Peak Play: Kobe vs Bird vs Magic vs Hakeem

[Ca$H]

Bird: 29.9 9.3 6.1, 28.1 9.2 6.6, 28.7 10.5 6.6
Magic: 23.9 6.3 12.2, 22.5 7.5 12.8, 22.3 6.6 11.5
Kobe: 35.4 5.3 4.5, 31.6 5.7 5.4, 30.0 6.9 5.9
Hakeem: 26.1 13.0 3.5, 27.3 11.9 3.6, 27.8 10.8 3.5


I'll take Kobe just based on those three stats (PPG RPG APG). It is his low FG% that makes Bird, Magic, and Hakeem's peak better. If Kobe had a career FG% of 50% instead of 45.4% Kobe would have the best peak of the four players.

[Smook A.]

It's really hard to pick one. At their peaks they were all too great

[Jlamb47]

I would go with Kobe but all 4 our great

[Akrazotile]

OP owns a Collins jersey.

[Dr Hawk]

Would you take peak Kobe over peak Lebron?

[Akrazotile]

Bird: 29.9 9.3 6.1, 28.1 9.2 6.6, 28.7 10.5 6.6
Magic: 23.9 6.3 12.2, 22.5 7.5 12.8, 22.3 6.6 11.5
Kobe: 35.4 5.3 4.5, 31.6 5.7 5.4, 30.0 6.9 5.9
Hakeem: 26.1 13.0 3.5, 27.3 11.9 3.6, 27.8 10.8 3.5


I'll take Kobe just based on those three stats (PPG RPG APG). It is his low FG% that makes Bird, Magic, and Hakeem's peak better. If Kobe had a career FG% of 50% instead of 45.4% Kobe would have the best peak of the four players.


If ifs and buts were colorado sluts..... kobe would rape.

[T_L_P]

Hakeem had the best peak, when defense is factored into it.

[Bernie Nips]

I take Bird.

[moe94]

Dream > Bird > Kobe > Magic

[fpliii]

Hakeem
Bird
Kobe
Magic

[K Xerxes]

Bird: 29.9 9.3 6.1, 28.1 9.2 6.6, 28.7 10.5 6.6
Magic: 23.9 6.3 12.2, 22.5 7.5 12.8, 22.3 6.6 11.5
Kobe: 35.4 5.3 4.5, 31.6 5.7 5.4, 30.0 6.9 5.9
Hakeem: 26.1 13.0 3.5, 27.3 11.9 3.6, 27.8 10.8 3.5


I'll take Kobe just based on those three stats (PPG RPG APG). It is his low FG% that makes Bird, Magic, and Hakeem's peak better. If Kobe had a career FG% of 50% instead of 45.4% Kobe would have the best peak of the four players.

And the point is... he doesn't. Get over it.

In any case, IMO looking past the box scores and at their overall games... Hakeem > Bird > Magic >= Kobe.

[scm5]

Hakeem
Kobe
Bird/Magic

Hakeem's mostly because he was not only a great scorer, but a game changer defensively.

Kobe was by far the best scorer of the bunch and could play lock down defense when he wanted to.

Bird and Magic I think at the same level. Bird was regarded as the better player, but I attribute that to him being the better scorer which usually attracts more attention. Magic was one of the few players that could control the pace of the game at will.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Hakeem
Bird
Magic
Kobe

[Akrazotile]

Kirby arguably has the GOAT empty stats peak. When you combine that with zero defensive game, he is clearly the MOAT :bowdown:

[Bob Dole]

Bird
Magic
Hakeem
Kobe

Lol at having Hakeem over magic or bird. Dude only played early career Shaq to a draw at best. The tale of Hakeem being some mythical like basketball player grows stronger everyday.

[Round Mound]

Hakeem
Bird
Magic
Kobe

This

[moe94]

Bird
Magic
Hakeem
Kobe

Lol at having Hakeem over magic or bird. Dude only played early career Shaq to a draw at best. The tale of Hakeem being some mythical like basketball player grows stronger everyday.

MVP, Finals MVP, godly stats, DPoTY, lead a team without any other allstars or all-NBA players to a title

:coleman:

[Akrazotile]

MVP, Finals MVP, godly stats, DPoTY, lead a team without any other allstars or all-NBA players to a title

:coleman:


But he failed to teach amare or dwight consistent post moves.


So overall hes a failure.

[Bob Dole]

MVP, Finals MVP, godly stats, DPoTY, lead a team without any other allstars or all-NBA players to a title

:coleman:

Bird and magic both have multiple seasons better than any Hakeem season. Placing them on a team is an automatic contender essentially. Hakeem was never thought of as good as them until you revisionists talk about something you never saw. I'm starting to think its Hakeem and not Kobe who is now the most overrated player all time. My god!

[moe94]

This guy seriously did "no u still overrated"

MR BOB DOLE YOU'RE TOO OLD TO UNDERSTAND THE WAY THE GAME'S TOLD

[MMM]

Bird
Hakeem then magic

btw i'm not sure if that is the right season for peak kobe. Kobe in the next following seasons had more impact on games than 06 Kobe.

[Odinn]

Kobe doesn't belong to that group. Of course, Kobe-stans are afraid to face the truth.

[LAZERUSS]

Does anyone here really believe that there is a, or would be a, consensus on this topic?

[Fazotronic]

Hakeem
Kobe
Bird/Magic

Hakeem's mostly because he was not only a great scorer, but a game changer defensively.

Kobe was by far the best scorer of the bunch and could play lock down defense when he wanted to.

Bird and Magic I think at the same level. Bird was regarded as the better player, but I attribute that to him being the better scorer which usually attracts more attention. Magic was one of the few players that could control the pace of the game at will.

this

[SHAQisGOAT]

Bird had a better peak - and a top5 peak ever - out of those 4 but it's hard to go against a terrific all-around center like Hakeem, or a dude like Magic, an offensive juggernaut.. But yea, it's Bird. And numbers never tell the whole story, not really needed here (btw Bird's peak wasn't in 1988, again numbers don't tell the whole story).

[CAstill]

Kobe
Magic
Bird
Hakeem


Very close players. Hakeem is the wort of the bunch though.

[pauk]

Hakeem averaged around 3-5 bpg & 2-3 spg aswell....

[Milbuck]

Hakeem
Kobe
Bird
Magic

Defense matters.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Bird > Hakeem = Magic > Kobe

[houston]

Kobe
Bird
Magic
Hakeem

[JohnFreeman]

Bird: 29.9 9.3 6.1, 28.1 9.2 6.6, 28.7 10.5 6.6
Magic: 23.9 6.3 12.2, 22.5 7.5 12.8, 22.3 6.6 11.5
Kobe: 35.4 5.3 4.5, 31.6 5.7 5.4, 30.0 6.9 5.9
Hakeem: 26.1 13.0 3.5, 27.3 11.9 3.6, 27.8 10.8 3.5


I'll take Kobe just based on those three stats (PPG RPG APG). It is his low FG% that makes Bird, Magic, and Hakeem's peak better. If Kobe had a career FG% of 50% instead of 45.4% Kobe would have the best peak of the four players.
http://i.4cdn.org/b/src/1393510039074.gif

[Knoe Itawl]

Hakeem
Kobe
Bird
Magic

Defense matters.

So does not killing team chemistry. The rest were all better team and bballl IQ guys than Kobe along with their stats and that >>> whatever edge Kobe's defense may get him (which was overrated that year anyway, as Phil himself said)

[chazzy]

So does not killing team chemistry.
Kobe killed his team's chemistry all the way to the 8th, 7th, 3rd and 3rd best offenses as the man from 06-09

[lakers_forever]

This thread helps proves how Olajuwon is overrated here. Peak, prime, career, whatever. He was not better in any of tohse than Bird and Magic at all.

Pure revisionist history. There's no way in hell Olajuwon would be considered the man, the best player of the team, if he played with prime Bird or prime Magic. If you said that to anyone in 1994 or 1995, they would laugh at your face.
Virtually no one in the media or among the great players were saying in 1994 or 1995 things like: "man, this Olajuwon guy might be the best player of all time". No one was calling him the greatest center ever as well.

Hakeem was a great player, true legend of the game. He ranks among the best 15 players of all time. But let's be real. He can't be compared to Bird and Magic, guys who dominated the league and their position for a decade. Olajuwon was never the best player in basketball. He was the best player in the NBA for two seasons only because MJ retired to play baseball... And it's not like before 94, he was consired the second best NBA player. Many ranked Robinson, Ewing, Barkley and Malone ahead of him. That's why Olajuwon could not even make the all nba first team for 3 years in a row (90, 91 and 92) during his prime.

[lakers_forever]

I honestly can't decide between Kobe and Olajuwon in regards to peaks. But I have not doubt Kobe had a greater career.

[sportjames23]

OP owns a Collins jersey.

:lol :lol :lol

[Bob Dole]

This thread helps proves how Olajuwon is overrated here. Peak, prime, career, whatever. He was not better in any of tohse than Bird and Magic at all.

Pure revisionist history. There's no way in hell Olajuwon would be considered the man, the best player of the team, if he played with prime Bird or prime Magic. If you said that to anyone in 1994 or 1995, they would laugh at your face.
Virtually no one in the media or among the great players were saying in 1994 or 1995 things like: "man, this Olajuwon guy might be the best player of all time". No one was calling him the greatest center ever as well.

Hakeem was a great player, true legend of the game. He ranks among the best 15 players of all time. But let's be real. He can't be compared to Bird and Magic, guys who dominated the league and their position for a decade. Olajuwon was never the best player in basketball. He was the best player in the NBA for two seasons only because MJ retired to play baseball... And it's not like before 94, he was consired the second best NBA player. Many ranked Robinson, Ewing, Barkley and Malone ahead of him. That's why Olajuwon could not even make the all nba first team for 3 years in a row (90, 91 and 92) during his prime.

So much This!!! These guys on here are rewriting history. Hakeem was NEVER considered better than Bird or Magic and Malone, Barkley, Ewing and others were right there with him and many thought they were better. He is a tier below Magic and Bird and that is all there is to it.

[T_L_P]

This thread helps proves how Olajuwon is overrated here. Peak, prime, career, whatever. He was not better in any of tohse than Bird and Magic at all.

Pure revisionist history. There's no way in hell Olajuwon would be considered the man, the best player of the team, if he played with prime Bird or prime Magic. If you said that to anyone in 1994 or 1995, they would laugh at your face.
Virtually no one in the media or among the great players were saying in 1994 or 1995 things like: "man, this Olajuwon guy might be the best player of all time". No one was calling him the greatest center ever as well.

Hakeem was a great player, true legend of the game. He ranks among the best 15 players of all time. But let's be real. He can't be compared to Bird and Magic, guys who dominated the league and their position for a decade. Olajuwon was never the best player in basketball. He was the best player in the NBA for two seasons only because MJ retired to play baseball... And it's not like before 94, he was consired the second best NBA player. Many ranked Robinson, Ewing, Barkley and Malone ahead of him. That's why Olajuwon could not even make the all nba first team for 3 years in a row (90, 91 and 92) during his prime.

Hakeem's career may be overrated, but his peak certainly is not.

Tell me when Bird or Magic displayed the greatness Hakeem did on both ends of the floor; tell me when they won with team(s) as mediocre as his.

When Bird was in his peak, the best defenders he went up against were Michael Cooper, Paul Pressey and Robert Reid. Hakeem was going up against Robinson, Ewing and Shaq, 3 of the 10 greatest centers to ever play the game.

And don't feed me that crap about "the media." We're talking basketball here.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Hakeem
Bird
Kobe
Magic

This.

[Bob Dole]

Hakeem's career may be overrated, but his peak certainly is not.

Tell me when Bird or Magic displayed the greatness Hakeem did on both ends of the floor; tell me when they won with team(s) as mediocre as his.

When Bird was in his peak, the best defenders he went up against were Michael Cooper, Paul Pressey and Robert Reid. Hakeem was going up against Robinson, Ewing and Shaq, 3 of the 10 greatest centers to ever play the game.

And don't feed me that crap about "the media." We're talking basketball here.

The whole better at both ends of the court thing is an absolutely stupid argument and its already been shown to be many times. If that was the case kevin garnett and tim duncan would be unquestionably better than magic and bird and you and i both know that's not the case.

No one in 94 or 95 thought that Hakeem was as good as magic or bird at their peaks. Stop rewriting history. It simply didn't happen. Shaq at that time was as good as Hakeem. Are you saying that version of Shaq is better than any version of magic or bird? You are crazy if you think that.

And Bird and magic cant decide who their competition or teamates were so that is a stupid argument as to why hakeem had a better peak. Hakeems teams were as stacked as his competition so thats all that matters.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You're splitting hairs here, but I'd go with:

Hakeem
Bird
Magic
Kobe

took into account
-offense
-defense
-intangibles (leadership and clutch-play)

[T_L_P]

The whole better at both ends of the court thing is an absolutely stupid argument and its already been shown to be many times. If that was the case kevin garnett and tim duncan would be unquestionably better than magic and bird and you and i both know that's not the case.

No one in 94 or 95 thought that Hakeem was as good as magic or bird at their peaks. Stop rewriting history. It simply didn't happen. Shaq at that time was as good as Hakeem. Are you saying that version of Shaq is better than any version of magic or bird? You are crazy if you think that.

And Bird and magic cant decide who their competition or teamates were so that is a stupid argument as to why hakeem had a better peak. Hakeems teams were as stacked as his competition so thats all that matters.

Well, the case could be made for those two (at least Duncan) being ahead of Bird or Magic so...

...and perhaps they didn't think Hakeem was better than Shaq or Ewing or Robinson. But the fact is he was, and he proved it, by beating them quite convincingly.

It's not rewriting history if it's the truth. All you've done so far is give me hyperbole about people's opinions 20 years ago. You've done nothing to say why Bird or Magic, in their peak, were better than Hakeem in his.

The stats are in Hakeem's favour, and so is the fact the he won going up against tougher matchups with considerably less talent.

People called Jacques Tati a simple entertainer in his time...does that mean that's all he was?

[Bob Dole]

Yup its official. Hakeem is now the most overrated player on this board overthrowing Kobe. He actually has the most #1 votes in this thread lol.

Fun Fact: At Larry Bird's Peak some were calling him the GOAT, the freaking GOAT, and you people think that Hakeem had a better peak lol

[T_L_P]

Yup its official. Hakeem is now the most overrated player on this board overthrowing Kobe. He actually has the most #1 votes in this thread lol.

Fun Fact: At Larry Bird's Peak some were calling him the GOAT, the freaking GOAT, and you people think that Hakeem had a better peak lol

So what you've basically just said is you're too lazy to do any research yourself and you're happy to let other people make up your opinions for you?

Like I said, Hakeem was putting up better stats than Bird or Magic whilst carrying his inferior team to titles against stiffer competition in his position. Yet somehow none of this matters, because "people" didn't recognize Hakeem's greatness whilst he was playing.

[millwad]

Yup its official. Hakeem is now the most overrated player on this board overthrowing Kobe. He actually has the most #1 votes in this thread lol.

Fun Fact: At Larry Bird's Peak some were calling him the GOAT, the freaking GOAT, and you people think that Hakeem had a better peak lol

I still recall how the commentators made comments about Dr J being the GOAT when he played his last ALL-star game, that doesn't mean anything at all.

Fun fact: OP used Larry's 87-88 season, a season where they lost in the ECF and two years earlier a 2nd year pro Olajuwon barely got beaten by Larry and his crew in the finals even though Larry had much more talent next to him and Olajuwon was a 2nd year pro.

And prime Olajuwon was the DPOY, Bird over his career never even made the ALL-Defensive 1 team..

[Bob Dole]

Well, the case could be made for those two (at least Duncan) being ahead of Bird or Magic so...

...and perhaps they didn't think Hakeem was better than Shaq or Ewing or Robinson. But the fact is he was, and he proved it, by beating them quite convincingly.

It's not rewriting history if it's the truth. All you've done so far is give me hyperbole about people's opinions 20 years ago. You've done nothing to say why Bird or Magic, in their peak, were better than Hakeem in his.

The stats are in Hakeem's favour, and so is the fact the he won going up against tougher matchups with considerably less talent.

People called Jacques Tati a simple entertainer in his time...does that mean that's all he was?

First, you missed the point of my Duncan, Garnett statement. There definitely is an argument for Duncan being better than Bird. My point is that if the whole better on both sides of the court was a legit argument then their would be no argument for bird and Duncan would be far and a way better. Impact on a basketball game doesn't work like that so you can see why that's stupid.

His teams beat those other teams. He outplayed Ewing and Robinson but did not outplay Shaq. Him outplaying them in those series doesn't change the fact that they were all considered on the same level. If it does then I guess Dirk is greater than Lebron as well. It doesn't work like that.

Bird and Magic are vastly superior offensive players who mere presence on the court makes their team a contender. Hakeem simply wasnt that. They control the tempo of the game and improve their teams play more than he does. It's all about impact.

[Bob Dole]

And I can post the stats of each but that wouldn't do any justice and wouldnt clearly show why they are better even though I think they have better stats as well. Hell Larry bird's best season inst the season where he had the best stats. If you ever saw, magic, bird, and hakeem play you know he was a level below them.

[millwad]

First, you missed the point of my Duncan, Garnett statement. There definitely is an argument for Duncan being better than Bird. My point is that if the whole better on both sides of the court was a legit argument then their would be no argument for bird and Duncan would be far and a way better. Impact on a basketball game doesn't work like that so you can see why that's stupid.

His teams beat those other teams. He outplayed Ewing and Robinson but did not outplay Shaq. Him outplaying them in those series doesn't change the fact that they were all considered on the same level. If it does then I guess Dirk is greater than Lebron as well. It doesn't work like that.


You're a clown if you actually want to go on with this. First you say that his team beat the opponents which is a statement a moron would make, in the '94 run there was no all-star caliber players but Olajuwon on the roster and they lacked in terms of having a 2nd option on offense. The 2nd option was Maxwell who averaged 13.8 points on pathetic 36% shooting.

Olajuwon destroyed Ewing and Robinson and yes, he outplayed Shaq in the finals. He clearly outplayed him in 2 of the games and the only game that belonged to Shaq in the '95 finals was game 1, a game where Olajuwon made the game winning shot.

And didn't Bird's teams and Magic's teams beat the opponents? Just look at the '86 roster of the Celtics for god sake, they had crazy much talent even without counting Bird in.



Bird and Magic are vastly superior offensive players who mere presence on the court makes their team a contender. Hakeem simply wasnt that. They control the tempo of the game and improve their teams play more than he does. It's all about impact.

How are Bird and Magic vastly superior offensive players? Olajuwon has the highest point per game average of all centers in NBA history in the play-offs, Hakeem didn't lack any on offense, he didn't have the HOF teammates that Bird and Magic had next to their sides during their primes. Olajuwon didn't even have an all-star next to his side during the back to back's although in my book Drexler played like an all-star.

And Olajuwon has a huge advantage when it comes to defense over both of them.

[millwad]

And I can post the stats of each but that wouldn't do any justice and wouldnt clearly show why they are better even though I think they have better stats as well. Hell Larry bird's best season inst the season where he had the best stats. If you ever saw, magic, bird, and hakeem play you know he was a level below them.

This is such a bogus post and only shows personal opinions rather than any facts that can be used as arguments.

If anyone is not getting judged fairly it's Olajuwon, you can't see his defensive presence in a box score but you can see Magic and Bird's assists etc..

Bird never made any first ALL-NBA defensive teams and Magic never even made any ALL-NBA defensive teams at all. Olajuwon is the all-time leader in recorded blocks and he is top 10 in steals and he won the DPOY on 2 different occasions.

[Bob Dole]

I'm done with you idiots. The way you all talk about Hakeem and the arguments you have for his peak you would think that during those 2 years he was far and away the best player in the league like Michael was. He was right their with the other top players on the time level.

And post the stats then. He damn sure didnt have better stats than Larry and to me his stats werent better than Magic's either. It would only hurt your argument to post them.

[millwad]

I'm done with you idiots. The way you all talk about Hakeem and the arguments you have for his peak you would think that during those 2 years he was far and away the best player in the league like Michael was. He was right their with the other top players on the time level.

And post the stats then. He damn sure didnt have better stats than Larry and to me his stats werent better than Magic's either. It would only hurt your argument to post them.

Naw, how cute, are you upset that you're getting owned and that you don't add any valid arguments to the discussion? Poor baby.

Again a post without anything other than personal bias and stupdity. If you actually would know basketball you'd know that his '93 season was just as fine.

Olajuwon was clearly the best player in '94, some argue that he was should have been the MVP in '93 as well and we all know what Olajuwon did to the '95 NBA MVP.

Larry had no defense that can be compared to Olajuwon's and funny thing is that peak Bird scored less points per game in the playoffs compared to what Olajuwon did and last but not least, career wise Olajuwon has a higher point per game average in the playoffs compared to Bird.

[Bob Dole]

Naw, how cute, are you upset that you're getting owned and that you don't add any valid arguments to the discussion? Poor baby.

Again a post without anything other than personal bias and stupdity. If you actually would know basketball you'd know that his '93 season was just as fine.

Olajuwon was clearly the best player in '94, some argue that he was should have been the MVP in '93 as well and we all know what Olajuwon did to the '95 NBA MVP.

Larry had no defense that can be compared to Olajuwon's and funny thing is that peak Bird scored less points per game in the playoffs compared to what Olajuwon did and last but not least, career wise Olajuwon has a higher point per game average in the playoffs compared to Bird.

Lol, this dude really thinks hakeem was better than Larry Bird. Please

And no Barkley and Jordan were both easily better in 93. 94 I will give you that he was the best player but not a consensus at all. 95 Him outplaying David in one series doesnt make him the best player that year. Dirk isnt better than Lebron because he outplayed him in a series.
Saying Larry Bird has no defense or even bad defense lets me know you never watched him play. He was a very good defender. And stop picking and choosing which stats you want to use to fit your agenda.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Lol, this dude really thinks hakeem was better than Larry Bird. Please
Peak for Peak - he was.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I honestly can't decide between Kobe and Olajuwon in regards to peaks. But I have not doubt Kobe had a greater career.
:oldlol:

[Cold soul]

Hakeem
Kobe
Bird
Magic

[Bob Dole]

Peak for Peak - he was.

Who in NBA history has a better peak than hakeem then? Almost nobody is what it seems according to you guys. This will be funny

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Who in NBA history has a better peak than hakeem then? Almost nobody is what it seems according to you guys. This will be funny
Jordan, Shaq and maybe Lebron. Didn't see enough of Kareem/Wilt/Russell's best season to give an educated opinion so i won't include them.

[Bob Dole]

Jordan, Shaq and maybe Lebron.

I'll help you out. Heres some more:

Wilt, Duncan, Larry, Magic, Moses, Kareem,

Those are the ones I know for sure did. I wont even bring up the others that did but will cause a shitstorm in here.

[Ca$H]

opinions that are not backed up by data are useless. there is too much bias.
listing players 1-4 without data is just a waste.

[Odinn]

Listing bunch of numbers without any context and with some BS assumptions is 'the data' I guess.

Well done.

[fpliii]

This is such a bogus post and only shows personal opinions rather than any facts that can be used as arguments.

If anyone is not getting judged fairly it's Olajuwon, you can't see his defensive presence in a box score but you can see Magic and Bird's assists etc..

Bird never made any first ALL-NBA defensive teams and Magic never even made any ALL-NBA defensive teams at all. Olajuwon is the all-time leader in recorded blocks and he is top 10 in steals and he won the DPOY on 2 different occasions.
:applause:

[millwad]

Lol, this dude really thinks hakeem was better than Larry Bird. Please

And no Barkley and Jordan were both easily better in 93. 94 I will give you that he was the best player but not a consensus at all. 95 Him outplaying David in one series doesnt make him the best player that year. Dirk isnt better than Lebron because he outplayed him in a series.
Saying Larry Bird has no defense or even bad defense lets me know you never watched him play. He was a very good defender. And stop picking and choosing which stats you want to use to fit your agenda.

Yet another bogus post.

When in my post did I say that Hakeem was better than Larry Bird? If you have a hard time reading you shouldn't blame it on me.

Read the topic and read my posts for god sake. Neither Jordan or Barkley were "easily better" than Olajuwon in '93. Olajuwon came 2nd in the MVP voting and he had a massive year where he was the DPOY and played amazing basketball. The Rockets faced very controversial calls in the ending moments of game 7 against Seattle, they could have been very dangerous if they wouldn't have faced those calls.

And since you're underrating Olajuwon like crazy, look at his massive performance over 12 games in the playoffs of the '93 season:

25.7 points, 14 rebounds, 4.8 assists, 4.9 blocks and 1.8 steals per game


And no, Hakeem wasn't the best player in '95 because he outplayed Robinson, he is the best player because he won the ring while outplaying the MVP Robinson and also outplaying the guy who was 2nd on the MVP ranking that season.

And again, don't blame your terrible reading on me, I never wrote that Larry played bad defense. I wrote that his defense was not even close to the defense Hakeem played. And I am not the one cherry picking, you're only a clueless poster who is getting schooled.

[fpliii]

millwad's doing work in this thread.

I'm not looking to disrespect Bird, but Hakeem was insane.

[moe94]

I'll help you out. Heres some more:

Wilt, Duncan, Larry, Magic, Moses, Kareem,

Those are the ones I know for sure did. I wont even bring up the others that did but will cause a shitstorm in here.

:coleman:

[Audio One]

You're a clown if you actually want to go on with this. First you say that his team beat the opponents which is a statement a moron would make, in the '94 run there was no all-star caliber players but Olajuwon on the roster and they lacked in terms of having a 2nd option on offense. The 2nd option was Maxwell who averaged 13.8 points on pathetic 36% shooting.

Olajuwon destroyed Ewing and Robinson and yes, he outplayed Shaq in the finals. He clearly outplayed him in 2 of the games and the only game that belonged to Shaq in the '95 finals was game 1, a game where Olajuwon made the game winning shot.

And didn't Bird's teams and Magic's teams beat the opponents? Just look at the '86 roster of the Celtics for god sake, they had crazy much talent even without counting Bird in.



How are Bird and Magic vastly superior offensive players? Olajuwon has the highest point per game average of all centers in NBA history in the play-offs, Hakeem didn't lack any on offense, he didn't have the HOF teammates that Bird and Magic had next to their sides during their primes. Olajuwon didn't even have an all-star next to his side during the back to back's although in my book Drexler played like an all-star.

And Olajuwon has a huge advantage when it comes to defense over both of them.

Okay, so if he's SO good at carrying such rosters and players to championships, how come he wasn't doing it his entire career?

[riseagainst]

Okay, so if he's SO good at carrying such rosters and players to championships, how come he wasn't doing it his entire career?

most retarded logic i've ever seen/heard.

"How come he ONLY won once with a bad roster. No, let's punish him for NOT winning every year with a bad roster."

[Dr Hawk]

most retarded logic i've ever seen/heard.

"How come he ONLY won once with a bad roster. No, let's punish him for NOT winning every year with a bad roster."

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[T_L_P]

I don't think people really recognize how hard it is to carry a team to a 'ship, or how many times it has been done.

Since 1990, there have been only two (perhaps three with Dirk).

[MichaelCorleone]

Peak:

Hakeem > Bird > Magic > Kobe

[LAZERUSS]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

At those that rank Magic LAST in this group. The REALITY is, Magic has the best resume of that group, and it is CLEARLY better than Hakeem's.

Of course, Magic was the greatest "winner" in NBA HISTORY, too (yes, he even had a higher winning percentage than Bird.) And before someone jumps in and claims that he had Kareem...Magic's career W-L percentage was .740. His career W-L percentage without KAJ... .743 (and that includes Magic's 95-96 season, too.) In fact, in the seasons in which the two played together, but in which Kareem missed games, Magic's W-L percentage was .750 (24-8.) Oh, and Kareem's W-L percentage without Magic in those seasons? .604 (61-40.)

It's no coincidence that Magic, in his rookie season, took over an badly underachieving Laker team that had been nothing more than early round playoff cannon-fodder for years...and immediately led them to a world title. Nor is it a coincidence that, even after KAJ retired, the Lakers didn't miss a beat (going 63-19 and 58-24...and making yet another Finals.) And before some idiot claims that Magic didn't win a ring without KAJ...he most certainly won one DESPITE Abdul-Jabbar in '88, and likely would have easily won another in '87 without him, as well. In fact, you can make the argument that he DID win a ring without Kareem, in 1980, when KAJ missed the clinching game six...and in a game in which Magic just completely dominated in every facet.

It's also not a coincidence, that when Magic "retired", LA immediately plummetted to records of 43-39 and 39-43. In fact, he carried his last roster, which was on a severe decline, and injury-riddled, to the Finals. And without him...complete mediocrity.

He won THREE MVPs, THREE FMVP's (and he should have won another in '88), and again, was the greatest winner in NBA history.



Magic



Kobe, Bird, Hakeem.

[ArbitraryWater]

Bird
Hakeem
Magic
Kobe

[millwad]

:roll: :roll: :roll:


Of course, Magic was the greatest "winner" in NBA HISTORY, too (yes, he even had a higher winning percentage than Bird.) And before someone jumps in and claims that he had Kareem...Magic's career W-L percentage was .740. His career W-L percentage without KAJ... .743 (and that includes Magic's 95-96 season, too.) In fact, in the seasons in which the two played together, but in which Kareem missed games, Magic's W-L percentage was .750 (24-8.) Oh, and Kareem's W-L percentage without Magic in those seasons? .604 (61-40.)








How many titles did Magic win without Kareem?

Ethered.

[Audio One]

most retarded logic i've ever seen/heard.

"How come he ONLY won once with a bad roster. No, let's punish him for NOT winning every year with a bad roster."

You Olajuwon fans are the KING of moving the goalposts, and deflecting the topic at hand. It was a SIMPLE ****ING QUESTION, and yet there still deflection, and half-truths spewed.

Well, unless this post is an admission that he DIDN'T carry any team anywhere, or that he only had the ability to do it one year/played teams just as crappy as his, and beat the teams he was supposed to beat, then nevermind

[Pointguard]

How many titles did Magic win without Kareem?

Ethered.
Magic meant much more to Kareem than it was the other way around. In 88 Kareem was kind of in the way. Magic would have won in '91 if he didn't run into a very hungry Jordan and Pippen in the finals as well (Worthy and Scott got injured as well). Magic was always a contender and winner. And was the best team player ever, at least in the modern era.

[houston]

:roll: @ Hakeem peak. Dude won a championship as a third team all-nba performer. Robinson was just as his equal with production. At least

What Kobe did without Shaq is way superior than Hakeem.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Larry>Hakeem>Kobe>Magic

[I<3NBA]

Bird>Magic>Hakeem>Kobe

[millwad]

Magic meant much more to Kareem than it was the other way around. In 88 Kareem was kind of in the way. Magic would have won in '91 if he didn't run into a very hungry Jordan and Pippen in the finals as well (Worthy and Scott got injured as well). Magic was always a contender and winner. And was the best team player ever, at least in the modern era.

This post is pretty terrible, so Magic would have won if he didn't run into a hungry Jordan and Pippen. You could say this about so many teams and players, a terrible argument.

Magic was always a contender because of the roster he was on, he played with James Worthy who is one of the best SF's ever, Kareem who is the best center of all-time and he had very good role players by his side.

You mention '88, Kareem was getting up in age but Magic wasn't even the Finals MVP, Worthy was. The same Worthy was the one who sealed the deal as well in game 7 with his massive triple double a la:

36 points, 16 rebounds and 10 assists

[LAZERUSS]

This post is pretty terrible, so Magic would have won if he didn't run into a hungry Jordan and Pippen. You could say this about so many teams and players, a terrible argument.

Magic was always a contender because of the roster he was on, he played with James Worthy who is one of the best SF's ever, Kareem who is the best center of all-time and he had very good role players by his side.

You mention '88, Kareem was getting up in age but Magic wasn't even the Finals MVP, Worthy was. The same Worthy was the one who sealed the deal as well in game 7 with his massive triple double a la:

36 points, 16 rebounds and 10 assists


A typical dumbass response with no research.

Worthy's '88 Finals numbers...

22.0 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 4.4 apg, .491 FG%, .735 FT%


Magic's '88 Finals numbers...

21.0 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 13.0 apg, .550 FG%, .866 FT%.

Magic was ROBBED of the FMVP in '88.


As for "the best center of all-time"...

13.1 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 1.0 apg, .414 FG%, .714 FT%

And how about "the best center of all-time" in that game seven...

29 minutes, 4 pts, 3 rebs, 2 ast, 3 TOs, 1 blk, 5 PF, 2-7 FG/FGA, 0-0 FT/FTA.

That was arguably the WORST Finals series ever put up by a "GOAT" candidate, and the game seven surely was.


The reality was... the Lakers would have won a title with Carrot Top playing center that year.

[andgar923]

Hakeem
Bird
Magic
Kobe

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, Magic's TEAMS averaged slightly over 59 wins per season in his 12 full seasons of his career, and over 60 without KAJ. Hakeem's career high single season TEAM W-L record was 58-24.

[Bob Dole]

BTW, Magic's TEAMS averaged slightly over 59 wins per season in his 12 full seasons of his career, and over 60 without KAJ. Hakeem's career high single season TEAM W-L record was 58-24.

Perspective and context. They have none of it.

[Pointguard]

This post is pretty terrible, so Magic would have won if he didn't run into a hungry Jordan and Pippen. You could say this about so many teams and players, a terrible argument.
How is it that other teams could claim that Worthy and Scott were injured? How does that work. Jordan, while always motivated, was a maniac about proving himself. And he smelt blood and didn't rest. This was Jordan possessed. When Magic lost his second and third best players it was hard to say the least. If you don't understand this then you really aren't going to understand a whole lot.


Magic was always a contender because of the roster he was on, he played with James Worthy who is one of the best SF's ever, Kareem who is the best center of all-time and he had very good role players by his side.

You mention '88, Kareem was getting up in age but Magic wasn't even the Finals MVP, Worthy was. The same Worthy was the one who sealed the deal as well in game 7 with his massive triple double a la:

36 points, 16 rebounds and 10 assists

Lazzeruss already dealt with this. Worthy wasn't near Magic's level of play. Worthy, like Kareem largely benefitted from Magic's great ability to get the most out of his players. Magic could feature a player and they would blossum under him. Magic was about 2 notches above Stockton who might have been the second best feature/passer to Magic in the history of the game. The play of Olympic teams and all star teams dipped significantly when Stockton came in for Magic. Nash/Kidd after Stockton in ability to feature other players. . There are about five levels between Magic and Chris Paul. If you didn't see him play you really can't imagine his total control of the game. Kareem was talking about retiring before Magic came to the Lakers. He played 10 more years because Magic made the game so easy.

Magic exploited every positive in Kareem/Worthy's game to maximum effect, never mind exploiting the defensive teams flaws. Magic is the best example of a player making those around him better. He was the best winner in the most competitive era.

[Audio One]

:roll: @ Hakeem peak. Dude won a championship as a third team all-nba performer. Robinson was just as his equal with production. At least

What Kobe did without Shaq is way superior than Hakeem.

:applause:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVWFIGhD980

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckXT-d0pFPg

Kobe was havin' nikkas sayin' he was better than Jordan, or least as good. Beat better teams, with less talent on that repeat. Hakeem was NEVER ON THAT LEVEL

[millwad]

A typical dumbass response with no research.

Worthy's '88 Finals numbers...

22.0 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 4.4 apg, .491 FG%, .735 FT%


Magic's '88 Finals numbers...

21.0 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 13.0 apg, .550 FG%, .866 FT%.

Magic was ROBBED of the FMVP in '88.


As for "the best center of all-time"...

13.1 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 1.0 apg, .414 FG%, .714 FT%

And how about "the best center of all-time" in that game seven...

29 minutes, 4 pts, 3 rebs, 2 ast, 3 TOs, 1 blk, 5 PF, 2-7 FG/FGA, 0-0 FT/FTA.

That was arguably the WORST Finals series ever put up by a "GOAT" candidate, and the game seven surely was.


The reality was... the Lakers would have won a title with Carrot Top playing center that year.

Jlauber, you're such a dumbass and we know that you didn't see the series to start with.

First of all, the worst finals series ever put up by a "GOAT" candidate doesn't belong to Kareem. You're a joke if you're actually going to try to bash a 40 year old Kareem. Where was Wilt when he was 40? Oh, he retired at age 36.

And Worthy was definitely worth his name to get the Finals MVP, he had a dominant series and one of the greatest game 7's in NBA history. Magic definitely had a case as the FMVP as well but he didn't get robbed.

And now I don't see Wilt as a a GOAT-candidate but if he would be he would have a great case for the worst finals series ever by a GOAT candidate with his awful choking in the '69 finals where he gave the series away from the FT-line. Biggest choke job of all-time.

[millwad]

:applause:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVWFIGhD980

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckXT-d0pFPg

Kobe was havin' nikkas sayin' he was better than Jordan, or least as good. Beat better teams, with less talent on that repeat. Hakeem was NEVER ON THAT LEVEL

Jlauber, really?

Did you just write "nikkas", you're probably the most pathetic person I've come a cross on the internet.

[millwad]

Perspective and context. They have none of it.

Jlauber, don't you realize how pathetic you are?

You have everyone against you but 3 accounts you created in 2014 and the always retarded "Pointguard". You're failing in every aspect.