Phil Jackson: "Dynasty Put to bed because of Shaq's Clown Role"

[HOoopCityJones]

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/02/phil-jackson-shaquille-oneal-kobe-bryant-lakers/

That Ether.

“Shaq didn’t work at it,” Jackson said. “Michael was able to succeed despite all kinds of limitations in his game. He couldn’t hit an outside shot. He couldn’t defend. But all of that went away because of his work ethic. Kobe saw that as a pinnacle that he had to reach, and he took it to a whole new level.”

“Shaq had a clown role he had to play,” he said. “So that was part of the rift.”


If this doesn't put the Kobe ran Shaq out of town rumors to bed, idk what will.

[Random_Guy]

not contradictory imo. Im not one of the believers that kobe ran shaq out of town, but i do believe that they could have four peated, if not more had the duo stuck together.

[KrizMiz]

phil still mad ?

[HOoopCityJones]

Phil is just finally speaking the truth.

Instead of taking up for a man child because he was the face of the League at the time.

[imdaman99]

Well yeah, that was one of the reasons Kobe chased Shaq out. He saw Shaq was not dedicated to greatness. And he couldn't really bully Shaq since Shaq outweighed him by 150. I'm sure another reason Kobe chased him out was because he wanted to prove he could win without him. Kobe, a true alpha :rockon:

[red1]

Not buying it. Kobe ran shaq out town. Period.

[HOoopCityJones]

The great Leadership of Shaq:

“I got hurt on company time, so I’ll rehab on company time.”– Shaq before the ’02 season began. He had a bad toe and instead of getting surgery early in the summer, he waited until the Lakers’ pre-season began in ’02 to get the operation. That phrase he uttered showed his attitude and work ethic. It proves Shaq only considered basketball a seasonal job, not a year-round one.

“Pat Riley is the best coach I’ve had”– Said by Shaq in June of 2006 when hehelped the Heat win their first title. It’s one thing to praise your coach, which Shaq did, but he was making a point to tell the world Riley was better than Phil Jackson. There’s nothing wrong with thinking that, but it’s the timing of his announcement. Saying it privately to a reporter is one thing, but announcing it to the world the moment you win a title just makes you seem like you have a major vendetta. Clearly Shaq harbored a lot of hate in his heart and it manifested itself in many classless ways.

“Pay me, Pay me”– Yelled by Shaq at Lakers owner Jerry Buss during a 2003 preseason game in Hawaii. It shows that Shaq’s motivation is money, that he didn’t have the tact to handle things off the court, and it just shows his utter lack of class. Can you imagine any other player scolding his owner and demanding that the owner pays them in the middle of a game? Nobody else would pull off a stunt like that.

“Kobe, tell me how my ass tastes”– June, 2008, Shaq said this in a rap song he performed on stage. The rap was caught on camera and shared around the internet. Once again it shows that Shaq needs to get the last word, that he’s always in attack mode, and that he can’t let things go. He also looks foolish because Kobe ended up winning two rings without him and has more titles: five to four.

[Trollsmasher]

Not buying it. Kobe ran shaq out town. Period.

[iamgine]

"Kobe saw that as a pinnacle that he had to reach, and he took it to a whole new level."
So Phil's saying Kobe took MJ's work ethic to a whole new level then?

[HOoopCityJones]

Not buying it. Kobe ran shaq out town. Period.

Because you can't read. :roll:

[ArbitraryWater]

Shaq is a tough character to deal with. Same could be said for young Bynum, who Kobe (needed to) put in his place.

Why did Kobe and Howard clash? Still not see a reason/explanation for that. Maybe Kobe didn't respect his work ethic? The way he approached the game, not taking their craft as serious ala Shaq?

Like said, Kobe seems like someone where he'll get your back through anything if he likes you but if he doesn't he's one of the worst people possible to be around.

Basketball is Kobe's life. I'm sure he loves the Game, the Court, the Hardwood more than his kids and wife. Remember how Kobe never wanted to join his teammates late 90's/early 00's when they went out? Of course that's not being a great friend/teammate, but then again he felt like he didn't need that. No drinking, partying, drugs.

Kobe grew up in Italy, constantly on the run, and never really had friends for his entire youth.

Simply put, Kobe is a lone wolf, he doesn't give a fcuk about anyone&anything else but the one thing that he has sticked with, and has sticked with him, his entire life, Basketball.


Edit: Got to respect his dedication and love for the Game.

[HOoopCityJones]

Shaq is a tough character to deal with. Same could be said for young Bynum, who Kobe (needed to) put in his place.

Why did Kobe and Howard clash? Still not see a reason/explanation for that. Maybe Kobe didn't respect his work ethic? The way he approached the game, not taking their craft as serious ala Shaq?

Like said, Kobe seems like someone where he'll get your back through anything if he likes you but if he doesn't he's one of the worst people possible to be around.

Basketball is Kobe's life. I'm sure he loves the Game, the Court, the Hardwood more than his kids and wife. Remember how Kobe never wanted to join his teammates late 90's/early 00's when they went out? Of course that's not being a great friend/teammate, but then again he felt like he didn't need that. No drinking, partying, drugs.

Kobe grew up in Italy, constantly on the run, and never really had friends for his entire youth.

Simply put, Kobe is a lone wolf, he doesn't give a fcuk about anyone&anything else but the one thing that he has sticked with, and has sticked with him, his entire life, Basketball.

Wish I could rep ya.

And ya , Dwight's proven himself to be an even bigger Clown than Shaq, not as destructive , but every bit the attention whore.

[MichaelCorleone]

How much did Kobe pay Phil to say that?

[Kblaze8855]

If this doesn't put the Kobe ran Shaq out of town rumors to bed, idk what will.

Nothing ever is. They had issues. Well reported issues. Kobe stays Shaq goes after months of talk about if they could coexist going forward and all. Kobe signed a 7 year 130 million dollar deal literally the DAY AFTER Shaq was traded to Miami. The very next day.

Plenty of Laker fans were on here saying Kobe had run shaq out of town at the time. And even more when Kobe later demanded to be traded. The Kobe trade demand topics were a good place to see how people really felt.

I doubt Kobe told them to get rid of shaq. I believe him when he says they did what they had to do....but it always seemed pretty clear he no longer wanted to play with Shaq. And them doing what they had to do...was putting the team in his hands and ending the drama.

They got rid of shaq...he signed in the morning. Maybe its not running him out. But it had run its course. He doesnt have to say the words "Get rid of him" for that to appear to be how he wants it to go.

You can blame whoever you wish. But the Shaq/Kobe thing was over. Kobe was a free agent. Shaq wanted 100 million.

They made a call.

[red1]

Because you can't read. :roll:
Oh yeah? Keep that up and this thread will be reported as an agenda thread. You have been warned.

[gts]

Basketball is Kobe's life. I'm sure he loves the Game, the Court, the Hardwood more than his kids and wife. Remember how Kobe never wanted to join his teammates late 90's/early 00's when they went out? Of course that's not being a great friend/teammate, but then again he felt like he didn't need that. No drinking, partying, drugs.

Kobe grew up in Italy, constantly on the run, and never really had friends for his entire youth.

Simply put, Kobe is a lone wolf, he doesn't give a fcuk about anyone&anything else but the one thing that he has sticked with, and has sticked with him, his entire life, Basketball. Obviously Kobe takes the game serious, as you should when you're getting paid money by the boat load :lol


But you have to remember Kobe didn't turn 21 until 99... Shaq even admitted he used to invite the team to clubs knowing Kobe could even get in so some of what you point out as a character flaw is actually due to his age and Shaq's own immaturity/insecurities

[SwayDizzle]

Shaq is a tough character to deal with. Same could be said for young Bynum, who Kobe (needed to) put in his place.

Why did Kobe and Howard clash? Still not see a reason/explanation for that. Maybe Kobe didn't respect his work ethic? The way he approached the game, not taking their craft as serious ala Shaq?

Like said, Kobe seems like someone where he'll get your back through anything if he likes you but if he doesn't he's one of the worst people possible to be around.

Basketball is Kobe's life. I'm sure he loves the Game, the Court, the Hardwood more than his kids and wife. Remember how Kobe never wanted to join his teammates late 90's/early 00's when they went out? Of course that's not being a great friend/teammate, but then again he felt like he didn't need that. No drinking, partying, drugs.

Kobe grew up in Italy, constantly on the run, and never really had friends for his entire youth.

Simply put, Kobe is a lone wolf, he doesn't give a fcuk about anyone&anything else but the one thing that he has sticked with, and has sticked with him, his entire life, Basketball.


Edit: Got to respect his dedication and love for the Game.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[MichaelCorleone]

Don't buy it.

[HOoopCityJones]

Nothing ever is. They had issues. Well reported issues. Kobe stays Shaq goes after months of talk about if they could coexist going forward and all. Kobe signed a 7 year 130 million dollar deal literally the DAY AFTER Shaq was traded to Miami. The very next day.

Plenty of Laker fans were on here saying Kobe had run shaq out of town at the time. And even more when Kobe later demanded to be traded.

I doubt Kobe told them to get rid of shaq. I believe him when he says they did what they had to do....but it always seemed pretty clear he no longer wanted to play with Shaq.

They got rid of shaq...he signed in the morning. Maybe its not running him out. But it had run its course. He doesnt have to say the words "Get rid of him" for that to appear to be how he wants it to go.

You can blame whoever you wish. But the Shaq/Kobe thing was over. Kobe was a free agent. Shaq wanted 100 million.

They made a call.

I fully get the business side of things.

But all of those years media has lead us to believe Shaq was the Leader who tried to keep the Team together while Kobe was the poison who wanted more money and the Alpha role over Shaq so they split.

If anything Kobe just wanted to play ball and create a legacy , while by many accounts at that point Shaq had settled and his NightLife/Hollywood life in L.A. was bigger than Basketball.

[Real Men Wear Green]

There are no doubt a number of reasons why the Lakers chose to trade Shaq. I believe the feud was part of it but if that was all there was to it they wouldn't have traded him. They three-peated and made a fourth Finals through that feud, they could definitely have lived with it if that was all there was to it.

What I found more interesting, or just weird, is the following quote:[QUOTE]

[iamgine]

[QUOTE=HOoopCityJones]The great Leadership of Shaq:

[Legends66NBA7]

People need to stop blaming 1 guy for everything. It's always been between Bryant, O'Neal, and Jackson. Whether you blame 1 guy more than other is fine, but don't just put it all one player for ruining what they could have potentially had.

Besides, like others have mentioned, the management probably wouldn't have kept them together after 2004.

[lakers_forever]

What I found more interesting, or just weird, is the following quote:PJ said MJ couldn't defend? What?

I think he meant MJ could not defend and shoot from the outside earlier in his career, but he ha such dedication that he became great in those as well by trainning harder than everyone else.

[HOoopCityJones]

Oh yeah? Keep that up and this thread will be reported as an agenda thread. You have been warned.

I'm shaking. :confusedshrug:

Go run tell that.

Ain't no agenda just fruitful discussion, you're the one with an agenda if anything the way you replied to the thread.

Also, make up your mind , either you wanna be super troll or a mod-holy-grail poster, you can't be both.

[oh the horror]

So Phil's saying Kobe took MJ's work ethic to a whole new level then?



I took it as Kobe took his own game to a whole new level. But who knows

[HOoopCityJones]

There are no doubt a number of reasons why the Lakers chose to trade Shaq. I believe the feud was part of it but if that was all there was to it they wouldn't have traded him. They three-peated and made a fourth Finals through that feud, they could definitely have lived with it if that was all there was to it.

What I found more interesting, or just weird, is the following quote:PJ said MJ couldn't defend? What?

Once you realize that Pippen was the goto Defender of those Bulls squads, you'll probably become a better Basketball fan for it. Don't believe ESPN hype.

[sbw19]

It really boils down to both wanting $$$ and team-leader role. To me the real question is why did both Shaq and Phil have to leave.

[imdaman99]

There are no doubt a number of reasons why the Lakers chose to trade Shaq. I believe the feud was part of it but if that was all there was to it they wouldn't have traded him. They three-peated and made a fourth Finals through that feud, they could definitely have lived with it if that was all there was to it.

What I found more interesting, or just weird, is the following quote:PJ said MJ couldn't defend? What?
He said all of it went away because of his work ethic. Was MJ known as a defensive beast coming out of college?

[ArbitraryWater]

Nothing ever is. They had issues. Well reported issues. Kobe stays Shaq goes after months of talk about if they could coexist going forward and all. Kobe signed a 7 year 130 million dollar deal literally the DAY AFTER Shaq was traded to Miami. The very next day.

Plenty of Laker fans were on here saying Kobe had run shaq out of town at the time. And even more when Kobe later demanded to be traded.

I doubt Kobe told them to get rid of shaq. I believe him when he says they did what they had to do....but it always seemed pretty clear he no longer wanted to play with Shaq.

They got rid of shaq...he signed in the morning. Maybe its not running him out. But it had run its course. He doesnt have to say the words "Get rid of him" for that to appear to be how he wants it to go.

You can blame whoever you wish. But the Shaq/Kobe thing was over. Kobe was a free agent. Shaq wanted 100 million.

They made a call.


The thing bothering me now, is Shaq&Kobe, and the Media, now acting like that wasn't even a big deal, as if they never really fueded and their departure had nothing to do with the other.

These 2 had major issues, and at one point, probably 2004, hated each other. Going to the front office talking sh*t about the other.

Heck, after Kobe complained about Shaq's weight he came with into Summer camp, Shaq made comments on how he'd kill Kobe if he ever does that again...

Shaq got away with a lot of shit back then.

Wikipedia Page: "Shaq-Kobe feud" basically covers the whole thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaq%E2%80%93Kobe_feud

[Real Men Wear Green]

I think he meant MJ could not defend and shoot from the outside earlier in his career, but he ha such dedication that he became great in those as well by trainning harder than everyone else.
I know he wasn't a great shooter but he was a known stopper.
Once you realize that Pippen was the goto Defender of those Bulls squads, you'll probably become a Basketball fan for it. Don't believe ESPN hype.
MJ won DPoY. No thank you for your flawed attempt at educating.

[HOoopCityJones]

It really boils down to both wanting $$$ and team-leader role. To me the real question is why did both Shaq and Phil have to leave.


People have to realize , while there was beef on the surface, there was even deeper shit going on behind the scenes , Phil and Jerry never got along as well as people may remember, hell even in the back-to-back championships.

If a man tells his Son to supposedly hire D'antoni over Phil on his death bead, there must be something going on there.

[Real Men Wear Green]

He said all of it went away because of his work ethic. Was MJ known as a defensive beast coming out of college?
It's not the same as the NBA level but in college Jordan first got minutes from Dean Smith for his defense, not scoring.

[HOoopCityJones]

MJ won DPoY. No thank you for your flawed attempt at educating.

Like I said , hype.

Pippen's always been the better defender.

Who did Jordan put the clamps on, Jon Stockton? :oldlol:

[Legends66NBA7]

The thing bothering me now, is Shaq&Kobe, and the Media, now acting like that wasn't even a big deal, as if they never really fueded and their departure had nothing to do with the other.

These 2 had major issues, and at one point, probably 2004, hated each other. Going to the front office talking sh*t about the other.

Heck, after Kobe complained about Shaq's weight he came with into Summer camp, Shaq made comments on how he'd kill Kobe if he ever does that again...

Shaq got away with a lot of shit back then.

Wikipedia Page: "Shaq-Kobe feud" basically covers the whole thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaq%E2%80%93Kobe_feud

I'd throw in this too:

http://www.yaysports.com/nba/2005/09/shaq_slapped_kobe_but_good.html

[Kblaze8855]

Reading an old Kobe demands out topic I came across this from him talking on LA radio....




Jerry buss convinced me to stay. normally takes 9 or 10 years to rebuild dynasty. that was my concern. are you guys on a long term plan or try to rebuild now and be aggressive with it? they promised me they'd do whatever they can to go get players. they don't want to wait. that swayed my decision.

This is really hard. i don't want to seem like I'm bashing anybody. you have to right the ship. you look at what KG is going thru in minny. I don't want that. i thought it was time to step up and voice my opinion. didn't happen all of a sudden, it's been going on past 3 years. we've been talking about players with management. baron called me. boozer called me. Artest called me. I'm gonna call Mitch and hit you back. Everytime i call them back it's a different reason (baron- injury prone, boozer- can't guard 4s).

They traded my man, my guy Caron Butler which made me feel terrible. we trained together every morning. asked his thoughts AFTER the trade.

Enough is enough. Thats why I've been vocal.

Trusts West so much. He loves that he would come up to him and say "kobe, you're playing like crap, involve your teammates"


"This really pisses me off. ive had many media people who told me that the lakers let me take the bullet for this one. i took it in stride the first time cuz i assumed it was just talk. now its coming from laker insider and i wont take it anymore. i'm not rolling with it. buss was there at the 4 seasons and told me he wanted to trade shaq. now i have serious trust issues. they know i had nothing to do with it because it came out of buss' own mouth. he stressed to me the importance of re-signing.

Front Office is a mess. I'm not dissing anyone. I want us to go after a title. But now all this stuff going and hes being used as a scapegoat with this Laker insider.

Hasnt recieved one phone call or contact from Buss since the exit interviews.

He doesn't know what the future holds.

He talked to Phil yesterday. He was training yesterday, working on defense a lot.

There are serious trust issues. When he saw that insider say that about him demanding Shaq out, he called Phil. Phil told him about the whole Lakers wanting to scale back and long term plan so they traded Shaq for that. That is drastically different what they told him. THey said NOTHING to him about a long term plan. NOTHING AT ALL. So now hes sitting here last three years excited telling Mitch when Davis, Artest, Boozer call him NOT knowing anything about long term plan.

[Kblaze8855]

Seems like Kobe is saying Buss told him at dinner he would get rid of Shaq and stressed the importnce of Kobe then resigning.

Which adds to the idea that the Lakers chose to get rid of Shaq to make Kobe more willing to return...but doesnt show that Kobe directly told them to do it. Which I dont think many believe anyway.

[sbw19]

If a man tells his Son to supposedly hire D'antoni over Phil on his death bead, there must be something going on there.
Oh, so now it's Jerry's influence (same guy who hired Phil back) and not Jim's issues with Phil that caused MDA's hiring? You could buy that, I don't.

[Legends66NBA7]

Like I said , hype.

Pippen's always been the better defender.

It's actually the opposite. Been debunked.

I remember during Jordan's retirement in 2003, players like Barkley, Magic, etc... were saying he was the best defensive player on the perimeter too.

[BoutPractice]

I think it was almost impossible for Shaq and Kobe to stay longer than they already had. Given the two personalities, how dominant they both were (and how much money they commanded) there was a built in expiration date to their duo. I never bought the "what if they'd stayed together" scenario. It's already amazing that Phil could make it work so well.

[HOoopCityJones]

Oh, so now it's Jerry's influence (same guy who hired Phil back) and not his Jim's issues with Phil that caused MDA's hiring? You could buy that, I don't.
:no:

Trust me I don't.

It doesn't even look right typing it , but that's what the words is, and there's no doubt Jerry and Phil had their differences.

But I don't honestly believe he told Jimmy boy that for a second , it was too last minute for one.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Like I said , hype.

Pippen's always been the better defender.

Who did Jordan put the clamps on, Jon Stockton? :oldlol:
Like you would even know? I bet MJ's DPoY happened before you were even born. You don't even understand Jackson's quote. He said MJ wasn't a good defender and became one because of his work ethic. Pippen played the stopper role because Jordan was carrying the offense and no great team makes one player do everything. MJ could definitely defend.

[VIntageNOvel]

he didnt really ran him out of the town,
but kobe was still the reason why lakers trade shaq,
if there was no kobe, they wouldnt trade shaq


and their relationship wasnt really great either,
ive read somewhere that kobe feel that his teammates didnt support him through the colorado case,

and yes about shaq's work ethique, imagine you work your ass off to achieve your goal, but your partner being a lazy douchebag, im sure you want to punch him in the face

[HOoopCityJones]

It's actually the opposite. Been debunked.

I remember during Jordan's retirement in 2003, players like Barkley, Magic, etc... were saying he was the best defensive player on the perimeter too.

By what exactly?

[HOoopCityJones]

Like you would even know? I bet MJ's DPoY happened before you were even born. You don't even understand Jackson's quote. He said MJ wasn't a good defender and became one because of his work ethic. Pippen played the stopper role because Jordan was carrying the offense and no great team makes one player do everything. MJ could definitely defend.

How the phuck I didn't understand it when you were the one confused?

I knew Phil wasn't calling Jordan a shitty defender , unlike some.

[gts]

Oh, so now it's Jerry's influence (same guy who hired Phil back) and not Jim's issues with Phil that caused MDA's hiring? You could buy that, I don't.

Buss was never fond of Jackson, he viewed him more as a necessary evil..

he let him walk in 2004 and then again later, he could have easily made room in the organization for Jackson in another role had he wanted to just like he had done for others he felt loyal too... The Lakers are full of people who had once been players or coaches that have found a home within the team in another role...

Even this last time around people who cover the Lakers say it was Dr. Buss that chose D'Antoni over Jackson.

Jackson caused a lot of friction within the organization Buss had worked hard to build, Jerry West left inpart because of Jackson, Jackson admitted in his book he fed the Shaq Kobe feud and later he demanded Buss trade Kobe.

Buss chose Kobe over Jackson as well as Kobe over Shaq

[sbw19]

But I don't honestly believe he told Jimmy boy that for a second , it was too last minute for one.

I hear you. Still it's one thing to have issues, totally another to base your hiring on personal feelings rather than business acumen, assuming they were true. I just don't buy how Dr. Buss could've had that kind of success with the supposed decision-making of an emotional child. And to tarnish anyone's legacy let alone Dr. Buss's with such non-sense is just wrong.

[ArbitraryWater]

I'd throw in this too:

http://www.yaysports.com/nba/2005/09/shaq_slapped_kobe_but_good.html

That's a great link I'm reading right now. Everybody should.

People now say "the feud" and that's it with adressing the topic.

That shit went DEEP. Started very early, and had to do with their personalities, to how they played, off court, trust, etc.

Playing wise, I would hang it against Kobe for his selfish play. ESPECIALLY in the 2004 Finals. That was the pinnacle of it. Should have rode Shaq, but refused to. Instead, hurt his team by doing so.

However, between the 2, Shaq seems to be the one who distracted more off the court/in the media.

Then again, Kobe brought so much trouble with his rape tale. I can understand why&how Phil&Shaq were pissed off.

http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/brutal-rape-tale-kobe-accuser-grabbed-bent-chair-article-1.527408

I gained huge respect&love for Kobe over the last year or so. But I never really confronted myself with the actual story.

This is sick.

Article:

The Colorado woman who said she was raped by Kobe Bryant told cops the basketball star bent her over a chair and assaulted her while she sobbed and told him to stop, a detective testified yesterday. "You're not going to tell anyone about this, right?" Bryant said as his hands gripped her throat, the young woman told police.

Through it all, Bryant, 25, listened without emotion. He contends the sex was consensual but faces up to life in prison if a jury doesn't agree. "The testimony given by the detective was very damning to Kobe," said former Denver District Attorney Norm Early. "Most first-time lovers don't have sex over the top of a chair for five minutes."

Blood on his shirt In another potentially damning revelation, Winters said investigators found blood on the hem of Bryant's shirt that matched the alleged victim's DNA. Most legal experts expected that the L.

Back in his room, she showed him a tattoo on her ankle but declined his offer to join him in the hot tub, Winters said. "He began kissing her, kissing her mouth, kissing her neck, which she agreed to," the detective said. When Bryant began groping her, the woman said she tried to flee but the athlete barred her way and grabbed her by the neck, Winters said. "She was afraid that he was going to choke her."

Then, the woman said, Bryant turned her around, pushed her against a chair, pulled down her panties and raped her. She tearfully said "no" twice but was ignored, Winters said. At one point, Bryant "stated that he liked Vail, Colo.," he said. Five minutes later, it was over, Winters said, and Bryant made her kiss his genitals. Then he told her to "go clean up."

The woman finished her shift and on the way out told bellhop Bobby Pietrack what happened, Winters said. Pietrack, 22, was so concerned he followed her home. The next day, the woman reported the rape to cops. Winters said she complained of ******l bleeding and a nurse who examined her found evidence of a sexual assault.

My Comment: Just sad&disgusting. Looks to be true too. The only thing worse is how Laker/Kobe fans now want to demonize the victim.

[Real Men Wear Green]

How the phuck I didn't understand it when you were the one confused?

I knew Phil wasn't calling Jordan a shitty defender , unlike some.
In that quote PJ specifically says, "He couldn

[gts]

I hear you. Still it's one thing to have issues, totally another to base your hiring on personal feelings rather than business acumen, assuming they were true. I just don't buy how Dr. Buss could've had that kind of success with the supposed decision-making of an emotional child. And to tarnish anyone's legacy let alone Dr. Buss's with such non-sense is just wrong.

Let's be honest though, Jerry Buss actually struck out more in coaching hires than he hit a homer.. difference is the two homers he hit were grand slam bottom of the ninth world series winners... Buss always gambled on coaching hires

Pat Riley, Phil Jackson were game winners and the Lakers milked them for all they were worth, they really lucked out with Riles and he with them having the faith to give him a try...

Randy Pfund Magic Johnson Rudy-T and Mike Browns were wiffs, Del Harris and Mike Dunleavy were OK but just OK

[Rooster]

Nothing ever is. They had issues. Well reported issues. Kobe stays Shaq goes after months of talk about if they could coexist going forward and all. Kobe signed a 7 year 130 million dollar deal literally the DAY AFTER Shaq was traded to Miami. The very next day.

Plenty of Laker fans were on here saying Kobe had run shaq out of town at the time. And even more when Kobe later demanded to be traded. The Kobe trade demand topics were a good place to see how people really felt.

I doubt Kobe told them to get rid of shaq. I believe him when he says they did what they had to do....but it always seemed pretty clear he no longer wanted to play with Shaq. And them doing what they had to do...was putting the team in his hands and ending the drama.

They got rid of shaq...he signed in the morning. Maybe its not running him out. But it had run its course. He doesnt have to say the words "Get rid of him" for that to appear to be how he wants it to go.

You can blame whoever you wish. But the Shaq/Kobe thing was over. Kobe was a free agent. Shaq wanted 100 million.

They made a call.

This.

Buss made the decision but clearly action speaks louder than words. Kobe signing with the Lakers the day after Shaq got traded says it all. Kobe could have said keep Shaq and I'll resign but the intention was never there. Of course I can't blame Kobe for what he wanted to do. His goal was he wanted to be the greatest and he knows he can't achieve that playing second fiddle To Shaq. But a lot of Lakers fans were pissed especially after Shaq won a ring with Miami. However the end justified the means. Buss made the right call.

[T_L_P]

Obviously Kobe didn't single-handedly run Shaq out of town, but it's pretty easy to see that he played a part in it.

Didn't Phil write in his book that he told Buss at the All-Star break in 2004 that if Kobe wasn't traded, he would not return the next season?

[ArbitraryWater]

Obviously Kobe didn't single-handedly run Shaq out of town, but it's pretty easy to see that he played a part in it.

Didn't Phil write in his book that he told Buss at the All-Star break in 2004 that if Kobe wasn't traded, he would not return the next season?

Yea he did

[HOoopCityJones]

That's a great link I'm reading right now. Everybody should.

People now say "the feud" and that's it with adressing the topic.

That shit went DEEP. Started very early, and had to do with their personalities, to how they played, off court, trust, etc.

Playing wise, I would hang it against Kobe for his selfish play. ESPECIALLY in the 2004 Finals. That was the pinnacle of it. Should have rode Shaq, but refused to. Instead, hurt his team by doing so.

However, between the 2, Shaq seems to be the one who distracted more off the court/in the media.

Then again, Kobe brought so much trouble with his rape tale. I can understand why&how Phil&Shaq were pissed off.

http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/brutal-rape-tale-kobe-accuser-grabbed-bent-chair-article-1.527408

I gained huge respect&love for Kobe over the last year or so. But I never really confronted myself with the actual story.

This is sick.

Article:

The Colorado woman who said she was raped by Kobe Bryant told cops the basketball star bent her over a chair and assaulted her while she sobbed and told him to stop, a detective testified yesterday. "You're not going to tell anyone about this, right?" Bryant said as his hands gripped her throat, the young woman told police.

Through it all, Bryant, 25, listened without emotion. He contends the sex was consensual but faces up to life in prison if a jury doesn't agree. "The testimony given by the detective was very damning to Kobe," said former Denver District Attorney Norm Early. "Most first-time lovers don't have sex over the top of a chair for five minutes."

Blood on his shirt In another potentially damning revelation, Winters said investigators found blood on the hem of Bryant's shirt that matched the alleged victim's DNA. Most legal experts expected that the L.

Back in his room, she showed him a tattoo on her ankle but declined his offer to join him in the hot tub, Winters said. "He began kissing her, kissing her mouth, kissing her neck, which she agreed to," the detective said. When Bryant began groping her, the woman said she tried to flee but the athlete barred her way and grabbed her by the neck, Winters said. "She was afraid that he was going to choke her."

Then, the woman said, Bryant turned her around, pushed her against a chair, pulled down her panties and raped her. She tearfully said "no" twice but was ignored, Winters said. At one point, Bryant "stated that he liked Vail, Colo.," he said. Five minutes later, it was over, Winters said, and Bryant made her kiss his genitals. Then he told her to "go clean up."

The woman finished her shift and on the way out told bellhop Bobby Pietrack what happened, Winters said. Pietrack, 22, was so concerned he followed her home. The next day, the woman reported the rape to cops. Winters said she complained of ******l bleeding and a nurse who examined her found evidence of a sexual assault.

My Comment: Just sad&disgusting. Looks to be true too. The only thing worse is how Laker/Kobe fans now want to demonize the victim.


Come on bro, if he raped her that night he wasn't even the first in that Hour alone! Home girl was a skeezbag and idk why the hell people really pretend she's a victim.

[RIP CITY]

Shaq asked to be traded. He wanted out. He basically said that he wanted out at his press conference after Game 5 of the 2004 Finals. It was because he didn't want to play with Kobe just as much as Kobe didn't want to play with him. Kobe had a part in the reason why Shaq ended up leaving LA, but ultimately Shaq got himself out of town, Kobe just sat back and watched. And I'm sure he was glad when Shaq was traded.

[ArbitraryWater]

Come on bro, if he raped her that night he wasn't even the first in that Hour alone! Home girl was a skeezbag and idk why the hell people really pretend she's a victim.

I don't really know what to believe of it... thing is, you really gotta take a side. Can't be like "well, guess we'll never know huh.." I just wish that one of them in the latter parts of their life would come out with the truth.

[HOoopCityJones]

I don't really know what to believe of it... thing is, you really gotta take a side. Can't be like "well, guess we'll never know huh.." I just wish that one of them in the latter parts of their life would come out with the truth.

She's a proven hussy though :confusedshrug:


I bet Kobe wouldn't of even touched her if he knew she banged the entire staff before cleaning his room.

[longtime lurker]

This just proves what we've always known. The media are a bunch of hypocritical idiots. Ultimately Kobe, Shaq, Phil and Mitch all played a part in the break up of the 3 peat. The blame does not lie on the feet of one party. People just need to move on from this.

[LAZERUSS]

If anyone were to blame for the ultimate split, it was Jackson. He was routinely on record as blaming one, or the other, for the situation. If anything he was THE "back-stabber" in all of this.

How come Jerry West could keep the two happy enough to continue the dynasty, but almost immediately after he left the organization, the issue was blown apart?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I don't really know what to believe of it... thing is, you really gotta take a side. Can't be like "well, guess we'll never know huh.." I just wish that one of them in the latter parts of their life would come out with the truth.

That's moronic. Why do you have to have to choose a side among two scenarios with inconclusive evidence either way?

[Kblaze8855]

She's a proven hussy though :confusedshrug:


I bet Kobe wouldn't of even touched her if he knew she banged the entire staff before cleaning his room.

Which has nothing at all to do with if she was raped or not. Actual professional prostitutes are still raped. People get raped by boyfriends and husbands and so on. The sole factor is if she wanted it to happen at the time. If not...its rape. She can do whatever the hell she wants before and after.

We dont know what happened. Just that rape is hard to prove. I have loved ones and friends who have been raped....but cant prove it. And I dont mean one. Several. Unreported rapes because people dont wanna go through the trouble to just be called a whore for being in the wrong place at the wrong time then watch the guy get off happen all the time.

There are parts of the world where that blame the accuser mentality gets people who try to get justice killed themselves...for fornication.

Kobe did it or he didnt. I dont know. But I do know millions of rapists are in the world without so much as being taken to court. Plenty are falsely accused too. But not nearly as many as those guilty who get away with it.

Being a fan of a guy shouldnt even factor in. But it does. And it kinda bugs me.

[moe94]

She's a proven hussy though :confusedshrug:


I bet Kobe wouldn't of even touched her if he knew she banged the entire staff before cleaning his room.

She was a whore so it's okay that she got raped!

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Which has nothing at all to do with if she was raped or not. Actual professional prostitutes are still raped. People get raped by boyfriends and husbands and so on. The sole factor is if she wanted it to happen at the time. If not...its rape. She can do whatever the hell she wants before and after.

We dont know what happened. Just that rape is hard to prove. I have loved ones and friends who have been raped....but cant prove it. And I dont mean one. Several. Unreported rapes because people dont wanna go through the trouble to just be called a whore for being in the wrong place at the wrong time then watch the guy get off happen all the time.

There are parts of the world where that blame the accuser mentality gets people who try to get justice killed themselves...for fornication.

Kobe did it or he didnt. I dont know. But I do know millions of rapists are in the world without so much as being taken to court. Plenty are falsely accused too. But not nearly as many as those guilty who get away with it.

Being a fan of a guy shouldnt even factor in. But it does. And it kinda bugs me.

Come on... nothing to do with it?!?

:biggums:

So you are telling me that you find the testimony of a Nun just as credible as that of girl that frequently "gets around"?

Not that its impossible for a friendly girl to get raped but if somebody has a history of consenting a hell of a lot to Joe Blows chances are they are probably aren't going to think twice about consenting with a celebrity.

[moe94]

Come on... nothing to do with it?!?

:biggums:

So you are telling me that you find the testimony of a Nun just as credible as that of girl that frequently "gets around"?

Not that its impossible for a friendly girl to get raped but if somebody has a history of consenting a hell of a lot to Joe Blows chances are they are probably aren't going to think twice about consenting with a celebrity.

It's basically irrelevant. Just because she been around doesn't mean she's immune to rape or asking for it. :facepalm

[HOoopCityJones]

Which has nothing at all to do with if she was raped or not. Actual professional prostitutes are still raped. People get raped by boyfriends and husbands and so on. The sole factor is if she wanted it to happen at the time. If not...its rape. She can do whatever the hell she wants before and after.

We dont know what happened. Just that rape is hard to prove. I have loved ones and friends who have been raped....but cant prove it. And I dont mean one. Several. Unreported rapes because people dont wanna go through the trouble to just be called a whore for being in the wrong place at the wrong time then watch the guy get off happen all the time.

There are parts of the world where that blame the accuser mentality gets people who try to get justice killed themselves...for fornication.

Kobe did it or he didnt. I dont know. But I do know millions of rapists are in the world without so much as being taken to court. Plenty are falsely accused too. But not nearly as many as those guilty who get away with it.

Being a fan of a guy shouldnt even factor in. But it does. And it kinda bugs me.

The point is , if you're a proven slut it's gonna be hard to convince a court of law that you refused a Kobe Bryant or a Jameis Winston.

Neither of us was in that room, but hey they did an investigation , and Ive experienced these type of situations before with family, the authorities tend to be very thorough, especially when they already have said assailant in custody and if he did do it I have no doubt he would of been convicted.

But I remember that trial very well, and when the evidence came out that she had multiple swimmers in her drawers it changed her tune very fast and the entire thing was seen as one big waste of time.

She still got a settlement though so mission accomplished I guess.


Me being a fan of Kobe has nothing to do with it, after absorbing the evidence from the authorities investigation I came to my own conclusions based on what I saw from news reports.

[magnax1]

Whether Shaq was run out of town or not, the Lakers just didn't want to pay a declining shaq 20 million for 5 years. Tat was one of the worst contracts in the NBA.

[HOoopCityJones]

She was a whore so it's okay that she got raped!

While you have cats like moe who just bask in the ambiguity of it all so he can pull it out in online debates to do with Kobe.

You all tell me which is worse? :confusedshrug:

I take shit at face value, not interject my own biases into the situation.

[Kblaze8855]

Come on... nothing to do with it?!?



So you are telling me that you find the testimony of a Nun just as credible as that of girl that frequently "gets around"?

Not that its impossible for a friendly girl to get raped but if somebody has a history of consenting a hell of a lot to Joe Blows chances are they are probably aren't going to think twice about consenting with a celebrity.

What I think of the testimony has nothing to do with the facts. A raped hooker was raped no matter how easy I find it to believe. I read an article on the issue once and some crazy percentage of the ones polled straight up admit to having been raped and letting it go. It was like 8 in 10 or so. Being hard to prove in court doesnt mean it didnt happen.

Some rapists are prone to rape those they know wont be believed.

There are serial rapists who just rape prostitutes....because who is going to believe them?

I dated someone who was raped by her ex the day after a breakup. Told her mother. Went to the police. Nothing came of it. She could tell they didnt take it serious. And he didnt even deny it happened. Just that it was rape.

It just comes down to which persons word you take.

Which come up when looking for a conviction.

It has shit to do with the facts.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

It's basically irrelevant. Just because she been around doesn't mean she's immune to rape or asking for it. :facepalm

Nice strawman. No one said its impossible for a loose woman to be raped or deserving of being raped.

People who spend money frivolously can still get robbed.

People who commit crimes often can still be innocent.

People who speed often can still be the victim of a false speeding ticket.

That doesn't make it irrelevant especially in the court of public opinion.

[ArbitraryWater]

That's moronic. Why do you have to have to choose a side among two scenarios with inconclusive evidence either way?

Nah I won't take any... leaning towards rape from everything I have read though. And also, like moe said, she was a whore? Even if, doesn't justify it.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What I think of the testimony has nothing to do with the facts. A raped hooker was raped no matter how easy I find it to believe. I read an article on the issue once and some crazy percentage of the ones polled straight up admit to having been raped and letting it go. It was like 8 in 10 or so. Being hard to prove in court doesnt mean it didnt happen.

Some rapists are prone to rape those they know wont be believed.

There are serial rapists who just rape prostitutes....because who is going to believe them?

I dated someone who was raped by her ex the day after a breakup. Told her mother. Went to the police. Nothing came of it. She could tell they didnt take it serious. And he didnt even deny it happened. Just that it was rape.

It just comes down to which persons word you take.

Which come up when looking for a conviction.

It has shit to do with the facts.

It's impossible to know the facts. That's the point.

At best you can just make a judgement call based on what you know about human nature and the people involved. And if you don't their sexual history is relevant in that aspect you are naive.

[moe94]

You're corny as hell, dude. I see you defending Kobe whenever you post. I don't give a shit either way and think Kobe didn't rape her but your arguments are wack. I don't hate Kobe. I hate your clear bias and dicksucking. :roll:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Nah I won't take any... leaning towards rape from everything I have read though. And also, like moe said, she was a whore? Even if, doesn't justify it.

No one said its cool to rape whores. I swear you idiots can't read for shit.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You're corny as hell, dude. I see you defending Kobe whenever you post. I don't give a shit either way and think Kobe didn't rape her but your arguments are wack. I don't hate Kobe. I hate your clear bias and dicksucking. :roll:

let it out buddy.... its not your fault

[Kblaze8855]

Neither of us was in that room, but hey they did an investigation , and Ive experienced these type of situations before with family, the authorities tend to be very thorough, especially when they already have said assailant in custody and if he did do it I have no doubt he would of been convicted.

Then you just dont look into these things very much. Its hard to convict a nobody who rapes someone at random. You think it would be easy to convict Kobe with his million dollar lawyers if he did it?


Justice and convictions are barely even related in this world.

My grandfathers little brother got killed in broad day in Orangeberg south carolina in 1951. Black kid. White killer. No trial even brought.

Long time ago...but see that case in texas with the little rich kid getting probation for killing 4 people drunk driving? He was too rich to know responsibility....

Justice is not the courts.

Kobe might be innocent. which would be a shame because millions of people will never see it that way.

He might be guilty.

I do not know know. But im not gonna act like shes evil for accusing him.

Too many women suffer in silence over these things.

And they arent accusing Mike Tyson, Kobe, or Tupac.

They can accuse some guy down the street....and get treated like trash for enticing him to begin with.

The system is ****ed. And always has been.

[moe94]

No one said its cool to rape whores. I swear you idiots can't read for shit.

You'll meet Kobe one day and he'll thank you. :applause:

[ArbitraryWater]

No one said its cool to rape whores. I swear you idiots can't read for shit.

Then what's your damn point?

[moe94]

Then what's your damn point?

Here's what he does...

Says something retarded. Then when someone calls it out, call strawman.

Every single time. :roll:

[HOoopCityJones]

You're corny as hell, dude. I see you defending Kobe whenever you post. I don't give a shit either way and think Kobe didn't rape her but your arguments are wack. I don't hate Kobe. I hate your clear bias and dicksucking. :roll:

So what's the point of stirring shit up then? You're the worse kind of troll bro, because you try to act rational and objective, but you're always the one to say the hot button words to steer the threads into a flame war between posters.


Oh so my argument is lame? Why is he free then moe? What could of possibly steered the case in Kobe's favor? Is there a conspiracy? did someone get paid off to keep their mouth shut?

OH WAIT, you just said you didn't even think she was raped , so again what was your point in posting what you originally did if you didn't think Kobe did it?


I only defend Kobe when you guys are being ridiculous, which is 80% of the time at ISH.

[Kblaze8855]

I will say....a false rape accusation would be about the worst thing in the world to deal with short of a death.

Especially the ones when the guy KNOWS its just for money or spite...but cant prove it. Like...there was nothing close to rape and the cops just knock and ol girl is crying on tv as your family watches....

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Then what's your damn point?

That someone with a history of consenting frequently with losers low on a totem pole such as yourself is more likely than not to consent with a famous athlete.

Just like your friend who has a history of a hooking up with fat chicks is more likely than not not to consent with a supermodel.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

LeBron traveled, Kobe raped

[HOoopCityJones]

Then you just dont look into these things very much. Its hard to convict a nobody who rapes someone at random. You think it would be easy to convict Kobe with his million dollar lawyers if he did it?


Justice and convictions are barely even related in this world.

My grandfathers little brother got killed in broad day in Orangeberg south carolina in 1951. Black kid. White killer. No trial even brought.

Long time ago...but see that case in texas with the little rich kid getting probation for killing 4 people drunk driving? He was too rich to know responsibility....

Justice is not the courts.

Kobe might be innocent. which would be a shame because millions of people will never see it that way.

He might be guilty.

I do not know know. But im not gonna act like shes evil for accusing him.

Too many women suffer in silence over these things.

And they arent accusing Mike Tyson, Kobe, or Tupac.

They can accuse some guy down the street....and get treated like trash for enticing him to begin with.

The system is ****ed. And always has been.

Look bro, I'm not gonna get into a deep discussion about the system , you wanna do that go write a book.

Women get away with murder and abuse all of the time so it goes both ways.

[ArbitraryWater]

So what's the point of stirring shit up then? You're the worse kind of troll bro, because you try to act rational and objective, but you're always the one to say the hot button words to steer the threads into a flame war between posters.


Oh so my argument is lame? Why is he free then moe? What could of possibly steered the case in Kobe's favor? Is there a conspiracy? did someone get paid off to keep their mouth shut?

OH WAIT, you just said you didn't even think she was raped , so again what was your point in posting what you originally did if you didn't think Kobe did it?


I only defend Kobe when you guys are being ridiculous, which is 80% of the time at ISH.

Just because he doesn't take a definitive side, I don't see why he's not allowed to act objective tbh... I'm cool with you though, at least I wanna be, for now. YMF a douche

[ArbitraryWater]

That someone with a history of consenting frequently with losers low on a totem pole such as yourself is more likely than not to consent with a famous athlete.

Just like your friend who has a history of a hooking up with fat chicks is more likely than not not to consent with a supermodel.

:biggums:


You JUST said its possible for people who commit crimes to be innocent/speed often can still be the victim of a wrong speeding ticket/etc... yet you dont even take these things into account.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:biggums:


You JUST said its possible for people who commit crimes to be innocent/speed often can still be the victim of a wrong speeding ticket/etc... yet you dont even take these things into account.

Do you know the difference between the words "more likely than not" and "100% for sure"?

[HOoopCityJones]

Just because he doesn't take a definitive side, I don't see why he's not allowed to act objective tbh... I'm cool with you though, at least I wanna be, for now. YMF a douche

Nah, he always does this shit, first he comes in on one side of the fence ( what ever topic) , then once things are riled up he reiterates his position , revealing his position as the side he was just arguing against.

What's the point of even saying anything? :confusedshrug:

It's troll shit 101.

[moe94]

Nah, he always does this shit, first he comes in on one side of the fence ( what ever topic) , then once things are riled up he reiterates his position , revealing his position as the side he was just arguing against.

What's the point of even saying anything? :confusedshrug:

It's troll shit 101.

What? What sides? This thread was never about Kobe and his rape. It somehow came down to it and you two Kobe stans were using tired arguments, like always.

also, just because you disagree with someone, it doesn't mean they're a troll or trolling you. I don't like the way you lodged yourself into Kobe's balls. You're trolling me and now I'm upset, right? Is that how it goes?

[HOoopCityJones]

What? What sides? This thread was never about Kobe and his rape. It somehow came down to it and you two Kobe stans were using tired arguments, like always.

Why wasn't he convicted moe? Stop side talking and answer the darn question.

[Kblaze8855]

Look bro, I'm not gonna get into a deep discussion about the system , you wanna do that go write a book.

Women get away with murder and abuse all of the time so it goes both ways.



Dont want to have a real discussion about it fine. No need to make statements like:


Why is he free then moe? What could of possibly steered the case in Kobe's favor? Is there a conspiracy? did someone get paid off to keep their mouth shut?

and


Why wasn't he convicted moe? Stop side talking and answer the darn question.

There are known serial rapists who do it for 30 damn years. Jerry Sandusky was probably molesting kids for 50 years getting away with it.

But "why is he free then?" like it makes a point.

You are a Kobe fan. So id expect you to be more likely to take his side(I find it weak...just...to be expected).

See it all the time. People were on here saying Michael Jackson was innocent. Kobe. I remember arguments at the time on Tyson. tupac. Big Ben. Plenty of people.

Always comes down to fans backing a guy and attacking the accuser.

Do I think every famous person who beats a rape case is guilty? No.

No more than I think everyone convicted is guilty.

What I know...is that justice is almost a myth these days. And pointing out that someone wasnt convicted as if it proves anything just screams of turning a blind eye to something you dont want to see.

Some of these famous guys did it....I dont know if Kobe did. I do know that as hard as it is to prove rape with a public defender its gotta be harder with Kobe or Michael Jacksons resources.

And then they just...write a check and it goes away?

These guys are just not normal. Can spend tens of millions on defense, slander accusers through back channels, then just pay off a family when the circus is too bad to handle.

I cant imagine if my daughter came to me saying some athlete attacked her.

Really...what proof could there possibly be if he says "No I didnt...she wanted it" and smirked into the camera. His fans would back him, laugh on the internet, and demonize my daughter by the millions.

His 20,000 dollar an hour lawyers turn up saying "You arent gonna win...why drag it out? We are offering 10 million provided you agree to keep quiet forever"....

Its a tough choice.

"Justice" really can be bought. Did Kobe? I have no idea.

But I know the courts decision shouldnt convince anyone who pays any attention to the world we have.

[HOoopCityJones]

What? What sides? This thread was never about Kobe and his rape. It somehow came down to it and you two Kobe stans were using tired arguments, like always.

also, just because you disagree with someone, it doesn't meant they're a troll or trolling you. I don't like the way you lodged yourself into Kobe's balls. You're trolling me and now I'm upset, right? Is that how it goes?

LOL, you poor soul , I replied to something Arbitrary posted about the Rape case, then Blaze and Yao shared their opinions.

You're the only one who came in on some "If she's a whore she deserved to be raped" crap. No one even said anything like that, I'm going by the evidence presented in the case, which was skewed once they found out the accuser was promiscuous with multiple partners before even meeting Kobe. Which is why her ass settled.

You just wanna stir shit up.

It's all here in the thread for everyone to read, I have nothing to change or hide.

[HOoopCityJones]

Dont want to have a real discussion about it fine. No need to make statements like:



and



There are known serial rapists who do it for 30 damn years. Jerry Sandusky was probably molesting kids for 50 years getting away with it.

But "why is he free then?" like it makes a point.

You are a Kobe fan. So id expect you to be more likely to take his side(I find it weak...just...to be expected).

See it all the time. People were on here saying Michael Jackson was innocent. Kobe. I remember arguments at the time on Tyson. tupac. Big Ben. Plenty of people.

Always comes down to fans backing a guy and attacking the accuser.

Do I think every famous person who beats a rape case is guilty? No.

No more than I think everyone convicted is guilty.

What I know...is that justice is almost a myth these days. And pointing out that someone wasnt convicted as if it proves anything just screams of turning a blind eye to something you dont want to see.

Some of these famous guys did it....I dont know if Kobe did. I do know that as hard as it is to prove rape with a public defender its gotta be harder with Kobe or Michael Jacksons resources.

And then they just...write a check and it goes away?

These guys are just not normal. Can spend tens of millions on defense, slander accusers through back channels, then just pay off a family when the circus is too bad to handle.

I cant imagine if my daughter came to me saying some athlete attacked her.

Really...what proof could there possibly be if he says "No I didnt...she wanted it" and smirked into the camera. His fans would back him, laugh on the internet, and demonize my daughter by the millions.

His 20,000 dollar an hour lawyers turn up saying "You arent gonna win...why drag it out? We are offering 10 million provided you agree to keep quiet forever"....

Its a tough choice.

"Justice" really can be bought. Did Kobe? I have no idea.

But I know the courts decision shouldnt convince anyone who pays any attention to the world we have.

Bro, you can you type all of this hyperbole over and over about the system and serial rapists all you want but the fact of the matter is her case was made quick work of once they figured out mama lives on her back. Haha , Jerry Sandusky huh? Now Kobe's a serial rapist? LOL ok, cool.

[secund2nun]

Kobe ran him out. The 2004 finals showed how jealous Kobe was. Once Shaq was gone Kobe was exposed as a first round loser until he once again had a elite front court to carry him in Gasol, Bynum, and Odom :lol

[Kblaze8855]

How do you get me thinking Kobe is a serial rapist from pointing out that people have been free for decades while raping people? You asked how hes free if he was guilty. Literally...MILLIONS of rapists are free. Has nothing to do with Kobe...its just a dumb question.

I suspect that your reading comprehension isnt actually that poor and now you are just being a clown. So ill let you do that. You are far from the only one with the red nose on.

[Megabox!]

I thought everyone already knew Shaq was a goofy, jokester with a poor work ethic. That still didn't stop him from dominating during their 3-peat.

[mehyaM24]

phil called kobe uncoachable. nuff said.

[HOoopCityJones]

How do you get me thinking Kobe is a serial rapist from pointing out that people have been free for decades while raping people? You asked how hes free if he was guilty. Literally...MILLIONS of rapists are free. Has nothing to do with Kobe...its just a dumb question.

I suspect that your reading comprehension isnt actually that poor and now you are just being a clown. So ill let you do that. You are far from the only one with the red nose on.

You think bringing up 1,000 other cases where a rapist walks free apilies 100% to Kobe's case, now answer the question, Idc about Sandusky or any other case studies you wanna present to the class.

Why wasn't Kobe convicted of Rape?

No, I'm not a clown in the slightest, I just don't wanna read forty paragraphs about similar cases where rapists get off just so you can keep stroking yourself. We get it , people are wrongly accused or true justice isn't served most of the time. That's the life we're living.

What does it have to do with the case we're discussing right now?

[gts]

Some facts being dismissed

One Kobe was charged with rape, he was scheduled to go to court on the charges so it's not like he got away with it or the accuser shut up about it or didn't report it. This isn't a case of somebody (Kobe) getting away with rape unscathed as is being suggested in this thread. He faced the accusations...

The DA dropped the charges when the accusers behavior after the alleged rape came to light.

Medical experts were going to testify she had sex with two other men after the alleged incident and before she went to the police, her friends were going to testify how she bragged about the incident at a party the very same evening after having gone to the police.... When all this came out and the DA's office told her she'd have to answer to these actions she dropped the charges. The DA could have gone forward with the case despite the woman's dropping the charges but they declined to do so. Obviously the evidence just wasn't there to support the charges if the supposed victim wasn't going to tell her side of the story

Doesn't mean the incident occurred or didn't occur but it does shed some light on the type of person she was and it was more than enough for the DA to dismiss the charges

[Da_Bulls_23]

Why is Phil airing all these comments? He said something about Rodman being the last PF on his list when Bulls were rebuilding 2nd 3-peat roster..

Is he promoting a book or something? Looking for attention?

Everyone knows the feud was always been there b/w those 2. But they were just 2 different animals. There was only so much time before it blew over, so eventually the Lakers had to make a decision before that happened and hurt the organization.

Kobe was the right choice. He was younger, had more prime years left, and had a more serious approach.

[Kblaze8855]

When you ask...why someone isnt convicted....the system they are being judged in matters.

And when literally millions of people get away with rape merely not being in jail for it isnt evidence.

Rape...is virtually never proven without some kind of camera footage. Its ALWAYS he said she said. She likes it rough...I told him no...whatever. Hard cases to prove.

No reason to act like Kobe is outside the system and I should believe him because the system says it cant prove it.

Hes free the same reason Michael Jackson was free.

Because you cant prove the charges.

Would I bet my life that he did it? No. I wouldnt bet 20 dollars.

But fans are idiots on these matters. Every time. Every famous person....army of people saying "No way! Shes a whore!".

Its getting worse instead of better.

[HOoopCityJones]

Some facts being dismissed

One Kobe was charged with rape, he was scheduled to go to court on the charges so it's not like he got away with it or the accuser shut up about it or didn't report it. This isn't a case of somebody (Kobe) getting away with rape unscathed as is being suggested in this thread. He faced the accusations...

The DA dropped the charges when the accusers behavior after the alleged rape came to light.

Medical experts were going to testify she had sex with two other men after the alleged incident and before she went to the police, her friends were going to testify how she bragged about the incident at a party the very same evening after having gone to the police.... When all this came out and the DA's office told her she'd have to answer to these actions she dropped the charges. The DA could have gone forward with the case despite the woman's dropping the charges but they declined to do so. Obviously the evidence just wasn't there to support the charges if the supposed victim wasn't going to tell her side of the story

Doesn't mean the incident occurred or didn't occur but it does shed some light on the type of person she was and it was more than enough for the DA to dismiss the charges



She was a whore so it's okay that she got raped!


:applause:

[HOoopCityJones]

Would I bet my life that he did it? No. I wouldnt bet 20 dollars.

But fans are idiots on these matters. Every time. Every famous person....army of people saying "No way! Shes a whore!".

Its getting worse instead of better.


:confusedshrug:

What's the point of arguing then? No one said the Justice System was perfect.

[ZenMaster]

Why is Phil airing all these comments? He said something about Rodman being the last PF on his list when Bulls were rebuilding 2nd 3-peat roster..

Is he promoting a book or something? Looking for attention?

Everyone knows the feud was always been there b/w those 2. But they were just 2 different animals. There was only so much time before it blew over, so eventually the Lakers had to make a decision before that happened and hurt the organization.

Kobe was the right choice. He was younger, had more prime years left, and had a more serious approach.

No he was on a panel at a sports conference being asked questions.

[Kblaze8855]

:confusedshrug:

What's the point of arguing then? No one said the Justice System was perfect.

When you say that if he did it you have no doubt he would be convicted....thats pretty much saying you have absolute faith.

[HOoopCityJones]

When you say that if he did it you have no doubt he would be convicted....thats pretty much saying you have absolute faith.

No, I have faith that if a Black man raped a White woman in Colorado that he would be convicted, hell yea. UNLESS: Refer to the gts post.

[DonDadda59]

[QUOTE=HOoopCityJones]http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/02/phil-jackson-shaquille-oneal-kobe-bryant-lakers/

That Ether.

[Kblaze8855]

There have been white female ISH posters raped by black men in the south without them getting convicted....not a theory. Not a rumor. Friend of mine actually.

But thats a whoooooooole other discussion and there arent many left who would remember her anyway. Pistons fan from the contending years.

Suicide....awful story. 100% dead serious.

Such things have made me more touchy than I used to be on the subject.

[HOoopCityJones]

There have been white female ISH posters raped by black men in the south without them getting convicted....not a theory. Not a rumor. Friend of mine actually.

But thats a whoooooooole other discussion and there arent many left who would remember her anyway. Pistons fan from the contending years.

Suicide....awful story. 100% dead serious.

Such things have made me more touchy than I used to be on the subject.

Jesus that's terrible. :cry:

[HOoopCityJones]

Talk about a stretch :lol

Phil said Shaq's childish ways were part of what caused the rift, but in his book from around that time he talks about how uncoachable and cancerous Bean was. Both guys' planet-sized egos caused the implosion but Bean was just as much at fault, maybe even more so if Phil's firsthand account is to be believed.

And on a semi-related note- I think as crazy as it may sound, Shaq just might be the biggest waste of talent in NBA History (not counting injuries, death, etc). If he had worked on his game and gave a f*ck about the game as much as he did making shitty movies and rap albums, he would've gone down as the undisputed GOAT. I think he was more than capable of putting up his finals stats for his entire career, but he mainly coasted until it was time to turn it up. And if he had seriously worked on his FT shooting... how would any team have possibly stopped him from dropping 40+ every single night?

Was Kobe the sole reason he left like the ISH Kobe detractors like to portray? No

Shaq did dirt too, you all should grow up and accept it is all this thread's about.

Instead of Kobe being this psycho dictator who has the organization by the balls.

[Da_Bulls_23]

No he was on a panel at a sports conference being asked questions.

OK makes sense, suppose nothing is concealed anymore in today's world.

[DonDadda59]

And since we're on the subject of Colorado:


First, I want to apologize directly to the young woman involved in this incident. I want to apologize to her for my behavior that night and for the consequences she has suffered in the past year. Although this year has been incredibly difficult for me personally, I can only imagine the pain she has had to endure. I also want to apologize to her parents and family members, and to my family and friends and supporters, and to the citizens of Eagle, Colo.

I also want to make it clear that I do not question the motives of this young woman. No money has been paid to this woman. She has agreed that this statement will not be used against me in the civil case. Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter.

I issue this statement today fully aware that while one part of this case ends today, another remains. I understand that the civil case against me will go forward. That part of this case will be decided by and between the parties directly involved in the incident and will no longer be a financial or emotional drain on the citizens of the state of Colorado

-Kobe Bean Bryant

So it took him some time, but he finally realized that he raped the girl? Better late than never I suppose.

[HOoopCityJones]

And since we're on the subject of Colorado:


First, I want to apologize directly to the young woman involved in this incident. I want to apologize to her for my behavior that night and for the consequences she has suffered in the past year. Although this year has been incredibly difficult for me personally, I can only imagine the pain she has had to endure. I also want to apologize to her parents and family members, and to my family and friends and supporters, and to the citizens of Eagle, Colo.

I also want to make it clear that I do not question the motives of this young woman. No money has been paid to this woman. She has agreed that this statement will not be used against me in the civil case. Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter.

I issue this statement today fully aware that while one part of this case ends today, another remains. I understand that the civil case against me will go forward. That part of this case will be decided by and between the parties directly involved in the incident and will no longer be a financial or emotional drain on the citizens of the state of Colorado

-Kobe Bean Bryant

So it took him some time, but he finally realized that he raped the girl? Better late than never I suppose.

:coleman:

[sbw19]

Let's be honest though, Jerry Buss actually struck out more in coaching hires than he hit a homer.. difference is the two homers he hit were grand slam bottom of the ninth world series winners... Buss always gambled on coaching hires
Point-taken. But was that really the issue being discussed. I can understand that having fired MB because of a bad start, and with Howard needing a coach to cater to exploiting his strengths, the late Dr. Buss somehow chose to ignore MDA's woeful Knicks ride and no-defense style of play, that he saw some qualities in him that would make him a better hire than Phil, which would have been a bad decision considering what's already known about both coaches, who Kobe wanted coaching him etc, but still within the context of doing business.

It's however totally different to suggesting MDA was hired because Dr. Buss and Phil had issues. Not impossible by any stretch, just seems so far-fetched that it comes off as a pretext rather than a cause.

[Soundwave]

We all know this.

Shaq would probably be GOAT or at least the undisputed no.2 if he had the work ethic to want it badly enough.

Especially after 2000 when there was no Hakeem/DRob to really directly challenge him.

Yes Kobe probably was annoying as f*ck, but Shaq was the "older brother", should've made it work.

[Lamar Odumbb]

Notice how Shaq has fought with easy go lucky guys like David Robinson, Penny Hardaway, Nick Anderson, and Nick Van Exel.

Kobe had problems with Bynum, Dwight, and Shaq. All three of those guys are immature clowns. I bet Jordan wouldnt put up with their dumb asses either just like he did with Horce Grant and Bill Cartwright.

[LA_Showtime]

And since we're on the subject of Colorado:


First, I want to apologize directly to the young woman involved in this incident. I want to apologize to her for my behavior that night and for the consequences she has suffered in the past year. Although this year has been incredibly difficult for me personally, I can only imagine the pain she has had to endure. I also want to apologize to her parents and family members, and to my family and friends and supporters, and to the citizens of Eagle, Colo.

I also want to make it clear that I do not question the motives of this young woman. No money has been paid to this woman. She has agreed that this statement will not be used against me in the civil case. Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter.

I issue this statement today fully aware that while one part of this case ends today, another remains. I understand that the civil case against me will go forward. That part of this case will be decided by and between the parties directly involved in the incident and will no longer be a financial or emotional drain on the citizens of the state of Colorado

-Kobe Bean Bryant

So it took him some time, but he finally realized that he raped the girl? Better late than never I suppose.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the accuser told him to say that otherwise she would not drop the charges. It was part of their behind-the-scenes deal.

[gts]

It's however totally different to suggesting MDA was hired because Dr. Buss and Phil had issues. Not impossible by any stretch, just seems so far-fetched that it comes off as a pretext rather than a cause.

Not really if you look at their history... Phil demands Buss trades Kobe, Buss chooses Kobe, Phil quits and writes a book blasting Kobe and the franchise

Part II several years later, Phil says he was wrong wants to come back and make things right

After a rough season where the team underperformed with a fairly healthy roster Phil says he's not up to the job anymore, he physically cannot handle it... suggests only coaching home games might be a solution, Buss says no, Phil quits again...

Through all this you hear Buss doesn't like the triangle offense style of play, he longs for a return to the Showtime style..

Part III Brown's released, Lakers call Phil, interview him he doesn't give them an answer, says he has to consult with his doctors and think about it.. Buss is dying and the team needs a coach he doesn't have time to to let Phil think about it and if reports are true Buss was miffed at Phil playing coy and acting like he never even thought about coaching again when all the previous summer we know he was entertaining offers from other teams. It's not like Jackson wasn't privy to inside information, he lives with Buss's daughter, he knew exactly what was going on behind closed doors and still decided to play hard to get.

If you followed the Lakers long enough you learned two things about Buss, he doesn't play around, he's loyal to those who are loyal to him but if you cross him you're on the outside looking in faster than you can say Shaquille O'Neal

[gts]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the accuser told him to say that otherwise she would not drop the charges. It was part of their behind-the-scenes deal.

Actually that was written by attorneys... lol Nothing from the heart there, nothing other than attorneys from both sides getting what they wanted for their clients

[Real Men Wear Green]

When two parties have different versions of events resolving the dispute without labeling either side a liar normally means you just say the two sides viewed it differently. That way Bryant doesn't have to admit to being a rapist and the accuser doesn't have to admit to being a liar.

[Myth]

[QUOTE=HOoopCityJones]

[SpecialQue]

This thread took a very dark, depressing turn. :(

[HOoopCityJones]

That doesn't indicate that Kobe didn't run Shaq out of town. If anything, it backs it up by saying that Kobe ran Shaq out of town because of the rift caused by their personalities not meshing.

Curve it all you want man.

[Myth]

Curve it all you want man.

I didn't distort anything, unlike you.

[sbw19]

Not really if you look at their history... Phil demands Buss trades Kobe, Buss chooses Kobe, Phil quits and writes a book blasting Kobe and the franchise

Part II several years later, Phil says he was wrong wants to come back and make things right

After a rough season where the team underperformed with a fairly healthy roster Phil says he's not up to the job anymore, he physically cannot handle it... suggests only coaching home games might be a solution, Buss says no, Phil quits again...

Through all this you hear Buss doesn't like the triangle offense style of play, he longs for a return to the Showtime style..

Part III Brown's released, Lakers call Phil, interview him he doesn't give them an answer, says he has to consult with his doctors and think about it.. Buss is dying and the team needs a coach he doesn't have time to to let Phil think about it and if reports are true Buss was miffed at Phil playing coy and acting like he never even thought about coaching again when all the previous summer we know he was entertaining offers from other teams. It's not like Jackson wasn't privy to inside information, he lives with Buss's daughter, he knew exactly what was going on behind closed doors and still decided to play hard to get.

If you followed the Lakers long enough you learned two things about Buss, he doesn't play around, he's loyal to those who are loyal to him but if you cross him you're on the outside looking in faster than you can say Shaquille O'Neal
Nah it was more or less about age and conditioning that determined Kobe's re-signing at the time, Shaq is 7 years his younger Buss'd have picked him. People forget Kobe's caused the Lakers organization a lot of unnecessary distractions that'd cost them wins in the past: the rape trial, Lakers stick by him, Shaq feud, Lakers pick him and trade Shaq. How does he repay his Dr. Buss' faith in him? By refusing to shooting the ball in a playoff game, trashing Bynum, venting to the media and demanding a trade. Yeah Kobe never crossed the Lakers. Please. That said ever since he's changed for the better, made amends and won us two titles on his watch, and right now has nothing but my respect. But given his past he wasn't this dude who always put the team ahead of himself. To me that much is apparent.

Now, if Dr. Buss wanted a showtime-like team he wouldn't have hired MB and kept a slow and aging roster afterwards. Just doesn't make much sense. And I can't say for sure PJax was exerting some kind of leverage and testing Dr. Buss' limits or being sincere about his health post cancer treatment, noteworthy however is not to ignore the fact that Jackson hasn't been in the best shape of health since his last coaching season, hasn't coached a single game ever since, and indicated numerous times he'd rather have a physically less demanding office job than go through the grind of coaching again. If these facts are seen by you as being coy, then fine. If you think Dr. Buss thought so that's fine too. I don't. And neither do I believe we wouldn't be contending for a title right now had Phil took over and Howard stayed instead of watching MDA's latest soap opera with Gasol, of all people.

[Xover]

Kobe saw that as a pinnacle that he had to reach, and he took it to a whole new level.”

http://www.animecels.net/IMAGES/SAIYAN/CELS%20178%20(Medium).jpg

[Asukal]

Like I said , hype.

Pippen's always been the better defender.

Who did Jordan put the clamps on, Jon Stockton? :oldlol:

Jordan won DPOY and had seasons of 2-3 spg and over 1 bpg and you tell me he is all hype? Lay off the haterade man. :facepalm

It is true Pippen gets defensive assignments over Jordan because the team needed it. Not because Jordan can't defend better but he needed to conserve his energy for scoring. Pippen can't score like Jordan, but heck I'm pretty sure Jordan is just as good as Pippen in defense or even better. :no:

[CavaliersFTW]

Jordan won DPOY and had seasons of 2-3 spg and over 1 bpg and you tell me he is all hype? Lay off the haterade man. :facepalm

It is true Pippen gets defensive assignments over Jordan because the team needed it. Not because Jordan can't defend better but he needed to conserve his energy for scoring. Pippen can't score like Jordan, but heck I'm pretty sure Jordan is just as good as Pippen in defense or even better. :no:
Jerry West has stated in interview that from his own observation Jordan was the better defender than Pippen. I trust Jerry West's judgement on the matter, especially considering he was such a dominant defensive back court player himself and sees thinks other people just don't see (player/fan/coach or otherwise). I think you're right, in that Pippen was just assigned some of the tougher players to keep Jordan's energy where it was needed more.

[Upgrayedd]

Shaq got fat and lazy. He could have probably won more championships if he actually stayed in shape.

I made a thread a while back on here pointing that out and everyone disagreed. But I don't care. Shaq got so fat and lazy.

[gts]

Shaq got fat and lazy. He could have probably won more championships if he actually stayed in shape.

I made a thread a while back on here pointing that out and everyone disagreed. But I don't care. Shaq got so fat and lazy.

Oh he did.. there's lots of people that agree with you including me.. I used to get so pissed at him, camp would start and he'd start talking about playing his way into shape, First games would roll around and Jackson't going to play him sparingly because he's not in shape.. then that season where it's announced he's having surgery the first week of camp to fix whatever it was he had injured the previous season...

blah.. frustrating as a fan but you have to think the Lakers front office was going ballistic when he's running around demanding an extension for 30 million a year yet he can barely make two trips up and down the floor without an oxygen tank

[houston]

phil being phil

[AlphaWolf24]

http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr217/Sino21/ThisThreadDelivers.gif

[0000000]

Kobe didn't demand for Shaq to be traded but his approach was basically, Shaq or me. Kobe wasn't going to resign with Shaq there. So you can say he indirectly run him out. Doesn't matter either way.
Any amount of rings Kobe and Shaq might've won if they stayed together, Kobe and Gasol won. So it comes down the same.

The most inexcusable thing the Lakers did was being so inactive before Gasol fell into their lap. Just no excuse to have the actual Smush Parker starting and having Smush Parkers at other positions as well.

[La Frescobaldi]

Kobe didn't demand for Shaq to be traded but his approach was basically, Shaq or me. Kobe wasn't going to resign with Shaq there. So you can say he indirectly run him out. Doesn't matter either way.
Any amount of rings Kobe and Shaq might've won if they stayed together, Kobe and Gasol won. So it comes down the same.

The most inexcusable thing the Lakers did was being so inactive before Gasol fell into their lap. Just no excuse to have the actual Smush Parker starting and having Smush Parkers at other positions as well.

what were they going to do, though? Money, and who was available, were the problems at that time frame.