MJ @ His Peak Vs Kobe @ His Peak:Who's The Better Scorer?

[aboss4real24]

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m37udkh14n1qjinhbo1_500.gif

Kobe From 02-11 was the best all around complete scorer iv ever seen



And imo The best ever

i think Kobe is a better shooter then mike, a better post player
And had better footwork

Mike was more explosive , better finisher , and more clutch ,

Also had had a quicker 1st step

Who do you guys think is the better scorer ?

[KirbyPls]

Reported.

[Rodmantheman]

Nice gif but Jordan should have been the one to dunk.

[navy]

Kobe has the most missed shots of all time and hasnt passed Jordan in scoring yet.

[LosScandalous]

I honestly think their peak scoring ability is equal.

Almost identical FT shooting, footwork, overall talent/ability to score the ball in their primes

Kobe gets the slight shooting ability advantage and Jordan gets the slight finishing ability advantage

[Smook A.]

Kobe has the most missed shots of all time and hasnt passed Jordan in scoring yet.
Theres a chance he never will pass MJ

[fragokota]

that dilemma...

[DonDadda59]

The one with the 10 scoring titles, highest PPG in league History (both reg. season and playoffs).

It's close doe.






































:lol

[Micku]

Peak for peak? I would say Jordan. More efficient while scoring at the same volume.

Jordan was equal or slightly better in the post, quicker footwork, better first step, better finisher, a better midrange jumper, more clutch and took better shots.

Basically anything under the 3pt line, Jordan was better. Plus, Jordan was better at not breaking the offense. He is pretty much a more athletic and smarter version of Kobe for the most part. That pretty much sums it up.


Kobe was more dynamic with his ball handing and had better range. Also when Kobe gets on a hot streak, I think he is more unstoppable because of his 3pt ability. I think Kobe is better than Jordan when Kobe is on fire I guess.

[AlphaWolf24]

Sat Night...waiting to spit my sh!t.

it's tough...

MJ's mid range was unstoppable as was his ability to drive and finish...

Kobe could post up / shoot the 3 and attack off the dribble...

Like someone else said...when Kobe got Hot it was amazing to watch..his 03' and 06' seasons were magical.

MJ's 88' - 92 seasons were probably the most dominate I have ever seen....

Gosh...like trying to pick between Stacey Dash and Holly B....


Gotta go with Holly B on this one.

[Yankstar]

Theres a chance he never will pass MJ

Who are you trying to troll. At his Peak Kobe was the better scorer then MJ lets be honest. He is a better shooter period and next season he will pass Mj on the all time scorers list. :bowdown:

[Young X]

Jordan easy. Kobe has one 50 point game in the playoffs, Jordan had two straight in one series.

Regular season

88-91 MJ: 33.1 - 60.7 TS%
06-09 Kobe: 30.5 - 56.9 TS%

Playoffs

88-91 MJ: 34.5 - 59.8 TS%
06-09 Kobe: 30.1 - 57.1 TS%

[Smook A.]

Who are you trying to troll. At his Peak Kobe was the better scorer then MJ lets be honest. He is a better shooter period and next season he will pass Mj on the all time scorers list. :bowdown:
Better shooter than MJ? hmmm im pretty Jordan had the higher FG%

[AlphaWolf24]

Jordan easy. Kobe has one 50 point game in the playoffs, Jordan had two straight in one series.

Regular season

88-91 MJ: 33.1 - 60.7 TS%
06-09 Kobe: 30.5 - 56.9 TS%

Playoffs

88-91 MJ 88-91: 34.5 - 59.8 TS%
06-09 Kobe: 30.1 - 57.1 TS%

Kobe scored 62 points in 3 quarters...Kobe scored 40 points like 12 games in a row..

81...



- Sh1t...back in 06 - 08' if Kobe didn't score 40 it was a disappointment.
- MJ probably could have dropped 50 every night if he had more range....he was that good.

[Cold soul]

Super close but give me Kobe slightly.

[AlphaWolf24]

[QUOTE=Smook A.]Better shooter than MJ? hmmm im pretty Jordan had the higher FG%

[Kiddlovesnets]

MJ of course, he averaged 37ppg and could still average 30ppg at 33 years old.

[Cold soul]

Jordan was a better finisher/attacking the lane...he also played in a different era....30 players scored over 24PPG and 50% between 86 - 96'

only 5 players from 00' - 10 have done that.

Kobe had more range on his shot...MJ was a better finisher around the basket....could attack the lane better - leading to a higher FG%

Spoken like a true champ. You my friend are one of the best posters on this board. Great post I agree.

[kamil]

Kobe scored 62 points in 3 quarters...Kobe scored 40 points like 12 games in a row..

81...



- Sh1t...back in 06 - 08' if Kobe didn't score 40 it was a disappointment.
- MJ probably could have dropped 50 every night if he had more range....he was that good.

Congrats, Kobe scored points on complete SCRUBS.

[Young X]

Kobe scored 62 points in 3 quarters...Kobe scored 40 points like 12 games in a row..

81...



- Sh1t...back in 06 - 08' if Kobe didn't score 40 it was a disappointment.
- MJ probably could have dropped 50 every night if he had more range....he was that good.Yeah but why didn't he do that against Phoenix in the playoffs? None of Kobe's signature high scoring games happened in the playoffs, while the only games people remember from MJ are playoff games, nobody cares that MJ dropped 58 in 3 quarters vs the Nets or 61 against the Hawks, but they remember his 63 against Boston or his 55 against Phoenix in the Finals. MJ raised his scoring to a level that Kobe never reached in the playoffs when his team needed it the most. That's the difference.

[FKAri]

It's honestly quite close. Jordan's more consistent, while Kobe's a bit more explosive (largely because of the 3pt shot). It's very hard to answer this because you have to take into account that the optimum way to score was different between their eras.

[SuperPippen]

The gap isn't as wide as some are making it seem. Kobe's got a definite argument here.

While I believe that Jordan was more generally more consistent/efficient, and ultimately I would rule in his favor, I also believe that peak Kobe is perhaps the most dominant perimeter streak scorer in NBA history.

[Keno]

jordan and it's not even close. lebron is better scorer than kobe. stop it.

[dude77]

30 pt games ..

jordan - 673

kobe - 498


40 pt games ..

jordan - 212

kobe - 133


50 pt games ..

jordan - 39

kobe - 24


60 pt games -

jordan - 5

kobe - 5


kobe is/was/and always will be a poor man's jordan ..


stop trying to compare these two as if kobe is anywhere close

[Young X]

The gap isn't as wide as some are making it seem. Kobe's got a definite argument here.No he doesn't. What argument could you use? Higher scoring games against bum teams?

[DonDadda59]

Hilarious that some people are even discussing this. If you thought the regular season was somehow debatable, see me when it really matters...

From 85-first retirement, Jordan put up 35 PPG/ 7 RPG/ 7APG/ 2.3 APG/ 1 BPG (50%FG) in the playoffs and had series that looked like:

'86 Vs Celtics: 43 PPG/ 6 RPG/ 6APG/ 2.3 SPG/ 1.3 BPG (51% FG)
'88 Vs Cavaliers: 45 PPG/ 5 RPG/ 6 APG/ 2.8 SPG/ 1.6 BPG (56% FG)
'89 Vs Cavaliers: 40 PPG/ 6 RPG/ 8 APG/ 3 SPG (52% FG)
'90 Vs Sixers: 43 PPG/ 7 RPG/ 7 APG/ 4 SPG/ 1.2 BPG (54% FG)
'91 Vs Sixers: 33 PPG/ 8 RPG/ 8 APG/ 1.8 SPG/ 1.4 BPG (49% FG)
'92 Vs Heat: 45 PPG/ 10 RPG/ 7 APG/ 3 SPG/ 1.8 BPG (61% FG)
'93 VS Hawks: 34 PPG/ 7 RPG/ 4 APG/ 1.7 SPG/ 1.7 BPG (53% FG)
'93 VS Suns: 41 PPG/ 9 RPG/ 6 APG/ 1.7 SPG (51% FG)
'88 Vs NY Knicks: 36 PPG/ 10 RPG/ 8 APG/ 2.5 SPG/ 1.3 SPG (55% FG)
'90 Vs Bucks: 37 PPG/ 8 RPG/ 7APG/ 2.5 SPG/ 1 BPG (54% FG)
'91 Vs Lakers: 31 PPG/ 7 RPG/ 11 APG/ 2.8 SPG/ 1.4 BPG (56%)
'92 Vs Blazers: 36 PPG/ 5 RPG/ 7 APG (53% FG)


The above are just strictly the series where he shot 49% or above and even then it's incomplete. The red is obviously series where he scored 40 PPG or more (39.8 PPG vs '89 Cavs, rounded up. Sue me).

But we're over here arguing like this is a debate? :biggums:

The man leads the all time list in the regular season at 30.1 PPG and 10 scoring titles won. He took it to a whole other level when the lights were brightest and, again, leads the all time list in playoff scoring at 33.4 PPG.

But we're gonna make believe this man has an equal or worse yet... a superior? :lol




http://philmcritics.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/cmon_son.jpg

[SamuraiSWISH]

Yeah but why didn't he do that against Phoenix in the playoffs? None of Kobe's signature high scoring games happened in the playoffs, while the only games people remember from MJ are playoff games, nobody cares that MJ dropped 58 in 3 quarters vs the Nets or 61 against the Hawks, but they remember his 63 against Boston or his 55 against Phoenix in the Finals. MJ raised his scoring to a level that Kobe never reached in the playoffs when his team needed it the most. That's the difference.
Good points. And basically the difference. I take MJ's ability to score more in the playoffs, Finals and against better teams than Kobe's insane scoring games, primarily in the regular season.

I prefer MJ's superior consistency, his superior ability to get to the rim, and finish. His superior mid range shooting ability, off the ball game, catch and shoot ability over Kobe's advantage of having more range on the long ball, but over confidence to lessen his consistency or efficiency.

I mean MJ could've scored 70 in that game 1 of the '92 Finals. He scored 54 in 3 quarters that playoffs v.s. Miami. MJ had his high scoring games. I remember him putting 48 on Stackhouse in 3 quarters after he talked shit about Jordan, then chilled on the bench the rest of the game.

Kobe when he got absurdly hot against usually inferior teams put up slightly more volume cause he hoists the long ball more than MJ. But on average it lessened his effecitveness compared to Jordan.

That's the difference between career:
MJ - 30 ppg
Kobe - 25 ppg

Regular Season High:
MJ - 69
Kobe - 81

Playoff High:
MJ - 63
Kobe - 50

Finals High:
MJ - 55
Kobe - 40

60+ point Games:
MJ - 4
Kobe - 5

Playoff 50 point Games:
MJ - 8
Kobe - 1

Playoff 60+ point Games:
MJ - 1
Kobe - 0

Kobe is a great scorer, no doubt. Most Laker stans prefer him simply due to his long ball, but they're both insanely skilled. Jordan has superior mid range, quickness, athleticism, bball IQ, and ability to finish at the rim which just makes him better.

Besides Jordan being my favorite player, I still take him. Doesn't mean Kobe is bad, he's just better. The numbers prove it.

[Micku]

The gap isn't as wide as some are making it seem. Kobe's got a definite argument here.

While I believe that Jordan was more generally more consistent/efficient, and ultimately I would rule in his favor, I also believe that peak Kobe is perhaps the most dominant perimeter streak scorer in NBA history.

Yeah. I agree that when Kobe was hot or on a streak, then he was impossible to guard.

But Jordan was more consistent and more efficient than him overall. Even with how he scored. When Kobe iso, he takes about five dribbles to make his move. Jordan took like 1 or 2. That's just one of many small differences. They are so similar, but there are so different at the same time with the small things.

And by 1992, Jordan took mainly jumpshots. He had an unstoppable midrange game. In 97, tho the 3pt line was shorter, he average 49% at the midrange. That's Dirk levels of midrange efficiency, but at more volume. He was probably better in his prime.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Let's look at their prime years

Kobe's 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010
Jordan's 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, and 1993

Kobe: 29.8 ppg
MJ: 32.0 ppg

Now, the playoffs is where there is clear separation

Kobe: 30.0 ppg
MJ: 34.4 ppg

Now, context. Regular season numbers are missing MJ's best statistical scoring seasons. His 37 ppg, and 35 ppg season. Why? He wasn't in his actual prime.

Kobe in his prime had freedom to gun at the peak of his abilities. MJ at his peak was fitting his game into a championship system, showing great levels of personal restraint.

[KyleKong]

Kobe has the most missed shots of all time and hasnt passed Jordan in scoring yet.
:lebronamazed:

[Micku]

Kobe in his prime had freedom to gun at the peak of his abilities. MJ at his peak was fitting his game into a championship system, showing great levels of personal restraint.

I always wonder about this. Jordan took more shots than Kobe within his championship runs (excluding Shaq-Kobe era). I always wondered why is that. I wonder if it was because the Lakers had more offensive weapons than the Bulls team.

Plus, Jordan in the 90s didn't get nearly as criticism as Kobe did for taking too many shots it seems. But Jordan shots came more within the offense more often than Kobe did.

[D.J.]

Let's compare similar PPG seasons between the two:


MJ('88, 35.0 PPG)
24.4 FGA
10.5 FTA
53.5% FG
54.6% 2PT
53.7% eFG
60.3% TS


Kobe('06, 35.4 PPG)
27.2 FGA
10.2 FTA
45.0% FG
48.2% 2PT
49.1% eFG
55.9% TS
-------------------------------------------------
MJ('92, 30.1 PPG)
22.7 FGA
7.4 FTA
51.9% FG
53.3% 2PT
52.6% eFG
57.9% TS


Kobe('03, 30.0 PPG)
23.5 FGA
8.7 FTA
45.1% FG
46.5% 2PT
48.3% eFG
55.0% TS
----------------------------------------------------
And just for kicks, we'll compare Jordan in '02 with Kobe in '00:


MJ('02, 22.9 PPG)
22.1 FGA
5.6 FTA
41.6% FG
42.6% 2PT
42.0% eFG
46.8 TS%


Kobe('00, 22.5 PPG)
17.9 FGA
6.1 FTA
46.8% FG
48.9% 2PT
48.8% eFG
54.6% TS
------------------------------------------------------
The answer is Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan at his scoring peak(which would be the late 80's) was scoring just as much, if not more than Kobe. He was doing so on fewer shot attempts, a significantly higher shooting percentage, and got to the line a bit more too. Now you can argue Kobe was more explosive and had a minimal advantage at the mid-range, which I wouldn't disagree with. But MJ was simply more consistent and dominant overall. He didn't have those poor shooting nights Kobe had.

And even during those 3-peats, MJ had a nearly flawless mid-range game like Kobe did. He didn't attack the hoop as much, but he was a smarter player.

[cos88]

how many times a month does this shit appear?

reported

[MichaelCorleone]

MJ

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Kobe at his peak scored 81 points. Jordan at his peak scored 69. Seems pretty obvious who was the better scorer at their peak.

:confusedshrug:

[Micku]

The answer is Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan at his scoring peak(which would be the late 80's) was scoring just as much, if not more than Kobe. He was doing so on fewer shot attempts, a significantly higher shooting percentage, and got to the line a bit more too. Now you can argue Kobe was more explosive and had a minimal advantage at the mid-range, which I wouldn't disagree with. But MJ was simply more consistent and dominant overall. He didn't have those poor shooting nights Kobe had.


It'll be curious on how someone would argue that.

Jordan in his prime was a beast at the mid range game because he took better shots and jumped higher. Even if the shot was well contested, he had crazy hangtime and hands to adjust. Plus he shot more from the midrange than anywhere else and still average 50% or more. Not that Kobe wasn't good at the midrange, but it always seem that Jordan was better at it.

[kamil]

Jordan's best statistical scoring seasons came BEFORE his abilities peaked as a scorer. While being the more dimensional player than Kobe.

Kobe's best statistical scoring season came at the absolute peak of his abilities when he abondoned playing defense, and focused soley on scoring ... relentlessly due to team necessity.

Kobe put up 35.4 ppg
Jordan PRE PRIME put up 37.1 ppg, and 35.0 ppg (DPOY)

The answer is kind of obvious.

Jordan's peak @ age 27 in 1990 put up 33.6 ppg in the regular season, and 36.7 ppg in the playoffs.

Kobe's peak @ age 27 in 2006 put up 35.4 ppg in the regular season, and 27.9 ppg in the playoffs.

That's a 9 ppg difference in MJ's favor @ their peaks in the playoffs, and a 1 ppg difference in the regular season in Kobe's favor ... where Jordan was clearly superior in every other facet of the game.

Who do you take? The one dimensional, scoring obsessed player who barely outperformed Jordan or the guy who raised his game in the playoffs, scoring near 10 ppg more in the most intense / important part of the season?

It's amazing how MJ got so much better when the games mattered more... unlike Kobe, and especially unlike LeBron*.

[SamuraiSWISH]

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m37udkh14n1qjinhbo1_500.gif

Great GIF

Jordan's best statistical scoring seasons came BEFORE his abilities peaked as a scorer. While being the more dimensional player than Kobe.

Kobe's best statistical scoring season came at the absolute peak of his abilities when he abondoned playing defense, and focused soley on scoring ... relentlessly due to team necessity.

Kobe put up 35.4 ppg
Jordan PRE PRIME put up 37.1 ppg, and 35.0 ppg (DPOY)

The answer is kind of obvious.

Jordan's peak @ age 27 in 1990 put up 33.6 ppg in the regular season, and 36.7 ppg in the playoffs.

Kobe's peak @ age 27 in 2006 put up 35.4 ppg in the regular season, and 27.9 ppg in the playoffs.

That's a 9 ppg difference in MJ's favor @ their peaks in the playoffs, and a 1 ppg difference in the regular season in Kobe's favor ... where Jordan was clearly superior in every other facet of the game where his energies may have been put to use elsewhere besides scoring.

Who do you take? The one dimensional, scoring obsessed player who barely outperformed Jordan in the regular season or the guy who raised his game in the playoffs, scoring near 10 ppg more in the most intense / important part of the season?


Not that Kobe wasn't good at the midrange, but it always seem that Jordan was better at it.
Definitely. Kobe had the superior long range game, but was over confident. Thus limiting his effectiveness overall, as well as consistency.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Jordan's peak @ age 27 in 1990 put up 33.6 ppg in the regular season, and 36.7 ppg in the playoffs.

Kobe's peak @ age 27 in 2006 put up 35.4 ppg in the regular season, and 27.9 ppg in the playoffs.

That's a 9 ppg difference in MJ's favor @ their peaks in the playoffs, and a 1 ppg difference in the regular season in Kobe's favor ... where Jordan was clearly superior in every other facet of the game where his energies may have been put to use elsewhere besides scoring.

Who do you take? The one dimensional, scoring obsessed player who barely outperformed Jordan in the regular season or the guy who raised his game in the playoffs, scoring near 10 ppg more in the most intense / important part of the season?

.

I will take the guy who outscored the other one will playing against more efficient defenses and at a slower pace over the course of an 82 game season .

Please tell me more about the very intense defenses Jordan faced in the playoffs though

108.1 108.4 103.5 :facepalm

Why Jordan was shot jacking so much the first two series is beyond me.... Pippen and Grant were collectively more efficient and could have benefited from some more shot attempts.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Please tell me more about Kobe only averaging 27.9 ppg v.s. the 105.8 DTrg 2006 Phoenix Suns.

Kobe stopped shooting in the second half of Game 7 to show management just how trash his teammates were.

:confusedshrug:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kobe stopped shooting in the second half of Game 7 to show management just how trash his teammates were.

:confusedshrug:
Whose fault is that though? MJ put up 4 more ppg against a superior defense in the conference Finals. When he too had a not so great game 7 to skew his averages.

Once again ... MJ is the superior scorer. Like the unanimous opinion in this thread.

:confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Whose fault is that though? MJ put up 4 more ppg against a superior defense in the conference Finals. When he too had a not so great game 7 to skew his averages.

Once again ... MJ is the superior scorer. Like the unanimous opinion in this thread.

:confusedshrug:

Do you realize that you are comparing three series of data with one?

A statistical anomaly in one game out of 7 is going to mean more any Jordan game that year. Not to mention that the Suns were actually more efficient defensively than the average Jordan playoff opponent that year which just goes to show just how trash the defenses Jordan faced on the regular,

You also apparently don't know what the word unanimous is.

[DonDadda59]

I will take the guy who outscored the other one will playing against more efficient defenses and at a slower pace over the course of an 82 game season .

Please tell me more about the very intense defenses Jordan faced in the playoffs though

108.1 108.4 103.5 :facepalm

Why Jordan was shot jacking so much the first two series is beyond me.... Pippen and Grant were collectively more efficient and could have benefited from some more shot attempts.

This dude just doesn't quit with that shit does he? :lol

Hey Foot, how do you think Bean would've fared against the '63-'64 Celtics and their 83.8 DRTG?

My guess is 4.9 PPG on 28% FG for the series. And I'm being generous.

[Cali Syndicate]

How sad.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Do you realize that you are comparing three series of data with one?
No, that's MJ's 7 game series v.s. Detroit compared to Kobe's 7 game series v.s. the Suns.

32 ppg on 47% v.s. 2nd ranked defense (champions)

v.s.

28 ppg on 50% v.s. 16th ranked defense

Excuse me, near unianimous. The vast majority, per usual takes MJ > Kobe. Only ones who don't are delusional Laker / Kobe stans such as yourself.

[DonDadda59]

No, that's MJ's 7 game series v.s. Detroit compared to Kobe's 7 game series v.s. the Suns.

32 ppg on 47% v.s. 2nd ranked defense (champions)
v.s.
28 ppg on 50% v.s. 16th ranked defense

buh buh buh Kobe openly quit on his team and pouted in a game 7 in the playoffs.

Like that's a valid excuse. At least Bron waited for the game to end before he quit on his guys :lol

[T_L_P]

You can talk about Kobe having better range and footwork or whatever else comes to mind, but the fact of the matter is Jordan put up more points in a more efficient manner.

The answer is MJ.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

This dude just doesn't quit with that shit does he? :lol

Hey Foot, how do you think Bean would've fared against the '63-'64 Celtics and their 83.8 DRTG?

My guess is 4.9 PPG on 28% FG for the series. And I'm being generous.

Well did you look at the Warriors guards numbers against them in the Finals?

25%, 35%, 33%, 26%

:confusedshrug:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Like that's a valid excuse.
All he does is make excuses for why Kobe should be considered better than Jordan. Instead of relying on positive reasons why one would take Kobe over Jordan.

That's why his whole theory revolves around exclusively DTrg. MJ's best scoring games as a 39, and 40 year old on one knee came against the #1 ranked DTrg New Jersey Nets defense during this "superior defensive era" time period too.


At least Bron waited for the game to end before he quit on his guys :lol
Nah, LeBron quit on the Cavs mid series v.s. Boston. Same in the 2011 Finals.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

No, that's MJ's 7 game series v.s. Detroit compared to Kobe's 7 game series v.s. the Suns.

32 ppg on 47% v.s. 2nd ranked defense (champions)

v.s.

28 ppg on 50% v.s. 16th ranked defense

Excuse me, near unianimous. The vast majority, per usual takes MJ > Kobe. Only ones who don't are delusional Laker / Kobe stans such as yourself.

Of course Jordan mythologists would prefer within season rankings. Helps mask the leaguewide stat inflation. :oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

buh buh buh Kobe openly quit on his team and pouted in a game 7 in the playoffs.

Like that's a valid excuse. At least Bron waited for the game to end before he quit on his guys :lol

Gotta be like Mike right?

Oh wait... we like to pretend on ISH that Jordan didn't quit on his team costing them potentially two championships to stomp on ant fields in the outfield.

:roll:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

MJ comfortably. I would say Lebron and Durant are better scorers than Kobe as well.

[DonDadda59]

Well did you look at the Warriors guards numbers against them in the Finals?

25%, 35%, 33%, 26%

:confusedshrug:

GOAT defense? :eek:


Gotta be like Mike right?

Oh wait... we like to pretend on ISH that Jordan didn't quit on his team costing them potentially two championships to stomp on ant fields in the outfield.

He retired after winning them 3 straight championships, then came back to win 3 more. Didn't quit on them DURING a game like Bean and Pippen did. That shit is unforgivable. Especially in a Game 7 of all times. Ridiculous.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

GOAT defense? :eek:

I don't know why you are surprised that a team with a demonstrated ability to limit efficiency over the course of the season was successful at limiting efficiency in the playoffs. :confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

GOAT defense? :eek:



He retired after winning them 3 straight championships, then came back to win 3 more. Didn't quit on them DURING a game like Bean and Pippen did. That shit is unforgivable. Especially in a Game 7 of all times. Ridiculous.

Oh yeah how could I forget. He lost his will to play basketball after racking up a whopping 3 championships. So mentally tough.. :bowdown: :bowdown: :oldlol:

[DonDadda59]

I don't know why you are surprised that a team with a demonstrated ability to limit efficiency over the course of the season was successful at limiting efficiency in the playoffs. :confusedshrug:

I'm not surprised at all, just testing your bullshitability. So that begs the question... we're all in agreement that 60s-70s defense was the greatest ever, right?


Oh yeah how could I forget. He lost his will to play basketball after racking up a whopping 3 championships. So mentally tough..

And his father dying. No big deal though. Still doesn't change the fact that he came back and won 3 more.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Of course Jordan mythologists would prefer within season rankings. Helps mask the leaguewide stat inflation. :oldlol:
Not inflation, just contemporary ranking makes more sense. Playing styles change, deliberate slower pace is just as important in lowering DTrg.

It's fools gold, the only thing to cling to for Kobe apostles to validate Kobe's clearly inferior scoring numbers as being the superior scorer.

Doesn't mean it's more difficult for a player to score either, usually doesn't change the amount of field goals a superstar would be able to get up either in a half court. Jordan, and Kobe are the best half court shot creators in the modern era.

'90 Pistons had a a lower ranking than the '06 Suns though, so what's your point? Any more excuses from the head of the delusional Kobe apostle?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Not inflation, just contemporary ranking makes more sense. Playing styles change, deliberate slower pace is just as important in lowering DTrg.

It's fools gold, the only thing to cling to for Kobe apostles to consider Kobe's clearly inferior scoring numbers to validate their delusional opinion he's the superior scorer.

Doesn't mean it's more difficult for a player to score either, usually doesn't change the amount of field goals a superstar would be able to get up either in a half court. Jordan, and Kobe are the best half court shot creators in the modern era.

'90 Pistons had a a lower ranking than the '06 Suns though, so what's your point? Any more excuses from the head of the delusional Kobe apostle?

You are simply delusional. Its like clinging to the belief that getting an A at a school with a 3.5 average GPA is equally impressive as getting an A at a school with a 2.5 average GPA.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I'm not surprised at all, just testing your bullshitability. So that begs the question... we're all in agreement that 60s-70s defense was the greatest ever, right?



And his father dying. No big deal though. Still doesn't change the fact that he came back and won 3 more.

I never said anything about greatest. Its about limiting efficiency. Did they limit efficiency better than every other generation? If so, given identical offensive numbers they would be most impressive if done in that era. This is common sense.

Its cool man. I'm sure nobody else's parents died in the NBA such that they quit a championship level team to waste everyone's time playing minor league ball.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Well did you look at the Warriors guards numbers against them in the Finals?

25%, 35%, 33%, 26%
Guy Rodgers and his 11 ppg were UNSTOPPABLE to be compared to the GOAT (Jordan) and top ten (Kobe), right?

:facepalm

[DonDadda59]

You are simply delusional.

Interesting. Well, maybe you can clear something up for me... 2nd year bean, all star, playing in the weakest of defensive eras.

Tell me then, kind sir, how he put up 10 PPG on 37% shooting against the same defensively weak squad ( 105.4 DRTG :eek: ) that 35 year old Jordan won Finals MVP a few weeks later against.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I'm sure nobody else's parents died in the NBA such that they quit a championship level team to waste everyone's time playing minor league ball.
Maybe Jordan by that point was bored of domination because no one could challenge him on an individual level? MJ didn't have a LeBron, like Kobe who totally surpassed him as a player.

Or maybe he truly did want to become a professional baseball player, in combination with his father dying, playing baseball being a physical manifestation of love for his father. He was on pace, getting better. He could've achieve that goal before the baseball strike.

He was just that athletically talented. Comes back leads the Bulls to 3 more consecutive, wins 2x MVPs. Retires for good.

Sees the press comparing younger players to him, being so competitive he gets pissed, and comes back as a 39/40 year old to compete against guy's near half his age. Does well too all things considering.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Interesting. Well, maybe you can clear something up for me... 2nd year bean, all star, playing in the weakest of defensive eras.

Tell me then, kind sir, how he put up 10 PPG on 37% shooting against the same defensively weak squad ( 105.4 DRTG :eek: ) that 35 year old Jordan won Finals MVP a few weeks later against.

He was a teenager, playing against grown men.


At that age others were playing dress up in their dorm room

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0909/cbk.michael.jordan.college.years/images/michael-jordan-dorm-room.jpg

:confusedshrug:

[SamuraiSWISH]

You are simply delusional. Its like clinging to the belief that getting an A at a school with a 3.5 average GPA is equally impressive as getting an A at a school with a 2.5 average GPA.
This is your very logic.

2006 Suns 105.8 defensive rating (16th) - Kobe 28 ppg on 50%
1990 Pistons 103.5 defensive rating (2nd) - Jordan 32 ppg on 47%

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Maybe Jordan by that point was bored of domination because no one could challenge him on an individual level? MJ didn't have a LeBron, like Kobe who totally surpassed him as a player.

Or maybe he truly did want to become a professional baseball player, in combination with his father dying, playing baseball being a physical manifestation of love for his father. He was on pace, getting better. He could've achieve that goal before the baseball strike.

He was just that athletically talented. Comes back leads the Bulls to 3 more consecutive, wins 2x MVPs. Retires for good.

Sees the press comparing younger players to him, being so competitive he gets pissed, and comes back as a 39/40 year old to compete against guy's near half his age. Does well too all things considering.

I already mentioned how he was so mentally weak that he lacked the internal motivation after winning a mere 3 championships. Kobe already had 3 before Lebron ever laced up his sneakers. But if it makes you feel better to think that Kobe was sweating a teenager and would have quit like Jordan without him be my guest.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

This is your very logic.

2006 Suns 105.8 defensive rating (16th) - Kobe 28 ppg on 50%
1990 Pistons 103.5 defensive rating (2nd) - Jordan 32 ppg on 47%

Weird I don't remember saying that Kobe's performance against the Suns was more impressive than Jordan's against the Pistons... can you find the quote on that one?

[DonDadda59]

He was a teenager, playing against grown men.

He was an all star, led the league in bench scoring at 15.4 PPG... although on his usual less than stellar shooting (regardless of era, defensive rating never got above the 47% barrier :oldlol: ). And I was led to believe any team that had a DRTG over 100 was shit. :confusedshrug:

I mean the 4 airballs in the clutch during the playoffs in his rookie year could be brushed aside as youthful indiscretion... but an all star putting up 10 PPG on 37% shooting in a playoff series against a team with a DRTG of 105.4?

That's inexplicable :biggums:

[SamuraiSWISH]

I already mentioned how he was so mentally weak that he lacked the internal motivation after winning a mere 3 championships.
Or he was so mentally strong that he risked his reputation trying to become a professional baseball player.

A sport he hadn't played since HS, with his failures in front of the world to see on his quest.

That's very definition of mental strength.


Kobe already had 3 before Lebron ever laced up his sneakers.
Thanks Shaq for being so dominant. Oh, and LeBron > Kobe.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

He was an all star, led the league in bench scoring at 15.4 PPG... although on his usual less than stellar shooting (regardless of era, defensive rating never got above the 47% barrier :oldlol: ). And I was led to believe any team that had a DRTG over 100 was shit. :confusedshrug:

I mean the 4 airballs in the clutch during the playoffs in his rookie year could be brushed aside as youthful indiscretion... but an all star putting up 10 PPG on 37% shooting in a playoff series against a team with a DRTG of 105.4?

That's inexplicable :biggums:

Its inexplicable for a bench player to have poor efficiency against a relatively poor defense at an age most NBA players are not even in the league?

Strong logic.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Weird I don't remember saying that Kobe's performance against the Suns was more impressive than Jordan's against the Pistons... can you find the quote on that one?
You're insinuating Kobe is the clear cut better scorer, which he clearly isn't. You've passive-aggresively insinuated Kobe's clearly superior to Jordan as a player. You insinuate many things without saying it directly, because you lack the fortitude of your delusional convinctions.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Or he was so mentally strong that he risked his reputation trying to become a professional baseball player.

A sport he hadn't played since HS, with his failures in front of the world to see on his quest.

That's very definition of mental strength.
.

About as mentally strong as Kobe dropping this hit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpzJgLzzX38

Except for Kobe should have wasted two seasons touring. Then he would have been like his highness.

:facepalm

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You're insinuating Kobe is the clear cut better scorer, which he clearly isn't. You've passive-aggresively insinuated Kobe's clearly superior to Jordan as a player. You insinuate many things without saying it directly, because you lack the fortitude of your delusional convinctions.

From where exactly did you get the impression that I insinuated that Kobe's performance against the Suns was more impressive than Jordan's against the Pistons?

[DonDadda59]

Its inexplicable for a bench player to have poor efficiency against a relatively poor defense at an age most NBA are not even in the league?

Strong logic.

He was an all star and the leading bench scorer in the league. Can you imagine if a second year Lebron put up 10 PPG on 37% shooting in a playoff series with Shaq, Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel, etc as teammates against a team with a 105.4 DRTG?

Or even putting up 15.6 PPG on 37% shooting in the finals his 4th year against a team with a 103.6 DRTG?

Dude would've gotten massacred by fans and the press. Oh well, better players are held to different standards I suppose. Having the Big Eraser doesn't hurt either :rockon:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

He was an all star and the leading bench scorer in the league. Can you imagine if a second year Lebron put up 10 PPG on 37% shooting in a playoff series with Shaq, Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel, etc as teammates against a team with a 105.4 DRTG?

Or even putting up 15.6 PPG on 37% shooting in the finals his 4th year against a team with a 103.6 DRTG?

Dude would've gotten massacred by fans and the press. Oh well, better players are held to different standards I suppose. Having the Big Eraser doesn't hurt either :rockon:

Weird because I seem to remember him averaging 22 ppg on 36% FG while getting swept in the Finals and still being worshiped despite only beating one team with a winning record to get there in his 4th year in the league. :confusedshrug:

[diamenz]

mike had the better offensive iq and was therefore the better scorer. he took better shots and took higher percentage shots.

it's close tho. scoring wise, that is.

[Mr Feeny]

He was a teenager, playing against grown men.


At that age others were playing dress up in their dorm room

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0909/cbk.michael.jordan.college.years/images/michael-jordan-dorm-room.jpg

:confusedshrug:

And hitting championship winning NCAA shots.

[DonDadda59]

Weird because I seem to remember him averaging 22 ppg on 36% FG while getting swept in the Finals and still being worshiped despite only beating one team with a winning record to get there in his 4th year in the league. :confusedshrug:

Lebron had 22 PPG on 36% FG against a Spurs team that had a 99.9 DRTG (cutting it real close... almost couldn't get away with this excuse, by a f*ckin hair). Plus he didn't have a prime Diesel, otherwise just 15.6 on 37% would've been enough to win his first ring. 22 on 36% is just overachieving and showing off, especially against a sub 100 DRTG team.

I mean, it's not as bad as Bean putting up 26 PPG on 35% FG shooting in 2002 against a Portland team that had a 104 DRTG.

So what's the excuse there? Wasn't a teenager. Still had Shaq. DRTG well over 100.

What gives? 36 year old Pippen give him the business? :confusedshrug:

[Mr Feeny]

I already mentioned how he was so mentally weak that he lacked the internal motivation after winning a mere 3 championships. Kobe already had 3 before Lebron ever laced up his sneakers. But if it makes you feel better to think that Kobe was sweating a teenager and would have quit like Jordan without him be my guest.What motivation would he have after being the first person to 3 peat as lead-dog in the modern era. Magic and Isiah had already anointed him the greatest of all time by rhe time the 93 season had finished. Once you'vd reached the top of the hill, there is nothing much to keep you going but you wouldn't know anything about that ofcoursr. Your favorite player is barely top 11. .:cheers:

[Mr Feeny]

Lebron had 22 PPG on 36% FG against a Spurs team that had a 99.9 DRTG (cutting it real close... almost couldn't get away with this excuse, by a f*ckin hair). Plus he didn't have a prime Diesel, otherwise just 15.6 on 37% would've been enough to win his first ring. 22 on 36% is just overachieving and showing off, especially against a sub 100 DRTG team.

I mean, it's not as bad as Bean putting up 26 PPG on 35% FG shooting in 2002 against a Portland team that had a 104 DRTG.

So what's the excuse there? Wasn't a teenager. Still had Shaq. DRTG well over 100.

What gives? 36 year old Pippen give him the business? :confusedshrug:

Worse
Kobe shot 38% on single coverage against Prince, the same guy Lebron torched to almost single handedly drag a bunch of scrubs to the finals. Like you said, with no Shaq to command the defense's attention either. Instead, Sasha Pavlovic was Lebron's running mate:biggums:

[DonDadda59]

Worse
Kobe shot 38% on single coverage against Prince, the same guy Lebron torched too almost single handedly drag a bunch of scrubs to the finals. Like you said, with no Shaq to command the defense's attention either. Instead, Sasha Pavlovic was Lebron's running mate:biggums:

He's gonna use the DRTG excuse though. Bean has had plenty of sub 40% shooting playoff series, yet somehow (:cough:, Diesel) was able to magically still win a ring. Truly, the GOAT.

Dude is an absolute clown. He just refuses to let go of his bullshit that has been ripped to shreds a million times on this board. But he makes it so fun so I just play along, you should try it :oldlol:

[Mr Feeny]

He's gonna use the DRTG excuse though. Bean has had plenty of sub 40% shooting playoff series, yet somehow (:cough:, Diesel) was able to magically still win a ring. Truly, the GOAT.

Dude is an absolute clown. He just refuses to let go of his bullshit that has been ripped to shreds a million times on this board. But he makes it so fun so I just play along, you should try it :oldlol:

He's going to argue that 36% shooting is actually great because of Drating? I doubt he's that stupid or that he actually believes that. But then again im new here, and I see strange things in this place every day.

[Soundwave]

MJ is simply more efficient, that's all there is to it.

Kobe can still be baited fairly easily into playing hero/chuck ball.

One of the most underrated things about Jordan is he may be the best player in NBA history at being able to make adjustments within a game.

There plenty of times where Jordan would start a game ice cold or it wouldn't look like his night, but by the 3rd or 4th quarter he would change his strategy and find other ways to score or contribute.

Kobe isn't as nuanced in his offensive game. If he's hot, he's hot, but he can't "wrestle" control of the game the way Jordan could just through pure savvy.

Kobe's game is in some ways is kinda of robotic ... you can almost see him mentally go into "score mode", then into "facilitator mode", then into "I should play some tough D here" mode, and sometimes into "f*ck the game plan, it's Kobe time" mode. Jordan's game was more seamless.

[Warfan]

Jordan. Higher volume, more efficient as well as being more consistent. He amped up his scoring in the playoffs and especially the finals, and rarely had poor shooting series in his career. Mj's got the edge in attacking and finishing at the rim, playing better off the ball and being a better catch and shoot player along with having a better mid range game, and certainly has the edge in shot selection. There skill level is certainly comparable though but effectiveness is a different story, and that's what it mainly comes down to.

[MichaelCorleone]

Thread ended when the title read "MJ @ His Peak..."

[Dragonyeuw]

Maybe Jordan by that point was bored of domination because no one could challenge him on an individual level? MJ didn't have a LeBron, like Kobe who totally surpassed him as a player.
.

On one of those MJ highlight videos( cant recall which), he spoke to sitting down with Phil to come up with challenges, and they couldn't come up with one. This was at the start of the 93 season. Bearing in mind that he had come off back to back titles, an Olympic gold, 2 of the last 3 mvps, 6 straight scoring titles, and no player/team playing at that time who seemed capable of knocking him off his perch....this was a guy who lived for challenges, using any little thing as motivation.

I think the Bulls losing in 95 was honestly a great thing,Jordan came back hungry and focused, with the challenge he had sought a few years ago. We all know how that turned out....3 more rings with matching fmvps, 2mvps, 3 scoring titles, and the rest as they say is history.

[Nevaeh]

Oh yeah how could I forget. He lost his will to play basketball after racking up a whopping 3 championships. So mentally tough.. :bowdown: :bowdown: :oldlol:


You always seem to leave out the "But came Back and won 3 more as DA MAN" part, for some reason. And he didn't let 6 straight years lapse in between, before winning 3 straight rings again, like your boy (almost... oops) did.

:cheers:

Yep, you're riding solo these days it seems, YMF ...................

Should think about changing your name to KBA, for " Kobe's Achilles" clown.........

[aboss4real24]

He was a teenager, playing against grown men.


At that age others were playing dress up in their dorm room

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0909/cbk.michael.jordan.college.years/images/michael-jordan-dorm-room.jpg

:confusedshrug:

Lebron was a teen playing vs grown men also

and avgd 20 5 5

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Lebron was a teen playing vs grown men also

and avgd 20 5 5

In the playoffs?

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe's supporters always bring up the "2004 PISTONS GOAT DEFENSE!!!"

They don't realize Kobe was being single-covered in that series. He got shut the **** down by Prince and RIP.

[theoneneo]

Yea but, I'd imagine if Young Kobe played on a team of his own(with no Shaq, no Phil) He'd have better post season numbers(Probably wouldn't have three out of his five rings, but It's not like you guys give him credit for it anyway)

Still, I'd say Jordan.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

On one of those MJ highlight videos( cant recall which), he spoke to sitting down with Phil to come up with challenges, and they couldn't come up with one. This was at the start of the 93 season. Bearing in mind that he had come off back to back titles, an Olympic gold, 2 of the last 3 mvps, 6 straight scoring titles, and no player/team playing at that time who seemed capable of knocking him off his perch....this was a guy who lived for challenges, using any little thing as motivation.

I think the Bulls losing in 95 was honestly a great thing,Jordan came back hungry and focused, with the challenge he had sought a few years ago. We all know how that turned out....3 more rings with matching fmvps, 2mvps, 3 scoring titles, and the rest as they say is history.

How about win more rings than Magic?
How about win more rings than Russell?
How about score more than Wilt, Kareem and Oscar?
How about just be the best you could be because it's your job?

You guys really buy into the mythology heavy...wow :facepalm

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Kobe's supporters always bring up the "2004 PISTONS GOAT DEFENSE!!!"

They don't realize Kobe was being single-covered in that series. He got shut the **** down by Prince and RIP.

Was Michael Redd single covered as well? How about Reggie Miller? Or Jason Kidd? You guys realize the Pistons faced other teams prior to Kobe being the 2nd most efficient Laker against them right?

[ArbitraryWater]

Was Michael Redd single covered as well? How about Reggie Miller? Or Jason Kidd? You guys realize the Pistons faced other teams prior to Kobe being the 2nd most efficient Laker against them right?

Sorry mate, Kobe was their 5th most "efficient" player.

BTW I don't see what your argument is with the Redd/Miller/Kidd thing?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Sorry mate, Kobe was their 5th most "efficient" player.

BTW I don't see what your argument is with the Redd/Miller/Kidd thing?



Look at their playoff numbers against the 04 Pistons and whatever you are looking at to demote efficiency is wrong.

[aboss4real24]

MJ Was a better scorer in the playoffs

dont think u can debate that

[Dragonyeuw]

How about win more rings than Magic?
How about win more rings than Russell?
How about score more than Wilt, Kareem and Oscar?
How about just be the best you could be because it's your job?

You guys really buy into the mythology heavy...wow :facepalm

What mythology? Those words about lack of challenges came from Jordan's own mouth, take it up with him.

At the end of the day, asides from score more than Kareem and win more rings than Russell, everything else on that list he wound up achieving, with 1 1/2 years away during his prime.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What mythology? Those words about lack of challenges came from Jordan's own mouth, take it up with him.

At the end of the day, asides from score more than Kareem and win more rings than Russell, everything else on that list he wound up achieving, with 1 1/2 years away during his prime.

The mythology that he was justified in his delusions. As if he was so above and beyond everyone that nothing could motivate him. As if Kareem wasn't shitting all over his career and still is to this day. What he accomplished after the fact is completely irrelevant to his mental weakness at that moment.

[Young X]

:facepalm It's not close.

It's not close when the other player has no reasonable argument at all.

MJ averages more points with higher efficiency in the regular season and especially the playoffs. Most of Kobe's highest scoring games were against bum teams in the regular season, MJ was doing that against elite teams in the playoffs when his team needed it the most. You're just going to ignore that?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:facepalm It's not close.

It's not close when the other player has no reasonable argument at all.

MJ averages more points with higher efficiency in the regular season and especially the playoffs. Most of Kobe's highest scoring games were against bum teams in the regular season, MJ was doing that against elite teams in the playoffs when his team needed it the most. You're just going to ignore that?

1. What are these elite teams you speak of?
2. How good were they at limiting efficiency that season?
3, How does that compare to the typical Kobe playoff opponent?
4. Kill yourself

[Young X]

1. What are these elite teams you speak of?
2. How good were they at limiting efficiency that season?
3, How does that compare to the typical Kobe playoff opponent?
4. Kill yourself63 against 65 win Celtics (1st ranked defense)
54 against 60 win Knicks (1st ranked defense)
50 against 57 win Cavs (2nd ranked defense)
55 against 62 win Suns (9th ranked defense)
etc...

These are all better than Kobe's highest scoring games in the playoffs and the teams are all just as god if not better defensively than the 06 and 07 Suns teams Kobe faced.

F*ggot.

[mehyaM24]

jordan. lets not act like defenses are comparable though

the 90s were filled with midgets and coke addicts. the swingmen were weak as hell too.

[moe94]

jordan. lets not act like defenses are comparable though

the 90s were filled with midgets and coke addicts. the swingmen were weak as hell too.

http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Lamar+Odom+Nate+Robinson+NBA+Finals+Game+4+NpnSGSM gmoEl.jpg

[Vienceslav]

Jordan 90% of the time, Kobe when he got hot.
Their games are very similar, down to the specific moves and their execution(fadeaways, baseline spins...).
Kobe was a better 3 point shooter, I'd give him that much.

[AlphaWolf24]

Yeah but why didn't he do that against Phoenix in the playoffs? None of Kobe's signature high scoring games happened in the playoffs, while the only games people remember from MJ are playoff games, nobody cares that MJ dropped 58 in 3 quarters vs the Nets or 61 against the Hawks, but they remember his 63 against Boston or his 55 against Phoenix in the Finals. MJ raised his scoring to a level that Kobe never reached in the playoffs when his team needed it the most. That's the difference.


Kobe did score 50 against PHX in the playoff's :confusedshrug:

Even Game 7 in 06' he had 20 points at halftime and easily could have scored 40+....he chose to facilitate and feed Odom / Brown because PHX could outgun L.A. KB tried to slow the pace way down.

People do remember MJ's 63 point game....Most don't remember the Bull's lost that game....and in the following game MJ only scored 15 points (only 4 points in the 4th quarter) and was swept.

Growing up most people talked about MJ's 69 point game then they did his 63 point game that the Bull's lost.


- Saying Kobe doesn't have any Great playoff scoring moments is F'ing ridiculous....and it shows you don't know sh!t about Hoop.

- 01' alone Kobe raised his scoring ability to a level very few players ever reach...48 vs the Kings in the closeout game....45 vs the spurs an absolute Dominating series by Kobe against the 2nd greatest team of his era...

sh!t his 01' playoff run was better then Wade in 06' and on par with any of MJ's 96 - 98 runs.


- 08' playoffs was beast...49pts vs AI and Melo...39 vs the spurs and Bruce Bowen in the closeout game...

- 09' Kobe was again Dominate.

- 10' another absolute beast playoff year....

countless scoring beast mode games in playoff's.....countless beast mode comebacks....Here in L.A. we never forget.


stay mad..... blind H8's.....2EZ...next

[FaceBack]

One on one it's Kobe, five on five it's Jordan.

[AlphaWolf24]

Kobe isn't as nuanced in his offensive game. If he's hot, he's hot, but he can't "wrestle" control of the game the way Jordan could just through pure savvy.

Kobe's game is in some ways is kinda of robotic ... you can almost see him mentally go into "score mode", then into "facilitator mode", then into "I should play some tough D here" mode, and sometimes into "f*ck the game plan, it's Kobe time" mode. Jordan's game was more seamless.


(Bolded) is pure BS....Jordan wrestled control of games the same way Kobe does....by shooting.

the fact that MJ had 5 sub .500 seasons ( 5 seasons with Losing records)isn't very favorable.

Granted he was hurt in 86'....but even still his team was on a similar pace without him. ( as the were in 94')

- This whole argument that MJ could take over a game on "savvy" is revisionist history at it's finest.

MJ took over games by telling his teammates to "GTFO and give me the ball"

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe did score 50 against PHX in the playoff's :confusedshrug:

Even Game 7 in 06' he had 20 points at halftime and easily could have scored 40+....he chose to facilitate and feed Odom / Brown because PHX could outgun L.A. KB tried to slow the pace way down.

People do remember MJ's 63 point game....Most don't remember the Bull's lost that game....and in the following game MJ only scored 15 points (only 4 points in the 4th quarter) and was swept.

Growing up most people talked about MJ's 69 point game then they did his 63 point game that the Bull's lost.


- Saying Kobe doesn't have any Great playoff scoring moments is F'ing ridiculous....and it shows you don't know sh!t about Hoop.

- 01' alone Kobe raised his scoring ability to a level very few players ever reach...48 vs the Kings in the closeout game....45 vs the spurs an absolute Dominating series by Kobe against the 2nd greatest team of his era...

sh!t his 01' playoff run was better then Wade in 06' and on par with any of MJ's 96 - 98 runs.


- 08' playoffs was beast...49pts vs AI and Melo...39 vs the spurs and Bruce Bowen in the closeout game...

- 09' Kobe was again Dominate.

- 10' another absolute beast playoff year....

countless scoring beast mode games in playoff's.....countless beast mode comebacks....Here in L.A. we never forget.


stay mad..... blind H8's.....2EZ...next


1st Half: Kobe with 23 - Down 15
2nd Half: Kobe with 1 - Down 31

Basically, Kobe in the 1 Half was GOAT, Kobe in the 2nd Half was WOAT. (Kobe's constant problem. Either takes like 25+ Shots or only takes 10 Shots. Dude can't find the "golden middle", the fine line.)

Yet both Halfs the Team roughly lost them by 15 points each.

Edit: Yea, Kobe's best runs are comparable with Jordan 1996-1998! Jordan 1996-1988 wasn't peak Jordan however. 1991-1993 Jordan Runs are what make him the GOAT. The best&most dominant 3 Year Runs a long with Shaq 2000-2002. We're in one of LeBron right now too.
MJ 1996-1998 were great and everything, but not this GODLY 1991-1993 stuff. Which Kobe could never touch.

[DonDadda59]

You Bean stans must feel all kinds of stupid after making those ridiculous excuses for why he couldn't get his efficiency up in a softer era. He was too stupid to figure out how to play against the 'zone' aka defense that AAU kids know how to beat. The players in the 6 years between '98 and '04 evolved to be monstrous, hyper athletic, super strong giant freaks.

Must feel like real fools watching a guy who couldn't put up a single rep of 185 lbs on the bench press working on his 4th scoring title. Or watching a guy with a questionable jumper shoot damn near 60% while coasting. :lol

Simple truth is, all of those excuses have been exposed for the jokes they were. Kobe was just never good enough to accomplish that feat (shooting at least 50%) in damn near 2 decades of basketball.


- This whole argument that MJ could take over a game on "savvy" is revisionist history at it's finest.

MJ took over games by telling his teammates to "GTFO and give me the ball"

The f*ck are you talking about? Even their mutual coach has gone on record several times about this being the case- MJ was much better at getting his within the flow of the game/system and Kobe would often times derail the team with his mindless chucking. In fact, in '99 Phil brought in a then retired Jordan to talk to Bean about his low IQ ways, and guess how this marmaluke responded:


“Let’s meet in the chairman’s room after the game, I want you to talk to Kobe a little,” Jackson recalled asking Jordan. “I think if you convince him to just wait, just be patient allow the game to come to him … because the team kind of loses their offensive direction.”

Jackson led Jordan into the meeting room where Kobe was waiting.

“The first thing Kobe says is, ‘I could kick your ass one-on-one,’” Jackson said.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/01/phil-jackson-kobe-told-michael-jordan-he-would-kick-his-ass/

You can't make this stuff up, people :oldlol:








:facepalm

[SamuraiSWISH]

It must be frustarating being a Kobe / Laker stan:

http://theharlemtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Jordan-Lebron1.jpg

[mehyaM24]

You Bean stans must feel all kinds of stupid after making those ridiculous excuses for why he couldn't get his efficiency up in a softer era. He was too stupid to figure out how to play against the 'zone' aka defense that AAU kids know how to beat. The players in the 6 years between '98 and '04 evolved to be monstrous, hyper athletic, super strong giant freaks.

all true, but jordan had NO competition in the 90s at his position(on the wing).

durant 13-14, lebron 09-14, kobe 06-08 >>> 96-98 jordan.

12, 13, 14 lebron > 88-91 jordan

[DonDadda59]

all true, but jordan had NO competition in the 90s at his position(on the wing).

He has no competition at his position in any decade, but the boys in the 90s tried their hardest:

Clyde
Penny
Dumars
Sprewell
Reggie
Mitch
Starks
Smith
Majerle

And a host of defensive specialists that played 1-3 (ie: Payton, Russell, Rodman, etc). And Jordan's real competition were the giants- Malone, Shaq, Dream, Robinson, etc. And he dominated in an era where conventional wisdom said great big men>great little men, before the league stacked the deck for swingmen to get inflated stats.


durant 13-14, lebron 09-14, kobe 06-08 >>> 96-98 jordan.

Maybe if you take all of their accomplishments and put them together. Even then Jordan would still have 1 more ring and finals MVP, and be tied in scoring titles. Not bad for being past his prime :applause:


12, 13, 14 lebron > 88-91 jordan

No.

[mehyaM24]

He has no competition at his position in any decade, but the boys in the 90s tried their hardest:

Clyde
Penny
Dumars
Sprewell
Reggie
Mitch
Starks
Smith
Majerle

LMAO

kobe and lebron are BOTH top 10 players. 2 of the 10 greatest players ever,and durant is already better than everybody on that list. im not even mentioning dwhistle, who while i feel is overrated, is better than all those bums except for maybe clyde.

like i said. no competition.

[ArbitraryWater]

No.

Yes. God yes. 2012-2014 LeBron > 1989-1991 Jordan. And that's not even something to be ashamed of.

1991-1993 would be the real test. If Bron 3-peats with MVP/FMVP then we'll have enough time to debate that.

[ArbitraryWater]

LMAO

kobe and lebron are BOTH top 10 players. 2 of the 10 greatest players ever,and durant is already better than everybody on that list. im not even mentioning dwhistle, who while i feel is overrated, is better than all those bums except for maybe clyde.

like i said. no competition.

who cares about wing players only though??? Why leave out the bigs?

[mehyaM24]

who cares about wing players only though??? Why leave out the bigs?

i was only talking about jordan's wing competition. we all know the bigs were better in the 80s & 90s.

[DonDadda59]

LMAO

kobe and lebron are BOTH top 10 players. 2 of the 10 greatest players ever,and durant is already better than everybody on that list. im not even mentioning dwhistle, who while i feel is overrated, is better than all those bums except for maybe clyde.

like i said. no competition.

And Lebron teamed up with his competition (it was generally accepted in '10 that Bron, Wade, and Bean were in contention for best in the league). And if he has his way, Melo will be on the team as well. Jordan had plenty of competition on the wing, but his greatest rivals (if you can call that one sided ass whooping that) were the greatest collection of dominant bigs the league has ever seen.

All Bron has to worry about (not counting the players he's been collecting like Pokemon) is an old ass Duncan who was a Jesus miracle away from beating him (again) in the finals. Just look at who was winning championships and the major awards when Jordan took a breather from the game after the first 3-peat.

The NBA pre 2005ish was a big man's league, always had been. And Jordan dominated in an era when the best of the best of them played.

[DonDadda59]

Yes. God yes. 2012-2014 LeBron > 1989-1991 Jordan. And that's not even something to be ashamed of.


'88-'91 Jordan: 33 PPG/ 7 RPG/ 6APG/ 3SPG/ 1 BPG (54% FG). 2 MVPs, DPOY, Finals MVP, 4 scoring titles, bunch of all NBA teams

'88-'91 Jordan Playoffs: 35 PPG/ 7 RPG/ 7 APG/ 2.5 SPG/ 1 BPG (52% FG) Had a few 40 PPG series.

Da Fuq am I missing here? What has Lebron done that trumps that? :wtf:

Dude formed the super friends and continually begs for a DPOY

[ArbitraryWater]

i was only talking about jordan's wing competition. we all know the bigs were better in the 80s & 90s.

well whats the point of that?? we know wing is worse, big was better.

Oh, and wing is better top heavy, but balanced across?

[ArbitraryWater]

'88-'91 Jordan: 33 PPG/ 7 RPG/ 6APG/ 3SPG/ 1 BPG (54% FG). 2 MVPs, DPOY, Finals MVP, 4 scoring titles, bunch of all NBA teams

'88-'91 Jordan Playoffs: 35 PPG/ 7 RPG/ 7 APG/ 2.5 SPG/ 1 BPG (52% FG) Had a few 40 PPG series.

Da Fuq am I missing here? What has Lebron done that trumps that? :wtf:

Dude formed the super friends and continually begs for a DPOY

I think were past the All NBA Teams thing :lol This is Jordan/LeBron, of course they got 'em.

Now, 88-91 is 4 Years, but okay.

Basically the only Edge MJ holds is Scoring. Let Samurai explain that "green lights to chuck" thing. At least for 1988-1990. 24 FGA, 22 and 24 again?

Please. LeBron is here attempting 18 FGA from 2011-2014...

Defense? LeBron 2011-2013 every bit as good. Cooled off this season, deserved DPOY last 2. Marc Gasol? GTFOH

Factor in the fact LBJ is not allowed to handcheck and then that's that. Like Pippen on crack.

[DonDadda59]

I think were past the All NBA Teams thing :lol This is Jordan/LeBron, of course they got 'em.

Now, 88-91 is 4 Years, but okay.

Just like we're making believe 2011 never happened? :oldlol:


Basically the only Edge MJ holds is Scoring. Let Samurai explain that "green lights to chuck" thing. At least for 1988-1990. 24 FGA, 22 and 24 again?

Please. LeBron is here attempting 18 FGA from 2011-2014...

That's the 'sacrifice' you make for teaming up with a finals MVP/best player in the league candidate and 20/10 all star franchise player. Then throw in the best shooter ever and other offensive pieces, and it's not hard to see why MJ had a bigger scoring burden when teamed up with a still developing migraine-suffering Pippen. And it's not like it was Bean-level chucking either. Jordan put up 33 PPG on 54% shooting those years as opposed to 27 on 56% for Bron.

Then you look at the playoffs and Jordan put up 35 PPG on 52% to Lebron's 27 PPG on 49%. Again, as with Kobe- you see the difference between also rans and the GOAT when it matters most (again, hate to harp on 2011 :oldlol: )


Defense? LeBron 2011-2013 every bit as good. Cooled off this season, deserved DPOY last 2. Marc Gasol? GTFOH

Duncan deserved DPOY last year. And Lebron has been openly campaigning and whining about DPOY even though he's been shit this year on that end. And he most certainly not 'every bit as good' as Jordan on defense.

In his DPOY season (also MVP and scoring title season), Jordan averaged 3.2 SPG (led the league) and 1.6 BPG (still stands as the most total by a guard, ever) and became the first player ever to record 200 steals and 100 blocks in a season (matched by Hakeem and teammate Pippen). This was in addition to playing lock down man D while carrying the offensive load.

Meanwhile Bron gets by on his rep for being able to guard several positions. This year alone I've seen him be ripped apart by Durant on several occassions, Blake Griffin outright dominated him, and even Swaggy P let him have it :lol

So I have no clue where you're getting the idea from that Bron as been 'every bit as good'. Absolutely not.


Factor in the fact LBJ is not allowed to handcheck and then that's that. Like Pippen on crack.

Yeah, I have factored that in. That's why he can get to the rim whenever he feels like it. Goes both ways.

[f0und]

jordan and its not even close.

because he was a smarter, efficient player, he was able to consistently put up big efficient numbers from night to night. you knew what you were gonna get from jordan almost every night. and it allowed him to turn his game up at will.

with kobe you couldnt predict what was gonna happen. people look at his total season average but forget that he didnt score 37 ppg on 45% shooting every night. because of his low efficiency chucking ways, his efficiency WILDLY fluctuated from night to night. he could score 40 points on 55% shooting one night. then the next night, score 35 points on 35 shots. unlike jordan, his high volume scoring was completely unpredictable.

[SamuraiSWISH]

jordan and its not even close.

because he was a smarter, efficient player, he was able to consistently put up big efficient numbers from night to night. you knew what you were gonna get from jordan almost every night. and it allowed him to turn his game up at will.

with kobe you couldnt predict what was gonna happen. people look at his total season average but forget that he didnt score 37 ppg on 45% shooting every night. because of his low efficiency chucking ways, his efficiency WILDLY fluctuated from night to night. he could score 40 points on 55% shooting one night. then the next night, score 35 points on 35 shots. unlike jordan, his high volume scoring was completely unpredictable.
:applause:

[ArbitraryWater]

Just like we're making believe 2011 never happened? :oldlol:



That's the 'sacrifice' you make for teaming up with a finals MVP/best player in the league candidate and 20/10 all star franchise player. Then throw in the best shooter ever and other offensive pieces, and it's not hard to see why MJ had a bigger scoring burden when teamed up with a still developing migraine-suffering Pippen. And it's not like it was Bean-level chucking either. Jordan put up 33 PPG on 54% shooting those years as opposed to 27 on 56% for Bron.

Then you look at the playoffs and Jordan put up 35 PPG on 52% to Lebron's 27 PPG on 49%. Again, as with Kobe- you see the difference between also rans and the GOAT when it matters most (again, hate to harp on 2011 :oldlol: )



Duncan deserved DPOY last year. And Lebron has been openly campaigning and whining about DPOY even though he's been shit this year on that end. And he most certainly not 'every bit as good' as Jordan on defense.

In his DPOY season (also MVP and scoring title season), Jordan averaged 3.2 SPG (led the league) and 1.6 BPG (still stands as the most total by a guard, ever) and became the first player ever to record 200 steals and 100 blocks in a season (matched by Hakeem and teammate Pippen). This was in addition to playing lock down man D while carrying the offensive load.

Meanwhile Bron gets by on his rep for being able to guard several positions. This year alone I've seen him be ripped apart by Durant on several occassions, Blake Griffin outright dominated him, and even Swaggy P let him have it :lol

So I have no clue where you're getting the idea from that Bron as been 'every bit as good'. Absolutely not.



Yeah, I have factored that in. That's why he can get to the rim whenever he feels like it. Goes both ways.


But I didn't talk about this Year when I mentioned DPOY :confusedshrug:

Why 2011? I go by 3 Year Spans, sorry. I'm not here including 1987, where MJ played meh in the playoffs&horrible in the 4th... why 2011? Thats not what makes LeBron's legacy. What happened 2012-onwards is.

lol @ bolded

Biggest difference: LBJ 2 Titles - MJ 1 Title.
2012 equals 1991 Dominance wise.
No counterpart for 2013 (In fairness, you do have Pip wetting the bed.)

[Dragonyeuw]

The mythology that he was justified in his delusions. As if he was so above and beyond everyone that nothing could motivate him. As if Kareem wasn't shitting all over his career and still is to this day. What he accomplished after the fact is completely irrelevant to his mental weakness at that moment.

1. Nothing in my post spoke to whether or not he was justified. I wasnt making a case for or against his decision.

2. Why would making a decision to 'retire' from the game on top, citing a lack of challenge, speak to mental weakness? Define mental weakness in this instance.

[chazzy]

Yes. God yes. 2012-2014 LeBron > 1989-1991 Jordan.
Uh no. You realize 90 and 91 Jordan is probably his peak, right?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Uh no. You realize 90 and 91 Jordan is probably his peak, right?
'90 - '92

[MichaelCorleone]

MJ @ His Peak....

/thread

[Lamar Odumbb]

Jordan because his post game was money. Kobe could score from anywhere but his post game was slightly above average at best. Chauncey Billups and Sam Casell were small but they could post up and score with ease.

[ArbitraryWater]

Uh no. You realize 90 and 91 Jordan is probably his peak, right?

Yea. Underestimated that. 2013 LeBron kills this comparison. 2014 LBJ needs to be godly in the playoffs again.. like '12 bron

[diamenz]

actually i'd say 93 was his peak. though he wasn't as athletic as he was a couple of years before, the mental game was there 100% for him and he worked the triangle and post like no other.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Yea. Underestimated that. 2013 LeBron kills this comparison. 2014 LBJ needs to be godly in the playoffs again.. like '12 bron
You think 2012 - Current LeBron > '91 - '93 Jordan?

[ArbitraryWater]

You think 2012 - Current LeBron > '91 - '93 Jordan?

No. Like I said, 2013 Playoff LeBron probably killed that. 2014 Playoffs need to be godly again.

[SamuraiSWISH]

No. Like I said, 2013 Playoff LeBron probably killed that. 2014 Playoffs need to be godly again.
He's had some very memorable individual games. But he has yet to have entire playoff series, or Finals series where he produces substantially more than his regular averages. His 2013 playoffs were disappointing, given such a great regular season. I'd love to see him have a godly playoffs. And finally an NBA Finals series on West / Bird / Magic / Jordan / Shaq / Wade's level.

[The-Legend-24]

MJ could only dream of scoring 81 points. :oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

1. Nothing in my post spoke to whether or not he was justified. I wasnt making a case for or against his decision.

2. Why would making a decision to 'retire' from the game on top, citing a lack of challenge, speak to mental weakness? Define mental weakness in this instance.

Its mentally weak to not be able to find the motivation to play a game after winning a mere 3 championships. As is it was just so easy. As if it had not already been done before to greater degrees and for longer periods of time in NBA history. Its delusional.

[moe94]

MJ could only dream of scoring 81 points. :oldlol:

63 on the Celtics in the playoffs > 81 on the Raptors in the regular season

[SamuraiSWISH]

63 on the Celtics in the playoffs > 81 on the Raptors in the regular season
55 in NBA Finals > 40 in NBA Finals
54 on Riley's Knicks in ECF > 50 on D'Antoni's Suns in 1st round
37 ppg > 35 ppg
10 scoring titles > 2 scoring titles
30 ppg career > 25 ppg career

[moe94]

You mean Jordan averaged more points on better efficiency and there is still somehow an argument?

[SamuraiSWISH]

You mean Jordan averaged more points on better efficiency and there is still somehow an argument?
Ask delusional Kobe apostle YMF who hangs his hat on Defensive Rating, fake Jordan is clearly better.

[f0und]

MJ relies on skill and smarts. thats what allowed him to shoot himself out of a slump. be more consistent from game to game. more likey to go off on a big night. turn his game up at will at almost any given time. thats why he's the best playoff and finals performer.

kobe relies on skill and chance. when he's in a slump, he doesnt change his game. he keeps shooting the same shots with hope that he'll get hot. thats why he's inconsistent from game to game. more likely to have a sub 40% shooting night. why he cant turn his game up at will. if he was able to, we wouldve seen plenty of legendary playoff and finals moments.

[AlphaWolf24]

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]You Bean stans must feel all kinds of stupid after making those ridiculous excuses for why he couldn't get his efficiency up in a softer era. He was too stupid to figure out how to play against the 'zone' aka defense that AAU kids know how to beat. The players in the 6 years between '98 and '04 evolved to be monstrous, hyper athletic, super strong giant freaks.

Must feel like real fools watching a guy who couldn't put up a single rep of 185 lbs on the bench press working on his 4th scoring title. Or watching a guy with a questionable jumper shoot damn near 60% while coasting. :lol

Simple truth is, all of those excuses have been exposed for the jokes they were. Kobe was just never good enough to accomplish that feat (shooting at least 50%) in damn near 2 decades of basketball.



The f*ck are you talking about? Even their mutual coach has gone on record several times about this being the case- MJ was much better at getting his within the flow of the game/system and Kobe would often times derail the team with his mindless chucking. In fact, in '99 Phil brought in a then retired Jordan to talk to Bean about his low IQ ways, and guess how this marmaluke responded:

[INDENT]

[Noob Saibot]

Is this a trick question? Its the guy with 10 regular season scoring titles.

[AlphaWolf24]

MJ relies on skill and smarts. thats what allowed him to shoot himself out of a slump. be more consistent from game to game. more likey to go off on a big night. turn his game up at will at almost any given time. thats why he's the best playoff and finals performer.

kobe relies on skill and chance. when he's in a slump, he doesnt change his game. he keeps shooting the same shots with hope that he'll get hot. thats why he's inconsistent from game to game. more likely to have a sub 40% shooting night. why he cant turn his game up at will. if he was able to, we wouldve seen plenty of legendary playoff and finals moments.


00' Game 7 wasn't legendary?....Kobe fueled the comeback?

Game 4 vs Indiana on a busted ankle wasn't legendary?

01' the whole series vs Tim Duncan's Spurs wasn't legendary?

Game 3 one on one vs AI wasn't legendary?

If MJ scoring 60 and getting swept by Boston is legendary then so is hitting game tying and game winning jumpers in the same game vs PHX in 06'

08' vs Melo wasn't legendary?

09' Finals Game 1?

10' Finals 21 straight points?



I know you guys are trollin...but damn.

still can't C me.

[Dragonyeuw]

Its mentally weak to not be able to find the motivation to play a game after winning a mere 3 championships.

Meh, don't see that as being a sign of weakness but whatever, its not worth belaboring. Jordan was measuring himself against guys like magic and bird, and not only was a threepeat not a 'mere' achievement as only 3 teams have ever done it in NBA history, it was something that neither magic/bird did, and clearly that was more important at the time he left in 93 than trying to match magic in ring count, or win 8 titles in a row ala Russell, or average 50 in a season ala Wilt( or whatever arbitrary goal you think he should have taken on),the latter milestones I figure you're smart enough to understand are pretty much era specific accomplishments and unattainable in the modern game.

[Micku]

Lebron James - once
Chris Paul - once
Tony Parker - once
Monta Ellis - once
Shawn Marion - once


He probably doesn't count. He played a lot of PF and Center a lot that season as well as SF. He played PF the most. According to basketball reference, he played SF-32%, PF-33% and C 32%. *double checks* Oh wait. My bad. He played a lot of SF the next season. That's probably what you meant. My bad.

In terms of the 50% thing, I think there's a difference in averaging 50% your whole career than in a stretch of games. Plus, FG% determines how many shots you made while the defense is on you. TS% shows how effective you are as a scorer in general, but not necessary while the defense is active. And MJ had four seasons over 60% TS.

Guys back then didn't use the 3 ball as much so the FG% is inflated in a certain aspect. Guys now use the 3 ball much more. But the eFG% is the same as it was back then.

Kobe FG% would increase if he didn't take ill shots or stupid 3s. The reason why Kobe's FG% and TS% isn't better is more of himself and his bad shot selection than it is the defense usually. Jordan wasn't like that as much, so he was the better scorer since he was more efficient. But I do think Kobe's hot streak is better than Jordan.

[DonDadda59]

This fool with FG%..

Talk about reaching... why do you include 85-98 for Jordan's era, but for some reason you stop at '10 like the league ended there? :biggums:

Could it be that post '10, guys like Bron, Durant, Wade, Paul, Nash, Parker, Dragic, Belinelli, Stephenson, Marion, Lawson, Udrih have all done/are doing what Kobe couldn't in 2 decades, some of them multiple times? Hell the man who completely eclipsed and marginalized Bean... his FG% has been steadily rising every year. With a questionable jumpshot, he's shot close to 60%.

Why were these players (some of them short, unathletic) able to crack the 'zone' code and overcome the same hyper athletes and goliaths Bean faced?

Chalk up another L, kid. :cheers:

[Micku]

MJ relies on skill and smarts. thats what allowed him to shoot himself out of a slump. be more consistent from game to game. more likey to go off on a big night. turn his game up at will at almost any given time. thats why he's the best playoff and finals performer.

kobe relies on skill and chance. when he's in a slump, he doesnt change his game. he keeps shooting the same shots with hope that he'll get hot. thats why he's inconsistent from game to game. more likely to have a sub 40% shooting night. why he cant turn his game up at will. if he was able to, we wouldve seen plenty of legendary playoff and finals moments.

This is what annoys me about Kobe actually. His problem is more of his mental game than anything else. He is stubborn. I guess it could be said it's a double edge sword because he can kill you, but sometimes his willingness to you kill by himself will limit the team's and his potential.

I'm pretty sure a lot of Kobe watchers know that sometimes when he double team, he dribbles to a corner when he is double and try to shoot a fadeaway jumper over them instead of passing the ball, right? Jordan didn't do that as often. Not because he couldn't, but it's a bad shot.

Another thing is annoys me a little bit about Kobe is that Kobe when does get a little space, he tends to dribble a bit before taking a shot. He wasn't the catch and shoot player that Jordan was. This made the offense kind'a dies when the team let Kobe does his thing. This cause him to be inconsistent. One night he looks great, the other night he is trying to force the issue.

All of these little things is what limits Kobe and he could've been better than what he was. Better scorer too. Which is amazing considering his lack of physical attributes compared to Jordan.

[miller-time]

The gap isn't as wide as some are making it seem. Kobe's got a definite argument here.

It is not that the gap is wide, it is that it is clear cut.

[Knoe Itawl]

Its mentally weak to not be able to find the motivation to play a game after winning a mere 3 championships. As is it was just so easy. As if it had not already been done before to greater degrees and for longer periods of time in NBA history. Its delusional.

This guy is such a clown. The point of dedicating ones' life to arguing nonsense because you're so much on some guy's di(ck is lost to me.

Only a true idiot would say Michael Jordan, winner of 6 titles, widely considered the GOAT, most clutch player ever and I could go on and on is "mentally weak". To claim such isn't worthy of a response but wanted to just point out how much of worthless poster YMF is.

[AlphaWolf24]

Talk about reaching... why do you include 85-98 for Jordan's era, but for some reason you stop at '10 like the league ended there? :biggums:

Could it be that post '10, guys like Bron, Durant, Wade, Paul, Nash, Parker, Dragic, Belinelli, Stephenson, Marion, Lawson, Udrih have all done/are doing what Kobe couldn't in 2 decades, some of them multiple times? Hell the man who completely eclipsed and marginalized Bean... his FG% has been steadily rising every year. With a questionable jumpshot, he's shot close to 60%.

Why were these players (some of them short, unathletic) able to crack the 'zone' code and overcome the same hyper athletes and goliaths Bean faced?

Chalk up another L, kid. :cheers:


Because the last 3 years we have seen a resurgence in a high Drtg. This coincides with the gaudy numbers many stars in this time frame put up. whether it be Parker, Marion K Love and or Lebron the last few years, etc.

- and yet the thread is another KB vs MJ ...and I was simply using their defined era's...MJ shot 50% 5 times his first 6 seasons....he did it once his final 9

- clearly anyone who watched the 80's style vs mid 90's style defense...it was a very different game....and thus it evolved even futher into the 00's

- and if you want to further cling on FG%....and if you actually watched basketball the past 30 years....It was clearly harder to score in this era vs MJ's. From 00'-04, the leagues defense was insanely tough to score on. 2005-07 were tougher than any of MJ's years pre-1998.



In MJ's era, the league-wide Drtg was almsot always weak. In fact, from 85' to 96', the Drtg was always 107.2 or higher. In 1997 it dips to 106.7 & 105.0 in 98'(MJ's worst year as a Bull by far)

1985 - 107.9
1986 - 107.2
1987 - 108.3
1988 - 108.0
1989 - 107.8
1990 - 108.1
1991 - 107.9
1992 - 108.2
1993 - 108.0

1996 - 107.6
1997 - 106.7

MJ spent his prime years in a league that was "stastically" weak defensively. Players simply scored more per posseion by a significant margin in his time.


Fast-forward to the post-Lockout / Kobe era,

2000 - 104.1
2001 - 103.0
2002 - 104.5
2003 - 103.6
2004 - 102.9
2005 - 106.1
2006 - 106.2
2007 - 106.5
2008 - 107.5
2009 - 108.3
2010 - 107.6


why are you clinging to .4 difference in Fg%? seriously it's sad and tired and has been debunked over and over.


thumps chest....Next...... ( merkin Stans since 93 till infinity)





2EZ

__________________________________________________ _____

Edit: Not sure why all Kobe and MJ threads turns to fg%???

No one is saying Kobe was a better player or shot a higher FG%.

But my point is ...the league had changed defensively....The league is also played at a much different pace then it was in the 80's and early 90's.

again, No one is saying Kobe was a better player.....all I'm saying is marginal FG% 45 - 49 in a totally different era.

No doubt in the 80's KB probably would posted up more and took less 3's....MJ if he started out now would be taking a lot more 3's....he probably would average more points IMO also. ( wow that would be fun to watch.)



Kobe and MJ arguably 2 of the greatest skill scorers ever....Like I said, MJ was a better player around the rim......Kobe IMO was a better outside shooter and creator from the perimeter.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Meh, don't see that as being a sign of weakness but whatever, its not worth belaboring. Jordan was measuring himself against guys like magic and bird, and not only was a threepeat not a 'mere' achievement as only 3 teams have ever done it in NBA history, it was something that neither magic/bird did, and clearly that was more important at the time he left in 93 than trying to match magic in ring count, or win 8 titles in a row ala Russell, or average 50 in a season ala Wilt( or whatever arbitrary goal you think he should have taken on),the latter milestones I figure you're smart enough to understand are pretty much era specific accomplishments and unattainable in the modern game.

Seems completely arbitrary. He would have fit right in on ISH. 3 titles is worth than 5 because they were all in a row. Checkmate. No one can touch me. I am so great. What else could I possibly to prove myself in this game? :facepalm

[Yao Ming's Foot]

This guy is such a clown. The point of dedicating ones' life to arguing nonsense because you're so much on some guy's di(ck is lost to me.

Only a true idiot would say Michael Jordan, winner of 6 titles, widely considered the GOAT, most clutch player ever and I could go on and on is "mentally weak". To claim such isn't worthy of a response but wanted to just point out how much of worthless poster YMF is.


Thanks for the shoutout. :roll:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kobe FG% would increase if he didn't take ill shots or stupid 3s. The reason why Kobe's FG% and TS% isn't better is more of himself and his bad shot selection than it is the defense usually. Jordan wasn't like that as much, so he was the better scorer since he was more efficient. But I do think Kobe's hot streak is better than Jordan.


This is what annoys me about Kobe actually. His problem is more of his mental game than anything else. He is stubborn. I guess it could be said it's a double edge sword because he can kill you, but sometimes his willingness to you kill by himself will limit the team's and his potential.

I'm pretty sure a lot of Kobe watchers know that sometimes when he double team, he dribbles to a corner when he is double and try to shoot a fadeaway jumper over them instead of passing the ball, right? Jordan didn't do that as often. Not because he couldn't, but it's a bad shot.

Another thing is annoys me a little bit about Kobe is that Kobe when does get a little space, he tends to dribble a bit before taking a shot. He wasn't the catch and shoot player that Jordan was. This made the offense kind'a dies when the team let Kobe does his thing. This cause him to be inconsistent. One night he looks great, the other night he is trying to force the issue.

All of these little things is what limits Kobe and he could've been better than what he was. Better scorer too. Which is amazing considering his lack of physical attributes compared to Jordan.


Meh, don't see that as being a sign of weakness but whatever, its not worth belaboring. Jordan was measuring himself against guys like magic and bird, and not only was a threepeat not a 'mere' achievement as only 3 teams have ever done it in NBA history, it was something that neither magic/bird did, and clearly that was more important at the time he left in 93 than trying to match magic in ring count, or win 8 titles in a row ala Russell, or average 50 in a season ala Wilt( or whatever arbitrary goal you think he should have taken on),the latter milestones I figure you're smart enough to understand are pretty much era specific accomplishments and unattainable in the modern game.
:applause:

[DonDadda59]

Because the last 3 years we have seen a resurgence in a high Drtg.

So basically... Jordan's was a weak defensive era with midgets and no zone, then Kobe's era was non stop unbeatable zone and monster athletes... now we're back to midgets and no zone?

Isn't that just a tad convenient? :oldlol:

Truth is- no matter what era Bean played in, whether it was the 90s Jordan era (were he shot 44%), the Shaq era 2000s (where he shot 45%), the no touching era where all his scoring outbursts came (where he shot 46%), or the Lebron era (where he shot 45%). Kobe Bean Bryant at his absolute best, his peak... was a 47% shooter.

You can make all the excuses you want about him being too stupid to be able to figure out the 'zone' where other players have. Post all the DRTG nonsense your heart desires. Doesn't matter what defense Bean is facing, he never had the ability to reach that level of efficiency.

[AlphaWolf24]

So basically... Jordan's was a weak defensive era with midgets and no zone, then Kobe's era was non stop unbeatable zone and monster athletes... now we're back to midgets and no zone?

Isn't that just a tad convenient? :oldlol:

Truth is- no matter what era Bean played in, whether it was the 90s Jordan era (were he shot 44%), the Shaq era 2000s (where he shot 45%), the no touching era where all his scoring outbursts came (where he shot 46%), or the Lebron era (where he shot 45%). Kobe Bean Bryant at his absolute best, his peak... was a 47% shooter.

You can make all the excuses you want about him being too stupid to be able to figure out the 'zone' where other players have. Post all the DRTG nonsense your heart desires. Doesn't matter what defense Bean is facing, he never had the ability to reach that level of efficiency.


Like I stated in my Edit: No one is saying Kobe is a better player then MJ....or shoots better.

what I'm trying to say is.....If you are going to use math and marginal FG% differences to prove something....why not also use league wide numbers/math and also understand the game had evolved.

here are the league averages for all the years MJ shot over 50%.

88' - 48%
89' - 47.7%
90' - 47.6%
91' - 47.4%
92' - 47.2%

And here are the league averages in the Kobe era.

00' - 44.9%
01' - 44.3%
02' - 44.5%
03' - 44.2%
04' - 43.9%
05' - 44.7%
06' - 45.4%
07' - 45.8%
08' - 45.7%
09' - 45.9%
10' - 46.1%

and besides...many Guards shot over 50% in MJ era...it's not like MJ was the only one....Like I said.....different era's with different pace and defensive strategies.




one last thing son...


Kobe Bryant career

2PT%------------------------>48.3%
3PT%(eFG)------------------>33.9%
FT%-------------------------->83.7%
TS%(2PT%+ 3PT%+ FT%)-->55.7%

Michael Jordan career

2PT%------------------------>51.0%
3PT%(eFG)------------------>32.7%
FT%-------------------------->83.5%
TS%(2PT%+ 3PT%+ FT%)-->56.9%

Overall, in points per possesion kobe is behind michael by only 1.2% because he is marginally a better FT shooter, and he takes and makes a lot more threes(the main reason he's so behind in FG%). But overall, with all factors considered he's literally behind jordan by only 1.2% in overall efficiency. It's amazing how people downplay kobe's FG% without taking into account he took 3X the amount of threes, was more efficient from beyond the arc, and was marginally a better FT shooter..


Like I said......any more questions?....





if not...next.

(opens pocket)

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Like I stated in my Edit: No one is saying Kobe is a better player then MJ....or shoots better.

what I'm trying to say is.....If you are going to use math and marginal FG% differences to prove something....why not also use league wide numbers/math and also understand the game had evolved.

here are the league averages for all the years MJ shot over 50%.

88' - 48%
89' - 47.7%
90' - 47.6%
91' - 47.4%
92' - 47.2%

And here are the league averages in the Kobe era.

00' - 44.9%
01' - 44.3%
02' - 44.5%
03' - 44.2%
04' - 43.9%
05' - 44.7%
06' - 45.4%
07' - 45.8%
08' - 45.7%
09' - 45.9%
10' - 46.1%

and besides...many Guards shot over 50% in MJ era...it's not like MJ was the only one....Like I said.....different era's with different pace and defensive strategies.




one last thing son...


Kobe Bryant career

2PT%------------------------>48.3%
3PT%(eFG)------------------>33.9%
FT%-------------------------->83.7%
TS%(2PT%+ 3PT%+ FT%)-->55.7%

Michael Jordan career

2PT%------------------------>51.0%
3PT%(eFG)------------------>32.7%
FT%-------------------------->83.5%
TS%(2PT%+ 3PT%+ FT%)-->56.9%

Overall, in points per possesion kobe is behind michael by only 1.2% because he is marginally a better FT shooter, and he takes and makes a lot more threes(the main reason he's so behind in FG%). But overall, with all factors considered he's literally behind jordan by only 1.2% in overall efficiency. It's amazing how people downplay kobe's FG% without taking into account he took 3X the amount of threes, was more efficient from beyond the arc, and was marginally a better FT shooter..


Like I said......any more questions?....





if not...next.

(opens pocket)

So basically you are saying Kobe is the greatest of all time and Jordan is the worst player of all time.

-DonDadda59

[DonDadda59]

Like I said......any more questions?....


A few actually.

1) What does it matter what the league wide average is/was when discussing individual players? I mean what was the league wide average for guys scoring 35+ as MJ did several times and Kobe did once? Seems kind of pointless, especially when you consider that even though generally the league in the 80s-early 90s played uptempo basketball that led to higher FG%, the Bulls were always a slow paced/half court offense even back then.

2) Again... why does any extraneous stat or detail matter when, regardless of decade, era, rules, teammates, etc... Kobe in 17+ years was not ONCE able to cross the 47% barrier? What does league average or DRTG have to do with that?

3) Why do you Bean stans like to harp on TS like it means anything other than we're considering FT shooting? :oldlol: What does foul shooting % have to do with the quality of defense/defenders faced? I love how you guys trumpet that useless advanced stat, but let someone bring up Player Efficiency Rating, then we'd have a full scale riot on our hands :lol


So basically you are saying Kobe is the greatest of all time and Jordan is the worst player of all time.

-DonDadda59

'63-'64 Celtics = GOAT w/ their 83.8 DRTG.

Go have a seat.

[AlphaWolf24]

So basically you are saying Kobe is the greatest of all time and Jordan is the worst player of all time.

-DonDadda59


yes...and that 1.2% difference in Shooting % ( in different eras) means that they should never ever ever ever be compared....Kobe can't shoot " efficient" whatever that means...

[Dragonyeuw]

Seems completely arbitrary. He would have fit right in on ISH. 3 titles is worth than 5 because they were all in a row. Checkmate. No one can touch me. I am so great. What else could I possibly to prove myself in this game? :facepalm

As arbitrary as the list you came up with, no doubt. I'm sure MJ would read your post and deem himself an outright failure for failing to live up to your standards of mental toughness.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

No more or less arbitrary than the list of achievements you came up with determine whether MJ was mentally tough or not.

It's not an achievement to not be deluded and to be motivated to play a game. Every other player manages to do it. No other player deluded themselves into unmatched legendary status prior to walking the walk.

[SamuraiSWISH]

A few actually.

1) What does it matter what the league wide average is/was when discussing individual players? I mean what was the league wide average for guys scoring 35+ as MJ did several times and Kobe did once? Seems kind of pointless, especially when you consider that even though generally the league in the 80s-early 90s played uptempo basketball that led to higher FG%, the Bulls were always a slow paced/half court offense even back then.

2) Again... why does any extraneous stat or detail matter when, regardless of decade, era, rules, teammates, etc... Kobe in 17+ years was not ONCE able to cross the 47% barrier? What does league average or DRTG have to do with that?

3) Why do you Bean stans like to harp on TS like it means anything other than we're considering FT shooting? :oldlol: What does foul shooting % have to do with the quality of defense/defenders faced? I love how you guys trumpet that useless advanced stat, but let someone bring up Player Efficiency Rating, then we'd have a full scale riot on our hands :lol



'63-'64 Celtics = GOAT w/ their 83.8 DRTG.

Go have a seat.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

:applause:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

A few actually.

'63-'64 Celtics = GOAT w/ their 83.8 DRTG.

Go have a seat.

What the hell do you think this proves? Your stupidity is overwhelming.

:roll:

[DonDadda59]

What the hell do you think this proves? Your stupidity is overwhelming.

:roll:

Stupid like a fox. :pimp:

You show me one team from the 'Bean era' that has a DRTG as low as the GOAT defense... the '63-'64 Boston Celtics, and I'll sacrifice a goat in your honor. After all, you're the superstar who made DRTG en vogue here... own up to it.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Don breaking down Bean stans' doors. Gotta love it :applause:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Stupid like a fox. :pimp:

You show me one team from the 'Bean era' that has a DRTG as low as the GOAT defense... the '63-'64 Boston Celtics, and I'll sacrifice a goat in your honor. After all, you're the superstar who made DRTG en vogue here... own up to it.

Thats why your king of the strawman arguments. You argue against exaggerated positions no one takes because otherwise you have no chance. We don't even need to be here for you to imagine our half of the conversation and give yourself a fighting chance.

DRating doesn't mean X team is best defense of all time it means given two identical offensive performances the one against the team with the lower defensive rating is more impressive as it dictates the context of those numbers.

[SamuraiSWISH]

DRating doesn't mean X team is best defense of all time it means given two identical offensive performances the one against the team with the lower defensive rating is more impressive as it dictates the context of those numbers.
Defensive Rating alone dictates the quality alone of the performance? Um, no it doesn't. There are a ton of variable that make up the defensive rating itself.

Jordan's 69 v.s. 107 DRating >>> Kobe's 81 v.s. 113 DRating.

DonDadda straight DESTROYING Kobe apostles in here.

[DonDadda59]

Thats why your king of the strawman arguments. You argue against exaggerated positions no one takes because otherwise you have no chance. We don't even need to be here for you to imagine our half of the conversation and give yourself a fighting chance.

DRating doesn't mean X team is best defense of all time it means given two identical offensive performances the one against the team with the lower defensive rating is more impressive as it dictates the context of those numbers.

So.... You're saying you can't find me a defense from the 'Bean era' that's better than the GOAT '63-'64 Boston Celtics and their Zeus powered 83.8 DRTG? Even though that's been the entire basis of your completely misguided argument on these boards?

Alright Then (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_IXzU-lnLU) :cheers:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Defensive Rating alone dictates the quality alone of the performance? Um, no it doesn't.

There are a ton of variable that make up the defensive rating itself.

DonDadda straight DESTROYING Kobe apostles in here.


http://www.presentermedia.com/files/clipart/00002000/2766/blind_leading_blind_pc_md_wm.jpg

:facepalm

[SamuraiSWISH]

Straight from the Kobe apostle's mouth

MJ's 69 v.s. 107 defensive rating is superior to Kobe's 81 v.s. 113 defensive rating.

Never thought I'd see the day. They cling to that one game so vigorously.

[Dragonyeuw]

It's not an achievement to not be deluded and to be motivated to play a game. Every other player manages to do it. No other player deluded themselves into unmatched legendary status prior to walking the walk.

Every other player isn't Jordan, who would be motivated to play year in year out to accomplish 1/10th of what MJ did by 30. By 93 he pretty much accomplished more than most players ever did, including other all time greats. How many players after 9 years had 3 rings, 7 scoring titles,3 finals mvps, 3 mvps, a defensive player of the year, and an olympic gold medal? Taking into account his father's death, as far as he was concerned he was satisfied with he had done and decided to walk away. If you deem that weakness, thats your opinion and no more of my time will be spent arguing with you otherwise on that point.

The reality is none of us here know what was going on in jordan's head in 1993, we only know what was made public knowledge,so arguing about it amounts to pissing up a tree. Its usually rabid Kobe fans who feel the need to use something like this as a way to destroy jordan's legacy. Im a huge Jordan fan, but I dont feel the need to nitpick at Kobe's every move to belittle his status just to prop up MJ. There's room for objective minds to respect and appreciate both men's contributions to the game without every thread devolving into a pissing contest.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Straight from the Kobe apostle's mouth

MJ's 69 v.s. 107 defensive rating is superior to Kobe's 81 v.s. 113 defensive rating.

Never thought I'd see the day. They cling to that one game so vigorously.

Do you know what the word identical means?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Every other player isn't Jordan, who would be motivated to play year in year out to accomplish 1/10th of what MJ did by 30. By 93 he pretty much accomplished more than most players ever did, including other all time greats. How many players after 9 years had 3 rings, 7 scoring titles,3 finals mvps, 3 mvps, a defensive player of the year, and an olympic gold medal?
He had 2x Olympics gold medals by then. As a 20 year old MJ led collegiate Americans to the gold medal v.s. grown men in the Olympics. He wasn't air balling critical jumpers in gold medal games.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Its usually rabid Kobe fans who feel the need to use something like this as a way to destroy jordan's legacy. Im a huge Jordan fan, but I dont feel the need to nitpick at Kobe's every move to belittle his status just to prop up MJ. There's room for objective minds to respect and appreciate both men's contributions to the game without every thread devolving into a pissing contest.

Funny because this conversation only started because Jordan mythologists wanted to talk about Kobe "quitting" half of an unwinnable game or Lebron checking out his last quarter as a Cav. But hey don't let the facts get in the way with a good story. It never stopped you guys before.

[Dragonyeuw]

Funny because this conversation only started because Jordan mythologists wanted to talk about Kobe "quitting" half of an unwinnable game or Lebron checking out his last quarter as a Cav. But hey don't let the facts get in the way with a good story. It never stopped you guys before.

I wasnt part of that conversation, in fact I dont think I've ever made any argument that Kobe quit EVER as a member of this forum. Absolutely no part of my posts in this thread even hint at that, including the post you initially responded to. But please, dont let that stop you from trying to make a point about something that had nothing to do with anything I've said in this thread.

[Dragonyeuw]

He had 2x Olympics gold medals by then.

Good point, forgot about 84 gold medal.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I wasnt part of that conversation, in fact I dont think I've ever made any argument that Kobe quit EVER as a member of this forum. Absolutely no part of my posts in this thread even hint at that, including the post you initially responded to. But please, dont let that stop you from trying to make a point about something that had nothing to do with anything I've said in this thread.

It's a message board buddy, not a telephone call. We were talking before you even showed up. I accept your apology for misrepresenting its origins though.

[AlphaWolf24]

A few actually.

1) What does it matter what the league wide average is/was when discussing individual players? I mean what was the league wide average for guys scoring 35+ as MJ did several times and Kobe did once? Seems kind of pointless, especially when you consider that even though generally the league in the 80s-early 90s played uptempo basketball that led to higher FG%, the Bulls were always a slow paced/half court offense even back then.

Because you are comparing individual's by using Math ( somewhat marginal mathematical differences) in different era's. where defensively the game has obviously changed. I was stating Jordan's FG% also dropped as the league changed...like I aid..He shot 50% once his final 9 seasons.

Jordan was taking 26- 28 FGA per game....The Bull's were not always a slow paced half court team..as they did not have a legit back to the basket scorer...it was iso and or Pick n Roll MJ to death.

2) Again... why does any extraneous stat or detail matter when, regardless of decade, era, rules, teammates, etc... Kobe in 17+ years was not ONCE able to cross the 47% barrier? What does league average or DRTG have to do with that?

what does detail matter?....ok regardless of anything...Jordan FG% in the 80's was over 50%...his fg% steadily declined as did LEAGUEWIDE FG% why?

1985 - 51%
1986 - 45% ( hurt)
1987 - 48%
1988 - 53%
1989- 53%
1990 - 52%
1991 - 53%
1992 - 51%
1993 - 49%
1995 - 41%
1996 - 49%
1997 - 48%
1998 - 46%
2002 - MJ shot 41.6% FG, 46.8% TS
2003 - MJ shot 44.5% FG, 49.1% TS

I always believed that 1992 MJ was the best version....he had no weakness's...but even at his best....you could tell the game had changed a lot from 1988...and his FG% shows

If you want to use Math without details....then one could also say..

" after 1992 MJ never shot 50% ....as Basketball defensive strategies changed...MJ's FG% also dropped....bottoming out in the 00's in a much tougher defensive era"

3) Why do you Bean stans like to harp on TS like it means anything other than we're considering FT shooting? :oldlol: What does foul shooting % have to do with the quality of defense/defenders faced? I love how you guys trumpet that useless advanced stat, but let someone bring up Player Efficiency Rating, then we'd have a full scale riot on our hands :lol


Yes it's much better to use FG%..especially FG% in an era where
the 1988 Bulls shot 23% from the 3 point line, second-to-last in the league....or the Denver Nuggets averaged 125 Points per game while hardly shooting any 3's.

Try being a team like that today....their offense would grind to a halt as teams pack the paint and force them to shoot 5-10x more threes than they're accustomed to shooting (the 80's Bulls shot 300 threes and current teams avg around 1500-2000).

try being a perimeter player without range in todays era....


yes who cares about details and the difference of decades/evolution of the game?...Adrian Dantley would still score 30ppg and shoot 60%....OMG MJ shot 4% higher...derp..derp....


'63-'64 Celtics = GOAT w/ their 83.8 DRTG.

Go have a seat.

recognize game when it's in yer face son....


2EZ...next

[Dragonyeuw]

It's a message board buddy, not a telephone call. We were talking before you even showed up. .

If none of my commentary speaks to anything about Kobe 'quitting' or whatever, then why are you bringing it up to me? Address the ' kobe quit' angle with those who said it. Address my points on the merits of what I've said, not on what others have said. Seems pretty straightforward.....

[AlphaWolf24]

He had 2x Olympics gold medals by then. As a 20 year old MJ led collegiate Americans to the gold medal v.s. grown men in the Olympics. He wasn't air balling critical jumpers in gold medal games.


speaking of Prime MJ in the Olympics..



14.9 PPG, 45.1 FG%, 21.1 3P%, 68.4 FT%, 4.8 AST, 2.4 Reb.

Very Kobesque....(minus the horrid 3pt and FT %)

[Yao Ming's Foot]

If none of my commentary speaks to anything about Kobe 'quitting' or whatever, then why are you bringing it up to me? Address the ' kobe quit' angle with those who said it. Address my points on the merits of what I've said, not on what others have said. Seems pretty straightforward.....

Because you claim it was rabid Kobe fans picking on poor Jordan and I'm addressing you making that comment. That's not how it played out. You are wrong. :confusedshrug:

[Young X]

Why is this thread still doing numbers? There's no argument for Kobe, Jordan's effectiveness in putting the ball through the basket especially when his team needed it the most is clearly better than Kobe's no matter how you slice it.

[Dragonyeuw]

Because you claim it was rabid Kobe fans picking on poor Jordan and I'm addressing you making that comment. That's not how it played out. You are wrong. :confusedshrug:

You addressed me well before the rabid fan comment, several pages back, regarding a post I had made about Jordan trying to come up with challenges to motivate him in 93. You responded with a list of achievements that you think jordan could have used as motivation, ultimately trying to make a point about his mental weakness and some BS about mythology. All I was doing was speaking to something that Jordan stated in one of his videos.

You've now come full circle with your argument by saying that the conversation( whatever conversation that you apparently had with others in this thread) started with Jordan fans admonishing Kobe for quitting, and you somehow felt it was a good idea to base some of your responses to me on a conversation that you 1) were having with others and 2) had no relevance to anything Ive said.

[DonDadda59]

recognize game when it's in yer face son....


2EZ...next

Goodness this is embarrassing :facepalm

Alright, I'll try to sift through this disjointed stream of conscious...


Jordan was taking 26- 28 FGA per game....The Bull's were not always a slow paced half court team..as they did not have a legit back to the basket scorer...it was iso and or Pick n Roll MJ to death.

Bulls Pace During Jordan Tenure (Compared to League Average)

'84-'85: 99.4 (21/23)/ League Average: 102.1
'85-'86: 99.7 (20/23)/ League Average: 102.1
'86-'87: 95.8 (23/23)/ League Average: 100.8
'87-'88: 95.5 (23/23)/ League Average: 99.6
'88-'89: 97.0 (23/25)/ League Average: 100.6
'89-'90: 96.7 (17/27)/ League Average: 98.3
'90-'91: 95.6 (19/27)/ League Average: 97.8
'91-'92: 94.4 (22/27)/ League Average: 96.6
'92-'93: 92.5 (27/27)/ League Average: 96.8
'95-'96: 91.1 (20/29)/ League Average: 91.8
'96-'97: 90.0 (18/29)/ League Average: 90.1
'97-'98: 89.0 (22/29)/ League Average: 90.3

So yes, the Bulls ALWAYS played at a lower pace than the rest of the league- regardless of whether it was during the Magic Johnson Lake Show 80s or the grind them out half court centered 90s. Jordan was not getting his buckets mainly from fastbreak, uptempo style play in any era/decade.

And excluding his rookie year and second season that he missed the vast majority of, Jordan's team played in the 89-97 range and won 10 scoring titles putting up 32 PPG on 51% FG during that span. 33 PPG on 49% during the playoffs.

Starting with Kobe becoming a starter in '98-'99 and ending with last season, the Lakers played at a pace from 91-96 range. Kobe won 2 scoring titles and put up 27 PPG on 46% FG during that span. 27 PPG on 45% in the playoffs.

So while you might be able to say that certain teams/players had higher scoring and percentages in the 80s when the league was generally more uptempo/fastbreak oriented... you can't say the same for Michael Jordan and the Bulls. They were ALWAYS a half court-oriented team. Jordan and Kobe played on teams that played generally the same range in pace (89-97), which makes sense considering they played for the same coaches and under the same system.


" after 1992 MJ never shot 50% ....as Basketball defensive strategies changed...MJ's FG% also dropped....bottoming out in the 00's in a much tougher defensive era"

And after NEVER, Kobe shot higher than 47% :lol


try being a perimeter player without range in todays era....

Tony Parker and Rajon Rondo do ok. Both guys have hit the 50% plateau more than once. Lebron's rise in FG% has coincided with him taking less 3s. There's a pattern there.

We done here? :confusedshrug:

[BIZARRO]

speaking of Prime MJ in the Olympics..



14.9 PPG, 45.1 FG%, 21.1 3P%, 68.4 FT%, 4.8 AST, 2.4 Reb.

Very Kobesque....(minus the horrid 3pt and FT %)


And minus the 4.6 steals per game. :pimp:

[AlphaWolf24]

Goodness this is embarrassing :facepalm

Alright, I'll try to sift through this disjointed stream of conscious...



Bulls Pace During Jordan Tenure (Compared to League Average)

'84-'85: 99.4 (21/23)/ League Average: 102.1
'85-'86: 99.7 (20/23)/ League Average: 102.1
'86-'87: 95.8 (23/23)/ League Average: 100.8
'87-'88: 95.5 (23/23)/ League Average: 99.6
'88-'89: 97.0 (23/25)/ League Average: 100.6
'89-'90: 96.7 (17/27)/ League Average: 98.3
'90-'91: 95.6 (19/27)/ League Average: 97.8
'91-'92: 94.4 (22/27)/ League Average: 96.6
'92-'93: 92.5 (27/27)/ League Average: 96.8
'95-'96: 91.1 (20/29)/ League Average: 91.8
'96-'97: 90.0 (18/29)/ League Average: 90.1
'97-'98: 89.0 (22/29)/ League Average: 90.3

So yes, the Bulls ALWAYS played at a lower pace than the rest of the league- regardless of whether it was during the Magic Johnson Lake Show 80s or the grind them out half court centered 90s. Jordan was not getting his buckets mainly from fastbreak, uptempo style play in any era/decade.

And excluding his rookie year and second season that he missed the vast majority of, Jordan's team played in the 89-97 range and won 10 scoring titles putting up 32 PPG on 51% FG during that span. 33 PPG on 49% during the playoffs.

Starting with Kobe becoming a starter in '98-'99 and ending with last season, the Lakers played at a pace from 91-96 range. Kobe won 2 scoring titles and put up 27 PPG on 46% FG during that span. 27 PPG on 45% in the playoffs.

So while you might be able to say that certain teams/players had higher scoring and percentages in the 80s when the league was generally more uptempo/fastbreak oriented... you can't say the same for Michael Jordan and the Bulls. They were ALWAYS a half court-oriented team. Jordan and Kobe played on teams that played generally the same range in pace (89-97), which makes sense considering they played for the same coaches and under the same system.-



And after NEVER, Kobe shot higher than 47% :lol



Tony Parker and Rajon Rondo do ok. Both guys have hit the 50% plateau more than once. Lebron's rise in FG% has coincided with him taking less 3s. There's a pattern there.

We done here? :confusedshrug:

wow......I thought you trying to bring up a fantasy stat like "pace" to show that MJ couldn't get good shots..

Now you are saying he didn't get transition shots too?.....really?......really?

- NO.... FG% is not dependent on pace, nor is DRtg. Again, players scored 20+ PPG in MJ's era a whopping 56 times. And it was only done 5 times in the moder era. Do you really think today's players couldn't equal guys like Byron Scott, or Walter Davis?

- 1) The 60's had a very high pace, yet a low FG%. There is no correlation to pace and FG%.

2) +2.1 Drtg is extremely significant when we're discussing FG% ranges from 45-50%. And the stats from both eras bear this out. The difference between 45% and 50% is 9-20 FG vs 10-20 FG.

3) players avergaed 20+ PPG for a season while shooting 50% or better.This feat was accomplished 56 times in MJ's era, vs 5 times in the modern era. That's pretty striking. I'm fairly certain that today's stars could duplicate the feats of those players if they played in that time


- and Please do us all a favor and show young MJ not getting transition Buckets...Did you even watch MJ play?...he was a amazing transition player and got tons of Buckets on the break....:lol

again, the Bull's did not have a back to the basket threat and were near the bottom in 3pt%

- Of course they weren't on Pace with other teams.....MJ was shooting the ball 30 times a game....and the Bull's were 2nd to last in 3pt %

- you can't use a fantasy stat and say "MJ never really got any easy buckets in transition" when in reality he got tons of Baskets in transition and how you wouldn't know that is beyond me...:facepalm


(thumps chest) still can't C me...that was 2EZ


anyone got any more questions?......anybody?









next

__________________________________________________ _______

I'm out for the night.....

Everyone...it's been fun talking hoop with y'all..

Don Dadda if you need anymore questions answered you can PM me son....





It's elementary ...

[Da_Realist]

And minus the 4.6 steals per game. :pimp:

And that's after playing cards all night and golf the next morning.

[ImKobe]

MJ put up 37.1 ppg at a pace of 95.8, Kobe put up 35.4 ppg at a pace of 90.9

translating Kobe's numbers into MJ's pace would be 37 ppg

[SamuraiSWISH]

And that's after playing cards all night and golf the next morning.
Was going to say ... :pimp:

[DonDadda59]

wow......I thought you trying to bring up a fantasy stat like "pace" to show that MJ couldn't get good shots..

Now you are saying he didn't get transition shots too?.....really?......really?

No you fool, I'm saying the Bulls were not an uptempo, fast break team. Of course he got his transition shots and the odd fast break (usually from a defensive play like a steal/block) but for the most part, as the facts show- The Bulls played at a pace that was usually near or at the very bottom of the league. Don't know why we're over here making believe that the triangle is akin to D'Antoni's 7 seconds or less scheme :lol


- NO.... FG% is not dependent on pace, nor is DRtg.

It's not 'dependent' on it, but it obviously affects it. Many factors go into it like personnel, coaching, player IQ, etc. But overall, it's basic common sense- you run, look for easier fastbreak opportunities, you're most likely going to do well % wise (especially if you have a smart PG, if guys are just running and gunning stupidly then obviously that won't work). For example (we'll do 20 year interval for symmetry):

'86-'87 Blazers (#2 Pace, 2nd league with 50% overall FG, led scoring)

SF- Vandeweghe: 27 PPG (52% FG)
SG- Drexler: 22 PPG (50% FG)

*The slowest paced team was CHI- no perimeter player shot 50% (Jordan put up 37 PPG on 48% FG)

'06-'07 Phoenix Suns (#3 Pace, led the league with 49% overall FG, led scoring)


SF- Marion: 18 PPG (52% FG)
PG- Nash: 19 PPG (53% FG)

*The slowest paced team was Detroit- no perimeter player shot 50%, Rip was closest at 20 PPG at 47% FG.

2 examples, 20 years apart of the higher paced teams in the league who led in PPG and FG%... and lo and behold, their perimeter players put up shooting percentages much higher than the norm.

But I'm sure that's just pure coincidence, right?





Again, players scored 20+ PPG in MJ's era a whopping 56 times. And it was only done 5 times in the moder era. Do you really think today's players couldn't equal guys like Byron Scott, or Walter Davis?

You keep saying that, but for some reason you don't consider anything after 2010 as modern era for some reason. Stop bullshitting the public :lol

The dude who surpassed and marginalized your boy is gunning for 27 PPG on 60% so stop it son.


- 1) The 60's had a very high pace, yet a low FG%. There is no correlation to pace and FG%.

But the 60s and 70s had the lowest DRTGs ever, meaning (as we've been told by your lot) that is the greatest defensive era in NBA History... amirite?


2) +2.1 Drtg is extremely significant when we're discussing FG% ranges from 45-50%. And the stats from both eras bear this out. The difference between 45% and 50% is 9-20 FG vs 10-20 FG.

Again... 60s-70s had the lowest DRTGs, much bigger difference than a mere 2 pts. So how do you rank Kobe over Havlicek who won 8 championships during this defensively superior era? You can't.

And I hate to stress this again, but Bron is averaging 27 PPG on 58% FG, with Durant putting up 31 PPG on 51% shooting. Isn't it just a little convenient that guys on either side of his career are able to reach these levels of efficiency? I mean were defenses only great when Bean was playing against them? :lol


3) players avergaed 20+ PPG for a season while shooting 50% or better.This feat was accomplished 56 times in MJ's era, vs 5 times in the modern era. That's pretty striking. I'm fairly certain that today's stars could duplicate the feats of those players if they played in that time

Again... stop bullshitting the public. The NBA didn't end after the Lakers' last championship win, as much as it may feel that way to you :lol


- and Please do us all a favor and show young MJ not getting transition Buckets...Did you even watch MJ play?...he was a amazing transition player and got tons of Buckets on the break....:lol

Yeah... see the above.


again, the Bull's did not have a back to the basket threat and were near the bottom in 3pt%

Jordan was one of the best post up players of his era, and ever. The triangle started with him in the post ala Shaq and then Kobe during his 2 peat.


- Of course they weren't on Pace with other teams.....MJ was shooting the ball 30 times a game....and the Bull's were 2nd to last in 3pt %

Hyperbole never helps with your point, especially when you don't have one. The Bulls were always near or at the bottom of the league in terms of pace, whether it was during the Lakers/Nuggets run and gun days or the late 90s half court grind. They got transition baskets from defense, but they were always a half court team.


- you can't use a fantasy stat and say "MJ never really got any easy buckets in transition" when in reality he got tons of Baskets in transition and how you wouldn't know that is beyond me...:facepalm

Except I never said that so you just look like a damn fool.



(thumps chest) still can't C me...that was 2EZ


anyone got any more questions?......anybody?

next



:oldlol:

Ain't he adorable?

[Mr Feeny]

No you fool, I'm saying the Bulls were not an uptempo, fast break team. Of course he got his transition shots and the odd fast break (usually from a defensive play like a steal/block) but for the most part, as the facts show- The Bulls played at a pace that was usually near or at the very bottom of the league. Don't know why we're over here making believe that the triangle is akin to D'Antoni's 7 seconds or less scheme :lol



It's not 'dependent' on it, but it obviously affects it. Many factors go into it like personnel, coaching, player IQ, etc. But overall, it's basic common sense- you run, look for easier fastbreak opportunities, you're most likely going to do well % wise (especially if you have a smart PG, if guys are just running and gunning stupidly then obviously that won't work). For example (we'll do 20 year interval for symmetry):

'86-'87 Blazers (#2 Pace, 2nd league with 50% overall FG, led scoring)

SF- Vandeweghe: 27 PPG (52% FG)
SG- Drexler: 22 PPG (50% FG)

*The slowest paced team was CHI- no perimeter player shot 50% (Jordan put up 37 PPG on 48% FG)

'06-'07 Phoenix Suns (#3 Pace, led the league with 49% overall FG, led scoring)


SF- Marion: 18 PPG (52% FG)
PG- Nash: 19 PPG (53% FG)

*The slowest paced team was Detroit- no perimeter player shot 50%, Rip was closest at 20 PPG at 47% FG.

2 examples, 20 years apart of the higher paced teams in the league who led in PPG and FG%... and lo and behold, their perimeter players put up shooting percentages much higher than the norm.

But I'm sure that's just pure coincidence, right?






You keep saying that, but for some reason you don't consider anything after 2010 as modern era for some reason. Stop bullshitting the public :lol

The dude who surpassed and marginalized your boy is gunning for 27 PPG on 60% so stop it son.



But the 60s and 70s had the lowest DRTGs ever, meaning (as we've been told by your lot) that is the greatest defensive era in NBA History... amirite?



Again... 60s-70s had the lowest DRTGs, much bigger difference than a mere 2 pts. So how do you rank Kobe over Havlicek who won 8 championships during this defensively superior era? You can't.

And I hate to stress this again, but Bron is averaging 27 PPG on 58% FG, with Durant putting up 31 PPG on 51% shooting. Isn't it just a little convenient that guys on either side of his career are able to reach these levels of efficiency? I mean were defenses only great when Bean was playing against them? :lol



Again... stop bullshitting the public. The NBA didn't end after the Lakers' last championship win, as much as it may feel that way to you :lol



Yeah... see the above.



Jordan was one of the best post up players of his era, and ever. The triangle started with him in the post ala Shaq and then Kobe during his 2 peat.



Hyperbole never helps with your point, especially when you don't have one. The Bulls were always near or at the bottom of the league in terms of pace, whether it was during the Lakers/Nuggets run and gun days or the late 90s half court grind. They got transition baskets from defense, but they were always a half court team.



Except I never said that so you just look like a damn fool.





:oldlol:

Ain't he adorable?

Wow. I don't think I've ever seen one poster eviscerate another like this since I've been on ISH. Props:cheers:

[Mr Feeny]

55 in NBA Finals > 40 in NBA Finals
54 on Riley's Knicks in ECF > 50 on D'Antoni's Suns in 1st round
37 ppg > 35 ppg
10 scoring titles > 2 scoring titles
30 ppg career > 25 ppg career

You went too easy:

8 playoff 50 point games > 1 playoff 50 point game
1 playoff 60 point game > 0 playoff 60 point games
50% fg > 45% fg
33.6 ppg in finals > 25 ppg on 41% shooting in finals
20+ points in ALL NBA finals games > 8 point stinkers for the ages
41 ppg average in single NBA finals series > One 40 point game in finals career

Why stop at scoring though?

Choking 3-1 playoff series and then putting up 1 point in 2nd half of game 7
On receiving end of largest comeback in finals history on home floor (Boston gm4 08)
Massacred in an opposition title clinching game by 39 points (2nd largest destruction in NBA finals history)
15ppg on 36% shooting and 22 ppg on 38% fg in separate embarrassing showings in finals
Giving Phil jackson his first every 1st round exit
Giving Phil Jackson his first every sweep
Worst shooting % by any finals MVP in the history of the NBA

vs
Mj
:cheers:

[Mr Feeny]

00' Game 7 wasn't legendary?....Kobe fueled the comeback?

Game 4 vs Indiana on a busted ankle wasn't legendary?

01' the whole series vs Tim Duncan's Spurs wasn't legendary?

Game 3 one on one vs AI wasn't legendary?

If MJ scoring 60 and getting swept by Boston is legendary then so is hitting game tying and game winning jumpers in the same game vs PHX in 06'

08' vs Melo wasn't legendary?

09' Finals Game 1?

10' Finals 21 straight points?



I know you guys are trollin...but damn.

still can't C me.

If you think Kobe's performance against the Suns in 06 when he became the 8th man to choke away a 3-1 series lead as lead dog is legendary or comparable to MJ's playoff record 63 in Boston Garden where he decimated legend after legend promting Larry Bird to describe him as God in disguise, then you are even dummer than I had you pegged.

Go wear a purple Cena shirt kid. Leave the forum for grown-ups.

[Mr Feeny]

Seems completely arbitrary. He would have fit right in on ISH. 3 titles is worth than 5 because they were all in a row. Checkmate. No one can touch me. I am so great. What else could I possibly to prove myself in this game? :facepalmMagic ( the Lakers' best player in those championships) certainly thinks that 3 straight was more impressive and that is why he declared Jordan greater than him and anointed him the greatest ever in the middle of the 1993 NBA finals against Phoenix:applause:

[Nevaeh]

Damn Don, how many times do you have to lawyer these idiots before they accept defeat? Oh yeah I forgot, this is ISH. where even blatant idiots get praised and repped..

http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif


Glad to have Da Realist in here also, after being gone so long. Good to finally see you back Brotha.

http://207.58.151.151/forum/images/smilies/cheers.gif

[comerb]

Jordan and it isn't close.

[Da_Realist]

Glad to have Da Realist in here also, after being gone so long. Good to finally see you back Brotha.

http://207.58.151.151/forum/images/smilies/cheers.gif

Good to be back my man. I don't need to post much. ISH is DonDadda's and Swish's world. I'm just reading... :cheers:

[Angel Face]

Thread reached so many pages. Everyone with proper brain cells intact knows that MJ>Kobe, scoring wise and as an overall player.

[ArbitraryWater]

Good to be back my man. I don't need to post much. ISH is DonDadda's and Swish's world. I'm just reading... :cheers:

Da Realist :eek: :eek: :eek:

Well DonDadda didn't/doesn't seem to post more frequently anymore either... guess he's back to ethering kobe stans though

[ArbitraryWater]

He's had some very memorable individual games. But he has yet to have entire playoff series, or Finals series where he produces substantially more than his regular averages. His 2013 playoffs were disappointing, given such a great regular season. I'd love to see him have a godly playoffs. And finally an NBA Finals series on West / Bird / Magic / Jordan / Shaq / Wade's level.

He's had his fair share of dominant playoff series'. But the 2012 Finals being the only REALLY great Finals.

I expected much more from him last year's playoffs tbh

If you erase Bird from that List you just picked out the best finals performers of all time :applause: (Wade 06/11)

[Calabis]

Because the last 3 years we have seen a resurgence in a high Drtg. This coincides with the gaudy numbers many stars in this time frame put up. whether it be Parker, Marion K Love and or Lebron the last few years, etc.

- and yet the thread is another KB vs MJ ...and I was simply using their defined era's...MJ shot 50% 5 times his first 6 seasons....he did it once his final 9

- clearly anyone who watched the 80's style vs mid 90's style defense...it was a very different game....and thus it evolved even futher into the 00's

- and if you want to further cling on FG%....and if you actually watched basketball the past 30 years....It was clearly harder to score in this era vs MJ's. From 00'-04, the leagues defense was insanely tough to score on. 2005-07 were tougher than any of MJ's years pre-1998.



In MJ's era, the league-wide Drtg was almsot always weak. In fact, from 85' to 96', the Drtg was always 107.2 or higher. In 1997 it dips to 106.7 & 105.0 in 98'(MJ's worst year as a Bull by far)

1985 - 107.9
1986 - 107.2
1987 - 108.3
1988 - 108.0
1989 - 107.8
1990 - 108.1
1991 - 107.9
1992 - 108.2
1993 - 108.0

1996 - 107.6
1997 - 106.7

MJ spent his prime years in a league that was "stastically" weak defensively. Players simply scored more per posseion by a significant margin in his time.


Fast-forward to the post-Lockout / Kobe era,

2000 - 104.1
2001 - 103.0
2002 - 104.5
2003 - 103.6
2004 - 102.9
2005 - 106.1
2006 - 106.2
2007 - 106.5
2008 - 107.5
2009 - 108.3
2010 - 107.6


why are you clinging to .4 difference in Fg%? seriously it's sad and tired and has been debunked over and over.


thumps chest....Next...... ( merkin Stans since 93 till infinity)





2EZ

__________________________________________________ _____

Edit: Not sure why all Kobe and MJ threads turns to fg%???

No one is saying Kobe was a better player or shot a higher FG%.

But my point is ...the league had changed defensively....The league is also played at a much different pace then it was in the 80's and early 90's.

again, No one is saying Kobe was a better player.....all I'm saying is marginal FG% 45 - 49 in a totally different era.

No doubt in the 80's KB probably would posted up more and took less 3's....MJ if he started out now would be taking a lot more 3's....he probably would average more points IMO also. ( wow that would be fun to watch.)



Kobe and MJ arguably 2 of the greatest skill scorers ever....Like I said, MJ was a better player around the rim......Kobe IMO was a better outside shooter and creator from the perimeter.


Boy this guy sounds like the ultimate jackass

Basically Jordan played in a weak era.....now Lebron and KD do....only Kobe Bryant has played in a tough era

[Calabis]

MJ put up 37.1 ppg at a pace of 95.8, Kobe put up 35.4 ppg at a pace of 90.9

translating Kobe's numbers into MJ's pace would be 37 ppg

Translation Kobe shot the ball the same amount of times as MJ at a slower pace.....so please explain how it translates to anything other then being a black hole

[Odinn]

This is the game facet which has the smallest gap when we talk about Mike vs. Kobe.

What makes MJ greater scorer is the post-season play. There are so many 35+ and 40+ ppg series in his career.
But it's not a knock on Kobe. He was on his way to proving himself that he could match MJ's level on 2008 playoffs. He dominated entire WC with 31.9 ppg on .544 efg .814 ft (.605 ts). But since 1st 3peat MJ is the greatest NBA Finals performer alongside with 3peat Shaq, Kobe couldn't reach MJ kinda scoring level.

[ArbitraryWater]

This is the game facet which has the smallest gap when we talk about Mike vs. Kobe.

What makes MJ greater scorer is the post-season play. There are so many 35+ and 40+ ppg series in his career.
But it's not a knock on Kobe. He was on his way to proving himself that he could match MJ's level on 2008 playoffs. He dominated entire WC with 31.9 ppg on .544 efg .814 ft (.605 ts). But since 1st 3peat MJ is the greatest NBA Finals performer alongside with 3peat Shaq, Kobe couldn't reach MJ kinda scoring level.

? No its not. Rebounding/Playmaking IMO

[Yao Ming's Foot]

This is the game facet which has the smallest gap when we talk about Mike vs. Kobe.

What makes MJ greater scorer is the post-season play. There are so many 35+ and 40+ ppg series in his career.
But it's not a knock on Kobe. He was on his way to proving himself that he could match MJ's level on 2008 playoffs. He dominated entire WC with 31.9 ppg on .544 efg .814 ft (.605 ts). But since 1st 3peat MJ is the greatest NBA Finals performer alongside with 3peat Shaq, Kobe couldn't reach MJ kinda scoring level.


and how do the defenses Jordan faced in the playoffs compare to those Kobe faced?

[Mr Feeny]

and how do the defenses Jordan faced in the playoffs compare to those Kobe faced?

Riley's knicks? ptfff nothing on D'antoni's Suns...

[Odinn]

? No its not. Rebounding/Playmaking IMO
Peak vs. peak? Certainly it's not rebounding.

From '89 to '93; Jordan averaged 6.8 rpg in regular season and 6.7 rpg in the playoffs.
From '06 to '08; Kobe averaged 5.8 rpg in regular season and 5.7 rpg in the playoffs.

Their TRB% are roughly 10 to 8 in MJ's favour. When you consider a facet all alone itself, which means relatively, averaging that 1 more board per game is more difficult than averaging a few more points.

Playmaking/passing, it is about just the way you see, tho. MJ could run your offense with a lot more consistency compared to Kobe. He could run your offense while making the plays for entire season. You can not say something like that for Kobe.

[Odinn]

and how do the defenses Jordan faced in the playoffs compare to those Kobe faced?
You have been owned many times on this message board. The only thing you have my respect for is your consistency about the DRtg obsession.

Do not quote me ever again.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Riley's knicks? ptfff nothing on D'antoni's Suns...

I'm glad Jordan's toughest matchup compares favorably to Kobe's easiest but I'm talking averages here especially in the Finals.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You have been owned many times on this message board. The only thing you have my respect for is your consistency about the DRtg obsession.

Do not quote me ever again.

Link?

[TheMan]

The one with the 10 scoring titles, highest PPG in league History (both reg. season and playoffs).

It's close doe.










































:lol
:oldlol:

We're done here, folks:applause:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Good to be back my man. I don't need to post much. ISH is DonDadda's and Swish's world. I'm just reading... :cheers:
My dude, you're back. How are things? Don't stay gone this time.


Riley's knicks? ptfff nothing on D'antoni's Suns...
Bad Boy Pistons
Riley's '92 Knicks

Riley's '93 Knicks (only better ranked modern defense was the '08 Celtics, not significant either)
- Mind you, MJ performed better against this team than Kobe performed against the Celtics. W/ bum wrist too.

Riley's '97 Heat
GP's Sonics

Pffft defensive rating, doe. It's not like a well balanced team could make you work on the other end of the floor, tiring one out for offensive production, either. That makes too much sense. Let's just stick to defensive rating alone to determine the quality of an opponent.

Hell the '92 Blazers were one of the leagues best defenses the year they matched up with the Bulls in the Finals. They had the athleticism, size, and length to match up with the Bulls. With a much superior front court.

MJ @ 39, and 40 years old was dropping 40+ on the #1 ranked defense, the Nets, during YMF's claim of "the greatest defensive era" of 1998 - 2004.

:oldlol:

[Nevaeh]

Link?


http://207.58.151.151/forum/showthread.php?t=266155&page=7

[Yao Ming's Foot]

http://207.58.151.151/forum/showthread.php?t=266155&page=7

That's a gem. Thanks for the link,


It must be a huge coincidence that Jordan's numbers fell dramatically the couple of times he faced teams with defensive ratings within the same ballpark of what Kobe has faced in the Finals huh?

04 Spurs 94.1
99 Spurs 95.0
04 Pistons 95.4
01 Spurs 98.0
01 76ers 98.9
08 Celtics 98.9
00 Suns 99.0
04 Rockets 99.0
02 Nets 99.5
01 Kings 99.6
04 Twolves 99.7
02 Spurs 99.7
03 Spurs 99.7
93 Knicks 99.7
97 Heat 100.6
00 Blazers 100.8
02 Kings 101.1
98 Pacers 101.6
08 Spurs 101.8
01 Blazers 101.8
09 Magic 101.9
00 Kings 102.1

MJ vs 97 Heat

http://i.imgur.com/SUxvy.png

MJ vs 93 Knicks

http://i.imgur.com/tPFxI.png

[Mr Feeny]

I'm glad Jordan's toughest matchup compares favorably to Kobe's easiest but I'm talking averages here especially in the Finals.
What in the blue hell are u talking about son?

One on one defense against Prince?
Yes Kobe got spanked and held to 38% fg while Dwyane Wade shot 60+. Lebron torched him too.:cheers:

[Mr Feeny]

That's a gem. Thanks for the link,So basically both better than Kobe shot against Prince? Ermmm.okk
And that is while he was double and triple teamed and hand checked compared to one on one defense in a no handchecking era?
:banana:

[AlphaWolf24]

No you fool, I'm saying the Bulls were not an uptempo, fast break team. Of course he got his transition shots and the odd fast break (usually from a defensive play like a steal/block) but for the most part, as the facts show- The Bulls played at a pace that was usually near or at the very bottom of the league. Don't know why we're over here making believe that the triangle is akin to D'Antoni's 7 seconds or less scheme :lol



It's not 'dependent' on it, but it obviously affects it. Many factors go into it like personnel, coaching, player IQ, etc. But overall, it's basic common sense- you run, look for easier fastbreak opportunities, you're most likely going to do well % wise (especially if you have a smart PG, if guys are just running and gunning stupidly then obviously that won't work). For example (we'll do 20 year interval for symmetry):

'86-'87 Blazers (#2 Pace, 2nd league with 50% overall FG, led scoring)

SF- Vandeweghe: 27 PPG (52% FG)
SG- Drexler: 22 PPG (50% FG)

*The slowest paced team was CHI- no perimeter player shot 50% (Jordan put up 37 PPG on 48% FG)

'06-'07 Phoenix Suns (#3 Pace, led the league with 49% overall FG, led scoring)


SF- Marion: 18 PPG (52% FG)
PG- Nash: 19 PPG (53% FG)

*The slowest paced team was Detroit- no perimeter player shot 50%, Rip was closest at 20 PPG at 47% FG.

2 examples, 20 years apart of the higher paced teams in the league who led in PPG and FG%... and lo and behold, their perimeter players put up shooting percentages much higher than the norm.

But I'm sure that's just pure coincidence, right?



No , you are getting merked in this thread so you are reaching into the bottom of the barrell...

- Shawn Marion shot over 50% more times playing Dallas at a much lower Pace then he did in PHX

- Kiki V played at an incredibly high pace and shot a incredibly high FG%...not because he was running around making Layups...but because he got more shots and was a great rhythm shooter....

he played 15 seasons ( 10 in the 80's) and shot a 52%...even on much slower paced teams he shot near 50%...but IMO he shot lower because he took much less shots....and his game relied on step back jumpers and off the dribble moves.

- conversly , trying to use "Pace" and tell a story that MJ didn't get transition baskets is laughable....he got far more easy baskets then Marion and Kiki Vanderweigh...despite playing on slower paced teams.( who cares if they came from a steal or a quick play inbounds...the are still transition baskets)

and to directly go against your point....the years when MJ did shoot more... his FG% dipped....If he played on the 84' Nuggets doesn't mean he would shoot 56%....IMO I think the slower Pace helped MJ's FG%

he could Iso and take alot of Mid Range shots....and when his defenders played him honest..he could easily get past them.

- If he played in a Run and Gun offense with a bunch of shooters...it would fit him well IMO...and looking at the olmypics playing with Magic and Stockton...his game did suffer.




You keep saying that, but for some reason you don't consider anything after 2010 as modern era for some reason. Stop bullshitting the public :lol


:lol you keep saying this as it means something...go ahead and use the last 3 seasons?..what's going to change.

Lebron and Durant?....lebron , Parker were already the players I listed..

lebron is Bigger then Karl malone...and is playing like it.

1) A 56 to 5 margin is A LOT more than just players being NBA-ready, and taking less 3's and playing "run and Gun"

I should noted that the difference is even more dramatic if you look at the actual FG% of the players. In the MJ Era most were well above 50%, while the margin for modern players was very slim(Lebron was 50.3%, for example).


2) I have posted FG% during each era, Drtg during each era, and Volume scorers who shot 50%+ in each era.

No matter how you slice it, it's pretty obvious that it was easier to shoot a higher FG% in MJ's era...not saying he wouldn't be able to shoot 50% in the modern era...but IMO he would be shooting alot more 3's


The dude who surpassed and marginalized your boy is gunning for 27 PPG on 60% so stop it son.



so did Karl Malone...who gives a F about Bran...dude is a 6' 9" 270lbs beast


But the 60s and 70s had the lowest DRTGs ever, meaning (as we've been told by your lot) that is the greatest defensive era in NBA History... amirite?





Again... 60s-70s had the lowest DRTGs, much bigger difference than a mere 2 pts. So how do you rank Kobe over Havlicek who won 8 championships during this defensively superior era? You can't.


What I mean't was that if Players A makes 45 out of 100 shots, vs Player B who made 47 out of 100 shots, then that would be close to the differential of Drtg between MJ's era vs Today's. That's about 2.0%. Then you have to factor in the increased use of the 3-point shot which lowers FG% yet again. I posted the data for FG% and Drtg because I think it explains the FG% dynamic between the two eras.


And I hate to stress this again, but Bron is averaging 27 PPG on 58% FG, with Durant putting up 31 PPG on 51% shooting. Isn't it just a little convenient that guys on either side of his career are able to reach these levels of efficiency? I mean were defenses only great when Bean was playing against them? :lol


" why?..LBJ's game now is nothing like MJ or KB...Might as well compare Malone vs MJ FG%"

Again... stop bullshitting the public. The NBA didn't end after the Lakers' last championship win, as much as it may feel that way to you :lol

I'm Bullshitting?...I'm trying to compare the top SG's and you keep harping about 6' 9" Lebron who is a career 49%Fg and Durant who is practically 7'...


I have already blown up your "OMG MJ shot 4% Higher...he didn't get any transition baskets...derp...derp"...theory's over and over....



Yeah... see the above.



Jordan was one of the best post up players of his era, and ever. The triangle started with him in the post ala Shaq and then Kobe during his 2 peat.



Hyperbole never helps with your point, especially when you don't have one. The Bulls were always near or at the bottom of the league in terms of pace, whether it was during the Lakers/Nuggets run and gun days or the late 90s half court grind. They got transition baskets from defense, but they were always a half court team.



:facepalm so..Mj still got more transition baskets then Kiki


Except I never said that so you just look like a damn fool.







:oldlol:



Kobe Bryant career

2PT%------------------------>48.3%
3PT%(eFG)------------------>33.9%
FT%-------------------------->83.7%
TS%(2PT%+ 3PT%+ FT%)-->55.7%

Michael Jordan career

2PT%------------------------>51.0%
3PT%(eFG)------------------>32.7%
FT%-------------------------->83.5%
TS%(2PT%+ 3PT%+ FT%)-->56.9%

Overall, in points per possesion kobe is behind michael by only 1.2% because he is marginally a better FT shooter, and he takes and makes a lot more threes(the main reason he's so behind in FG%). But overall, with all factors considered he's literally behind jordan by only 1.2% in overall efficiency. It's amazing how people downplay kobe's FG% without taking into account he took 3X the amount of threes, was more efficient from beyond the arc, and was marginally a better FT shooter..

1.2%

1.2%

1.2%

1.2%


similar players...similar roles.....similar results.


Ain't he adorable?


:D






(yawns)....



next

[LBJ4MVP23]

Ill never understand why best scorer is determined by who has the more expansive arsenal by some people. Ultimately its who can score the most points in combination with who can do it on the least amount of attempts. Shaq wasn't the most skilled scorer, but he was one of the best because he quite simply put the ball in the bucket. What good is all that skill if it doesn't lend itself to more points and increased efficiency?

Jordan is a better scorer than kobe, but kobe is a special kind of scorer as well. Its the easy.

[AlphaWolf24]

(sips some coffee)

who's the next Jordan stan to step up?...I'll take on all y'all busters.

Come .....at....me....Bro.







bring up Kiki Vanderweigh or Shawn Marion again....and see what happens.

Kobe Bryant career

2PT%------------------------>48.3%
3PT%(eFG)------------------>33.9%
FT%-------------------------->83.7%
TS%(2PT%+ 3PT%+ FT%)-->55.7%

Michael Jordan career

2PT%------------------------>51.0%
3PT%(eFG)------------------>32.7%
FT%-------------------------->83.5%
TS%(2PT%+ 3PT%+ FT%)-->56.9%

1.2%


1.2%


1.2%


1.2%


1.2% marginal difference at best.

[AlphaWolf24]

Ill never understand why best scorer is determined by who has the more expansive arsenal by some people. Ultimately its who can score the most points in combination with who can do it on the least amount of attempts. Shaq wasn't the most skilled scorer, but he was one of the best because he quite simply put the ball in the bucket. What good is all that skill if it doesn't lend itself to more points and increased efficiency?

Jordan is a better scorer than kobe, but kobe is a special kind of scorer as well. Its the easy.


Ok so Wilt Chamberlain is getting the ball over MJ?..because Wilt was just putting the ball in the hoop at 55%

F' NO....especially in crunchtime.

[longhornfan1234]

Good God....MJ stans are getting destroyed. :lol

[Mr Feeny]

(sips some coffee)

who's the next Jordan stan to step up?...I'll take on all y'all busters.

Come .....at....me....Bro.







bring up Kiki Vanderweigh or Shawn Marion again....and see what happens.

Kobe Bryant career

2PT%------------------------>48.3%
3PT%(eFG)------------------>33.9%
FT%-------------------------->83.7%
TS%(2PT%+ 3PT%+ FT%)-->55.7%

Michael Jordan career

2PT%------------------------>51.0%
3PT%(eFG)------------------>32.7%
FT%-------------------------->83.5%
TS%(2PT%+ 3PT%+ FT%)-->56.9%

1.2%


1.2%


1.2%


1.2%


1.2% marginal difference at best.

Mmm...so MJ shoots better than? Alright

[LBJ4MVP23]

I understand in that particular situation you would say Jordan 100% of the time, but in the course of a game more ways to score doesnt always translate into better scorer. Additionally in the "clutch" the guy with the greater arsenal isn't always the best closer as evidence by metrics that clearly articulate how often the ball is going into the basket at the end of close games.

[AlphaWolf24]

Mmm...so MJ shoots better than? Alright


1.2%

1.2%

1.2%

1.2%

1.2%

1.2%

1.2%


and he played in an era when perimeter players took far less 3 pointers

Last year Thabo Sefolosha nearly took as many 3's as Prime Dale Ellis ( one of the greatest perimeter sghooters ever)

- again, no is saying MJ wasn't a better shooter FG% wise...he was.

- but factoring when he played and the style of defense...more perimeter players shot a higher FG% becuase of the defensive strategies/style of the era's.

- also looking at Kobe and MJ's overall shooting %....meh....MJ was a better finisher around the basket...Kobe a better shooter from 20+...

[Leviathon1121]

Good God....MJ stans are getting destroyed. :lol

Where?

[AlphaWolf24]

I understand in that particular situation you would say Jordan 100% of the time, but in the course of a game more ways to score doesnt always translate into better scorer. Additionally in the "clutch" the guy with the greater arsenal isn't always the best closer as evidence by metrics that clearly articulate how often the ball is going into the basket at the end of close games.


I don't really know what you are trying say...

were Shaq, Wilt , Hakeem great scorers?....yes they were.

were they better then MJ, Kobe and Tmac type players?...No

Not sure what stats you are using to make your opinion...I would base it on wich player could do more with the ball when looking at Creating Movement, passing lanes,and creating a shot form themselves or others...and Finally to end it in a made basket or Freethrows.

Could Wilt Score at will and or Find teammates....hello 50PPG (he actually led the league in assists one year)....yes he could...was he a better scorer then MJ?..IMO ...no he wasn't.

Tyson Chandler has a great FG%...Lou Williams has a great FG% in Crunchtime ( using advanced stats).:confusedshrug:

[DonDadda59]

(yawns)....



next

Jesus Christ, let it go already :oldlol:


conversly , trying to use "Pace" and tell a story that MJ didn't get transition baskets is laughable

:facepalm

You are incredibly thick. For the last time- Show me where I said Jordan didn't get transition baskets... I'll wait. And again- the facts show that no matter the era- whether it was during the fast paced, uptempo 80s or the grind em out half court centered 90s.... the Bulls were always at or near the bottom of the league in terms of pace. This is an undeniable fact. Spin it however you want. Jordan post leg break played on teams that had a pace of 89-97, Bean after becoming a full time starter played on Lakers team that played in the 90-96 range.


and to directly go against your point....the years when MJ did shoot more... his FG% dipped

Yeah, 'dipped' to levels Kobe never reached in 17 years :lol


lebron is Bigger then Karl malone...and is playing like it.

Jesus Christ :oldlol:

So now Lebron plays like Karl Malone? How many 3s per game did the mailman average? Is Lebron getting his points off of PnR with a great PG and posting up? And I thought Lebron's post game (according to Bean stans) was garbage.

The only thing Karl Malone and Lebron James have in common is that they're black and like to work out.


No matter how you slice it, it's pretty obvious that it was easier to shoot a higher FG% in MJ's era...not saying he wouldn't be able to shoot 50% in the modern era...but IMO he would be shooting alot more 3's

Which is why no one takes your opinion seriously. You've deluded yourself into thinking that 'zone' 'forces' people to take more 3s when 1) No team plays 'zone' for more than a handful of possessions, if ever 2) Plenty of players have put up great %s while, like Jordan, focusing on mid range/post up/drives. Examples (last 3 years average):

Dwyane Wade (averages 1.7 3s/gm for career, same exact # as MJ: 21 PPG (52% FG) averages 0.9 3s/gm. Taking only 0.6 3s per game and he's shooting a career high 56%... on one leg.

Tony Parker: 19 PPG (50% FG), averages 1.1 3s/gm, averages 1.4 3s/gm for his career (less than Jordan)

These guys have 6 championships, 2 finals MVPs combined... and they barely take 1 three per game... coincidentally, they happen to be players from this era who have no problem reaching that 50% plateau... go figure. But yeah, Jordan would be chucking up 3s today because... I don't know, he wants to fit in with the low IQ chuckers? :confusedshrug:

Even Lebron- you compare his shot selection from CLE to MIA and there's no mystery why his %s have skyrocketed. And no, it's not because he's playing like Karl Malone :lol

It's the most basic of common sense. You take less, low % long range shots, you focus on the smarter, higher IQ shots- drives, post ups, mid range... and you're going to shoot better than you would settling for dumb 3s. Absolutely no one is 'forced' to take 3s unless they have the ball out there and the shot clock is about to run out. Players have more offensive freedom now than they ever did- the smart ones are clearly taking advantage. If anyone is being 'forced' to settle for low % shots, then it's not the defense. You have to question the player's IQ and ability.

As you yourself have pointed out- the 3 was not a big part of the game back then. Guys were focused on taking the sort of shot Wade/Bron/Parker/etc get nowadays... which is why the #s are comparable. If Jordan played today, his numbers would be even more monstrous. He'd be putting up present day Wade and Bron shooting percentages with higher PPG. Defense is a joke nowadays. It's just that certain guys aren't smart enough to figure out the punch line yet.


similar players...similar roles.....similar results.

And here we go again with you posting stats that factor in FT shooting like that's supposed to prove something :lol

Really? We're talking about player efficiency, defensive schemes, pace, scoring ability... and you bring up some useless stat that gives precedence to ft shooting? Word? OK, let's look at some other advanced metrics...


Jordan Player Efficiency Rating: 27.91 (all time leader) peak of 31.7 (#3 all time), led the league 7X
Kobe Player Efficiency Rating: 23.4 (20th all time), peak of peak of 28 (#56 all time)


Jordan Offensive Rating: Career 118, peak of 125
Kobe Offensive Rating: Career 111, peak of 115

Jordan eFG%: .509%, peak of .547%
Kobe eFG%: .487%, peak of .504%

Jordan Offensive Win Shares: 149.9 Led the league 8X, Finished 2nd 3X
Kobe Offensive Win Shares: 123.4

Jordan USG%: 33.3 (#1 All time)
Kobe USG%: 31.8 (#4 All time)

Why is it that the Bean stans never use these other advanced efficiency/offensive metrics? They always seem to focus in on th one that takes f*cking FT shooting into account :oldlol:

so yeah, both guys played the same position, for the same coaches, in the same system, playing relatively the same pace, even had very similar usage rates... but the results are clearly not the same.

The fact that we're even having this discussion in 2014 is ridiculous. But I am enjoying laughing my ass off in this thread. Keep doing what you're doing :cheers:

[Stringer Bell]

Jordan. He was simply better than Kobe in nearly all aspects of the game.

[DonDadda59]

That's a gem. Thanks for the link,

Look up 'persistent' in the dictionary and you'll see a picture of this guy. Also works for 'thick' and 'misguided'. But since he won't let go of his DRTG fantasy...

You do realize that all of those teams you listed, every single one of the teams that Bean wet the bed against and were labeled 'GOAT' because of it... all of them would be average-slightly above average in the 70s right? Not even going to touch the 60s and their sub 90s DRTGs :lol


Top 5 Defenses from 1973-74

1) Bulls- 93.6
2) Bucks- 93.6
3) Pistons- 93.8
4) Bullets- 94.2
5) Knicks- 94.7

John Havlicek won his 8th championship and first (official) finals MVP that season, LOOK at the sort of defenses he had to go through. DRTG tells us tat Bean would've been lucky to put up 15 PPG on 36% (and ironically enough, if Shaq was still on his team it'd be enough to win the 'ship). So I never again want to hear any Bean stan talk about 'weak eras' when their own logic tells us John Havlicek with his 8 rangz, should be ranked higher then him since he did it in a FAR superior defensive era.


And we don't have to pretend that Bean saves his shittiest performances for the DRTG gods. No no no, check this...

His performances against 100+ DRTG squads in the playoffs:


97 vs Portland (103.3 DRTG): 8.5 PPG (30%FG)
97 vs Utah (104 DRTG): 8.8 PPG (32% FG) *Including the infamous 4 airballs in the clutch game*
98 vs Portland (102.4): 11 PPG (42% FG)
98 vs Utah (105.4 DRTG): 10 PPG (37% FG)
99 vs Houston (102.9 DRTG): 18 PPG (41% FG)
00 vs Indiana (103.6 DRTG): 15.6 PPG (37%) *Finals series where Bean won first rang*
02 vs Portland (104 DRTG): 26 PPG (35% FG)
02 vs Sacramento (101.1 DRTG): 27 PPG (42% FG)
10 vs OKC (104.6 DRTG): 23.5 PPG (41% FG)
*On 2 occasions he shot below 40% but the DRTG on those teams were 99 and 99.7 :lol *

Before the rule changes in the middle of the last decade, Bean was very prone to giving his squad a sub 45% shooting series, many times dipping below 40%, didn't matter what the DRTG was. Bean stans should thank the basketball Gods for the Big Eraser and Stern.

Yeah, we're done here :oldlol:


:cheers:

[LBJ4MVP23]

Why is it that advanced metrics, stats, etc. do nothing but boost the greatness of Jordan, Wilt, Duncan, etc. and yet as though there is some super natural force at work, hurt kobe. Kobe is the only superstar supposed challenge to the GOAT throne who's impact is not supported by statistics. Fascinating.

[DonDadda59]

Why is it that advanced metrics, stats, etc. do nothing but boost the greatness of Jordan, Wilt, Duncan, etc. and yet as though there is some super natural force at work, hurt kobe. Kobe is the only superstar supposed challenge to the GOAT throne who's impact is not supported by statistics. Fascinating.

FT shooting doe.

[Knoe Itawl]

Look up 'persistent' in the dictionary and you'll see a picture of this guy. Also works for 'thick' and 'misguided'. But since he won't let go of his DRTG fantasy...

You do realize that all of those teams you listed, every single one of the teams that Bean wet the bed against and were labeled 'GOAT' because of it... all of them would be average-slightly above average in the 70s right? Not even going to touch the 60s and their sub 90s DRTGs :lol


Top 5 Defenses from 1973-74

1) Bulls- 93.6
2) Bucks- 93.6
3) Pistons- 93.8
4) Bullets- 94.2
5) Knicks- 94.7

John Havlicek won his 8th championship and first (official) finals MVP that season, LOOK at the sort of defenses he had to go through. DRTG tells us tat Bean would've been lucky to put up 15 PPG on 36% (and ironically enough, if Shaq was still on his team it'd be enough to win the 'ship). So I never again want to hear any Bean stan talk about 'weak eras' when their own logic tells us John Havlicek with his 8 rangz, should be ranked higher then him since he did it in a FAR superior defensive era.


And we don't have to pretend that Bean saves his shittiest performances for the DRTG gods. No no no, check this...

His performances against 100+ DRTG squads in the playoffs:


97 vs Portland (103.3 DRTG): 8.5 PPG (30%FG)
97 vs Utah (104 DRTG): 8.8 PPG (32% FG) *Including the infamous 4 airballs in the clutch game*
98 vs Portland (102.4): 11 PPG (42% FG)
98 vs Utah (105.4 DRTG): 10 PPG (37% FG)
99 vs Houston (102.9 DRTG): 18 PPG (41% FG)
00 vs Indiana (103.6 DRTG): 15.6 PPG (37%) *Finals series where Bean won first rang*
02 vs Portland (104 DRTG): 26 PPG (35% FG)
02 vs Sacramento (101.1 DRTG): 27 PPG (42% FG)
10 vs OKC (104.6 DRTG): 23.5 PPG (41% FG)
*On 2 occasions he shot below 40% but the DRTG on those teams were 99 and 99.7 :lol *

Before the rule changes in the middle of the last decade, Bean was very prone to giving his squad a sub 45% shooting series, many times dipping below 40%, didn't matter what the DRTG was. Bean stans should thank the basketball Gods for the Big Eraser and Stern.

Yeah, we're done here :oldlol:


:cheers:

Please Hammer Don't Hurt Em' :eek:

[DonDadda59]

Please Hammer Don't Hurt Em' :eek:

http://www.cybergorillas.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/too-legit-to-quit.gif

:hammertime:

[f0und]

00' Game 7 wasn't legendary?....Kobe fueled the comeback?

Game 4 vs Indiana on a busted ankle wasn't legendary?

01' the whole series vs Tim Duncan's Spurs wasn't legendary?

Game 3 one on one vs AI wasn't legendary?

If MJ scoring 60 and getting swept by Boston is legendary then so is hitting game tying and game winning jumpers in the same game vs PHX in 06'

08' vs Melo wasn't legendary?

09' Finals Game 1?

10' Finals 21 straight points?



I know you guys are trollin...but damn.

still can't C me.

lol @ you using a handful of games out of what, 220 games? id hope he has a few games here and there. for every supposedly legendary legend kobe has, mj has entire legendary playoff series?

[Derivative]

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s178/toyotamotors/CareerStats_zpsd0f50f9c.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s178/toyotamotors/AdvanceStats_zps09511cb7.jpg


http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s178/toyotamotors/Clutch1_zps065b73d0.jpg


http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s178/toyotamotors/Clutch2_zpse2ee3bf6.png

[Young X]

^^^ Damn.

[mehyaM24]

clearly stats from the 80s and 90s - both PPG+FG%- are inflated, due to faster run-and-gun pace(think 2005 Suns, 2007 Warriors), inferior defense, and inferior players.

[mehyaM24]

[quote]Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Tracy McGrady

KICKS: If you guys could change one rule in the League, what would it be?
Kevin Garnett: No zone.
Tim Duncan : Yeah, the zone.
Kevin Garnett: If there was one rule I could change today, it would be the zone.
KICKS: Because it didn

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Look up 'persistent' in the dictionary and you'll see a picture of this guy. Also works for 'thick' and 'misguided'. But since he won't let go of his DRTG fantasy...


You are writing essays switching up the fonts to help your presentation and calling out other people for trying too hard. :oldlol:


You do realize that all of those teams you listed, every single one of the teams that Bean wet the bed against and were labeled 'GOAT' because of it... all of them would be average-slightly above average in the 70s right? Not even going to touch the 60s and their sub 90s DRTGs :lol

Strawman argument #1

I never claimed lower defensive rating = better defense. Lower defensive rating rating = most efficient defense. Not best primarily because different defenses played under different rules some more favorable to offenses than others.



Top 5 Defenses from 1973-74

1) Bulls- 93.6
2) Bucks- 93.6
3) Pistons- 93.8
4) Bullets- 94.2
5) Knicks- 94.7

John Havlicek won his 8th championship and first (official) finals MVP that season, LOOK at the sort of defenses he had to go through. DRTG tells us tat Bean would've been lucky to put up 15 PPG on 36% (and ironically enough, if Shaq was still on his team it'd be enough to win the 'ship). So I never again want to hear any Bean stan talk about 'weak eras' when their own logic tells us John Havlicek with his 8 rangz, should be ranked higher then him since he did it in a FAR superior defensive era.


Strawman argument #2

I never claimed that ranking players is based solely on ring totals and defensive rating of opponents faced.


And we don't have to pretend that Bean saves his shittiest performances for the DRTG gods. No no no, check this...

His performances against 100+ DRTG squads in the playoffs:


97 vs Portland (103.3 DRTG): 8.5 PPG (30%FG)
97 vs Utah (104 DRTG): 8.8 PPG (32% FG) *Including the infamous 4 airballs in the clutch game*
98 vs Portland (102.4): 11 PPG (42% FG)
98 vs Utah (105.4 DRTG): 10 PPG (37% FG)
99 vs Houston (102.9 DRTG): 18 PPG (41% FG)
00 vs Indiana (103.6 DRTG): 15.6 PPG (37%) *Finals series where Bean won first rang*
02 vs Portland (104 DRTG): 26 PPG (35% FG)
02 vs Sacramento (101.1 DRTG): 27 PPG (42% FG)
10 vs OKC (104.6 DRTG): 23.5 PPG (41% FG)
*On 2 occasions he shot below 40% but the DRTG on those teams were 99 and 99.7 :lol *

Strawman argument #3

I never claimed that every single time a player faces an inefficient defense they put up monster numbers. Cherry picking series is about as solid of an argument as showing a youtube clip of Dennis Rodman getting dunked on and pretending that dismantles 82 games worth of data.


Before the rule changes in the middle of the last decade, Bean was very prone to giving his squad a sub 45% shooting series, many times dipping below 40%, didn't matter what the DRTG was. Bean stans should thank the basketball Gods for the Big Eraser and Stern.



Baseless accusation without any sort of corroborating evidence.
Also desperately clinging to field goal percentages while we have more telling efficiency stats that everyone knows tell the whole story.



Yeah, we're done here :oldlol:


:cheers:

Better luck next time :cheers:

[Rocketswin2013]

Jesus Christ, let it go already :oldlol:



:facepalm

You are incredibly thick. For the last time- Show me where I said Jordan didn't get transition baskets... I'll wait. And again- the facts show that no matter the era- whether it was during the fast paced, uptempo 80s or the grind em out half court centered 90s.... the Bulls were always at or near the bottom of the league in terms of pace. This is an undeniable fact. Spin it however you want. Jordan post leg break played on teams that had a pace of 89-97, Bean after becoming a full time starter played on Lakers team that played in the 90-96 range.



Yeah, 'dipped' to levels Kobe never reached in 17 years :lol



Jesus Christ :oldlol:

So now Lebron plays like Karl Malone? How many 3s per game did the mailman average? Is Lebron getting his points off of PnR with a great PG and posting up? And I thought Lebron's post game (according to Bean stans) was garbage.

The only thing Karl Malone and Lebron James have in common is that they're black and like to work out.



Which is why no one takes your opinion seriously. You've deluded yourself into thinking that 'zone' 'forces' people to take more 3s when 1) No team plays 'zone' for more than a handful of possessions, if ever 2) Plenty of players have put up great %s while, like Jordan, focusing on mid range/post up/drives. Examples (last 3 years average):

Dwyane Wade (averages 1.7 3s/gm for career, same exact # as MJ: 21 PPG (52% FG) averages 0.9 3s/gm. Taking only 0.6 3s per game and he's shooting a career high 56%... on one leg.

Tony Parker: 19 PPG (50% FG), averages 1.1 3s/gm, averages 1.4 3s/gm for his career (less than Jordan)

These guys have 6 championships, 2 finals MVPs combined... and they barely take 1 three per game... coincidentally, they happen to be players from this era who have no problem reaching that 50% plateau... go figure. But yeah, Jordan would be chucking up 3s today because... I don't know, he wants to fit in with the low IQ chuckers? :confusedshrug:

Even Lebron- you compare his shot selection from CLE to MIA and there's no mystery why his %s have skyrocketed. And no, it's not because he's playing like Karl Malone :lol

It's the most basic of common sense. You take less, low % long range shots, you focus on the smarter, higher IQ shots- drives, post ups, mid range... and you're going to shoot better than you would settling for dumb 3s. Absolutely no one is 'forced' to take 3s unless they have the ball out there and the shot clock is about to run out. Players have more offensive freedom now than they ever did- the smart ones are clearly taking advantage. If anyone is being 'forced' to settle for low % shots, then it's not the defense. You have to question the player's IQ and ability.

As you yourself have pointed out- the 3 was not a big part of the game back then. Guys were focused on taking the sort of shot Wade/Bron/Parker/etc get nowadays... which is why the #s are comparable. If Jordan played today, his numbers would be even more monstrous. He'd be putting up present day Wade and Bron shooting percentages with higher PPG. Defense is a joke nowadays. It's just that certain guys aren't smart enough to figure out the punch line yet.



And here we go again with you posting stats that factor in FT shooting like that's supposed to prove something :lol

Really? We're talking about player efficiency, defensive schemes, pace, scoring ability... and you bring up some useless stat that gives precedence to ft shooting? Word? OK, let's look at some other advanced metrics...


Jordan Player Efficiency Rating: 27.91 (all time leader) peak of 31.7 (#3 all time), led the league 7X
Kobe Player Efficiency Rating: 23.4 (20th all time), peak of peak of 28 (#56 all time)


Jordan Offensive Rating: Career 118, peak of 125
Kobe Offensive Rating: Career 111, peak of 115

Jordan eFG%: .509%, peak of .547%
Kobe eFG%: .487%, peak of .504%

Jordan Offensive Win Shares: 149.9 Led the league 8X, Finished 2nd 3X
Kobe Offensive Win Shares: 123.4

Jordan USG%: 33.3 (#1 All time)
Kobe USG%: 31.8 (#4 All time)

Why is it that the Bean stans never use these other advanced efficiency/offensive metrics? They always seem to focus in on th one that takes f*cking FT shooting into account :oldlol:

so yeah, both guys played the same position, for the same coaches, in the same system, playing relatively the same pace, even had very similar usage rates... but the results are clearly not the same.

The fact that we're even having this discussion in 2014 is ridiculous. But I am enjoying laughing my ass off in this thread. Keep doing what you're doing :cheers:

Ownage, flat out ownage in every single way.

[Rocketswin2013]

Jesus Christ, let it go already :oldlol:



:facepalm

You are incredibly thick. For the last time- Show me where I said Jordan didn't get transition baskets... I'll wait. And again- the facts show that no matter the era- whether it was during the fast paced, uptempo 80s or the grind em out half court centered 90s.... the Bulls were always at or near the bottom of the league in terms of pace. This is an undeniable fact. Spin it however you want. Jordan post leg break played on teams that had a pace of 89-97, Bean after becoming a full time starter played on Lakers team that played in the 90-96 range.



Yeah, 'dipped' to levels Kobe never reached in 17 years :lol



Jesus Christ :oldlol:

So now Lebron plays like Karl Malone? How many 3s per game did the mailman average? Is Lebron getting his points off of PnR with a great PG and posting up? And I thought Lebron's post game (according to Bean stans) was garbage.

The only thing Karl Malone and Lebron James have in common is that they're black and like to work out.



Which is why no one takes your opinion seriously. You've deluded yourself into thinking that 'zone' 'forces' people to take more 3s when 1) No team plays 'zone' for more than a handful of possessions, if ever 2) Plenty of players have put up great %s while, like Jordan, focusing on mid range/post up/drives. Examples (last 3 years average):

Dwyane Wade (averages 1.7 3s/gm for career, same exact # as MJ: 21 PPG (52% FG) averages 0.9 3s/gm. Taking only 0.6 3s per game and he's shooting a career high 56%... on one leg.

Tony Parker: 19 PPG (50% FG), averages 1.1 3s/gm, averages 1.4 3s/gm for his career (less than Jordan)

These guys have 6 championships, 2 finals MVPs combined... and they barely take 1 three per game... coincidentally, they happen to be players from this era who have no problem reaching that 50% plateau... go figure. But yeah, Jordan would be chucking up 3s today because... I don't know, he wants to fit in with the low IQ chuckers? :confusedshrug:

Even Lebron- you compare his shot selection from CLE to MIA and there's no mystery why his %s have skyrocketed. And no, it's not because he's playing like Karl Malone :lol

It's the most basic of common sense. You take less, low % long range shots, you focus on the smarter, higher IQ shots- drives, post ups, mid range... and you're going to shoot better than you would settling for dumb 3s. Absolutely no one is 'forced' to take 3s unless they have the ball out there and the shot clock is about to run out. Players have more offensive freedom now than they ever did- the smart ones are clearly taking advantage. If anyone is being 'forced' to settle for low % shots, then it's not the defense. You have to question the player's IQ and ability.

As you yourself have pointed out- the 3 was not a big part of the game back then. Guys were focused on taking the sort of shot Wade/Bron/Parker/etc get nowadays... which is why the #s are comparable. If Jordan played today, his numbers would be even more monstrous. He'd be putting up present day Wade and Bron shooting percentages with higher PPG. Defense is a joke nowadays. It's just that certain guys aren't smart enough to figure out the punch line yet.



And here we go again with you posting stats that factor in FT shooting like that's supposed to prove something :lol

Really? We're talking about player efficiency, defensive schemes, pace, scoring ability... and you bring up some useless stat that gives precedence to ft shooting? Word? OK, let's look at some other advanced metrics...


Jordan Player Efficiency Rating: 27.91 (all time leader) peak of 31.7 (#3 all time), led the league 7X
Kobe Player Efficiency Rating: 23.4 (20th all time), peak of peak of 28 (#56 all time)


Jordan Offensive Rating: Career 118, peak of 125
Kobe Offensive Rating: Career 111, peak of 115

Jordan eFG%: .509%, peak of .547%
Kobe eFG%: .487%, peak of .504%

Jordan Offensive Win Shares: 149.9 Led the league 8X, Finished 2nd 3X
Kobe Offensive Win Shares: 123.4

Jordan USG%: 33.3 (#1 All time)
Kobe USG%: 31.8 (#4 All time)

Why is it that the Bean stans never use these other advanced efficiency/offensive metrics? They always seem to focus in on th one that takes f*cking FT shooting into account :oldlol:

so yeah, both guys played the same position, for the same coaches, in the same system, playing relatively the same pace, even had very similar usage rates... but the results are clearly not the same.

The fact that we're even having this discussion in 2014 is ridiculous. But I am enjoying laughing my ass off in this thread. Keep doing what you're doing :cheers:

/thread

[DonDadda59]

Strawman argument #1





Strawman argument #2





Strawman argument #3


http://ih2.redbubble.net/image.5388218.2775/flat,550x550,075,f.u1.jpg

^Strawman argument # 4

http://25.media.tumblr.com/9b639191c408b3b47f995c7928cc89df/tumblr_mgljiwIS1o1r94776o1_500.gif

^Bruh Man from the fifth flo:



Baseless accusation without any sort of corroborating evidence.


Bean in the playoffs pre '05 rules changes: 22.6 PPG on 43.4% FG (includes several sub 40% shooting series) *25.5 PPG on 43.6% FG as a starter*

Bean in the playoffs post '05 rules canges: 29 PPG on 46% FG

Baseless? :confusedshrug:

Fact is, DRTG has been the sole basis for your misguided argument on this board. Time to go back to the drawing boards, son. God speed :cheers:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

http://ih2.redbubble.net/image.5388218.2775/flat,550x550,075,f.u1.jpg

^Strawman argument # 4

http://25.media.tumblr.com/9b639191c408b3b47f995c7928cc89df/tumblr_mgljiwIS1o1r94776o1_500.gif

^Bruh Man from the fifth flo:




Bean in the playoffs pre '05 rules changes: 22.6 PPG on 43.4% FG (includes several sub 40% shooting series) *25.5 PPG on 43.6% FG as a starter*

Bean in the playoffs post '05 rules canges: 29 PPG on 46% FG

Baseless? :confusedshrug:

Fact is, DRTG has been the sole basis for your misguided argument on this board. Time to go back to the drawing boards, son. God speed :cheers:

If you guys were as good at actually making any logical arguments as you are at posting nonsensical pictures, cheerleading and prematurely calling your shots I would have been off these boards a long time ago.

:roll:

I'm looking for any evidence that "Bean's numbers are not impacted at all by DRATING" or the same for Jordan. I hope you realize this doesn't mean just cherry picking series here and there but thats probably giving you too much credit.

[AlphaWolf24]

Jesus Christ, let it go already


serious biznazz..:lol

:facepalm

You are incredibly thick. For the last time- Show me where I said Jordan didn't get transition baskets... I'll wait. And again- the facts show that no matter the era- whether it was during the fast paced, uptempo 80s or the grind em out half court centered 90s.... the Bulls were always at or near the bottom of the league in terms of pace. This is an undeniable fact. Spin it however you want. Jordan post leg break played on teams that had a pace of 89-97, Bean after becoming a full time starter played on Lakers team that played in the 90-96 range.


You said it here...

" generally the league in the 80s-early 90s played uptempo basketball that led to higher FG%,

the Bulls were always a slow paced/half court offense even back then.
Jordan was not getting his buckets mainly from fastbreak, uptempo style play in any era/decade."

when in reality...MJ got tons of transition baskets




Yeah, 'dipped' to levels Kobe never reached in 17 years :lol



yes..and as I have shown....why


Jesus Christ :oldlol:

So now Lebron plays like Karl Malone? How many 3s per game did the mailman average? Is Lebron getting his points off of PnR with a great PG and posting up? And I thought Lebron's post game (according to Bean stans) was garbage.

The only thing Karl Malone and Lebron James have in common is that they're black and like to work out.


Lebrons Post game was somewhat lacking...but around the 09' season he improved vastly...and after that indecent 11' showing...he improved greatly...His post game now is no where near what it was in 08'...

he has really worked to eliminate all weakness's and be a great Post Player
( I have always said this....just because I think Kobe and MJ are very similar doesn't make someone a stan):confusedshrug:

Bolded is not true at all....Both Malone and Bron developed great Mid range shots...and in Transition or finding lanes both were so physical....Lebron in Transition is probably the best ever..at least the best I seen.



Which is why no one takes your opinion seriously. You've deluded yourself into thinking that 'zone' 'forces' people to take more 3s when 1) No team plays 'zone' for more than a handful of possessions, if ever 2) Plenty of players have put up great %s while, like Jordan, focusing on mid range/post up/drives. Examples (last 3 years average):


who isn't taking me seriously?....obviously most people here talk trash about players, and some posters catch feelings if I said something about thier favorite player....but most people here I talk hoop with are great posters / funny posters and we respect each other greatly....even some of these Jordan Jocking Basketball illiterates ( like yerself) in this thread...

we PMe'd and luagh about it....most of the time it's all respect and love for the game. ( those who catch feelings and hate...shouldn't be listened to anyways)

Dwyane Wade (averages 1.7 3s/gm for career, same exact # as MJ: 21 PPG (52% FG) averages 0.9 3s/gm. Taking only 0.6 3s per game and he's shooting a career high 56%... on one leg.

Tony Parker: 19 PPG (50% FG), averages 1.1 3s/gm, averages 1.4 3s/gm for his career (less than Jordan)

These guys have 6 championships, 2 finals MVPs combined... and they barely take 1 three per game... coincidentally, they happen to be players from this era who have no problem reaching that 50% plateau... go figure. But yeah, Jordan would be chucking up 3s today because... I don't know, he wants to fit in with the low IQ chuckers? :


D Wade is taking 14 shots per game( when did MJ ever do that)....he does not have anywhere near the skillset to create in the post that MJ had.

MJ was always in between 22 - 25 shots per game...

If wade had the skill to create like MJ and shoot 23 times a game..his FG% would also drop.

Even Lebron- you compare his shot selection from CLE to MIA and there's no mystery why his %s have skyrocketed. And no, it's not because he's playing like Karl Malone :lol


well he most def worked on his mid range jumper and post game ( evolving greatly since 08')...and playing with so many great players in Miami, he can Post up and create...something he could not have done as easily in Cleveland.

and still not sure why you need to use LBJ who is Bigger then Karl malone and compare him to much smaller guys like MJ and Kobe?

It's the most basic of common sense. You take less, low % long range shots, you focus on the smarter, higher IQ shots- drives, post ups, mid range... and you're going to shoot better than you would settling for dumb 3s. Absolutely no one is 'forced' to take 3s unless they have the ball out there and the shot clock is about to run out. the smart ones are clearly taking advantage. If anyone is being 'forced' to settle for low % shots, then it's not the defense. You have to question the player's IQ and ability.


Actually you are incorrect again...Mid Range shots are by far the worst shot in Basketball..http://weaksideawareness.wordpress.com/2011/05/06/puzzling-nba-long-two-point-shots-edition-part1/


and one can easily point out that of course the closer you are to the hoop....the higher chance of making it....but again you miss the point and lack fundemental ability to fully understand the game.

Tyson Chandler shoots 60%...is he a better/smarter player then Dirk who only shoots 47%....off course not.

The Heat got beat by a great shooting team with a great 3 point shooter in 2011'....not because LBJ tok too many 3's....but because he played disengaged ball.

heck they nearly got beat last year by a great 3 point shooting team ( who has High IQ's..whatever that means) despite the Spurs being older and with far less talent.

Like I said...era's have changed....and so has the defense.


As you yourself have pointed out- the 3 was not a big part of the game back then. Guys were focused on taking the sort of shot Wade/Bron/Parker/etc get nowadays... which is why the #s are comparable. If Jordan played today, his numbers would be even more monstrous. He'd be putting up present day Wade and Bron shooting percentages with higher PPG. Defense is a joke nowadays. It's just that certain guys aren't smart enough to figure out the punch line yet.


If you think 21 year old MJ would be coming into the modern NBA shooting .8 3pa per game at .183% you are delusional...he would be taking alot of jumpers and be much more perimeter orientated.

Granted I know he could still be dominate taking 25 shots a game( maybe even score MORE)..but FG% would hover around 46 - 48%

And here we go again with you posting stats that factor in FT shooting like that's supposed to prove something :lol

Really? We're talking about player efficiency, defensive schemes, pace, scoring ability... and you bring up some useless stat that gives precedence to ft shooting? Word? OK, let's look at some other advanced metrics...


you are arguing the difference of .4% witch is basically 1 more missd shot...but you don't believe in FT% :lol




Jordan Player Efficiency Rating: 27.91 (all time leader) peak of 31.7 (#3 all time), led the league 7X
Kobe Player Efficiency Rating: 23.4 (20th all time), peak of peak of 28 (#56 all time)


Jordan Offensive Rating: Career 118, peak of 125
Kobe Offensive Rating: Career 111, peak of 115

Jordan eFG%: .509%, peak of .547%
Kobe eFG%: .487%, peak of .504%

Jordan Offensive Win Shares: 149.9 Led the league 8X, Finished 2nd 3X
Kobe Offensive Win Shares: 123.4

Jordan USG%: 33.3 (#1 All time)
Kobe USG%: 31.8 (#4 All time)

Why is it that the Bean stans never use these other advanced efficiency/offensive metrics? They always seem to focus in on th one that takes f*cking FT shooting into account :oldlol:

so yeah, both guys played the same position, for the same coaches, in the same system, playing relatively the same pace, even had very similar usage rates... but the results are clearly not the same.


and just like Clockwork you are getting beat in every aspect possible so here comes the "Per"...everyone wants to replicate Bill James Moneyball...it doesn't work like that especially uin Basketball.

where do we start with the failures of so much advanced Math...does it account for a players defense?..creating passing lanes?.....Per doesn't

Per Focus's so much on made / misses that it leaves out Kareem , Magic , Larry bird and Kobe of the top 10.

But Chris Paul , Bob Pettit , Niel Johnston and Dwade are?

It has some serious flaws ( as do most advanced stats)...although I never watched Bob Pettit or Niel...I know for a fact Magic , Kobe and Bird were all better then Chris Paul and Wade...

I know you are using as a last ditch effort to prop up MJ...( and again..no one is saying anything bad about Jordan)....but it makes you look desperate.


kinda sad really......no one saying MJ couldn't dominate in the modern era




The fact that we're even having this discussion in 2014 is ridiculous. But I am enjoying laughing my ass off in this thread. Keep doing what you're doing :cheers:


1.2% difference




If all the Jordan stans got is 1.2% difference... and fantasy stats like Per that have Chris Paul and DWade as better then 3 of the 4 Mt Rushmore's....

you guys are n trouble.













(pounds chest)...next

[AlphaWolf24]

If you guys were as good at actually making any logical arguments as you are at posting nonsensical pictures, cheerleading and prematurely calling your shots I would have been off these boards a long time ago.

:roll:

I'm looking for any evidence that "Bean's numbers are not impacted at all by DRATING" or the same for Jordan. I hope you realize this doesn't mean just cherry picking series here and there but thats probably giving you too much credit.

:lol

Don seems at least to be trying to make some points...I will give him that...( desperate as they may be....at least his strawman was funny)

but WTF is up with all these Ghost posters who show Beta female behavior....

not even posting anything but ..."Hurah!..Hurah!..MJ shot 1.2% higher"...." GOOO..Team MJ!!"

seriously...If you gonna cheerlead....make it original and funny....

and use yo real account. ( damn Ghost posters)






on another note...speaking of Ghost's




Harold Ramis RIP

http://31.media.tumblr.com/f666cd45ef9ba9a83a76a9661c29ac2e/tumblr_n1j2taVd611qaqmkyo1_500.gif

[moe94]

(pounds chest)...next

Why?

[aboss4real24]

http://i44.tinypic.com/2zojbyc.gif

[OldSchoolBBall]

If by "peak" you mean 1-4 games, then I guess it's Kobe. If you mean anything more than 6ish games, it's Jordan.

[moe94]

http://i44.tinypic.com/2zojbyc.gif
:roll: