Interesting Dirk vs Kobe numbers

[DMAVS41]

Regular season numbers from 01 through 13

Kobe 28/6/5 on 45/34/84 shooting

Dirk 24/9/3 on 48/39/88 shooting

Advanced;

Kobe 24.3 PER 55.7% TS 48.8%EFG 112 ORTG 105 DRTG .190 WS/48

Dirk 24.2 PER 58.4% TS 51.3% EFG 118 ORTG 103 DRTG .220 WS/48


Playoffs 00 to present

Kobe 28/5/5 on 45/34/82 shooting

Dirk 26/10/3 on 46/38/89 shooting

Advanced;

Kobe 23.0 PER 54.3% TS 48.2% EFG 110 ORTG 106 DRTG .166 WS/48

Dirk 24.7 PER 58.4% TS 49.3% EFG 118 ORTG 107 DRTG .205 WS/48


Other Numbers

Game Winners (since 01 so missing some stuff)...Got from another site.

Kobe 29.8%
Dirk 37.8%

Clutch shooting (5 minutes or less left game within 5 points)

Kobe 39.9%
Dirk 41.7%

A few notes. Kobe takes a lot more threes so his efg% might actually be better. Probably very close either way. Kobe also scores more so his volume is more impressive. However, this is missing Dirk's free throw shooting which adds a great deal to his efficiency.

Also, the above includes playoffs and regular season. Kobe's clutch play in the playoffs has been better than Dirk's. Contrary to that, Kobe has performed poorly on playoff game winners compared to Dirk.

[Vienceslav]

I thought it was head to head, but as it is not, I don't see how's that interesting.
gotta practice my past tense forms...

[secund2nun]

Dirk is better than Kobe, but he will never get the credit for being better than Kobe. Hype machines are powerful.

[ImKobe]

Kobe: 5

Dirk: 1

[MavsSuperFan]

Kobe: 5

Dirk: 1
3 shaq rings doe

kobe 2
dirk 1

[ImKobe]

Dirk is better than Kobe, but he will never get the credit for being better than Kobe. Hype machines are powerful.

Kobe: 62

Western Conference champions with prime Dirk: 61

Dirk never even averaged 27 ppg for an entire season, meh.

[ImKobe]

3 shaq rings doe

kobe 2
dirk 1

Kobe without Shaq: 2 rings 2 FMVPs
Shaq without Kobe: 1 ring 0 FMVPs

[Cone]

kobe w/o a stacked team is another allen iverson. score all the points, but he wouldnt win jack shit.

if dirk got drafted by a franchise with multiple HoFs like Kobe did, then it would be the complete opposite

[moe94]

3 shaq rings doe

kobe 2
dirk 1

2 best frontcourt rings doe

dirk 1
kobe 0

[ImKobe]

NBA Championships and Seasons
NBA Championships
Kobe Bryant 5
Dirk Nowitzki 1
NBA Seasons
Kobe Bryant 18
Dirk Nowitzki 16
Playoffs Played
Kobe Bryant 15
Dirk Nowitzki 12
All-Star Games
Kobe Bryant 16
Dirk Nowitzki 12
Honors and Awards
Season MVP
Kobe Bryant 1
Dirk Nowitzki 1
Finals MVP
Kobe Bryant 2
Dirk Nowitzki 1
All-NBA First Team
Kobe Bryant 11
Dirk Nowitzki 4
All-NBA Teams
(Total Selections)
Kobe Bryant 15
Dirk Nowitzki 12
All-Defensive First Team
Kobe Bryant 9
Dirk Nowitzki 0
All-Defensive Teams
(Total Selections)
Kobe Bryant 12
Dirk Nowitzki 0
Scoring Leader
Kobe Bryant 2
Dirk Nowitzki 0

NBA Regular Season Stats
Stats Per Game
Points Per Game
Kobe Bryant 25.5
Dirk Nowitzki 22.6

Rebounds Per Game
Kobe Bryant 5.3
Dirk Nowitzki 8.1

Assists Per Game
Kobe Bryant 4.8
Dirk Nowitzki 2.6

Steals Per Game
Kobe Bryant 1.5
Dirk Nowitzki 0.9

Blocks Per Game
Kobe Bryant 0.5
Dirk Nowitzki 0.9

Totals Stats
Total Points
Kobe Bryant 31,700
Dirk Nowitzki 26,298

Total Rebounds
Kobe Bryant 6,601
Dirk Nowitzki 9,444

Total Assists
Kobe Bryant 5,925
Dirk Nowitzki 3,088

Total Steals
Kobe Bryant 1,835
Dirk Nowitzki 1,018

Total Blocks
Kobe Bryant 620
Dirk Nowitzki 1,083

Total Games
Kobe Bryant 1,245
Dirk Nowitzki 1,166

Percentages
Field Goal Percentage
Kobe Bryant .454
Dirk Nowitzki .476

3-Point Percentage
Kobe Bryant .335
Dirk Nowitzki .382

Free Throw Percentage
Kobe Bryant .838
Dirk Nowitzki .879

NBA Playoffs Stats
Stats Per Game
Points Per Game
Kobe Bryant 25.6
Dirk Nowitzki 25.9

Rebounds Per Game
Kobe Bryant 5.1
Dirk Nowitzki 10.3

Assists Per Game
Kobe Bryant 4.7
Dirk Nowitzki 2.6

Steals Per Game
Kobe Bryant 1.4
Dirk Nowitzki 1.1

Blocks Per Game
Kobe Bryant 0.7
Dirk Nowitzki 0.9

Totals Stats
Total Points
Kobe Bryant 5,640
Dirk Nowitzki 3,321

Total Rebounds
Kobe Bryant 1,119
Dirk Nowitzki 1,314

Total Assists
Kobe Bryant 1,040
Dirk Nowitzki 329

Total Steals
Kobe Bryant 310
Dirk Nowitzki 139

Total Blocks
Kobe Bryant 144
Dirk Nowitzki 118

Total Games
Kobe Bryant 220
Dirk Nowitzki 128

Percentages
Field Goal Percentage
Kobe Bryant .448
Dirk Nowitzki .463

3-Point Percentage
Kobe Bryant .331
Dirk Nowitzki .380

Free Throw Percentage
Kobe Bryant .816
Dirk Nowitzki .893



http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/kobe_bryant_vs_dirk_nowitzki.htm

[DMAVS41]

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/kobe_bryant_vs_dirk_nowitzki.htm

I wasn't posting it to say Dirk is better really...just thought the averages were interesting...especially as I actually cut off 3 to 4 years of Kobe's career...and this year

the career averages are even closer that you posted

[LAZERUSS]

Regular season numbers from 01 through 13

Kobe 28/6/5 on 45/34/84 shooting

Dirk 24/9/3 on 48/39/88 shooting

Advanced;

Kobe 24.3 PER 55.7% TS 48.8%EFG 112 ORTG 105 DRTG .190 WS/48

Dirk 24.2 PER 58.4% TS 51.3% EFG 118 ORTG 103 DRTG .220 WS/48


Playoffs 00 to present

Kobe 28/5/5 on 45/34/82 shooting

Dirk 26/10/3 on 46/38/89 shooting

Advanced;

Kobe 23.0 PER 54.3% TS 48.2% EFG 110 ORTG 106 DRTG .166 WS/48

Dirk 24.7 PER 58.4% TS 49.3% EFG 118 ORTG 107 DRTG .205 WS/48


Other Numbers

Game Winners (since 01 so missing some stuff)...Got from another site.

Kobe 29.8%
Dirk 37.8%

Clutch shooting (5 minutes or less left game within 5 points)

Kobe 39.9%
Dirk 41.7%

A few notes. Kobe takes a lot more threes so his efg% might actually be better. Probably very close either way. Kobe also scores more so his volume is more impressive. However, this is missing Dirk's free throw shooting which adds a great deal to his efficiency.

Also, the above includes playoffs and regular season. Kobe's clutch play in the playoffs has been better than Dirk's. Contrary to that, Kobe has performed poorly on playoff game winners compared to Dirk.

I actually think a better post-season comparison would be Dirk with Bird.

A lot closer than most fans would like to believe.

[ArbitraryWater]

Dirk a better playoff performer than Kobe&Bird. Dig that.


DMAVS my man go include them elimination game/game 7 stats in there...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=227443

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=229616

[DMAVS41]

I actually think a better post-season comparison would be Dirk with Bird.

A lot closer than most fans would like to believe.

The numbers would be very close, maybe even favoring Dirk, but Bird was just an all around player in a way that Dirk can't compete with.

I totally agree with you that it's closer than people give credit for, but Bird was just on another level in my opinion.

While I rate Kobe over Dirk all time for career rankings...I do think Dirk is closer to Kobe as a player than he is too Bird in overall impact. I just wish we had been able to see Dirk play on truly stacked teams like Kobe and Bird had throughout their careers. I really think Dirk would have thrived on teams where he didn't have to carry so much of the burden.

I think we got a glimpse of that with pre peak Dirk in 03. Had a 25/10/3 regular season and a 25/12/2 playoffs (before getting hurt in the WCF) on a loaded (offensively at least) roster.

I just think he would have been able to complement just about any other star players extremely well.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk a better playoff performer than Kobe&Bird. Dig that.


DMAVS my man go include them elimination game/game 7 stats in there...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=227443

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=229616

I tried to include some newer stuff like the career clutch shooting and career (at least since 01) game winner stuff.

No need to beat the dead horse of Dirk's all time great elimination and game 7 play compared to Kobe's struggles in similar games.

[Akrazotile]

Dirk is better than Kobe, but he will never get the credit for being better than Kobe. Hype machines are powerful.


This

[ArbitraryWater]

I tried to include some newer stuff like the career clutch shooting and career (at least since 01) game winner stuff.

No need to beat the dead horse of Dirk's all time great elimination and game 7 play compared to Kobe's struggles in similar games.

:lol Well at least we would have everything in one place then

[AnaheimLakers24]

http://www.sportsgrindent.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/kobebryant2.jpg

[ArbitraryWater]

http://www.sportsgrindent.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/kobebryant2.jpg

Compelling Argument.

[SexSymbol]

Five is an interesting number too. You're such a statnerd, it's sad that you can't appreciate basketball in it's real form. I bet you follow the boxscore even if you're watching the game :D

[ImKobe]

Five is an interesting number too. You're such a statnerd, it's sad that you can't appreciate basketball in it's real form. I bet you follow the boxscore even if you're watching the game :D

That's what a lot of fans do. Having a live box score open in another tab while watching the game is what I always do.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Dirk a better playoff performer than Kobe&Bird. Dig that.


DMAVS my man go include them elimination game/game 7 stats in there...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=227443

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=229616
No he isn't.

Kobe 2001-2013 Playoffs

28.5 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 5.2 apg, 1.5 bpg, 0.5 bpg, 3.2 tpg, 45.1 FG%, 33.4 3P%, 82.5 FT%, 54.6 TS%, 48.4 eFG%

4 Championships
6 Finals

[secund2nun]

Kobe: 62

Western Conference champions with prime Dirk: 61

Dirk never even averaged 27 ppg for an entire season, meh.

Looking at raw volume of points per game in determining who is better is useless.

Dirk destroys Mr. First round loser Kobe Bryant.

[secund2nun]

Kobe without Shaq: 2 rings 2 FMVPs
Shaq without Kobe: 1 ring 0 FMVPs

Kobe without an elite front court to carry him= 2 7th seeds, 1 missed playoffs, 0 playoff series victories.....all in his prime. Enough said.

Those FMVP belong to Gasol as well. Gasol outperformed Kobe in both of those finals. Kobe got it based on hype.

His regular season MVP was hype as well. Prime Kobe fails to even win a single playoff series in 3 straight years after Shaq because he did not have an elite front court to carry him, then Gasol joins and they win the WCF the very same season yet Kobe wins regular season MVP :roll:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Bird 81-87 Playoffs

24.8 ppg, 10.9 rpg, 6.5 apg, 1.9 spg, 0.9 bpg, 3.2 tpg, 48.0 FG%, 35.7 3P%, 89.2 FT%

3 Championships
5 Finals

[SexSymbol]

Kobe without an elite front court to carry him= 2 7th seeds, 1 missed playoffs, 0 playoff series victories.....all in his prime. Enough said.

Those FMVP belong to Gasol as well. Gasol outperformed Kobe in both of those finals. Kobe got it based on hype.

His regular season MVP was hype as well. Prime Kobe fails to even win a single playoff series in 3 straight years after Shaq because he did not have an elite front court to carry him, then Gasol joins and they win the WCF the very same season yet Kobe wins regular season MVP :roll:
What's the point of doing this since 2010?
Trying to reach Euroleague's level of being pathetic or what

[secund2nun]

kobe w/o a stacked team is another allen iverson. score all the points, but he wouldnt win jack shit.

if dirk got drafted by a franchise with multiple HoFs like Kobe did, then it would be the complete opposite

Yep. Replace Kobe with Dirk and Dirk has 8 rings.

[secund2nun]

What's the point of doing this since 2010?
Trying to reach Euroleague's level of being pathetic or what

Trying to expose the overratedness of Kobe. I talk about others stuff as well unlike Euroleague, but when the topic of Kobe comes up I must expose him for the first round loser he is.

[Heavincent]

Secund2nun is the same retard that thinks he's funny because he put mulch in front of the holes at the mini golf course.

He's a prankster!

[secund2nun]

Secund2nun is the same retard that thinks he's funny because he put mulch in front of the holes at the mini golf course.

He's a prankster!

Nope the facts/results are no prank. People don't like hearing the truth when it opposes the artificial sphere the media has created for their minds about Kobe being a GOAT type player.

A good book to write would be called "the Kobe delusion."

[SexSymbol]

Trying to expose the overratedness of Kobe. I talk about others stuff as well unlike Euroleague, but when the topic of Kobe comes up I must expose him for the first round loser he is.
How salty can you get, nikka.
Did he **** your mother or something.
This type of MAD can't come from nothing.

[Heavincent]

A good book to write would be called "the Kobe delusion."

Considering your mini golf story, I don't think that book would sell very well. Writing doesn't seem like your forte.

[DMAVS41]

No he isn't.

Kobe 2001-2013 Playoffs

28.5 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 5.2 apg, 1.5 bpg, 0.5 bpg, 3.2 tpg, 45.1 FG%, 33.4 3P%, 82.5 FT%, 54.6 TS%, 48.4 eFG%

4 Championships
6 Finals

Dirk's 26/11/3 58.4% TS is just as good as or better than the above.

It's the team success that is the difference.

[gts]

:lol Kobe's barely played a game all year and he still has you flamethrowers feeling insecure...

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Dirk is a 7 foot defensive liability and has been for the majority of his career. One fluke run doesn't erase that.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk is a 7 foot defensive liability and has been for the majority of his career. One fluke run doesn't erase that.

Yet his teams routinely get better on defense with him on the floor...and in his prime was a beast on the defensive glass.


Your statement could be thrown back at you...even though neither would be true.

Kobe is a selfish and egomaniac chucker and has been for the majority of his career. Lucking out to play on loaded rosters coached by the GOAT coach doesn't erase that.

:rockon:

But back to your statement...certainly early on in Dirk's career his defense was lacking, but that was a product of being a fish out of water his first year and playing Nellie ball (no defense) for a few years as well.

Despite that though...

Dirk's teams defensive rating with him on the floor for his career is 104.8...and then 106.8 without him. So his teams actually have gotten 2 points worse defensively without him for his career.

Kobe's teams have a defensive rating 105.6 with him on the floor...and 105.5 without him.

I don't put a ton of stock into the above for specific things...but in a broad sense...you can't be a huge liability on defense while playing without much defensive help and actually improve the defense when you play. That combined with his respectable 104.8 makes it even harder to come to that conclusion. That just doesn't make much sense.

The truth is that non rim protector defenders at the star level usually don't have a big impact on defense.

Kobe is definitely a better defender than Dirk, but I wonder what the true impact of that is...I don't see Kobe truly doing anything defensively (especially after 03) that you could call game changing or something.

[Fire Colangelo]

Dirk is a 7 foot defensive liability and has been for the majority of his career. One fluke run doesn't erase that.

Dirk has never been a defensive liability. He's not great, but a decent man defender and help defender whose rebounding #s got better in the playoffs. Those Mavs teams were always decent defensively with no decent center in the middle.

To say dirk is a defensive liability is just :facepalm

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Dirk has never been a defensive liability. He's not great, but a decent man defender and help defender whose rebounding #s got better in the playoffs. Those Mavs teams were always decent defensively with no decent center in the middle.

To say dirk is a defensive liability is just :facepalm

Tyson Chandler wasn't a decent center. :biggums:

[Smoke117]

Who cares? You must have been experiencing an episode of massive boredom to start contemplating that this might be interesting.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Yet his teams routinely get better on defense with him on the floor...and in his prime was a beast on the defensive glass.


Your statement could be thrown back at you...even though neither would be true.

Kobe is a selfish and egomaniac chucker and has been for the majority of his career. Lucking out to play on loaded rosters coached by the GOAT coach doesn't erase that.

:rockon:

But back to your statement...certainly early on in Dirk's career his defense was lacking, but that was a product of being a fish out of water his first year and playing Nellie ball (no defense) for a few years as well.

Despite that though...

Dirk's teams defensive rating with him on the floor for his career is 104.8...and then 106.8 without him. So his teams actually have gotten 2 points worse defensively without him for his career.

Kobe's teams have a defensive rating 105.6 with him on the floor...and 105.5 without him.

I don't put a ton of stock into the above for specific things...but in a broad sense...you can't be a huge liability on defense while playing without much defensive help and actually improve the defense when you play. That combined with his respectable 104.8 makes it even harder to come to that conclusion. That just doesn't make much sense.

The truth is that non rim protector defenders at the star level usually don't have a big impact on defense.

Kobe is definitely a better defender than Dirk, but I wonder what the true impact of that is...I don't see Kobe truly doing anything defensively (especially after 03) that you could call game changing or something.

Hint going from bad to worse doesn't mean you are good..

The true impact of that was winning 5 championships. When is the last time you remember a SG having a great playoff series against the Lakers? Do you think thats just a huge coincidence?

[AnaheimLakers24]

http://i.imgur.com/1oFKlOz.gif

[Yao Ming's Foot]

2010

Ray Allen 37%
Jason Richardson 48%
Wes Mathews 39%
James Harden 39%

2009

Courtney Lee 38%
JR Smith 39%
Ron Artest 38%
Ronnie Brewer 41%


Where is DAT impact though?!?

[Heavincent]

2010

Ray Allen 37%
Jason Richardson 48%
Wes Mathews 39%
James Harden 39%

2009

Courtney Lee 38%
JR Smith 39%
Ron Artest 38%
Ronnie Brewer 41%


Where is DAT impact though?!?

You should mention Westbrook for 2010. Kobe guarded him in the last 3 games of the series if I remember correctly. Westbrook shot 39% in those games.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You should mention Westbrook for 2010. Kobe guarded him in the last 3 games of the series if I remember correctly. Westbrook shot 39% in those games.

I would but that would be too nuanced to point out. The coaches just give him perennial all defensive teams awards for shits and giggles. The real key to measure defensive impact is to focus completely only only how the Lakers defense played the scattered minutes he was on the bench in the playoffs half of which were probably in garbage time.

[Fire Colangelo]

Tyson Chandler wasn't a decent center. :biggums:

And the only year he had a decent center, he won. What's your point? What about the 12 other years? Eric Dampier?


2010

Ray Allen 37%
Jason Richardson 48%
Wes Mathews 39%
James Harden 39%

2009

Courtney Lee 38%
JR Smith 39%
Ron Artest 38%
Ronnie Brewer 41%


Where is DAT impact though?!?

lol.

2000 finals

34 year old Reggie Miller: 24/3/4 on 41%
21 year old Kobe: 16/5/4 on 37%

Penny and the Suns had a decent series against the Lakers as well. It was pretty even, too lazy to post stats.

2001 finals

Iverson: 36/6/4 on 41%
Kobe: 25/8/6 on 41%

2004 finals

Rip: 21/5/4 on 40%
Kobe: 23/3/4 on 38%

2008 finals

Ray: 20/5/3 on 51%
Kobe: 26/5/5 on 40%

2011

Kobe: 23/3/2 on 46%
Terry: 20/2/4 on 59% :lol

i can cherry pick too.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

And the only year he had a decent center, he won. What's your point? What about the 12 other years? Eric Dampier?


What's my point? That in order to win they needed a DPOY candidate and all defensive team center to compensate for Dirk's natural limited defensive ability.

Its cherry picking to list every SG Kobe faced from the last two championship runs (post 03)?

You are not very good at cherry picking yourself if 3 out of the 5 times he held opposing guards under 41%. :confusedshrug:

[Fire Colangelo]

What's my point? That in order to win they needed a DPOY candidate and all defensive team center to compensate for Dirk's natural limited defensive ability.

Its cherry picking to list every SG Kobe faced from the last two championship runs (post 03)?

You are not very good at cherry picking yourself if 3 out of the 5 times he held opposing guards under 41%. :confusedshrug:

What about the other 12 years of winning 50+ games? 2006 when they went to the finals? Dirk was never a liability defensively.

Bro, all your list says is that Kobe have faced some scrubby SGs in his career. Injured Ray Allen (prime ray 2 years ago lit him up in the finals), Wesley Matthews who was a nobody, young James harden, Courtney lee :lol

I listed all the SGs that had a better series than Kobe in the playoffs (and trust me when I say Kobe hasn't faced many good SGs in the playoffs), there are lots more that shot above .400. Are you gonna ignore the fact Terry went off against Kobe? Ray back in 08 as well? Hamilton held Kobe to 38%, he's a good defender I guess.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What about the other 12 years of winning 50+ games? 2006 when they went to the finals? Dirk was never a liability defensively.

Bro, all your list says is that Kobe have faced some scrubby SGs in his career. Injured Ray Allen (prime ray 2 years ago lit him up in the finals), Wesley Matthews who was a nobody, young James harden, Courtney lee :lol

I listed all the SGs that had a better series than Kobe in the playoffs (and trust me when I say Kobe hasn't faced many good SGs in the playoffs), there are lots more that shot above .400. Are you gonna ignore the fact Terry went off against Kobe? Ray back in 08 as well?

What about them? The Mavs flamed out precisely because they couldn't compete defensively in the playoffs. The 06 Mavs were statistically the worse defense to make the Finals probably in the last 20 years. That's why Wade got a FT every time he touched the ball.

Kobe can't face himself and frankly he actually guarded Rondo (38%FG) more than Ray in 08. But good job on Jason Terry for finally managing to do something. That obviously trumps the 10+ playoff series that preceded it.

[DMAVS41]

What's my point? That in order to win they needed a DPOY candidate and all defensive team center to compensate for Dirk's natural limited defensive ability.

Its cherry picking to list every SG Kobe faced from the last two championship runs (post 03)?

You are not very good at cherry picking yourself if 3 out of the 5 times he held opposing guards under 41%. :confusedshrug:

Well, they made the finals and upset the favored Spurs in 06 without a good center.

They also made the WCF in 03 and were 50/50 to win it all before Dirk got hurt...with no center.

Also, is a Kobe fan really using the "help" card against Dirk? Every time Kobe has won it...he's had a player at least twice as good on his team as Tyson Chandler.

WTF????

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Well, they made the finals and upset the favored Spurs in 06 without a good center.

They also made the WCF in 03 and were 50/50 to win it all before Dirk got hurt...with no center.

Also, is a Kobe fan really using the "help" card against Dirk? Every time Kobe has won it...he's had a player at least twice as good on his team as Tyson Chandler.

WTF????

No Kobe has never had a player twice as good defensively as Tyson Chandler.

Great defensive job on Duncan btw.....32 ppg 56%FG :facepalm:

[DMAVS41]

No Kobe has never had a player twice as good defensively as Tyson Chandler.

I said twice as good overall.

Dude...you can't play the "help" card. It's absurd. Kobe's help has been far greater than Dirk's...

It's just stupid.

And no, the Mavs don't need a center to compensate for Dirk's deficiencies...they just needed a decent center.

I mean...we had the pretty decent defenses and success from 05 through 07 and didn't get great center play.

Needing a 8/9 solid defensive center is not noteworthy. Tyson Chandler was about as good as Lamar Odom. LOL

ROFL...Tim Duncan is Tim Duncan...not the scrubs you are mentioning...LOL

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I said twice as good overall.

Dude...you can't play the "help" card. It's absurd. Kobe's help has been far greater than Dirk's...

It's just stupid.

And no, the Mavs don't need a center to compensate for Dirk's deficiencies...they just needed a decent center.

I mean...we had the pretty decent defenses and success from 05 through 07 and didn't get great center play.

Needing a 8/9 solid defensive center is not noteworthy. Tyson Chandler was about as good as Lamar Odom. LOL

Who said anything about overall help? I've been talking about defense the entire time. Why you decided to argue against a point I never made is beyond me.

:biggums:

2010-11 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2011-12 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2012-13 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2011-12 NBA Defensive Player of the Year

[Fire Colangelo]

What about them? The Mavs flamed out precisely because they couldn't compete defensively in the playoffs. The 06 Mavs were statistically the worse defense to make the Finals probably in the last 20 years. That's why Wade got a FT every time he touched the ball.

Kobe can't face himself and frankly he actually guarded Rondo (38%FG) more than Ray in 08. But good job on Jason Terry for finally managing to do something. That obviously trumps the 10+ playoff series that preceded it.

:applause: kobe held a 2nd year player playing his his first finals to 9/4/7 on 38% shooting.

Rondo's shooting in 08 wasn't gonna win Celtics the series, he wouldn't have went for 30/10/10 if kobe wasn't guarding him. In fact, kobe guarding rondo instead of Allen should indicate how flawed Kobe is defensively.

[DMAVS41]

Who said anything about overall help? I've been talking about defense the entire time. Why you decided to argue against a point I never made is beyond me.

:biggums:

2010-11 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2011-12 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2012-13 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2011-12 NBA Defensive Player of the Year

Because the Mavs weren't great defensively you moron. We had the 8th best defense. We've had better defenses and similar defenses without Chandler or a center as good defensively.

So how did the 07 Mavs finish with the 5th best defense? How were we 9th in 03? 9th in 05? 9th in 08? 8th in 12?

My god...this myth that the 11 Mavs were some great defensive team really needs to stop. We had the 8th best defense in the regular season and playoffs.

Chandler leaves...and the defense doesn't drop off at all...LOL

But it's all Chandler. Yep..dat ISH logic

[DMAVS41]

What's my point? That in order to win they needed a DPOY candidate and all defensive team center to compensate for Dirk's natural limited defensive ability.

Its cherry picking to list every SG Kobe faced from the last two championship runs (post 03)?

You are not very good at cherry picking yourself if 3 out of the 5 times he held opposing guards under 41%. :confusedshrug:

That is like saying the Lakers needed a 20/10 big to compensate for Kobe's limited ability.

So now we need Dirk to win without a star teammate and a decent defensive center?

Why is Dirk expected to do so much with so little?

[Fire Colangelo]

Who said anything about overall help? I've been talking about defense the entire time. Why you decided to argue against a point I never made is beyond me.

:biggums:

2010-11 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2011-12 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2012-13 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2011-12 NBA Defensive Player of the Year

Chandler was there for a year. Mavs had the 12th best defense in 10, and the 8th best in 11 when they got Chandler. Hardly a big difference.

Not to mention the Mavericks were a very good defensive team before Chandler got there under Avery Johnson back in 06, 07, and 08.

The Lakers were terrible defensively in 06, 07, ranking 15th and 24th, and they turned into a good defensive squad after Gasol got there in 08 (5th best in 08, 6th best in 09, 4th best in 10, 6th best in 11). That alone indicates how valuable Gasol was to those Lakers teams.

[DMAVS41]

Chandler was there for a year.

The Mavericks were a very good defensive team before Chandler got there under Avery Johnson back in 06, 07, and 08.

The Lakers were terrible defensively in 06, 07, and they turned into a good defensive squad after Gasol got there in 08.

It's about the same thing as saying Kobe needed Ariza and Artest is 09 and 10 to make up for his natural deficiencies...

Which I'm fine with...LOL

[strifed169]

3 shaq rings doe

kobe 2
dirk 1

- 2 gasol rings

kobe 0
dirk 1

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Because the Mavs weren't great defensively you moron. We had the 8th best defense. We've had better defenses and similar defenses without Chandler or a center as good defensively.

So how did the 07 Mavs finish with the 5th best defense? How were we 9th in 03? 9th in 05? 9th in 08? 8th in 12?

My god...this myth that the 11 Mavs were some great defensive team really needs to stop. We had the 8th best defense in the regular season and playoffs.

Chandler leaves...and the defense doesn't drop off at all...LOL

But it's all Chandler. Yep..dat ISH logic

Yeah we can tell

Def Rtg: 106.5 (19th of 30)
Def Rtg: 108.3 (22nd of 30)

or are you talking about 2012 when Dirk was ranked near last next to Jason Terry in defensive rating within his own team.

[Fire Colangelo]

It's about the same thing as saying Kobe needed Ariza and Artest is 09 and 10 to make up for his natural deficiencies...

Which I'm fine with...LOL


His main argument for Kobe being a good defender is Kobe holding the likes of Courney Lee, Corey Brewer, injured Ray Allen to sub 40% shooting :oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Chandler was there for a year. Mavs had the 12th best defense in 10, and the 8th best in 11 when they got Chandler. Hardly a big difference.

Not to mention the Mavericks were a very good defensive team before Chandler got there under Avery Johnson back in 06, 07, and 08.

The Lakers were terrible defensively in 06, 07, ranking 15th and 24th, and they turned into a good defensive squad after Gasol got there in 08 (5th best in 08, 6th best in 09, 4th best in 10, 6th best in 11). That alone indicates how valuable Gasol was to those Lakers teams.

Somehow the comparisons get even worse from Lamar Odom = Tyson Chandler defensively to Pau Gasol= Tyson Chandler defensively. wow

:facepalm

[Yao Ming's Foot]

His main argument for Kobe being a good defender is Kobe holding the likes of Courney Lee, Corey Brewer, injured Ray Allen to sub 40% shooting :oldlol:

Yeah not the most all defensive team selections of all time for a guard.

[DMAVS41]

Yeah we can tell

Def Rtg: 106.5 (19th of 30)
Def Rtg: 108.3 (22nd of 30)

or are you talking about 2012 when Dirk was ranked near last next to Jason Terry in defensive rating within his own team.

What?

We have had years of having defenses roughly as good as the defense in 11...

Just own up to getting destroyed.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

It's about the same thing as saying Kobe needed Ariza and Artest is 09 and 10 to make up for his natural deficiencies...

Which I'm fine with...LOL

Yeah because we all remember those all defensive team awards that Ariza and Artest stacked up with the Lakers.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What?

We have had years of having defenses roughly as good as the defense in 11...

Just own up to getting destroyed.

How many of those years is Dirk posting a lower defensive rating than his highly paid Twin Tower sidekick?

[DMAVS41]

Somehow the comparisons get even worse from Lamar Odom = Tyson Chandler defensively to Pau Gasol= Tyson Chandler defensively. wow

:facepalm

prime Gasol is really under-rated defensively, but I still don't get the point


What about the same thing for Kobe and the Lakers? What role did the likes of Ariza and Artest fill?

Seems like you could make the exact same argument against Kobe...

[Yao Ming's Foot]

prime Gasol is really under-rated defensively, but I still don't get the point


What about the same thing for Kobe and the Lakers? What role did the likes of Ariza and Artest fill?

Seems like you could make the exact same argument against Kobe...

They were playing the Shawn Marion role just less impressively.

[DMAVS41]

How many of those years is Dirk posting a lower defensive rating than his highly paid Twin Tower sidekick?

Well, you clearly put a lot of stock into defensive rating. I don't really, but clearly you do.

Career defensive rating;

Dirk 104
Kobe 105

Career team defensive rating when on floor;

Dirk 104.8
Kobe 105.6

Uh oh....dat ether starting to creep in :lol

[DMAVS41]

They were playing the Shawn Marion role just less impressively.

And what about when we didn't have Marion or Chandler? LOL

[tpols]

Yea offensively dirk and kobe are close. Kobe is an elite defensive player in his prime so he's got a more well rounded game than dirk.

Dirk is underrated..Kobe was definitely better as year after year he was thought of as the better player.. but it was always close

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Well, you clearly put a lot of stock into defensive rating. I don't really, but clearly you do.

Career defensive rating;

Dirk 104
Kobe 105

Career team defensive rating when on floor;

Dirk 104.8
Kobe 105.6

Uh oh....dat ether starting to creep in :lol

Yeah because comparing defensive ratings of two players in the same season with the same team is equivalent to comparing career defensive ratings of player that never played together.

:facepalm

[DMAVS41]

Yeah because comparing defensive ratings of two players in the same season with the same team is equivalent to comparing career defensive ratings of player that never played together.

:facepalm

Dirk and Kobe played in the same league the same years...sorry, that shit doesn't fly

Again, just admit you got raped

Touting drtg and then say it's irrelevant....LOL

[Yao Ming's Foot]

And what about when we didn't have Marion or Chandler? LOL

This was happening..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kbn72J8ass4

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Dirk and Kobe played in the same league the same years...sorry, that shit doesn't fly

Again, just admit you got raped

Touting drtg and then say it's irrelevant....LOL

I got a few thousand posts on this forum if you can find me posting individual defensive rating outside of the context of comparing the defensive impact of two players on the same team within the same season I will be happy to.

[Fire Colangelo]

Somehow the comparisons get even worse from Lamar Odom = Tyson Chandler defensively to Pau Gasol= Tyson Chandler defensively. wow

:facepalm

Huh? I just compared the Mavs defense before Chandler got there to Lakers defense before Gasol got there to make a point about how underrated Gasol is. I never compared Odom to Chandler.


Yeah not the most all defensive team selections of all time for a guard.

Eye test, stats, advanced stats indicate that he did not deserve any after 2003. A couple belonged to Wade, and a few should've gone to Tony Allen/Thabo who were the premier perimeter defenders in the NBA.


K im not gonna get in Dirk vs Kobe defensively shit, but point is Kobe hasn't been great defensively since 03

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Eye test, stats, advanced stats indicate that he did not deserve any after 2003. A couple belonged to Wade, and a few should've gone to Tony Allen/Thabo who were the premier perimeter defenders in the NBA.


:rolleyes: No because the advanced stats you are referring to have never been used to select all defensive teams and never considered the fact that Wade missed a bunch of games, Allen is a part time player and Thabo is just some scrub role player who historically never get all defensive team recognition.

[DMAVS41]

This was happening..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kbn72J8ass4

what about the 03 run? the 06 run upsetting the Spurs? LOL

What was happening to Kobe without Gasol?

It's so stupid.

Your point has been destroyed. The Mavs have had like 5 defenses roughly as good as the 11 defense without Chandler...

And I'll ask again...if Dirk is so bad defensively, how do his teams get better with him on the court? Why have his teams with average defensive talent been able to be around top 10 or higher for years?

I mean...I like Chandler...and he definitely helped us a lot, but he didn't have the impact you wanted him to.

It's really more about just having another good player on the team. Like in 06...just give us a player as good as Chandler at any position and we win...doesn't have to be center.

Nor did it have to be an inept offensive center like Chandler...could just be a great center overall like Gasol.

Also, have you seen how dreadful Chandler has been since joining the Knicks? The team is in shambles...and Melo is playing his ass off. Chandler has been shit...he's been injured often and he's sucked ass in the playoffs the last 2 years. Now he's on a team that is worse with him out there that is going to miss the playoffs in the worst conference ever.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

what about the 03 run? the 06 run upsetting the Spurs? LOL

What was happening to Kobe without Gasol?

It's so stupid.

Your point has been destroyed. The Mavs have had like 5 defenses roughly as good as the 11 defense without Chandler...

And I'll ask again...if Dirk is so bad defensively, how do his teams get better with him on the court? Why have his teams with average defensive talent been able to be around top 10 or higher for years?

I mean...I like Chandler...and he definitely helped us a lot, but he didn't have the impact you wanted him to.

It's really more about just having another good player on the team. Like in 06...just give us a player as good as Chandler at any position and we win...doesn't have to be center.

Nor did it have to be an inept offensive center like Chandler...could just be a great center overall like Gasol.

Also, have you seen how dreadful Chandler has been since joining the Knicks? The team is in shambles...and Melo is playing his ass off. Chandler has been shit...he's been injured often and he's sucked ass in the playoffs the last 2 years. Now he's on a team that is worse with him out there that is going to miss the playoffs in the worst conference ever.

Chandler joined the Knicks in 2012 and they went from the 22nd best defense to the 5th best defense earning him the defensive player of the year award. What more do you want?

:confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

Chandler joined the Knicks in 2012 and they went from the 22nd best defense to the 5th best defense earning him the defensive player of the year award. What more do you want?

:confusedshrug:

To average more than 6/9 on 44% shooting in the playoffs...

:confusedshrug:

Also, I find your logic to be struggling. You claim Chandler had this huge impact...and you use the Knicks as an example, but then shrug off the Mavs replacing him with Haywood and Mahinmi and not missing a beat.

Logically that doesn't add up. Can't look at 1 without the other.

But honestly...this is all a distraction. It's about a players' total impact. And Chandler overall impact was considerably less than Pau Gasol and was probably about as good as Lamar Odom from the lakers.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

To average more than 6/9 on 44% shooting in the playoffs...

:confusedshrug:

Because thats really relevant to what we are talking about. :biggums:

[Rocketswin2013]

http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/kobe_bryant_vs_dirk_nowitzki.htm
Lol holy shit that's closer than I thought. But yeah Kobe was better. He just was.

[Fire Colangelo]

:rolleyes: No because the advanced stats you are referring to have never been used to select all defensive teams and never considered the fact that Wade missed a bunch of games, Allen is a part time player and Thabo is just some scrub role player who historically never get all defensive team recognition.

Wade > Kobe defensively in 09, 10, and 11.


Chandler joined the Knicks in 2012 and they went from the 22nd best defense to the 5th best defense earning him the defensive player of the year award. What more do you want?

:confusedshrug:

The Knicks were terrible before Chandler got there, the Mavs were not. Mavs didn't even need him to play more than 28 minutes while the Knicks ran him down to the ground.

[DMAVS41]

Because thats really relevant to what we are talking about. :biggums:

It is because it's about overall impact. The way you are talking makes no sense on any level.

[catquickspider]

I wasn't posting it to say Dirk is better really...just thought the averages were interesting...especially as I actually cut off 3 to 4 years of Kobe's career...and this year

the career averages are even closer that you posted

Kobe had to share shots with Shaq from 01 to 04 then with Gasol from 08 to 12

Dude would have been putting up way more shots and his ppg would have been higher.

Dirk has had to carry the load most of his career aka green light.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

It is because it's about overall impact. The way you are talking makes no sense on any level.

Why do you think Cuban spent so much money to pair Dirk with one dimensional Centers for all of those years?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Wade > Kobe defensively in 09, 10, and 11.


That was quick we already shaved 6 years off off of this supposed injustice. So what exactly is this based on?

[Fire Colangelo]

Kobe had to share shots with Shaq from 01 to 04 then with Gasol from 08 to 12

Dude would have been putting up way more shots and his ppg would have been higher.

Dirk has had to carry the load most of his career aka green light.

:oldlol: wtf

Kobe always had more of a green light than dirk and you want to give him a green-er light to take more stupid shots?

[DMAVS41]

Why do you think Cuban spent so much money to pair Dirk with one dimensional Centers for all of those years?

So your point is that we targeted bad players? LOL

Great big men are hard to come by, as are great players...sadly, Dirk never had a great big man nor a truly great player...Nash was on his way in 03, but injuries derailed him until the 05 rules changes

And I still don't get the point. Pau Gasol and Shaq are a hell of a lot more rare than Tyson Chandler. And considerably better.

[DMAVS41]

Kobe had to share shots with Shaq from 01 to 04 then with Gasol from 08 to 12

Dude would have been putting up way more shots and his ppg would have been higher.

Dirk has had to carry the load most of his career aka green light.

What? Kobe shoots like 4 more times than Dirk already...LOL

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So your point is that we targeted bad players? LOL

Great big men are hard to come by, as are great players...sadly, Dirk never had a great big man nor a truly great player...Nash was on his way in 03, but injuries derailed him until the 05 rules changes

And I still don't get the point. Pau Gasol and Shaq are a hell of a lot more rare than Tyson Chandler. And considerably better.

No my point is by being a big man who doubles as a defensive liability your #1 priority is to get another big in there to actually defend if you want to win a title. Dirk and Pau Gasol would have been destroyed. Cuban knew which is why he spent so much cash hoping to find the right one. Eventually Tyson Chandler saved the day.

Look at the multiple title winning big men.... Russell, Kareem, Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq... notice how they are some of most dominant two way players of all time .

[DMAVS41]

No my point is by being a big man who doubles as a defensive liability your #1 priority is to get another big in there to actually defend if you want to win a title. Dirk and Pau Gasol would have been destroyed. Cuban knew which is why he spent so much cash hoping to find the right one. Eventually Tyson Chandler saved the day.

Look at the multiple title winning big men.... Russell, Kareem, Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq... notice how they are some of most dominant two way players of all time .

But Dirk isn't a defensive liability.

I totally agree that putting a good defensive next to Dirk is smart, but you go too far. Again...we've given you many examples of the defense being played very similarly with and without Chandler.

I also think you devalue the overall impact of a player. It isn't so much Chandler that it was just having another really good player. Imagine in 06 if we just had another really good player...it didn't have to be a center. We would have won.



But I still don't see any difference with Kobe. You have Kobe. And you have two gaping holes. You need to find him a 20/10 big that is above average defensively, again...a lot harder to find than a player nobody wanted in Chandler. And you need a perimeter defender that can guard the other teams scoring threat for most of the game as Kobe can't do that and carry the load offensively all that well. And you need more versatile players that can impact the game without the ball in their hands and defend and rebound well like and Odom.

So I'm really confused as to the point in relation to Kobe.

If your point is that Dirk isn't as good as Kareem, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem, and Duncan...well, no shit. That's ****ing obvious.

Again though...neither is Kobe.

[Fire Colangelo]

That was quick we already shaved 6 years off off of this supposed injustice. So what exactly is this based on?

Phil Jackson: "Kobe

[Yao Ming's Foot]

But Dirk isn't a defensive liability.

I totally agree that putting a good defensive next to Dirk is smart, but you go too far. Again...we've given you many examples of the defense being played very similarly with and without Chandler.

I also think you devalue the overall impact of a player. It isn't so much Chandler that it was just having another really good player. Imagine in 06 if we just had another really good player...it didn't have to be a center. We would have won.



But I still don't see any difference with Kobe. You have Kobe. And you have two gaping holes. You need to find him a 20/10 big that is above average defensively, again...a lot harder to find than a player nobody wanted in Chandler. And you need a perimeter defender that can guard the other teams scoring threat for most of the game as Kobe can't do that and carry the load offensively all that well. And you need more versatile players that can impact the game without the ball in their hands and defend and rebound well like and Odom.

So I'm really confused as to the point in relation to Kobe.

If your point is that Dirk isn't as good as Kareem, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem, and Duncan...well, no shit. That's ****ing obvious.

Again though...neither is Kobe.

It's way easier to build a championship level defense with two opening in the front court vs one. Not to mention that Kobe is an elite wing defender and it was so hard to find another wing to play with him that they spent a few million on Rick Fox, got Arixa as a throwaway and signed Artest for the midlevel and eventually amnestied him.

And this is being incredibly gracious to Dirk but at worst its equally as easy to build a championship level offense with Kobe as him.

That's the difference. That's the point.

[Fire Colangelo]

No my point is by being a big man who doubles as a defensive liability your #1 priority is to get another big in there to actually defend if you want to win a title. Dirk and Pau Gasol would have been destroyed. Cuban knew which is why he spent so much cash hoping to find the right one. Eventually Tyson Chandler saved the day.

Look at the multiple title winning big men.... Russell, Kareem, Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq... notice how they are some of most dominant two way players of all time .

First of all, Dirk isn't a defensive liability.

But lets go along with your theory.

A player of Tyson Chandler's caliber can easily be find (alas Roy Hibbert, Noah, Asik, etc), than the likes of Shaq and Pau Gasol.

Oh, and Dirk went to the finals with Eric Dampier as his starting center.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

[QUOTE=Fire Colangelo]Phil Jackson: "Kobe

[Yao Ming's Foot]

First of all, Dirk isn't a defensive liability.

But lets go along with your theory.

A player of Tyson Chandler's caliber can easily be find (alas Roy Hibbert, Noah, Asik, etc), than the likes of Shaq and Pau Gasol.

Oh, and Dirk went to the finals with Eric Dampier as his starting center.

If its so easy to find why the hell did Cuban pay them so much?!? Does Cuban perhaps the smartest businessman in the NBA not understand supply and demand?

[Quizno]

Kobe without an elite front court to carry him= 2 7th seeds, 1 missed playoffs, 0 playoff series victories.....all in his prime. Enough said.

Those FMVP belong to Gasol as well. Gasol outperformed Kobe in both of those finals. Kobe got it based on hype.


lebron without the most stacked team of all time = 0 rings, sweep in finals every time






this game is easy

[Fire Colangelo]

If its so easy to find why the hell did Cuban pay them so much?!? Does Cuban perhaps the smartest businessman in the NBA not understand supply and demand?

Cuban paid Dampier because he put up 12/12 in 04, he thought Dampier would become a good big man averaging maybe 15/10 next to Dirk. Clearly that shit went wrong.

Cuban then traded Dampier for Chandler in 2010, and didn't pay Chandler in 2011 off season. :confusedshrug: where are you getting the idea that Cuban signed Chandler?

[DMAVS41]

It's way easier to build a championship level defense with two opening in the front court vs one. Not to mention that Kobe is an elite wing defender and it was so hard to find another wing to play with him that they spent a few million on Rick Fox, got Arixa as a throwaway and signed Artest for the midlevel and eventually amnestied him.

And this is being incredibly gracious to Dirk but at worst its equally as easy to build a championship level offense with Kobe as him.

That's the difference. That's the point.

Again....this would be true if Dirk was as bad defensively as you claim. But he isn't.

Dont make me post the numbers of rapm for Kobe being the most over-rated defender basically ever. Kobe isn't an elite wing defender.

So your point is just wrong on many level.

1. Dirk isn't a defensive liability...all the evidence points to him positively impacting his teams defense

2. Kobe is not an elite defensive player...all the evidence points to him being slightly above average...and actually grades out worse than Dirk in the ratings you use often. Again look at that. You say it's easier to build a better defense around Kobe. Yet Dirk's teams have better defensive ratings with him on the court vs Kobe's teams...104.8 vs 105.6...and Dirk has a better individual defensive rating. So I don't get it...shouldn't Kobe's teams be better defensively with Kobe on the floor if it's so much easier to build around him?

3. Just no...finding Gasol/Odom/Ariza or Shaq is much harder than anything Dirk has had in his career. Maybe the 03 Mavs were similar to the 09-10 Lakers in terms of getting those players.

4. Also, you can't ignore how hard it is to play with Kobe for some players. Dirk has never had that problem. Take a guy like Noah...the perfect fit for Dirk in my opinion. Why? Besides the defense and rebounding, Noah is a great passer and playing with a superstar like Dirk would all how him to have the ball in his hands a lot...if he played with Kobe (like Rose)...it diminishes the impact he can have.

So you need that elite big for Kobe...combined with wing defense and versatile play. Basically Gasol/Bynum (yes in 10 when he actually was good in the playoffs)/Odom/Artest

That is not easier to get than a team of something like Chandler/Terry/Kidd/Marion...

It just isn't. Gasol is clearly the best player in that group by the way.

This whole building around thing is just more noise. It's about getting quality players. You put a player as good as Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom around Dirk in his prime...or give him Shaq with deep teams for 8 years...and the results are going to be very similar.

[DMAVS41]

If its so easy to find why the hell did Cuban pay them so much?!? Does Cuban perhaps the smartest businessman in the NBA not understand supply and demand?

Wait...so you think it's easier to get 09 and 10 Gasol than it is 2011 Tyson Chandler?

Seriously....are you ****ing high?

[Fire Colangelo]

Artest is a forward. Kobe a guard. They were not gunning for the same spots on the all defensive team. And how does that any of the above differ from Jordan post his first retirement who still racked up all defensive team awards despite Pippen (a much better defender than Artest at this stage) and Rodman taking the "tough" roles?

Point is, Kobe made it, Artest did not despite being a better defender.

When MJ was racking up all defensive team awards post retirement, Pippen and Rodman were also making it.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Again....this would be true if Dirk was as bad defensively as you claim. But he isn't.

Dont make me post the numbers of rapm for Kobe being the most over-rated defender basically ever. Kobe isn't an elite wing defender.

So your point is just wrong on many level.

1. Dirk isn't a defensive liability...all the evidence points to him positively impacting his teams defense

2. Kobe is not an elite defensive player...all the evidence points to him being slightly above average...and actually grades out worse than Dirk in the ratings you use often. Again look at that. You say it's easier to build a better defense around Kobe. Yet Dirk's teams have better defensive ratings with him on the court vs Kobe's teams...104.8 vs 105.6...and Dirk has a better individual defensive rating. So I don't get it...shouldn't Kobe's teams be better defensively with Kobe on the floor if it's so much easier to build around him?

3. Just no...finding Gasol/Odom/Ariza or Shaq is much harder than anything Dirk has had in his career. Maybe the 03 Mavs were similar to the 09-10 Lakers in terms of getting those players.

4. Also, you can't ignore how hard it is to play with Kobe for some players. Dirk has never had that problem. Take a guy like Noah...the perfect fit for Dirk in my opinion. Why? Besides the defense and rebounding, Noah is a great passer and playing with a superstar like Dirk would all how him to have the ball in his hands a lot...if he played with Kobe (like Rose)...it diminishes the impact he can have.

So you need that elite big for Kobe...combined with wing defense and versatile play. Basically Gasol/Bynum (yes in 10 when he actually was good in the playoffs)/Odom/Artest

That is not easier to get than a team of something like Chandler/Terry/Kidd/Marion...

It just isn't. Gasol is clearly the best player in that group by the way.

This whole building around thing is just more noise. It's about getting quality players. You put a player as good as Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom around Dirk in his prime...or give him Shaq with deep teams for 8 years...and the results are going to be very similar.

Yeah please post again. Its still good for a laugh. Doesn't it also have Magic as the "more impactful" defender than Jordan, Pippen and Rodman for an entire decade. Oh I forgot all these "advanced" stats only apply to Kobe.

1. This tells you nothing about his impact compared to an average PF.

2. Of course he is. "All the evidence" that you choose to rely on (only for Kobe of course) because it falls in line with your agenda. "All of the evidence" that the rest of the league values says otherwise.

3. Shaq is a legend. Pau Gasol was on the trading block for years and was traded for so little that people whined about it relentlessly. He's been on the trading block for the entire year and the Lakers can't even get a first rounder for him. Odom was so valuable that the Lakers gave him away to the Mavs for free. Rare hard to find pieces don't sit on the trading block for years and don't get given away to other teams for free.

4. This comment is simply baseless.

Kobe is the only player in league history to ring 5 times with just one other all star/HOF teammate per title team but I guess I'm just supposed to take your word for it that Dirk would have done the same with 0 supporting evidence.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Point is, Kobe made it, Artest did not despite being a better defender.

When MJ was racking up all defensive team awards post retirement, Pippen and Rodman were also making it.

So it's Kobe's fault that Ron Artest wasn't better than other forwards?

[Fire Colangelo]

So it's Kobe's fault that Ron Artest wasn't better than other forwards?

Just shows how meaningless this award is, and the fact you're using this award to label Kobe as an elite wing defender despite Phil Jackson himself pointing out Kobe's flaws.

[Doranku]

Again....this would be true if Dirk was as bad defensively as you claim. But he isn't.

Dont make me post the numbers of rapm for Kobe being the most over-rated defender basically ever. Kobe isn't an elite wing defender.

So your point is just wrong on many level.

1. Dirk isn't a defensive liability...all the evidence points to him positively impacting his teams defense

2. Kobe is not an elite defensive player...all the evidence points to him being slightly above average...and actually grades out worse than Dirk in the ratings you use often. Again look at that. You say it's easier to build a better defense around Kobe. Yet Dirk's teams have better defensive ratings with him on the court vs Kobe's teams...104.8 vs 105.6...and Dirk has a better individual defensive rating. So I don't get it...shouldn't Kobe's teams be better defensively with Kobe on the floor if it's so much easier to build around him?

3. Just no...finding Gasol/Odom/Ariza or Shaq is much harder than anything Dirk has had in his career. Maybe the 03 Mavs were similar to the 09-10 Lakers in terms of getting those players.

4. Also, you can't ignore how hard it is to play with Kobe for some players. Dirk has never had that problem. Take a guy like Noah...the perfect fit for Dirk in my opinion. Why? Besides the defense and rebounding, Noah is a great passer and playing with a superstar like Dirk would all how him to have the ball in his hands a lot...if he played with Kobe (like Rose)...it diminishes the impact he can have.

So you need that elite big for Kobe...combined with wing defense and versatile play. Basically Gasol/Bynum (yes in 10 when he actually was good in the playoffs)/Odom/Artest

That is not easier to get than a team of something like Chandler/Terry/Kidd/Marion...

It just isn't. Gasol is clearly the best player in that group by the way.

This whole building around thing is just more noise. It's about getting quality players. You put a player as good as Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom around Dirk in his prime...or give him Shaq with deep teams for 8 years...and the results are going to be very similar.

Some of the stuff you say man... :oldlol:

Why are you acting like Gasol/Odom/Ariza is some holy trinity of talent? Who in the top 25 hasn't played alongside a trio better than Gasol/Odom/Ariza? Gasol obviously was a legit second option, Odom was putting up like 11/10 during the '09 and '10 playoffs, and Ariza was a f*cking role player. Stop overrating them so much, damn.

And at your #4 point... just a complete joke. Who has had a "hard time" playing with Kobe? Shaq has had feuds with just about every team he's played on. Kobe/Gasol went to three straight finals/won two straight championships.

Like are you talking about the utter garbage he was playing with from '05-'07? Those guys had a hard time playing the game of basketball, they didn't have a hard time playing with Kobe.

For the record, Dirk is most certainly underrated in terms of his playoff performances and he and Kobe are close in that regard. But some of the points you make to back up that argument are ridiculous.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Just shows how meaningless this award is, and the fact you're using this award to label Kobe as an elite wing defender despite Phil Jackson himself pointing out Kobe's flaws.

He's the coach. He's supposed to point out flaws. Thats his job. He never voted for Kobe for the all defensive team.

[Fire Colangelo]

Some of the stuff you say man... :oldlol:

Why are you acting like Gasol/Odom/Ariza is some holy trinity of talent? Who in the top 25 hasn't played alongside a trio better than Gasol/Odom/Ariza? Gasol obviously was a legit second option, Odom was putting up like 11/10 during the '09 and '10 playoffs, and Ariza was a f*cking role player. Stop overrating them so much, damn.

And at your #4 point... just a complete joke. Who has had a "hard time" playing with Kobe? Shaq has had feuds with just about every team he's played on. Kobe/Gasol went to three straight finals/won two straight championships.

Like are you talking about the utter garbage he was playing with from '05-'07? Those guys had a hard time playing the game of basketball, they didn't have a hard time playing with Kobe.

For the record, Dirk is most certainly underrated in terms of his playoff performances and he and Kobe are close in that regard. But some of the points you make to back up that argument are ridiculous.

Gasol/Odom/Ariza (or Artest) IS some holy trinity of talent compared to Chandler, which was the point DMAVS was trying to make.

Bynum has openly complained about playing with Kobe, Dwight complained about Kobe, and like you said, so has Shaq. Given that those 3 are probably the whiniest bitches in the league I don't really give 2 shits about what they say but hey, I've never heard anyone complaining about Dirk.

[Fire Colangelo]

He's the coach. He's supposed to point out flaws. Thats his job. He never voted for Kobe for the all defensive team.

He never pointed out MJ's flaws. And when he did, he never took jabs at Jordan's all defensive selections like he did with Kobe's.

"No question, Michael was a tougher, more intimidating defender. He could break through virtually any screen and shut down almost any player with his intense, laser-focused style of defense," said Jackson, who coached Jordan to six championships and Bryant to five.

"Kobe has learned a lot from studying Michael's tricks, and we often used him as our secret weapon on defense when we needed to turn the direction of a game. In general, Kobe tends to rely more heavily on his flexibility and craftiness, but he takes a lot of gambles on defense and sometimes pays the price."

Why does he only point Kobe's defensive flaws? :confusedshrug:

[houston]

dirk better than kobe yea right:oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

He never pointed out MJ's flaws. And when he did, he never took jabs at Jordan's all defensive selections like he did with Kobe's.

"No question, Michael was a tougher, more intimidating defender. He could break through virtually any screen and shut down almost any player with his intense, laser-focused style of defense," said Jackson, who coached Jordan to six championships and Bryant to five.

"Kobe has learned a lot from studying Michael's tricks, and we often used him as our secret weapon on defense when we needed to turn the direction of a game. In general, Kobe tends to rely more heavily on his flexibility and craftiness, but he takes a lot of gambles on defense and sometimes pays the price."

Why does he only point Kobe's defensive flaws? :confusedshrug:


Because actions speak louder than words....


However, after that, he was a very overrated defender. He got old and lost a step and it showed. It happens to everybody, but Jordan's fans couldn't accept it. Let me give examples.

In 1995 and 96, Clyde Drexler and Anfernee Hardaway continued giving Jordan problems when they posted up on him. That is undertandable as they were bigger than Jordan. However, Jordan's lost a step on his quickness and in 1996, Pooh Richardson lit up Jordan...Pooh Richardson. Damon Stoudamire had his way with Jordan that year (Stoudamire's rookie season). While Stoudamire was very quick, Phil Jackson's answer to him spoke volumes about Jordan: Phil put Scottie Pippen on Stoudamire. Jordan was so slow that a 6'7" 225 lb FORWARD was Jackson's answer to a guard. Phil began opting to put Ron Harper on the other team's better offensive guard. Jordan fanatics claim this was "resting" Jordan for offense. No, this is called "rationalizing." Young Jordan guarded the other team's best guard AND lit up his opponents for 32+ PPG. Old Jordan simply could not guard the best guards any more (remember when he got caught in the switch with Allen Iverson the next year and how bad Iverson made him look?) .

What was truly sad was that Jordan continued making first team all-defense, but Ron Harper did not. Jordan wasn't even the best defensive guard on his own team any more. He didn't deserve those accolades.

http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/defense.htm

[SamuraiSWISH]

Jordan nearly blocked that shot, as admitted by Iverson. Jordan locked up Rod Strickland in the '97 playoffs, Grant Hill in the '98 regular season when he was torching Pippen. YMF exposed himself quoting "Air Judden.com" ... the insecurity runs deep. Pooh Richardson NEVER torched Jordan.

[Fire Colangelo]

Because actions speak louder than words....



http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/defense.htm


This is a pretty legit source.


Wilt Chamberlain, Oscar Robertson, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and Bill Russell all have a claim to being the best player ever. A good argument can be made for each and every one of them - depending on your criteria. However, Michael Jordan is NOT the best player ever, unless your criteria is endorsements and popularity

this is really legit :oldlol:



Recently, I saw the poster from jordon's Nike commercial where jordon admits his own foolishness. On the poster it says, "I have lost over 200 games in my career. Note, not "we", but "I". jordon, SINGLEHANDEDLY is responsiblefor OVER 200 losses. What a cancer! This is approximately 51% of the losses, which can be attributed soley to jordon! Just think, in 1996, jordon was singlehandedly responsible for about half of the 10 losses. That means that without jordon, the Bulls would have only lost 5 games. They would be 77-5. In 1984-85, the Bulls finished 38-44. I prove earlier that jordon is only worth 2 wins. jordon is also the cause of half the losses, so without jordon, the record would be 36-22 (or 51-31 over the course of an 82 game season). This proves that jordon is the single biggest loser in history!

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[QUOTE]Other than the fact that he is the greatest offensive player in history, and the only player to average 50 PPG and 40 PPG in a season? The fact that he is the greatest rebounder in history, and the only center to lead the league in assists? (This is something jordon could never DREAM of doing

[SamuraiSWISH]

Jordan getting crossed by a legend like Iverson, yet still almost blocking his shot is SO much worse than Kobe getting broken by Mexican nobody, Romel Beck in the 2007 FIBA games.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Jesus Christ Jordan mythologists are sensitive. You want credit for almost blocking a shot now. :oldlol:

Did Phil Jackson switch Harper or Pippen on elite wing scorers or not? It's a simple yes or no question. No need to get your panties in a bundle about it.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Did Phil Jackson switch Harper or Pippen on elite wing scorers or not? It's a simple yes or no question. No need to get your panties in a bundle about it.
Sometimes, yes. Why wouldn't they? Both were capable of being servicable, in Pippen's case dominant guarding elite perimeter players. But there was moments like this when MJ or Phil threw caution to the wind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKVP5ufkSqk

They needed Jordan's energies for carrying Chicago offensively. Similar to Kobe the past few years, only difference is MJ wasn't completely lazy off the ball like Kobe.

[KyleKong]

Kobe without Shaq: 2 rings 2 FMVPs
Shaq without Kobe: 1 ring 0 FMVPs

Kobe without Derek Fisher: 0 rings. :lebronamazed:

[Jacks3]

Dirk is pretty good. Not as good as Bryant, but easily a top 20 player of all-time.

[Fire Colangelo]

Jesus Christ Jordan mythologists are sensitive. You want credit for almost blocking a shot now. :oldlol:

Did Phil Jackson switch Harper or Pippen on elite wing scorers or not? It's a simple yes or no question. No need to get your panties in a bundle about it.


This is ridiculous, your previous post about Pooh Richardson lighting up MJ was Pooh dropping 20. If that's the definition of being lit up, then Kobe has been lit up by scrubs a LOT of times.

MJ started to have trouble with quick guards in 96, but still held the likes of Iverson in check. You're overrating that crossover WAY too much. Scottie did take some of the load off MJ, but he started having injury problems around February of the 1996 season which continued throughout the playoffs.

You're just grasping at straws now after being exposed for using that site as a source, picking out the few times Phil Jackson decided to switch the defense around like he never did with Kobe.

[DMAVS41]

Some of the stuff you say man... :oldlol:

Why are you acting like Gasol/Odom/Ariza is some holy trinity of talent? Who in the top 25 hasn't played alongside a trio better than Gasol/Odom/Ariza? Gasol obviously was a legit second option, Odom was putting up like 11/10 during the '09 and '10 playoffs, and Ariza was a f*cking role player. Stop overrating them so much, damn.

And at your #4 point... just a complete joke. Who has had a "hard time" playing with Kobe? Shaq has had feuds with just about every team he's played on. Kobe/Gasol went to three straight finals/won two straight championships.

Like are you talking about the utter garbage he was playing with from '05-'07? Those guys had a hard time playing the game of basketball, they didn't have a hard time playing with Kobe.

For the record, Dirk is most certainly underrated in terms of his playoff performances and he and Kobe are close in that regard. But some of the points you make to back up that argument are ridiculous.


Dude. Calm down. I'm not acting like it's the holy trinity or that many other players haven't played with more.

But you really need to read the context in which my post was written. It's about answering the claim that Dirk is harder to build around and that Chandler is easier to find than a guy like Gasol.

So you just didn't follow it all.

Unless of course you just agree with the other dude that Tyson Chandler is harder to find than Pau Gasol...which I hope you find as comical as I do...considering not one team even wanted Chandler in 2011.

The stuff about Kobe being harder to play with...that is just my opinion. I see Dirk's style on the court and his demeanor off the court as easier to get along with.

But honestly...why I you posting to me? LOL...you've got the other guy in this thread acting like Chandler is some holy player...:wtf:

I mean...you list Odom as a 11/10 versatile forward like it's nothing special, but he was more productive than Chandler!!!! So I don't know how you can accuse me of anything...I'm properly rating them.

It's a very similar team to the 11 Mavs...just a little better because Gasol is way better than anyone on the Mavs outside of Dirk.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Dude. Calm down. I'm not acting like it's the holy trinity or that many other players haven't played with more.

But you really need to read the context in which my post was written. It's about answering the claim that Dirk is harder to build around and that Chandler is easier to find than a guy like Gasol.

So you just didn't follow it all.

Unless of course you just agree with the other dude that Tyson Chandler is harder to find than Pau Gasol...which I hope you find as comical as I do...considering not one team even wanted Chandler in 2011.

The stuff about Kobe being harder to play with...that is just my opinion. I see Dirk's style on the court and his demeanor off the court as easier to get along with.

But honestly...why I you posting to me? LOL...you've got the other guy in this thread acting like Chandler is some holy player...:wtf:

I mean...you list Odom as a 11/10 versatile forward like it's nothing special, but he was more productive than Chandler!!!! So I don't know how you can accuse me of anything...I'm properly rating them.

It's a very similar team to the 11 Mavs...just a little better because Gasol is way better than anyone on the Mavs outside of Dirk.


The Mavericks did try to convince Chandler to accept a one-year deal worth a whopping $20 million, but there was never real hope of that happening, sources said.


http://espn.go.com/dallas/nba/story/_/id/7335637/center-tyson-chandler-agrees-terms-new-york-knicks

:confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

Yeah please post again. Its still good for a laugh. Doesn't it also have Magic as the "more impactful" defender than Jordan, Pippen and Rodman for an entire decade. Oh I forgot all these "advanced" stats only apply to Kobe.

1. This tells you nothing about his impact compared to an average PF.

2. Of course he is. "All the evidence" that you choose to rely on (only for Kobe of course) because it falls in line with your agenda. "All of the evidence" that the rest of the league values says otherwise.

3. Shaq is a legend. Pau Gasol was on the trading block for years and was traded for so little that people whined about it relentlessly. He's been on the trading block for the entire year and the Lakers can't even get a first rounder for him. Odom was so valuable that the Lakers gave him away to the Mavs for free. Rare hard to find pieces don't sit on the trading block for years and don't get given away to other teams for free.

4. This comment is simply baseless.

Kobe is the only player in league history to ring 5 times with just one other all star/HOF teammate per title team but I guess I'm just supposed to take your word for it that Dirk would have done the same with 0 supporting evidence.


You made the claim that Kobe is an elite defender. And I'm asking you to provide some type of objective evidence...or at least more than horrid all defensive teams that are even bigger jokes than all nba teams.

Because you made that claim that Kobe is elite while Dirk is a liability...and easier to build around as well...doesn't that make you think that Kobe should be playing on better defensive teams with him on the floor...and have better defensive metrics?

I mean, I'd understand if the Mavs had surrounded Dirk with great defensive talent, but that has just not been the case at all. It's been utterly average...with weak center play...and you just got done talking about how important center play is.

So I'm asking why Kobe has a worse team defensive rating while on the floor and a worse individual defensive rating if he's so much better than Dirk...and easier to build around.

Don't you think something is off when you reality doesn't match up with what you are saying?


And no, it's not baseless. Kobe has feuded with plenty of players. Had his coach write a book about how hard he is to coach and be a member of the team. Howard left....etc. It's not baseless...

Dirk is the complete opposite both on and off the court. Sorry, again, just true...

[DMAVS41]

http://espn.go.com/dallas/nba/story/_/id/7335637/center-tyson-chandler-agrees-terms-new-york-knicks

:confusedshrug:


Why are you confused? I don't get it...you can get Asik for 8.5 million a year and he's 95% as good as Chandler. Actually, in 13 he was just clearly better...and actually played well in the playoffs.

You do realize that Gasol makes 19 million right?

And it's not just about the money. We are talking about getting a player as good as Gasol...it's much harder to get someone that can do what prime Gasol could do compared to what Chandler could do.

But you already know that...you just keep trying to dodge and play dumb...

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Why are you confused? I don't get it...you can get Asik for 8.5 million a year and he's 95% as good as Chandler.

You do realize that Gasol makes 19 million right?

And it's not just about the money. We are talking about getting a player as good as Gasol...it's much harder to get someone that can do what prime Gasol could do compared to what Chandler could do.

But you already know that...you just keep trying to dodge and play dumb...

Gasol makes 19 million and has been on the trading block all season. No one wants him for more than a second round pick. Prior to joining the Lakers he was on the trading block for years and eventually traded for trinkets. Lamar Odom literally traded for nothing. Ron Artest literally released for nothing. Yet somehow these guys are high value.

[BrainDead]

Why are you confused? I don't get it...you can get Asik for 8.5 million a year and he's 95% as good as Chandler. Actually, in 13 he was just clearly better...and actually played well in the playoffs.

You do realize that Gasol makes 19 million right?

And it's not just about the money. We are talking about getting a player as good as Gasol...it's much harder to get someone that can do what prime Gasol could do compared to what Chandler could do.

But you already know that...you just keep trying to dodge and play dumb...
You probably don't give a shit, but I really enjoy reading your post. You are a very good poster in my book. :cheers:

[Droid101]

You probably don't give a shit, but I really enjoy reading your post. You are a very good poster in my book. :cheers:
At least your username is accurate.

[DMAVS41]

Gasol makes 19 million and has been on the trading block all season. Prior to joining the Lakers he was on the trading block for years and eventually traded for trinkets. Lamar Odom literally traded for nothing. Ron Artest literally released for nothing. Yet somehow these guys are high value.

We aren't talking about current Gasol...

We aren't talking about Odom post 2010...

Although both guys were highly valued and you are just embarrassing yourself.

Yep...like, do you actually realize that Gasol averaged 21/10/3 before joining the Lakers.

I can't ****ing believe Kobe stans still insist on under-rating Gasol to these extremes. Now he's easier to find than a guy like Chandler.

Chandler, mind you, that literally no team wanted in 2011...and he'll go back to that soon...as his often injured and over-rated play is being spotlighted yet again.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

At least your username is accurate.

Probably one of his "brothers" :roll:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

We aren't talking about current Gasol...

We aren't talking about Odom post 2010...

Although both guys were highly valued and you are just embarrassing yourself.

Yep...like, do you actually realize that Gasol averaged 21/10/3 before joining the Lakers.

I can't ****ing believe Kobe stans still insist on under-rating Gasol to these extremes. Now he's easier to find than a guy like Chandler.

Chandler, mind you, that literally no team wanted in 2011...and he'll go back to that soon...as his often injured and over-rated play is being spotlighted yet again.

Was Gasol on the trading block for years prior to joining the Lakers yes or no?

What kind of offers were they getting for him?

What was his reputation around the league?

The revisionist history is strong with you.

This isn't a hypothetical situation. Gasol is easy to find because the Lakers "found him" for Kwame Brown's corpse, a Euro project and some late first rounders. It was that easy.

[Heavincent]

Kobe has feuded with plenty of players.Howard left....etc.


lol how is that evidence of anything? Dwight is a whiny asshole and one of the most obnoxious divas in all of sports.

What did Kobe even do to him that was so bad anyway?

[BrainDead]

At least your username is accurate.
Thanks man! :cheers:

[DMAVS41]

Was Gasol on the trading block for years prior to joining the Lakers yes or no?

What kind of offers were they getting for him?

What was his reputation around the league?

The revisionist history is strong with you.

What was the league reputation? That he was a beast at pf that could get you to near 50 wins with average supporting casts.

Revisionist history? See, this is the problem, Gasol was awesome from day 1. This is why people that don't have league pass, which you clearly didn't, can't really comment. You just don't know enough.

How many Gasol games were you watching back then? The dude was ****ing awesome. He wasn't a championship first option, but he was highly thought of by people in the know about the NBA.

Moronic ESPN fans like you? Probably didn't know about him...

Greg Popovich openly argued against the trade. Why would he do that if Gasol was a nobody?

Also, why are you ignoring that no team even wanted Chandler in 11. The Thunder ****ing sent him packing...ROFL

Revisionist history?:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

lol how is that evidence of anything? Dwight is a whiny asshole and one of the most obnoxious divas in all of sports.

What did Kobe even do to him that was so bad anyway?

Wait. You don't think there is evidence that supports Dirk being easier to play with?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What was the league reputation? That he was a beast at pf that could get you to near 50 wins with average supporting casts.

Revisionist history? See, this is the problem, Gasol was awesome from day 1. This is why people that don't have league pass, which you clearly didn't, can't really comment. You just don't know enough.

How many Gasol games were you watching back then? The dude was ****ing awesome. He wasn't a championship first option, but he was highly thought of by people in the know about the NBA.

Moronic ESPN fans like you? Probably didn't know about him...

Greg Popovich openly argued against the trade. Why would he do that if Gasol was a nobody?

Also, why are you ignoring that no team even wanted Chandler in 11. The Thunder ****ing sent him packing...ROFL

Revisionist history?:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Chandler's value was low based on his injury reputation. Not his play as evidenced by the fact he got a huge contract the following year.

If it was true that Pau Gasol was so valued around the league why was he traded to the Lakers for scraps after being rumored of being on the trading block for years?

[Heavincent]

You know DMAVS, I'm actually gonna agree with you on this one. Chandler has become pretty overrated since 2011. Dude got punked by Mo Speights the other night. He got scored on like 3 straight times and then got ejected because he was so mad :lol

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Wait. You don't think there is evidence that supports Dirk being easier to play with?

Yeah because we all know how successful the Mavs have been at attracting those big name free agents. Didn't Lebron... i mean Chris Paul.... I mean Deron Williams... I mean Dwight Howard pass on playing with Dirk too?

[Fire Colangelo]

Was Gasol on the trading block for years prior to joining the Lakers yes or no?

What kind of offers were they getting for him?

What was his reputation around the league?

The revisionist history is strong with you.

This isn't a hypothetical situation. Gasol is easy to find because the Lakers "found him" for Kwame Brown's corpse, a Euro project and some late first rounders. It was that easy.

Wtf @ the bolded part lol, i guess since shaq signed with Lakers in FA, getting a talent like shaq was that easy too. Good luck finding another guy like Gasol in the league now, there are tons of guys that does what Chandler do.

Ainge thought about trading Al Jefferson + 1st rounder for Gasol, but turned it down due to the Oden/Durant sweepstakes. Portland played around with Aldridge + fillers idea, but again, they wanted Oden/Durant in the draft.

That was Gasol's value at the time, in hindsight, the trade with the Lakers weren't so bad, and was exactly what Memphis wanted. Had they not made stupid decisions and trades, they could've ended up with a Marc Gasol + Kevin Love front court.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Wtf @ the bolded part lol, i guess since shaq signed with Lakers in FA, getting a talent like shaq was that easy too. Good luck finding another guy like Gasol in the league now, there are tons of guys that does what Chandler do.

Ainge thought about trading Al Jefferson + 1st rounder for Gasol, but turned it down due to the Oden/Durant sweepstakes. Portland played around with Aldridge + fillers idea, but again, they wanted Oden/Durant in the draft.

That was Gasol's value at the time, in hindsight, the trade with the Lakers weren't so bad, and was exactly what Memphis wanted. Had they not made stupid decisions and trades, they could've ended up with a Marc Gasol + Kevin Love front court.

Shaq got a max contract. The Lakers couldn't have offered more. Chandler was offered 20 million by the Mavs for 1 year and ended up with 55 from the Knicks over 4 years. Why aren't they offering those contract to tons of guys if tons of guys can be Tyson Chandler?

So you are trying to claim Pau's value were deals that offer teams rejected. Am I understanding you correctly?

[DMAVS41]

Yeah because we all know how successful the Mavs have been at attracting those big name free agents. Didn't Lebron... i mean Chris Paul.... I mean Deron Williams... I mean Dwight Howard pass on playing with Dirk too?

That's a different argument...and one I'd say that playing Los Angeles trumps actually.

The Cavs couldn't get anyone when he was in Cleveland...simple truth about the NBA is that it's hard to get big time superstars unless you draft them or happen to be the Lakers honestly.

[PsychoBe]

no one is going to look at these arbitrary numbers and place dirk over kobe.

kobe has done more for the game of basketball in the past ten years then any other player of his era. he is in a league of his own.

[DMAVS41]

Shaq got a max contract. The Lakers couldn't have offered more. Chandler was offered 20 million by the Mavs for 1 year and ended up with 55 from the Knicks over 4 years. Why aren't they offering those contract to tons of guys if tons of guys can be Tyson Chandler?

So you are trying to claim Pau's value were deals that offer teams rejected. Am I understanding you correctly?

Are you really this dense.

When someone says it's easier to get a guy like Chandler than it is Gasol...they mean that Gasol is better than Chandler and that there are less guys as good as Gasol....so it's tougher to find him

Think of how stupid your logic is. The Hornets paid Eric Gordon more money than Stephen Curry got. You really think that means anything about their true value?????

The point is that Pau Gasol was something around a top 10 player...while Tyson Chandler might be top 40 in 11. It's just a huge difference.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Are you really this dense.

When someone says it's easier to get a guy like Chandler than it is Gasol...they mean that Gasol is better than Chandler and that there are less guys as good as Gasol....so it's tougher to find him

Think of how stupid your logic is. The Hornets paid Eric Gordon more money than Stephen Curry got. You really think that means anything about their true value?????

The point is that Pau Gasol was something around a top 10 player...while Tyson Chandler might be top 40 in 11. It's just a huge difference.

No they were restricted free agents at the time. They never hit the open market and Gordon became injured while Curry improved. However if they were both unrestricted free agents at the same time their value on the open market would be determined by the contracts they were offered. This is common sense.

Tyson Chandler was a free agent. The Mavs wanted him for 20 million. The Knicks for 55. This was right after his season with the Mavs. Then he signed with the Knicks won the DPOY, made an all defensive team and matched Pau's place on the 3rd team all NBA team from 08-10. Yeah buddy what an absurd comparison.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

That's a different argument...and one I'd say that playing Los Angeles trumps actually.

The Cavs couldn't get anyone when he was in Cleveland...simple truth about the NBA is that it's hard to get big time superstars unless you draft them or happen to be the Lakers honestly.

Oh my bad. Everybody wants to play with Dirk but they don't want to play in Dallas. They would rather player in New Jersey or for the Lakers red headed stepchild, or in Houston. My mistake I didn't realize that. :facepalm

[secund2nun]

Considering your mini golf story, I don't think that book would sell very well. Writing doesn't seem like your forte.

It would sell well since it would expose Kobe...which is a very easy task to do.

[secund2nun]

How salty can you get, nikka.
Did he **** your mother or something.
This type of MAD can't come from nothing.

Overrated is overrated. Kobe is such a fraud.

[tpols]

Dirk in the right situation couldve been a top 10 GOAT.. you could probably say that for 20 or more players though.


For their primes

2001- runaway Kobe

2002- every metric favors Kobe.. more MVP shares even with Shaq on his team, more playoff success

2003- again, every metric favors Kobe, 3rd in MVP shares, Dirk's 7th. Both lost to spurs

2004- Kobe again finishes with more MVP shares, Dirk gets bounced in first round while Kobe goes down badly in Finals. Slight Dirk.

2005- Dirk clear

2006- Kobe slight for same reasoning as Dirk getting 04.. way more impressive regular season, Kobe went out in first round while Dirk went out badly in Finals

2007- First time in career Dirk finished ahead of Kobe in MVP voting.. but has perhaps the worst series of all time against a 107.4 d-Rating, 19th ranked Golden State Defense. Theres no argument for Dirk here. Both Duncan and Kobe have much stronger cases

2008- Obvious Kobe.. there's no one that had Dirk even in the same breath as Kobe that year.. finished 11th in MVP voting to Kobe's 1st, and had stronger playoff series before Boston while Dirk once again put up numbers in a 5 game first round loss

2009- Obvious Kobe.. shouldnt need explanation

2010- Obvious Kobe

2011- Obvious Dirk

2012- Slight Kobe.. both lost to OKC.. Mavs got swept. Kobe 4th in MVP voting, Dirk 11th.

2013- Clear Kobe

Thats 9 to 3. Dirk wasnt considered better than Kobe for the vast majority of their careers.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Dirk is just a better individual player and scorer imo:coleman: :coleman:

[ArbitraryWater]

Dirk in the right situation couldve been a top 10 GOAT.. you could probably say that for 20 or more players though.


For their primes

2001- runaway Kobe

2002- every metric favors Kobe.. more MVP shares even with Shaq on his team, more playoff success

2003- again, every metric favors Kobe, 3rd in MVP shares, Dirk's 7th. Both lost to spurs

2004- Kobe again finishes with more MVP shares, Dirk gets bounced in first round while Kobe goes down badly in Finals. Slight Dirk.

2005- Dirk clear

2006- Kobe slight for same reasoning as Dirk getting 04.. way more impressive regular season, Kobe went out in first round while Dirk went out badly in Finals

2007- First time in career Dirk finished ahead of Kobe in MVP voting.. but has perhaps the worst series of all time against a 107.4 d-Rating, 19th ranked Golden State Defense. Theres no argument for Dirk here. Both Duncan and Kobe have much stronger cases

2008- Obvious Kobe.. there's no one that had Dirk even in the same breath as Kobe that year.. finished 11th in MVP voting to Kobe's 1st, and had stronger playoff series before Boston while Dirk once again put up numbers in a 5 game first round loss

2009- Obvious Kobe.. shouldnt need explanation

2010- Obvious Kobe

2011- Obvious Dirk

2012- Slight Kobe.. both lost to OKC.. Mavs got swept. Kobe 4th in MVP voting, Dirk 11th.

2013- Clear Kobe

Thats 9 to 3. Dirk wasnt considered better than Kobe for the vast majority of their careers.

2003: Dirk (WAY better in the Playoffs. No fkn contest. While Kobe was HORRIFIC.)

2004: Dirk. Same thing as 2003, Kobe wets the bed come playoff time. BIG.

2005: Dirk

2006: Dirk. Easy. Dude had a great playoff run, carried a team of no all stars to the damn finals.

2007: Dirk - MVP, 67 wins, both play subpar in the 1R.

2008-2010: Kobe

2011: Dirk

2012: Dirk

2013: Kobe

2014: Dirk

8-3 for Dirk... over the vast majority of their careers Dirk got the better of him.

[Bob Dole]

Dirk is just as good as kobe and impacts a game just as much if not more than Kobe. Kobe has had a greater career but that is all do to circumstance.

If starting a team and knowing how they would turn out, I would take Dirk without even thinking twice about it.

[Jlamb47]

Kobe > Dirk its not close IMO but Dirk is one of a kind.

[tpols]

2003: Dirk (WAY better in the Playoffs. No fkn contest. While Kobe was HORRIFIC.)

2004: Dirk. Same thing as 2003, Kobe wets the bed come playoff time. BIG.

2005: Dirk

2006: Dirk. Easy. Dude had a great playoff run, carried a team of no all stars to the damn finals.

2007: Dirk - MVP, 67 wins, both play subpar in the 1R.

2008-2010: Kobe

2011: Dirk

2012: Dirk

2013: Kobe

2014: Dirk

8-3 for Dirk... over the vast majority of their careers Dirk got the better of him.
2003 kobe exited the playoffs in a worse way but throughout the whole year he was a better more well rounded player than dirk.. Every poll mvp voting all nba teams kobe got them over dirk. Kobe was still elite defensively while dirk was all offense and couldn't play a lick of defense.

Same reason mavs lost in 06.. Dallas had no interior defense to stop a slashing wade. It's more than just on off statistics.. Although it's silly to compare kobe to dirk cuz kobes been on more top ranked defenses.. Dirk been on some poor defenses.. who cares if he boosts them from 18th to 16th lol. He's never been an elite defensive piece. Kobe has been the best backcourt defender and all nba first defense deserving so on a FIRST ranked defense. Dirk can never claim to have taken on a top defensive role.



Also you gave kobe 08 to 10 one on the tally when it should be 3.:oldlol:

[tpols]

Also ridiculous to say Kobe wet the bed in 03 but just say Dirk played 'subpar' in 07:oldlol:

Who are you trying to fool? Dirk's was way worse.

32/5/5 on 43FG vs 3rd ranked spurs defense

or

20/11/2 on 38FG vs 19th ranked GS defense

:oldlol:


Your whole comparison was a joke and will be disregarded. You used MVP voting as the main reason for Dirk winning 07, and then disregarded it for every single other year where Kobe finished higher.. which was the rest of the years.

[ArbitraryWater]

2003 kobe exited the playoffs in a worse way but throughout the whole year he was a better more well rounded player than dirk.. Every poll mvp voting all nba teams kobe got them over dirk. Kobe was still elite defensively while dirk was all offense and couldn't play a lick of defense.

Same reason mavs lost in 06.. Dallas had no interior defense to stop a slashing wade. It's more than just on off statistics.. Although it's silly to compare kobe to dirk cuz kobes been on more top ranked defenses.. Dirk been on some poor defenses.. who cares if he boosts them from 18th to 16th lol. He's never been an elite defensive piece. Kobe has been the best backcourt defender and all nba first defense deserving so on a FIRST ranked defense. Dirk can never claim to have taken on a top defensive role.



Also you gave kobe 08 to 10 one on the tally when it should be 3.:oldlol:

? But I gave it 3? It wasnt even close.. what you yapping about?

Oh so MVP matters, but if no one wins, who ends higher still matters???

So either go by it every year or disregard it totally :biggums:

[tpols]

Oh so MVP matters, but if no one wins, who ends higher still matters???



Whats so :biggums: about that?


Dirk finishes 11th and Kobe finishes 3rd.. Doesnt matter.


Meanwhile Dirk's 1st is the only thing that matters because he won it.. while Kobe came in 2nd.:oldlol:




BTW.. There's a bigger gap between 11 and 3.. than 1 and 2.

[DMAVS41]

No they were restricted free agents at the time. They never hit the open market and Gordon became injured while Curry improved. However if they were both unrestricted free agents at the same time their value on the open market would be determined by the contracts they were offered. This is common sense.

Tyson Chandler was a free agent. The Mavs wanted him for 20 million. The Knicks for 55. This was right after his season with the Mavs. Then he signed with the Knicks won the DPOY, made an all defensive team and matched Pau's place on the 3rd team all NBA team from 08-10. Yeah buddy what an absurd comparison.

And before Dirk...nobody wanted Chandler.

This again is just noise...

Also, the Suns maxed out Gordon...so that was his value....so according to your ****ed up logic it works

As for Chandler vs Paul...it matters how players actually play the ****ing game!

Chandler has never been close to as impactful as Gasol...

Do you realize Chandler put up 6/9 in the playoffs the year you are talking about...or something awful like that...

He's now been in NY 3 years and they have been a disaster overall. His play in the most important games has been awful...now his team can't even make the playoffs

Team is 11-25 with him and 10-14 without him...





But again, this is just noise. Either you think Chandler is as good as Gasol overall or you don't. You've, as usual, tried to post red herring after red herring...

Your defensive rating arguments have been shredded...as has the defensive liability arguments about Dirk.

Because of that, you have tried to distract with posts comparing peak Pau Gasol to a far inferior player in Chandler...and basing it off his contract. I guess Joe Johnson is better than Gasol as well. Gilbert Arenas is better than everyone. Kobe this year is the best because of his terrible contract. Eric Gordon is better than Curry....and on and on.

Like I said before...just give up and admit you were wrong about the defensive stuff.

[I<3NBA]

right before Dirk won in 2011, he was pretty much labeled a playoff choker. interesting how opinions change with just 1 ring.

[havoc33]

dmavs at it again, trying to push his boy Dirk :oldlol:

don't waste your time, fellas.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk in the right situation couldve been a top 10 GOAT.. you could probably say that for 20 or more players though.


For their primes

2001- runaway Kobe

2002- every metric favors Kobe.. more MVP shares even with Shaq on his team, more playoff success

2003- again, every metric favors Kobe, 3rd in MVP shares, Dirk's 7th. Both lost to spurs

2004- Kobe again finishes with more MVP shares, Dirk gets bounced in first round while Kobe goes down badly in Finals. Slight Dirk.

2005- Dirk clear

2006- Kobe slight for same reasoning as Dirk getting 04.. way more impressive regular season, Kobe went out in first round while Dirk went out badly in Finals

2007- First time in career Dirk finished ahead of Kobe in MVP voting.. but has perhaps the worst series of all time against a 107.4 d-Rating, 19th ranked Golden State Defense. Theres no argument for Dirk here. Both Duncan and Kobe have much stronger cases

2008- Obvious Kobe.. there's no one that had Dirk even in the same breath as Kobe that year.. finished 11th in MVP voting to Kobe's 1st, and had stronger playoff series before Boston while Dirk once again put up numbers in a 5 game first round loss

2009- Obvious Kobe.. shouldnt need explanation

2010- Obvious Kobe

2011- Obvious Dirk

2012- Slight Kobe.. both lost to OKC.. Mavs got swept. Kobe 4th in MVP voting, Dirk 11th.

2013- Clear Kobe

Thats 9 to 3. Dirk wasnt considered better than Kobe for the vast majority of their careers.


The year by year stuff is hard because of the more help Kobe

I don't see any reason why we should just give Kobe 03...

I'm fine with giving Kobe 02 and 04, but not 03...Dirk was amazing that year.

I disagree about 06 as well. The only way Dirk got to the finals was beating the title favored Spurs in a road game 7 going for 37/15 and the game winner against the peak Spurs and prime Duncan. Kobe choked in game 7 against a weaker Suns team.

Totally agree about 07. Definitely Kobe. 08 as well.

You have to give 09 and 10 to Kobe, but Dirk in 09 and 10 was actually slightly better overall as a player than he was in 2011 in my opinion. He was basically a 27/10/3 64% TS playoff player those two years. If the situations were reversed and Kobe was on average teams and Dirk was on the best team in the league....we'd be giving these years to Dirk

12 and 13 go to Kobe

14 to Dirk

But again, it's hard to do that because Kobe came into the league 2 years before Dirk.

So if you broke it down more fairly, again...I don't like doing this...I'd rather just look at the big picture because that is more fair. But if you compared year 1 to year 1.

Dirk was a better player than Kobe in each of their first 3 years.

In year 4. Which would be 02 Dirk vs 00 Kobe...Dirk was slightly better

I don't want to go through all the years like that, but that is way more fair than dropping a young 19 year old German kid in the NBA and going year by year the way you did.

But the overall numbers and averages I think do a better job of illustrating the two players.

[DMAVS41]

Also, the Kobe stan argument against Wade is in reverse here. I have chosen not to bring it up because I really don't care much about it because has been durable for most of his career, not Dirk durable mind you...but good enough

Anyway though.

Dirk has played in 1167 games from 99 to present

Kobe has played in 1095 games from 99 to present

Kobe has missed almost a full season of games more than Dirk due to injury for his career.

Again, I wonder if the Kobe stans will give as much credence to this as they have given to the arguments concerning Wade.

[tpols]

Also, the Kobe stan argument against Wade is in reverse here. I have chosen not to bring it up because I really don't care much about it because has been durable for most of his career, not Dirk durable mind you...but good enough

Anyway though.

Dirk has played in 1167 games from 99 to present

Kobe has played in 1095 games from 99 to present

Kobe has missed almost a full season of games more than Dirk due to injury for his career.

Again, I wonder if the Kobe stans will give as much credence to this as they have given to the arguments concerning Wade.
This is silly because you're not using playoff games.. just regular season

Its 1295 for Dirk and Kobe combined. Kinda wierd that they are exactly the same :oldlol:


Kobes played in over a seasons worth more PLAYOFF games though and those take way bigger toll than regular season. So your argument pretty much just got flipped against you. Kobe's led teams to multiple straight finals and rings.. Dirks runs came far in between each other and he tinkered out come Finals time both times. His efficiency plummetted from earlier rounds.

Dirk and Wade havent proven the ability to sustain multiple long playoff runs ala Kobe, Lebron.. they both have far in between long runs 06 and 11 for both, and then withered down in the following years.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Dirk>Kobe
/thread

[Yao Ming's Foot]

And before Dirk...nobody wanted Chandler.

This again is just noise...

Also, the Suns maxed out Gordon...so that was his value....so according to your ****ed up logic it works

As for Chandler vs Paul...it matters how players actually play the ****ing game!

Chandler has never been close to as impactful as Gasol...

Do you realize Chandler put up 6/9 in the playoffs the year you are talking about...or something awful like that...

He's now been in NY 3 years and they have been a disaster overall. His play in the most important games has been awful...now his team can't even make the playoffs

Team is 11-25 with him and 10-14 without him...

All of the above could be said about Pau too. His team record sucks. His stats are terrible. Defense even worse. What's the relevance? A player getting injured after signing a contract tells you nothing about how valuable they were the season prior. You realize that right? Same with a player getting better.



But again, this is just noise. Either you think Chandler is as good as Gasol overall or you don't. You've, as usual, tried to post red herring after red herring...

Your defensive rating arguments have been shredded...as has the defensive liability arguments about Dirk.

The only arguments you "shredded" are the strawman ones you created loosely inspired by my post. If you have to argue my point by creating some exaggeration rather than what I actually said you already lost.



Because of that, you have tried to distract with posts comparing peak Pau Gasol to a far inferior player in Chandler...and basing it off his contract. I guess Joe Johnson is better than Gasol as well. Gilbert Arenas is better than everyone. Kobe this year is the best because of his terrible contract. Eric Gordon is better than Curry....and on and on.

I never said better. You were speaking about value. How hard is it replace a guy like this? How many Joe Johnson are there in the league? There is a reason he gets paid and makes the all star team nearly every year. Shooting guards with his scoring ability are rare. Thats why he is valued.

Once again I have no idea where you got the idea that signing a contract means anything more than what their value is on the open market right at the moment they signed. Arenas on the market right now isn't getting an offer from anybody. That's his value.


Like I said before...just give up and admit you were wrong about the defensive stuff.

:roll:

Pau Gasol Adjusted +/- in the playoffs

2010 0.11
2009 3.85
Avg: 1.85

Tyson Chandler Adjusted +/- in the playoffs

2011 2.58

2.58 > 1.85

DAT "OBJECTIVE" PLAYOFF IMPACT :oldlol:

[tpols]

The only arguments you "shredded" are the strawman ones you created loosely inspired by my post. If you have to argue my point by creating some exaggeration rather than what I actually said you already lost.
:

This is pretty much dmavs in a nutshell for any discussion concerning Kobe, or Dirk..

[tpols]

:roll:

Pau Gasol Adjusted +/- in the playoffs

2010 0.11
2009 3.85
Avg: 1.85

Tyson Chandler Adjusted +/- in the playoffs

2011 2.58

2.58 > 1.85

DAT "OBJECTIVE" PLAYOFF IMPACT :oldlol:
wow is this true? Because Gasol was better in 2010 than he was in 2009. but these silly stats seems to suggest he was way way better in 2009.

Also thats pretty damning for how muchs mavs uses defensive rapm to assess total defensive impact.. Guess Chandlers defense was more impactful than Pau's offense and defense combined lol

[DMAVS41]

This is silly because you're not using playoff games.. just regular season

Its 1295 for Dirk and Kobe combined. Kinda wierd that they are exactly the same :oldlol:


Kobes played in over a seasons worth more PLAYOFF games though and those take way bigger toll than regular season. So your argument pretty much just got flipped against you. Kobe's led teams to multiple straight finals and rings.. Dirks runs came far in between each other and he tinkered out come Finals time both times. His efficiency plummetted from earlier rounds.

Dirk and Wade havent proven the ability to sustain multiple long playoff runs ala Kobe, Lebron.. they both have far in between long runs 06 and 11 for both, and then withered down in the following years.

It's about games missed due to injuries...

Dirk also never had the luxury of playing 2nd fiddle to Shaq for 8 years of his career either. Goes both ways...

We have no idea what Dirk would do in terms of health...you have no basis for your claims. What we do know is that as the franchise number 1 carrying a huge burden...he's missed far less games due to injury than Kobe has. That is just a fact.

And if we are going to credit Kobe with playing on better teams...then we have to credit Dirk for being more durable.

[DMAVS41]

wow is this true? Because Gasol was better in 2010 than he was in 2009. but these silly stats seems to suggest he was way way better in 2009.

Also thats pretty damning for how muchs mavs uses defensive rapm to assess total defensive impact.. Guess Chandlers defense was more impactful than Pau's offense and defense combined lol

What?

He is the only one talking about solely defense.

I've never said Gasol was as good as Chandler overall on defense...which is basically what he's saying without actually saying it. He is saying that Gasol and Chandler are similar players.

And am I hearing this right? You are now agreeing that 11 Chandler was better than 09/10 Gasol?

He is the one creating the straw man...he knows very well that when we said it's harder to find a guy like Gasol than Chandler...we were talking about how there are more players as good or better than Chandler than there are Gasol

Honestly, it's more noise and distraction as usual...it doesn't even matter even if they were equal. It means nothing for this discussion...it's just a distraction...

Gasol is harder to find because there are far less players as good as him. (in his prime at least)...Chandler is not the same way.

Again...we really need to stop propping up a guy that average 8/9/0 and anchored the 8th best defense in the league....especially when we've seen him play so poorly before and after.

[tpols]

It's about games missed due to injuries...

Dirk also never had the luxury of playing 2nd fiddle to Shaq for 8 years of his career either. Goes both ways...

Even if Dirk was second fiddle to Shaq.. he still mightve broke down if he was tasked with dropping 29/7/6, 27/5/5 w/ elite defense. Kobe's impact on those teams was extremely high.. his numbers for regular season + playoffs from 01 and 02 are better than Dirk's.

Shaq frees up space but at the same time he eats up a lot of stats. If Kobe was running with a big man version of michael finley like a weaker chris webber, and steve nash and those loaded offensive mavs teams from the early 2000s he couldve gotten his just as much..

Kobes efficiency would almost certainly go up with prime nash's IQ alone since he would be feeding him in his spots and getting him good looks.


How does having Shaq make the 220 playoff games Kobe's played less grueling than the 128 games Dirk has played?

Kobe's also played in almost as many playoff games without Shaq as Dirk has in total, so its even less relevant.

[tpols]

What?

He is the only one talking about solely defense.

I've never said Gasol was as good as Chandler overall on defense...which is basically what he's saying without actually saying it. He is saying that Gasol and Chandler are similar players.

And am I hearing this right? You are now agreeing that 11 Chandler was better than 09/10 Gasol?

He is the one creating the straw man...he knows very well that when we said it's harder to find a guy like Gasol than Chandler...we were talking about how there are more players as good or better than Chandler than there are Gasol

Honestly, it's more noise and distraction as usual...it doesn't even matter even if they were equal. It means nothing for this discussion...it's just a distraction...

Chandler had a 4.0 defensive RAPM in 2011.

Gasol had 2.7 offensive RAPM and a 1.1 defensive RAPM in 2010.



So according to the statistics that you always use to quanitfy impact, Chandlers defense was worth more than Pau's overall package..

[DMAVS41]

Chandler had a 4.0 defensive RAPM in 2011.

Gasol had 2.7 offensive RAPM and a 1.1 defensive RAPM in 2010.



So according to the statistics that you always use to quanitfy impact, Chandlers defense was worth more than Pau's overall package..

I never use just that...and have rarely used it for offense. What I have said, is that you can't claim a player has a great defensive impact without it showing up in some way...and drapm is good for that.

But I'm fine with using that...I think it's a telling stat, especially about defensive impact because it's so hard to quantify.

I'm assuming then...that you readily admit Kobe is not an elite defender then...as he grades out so poorly on this metric...and actually worse than Dirk many years.

Again...can't have it both ways. Considering this thread is about Kobe vs Dirk...I will gladly concede the above as long as you use it for Kobe and Dirk.

That work for you?

[DMAVS41]

Even if Dirk was second fiddle to Shaq.. he still mightve broke down if he was tasked with dropping 29/7/6, 27/5/5 w/ elite defense. Kobe's impact on those teams was extremely high.. his numbers for regular season + playoffs from 01 and 02 are better than Dirk's.

Shaq frees up space but at the same time he eats up a lot of stats. If Kobe was running with a big man version of michael finley like a weaker chris webber, and steve nash and those loaded offensive mavs teams from the early 2000s he couldve gotten his just as much..

Kobes efficiency would almost certainly go up with prime nash's IQ alone since he would be feeding him in his spots and getting him good looks.


How does having Shaq make the 220 playoff games Kobe's played less grueling than the 128 games Dirk has played?

Kobe's also played in almost as many playoff games without Shaq as Dirk has in total, so its even less relevant.


Kobe's efficiency would never go up. He's basically the same player regardless of circumstances. Still takes 3 to 4 terrible shots a game...etc.

Who knows? Dirk could have done a lot of things. He could have won 5 titles with prime Shaq.

There is at least evidence that giving Dirk a good center and quality team/coaching...and he'll lead you to the title and or deep.

When the point your making has no evidence. Dirk has played a ton of international games, more than Kobe, over this time span as well. And still has been way more durable.

Also, the two deepest runs the Mavs have had...the following years Dirk missed only a few games.

After the 06 deep run...Dirk had arguably his best regular season ever and missed 3 games.

After the 11 deep run...and an offseason of being sick and playing internationally and not even thinking there was going to be a season...Dirk played in 62 of the 66 games.

Again...no evidence to support your claims.

[tpols]

I never use just that...and have rarely used it for offense. What I have said, is that you can't claim a player has a great defensive impact without it showing up in some way...and drapm is good for that.

But I'm fine with using that...I think it's a telling stat, especially about defensive impact because it's so hard to quantify.

I'm assuming then...that you readily admit Kobe is not an elite defender then...as he grades out so poorly on this metric...and actually worse than Dirk many years.

Again...can't have it both ways. Considering this thread is about Kobe vs Dirk...I will gladly concede the above as long as you use it for Kobe and Dirk.

That work for you?
No.. because I dont agree with the stat at all.. Pau's length and rebounding were great in the 09 and 10 and he certainly was better than Chandler. Your stats suggest otherwise.. not mine.


Also, I cant figure why you would use just defensive RAPM and not offense.. theyre just mirrors of one another. You could get numbers like shawn marion shooting 22ppg on 50%+ shooting and only have an offensive rapm of 1.1 because you dont impact the team offense as much, and then you could be steve nash who orchestrates everything scores way less, but has a rapm of 6.8.

How does that not matter if defensive RAPM matters?

[tpols]

Kobe's efficiency would never go up. He's basically the same player regardless of circumstances. Still takes 3 to 4 terrible shots a game...etc.

Who knows? Dirk could have done a lot of things. He could have won 5 titles with prime Shaq.

There is at least evidence that giving Dirk a good center and quality team/coaching...and he'll lead you to the title and or deep.

When the point your making has no evidence. Dirk has played a ton of international games, more than Kobe, over this time span as well. And still has been way more durable.

Also, the two deepest runs the Mavs have had...the following years Dirk missed only a few games.

After the 06 deep run...Dirk had arguably his best regular season ever and missed 3 games.

After the 11 deep run...and an offseason of being sick and playing internationally and not even thinking there was going to be a season...Dirk played in 62 of the 66 games.

Again...no evidence to support your claims.

After the 06 run Dirk crashed and burned in the first round of the playoffs the very next year. Then lost in the first round again the next year. After the 11 run Dirk was done, got swept the next year, and hasnt done anything. There was no dominance/repeating/nothing..

Im not talking about missed regular season games.:oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

No.. because I dont agree with the stat at all.. Pau's length and rebounding were great in the 09 and 10 and he certainly was better than Chandler. Your stats suggest otherwise.. not mine.


Also, I cant figure why you would use just defensive RAPM and not offense.. theyre just mirrors of one another. You could get numbers like shawn marion shooting 22ppg on 50%+ shooting and only have an offensive rapm of 1.1 because you dont impact the team offense as much, and then you could be steve nash who orchestrates everything scores way less, but has a rapm of 6.8.

How does that not matter if defensive RAPM matters?

Lets clarify a few things;

1. it's not my stat. it's just regularized adjusted plus minus...which filters out the "noise" you rightly refer to in just regular plus minus

2. it all matters. the difference is that it's far easier to judge offensive impact using other metrics and stats than it is defense. defensive impact is very hard to quantify...and I think drapm is probably the best metric out there for this. if not the best, certainly one of them.

what do you use to measure defensive impact if not some version of individual drtg combined with team improvement/decline on court...combined with team drtg with player on court? I mean...it's not ideal, but it's better than just the eye test or some other non sense.

So I'm not discounting the offensive part of it...I'm just saying we have an easier time evaluating offensive impact than defensive impact.

But again...I'm for using this stuff...I know you guys aren't...that's why I didn't bring it up.

YOU DID!!!!!!!!! That is the sick thing...you two morons just brought up rapm for Chandler and Gasol...and are now backtracking when I talk about it for Kobe and Dirk.

:hammerhead: :hammerhead: :hammerhead: :hammerhead:

[tpols]

Lets clarify a few things;

1. it's not my stat. it's just regularized adjusted plus minus...which filters out the "noise" you rightly refer to in just regular plus minus

2. it all matters. the difference is that it's far easier to judge offensive impact using other metrics and stats than it is defense. defensive impact is very hard to quantify...and I think drapm is probably the best metric out there for this. if not the best, certainly one of them.

what do you use to measure defensive impact if not some version of individual drtg combined with team improvement/decline on court...combined with team drtg with player on court? I mean...it's not ideal, but it's better than just the eye test or some other non sense.

So I'm not discounting the offensive part of it...I'm just saying we have an easier time evaluating offensive impact than defensive impact.

But again...I'm for using this stuff...I know you guys aren't...that's why I didn't bring it up.

YOU DID!!!!!!!!! That is the sick thing...you two morons just brought up rapm for Chandler and Gasol...and are now backtracking when I talk about it for Kobe and Dirk.

:hammerhead: :hammerhead: :hammerhead: :hammerhead:

How am I backtracking when I clearly stated I didnt agree with it from the get go?

[DMAVS41]

After the 06 run Dirk crashed and burned in the first round of the playoffs the very next year. Then lost in the first round again the next year. After the 11 run Dirk was done, got swept the next year, and hasnt done anything. There was no dominance/repeating/nothing..

Im not talking about missed regular season games.:oldlol:

What?

Dirk was done in 07? He just led an average roster to 67 wins and had a great regular season.

The Warriors series was absolutely not about what happened in 06. Absurd point...even for you...terrible.

After 11 Dirk was done? What? He was durable throughout a shortened lockout season coming off crazy offseason circumstances being sick and playing internationally....and then put up 27/6/2 in the playoffs.

What the **** are you talking about? Not to mention that Dirk is no longer in his athletic prime and is getting older...it's natural to see this.

Again...horrid points.

And why do you discount Dirk's international play so much? Those games are more physical than NBA games as there aren't bailout calls and you can actually play defense...especially against bigs like Dirk.

[DMAVS41]

wow is this true? Because Gasol was better in 2010 than he was in 2009. but these silly stats seems to suggest he was way way better in 2009.

Also thats pretty damning for how muchs mavs uses defensive rapm to assess total defensive impact.. Guess Chandlers defense was more impactful than Pau's offense and defense combined lol


Because you posted the bold? How is it damning if it supports Dirk being more impactful or at least equal to Kobe on defense?

This is the problem with people like you. You think one single stat tells you which player is better. That isn't how they work. But what you can learn is that claims like;

"Kobe is an elite defender"

Are a joke because elite defenders don't have such a negative impact on defense like Kobe does.

See....Chandler is a very good defender and I'm not surprised he grades out very well on this.

I'm also not surprised Kobe had negative drapm in 2013 because his defense was abysmal.

[tpols]

What?

Dirk was done in 07? He just led an average roster to 67 wins and had a great regular season.

The Warriors series was absolutely not about what happened in 06. Absurd point...even for you...terrible.

After 11 Dirk was done? What? He was durable throughout a shortened lockout season coming off crazy offseason circumstances being sick and playing internationally....and then put up 27/6/2 in the playoffs.

What the **** are you talking about? Not to mention that Dirk is no longer in his athletic prime and is getting older...it's natural to see this.

Again...horrid points.

And why do you discount Dirk's international play so much? Those games are more physical than NBA games as there aren't bailout calls and you can actually play defense...especially against bigs like Dirk.

In a first round sweep.:roll: What does it matter? Those are sure some great stats for getting your ass handed to you..

[tpols]

[/B]


Because you posted the bold? How is it damning if it supports Dirk being more impactful or at least equal to Kobe on defense?

This is the problem with people like you. You think one single stat tells you which player is better. That isn't how they work. But what you can learn is that claims like;

"Kobe is an elite defender"

Are a joke because elite defenders don't have such a negative impact on defense like Kobe does.

See....Chandler is a very good defender and I'm not surprised he grades out very well on this.

I'm also not surprised Kobe had negative drapm in 2013 because his defense was abysmal.
I was mocking you.. your name is even quoted in the post lol

[DMAVS41]

How am I backtracking when I clearly stated I didnt agree with it from the get go?

Also, you really need to stop acting like that is all I use...

It's not like I'm here saying Gasol is better than Kobe because he has better rapm numbers or something.

So the straw man arguments keep coming from you.

And of course you don't like them...Kobe fans hate pretty much all stats. Other than ppg and point totals...

But what is funny is that you want to ignore Kobe's first few years but then add up all the totals like the guy earlier.

Kobe scored like 3k points his first 3 years....somehow I doubt you Kobe fans want to ignore that on his career totals

[DMAVS41]

In a first round sweep.:roll: What does it matter? Those are sure some great stats for getting your ass handed to you..

LOL...more terrible arguments. You are basically saying;

"yea...he played well, but he didn't have the team to win"

That isn't the point you were trying to make. You said Dirk was "done" after 06 and 11...and that just isn't true.

How again was Kobe better than Dirk in 06 like you claimed? Dat tpols logic really hurting you son...

Please stop before you continue to tangle yourself all up


And I'll ask again...why should we just ignore all the international play from Dirk in which Kobe hasn't played nearly as much?

http://archive.fiba.com/pages/eng/fa/p/q/dirk%20nowitzki/pid//_//players.html

Those games don't count as wear and tear I'm assuming...LOL

[tpols]

LOL...more terrible arguments.

How again was Kobe better than Dirk in 06 like you claimed? Dat tpols logic really hurting you son...

Please stop before you continue to tangle yourself all up

Im talking about the ability to sustain multiple long playoff runs.. to repeat and have a string of dominance. You're jumping to a totally different argument right now.

Kobe's been on teams that have gone back to back to back finals and sustained many long repeats.. Dirk has not. Dirk has flamed out after his runs both times.. one with a humiliating first round loss to an 8 seed, and another a first round sweep which you just attempted to compare to a 7 game series that was hardly fought out.:oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

Im talking about the ability to sustain multiple long playoff runs.. to repeat and have a string of dominance. You're jumping to a totally different argument right now.

Kobe's been on teams that have gone back to back to back finals and sustained many long repeats.. Dirk has not. Dirk has flamed out after his runs both times.. one with a humiliating first round loss to an 8 seed, and another a first round sweep which you just attempted to compare to a 7 game series that was hardly fought out.:oldlol:

That is simply a team strength argument though outside of 1 series in his career. Which had absolutely nothing to do with 06 and you know it...

This is my point. With all you Kobe stans...literally every argument you make is some version of "5 rings"...

You can't talk about anything else. Dirk's play in the playoffs has been every bit as good or better than Kobe's in the years above...the difference was team strength.

I've seen you make this argument against Duncan as well. It's awful...

[tpols]

That is simply a team strength argument though outside of 1 series in his career. Which had absolutely nothing to do with 06 and you know it...

This is my point. With all you Kobe stans...literally every argument you make is some version of "5 rings"...

You can't talk about anything else. Dirk's play in the playoffs has been every bit as good or better than Kobe's in the years above...the difference was team strength.

No it isnt because Dirk had the team in 2007 but went out in the worst way possible. Dirks team strength was great after the 06 loss and then DIRK collapsed in the playoffs.. not his supporting cast.

[DMAVS41]

No it isnt because Dirk had the team in 2007 but went out in the worst way possible. Dirks team strength was great after the 06 loss and then DIRK collapsed in the playoffs.. not his supporting cast.

Dirk's supporting cast in 07 was not "great", but I already said 07 was on Dirk.

But not because of what happened in 06...that is just beyond silly...especially given his regular season.

It's about having "the team"...and Kobe has just had "the team" so often throughout his career.


This is what every conversation boils down to about Dirk and or Kobe.

The 07 series and Kobe's loaded rosters allowing him to win more in the playoffs.

Because that is all you really have. I would love to see an alternate reality in which Kobe had to play on teams with the kind of help Dirk had...oh how many so called "flame outs" would there be...LOL

You yourself admitted that Dirk could have been a top 10 player in the right circumstances. What better circumstances of this era are available than Kobe's? 8 years with prime/peak Shaq...then 08 through 11 with stacked rosters.

[tpols]

Dirk's supporting cast in 07 was not "great", but I already said 07 was on Dirk.

But not because of what happened in 06...that is just beyond silly...especially given his regular season.

It's about having "the team"...and Kobe has just had "the team" so often throughout his career.


This is what every conversation boils down to about Dirk and or Kobe.

The 07 series and Kobe's loaded rosters allowing him to win more in the playoffs.

Because that is all you really have. I would love to see an alternate reality in which Kobe had to play on teams with the kind of help Dirk had...oh how many so called "flame outs" would there be...LOL

You can choose to live in a world solely based on hypotheticals.. while the rest of us stick with what actually happened.


I already said somehwere in this thread Dirk couldve been 5 or more so spots higher on lists if he had more favorable teams in some years.. but it didnt happen.:oldlol:

If Kevin Garnett came up along David Robinson and had the spurs management his whole career he would be ranked over Duncan had he played in Minnesota. But it didnt happen, and we can only know for sure what did.

[DMAVS41]

You can choose to live in a world solely based on hypotheticals.. while the rest of us stick with what actually happened.


I already said somehwere in this thread Dirk couldve been 5 or more so spots higher on lists if he had more favorable teams in some years.. but it didnt happen.:oldlol:

If Kevin Garnett came up along David Robinson and had the spurs management his whole career he would be ranked over Duncan had he played in Minnesota. But it didnt happen, and we can only know for sure what did.

What?

Your entire argument about durability is completely based on hypotheticals...and even worse, there is no evidence to support your conclusions.

And even worse...you completely ignore Dirk's international play as well.

How can you accuse me of this when one of your main arguments against Dirk is not only based on a hypothetical and flies in the face of evidence as Dirk has maintained extraordinary durability being the main guy on a team for most of his career...winning 50 plus 11 straight years and playing a heavy load internationally as well.

And you want us to assume he's going to break down playing on better teams throughout his career? With a clear bigger margin of error to advance in the playoffs? That is what you don't get...

Makes no sense.

[DMAVS41]

You can choose to live in a world solely based on hypotheticals.. while the rest of us stick with what actually happened.


I already said somehwere in this thread Dirk couldve been 5 or more so spots higher on lists if he had more favorable teams in some years.. but it didnt happen.:oldlol:

If Kevin Garnett came up along David Robinson and had the spurs management his whole career he would be ranked over Duncan had he played in Minnesota. But it didnt happen, and we can only know for sure what did.

Also, I never said Dirk was better than Kobe. I just posted the numbers because I thought they were interesting...I even cut off Kobe's first 3 to 4 years as well to make it more fair.

The rest turned into a red herring about a few Kobe stans accusing Dirk of being a huge liability defensively...and then you coming in claiming Kobe is an elite defender with nothing other than subjectivity to back it up.

I've repeatedly said that Kobe is a better defender than Dirk...despite what the numbers say (again...funny that you accuse me of only going by the numbers...but even when they support my favorite player...I go against them here). What I've said...is that Kobe's impact defensively is not great enough to warrant "elite" status or give him the nod in any real way over a guy like Dirk.

That is what I use the numbers for...simply to show what can't be claimed. I don't use them or hold to them so strongly to say Gasol and Chandler are better than Kobe...as rapm would say.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Also, I never said Dirk was better than Kobe. I just posted the numbers because I thought they were interesting...I even cut off Kobe's first 3 to 4 years as well to make it more fair.

The rest turned into a red herring about a few Kobe stans accusing Dirk of being a huge liability defensively...and then you coming in claiming Kobe is an elite defender with nothing other than subjectivity to back it up.

I've repeatedly said that Kobe is a better defender than Dirk...despite what the numbers say (again...funny that you accuse me of only going by the numbers...but even when they support my favorite player...I go against them here). What I've said...is that Kobe's impact defensively is not great enough to warrant "elite" status or give him the nod in any real way over a guy like Dirk.

That is what I use the numbers for...simply to show what can't be claimed. I don't use them or hold to them so strongly to say Gasol and Chandler are better than Kobe...as rapm would say.

If it can't be claimed "objectively" that Kobe is an elite defender then it can't be claimed "objectively" that Pau Gasol was a more impactful player in the playoffs than Tyson Chandler. So go ahead and choose which agenda is more important to you and we can carry on pretending that particular statistic is actually meaningful in any way.

[DMAVS41]

If it can't be claimed "objectively" that Kobe is an elite defender then it can't be claimed "objectively" that Pau Gasol was a more impactful player in the playoffs than Tyson Chandler. So go ahead and choose which agenda is more important to you and we can carry on pretending that particular statistic is actually meaningful in any way.

Just using rapm? You are right...absolutely.

But I never said we should only use 1 thing. I'm for using everything in that objective sense.

I can objectively show you why Gasol is better than Chandler, but again...do we really need to debate this? I mean, I know you love to degrade Gasol, but are you so far gone that you actually believe that Tyson Chandler was as good as 09 and 10 Gasol?

If so...then we can proceed to debate that, but I'm hoping we don't have to.

Or, I could just concede that issue and win now what has become a Kobe vs Dirk debate...as you would have to admit that Dirk is better than Kobe using your own standards of such a strong holding to rapm.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Just using rapm? You are right...absolutely.

But I never said we should only use 1 thing. I'm for using everything in that objective sense.

I can objectively show you why Gasol is better than Chandler, but again...do we really need to debate this? I mean, I know you love to degrade Gasol, but are you so far gone that you actually believe that Tyson Chandler was as good as 09 and 10 Gasol?

If so...then we can proceed to debate that, but I'm hoping we don't have to.

Or, I could just concede that issue and win now what has become a Kobe vs Dirk debate...as you would have to admit that Dirk is better than Kobe using your own standards of such a strong holding to rapm.

The third option of course would be to to admit the RAPM or any plus/minus data for that matter has so much variance from year to year that citing as the lone "objective" source of information is moronic. But that would require some self awareness and reflection. Are you capable of that?

[DMAVS41]

The third option of course would be to to admit the RAPM or any plus/minus data for that matter has so much variance from year to year that citing as the lone "objective" source of information is moronic. But that would require some self awareness and reflection. Are you capable of that?

I don't site it as the lone source of objectivity though. You do.

I didn't even use it until you brought it up concerning Gasol and Chandler.

I don't strictly adhere to it. You won't see me claiming that Gasol is better than Kobe...although that would work with rapm some years.

I offered individual defensive rating. I offered performance on/off with not regularization or adjustment....and I offered team defensive rating when on court as well.

And we could go on.

What are you offering objectively as evidence that Kobe is an elite defender overall....and that is the point.

Kobe, at times, is an elite defender...his on ball guarding skills are first rate...and his instincts are borderline scary at times. The problem is that throughout his career he has become increasingly more lazy and gambled...and his overall defensive impact is not elite.

A note on this, a big reason why Kobe gets all defensive honors is because coaches think of the honors differently than we do when debating players. I've heard a number of coaches say the reason they vote Kobe is that if they needed a defensive stop late in a game on a perimeter player...they'd pick Kobe to be the defender.

And I agree! At least in his prime...the problem is that he's not engaged enough. And so his overall defensive impact really suffers as the numbers suggest.

And you continue to not support your claim about Dirk being a negative defender. but Dirk from 03 through 11 was absolutely not a liability on defense. You are always talking about coaches, so look up what Carlisle says about Dirk defensively...Dirk isn't a great defender, but he's not some huge liability that you claim. If he was, none of the defensive things the Mavs have been able to do at times would be possible.

So when I watch...I see Kobe making a lot of defensive errors and see him being very lazy at times. Then I go to the numbers and see his defensive impact, at least statistically, is not elite. So why should I think otherwise until someone provides me with real evidence as to Kobe's defensive impact being elite? Elite defensive impact i what a guy like Duncan or KG or Ben Wallace provide. And there are levels and levels before you reach a guy like Kobe. Artest, Kidd, Marion, Battier, Bowen, Noah, Howard...and many others have had bigger overall defensive impacts than Kobe. And there is more...guys like Chandler, Deng, Kirilenko (peak), Asik, Bogut, Iggy, Paul George...

But back to drapm and Kobe. Why is it that Kobe grades out the best in 2008 on defense? A year pretty much everyone agrees was his best defensive year of his career...or at least his best since early in the decade. Does that not give you pause that it is worth something? You can't capture everything with one number, but drapm and rapm in general is better than just what you provide...which is almost always nothing.
I could go on. All of these guys impacted the defensive end of the floor more than Kobe.

[kenny817]

No it isnt because Dirk had the team in 2007 but went out in the worst way possible. Dirks team strength was great after the 06 loss and then DIRK collapsed in the playoffs.. not his supporting cast.

Erick Dampier as your starting Center is great? Lmfao

The team was terrible. Prime Dirk just beasted

Kobe misses the playoffs in his prime with that same exact team

As a matter of fact...without Shaq or Gasol...did he even win a playoff series?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I don't site it as the lone source of objectivity though. You do.

I didn't even use it until you brought it up concerning Gasol and Chandler.

I don't strictly adhere to it. You won't see me claiming that Gasol is better than Kobe...although that would work with rapm some years.

I offered individual defensive rating. I offered performance on/off with not regularization or adjustment....and I offered team defensive rating when on court as well.

And we could go on.

What are you offering objectively as evidence that Kobe is an elite defender overall....and that is the point.

Kobe, at times, is an elite defender...his on ball guarding skills are first rate...and his instincts are borderline scary at times. The problem is that throughout his career he has become increasingly more lazy and gambled...and his overall defensive impact is not elite.

A note on this, a big reason why Kobe gets all defensive honors is because coaches think of the honors differently than we do when debating players. I've heard a number of coaches say the reason they vote Kobe is that if they needed a defensive stop late in a game on a perimeter player...they'd pick Kobe to be the defender.

And I agree! At least in his prime...the problem is that he's not engaged enough. And so his overall defensive impact really suffers as the numbers suggest.

And you continue to not support your claim about Dirk being a negative defender. but Dirk from 03 through 11 was absolutely not a liability on defense. You are always talking about coaches, so look up what Carlisle says about Dirk defensively...Dirk isn't a great defender, but he's not some huge liability that you claim. If he was, none of the defensive things the Mavs have been able to do at times would be possible.

So when I watch...I see Kobe making a lot of defensive errors and see him being very lazy at times. Then I go to the numbers and see his defensive impact, at least statistically, is not elite. So why should I think otherwise until someone provides me with real evidence as to Kobe's defensive impact being elite?

Why is it that you think you are able to provide us with your defensive opinion utilizing "objective and subjective" data sources and we are supposed to care but when NBA coaches do it we are supposed to dismiss it?

Do you think NBA coaches don't have access to more costly and reliable "objective data" that blows anything away that you have ever found in a google search?

I never claimed Kobe had an elite defensive impact. That's your exaggeration of what I said. I said he is an elite defensive guard and that championship level defenses were built on big men( NOT HIM). :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

Erick Dampier as your starting Center is great? Lmfao

The team was terrible. Prime Dirk just beasted

Kobe misses the playoffs in his prime with that same exact team

As a matter of fact...without Shaq or Gasol...did he even win a playoff series?


You'll find that everything with Dirk ultimately becomes about the 07 Warriors series because that is all they can really say.

But honestly, I'm getting so sick and tired of hearing about it as the worst thing ever. It simply wasn't.

Through the first 5 games...mind you the Mavs went down 3-1. Dirk put up;

22/12/2 on 54% TS.

Dirk was truly terrible in game 6, but it's a bad sign you get run by 25 when you have a bad night. Not the sign of a "great" team...Kobe had the luxury of playing on teams that could beat the 10 Celtics in a game he goes 6-24 in. Dirk plays poorly and we get run by a far inferior Warriors team by 25. If that isn't telling about the kind of situation each found themselves in...I don't know what is.

Now, we all know he wasn't good, but to act like Dirk was the only reason the Mavs lost is absurd.

Not to mention besides having a truly terrible coach losing his mind...Dirk was dealing with his father have major unexpected surgery right in the middle of the series.

The 07 series was a complete anomaly and wasn't nearly as bad as people claim.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Elite defensive impact i what a guy like Duncan or KG or Ben Wallace provide. And there are levels and levels before you reach a guy like Kobe. Artest, Kidd, Marion, Battier, Bowen, Noah, Howard...and many others have had bigger overall defensive impacts than Kobe. And there is more...guys like Chandler, Deng, Kirilenko (peak), Asik, Bogut, Iggy, Paul George...


Let's see big man, big man, big man, SF, PG, SF,SF,SF,C, C, C, SF, SF, C, SF, SF.

You listed 17 names and only one of them is a guard. :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

Why is it that you think you are able to provide us with your defensive opinion utilizing "objective and subjective" data sources and we are supposed to care but when NBA coaches do it we are supposed to dismiss it?

Do you think NBA coaches don't have access to more costly and reliable "objective data" that blows anything away that you have ever found in a google search?

I never claimed Kobe had an elite defensive impact. That's your exaggeration of what I said. I said he is an elite defensive guard and that championship level defenses were built on big men( NOT HIM). :facepalm

You are confusing what objectivity and subjectivity is.

I don't care about the opinions of coaches when hard data tells a completely different story...and I already told you why I think coaches vote Kobe in. And I have reason to believe this as I've heard a few utter the same stuff about the one possession crap.

Great...so you admit he doesn't have an elite defensive impact. So what is the point in calling him elite? He's not elite. He's a slightly above average defensive player.

I love when you make my point for me. Dirk has been a part of championship level defenses both with and without Tyson Chandler. So you shoot yourself in the foot. We had a top 8 or 9 defense a handful of years and the one thing that remained the same throughout all of them was that the player on the court the most out of anyone was Dirk.

AND HE IS A BIG!!!!!!!!!!!!!

According to your theory...that would be impossible. So either Dirk is capable of playing top 8 defense as a big that spends the most time on the court and he's not a liability...or we all watching a fake game.


Don't you think it's odd that Dirk can lead a championship caliber defense in minutes played a handful of times in his career if he's a defensive negative like you claim?

[DMAVS41]

Let's see big man, big man, big man, SF, PG, SF,SF,SF,C, C, C, SF, SF, C, SF, SF.

You listed 17 names and only one of them is a guard. :facepalm

So you admit that Kobe just doesn't make much of a defensive impact...right?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You are confusing what objectivity and subjectivity is.

I don't care about the opinions of coaches when hard data tells a completely different story...and I already told you why I think coaches vote Kobe in. And I have reason to believe this as I've heard a few utter the same stuff about the one possession crap.

Great...so you admit he doesn't have an elite defensive impact. So what is the point in calling him elite? He's not elite. He's a slightly above average defensive player.

I love when you make my point for me. Dirk has been a part of championship level defenses both with and without Tyson Chandler. So you shoot yourself in the foot. We had a top 8 or 9 defense a handful of years and the one thing that remained the same throughout all of them was that the player on the court the most out of anyone was Dirk.

AND HE IS A BIG!!!!!!!!!!!!!

According to your theory...that would be impossible. So either Dirk is capable of playing top 8 defense as a big that spends the most time on the court and he's not a liability...or we all watching a fake game.


Don't you think it's odd that Dirk can lead a championship caliber defense in minutes played a handful of times in his career if he's a defensive negative like you claim?

:biggums:

Why would it be odd? He was paired with the 2012 Defensive Player of the Year? That's why Cuban offered him 20 million.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So you admit that Kobe just doesn't make much of a defensive impact...right?

Compared to the best big men in the league yeah that's correct.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk;

03 - 9th best defense
05 - 9th best defense
06 - 11the best defense
07 - 5th best defense
08 - 9th best defense
11 - 8th best defense
12 - 8th best defense


How is that possible? You just said bigs make the most impact! Dirk was hardly playing with great defensive teams. I mean...Damp was great at times...and was great in the 07 regular season, but outside of him it's not like the Mavs had great defensive teams. In fact, we often struggled to find quality centers that could defend/rebound....and not kill our offense. That is why Chandler was such a breath of fresh air...he not only defended and rebounded, but he actually helped our offense rather than hurting it.

[DMAVS41]

:biggums:

Why would it be odd? He was paired with the 2012 Defensive Player of the Year? That's why Cuban offered him 20 million.

What about all the other years? Like the next year in which they had basically the same defense.

Or in 03...I just posted them.

Even when Damp/Diop were helping out very well defensively, they were dramatically hurt our offense in certain situations.

This is why overall impact is so much more important than the way you look at things.

Also, your points about Cuban once again don't make sense. You keep using him offering him 20 million as evidence of how valuable he was. If he was so valuable and Cuban/Nellie/Carlisle all thought so...why the **** didn't we just pay him his 60 million over 4 years? Don't you find it odd that the team that just won the title and knows him best...didn't even offer him more than a 1 year deal? ROFL...love when your logic smacks you right back in the face.

And why are we debating Chandler and Cuban anymore? Cuban was right...Chandler's inept play and impact on the Knicks is evidence of this. Hurt and over-rated...

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Dirk;

03 - 9th best defense
05 - 9th best defense
06 - 11the best defense
07 - 5th best defense
08 - 9th best defense
11 - 8th best defense
12 - 8th best defense


How is that possible? You just said bigs make the most impact! Dirk was hardly playing with great defensive teams. I mean...Damp was great at times...and was great in the 07 regular season, but outside of him it's not like the Mavs had great defensive teams. In fact, we often struggled to find quality centers that could defend/rebound....and not kill our offense. That is why Chandler was such a breath of fresh air...he not only defended and rebounded, but he actually helped our offense rather than hurting it.

I'm not sure why you think that's good...

If you want to know what championship level defense looks like you should try looking at the teams that actually won the championship....not flamed out in the first round.

00 1st best defense
01 21st best defense*
02 7th best defense
03 3rd best defense
04 2nd best defense
05 1st best defense
06 9th best defense
07 2nd best defense
08 1st best defense
09 6th best defense
10 4th best defense
11 8th best defense
12 4th best defense
13 9th best defense


8-9 isn't going to cut 90% of the time

You skipped a few years on your list by the way

04 26th best defense
09 17th best defense
10 12th best defense
13 19th best defense
14 23rd best defense

If you wan't to know why the Mavs have been serviceable defensively despite Dirk I imagine you will find the answer from 03-05.

[DMAVS41]

But you still haven't really explained your point.

The only thing you've said that makes any sense and that I completely agree with was when you said Shaq, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Duncan, and Hakeem were all better than Dirk.

If that is your point...that those players were better than Dirk...and in large part were better because of their defense/rebounding impact...I totally agree.

But this isn't about Dirk vs those guys.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What about all the other years? Like the next year in which they had basically the same defense.

Or in 03...I just posted them.

Even when Damp/Diop were helping out very well defensively, they were dramatically hurt our offense in certain situations.

This is why overall impact is so much more important than the way you look at things.

Also, your points about Cuban once again don't make sense. You keep using him offering him 20 million as evidence of how valuable he was. If he was so valuable and Cuban/Nellie/Carlisle all thought so...why the **** didn't we just pay him his 60 million over 4 years? Don't you find it odd that the team that just won the title and knows him best...didn't even offer him more than a 1 year deal? ROFL...love when your logic smacks you right back in the face.

And why are we debating Chandler and Cuban anymore? Cuban was right...Chandler's inept play and impact on the Knicks is evidence of this. Hurt and over-rated...


What about the other years? They were steamrolled out of the playoffs the other years. Put the 2011 Mavs in front of past champions and they would have been destroyed as well. The baseline of what constitutes a championship level defense isn't the weakest defense to win the title in the last 15 years.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

But you still haven't really explained your point.

The only thing you've said that makes any sense and that I completely agree with was when you said Shaq, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Duncan, and Hakeem were all better than Dirk.

If that is your point...that those players were better than Dirk...and in large part were better because of their defense/rebounding impact...I totally agree.

But this isn't about Dirk vs those guys.

Its much easier to turn this into a championship level (elite) defense

PG
SG Kobe
SF
PF
C

Then this

PG
SG
SF
PF Dirk
C

That's the point.

[DMAVS41]

I'm not sure why you think that's good...

If you want to know what championship level defense looks like you should try looking at the teams that actually won the championship....not flamed out in the first round.

00 1st best defense
01 21st best defense*
02 7th best defense
03 3rd best defense
04 2nd best defense
05 1st best defense
06 9th best defense
07 2nd best defense
08 1st best defense
09 6th best defense
10 4th best defense
11 8th best defense
12 4th best defense
13 9th best defense


8-9 isn't going to cut 90% of the time

You skipped a few years on your list by the way

04 26th best defense
09 17th best defense
10 12th best defense
13 19th best defense
14 23rd best defense

If you wan't to know why the Mavs have been serviceable defensively despite Dirk I imagine you will find the answer from 03-05.

I didn't say it was "so good"...I said it was good considering the supporting casts Dirk has had defensively. He's had average center play...not much depth around him...and weak ass perimeter defense many years as well.

7 of the years you listed above have comparable defenses to the years I listed for Dirk.

Again...this is why you have to talk about the actual teams and overall impact.

I didn't "skip" years...I listed years in which the Mavs had decent to good defenses. And did so with this huge liability you claim...

Even though that liability grades out better than Kobe and actually improves his teams defense...

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I didn't say it was "so good"...I said it was good considering the supporting casts Dirk has had defensively. He's had average center play...not much depth around him...and weak ass perimeter defense many years as well.

7 of the years you listed above have comparable defenses to the years I listed for Dirk.

Again...this is why you have to talk about the actual teams and overall impact.

I didn't "skip" years...I listed years in which the Mavs had decent to good defenses. And did so with this huge liability you claim...

Even though that liability grades out better than Kobe and actually improves his teams defense...

So what happened in 04?

[DMAVS41]

Its much easier to turn this into a championship level (elite) defense

PG
SG Kobe
SF
PF
C

Then this

PG
SG
SF
PF Dirk
C

That's the point.

I disagree. It's easier, but not much easier. And also, while doing that...you'd have to find a pf like Gasol that can defend and score and pass...and that is much harder to find than guys like Terry, Chandler, old washed up Marion...cast off players.

That is the point you are missing. You aren't winning a title with Taj Gibson and Noah playing pf and center next to Kobe...even though they'd be the best defensive team Kobe ever had.

Not to mention you have to find a wing defender to guard the other teams best wing player so Kobe doesn't tire out have to defend all game. So you need all the above plus Ariza and Artest...LOL

[DMAVS41]

So what happened in 04?

What do you mean?

Have you looked at the roster? I can't believe it wasn't the worst defensive team ever...hurt Nash, old Finley, Jamison, Walker...Najera and Bradley playing center...playing run and gun with the 2nd fastest pace in the league.

You are going to put that on Dirk? Seriously...what the **** are you smoking?

I never said Dirk was a defensive anchor or a great defender. I simply said he wasn't a huge liability. And you have yet to provide any evidence as such. And I can list many years in which Kobe's team was poor defensively...no need to go that route.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I disagree. It's easier, but not much easier. And also, while doing that...you'd have to find a pf like Gasol that can defend and score and pass...and that is much harder to find than guys like Terry, Chandler, old washed up Marion...cast off players.

That is the point you are missing. You aren't winning a title with Taj Gibson and Noah playing pf and center next to Kobe...even though they'd be the best defensive team Kobe ever had.

Not to mention you have to find a wing defender to guard the other teams best wing player so Kobe doesn't tire out have to defend all game. So you need all the above plus Ariza and Artest...LOL

Terry, Chandler, and Marion are castoffs but you really think the Lakers are sweating getting an Ariza (who they got for Brian Cook :facepalm ) or Artest (who they got for the midlevel)

One dimensional wing players are a dime a dozen.

Elite defensive centers are rare. That's why they get paid big bucks. Thats why even a scrub backup defensive center like Asik gets paid.

[DMAVS41]

Terry, Chandler, and Marion are castoffs but you really think the Lakers are sweating getting an Ariza (who they got for Brian Cook :facepalm ) or Artest (who they got for the midlevel)

One dimensional wing players are a dime a dozen.

Elite defensive centers are rare. That's why they get paid big bucks. Thats why even a scrub backup defensive center like Asik gets paid.

I never compared Ariza to Chandler.

Seriously...what posts are you reading?

Guess what. 20/10/4 big men like Gasol are even more rare than guys like Chandler...that's why Gasol is way better than Chandler ever was.

ROFL....:facepalm

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What do you mean?

Have you looked at the roster? I can't believe it wasn't the worst defensive team ever...hurt Nash, old Finley, Jamison, Walker...Najera and Bradley playing center...playing run and gun with the 2nd fastest pace in the league.

You are going to put that on Dirk? Seriously...what the **** are you smoking?

Did they age a hundred years from 03 to 04? Was Dirk the same player he was in 03 to 04 to 05 because if he was then we know the top ten defensive finishes have little to do with him? :confusedshrug:

[fpliii]

:biggums:

How do you guys keep these threads going. Is either of you still discussing the original premise? These conversations always shift topics a dozen times.

[DMAVS41]

Did they age a hundred years from 03 to 04? Was Dirk the same player he was in 03 to 04 to 05 because if he was then we know the top ten defensive finishes have little to do with him? :confusedshrug:

I agree they have little to do with him. he's not a defensive anchor.

your claim is that he's a huge liability. do you not see the difference in a player being an average defender and not a huge liability?

Also, yes, a lot changed from 03 to 04...this just shows how little you know about the Mavs.

We played at a slower pace. Nash was healthy for the most part...Finley was better in 03...and we played Lafrentz, Najera, and Bradley way more minutes.

We didn't even really play centers in 04.

Totally different teams...again, you really should learn your history before you post this shit. You don't know anything about the Mavs...LOL

And we added two terrible defenders in Jamison and Walker in 04 as well...:no:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I never compared Ariza to Chandler.

Seriously...what posts are you reading?

Guess what. 20/10/4 big men like Gasol are even more rare than guys like Chandler...that's why Gasol is way better than Chandler ever was.

ROFL....:facepalm

The difference is you are assuming that the Lakers needed that post offense. As if they were not already beasting with a lesser offensive player in Bynum prior to his injury. Hell even in the Smush Parker/Kwame Brown years the Lakers had a top 8 or better offense.

[DMAVS41]

:biggums:

How do you guys keep these threads going. Is either of you still discussing the original premise? These conversations always shift topics a dozen times.

No, he hijacked the thread claiming Dirk is a huge liability on defense and that Chandler is more valuable than Pau Gasol.

[DMAVS41]

The difference is you are assuming that the Lakers needed that post offense. As if they were not already beasting with a lesser offensive player in Bynum prior to his injury. Hell even in the Smush Parker/Kwame Brown years the Lakers had a top 8 or better offense.

LOL...two can play that game

The Mavs were already successful prior to Chandler and you assume we needed Chandler. As proven the following year when the defense maintained with Haywood and Mahinmi playing center. We already had a top 9 defense or better even in the run and gun days with worse centers...

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I agree they have little to do with him. he's not a defensive anchor.

your claim is that he's a huge liability. do you not see the difference in a player being an average defender and not a huge liability?

Also, yes, a lot changed from 03 to 04...this just shows how little you know about the Mavs.

We played at a slower pace. Nash was healthy for the most part...Finley was better in 03...and we played Lafrentz, Najera, and Bradley way more minutes.

We didn't even really play centers in 04.

Totally different teams...again, you really should learn your history before you post this shit. You don't know anything about the Mavs...LOL

And we added two terrible defenders in Jamison and Walker in 04 as well...:no:

So the Mavericks didn't play any Centers to protect Dirk in 04 and their defensive efficiency subsequently tanked.

Read that sentence again slowly. Read it one more time. You are welcome.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

No, he hijacked the thread claiming Dirk is a huge liability on defense and that Chandler is more valuable than Pau Gasol.

Where did I claim Chandler was more valuable than Pau Gasol.... oh yeah "objectively" that was true citing your own statistic.

[DMAVS41]

So the Mavericks didn't play any Centers to protect Dirk in 04 and their defensive efficiency subsequently tanked.

Read that sentence again slowly. Read it one more time. You are welcome.

Moron. You are having this conversation with a ghost. Here is reality;

You: Dirk is a huge defensive liability

Me: No he isn't...he's not great, and he's not an anchor, but he makes a positive impact on his team and grades out just fine objectively



You read that as me saying Dirk is a beast on defense. I have never said as such. My claim is very modest...it's that Dirk is not a liability on defense.

Please get this through your head.

Also, where was Kobe's defensive impact in 05?

[DMAVS41]

Where did I claim Chandler was more valuable than Pau Gasol.... oh yeah "objectively" that was true citing your own statistic.

It is what you are getting at.

If you don't think so...then this whole conversation is even more pointless than it already is...

And it's not my stat nor did I claim it tells you which player is better. More red herrings and straw men.

Yes, lets continue to debate Chandler for another 24 hours to distract from the true topic at hand.

You want to know what is really pathetic? Kobe having the 20th ranked defense with ****ing Dwight Howard on his team...that is pathetic. Also had the 21st ranked defense in 01 with Shaq on his team. Also had the worst defense in 05 when he wasn't surrounded by his usual level of ungodly help and coaching...

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Moron. You are having this conversation with a ghost. Here is reality;

You: Dirk is a huge defensive liability

Me: No he isn't...he's not great, and he's not an anchor, but he makes a positive impact on his team and grades out just fine objectively



You read that as me saying Dirk is a beast on defense. I have never said as such. My claim is very modest...it's that Dirk is not a liability on defense.

Please get this through your head.

If you are 7 foot tall and need another one dimensional Center to play along side you or else you are going to have the 3rd worst defense in the league you are a defensive liability. Its really that simple.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You know DMAVS is rattled when he starts clamoring about coaching

:roll:

[DMAVS41]

If you are 7 foot tall and need another one dimensional Center to play along side you or else you are going to have the 3rd worst defense in the league you are a defensive liability. Its really that simple.

What? We didn't even have that in 03. We played Lafrentz and Najera big minutes.

In 04 we didn't even play a center or try to play defense...again, you really need to learn the history of the Mavs and the NBA.

We went complete run and gun...and had the worst perimeter you could imagin with an injured Nash, old Finley...with the likes of Jamison and Walker playing big minutes with no center.

Again, Dirk is not an anchor!!!! He's also not a center. He's a hybrid sf/pf that I have never claimed could anchor a defense.

[DMAVS41]

You know DMAVS is rattled when he starts clamoring about coaching

:roll:

You know Yao is rattled when he's hammering dirk for 04, but ignores Kobe's dreadful team defenses at times...

04 - Mavs had the 26th best defense......and had the 2nd fastest pace

05 - Lakers had the 30th best defense...and had the 14th fastest pace

When you have the worst defense in the league and play at the 14th fastest pace and you don't have elite big men surrounding you...you know you are a liability

:cheers:

Also, you can't just ignore coaching...it's very under-rated here. You think the Mavs lose the 06 finals or the 07 Warriors series with Phil Jackson instead of Avery? Please get your head examined if you actually think coaching doesn't matter.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What? We didn't even have that in 03. We played Lafrentz and Najera big minutes.

In 04 we didn't even play a center or try to play defense...again, you really need to learn the history of the Mavs and the NBA.

We went complete run and gun...and had the worst perimeter you could imagin with an injured Nash, old Finley...with the likes of Jamison and Walker playing big minutes with no center.

Again, Dirk is not an anchor!!!! He's also not a center. He's a hybrid sf/pf that I have never claimed could anchor a defense.

I hate to break it to you, but if you are 7 foot tall and the next biggest player on the court is Antoine Walker....you are the center. But I guess its cool because you didn't try playing defense that year :facepalm

[mehyaM24]

as much as i like dirk, he is a defensive liablity. always was. just look at the defense without chandler in 09 and 10 and 2012 post chandler

something like 9th ---> 18th

[DMAVS41]

Here is the best part of it all...

Team offensive rating on/off for their careers

On Dirk 112.4 Off Dirk 103.6
On Kobe 110.8 Off Kobe 103.6


Team defense on/off

On Dirk 104.9 Off Dirk 106.8
On Kobe 105.6 Off Kobe 105.5

So not only does Dirk improve the offense more...he improves the defense more.

And to make matters worse...Kobe/Dirk played with virtually the same offensive help and Kobe played with better defensive help...yet Dirk's teams had better offenses and defenses overall compared to Kobe when both were on the floor.

Yet Dirk is a liability? Say what?

[DMAVS41]

as much as i like dirk, he is a defensive liablity. always was. just look at the defense without chandler in 09 and 10 and 2012 post chandler

something like 9th ---> 18th

In 2012, after Chandler left, we had the 8th best defense...

In 2008 we had the 9th best defense


Why not true for Kobe? Just look at the defense without Shaq in 05 (worst in league), 06 (15th in league), and 07 (24th in league)

:confusedshrug:

The look at it after Gasol/Bynum declined and left...12 (13th in league) and 13 (20th in league...WITH DWIGHT HOWARD)

[DMAVS41]

I hate to break it to you, but if you are 7 foot tall and the next biggest player on the court is Antoine Walker....you are the center. But I guess its cool because you didn't try playing defense that year :facepalm

Dirk can't do what centers do. Never claimed he could...

I see your problem now...you want Dirk to fit into the mold of 7 footers when that isn't him at all.

You do realize that if Dirk could anchor a defense like Duncan or some of the guys you've mentioned...he'd have a case for GOAT...right?

Jesus man...the standards for Dirk on here are incredibly high for a player you guys supposedly don't think much of.

And no, I'm not cool with it...04 was a disaster and a complete failure on the part of Cuban and Nelson to build the right team...we had some really nice things going in 03 despite playing some weak players a lot of minutes. We should have built on that and tried to improve our team and continue to play defense and at a reasonable pace. Instead we went the other way and it was a disaster....

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Dirk can't do what centers do. Never claimed he could...

I see your problem now...you want Dirk to fit into the mold of 7 footers when that isn't him at all.

You do realize that if Dirk could anchor a defense like Duncan or some of the guys you've mentioned...he'd have a case for GOAT...right?

Jesus man...the standards for Dirk on here are incredibly high for a player you guys supposedly don't think much of.

So its cool to compare Kobe to Ben Wallace but If I claim a 7 footer playing center is a center I'm an asshole. :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

So its cool to compare Kobe to Ben Wallace but If I claim a 7 footer playing center is a center I'm an asshole. :oldlol:

I was listing elite defenders...which I thought you had claimed Kobe was.

You cleared that up and made it clear that you don't think Kobe is an elite defender.

:confusedshrug:

[Audio One]

Dirk is a 7 foot defensive liability and has been for the majority of his career. One fluke run doesn't erase that.

:applause: