What can the Thunder get for Westbrook that allows them to still contend for a ring?

[WeGetRing2012]

I am a fan of Westbrook but Durant is not winning anything with him as the next best player. He doesnt play team ball and Durant will walk if he doesnt win a ring. Who can they get?

[VIntageNOvel]

too little too late

[WeGetRing2012]

Rondo and some 1st round picks this yr & next?

I think that may work.

[Thunderstruck]

This slump started before Westbrook came back. Losing to Orlando and down to the wire against the Lakers. They haven't been playing well for awhile now.

[VIntageNOvel]

Rondo and some 1st round picks this yr & next?

I think that may work.

yes, but the trade deadline is over,

should've trade goatbrook for pass first PG and a center

[Lamar Odumbb]

Trade him to the Sixers for their 1st round pick if thats possible. He could be Iverson next generation.

[WeGetRing2012]

yes, but the trade deadline is over,

should've trade goatbrook for pass first PG and a center

What about a draft night trade. With the Celtics keeping their lottery pick and trading their mid 1st rounder this year. Then the Thunder would have either 2 or 3 1st rounders this year plus Rondo. And the Celtics would have Westbrook plus their lottery pick (Exum,Parker,Randle,etc).

[WeGetRing2012]

Trade him to the Sixers for their 1st round pick if thats possible. He could be Iverson next generation.

The Sixers are gonna have a late lottery pick (so two lottery picks this year) but I don't think that enough for the Thunder to still contend.

[DMAVS41]

I proposed this trade before the deadline...

Westbrook, Thabo, Perry Jones, and the Dallas pick....

For;

Afflalo, Vucevic, Jameer Nelson, and the Magic's first round pick this year


Great trade for both teams imo...

[Jakeh008]

Kemba Walker and Al Jefferson

[WeGetRing2012]

I proposed this trade before the deadline...

Westbrook, Thabo, Perry Jones, and the Dallas pick....

For;

Afflalo, Vucevic, Jameer Nelson, and the Magic's first round pick this year


Great trade for both teams imo...

This is a good trade but I don't see why the Magic do this. They already have Oladipo and two lottery picks this year

[navy]

I proposed this trade before the deadline...

Westbrook, Thabo, Perry Jones, and the Dallas pick....

For;

Afflalo, Vucevic, Jameer Nelson, and the Magic's first round pick this year


Great trade for both teams imo...
Westbrook is worth to much to not get a legit star out of him

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=WeGetRing2012]This is a good trade but I don't see why the Magic do this. They already have Oladipo and two lottery picks this year

[Black and White]

Westbrook is worth to much to not get a legit star out of him

The Magic pick would be worth something tho

[VIntageNOvel]

Because Oladipo and WB would be great together

Afflalo and Nelson are gone regardless (so losing them doesn't mean anything)

So you are essentially getting WB and a first round pick for Vucevic and a top 5 pick....which any team would jump at for a top 8 player in the league

I like WB and wouldn't move him, but if I had to... a deal like this makes sense for both teams

yes,

and afflalo, even though a rental,
is legit 2nd option scorer (better than inconsistent k-mart) with good defence

westbrook and first for rubio and love

[Milbuck]

Goatbrook and Lamb for Wolters, Ilyasova, Sanders, and Knight

[russwest0]

:lol Trade deadline is over jackass

[VIntageNOvel]

Goatbrook and Lamb for Wolters, Ilyasova, Sanders, and Knight


westbrook for giannis, who says no?

[Milbuck]

westbrook for giannis, who says no?
:biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

[BigMacAttack]

Conley + Gasol for Russ and Perk.

[Milbuck]

Conley 9+ Gasol for Russ and Perk.
KD/Ibaka/Gasol front court..with a Conley/Lamb backcourt, and Jackson as a sixth man..

OKC would be unbeatable.

[AnaheimLakers24]

:lol Trade deadline is over jackass
:lol
retard op

[BigMacAttack]

KD/Ibaka/Gasol front court..with a Conley/Lamb backcourt, and Jackson as a sixth man..

OKC would be unbeatable.


Yeah I like that rotation a lot.

Salaries match but I dont know if Memphis makes that trade, they would be getting the best player in the deal so maybe.

[Rodmantheman]

http://pic.epicfail.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/defense-fail-lakers-okc-hump.jpg

[WeGetRing2012]

:lol Trade deadline is over jackass

Oh I missed where I mentioned anything about the trade deadline.

But I was thinking about this thing called the "future" when I thought the Thunder should maybe explore a trade.

[RoseCity07]

Westbrook belongs in New York. He's got the arrogance that just fits that city, and his play results in losing, which also fits well with the Knicks.

[RedBlackAttack]

[QUOTE=WeGetRing2012]This is a good trade but I don't see why the Magic do this. They already have Oladipo and two lottery picks this year

[guy]

KD/Ibaka/Gasol front court..with a Conley/Lamb backcourt, and Jackson as a sixth man..

OKC would be unbeatable.

That's really good. Not bad at all. I'm a proponent of possibly trading Westbrook if they keep having these same issues and don't win this year and that's probably the best trade I've heard so far.

[WeGetRing2012]

And the overrating of Oladipo continues...

Yes, don't consider a trade for Westbrook... You have Oladipo!

Well I meant that you have a young player already developing well in that position and it doesnt really make sense to trade away one of your best players this season (Affalo) and a young Center who has shown promise (Vucevic) and a lottery pick for Westbrook.

Affalo, Vucevic, Oladipo, and lottery pick >>>> Westbrook

No sense to take the Knicks route to get a star.

[sfballa13]

yes,

and afflalo, even though a rental,
is legit 2nd option scorer (better than inconsistent k-mart) with good defence

westbrook and first for rubio and love

This.

Came here to suggest the identical trade.

Rubio / Lamb / KD / Love / Ibaka

[DMAVS41]

Well I meant that you have a young player already developing well in that position and it doesnt really make sense to trade away one of your best players this season (Affalo) and a young Center who has shown promise (Vucevic) and a lottery pick for Westbrook.

Affalo, Vucevic, Oladipo, and lottery pick >>>> Westbrook

No sense to take the Knicks route to get a star.

What? You aren't losing Oladipo in my trade. You are keeping him!

Oladipo would be perfect to pair next to WB. They would be the best defensive backcourt in the league...and actually opens up Oladipo to do what he does best.

You are also ignoring that the Magic are getting back the Dallas first round pick...and Perry Jones III

So in reality it's;

Afflalo, Vucevic, Nelson, and a lottery pick for WB, Perry Jones, Thabo, and a first round Dallas pick

Nelson is irrelevant. Afflalo is opting out after next year and the Magic are either going to lose him or overpay him (trust me...pray you lose him)

And while Vucevic is good and losing a top pick stinks, WB is a legit superstar. The Magic would be lucky go get a player 75% as good as WB with their pick this year.

You really telling me that the Magic wouldn't trade Vucevic and the 4th pick for WB and the 20th pick? Because that is essentially what the deal boils down to give or take. Not to mention Perry Jones is really good.

The Magic already made a huge mistake not moving Afflalo...they better move him this summer or early next year or they are retarded.

[aboss4real24]

Deron williams would b perfect

a pg who knows his place,wont fire dum shots especially in the clutch

would get kd the ball and get the hell out the way

he does it wit joe johnson and paul pierce im sure would do it for KD Also

[miles berg]

Westbrook and Perk for Deron Williams and Brook Lopez.

[Milbuck]

Westbrook and Perk for Deron Williams and Brook Lopez.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[blacknapalm]

should have been pulled the trigger when rondo was hurt and wb was healthy. with rondo's contract, you probably could have got faverani or something too.

[miggyme1]

u guys just dont get it.

the addition of westbrook paired with kevin durant is what makes the thunder so special.

u give kevin durant a pg like deron williams and they wont even make it to the western finals. smh

[D-FENS]

The best trade would be a 3 teamer with BOS, LAL and OKC
I don't know specifics, but the major pieces being:
Rondo to OKC
Westbrook to LAL
Laker's pick (and future pick) to BOS and Steve Nash's broken down body

[Jasper]

Real point is (this discussion occurred many times) a PG is not that realitive for winning a ring.
Perfect ecample was the Bulls run as well as Miami's Pg.

They need to be defensive , bring ball up , and pop the occasional shoot or drive.
Harper as Chalmers are right there.

Westbrook would be better off , to be the force he is and become the SG.

Bring in a true PG.
-------
That being said , I'll stick with thread OP and say that even the league has excepted PG to become twinners, Rose , Rondo , Westbrook etc etc etc

Teague from the Hawks would be a better fit for Oak.

Durant can not burden the whole offense , like Bron in Cav land.
League has changed where you need a legit 3 star players to win it all.

This dates back to Knicks , Lakers and even my Bucks ring year with Kareem , Big O, and Bobby D.

[Mass Debator]

Yeah, Westbrook just has to slide into that SG role and sign Kyle Lowry next year.

[SexSymbol]

Go-ran Dra-gic

[scm5]

Conley + Gasol for Russ and Perk.

I think Memphis would take that trade if OKC throws in Lamb for Tony Allen.

Tony Allen would benefit OKC a lot as well, the dude is such a game changer defensively and only takes good looks.

[SexSymbol]

Rubio + Love for Westbrook.

OKC wouldn't do it, cause they're idiots, but Timberwolves would jump at this opportunity easily

[aboss4real24]

Rubio + Love for Westbrook.

OKC wouldn't do it, cause they're idiots, but Timberwolves would jump at this opportunity easily

if u think the wolves would that . ur an idiot

[SexSymbol]

if u think the wolves would that . ur an idiot
They would easily do it, Love will leave anyway, and Westbrook >>>>>>>>>>> rubio both in playing level and marketability, and the later is what Wolves desperately need.

[aj1987]

Rubio + Love for Westbrook.

OKC wouldn't do it, cause they're idiots, but Timberwolves would jump at this opportunity easily
Why the heck would the Wolves give up a top 5 player and a top 15 PG for a borderline top 10 player?! :facepalm

[SexSymbol]

Why the heck would the Wolves give up a top 5 player and a top 15 PG for a borderline top 10 player?! :facepalm
Nikka I hope you missed a 1 before 5.

[aj1987]

Nikka I hope you missed a 1 before 5.
27/13/4 on 60% isn't top 5? Don't even start with the team record, because his team sucks.

Bricky is offensively inept. Martin, Barea, and the lot suck defensively. Their bench is one of the work in the league. Also, Pekovic and Martin missing a bunch of games doesn't help. If they were in the East, they would've been a top 3 team and a couple of games above .500.

[DMAVS41]

27/13/4 on 60% isn't top 5? Don't even start with the team record, because his team sucks.

Bricky is offensively inept. Martin, Barea, and the lot suck defensively. Their bench is one of the work in the league. Also, Pekovic and Martin missing a bunch of games doesn't help. If they were in the East, they would've been a top 3 team and a couple of games above .500.

Doesn't matter...true superstars don't miss the playoffs with teams like the current Wolves...especially with a coach like Adelman.

Love is shooting 34% with a 13 PER in crunch time this year...can't do that and expect to win the great number of inevitable close games.

I like Love, and he's damn good, but he's not the type of guy that can carry an average team.

My guess is that he'll be absolutely great playing next to a player close to as good or better than he is

[aboss4real24]

They would easily do it, Love will leave anyway, and Westbrook >>>>>>>>>>> rubio both in playing level and marketability, and the later is what Wolves desperately need.

its not guaranteed Love will leave

even if he does ur not solving anything by trading him and rubio for wb

and Rubio>wb as a true pg

if ur the wolves u keep rubio and jus look foward to the draft

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Is he good? Can MIA get him?

[aboss4real24]

Kevin Love jus doesnt come off as a transcendent star

hes a 2nd option

he'll b gr8 as a 2nd option to a guy like melo harden kobe

[ArbitraryWater]

Rubio + Love for Westbrook.

OKC wouldn't do it, cause they're idiots, but Timberwolves would jump at this opportunity easily

No they wouldnt :facepalm Idiot

[Milbuck]

Kevin Love jus doesnt come off as a transcendent star

hes a 2nd option

he'll b gr8 as a 2nd option to a guy like melo harden kobe

Why the **** are all your posts in magenta?

[Mass Debator]

27/13/4 on 60% isn't top 5? Don't even start with the team record, because his team sucks.

Bricky is offensively inept. Martin, Barea, and the lot suck defensively. Their bench is one of the work in the league. Also, Pekovic and Martin missing a bunch of games doesn't help. If they were in the East, they would've been a top 3 team and a couple of games above .500.
I don't know how you got 60%?

[Rose'sACL]

I don't know how you got 60%?
i think he was talking about TS% as love takes a lot more 3s than most big men and makes them at a very good 38%.

[SexSymbol]

27/13/4 on 60% isn't top 5? Don't even start with the team record, because his team sucks.

Bricky is offensively inept. Martin, Barea, and the lot suck defensively. Their bench is one of the work in the league. Also, Pekovic and Martin missing a bunch of games doesn't help. If they were in the East, they would've been a top 3 team and a couple of games above .500.
He hasn't made playoffs with one of the best centers in the league besides him, and many shooters. He's the most overrated player in the league today, he's not even top 2 in his position

[Fiba basketball]

Westbrook for Rubio&Pekovic. OKC gets pass first pg in Rubio and dominant C in Pekovic.

[Andrei89]

I wonder if Miami can get him.

That would be sick.

:applause: :applause:

[Twiens]

Westbrook for Rubio&Pekovic. OKC gets pass first pg in Rubio and dominant C in Pekovic.

I actually like this, Pek is the low post scorer that OKC needs. Ibaka doesn't seem to do much other than mid-range jumpers these days.

[aj1987]

Doesn't matter...true superstars don't miss the playoffs with teams like the current Wolves...especially with a coach like Adelman.

Love is shooting 34% with a 13 PER in crunch time this year...can't do that and expect to win the great number of inevitable close games.

I like Love, and he's damn good, but he's not the type of guy that can carry an average team.

My guess is that he'll be absolutely great playing next to a player close to as good or better than he is
They're half a game under .500 with Pek and Martin missing a bunch of games. Martin, their 2nd best scorer is inconsistent as hell and shoots like crap. Can't do anything other than score (something which he's not very good at). Their bench is one of the worst in the league.

Love definitely deserves SOME blame for not performing in the "crunch", but when you look at his supporting cast, who's there to relieve some of the defensive pressure off of him? I've seen him get doubled and unable to pass the ball, which led to horrible off-balance shots, numerous times. Bricky is shooting 36% for the season. Barea? 40%. Martin? 43%. Budinger? 37%. Shved? 32%. etc. Honestly, who does he have to relieve some of the pressure off of him?

Put this team in the East, they're definitely sitting at #3, while being a couple of games above .500. This team is completely wrong for Love. He needs to be surrounded by shooters and defenders. Adelman is one of the most overrated coaches in the league as well.


He hasn't made playoffs with one of the best centers in the league besides him, and many shooters. He's the most overrated player in the league today, he's not even top 2 in his position
Bricky? Martin? Barea? Shved? You're an idiot.

[DMAVS41]

They're half a game under .500 with Pek and Martin missing a bunch of games. Martin, their 2nd best scorer is inconsistent as hell and shoots like crap. Can't do anything other than score (something which he's not very good at). Their bench is one of the worst in the league.

Love definitely deserves SOME blame for not performing in the "crunch", but when you look at his supporting cast, who's there to relieve some of the defensive pressure off of him? I've seen him get doubled and unable to pass the ball, which led to horrible off-balance shots, numerous times. Bricky is shooting 36% for the season. Barea? 40%. Martin? 43%. Budinger? 37%. Shved? 32%. etc. Honestly, who does he have to relieve some of the pressure off of him?

Put this team in the East, they're definitely sitting at #3, while being a couple of games above .500. This team is completely wrong for Love. He needs to be surrounded by shooters and defenders. Adelman is one of the most overrated coaches in the league as well.


Bricky? Martin? Barea? Shved? You're an idiot.


Again? So what? They don't play in the East...they play in the West. And his roster is good enough to make the playoffs if he's a legit superstar.

And you can't shrug off his crunch time play...his team is something like 2-11 in games that go into crunch time.

Nobody is asking him to win a title or even win a ****ing playoff series...we are asking him to make the damn playoffs...that is all.

And it's not even really a statement about Love as a player...it's a statement about Love as the main guy on an average team...and I just don't think he's cut out to carry a team like that. I think he's best suited to play on loaded teams with a player as good or better than him. Nothing wrong with that, many players are like that...I just don't see him as a championship first option. At this point anyway...that can definitely change.

[aj1987]

Again? So what? They don't play in the East...they play in the West. And his roster is good enough to make the playoffs if he's a legit superstar.
From my previous post.
Bricky is shooting 36% for the season. Barea? 40%. Martin? 43%. Budinger? 37%. Shved? 32%. etc.
Martin, their 2nd best scorer is inconsistent as hell and shoots like crap. Can't do anything other than score (something which he's not very good at). Their bench is one of the worst in the league.

That's not a good team. That's a lottery team.


And you can't shrug off his crunch time play...his team is something like 2-11 in games that go into crunch time.
With him being the only one who's some sort of threat, teams will start to double him. Once again, from my previous post.
I've seen him get doubled and unable to pass the ball, which led to horrible off-balance shots, numerous times. Bricky is shooting 36% for the season. Barea? 40%. Martin? 43%. Budinger? 37%. Shved? 32%. etc. Honestly, who does he have to relieve some of the pressure off of him?

He just needs some good and consistent shooters around him.



And it's not even really a statement about Love as a player...it's a statement about Love as the main guy on an average team...and I just don't think he's cut out to carry a team like that. I think he's best suited to play on loaded teams with a player as good or better than him. Nothing wrong with that, many players are like that...I just don't see him as a championship first option. At this point anyway...that can definitely change.
This is from my previous post as well.

This team is completely wrong for Love. He needs to be surrounded by shooters and defenders. The Wolves are an average because of Love. If he wasn't on that team, they wouldn't have won more than 5-10 games.

[DMAVS41]

From my previous post.
Bricky is shooting 36% for the season. Barea? 40%. Martin? 43%. Budinger? 37%. Shved? 32%. etc.
Martin, their 2nd best scorer is inconsistent as hell and shoots like crap. Can't do anything other than score (something which he's not very good at). Their bench is one of the worst in the league.

That's not a good team. That's a lottery team.


With him being the only one who's some sort of threat, teams will start to double him. Once again, from my previous post.
I've seen him get doubled and unable to pass the ball, which led to horrible off-balance shots, numerous times. Bricky is shooting 36% for the season. Barea? 40%. Martin? 43%. Budinger? 37%. Shved? 32%. etc. Honestly, who does he have to relieve some of the pressure off of him?

He just needs some good and consistent shooters around him.



This is from my previous post as well.

This team is completely wrong for Love. He needs to be surrounded by shooters and defenders. The Wolves are an average because of Love. If he wasn't on that team, they wouldn't have won more than 5-10 games.

Again, from my previous post...all excuses that every single player without a loaded team has to deal with in some form or another.

Just look at the current Mavs. Harris and Wright missed a lot of time. We had Larkin and Mekel playing significant time throughout the early part of the season. Our center position is a joke. Dalembert is awful, Blair is undersized, and Wright is way too weak.

We are playing Crowder significantly more minutes a game than Shved...

You also ignore that the Wolves play quality defense...ranked 8th in the league (made even more impressive as they play at the 3rd fastest pace) Also have the 9th best offense.

I could say the same shit for Dirk...who does he have to help out defensively? Calderon is awful defensively...and again, our center position is beyond pathetic defensively...we have the 23rd ranked defense.

This team is completely wrong for Dirk. He needs better defenders and rebounders around him. If he wasn't on the team they'd have win 15 or so games to date.

See? It's all the same shit...there is absolutely no valid reason the Mavs should be 13 games over .500 while the Wolves are 1 game under .500...that is, if Love is a true superstar...

Again, from my previous post, what we are asking is not much...it's just making the playoffs. And hopefully they do, they could go on a run...they have an expected win loss of 36-21...ROFL

And I'm not even one of those Love haters that thinks he's horrid on defense or doesn't dramatically help the Wolves. That isn't the debate...it's just that a true superstar doesn't finish under .500 with this roster.

[aj1987]

Again, from my previous post...all excuses that every single player without a loaded team has to deal with in some form or another.

Just look at the current Mavs. Harris and Wright missed a lot of time. We had Larkin and Mekel playing significant time throughout the early part of the season. Our center position is a joke. Dalembert is awful, Blair is undersized, and Wright is way too weak.

We are playing Crowder significantly more minutes a game than Shved...
The Mav's are shooting 47 and 38. The Wolves? 44 and 34. Dirk's second best player is scoring 19 on 46% TS. Third? 12 on 45% (45% from 3 as well, on 5.5 attempts a game). Not to mention Marion, who's another 11 PPG scorer on 47%. This would actually be the ideal team for Love. As I said in my earlier post, surround Love with shooters and decent defenders, he'll give you results. Dude is scoring 27/13/4 on 60% TS FFS. Oh, and I totally forgot about Vince Carter coming off the bench. He's shooting 37% from the the. You see, what the Mav's players are shooting from the 3, the Wolves players are, from the 2. I'm not taking away anything from Dirk. He's having a fantastic season and is actually changing my mind on my ranking of Wade above him (all-time), but Love on the current Mav's would actually produce same to better results.


You also ignore that the Wolves play quality defense...ranked 8th in the league (made even more impressive as they play at the 3rd fastest pace) Also have the 9th best offense.
Who do you think is running the offense? The Wolves would be at the bottom of the league without Love's 27 on 60%. Their defense was possible because of Pekovic. They've given up over their average points allowed 9 times out of 13 games that he has missed. If he missed more games, their DRtg is gonna come down as well.


This team is completely wrong for Dirk. He needs better defenders and rebounders around him. If he wasn't on the team they'd have win 15 or so games to date.
Agreed, he would lead a team to a top 3 record, given the right team. Dude has been AMAZING this season.



Again, from my previous post, what we are asking is not much...it's just making the playoffs. And hopefully they do, they could go on a run...they have an expected win loss of 36-21...ROFL
Unless some of the role players start shooting a bit better, they won't. They don't even need to shoot something like 45%. Anything between 40 and 42 should do.


And I'm not even one of those Love haters that thinks he's horrid on defense or doesn't dramatically help the Wolves. That isn't the debate...it's just that a true superstar doesn't finish under .500 with this roster.
I know that you aren't. You're one of the posters that I actually like on this board, even though we disagree on a bunch of stuff.

[DMAVS41]

The Mav's are shooting 47 and 38. The Wolves? 44 and 34. Dirk's second best player is scoring 19 on 46% TS. Third? 12 on 45% (45% from 3 as well, on 5.5 attempts a game). Not to mention Marion, who's another 11 PPG scorer on 47%. This would actually be the ideal team for Love. As I said in my earlier post, surround Love with shooters and decent defenders, he'll give you results. Dude is scoring 27/13/4 on 60% TS FFS. Oh, and I totally forgot about Vince Carter coming off the bench. He's shooting 37% from the the. You see, what the Mav's players are shooting from the 3, the Wolves players are, from the 2. I'm not taking away anything from Dirk. He's having a fantastic season and is actually changing my mind on my ranking of Wade above him (all-time), but Love on the current Mav's would actually produce same to better results.


Who do you think is running the offense? The Wolves would be at the bottom of the league without Love's 27 on 60%. Their defense was possible because of Pekovic. They've given up over their average points allowed 9 times out of 13 games that he has missed. If he missed more games, their DRtg is gonna come down as well.


Agreed, he would lead a team to a top 3 record, given the right team. Dude has been AMAZING this season.



Unless some of the role players start shooting a bit better, they won't. They don't even need to shoot something like 45%. Anything between 40 and 42 should do.


I know that you aren't. You're one of the posters that I actually like on this board, even though we disagree on a bunch of stuff.

A couple things;


1. The current Mavs are not the perfect team for Love. We are horrid defensively...horrid. No doubt it's better than his current situation, but not by a ton.

2. We seem to agree for the most part. I am giving Love credit for his team being expected to be 15 games over .500 given their play. And he deserves it...the Wolves aren't that good and if they had their expected win loss record...he'd have a legit case for MVP. The Wolves are top 10 in both offense and defense. Again...credit to Love...especially for the offense. For those that say he's a terrible defender...they are wrong. The Wolves are better defensively with him on the court and his defensive rebounding is huge.

3. Here is where we disagree. When a team has an expected 36-21 record...and in reality they have an under .500 record. I think a lot of blame goes to the star of the team. In this case...it's evident a lot (not all mind you) should go to Love because of his poor play late in close games. I understand it's not an ideal circumstance, but even Dirk is outplaying him late in close games (and Dirk has struggled late in games this year after a great beginning...he looks tired late in games to me)

I talked with a lot of Love fans early on this year. And we all agreed that making the playoffs was a fair standard to judge Love on. And I still stand by that.