Intelligence: Nature or Nurture

[9erempiree]

What you guys think. I think message boards in general have dumb'd me down. :facepalm

There are some good discussions which forces people to think, in return, we feel brighter and more intelligent.

Some say, you are born with intelligence.

What do you think?

[dr.hee]

What you guys think. I think message boards in general have dumb'd me down. :facepalm

There are some good discussions which forces people to think, in return, we feel brighter and more intelligent.

Some say, you are born with intelligence.

What do you think?

It's a combination of both nature and nurture obviously.

Are we done?

[Akrazotile]

It's a combination of both nature and nurture obviously.

Are we done?


I think that pretty much settles it.


See everyone next week.

[Budadiiii]

It's a combination of both nature and nurture obviously.

Are we done?
80% nature, 20% nurture.

[9erempiree]

Everyone please explain in one paragraph on both ends of the argument.

Use some sources if you have too.

Thank you.

[K Xerxes]

Everyone please explain in one paragraph on both ends of the argument.

Use some sources if you have too.

Thank you.

What exactly are you expecting from 'sources'? A comprehensive study detailing every gene that expresses 'intelligence' as a phenotype? If you cannot work out the flaws in that, then you need to study some basic biology.

You haven't even provided a definition for 'intelligence'. Awful topic as usual - I suppose your stupidity isn't confined to basketball.

[9erempiree]

What exactly are you expecting from 'sources'? A comprehensive study detailing every gene that expresses 'intelligence' as a phenotype? If you cannot work out the flaws in that, then you need to study some basic biology.

You haven't even provided a definition for 'intelligence'. Awful topic as usual - I suppose your stupidity isn't confined to basketball.

I know it is basic biology. That is why I am asking for an elaborate response. We need argument for either or. Not both.

[miller-time]

I know it is basic biology. That is why I am asking for an elaborate response. We need argument for either or. Not both.

The argument is that it is both. It isn't one or the other.

[dr.hee]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/article/media_slots/photos/000/927/962/BillRussellYawn_original.gif

[DeuceWallaces]

Can someone just send this clown back to the NBA forum.

[MavsSuperFan]

Combo of both.

Although your potential for learning is genetic imo
How much knowledge you acquire is related to your circumstances.

Eg. If you are born in a tribe hidden in the middle of the amazon jungle and your tribe has been separated from the rest of humanity for thousands of years, you could have a 200+ IQ and it wouldnt amount to anything.

[niko]

I think that pretty much settles it.


See everyone next week.
Who brings the cookies next time?

[bladefd]

I know it is basic biology. That is why I am asking for an elaborate response. We need argument for either or. Not both.

Which do we need to survive? We need argument for either water or solid food. Not both. One paragraph each.

[Swaggin916]

Intelligence comes from hundreds of thousands of years of trial and error by our ancestors.

[Milbuck]

"Intelligence" is that deep, underlying sexual urge within every man that pushes us to give other men rim jobs. I'm by far the most intelligent poster here.

[Dizzle-2k7]

51% NURTURE
49% NATURE

nurture> all . you can come from any background, but if you get raised and cared for the right way, you can succeed. FACT.

[step_back]

It's a combination of both nature and nurture obviously.

Are we done?

This,

If you think this message board has dumbed you down go and read a book instead of spending most your time on this site.

[miller-time]

nurture> all . you can come from any background, but if you get raised and cared for the right way, you can succeed. FACT.

But it is our nature to be predisposed to both teach and learn :D

[dr.hee]

This,

If you think this message board has dumbed you down go and read a book instead of spending most your time on this site.

I'm too dumb for read book.

[Dresta]

51% NURTURE
49% NATURE

nurture> all . you can come from any background, but if you get raised and cared for the right way, you can succeed. FACT.
Success does not equal intelligence. Most people who 'succeed' are utter morons. FACT.

[MavsSuperFan]

Success does not equal intelligence. Most people who 'succeed' are utter morons. FACT.
THis post makes me think you are bitter that you have failed :lol

But intelligence isnt the major factor related to success imo. I think social skills are more important than anything. Second is persistence.

[shlver]

The argument is that it is both. It isn't one or the other.
I would argue that it's more nurture and environmental input than biology. Other than cases of severe cognitive deficiencies due to mutations in dendrite/synapse formation and the myriad of proteins associated with them, the biological mechanisms of learning/memorization are the same in all people. The instilling of personality traits and interest of learning at a young age where synaptic plasticity is highest is most likely the potentiator of high intelligence.

[-p.tiddy-]

Success does not equal intelligence. Most people who 'succeed' are utter morons. FACT.
success =/= intelligence, that is true

but I do not think it is a "fact" that the majority of successful people are "utter morons" :facepalm


Where did you come up with this "fact" exactly? Did you determine this factoid watching an episode of Kim Kardashian's reality show or something?..."ah look at this dumb celeb, that's it most people that figured out a way to win at life are MORONS!!!"

[Jailblazers7]

Success does not equal intelligence. Most people who 'succeed' are utter morons. FACT.

lol how are you going to arguing with people constantly about the definition of words on here and then misuse fact vs. opinion?

[ROCSteady]

Damn yung...Dresta is a bitter, cynical, nihilist muh fcka. Whose more negative and condescending than this dude on ISH? Mayb DeuceWallaces, that's about it

This man walks by flowers and they shrivel and turn to ash...dogs yelp and whine with anxiety... infants feel their first twinge of hopelessness.

I hope dude is straight

[ace23]

Damn yung...Dresta is a bitter, cynical, nihilist muh fcka. Whose more negative and condescending than this dude on ISH? Mayb DeuceWallaces, that's about it

This man walks by flowers and they shrivel and turn to ash...dogs yelp and whine with anxiety... infants feel their first twinge of hopelessness.

I hope dude is straight
Dude is comedy. I enjoy watching him get into it with other posters.

[Bandito]

THis post makes me think you are bitter that you have failed :lol

But intelligence isnt the major factor related to success imo. I think social skills are more important than anything. Second is persistence.
Ex. Snooki

She succedded but no way shes smart. Shes a vet tech btw.

[ROCSteady]

Dude is comedy. I enjoy watching him get into it with other posters.

Same. He's a bright guy for sure, dude is full of thoughts and convictions on pretty much any subject. Somewhat of an abstract thinker, I respect that. His and pt exchanges were gold.

jus sayin, that dude is not only a hardcore intellectual elitist but also extremely full of pessimism. Dare I say he's almost fatalistic in many of his philosophies :confusedshrug:

Still, he's def no ordinary pawn. I like ppl that don't buy all society's sales techniques hook, line and sinker but sometimes it's like :eek: :cry:

[Dresta]

But intelligence isnt the major factor related to success imo. I think social skills are more important than anything. Second is persistence.
Spot on. Persistence is very important because no matter how brilliant you are, you are still likely to be met with repeated failures throughout your life.

Social skills, schmoozing and 'playing the game' are really the most important things if you want to get ahead, to gain social esteem, and excel in your chosen field.

It is why so many great intellects are overlooked during their lives, and only gain recognition towards the end, or even after their lives. They tend to hurt the vanities of the mediocrities that inevitably dominate in all fields.


lol how are you going to arguing with people constantly about the definition of words on here and then misuse fact vs. opinion?
How are you not going to understand that i was mimicking the idiom of the guy i quoted? What i said is no less of a 'fact' than what i quoted. Bunch of literalists on here smh.

Nevertheless, a highly intelligent person is always more likely to view themselves as a failure, no matter their social position, because they create higher standards for themselves; while most intelligent people are plagued with self-doubt, morons tend to be afflicted with a self-certainty that defies belief. Therefore, considering 'success' is a largely subjective concept, it seems likely to me that far more morons are likely to regard themselves as being successful than intelligent people.

[DonDadda59]

Damn yung...Dresta is a bitter, cynical, nihilist muh fcka. Whose more negative and condescending than this dude on ISH? Mayb DeuceWallaces, that's about it

This man walks by flowers and they shrivel and turn to ash...dogs yelp and whine with anxiety... infants feel their first twinge of hopelessness.

I hope dude is straight

Dresta admiring the glory of nature (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVey6CD3HYk)

[-p.tiddy-]

Nevertheless, a highly intelligent person is always more likely to view themselves as a failure, no matter their social position, because they create higher standards for themselves; while most intelligent people are plagued with self-doubt, morons tend to be afflicted with a self-certainty that defies belief. Therefore, considering 'success' is a largely subjective concept, it seems likely to me that far more morons are likely to regard themselves as being successful than intelligent people.
where do you get this stuff?

intelligence is linked to happiness...being a moron is linked to depression...not the other way around...that works for "success" as well...high income peeps tend to be happier on average than low income peeps...and more intelligent on average...FACT
______________

Their study of 6,870 people showed low intelligence was often linked with lower income and poor mental health, which contributed to unhappiness. (http://www.bbc.com/news/health-19659985)

Lower IQs Linked To Less Happiness (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/250734.php)

More Money Always Leads To More Happiness: Study (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/29/money-and-happiness-study_n_3179345.html)


stop trying to paint this picture where all the geniuses of the world are depressed and lack success just because that is how you view YOURSELF.

[-p.tiddy-]

REALITY:

smart people are more likely to be successful and happy

dumb people are more likely to be unsuccessful and depressed

[DonDadda59]

And thus begins 20+ pages of Tiddy vs Dresta II.

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/attachments/naval-warfare/34405d1385059810-pivotal-moment-indian-navy-induction-newest-aircraft-carrier-tumblr_mssdnaalqc1shm9rjo1_500.gif

[-p.tiddy-]

And thus begins 20+ pages of Tiddy vs Dresta II.

*sigh*...I really don't have the energy for another one of those lol

I probably should have just left it alone...

[Dresta]

where do you get this stuff?

intelligence is linked to happiness...being a moron is linked to depression...not the other way around...that works for "success" as well...high income peeps tend to be happier on average than low income peeps...and more intelligent on average...FACT
______________

Their study of 6,870 people showed low intelligence was often linked with lower income and poor mental health, which contributed to unhappiness. (http://www.bbc.com/news/health-19659985)

Lower IQs Linked To Less Happiness (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/250734.php)

More Money Always Leads To More Happiness: Study (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/29/money-and-happiness-study_n_3179345.html)


stop trying to paint this picture where all the geniuses of the world are depressed and lack success just because that is how you view YOURSELF.
:applause:

Thanks for time and again proving my point about the dangers of scientism, and how it limits critical thinking through its ability to convince morons of just about anything provided there is a bit of data to back it up. Stop taking intellectual short cuts, and try actually reading about the lives of people that the progression of time has shown to be 'geniuses' - take a look at what most of them thought about human kind in general combined with their tendency towards self-criticism, how they always felt they could have produced more and could have done it better, and were often riddled with self-doubt.

You really think posting a couple of frivolous studies does anything to combat this? Well, first, IQ is a terrible measure of intelligence, so that study can be instantly squashed. Secondly, 'depression' in this case has a completely subjective definition, with its measurement having been gleaned from the answers of individuals to personal and subjective questions (i.e. worthless). So you have 2 studies that are correlated by two false measurements and this somehow proves me wrong? Can you be serious? In fact, I DID NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT DEPRESSION, SO WHY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT IT? WHY ARE YOU POSTING COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT STUDIES?

I never said anything about money's relation to happiness either, so i don't know why you felt the need to post that 'study.'

And where do i get this stuff? Well, from my own personal experience with people and through extensive reading of individuals who are generally referred to as being geniuses, that's where. Though, having just looked it up, this tendency for imbeciles to overestimate their worth and for geniuses to underestimate theirs, is recognised in psychology as a natural cognitive bias, and is known as the 'Dunning-Kruger Effect': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

And here:

[QUOTE]across every test, the students at the bottom end of the bell curve held inflated opinions of their own talents, hugely inflated. In one test of logical reasoning, the lowest quartile of students estimated that their skills would put them above more than 60% of their peers when in fact they had beaten out just 12%. To put that misjudgement in perspective, it

[ace23]

But I see everything is all simpleness and happiness in the world of p tiddy, where intelligence=happiness=money :lol . As Dostoevsky said in one of his novels (something like): 'if i could just spend one day in the body of a 250lb merchant's wife, to feel as she does, to think and believe the things she does, that would provide relief from my sufferings' - likewise, imagine how relieving it would be to spend a few days in the oblivious and deluded mess that is p. tiddy's mind and body.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Dresta]

Oh, and looks like creative genius and mental illness are pretty strongly correlated (even though i never mentioned mental illness, p tiddy just had to bring it up so he could get a personal dig in):

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/22/world/the-dark-side-of-creativity-vincent-van-gogh/

and:


By 2012, as many as 30 scientific studies had been completed that uncovered links between creativity and mental illness, particularly disorders that affected mood [source: Hsu].
Researchers conducting one such study of Swedish teenagers discovered straight-A students were four times more likely to develop bipolar disorder, a mental illness marked by alternating moods of elation and depression, illustrating a correlation between intelligence and higher instances of mental illness. As the study subjects' emotional state transitioned from low to high, there was evidence of increased activity in the frontal lobe of the brain. This area is known for regulating creativity.
The study was expanded in 2012 to include more than 1 million participants, and researchers reported a link between artists, authors and scientists and the propensity to develop mental illness. Not only bipolar disorder, but a whole suite of mental illnesses, from drug abuse to anorexia nervosa and depression. A single gene, known as DARPP-32, is suspected to cause the link between intelligence and mental illness. A study found that people with schizophrenia were more likely to have the version of DARPP-32 that boosted performance on tasks involving thinking and filtering of information [source: National Institute of Mental Health].

[-p.tiddy-]

I said "tend"

intelligent people "tend" to be happier "on average"

rich people "tend" to be happier than poor people "on average"

so not that does not mean: intelligence=happiness=money (of course I am just pointing out what you already know)

I even stated earlier
success =/= intelligence, that is true

intelligence =/= happiness...intelligence just makes happiness more likely
being a moron =/= depression...being a moron just makes depression more likely

and
money (success) =/= happiness...money just makes happiness more likely
poverty =/= depression...poverty just makes depression more likely

there is more than a "bit of data" out there on this


you stated that "most successful people are utter morons"...I assume you meant financial success and not just some mental state of well being.

[-p.tiddy-]

Oh, and looks like creative genius and mental illness are pretty strongly correlated (even though i never mentioned mental illness, p tiddy just had to bring it up so he could get a personal dig in):

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/22/world/the-dark-side-of-creativity-vincent-van-gogh/

and:
"poor mental health" =/= "mental illness"

:facepalm

[-p.tiddy-]

you have no issues shooting down my studies and brushing them off and then you go on to post an essay from 1933 to back you up


how about showing a study done in the past 10 years that shows some form of evidence that most successful people are morons...

[Dresta]

I said "tend"

intelligent people "tend" to be happier "on average"

rich people "tend" to be happier than poor people "on average"

so not that does not mean: intelligence=happiness=money (of course I am just pointing out what you already know)

I even stated earlier

intelligence =/= happiness...intelligence just makes happiness more likely
being a moron =/= depression...being a moron just makes depression more likely

and
money (success) =/= happiness...money just makes happiness more likely
poverty =/= depression...poverty just makes depression more likely

there is more than a "bit of data" out there on this


you stated that "most successful people are utter morons"...I assume you meant financial success and not just some mental state of well being.
My question is why exactly are you talking about happiness when i said nothing about it? My comment had nothing to do with either happiness or depression, it was about the 'Dunning-Kruger' effect, which you apparently thought i had pulled out of my ass. But for some strange reason you thought depression had something to do with this.

I don't understand. You do not make any sense.

[-p.tiddy-]

My question is why exactly are you talking about happiness when i said nothing about it? My comment had nothing to do with either happiness or depression, it was about the 'Dunning-Kruger' effect, which you apparently thought i had pulled out of my ass. But for some strange reason you thought depression had something to do with this.

I don't understand. You do not make any sense.
if intelligent people view themselves as failures in life, and morons are the opposite, they are full of confidence and view themselves in a good light....would that not equate to intelligent people being unhappy and morons being happy?

at min I would think it would at least trend that way...if what you are saying is true

[Trentknicks]

Neither of you are impressing anyone, stop wasting your time on such a moot point.

[Dresta]

"poor mental health" =/= "mental illness"

:facepalm
I can't fathom what your point is here either. Depression is a mental illness, like bipolar, schizophrenia and others. That collection of studies shows clearly a link between mental illness and creative genius, yet you were blabbering on about how the more intelligent you are, the higher chance your chance of happiness, which is contradicted by the collection of studies i posted (which expand over 1 million people btw, yours was of less than 7,000 :lol).


you have no issues shooting down my studies and brushing them off and then you go on to post an essay from 1933 to back you up


how about showing a study done in the past 10 years that shows some form of evidence that most successful people are morons...
:hammerhead:

Your reading comprehension is just so bad i don't know why i bother. I didn't post an essay from 1933, the article was merely pointing out that these findings had been anticipated by many philosophers (and Darwin), and quoted from the example of Russell. The Dunning-Kruger effect was demonstrated in 1999, and the science show discussing it that i posted was written in 2012:

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/scienceshow/the-dunning-kruger-effect/3102360#transcript

You can read the full transcript there.

How would i have a study to show that exactly? It wouldn't even be possible to design one due to all the inherent ambiguity of such a question. I did show through the process of deductive logic why it is likely that most of the people who regard themselves as being successful will be morons though.

[-p.tiddy-]

no depression is not usually "mental illness" like schizophrenia

so somehow we all get this "illness" once we lose our jobs/money?



this point of view seems contradictory to someone who refuses to buy into alcoholism being heriditary

[step_back]

Isn't a high level of intelligence also related to madness?

I'm talking Einstein level intelligence here.

[-p.tiddy-]

Isn't a high level of intelligence also related to madness?

I'm talking Einstein level intelligence here.
like autistic savant types?...rain man

check this out:

[URL="http://www.thefastertimes.com/tech/2011/03/30/boy-genius-12-challenges-einsteins-theory-of-relativity/"]Boy genius, 12, Challenges Einstein

[Dresta]

no depression is not usually "mental illness" like schizophrenia

so somehow we all get this "illness" once we lose our jobs/money?



this point of view seems contradictory to someone who refuses to buy into alcoholism being heriditary
No, you are confusing clinical depression with simply being unhappy. Depression is a different monster altogether, and can completely destroy a human being in a short period of time if it is not dealt with.

I said genetic traits that increase the likelihood of alcoholism may be hereditary, but that alcoholism itself is not hereditary. There is a difference. For example, if someone becomes an alcoholic because he is highly compulsive, then is it not the compulsive trait that was inherited rather than the alcoholism?

Likewise there are genetic traits that make someone more likely to succumb to depression, just as there are with schizophrenia and bipolar, all of which are classified as 'mental disorders' or illnesses.

[IamRAMBO24]

It's a combination of both nature and nurture obviously.

Are we done?

It is neither. This is a stupid blanket comparison. Nature and nurture deals with epiphenomenalism. It is materialism vs materialism. The correct answer is both because they are pretty much the same thing.

The real question you should ask is mind vs environment. It is your mindset that will create your reality. There are rich kids who are f*cked up and there are poor kids who will be a failure in life; basketball stars aren't great because they are taller and bigger than everybody else: there are plenty of people in society with the same height and strength. The difference is their mindset. They wanted it more than the regular joe. Just because you are born smart it doesn't mean you will be the next Einstein. There are a lot of smart kids who won't amount to anything in their life.

What makes you great in life will be what goes on in your mind. I'm not talking about education; I'm talking about creativity. You can come from a poor household and still something great, and if you have horrible genes, you can still reach higher than most people. Look at Helen Keller, can't see, can't hear, and dumb as f*ck, but she still accomplished more than most people in history.

[Akrazotile]

[QUOTE=-p.tiddy-]like autistic savant types?...rain man

check this out:

[URL="http://www.thefastertimes.com/tech/2011/03/30/boy-genius-12-challenges-einsteins-theory-of-relativity/"]Boy genius, 12, Challenges Einstein

[Akrazotile]

basketball stars aren't great because they are taller and bigger than everybody else: there are plenty of people in society with the same height and strength. The difference is their mindset. They wanted it more than the regular joe.

The basketball comparison is dumb, there is a reason the avg NBA player is a 6'5 black guy, however you are on to an accurate general point that "drive" is an altogether separate factor from intelligence and varies by person.

Some people have an intrisic desire for security that is higher or lower than average, whether it be physical, social, emotional etc. Some people feel compelled to prove things to their peers more often than others do. Others are more complacent bc they dont naturally give as much of AF.

Some people are born workers, thats just what theyre wired to do. And no matter how much money they make they always keep grinding. Other people are born wanderers, and no matter what situation theyre in their tendency is to look around more, and feel less pressure to put their nose to the grindstone. Thats just how theyre wired. Most people are in the middle, naturally. And IMO it has nothing to do with intelligence. Often it has to do with innate feelings of security or a need thereof.

[IamRAMBO24]

The basketball comparison is dumb, there is a reason the avg NBA player is a 6'5 black guy, however you are on to an accurate general point that "drive" is an altogether separate factor from intelligence and varies by person.

Some people have an intrisic desire for security that is higher or lower than average, whether it be physical, social, emotional etc. Some people feel compelled to prove things to their peers more often than others do. Others are more complacent bc they dont naturally give as much of AF.

Some people are born workers, thats just what theyre wired to do. And no matter how much money they make they always keep grinding. Other people are born wanderers, and no matter what situation theyre in their tendency is to look around more, and feel less pressure to put their nose to the grindstone. Thats just how theyre wired. Most people are in the middle, naturally. And IMO it has nothing to do with intelligence. Often it has to do with innate feelings of security or a need thereof.

The basketball analogy was absolutely correct. What made Jordan great was his mindset. It wasn't his height nor was it his upbringing; sure those contributed in some way, but the single most important thing that set him apart from everbody else was his competitive drive. He wanted to be the best. He made up his mind that will be his goal. He utilized his creativity to figure out a way to be the best. Once that was set in stone, he put in the work to live up to the expectation he imposed on himself. That was all mind.

Even the most physical activity (exercise) is dependent on the mind. You can't lose weight or be healthy unless you have goals and a willingness to change your body. You can duke it out in the gym if you want, but good luck keeping it up for more than a week.

[ace23]

These types get a lot of attention but I suspect theres no real correlation. There are many child prodigies who do not have autism or related handicaps, and many autistics who do not have any prodigious skills or capacities. Because theyre not mutually exclusive, inevitably there will be random overlap. These cases are fascinating and tend to create more publicity but I havent seen much indicating any kind of link.
Pretty sure by "savant types", p tiddy is referring to people who suffer from Savant syndrome.

[IamRAMBO24]

Often it has to do with innate feelings of security or a need thereof.

Innate feelings of security is nothing more than the wrong focus on the body.

Your environment and body has nothing to do with your success. Soak that thought in for a while. The most powerful tool you have is your imagination and creativity.

Creativity dictates environment; your mind is what is creating your life. Look at your house, look at your family, look at your job, even the friends you have, the enemies you make, the girls you sleep with, etc. That is all your creation. If you have a sh*tty life, I don't blame you; your educational system is doing everything in its power to make sure you don't use this powerful tool.

Einstein's genius was not because he was born that way or he was good at math or science; he was a genius because he knew how to utilize his imagination.

[IamRAMBO24]

Many of you have a scientific mindset, so I understand it is hard for you to grasp how important your mindset is; you are train all your life to believe in materialsim without fully understanding science is nothing more than a tool. It should not be an ideology and neither should religion.

Both are antithetical to your powerful mind. Religion has been hijacked and the people who attend churches on sunday have been deceived to carry the same ideology. This is the reason why there will never be a solution as to which one is better. They are both the same thing. Materialism is materialism. You can't try to disprove one or the other because you are focused on the same bullsh*t.

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

talkin outta my azz on these but hey it'll spark discussion...

[QUOTE]Musical

[-p.tiddy-]

Pretty sure by "savant types", p tiddy is referring to people who suffer from Savant syndrome.
yep

and savant syndrome I am fairly sure is related to autism...they are in the same spectrum (I think)