Hussein to Hussein, his kids were worse than he was.

[KingBeasley08]

Absolutely agree. I respect all the soldiers that put their lives on the line but in today's day and age, the US military fights for its' own benefits, decimating innocent civilians in the process

[Go Getter]

These are my sentiments as well. Nice way to put it Swag.

My freedom is not contingent on what the military does currently, so yes I am sick of the statement as it exists today.

People really over romanticize what soldiers actually do and are. There are def war heroes and masterminds that deserve all the praise and extras for being vital for the country but not every Tom, Jerry and Steve that is enlisted. Those dudes are conditioned to think that becuz they are a part of the US miltary, they are exempt from acting like shitheads, I've seen it time and time again.

I know a couple war heroes and they get my utmost respect for having balls and an unshakable way to execute their training but a good portion of those enlisted act like fools far too obnoxiously to get my respect just for being property of the government.


If America did not have "the biggest stick" we would probably be speaking Russian or German right now. The nuclear program and our superior Air Force is what keeps us safe from people that would like to do us harm.

I agree with the sentiment that we aren't free and I agree that we don't fight for freedom but the military keeps us safe.

It's the only reason countries don't try us over our corporate/political bullshit.

If we had no army we'd be in a world of shit.

[ALBballer]

If America did not have "the biggest stick" we would probably be speaking Russian or German right now. The nuclear program and our superior Air Force is what keeps us safe from people that would like to do us harm.

I agree with the sentiment that we aren't free and I agree that we don't fight for freedom but the military keeps us safe.

It's the only reason countries don't try us over our corporate/political bullshit.

If we had no army we'd be in a world of shit.

The only problem is we are on the opposite side of the spectrum of having no army . America spends more on their military than the next 12 countries combined.

We need to stand up to the fear mongering in the country. The Cold War is over and there are issues that can be fixed domestically that cause more deaths and sicknesses than terrorist could ever imagine.

[-p.tiddy-]

The only problem is we are on the opposite side of the spectrum of having no army . America spends more on their military than the next 12 countries combined.

We need to stand up to the fear mongering in the country. The Cold War is over and there are issues that can be fixed domestically that cause more deaths and sicknesses than terrorist could ever imagine.
large military spending cuts are currently in the works from what I have read recently

we are going to start spending less

[-p.tiddy-]

Defense Secretary Proposes Big Cuts to U.S. Military Spending (http://mashable.com/2014/02/24/proposed-u-s-military-budget-cuts/)


United States Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel proposed a new Pentagon budget on Monday that would shrink the U.S. military's size down to pre-World War II levels, becoming the Defense Department's first non-war budget since 2001.

Speaking from the Pentagon at a press conference, Hagel said the military can reduce spending and get smaller without losing its worldwide presence. He added that there is no need for a force that can fight two wars when the Iraq war ended over two years ago, and the war in Afghanistan has been drawing down for some time. Hagel's cuts will likely prompt sharp criticism from some veterans' groups and members of Congress, who have to approve the budget for it to move forward.

[-p.tiddy-]

http://www.rickety.us/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Defense_Spending_by_Country_2010-570x288.png

:oldlol:


I'm sure that makes everyone living outside of the US a little uneasy...

we drop our kids of at school in Stealth Bombers...

[ALBballer]

Defense Secretary Proposes Big Cuts to U.S. Military Spending (http://mashable.com/2014/02/24/proposed-u-s-military-budget-cuts/)

Hopefully it will go through. It is much needed.

[KingBeasley08]

http://www.rickety.us/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Defense_Spending_by_Country_2010-570x288.png

:oldlol:


I'm sure that makes everyone living outside of the US a little uneasy...

we drop our kids of at school in Stealth Bombers...
Jeez we never left the Cold War, did we :oldlol:

That's more than the rest of the world combined...

[Akrazotile]

http://www.rickety.us/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Defense_Spending_by_Country_2010-570x288.png

:oldlol:


I'm sure that makes everyone living outside of the US a little uneasy...

we drop our kids of at school in Stealth Bombers...


We are the de facto protection for most countries around the world as well though. The reason other large nations don't go to war with each other is because they know the U.S. will step in against whoever is the aggressor and start whoopin ass.

If we drop a few bombs to clear out some space for our oil rigs at a few choice locations around the globe as compensation.... :confusedshrug: Hey, so be it. :lol


The reality is that most of the world IS safer because of US military dominance.

[-p.tiddy-]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2012/11/Military-spending-sequester.jpg


^^^ that is what is happening now...we are on a downward trend in terms of military spending

will shoot back up once we decide that North Korea needs democracy :lol

[KingBeasley08]

We are the de facto protection for most countries around the world as well though. The reason other large nations don't go to war with each other is because they know the U.S. will step in against whoever is the aggressor and start whoopin ass.

If we drop a few bombs to clear out some space for our oil rigs at a few choice locations around the globe as compensation.... :confusedshrug: Hey, so be it. :lol


The reality is that most of the world IS safer because of US military dominance.
We def need a strong military. If there wasn't, everyone would gun for the US :oldlol:

That said, the amount we're spending is waaaaaaaaay too much. Our military is already probably 20 years ahead of most countries. Over 600 billion dollars is just wack

[Akrazotile]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2012/11/Military-spending-sequester.jpg


^^^ that is what is happening now...we are on a downward trend in terms of military spending

will shoot back up once we decide that North Korea needs democracy :lol


A notion which will likely be incited by some supposedly korean terrorists knockin out the Sears Tower.

[Akrazotile]

We def need a strong military. If there wasn't, everyone would gun for the US :oldlol:

That said, the amount we're spending is waaaaaaaaay too much. Our military is already probably 20 years ahead of most countries. Over 600 billion dollars is just wack


I agree, and a lot of that money is being spent solely because certain interests are profiting off it. Also, Republican politicians always preach about reducing the federal budget and cutting federal programs, because people who receive those entitlements or jobs vote Democrat. So when that's the case, they're all about slashing the budget on principle. But of course, most of the military votes red. So Republicans suddenly aren't so quick to slash those government jobs.

[Go Getter]

The only problem is we are on the opposite side of the spectrum of having no army . America spends more on their military than the next 12 countries combined.

We need to stand up to the fear mongering in the country. The Cold War is over and there are issues that can be fixed domestically that cause more deaths and sicknesses than terrorist could ever imagine.


I agree sir.

[ROCSteady]

If America did not have "the biggest stick" we would probably be speaking Russian or German right now. The nuclear program and our superior Air Force is what keeps us safe from people that would like to do us harm.

I agree with the sentiment that we aren't free and I agree that we don't fight for freedom but the military keeps us safe.

It's the only reason countries don't try us over our corporate/political bullshit.

If we had no army we'd be in a world of shit.

What does this have to do with my statement you highlighted? I didn't say anything about military history, I'm talkin today.

All I said is that the military's current operations overseas where these guys are putting themselves at risk or in danger does not have anything to do with my personal freedoms living here.

I never said the military doesn't also keep us safe but I was moreso commenting on the drooling that foolish people do to every enlisted person who may or may not do anything to even keep me safe. In that case, why the fck should I be thanking that person for a gig they signed up for, most likely becuz of lack of opportunities or the government paying them a salary?

My answer is I do not owe appreciation to every damn person in the military, many do deserve that special treatment but I'm not gunna group all the fools I know in a category to be revered when I kno what jackasses they actually are, whether it's common and polite to think highly of these dudes or not.

So no, I don't think the military fights for our freedom. They sustain our safety, which I am appreciative of but the ppl we invaded recently, Iraqis/Afghans weren't about to come in this country and occupy shit. They didn't have the means and numbers BECAUSE our military is strong and technologically advanced but as far as the 'fighting,' well it seems we have been seeking the fight in recent history.... about issues and conflict that the continental ppl of America have absolutely zero to do with. We wouldn't likely see any repercussions from unless Al-Queda and those terrorist groups form an influence and power of say, something comparable to the Nazi party, which is extremely unlikely.

[Graviton]

It's not supposed to be literal.

I like to think because of those who volunteer we can live the way we do, thanks to them there is no draft, like during Vietnam. No sons, husbands and fathers being forced to go to some shithole and die with no purpose, leaving their family behind.

That's what "Fighting for our freedom" means, they make the sacrifice so we can live in peace. Free and without a mandatory draft. You thank them for that.

[Solidape]

It's not supposed to be literal.

I like to think because of those who volunteer we can live the way we do, thanks to them there is no draft, like during Vietnam. No sons, husbands and fathers being forced to go to some shithole and die with no purpose, leaving their family behind.

That's what "Fighting for our freedom" means, they make the sacrifice so we can live in peace. Free and without a mandatory draft. You thank them for that.

As good a reason as I have heard about this.

However, it is not a totally proper analogy, its like saying people should thank me for not killing them because I am a safe driver, I am "fighting for your freedom from death".

[kNIOKAS]

It's not supposed to be literal.

I like to think because of those who volunteer we can live the way we do, thanks to them there is no draft, like during Vietnam. No sons, husbands and fathers being forced to go to some shithole and die with no purpose, leaving their family behind.

That's what "Fighting for our freedom" means, they make the sacrifice so we can live in peace. Free and without a mandatory draft. You thank them for that.
:rolleyes:

[kNIOKAS]

If America did not have "the biggest stick" we would probably be speaking Russian or German right now. The nuclear program and our superior Air Force is what keeps us safe from people that would like to do us harm.

I agree with the sentiment that we aren't free and I agree that we don't fight for freedom but the military keeps us safe.

It's the only reason countries don't try us over our corporate/political bullshit.

If we had no army we'd be in a world of shit.
Really? Last time I've checked Russians and Germans had been fighting eachother, in a different continent.

[step_back]

Really? Last time I've checked Russians and Germans had been fighting eachother, in a different continent.

Post World War Germany is also one of the most politically knowledgeable places in the World. It's also been an allied country to the U.S ever since the Nazi party was defeated.

By people saying "Russians" I assume they mean the Soviets. The Soviet Union crumbled in 1992. No country since then could possibly over throw America. Even the Chinese who greatly outnumber the U.S would get destroyed because American technology is completely unmatched by anything anyone else has.

I think America acts as a very good deterrent because you wouldn't want to start a war with them. That being said I'd say you're a bigger target now for terrorists then you ever have been before. I don't think your Freedom is at stake but your national security is and will be for the future.

[Dresta]

innovation does often come through war. Competition with other countries for better weaponry often forces scientific innovation. The Internet itself was part of a larger project to connect agencies for war time communications. And now it connects the world.
Yes, and you cannot have dramatic change without conflict. Sometimes a war is what is needed to move things forward: though it pushes things backwards initially, it clears the path for beneficial progress, it promotes the desire of active change. Simply saying 'war is evil, no more war' is in the end a naive, simplistic, and somewhat childish sentiment.

Also, i love how much shit the US gets for its role in the world. But if people were presented with a world where the US had never intervened, and with conditions as they would be if the US had isolated themselves from the world, i feel pretty certain that the vast majority of people would be delighted to accept the good and the bad of American intervention, when compared to the alternative. Instead of just mindlessly hating on America people should recognise that it has been the most benevolent dominant power in the world that has ever existed, and that when considering something's worth, one must also consider whether the alternatives would have actually been any better.

[kNIOKAS]

Post World War Germany is also one of the most politically knowledgeable places in the World. It's also been an allied country to the U.S ever since the Nazi party was defeated.

By people saying "Russians" I assume they mean the Soviets. The Soviet Union crumbled in 1992. No country since then could possibly over throw America. Even the Chinese who greatly outnumber the U.S would get destroyed because American technology is completely unmatched by anything anyone else has.

I think America acts as a very good deterrent because you wouldn't want to start a war with them. That being said I'd say you're a bigger target now for terrorists then you ever have been before. I don't think your Freedom is at stake but your national security is and will be for the future.
So is it the argument that it is good to have the world dominated by one (in military terms) overwhelmingly powerful country?
What's the difference between Soviets and US then? Say it was the other way around. Should we thank Soviets for not getting to talk in English, or what?

[step_back]

So is it the argument that it is good to have the world dominated by one (in military terms) overwhelmingly powerful country?
What's the difference between Soviets and US then? Say it was the other way around. Should we thank Soviets for not getting to talk in English, or what?

One promotes democracy and the other communism. While both were super powers they were very different politically. America might be a military super power but it strives to uphold human rights where as Russia did not (Red Army). While I'll admit that America isn't perfect (No one is) they're a lot more trust worthy and ethically sound than the Soviets ever were.

I also don't understand the question about "Not getting to talk English?"

[bladefd]

Also, i love how much shit the US gets for its role in the world. But if people were presented with a world where the US had never intervened, and with conditions as they would be if the US had isolated themselves from the world, i feel pretty certain that the vast majority of people would be delighted to accept the good and the bad of American intervention, when compared to the alternative. Instead of just mindlessly hating on America people should recognise that it has been the most benevolent dominant power in the world that has ever existed, and that when considering something's worth, one must also consider whether the alternatives would have actually been any better.

Nobody is saying to completely isolate USA from the issues of the world. You can still be involved with the issues of the world to better things without going to multiple wars.

What'd we get out of getting involved in Iraq? Huge monetary losses that further crumpled the US economy more than it already was pre-Iraq, and now Iran suddenly is a new huge threat. In the past, Iran was kept in control by Iraq, but now that has changed hands to USA & EU with Iraq no longer a power in that region. Iran may be worse than even Iraq was before we took down Saddam Hussein.

If the goal was to remove a tyrant that suppressed his people, I can think of 20 other countries. Do we go after all of them? Is our job to police the world? To me, there is a difference between being involved, not being involved, and being too involved. George Washington and few other founding fathers wanted USA to not be too involved in the foreign affairs of other nations. I think that was a calculated call, but they were not able to get enough support to implement that into the US constitution. It has gotten out of control now where we are always first in line involved in every issue of the world. Being involved is fine, but not to this extreme.

[MadeFromDust]

Debates like the above are boring and extremely unattractive -_-