Has there ever been such a strong hate towards a team, player?

[FPJ]

Literally everyone outside the Heat fanbase wants them to lose. I dont even think the Detroit Bad Boys were so genuinely hated.

There are people looking for the thinnest straws just to have something bad to say about Lebron. He rustled so many jimmies its unreal :oldlol: .

One thing's certain though, the Heat brought back excitement in the NBA :rockon: .

[SpecialQue]

:lebroncry:

[no pun intended]

I've never seen fans get so defensive too.

[kamil]

LeBron* took whatever was left of the NBA's credibility and sh*t on it with his collusion in 2010.

[NumberSix]

Everybody wanted the bulls to win in the 90s. Nobody wants the Heat to win in this era. Michael Jordan's marketing was on another level.

[navy]

Who cares. The tears after the last two rings were delicious.

[All Net]

Alot of great teams were hated. The Miami hate isn't nearly as bad as it was in 2011 for example.

[DukeDelonte13]

Everybody wanted the bulls to win in the 90s. Nobody wants the Heat to win in this era. Michael Jordan's marketing was on another level.


gee i wonder why that is....

[NumberSix]

gee i wonder why that is....
Because he played in an era where his dirty laundry wasn't aired. If MJ played in this era, he'd be less liked than Jay Cutler.

[Bandito]

Nobody has a problem with lebron. Is the stans that are unbereable. Heck when Lebron choke all Lebron stans (even his biggest stan pauk)left the board that summer. It was quite and nice for awhile. And then came back around June when he won :lol

[kamil]

Because he played in an era where his dirty laundry wasn't aired. If MJ played in this era, he'd be less liked than Jay Cutler.

Are you oblivious to LeBron's* collusion?

[SilkkTheShocker]

So many butthurt fa.ggots in here. Buy some tissues :oldlol:

[Kingwillball]

It is AMAZING to me how many people hate lebron.. I understand fans of other teams are jeolous but you would think more Fans of the game would appreciate this once in a generation talent. I was around during the Jordan era but of course there was not the Internet forums and blogs like there is now but I know a lot of basketball fans I knew loved(mostly) or hated MJ but they all respected him. I guess the decision and the failure in the Finals against Dallas has helped harbour the resentment towards him by a lot of fans.

[NumberSix]

Are you oblivious to LeBron's* collusion?
Not oblivious. Just don't care. I'm fully in favor of collusion actually.

You prove OPs point though. You're the exact kind of mentally weak phaggit that goes out of his way to put an * next to LeBron's name every single time you type it. The hate is strong.

[selrahc]

Everybody wanted the bulls to win in the 90s. Nobody wants the Heat to win in this era. Michael Jordan's marketing was on another level.

Of course. If LeBron had won championships with Cleveland I would support him 100%. But instead he joined 2 other top 5 players in the league and cheated his way to 2 championships.

[NumberSix]

Of course. If LeBron had won championships with Cleveland I would support him 100%. But instead he joined 2 other top 5 players in the league and cheated his way to 2 championships.
Lions take what's theirs. Sheep wait for handouts.

[kamil]

Lions take what's theirs. Sheep wait for handouts.

And snakes collude with others.

[SpecialQue]

So many butthurt fa.ggots in here. Buy some tissues :oldlol:

Tell me about it. Lebron fans are so sensitive.

[Milbuck]

No one gives a shit. What they did deserved the hate, and they got it. But they are winning, so their fans can suck it up.

[inclinerator]

yea lol the more lebron wins the more hate he gets, for example 3 years ago there werent this many negative threads on him

[TheMan]

Lions take what's theirs. Sheep wait for handouts.
Lions don't join other lions to dominate:confusedshrug:

Anyways, I like LeBron, his pha.ggot beta fanbase OTOH can go fvck themselves...:cheers:

[Nuff Said]

These same crybabies wanted lebron to come to their team in 2010.

[Megabox!]

Nobody has a problem with lebron.
You're wrong. Yes his stans can be annoying at times but a lot of ppl legit hate this guy(like that Kamil guy) just because he went to a different team. I've even seen ppl wish death on him and wished he had a career ending injury. Its pretty pathetic

[Knoe Itawl]

Actually really only see this stuff on here. Outside of ISH, I know of plenty of causal fans who love watching Lebron play. Also, if you watch Heat games in other buildings, there are regularly contingents of Heat supporters in the crowd that ooh and aah over every great Heat play.

A large group of vocal haters on here doesn't make for the same in the real world.

[Knoe Itawl]

People that think Lebron did something wrong by going to Miami are:

A. Truly idiots
B. Hate the guy and are looking for a reason to pile on.

I've never seen a legit logical argument against it aside from "waah, he went to a stacked team. Waah". Paraphrasing, but you get the gist.

[Solefade]

Nobody has a problem with lebron. Is the stans that are unbereable. Heck when Lebron choke all Lebron stans (even his biggest stan pauk)left the board that summer. It was quite and nice for awhile. And then came back around June when he won :lol


so funny coming from a guy representing one of the worst fan bases in all of sports

[Solefade]

Of course. If LeBron had won championships with Cleveland I would support him 100%. But instead he joined 2 other top 5 players in the league and cheated his way to 2 championships.


chris bosh was top 5? wade was top 5 when they won in 2012 and 2013? :lol

[Solefade]

And snakes collude with others.


blame boston for that

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Lions don't join other lions to dominate :confusedshrug:

What does that even mean? You do know that they travel in groups right?

[KyrieTheFuture]

Is someone seriously suggesting Bosh was ever a top 5 player? That's not even good trolling.


Lions don't join other lions to dominate:confusedshrug:


Are you remotely familiar with the animal kingdom?

[Knoe Itawl]

What does that even mean? You do know that they travel in groups right?

Prides. And dominant male lions also travel together at times. If you're going to try to make a witty statement, at least know what you're talking about (the person you quoted, not you).

[Solefade]

What does that even mean? You do know that they travel in groups right?


i think he was thinking of a liger :oldlol:

[kamil]

People that think Lebron did something wrong by going to Miami are:

A. Truly idiots
B. Hate the guy and are looking for a reason to pile on.

I've never seen a legit logical argument against it aside from "waah, he went to a stacked team. Waah". Paraphrasing, but you get the gist.

We gonna act like colluding ISN'T a big deal?

[Solefade]

We gonna act like colluding ISN'T a big deal?


especially in hindsight now...cleveland is still a shit organization that's STILL the bottom of the east, lebron was never going to win shit in cleveland...and even though he did the stupid "decision" thing, he fulfilled his contract and made cleveland relevant again. absolutely nothing wrong with what bron did.

[moe94]

i think he was thinking of a liger :oldlol:

You mean tiger? Liger makes no sense in this analogy.

[zoom17]

Actually really only see this stuff on here. Outside of ISH, I know of plenty of causal fans who love watching Lebron play. Also, if you watch Heat games in other buildings, there are regularly contingents of Heat supporters in the crowd that ooh and aah over every great Heat play.

A large group of vocal haters on here doesn't make for the same in the real world.

This is so true I don't mind them though.

[JT123]

It truly is amazing how so many people get so butt hurt over ANYTHING Lebron says. :oldlol:
If you hate him so much and have no respect for him, why the hell do you care so much about his opinions? :hammerhead:

[TheMan]

Prides. And dominant male lions also travel together at times. If you're going to try to make a witty statement, at least know what you're talking about (the person you quoted, not you).
So dominant male lions who have their own prides join up with other male lions? I honestly did not know that...

[Knoe Itawl]

So dominant male lions who have their own prides join up with other male lions? I honestly did not know that...

Yes, I saw a documentary about two lion brothers that were co-kings of their pride.

[zoom17]

talking lions in this thread:oldlol:

[Knoe Itawl]

We gonna act like colluding ISN'T a big deal?

Bird - drafted into a team with HOFers. Who knows what he would've done if he put 7 years of blood sweat and tears into a team that was obviously not going to get the pieces he needed to win.

Magic - see Bird. Also said he only wanted to play on Lakers prior to draft

Jordan - was getting frustrated but got Pip and Horace and the rest was history. Who knows if he would've demanded a trade

Bryant - forced his way onto Lakers. Lucky to be with one of the top 2 bball organizations of all time so consistently surrounded by talent. Also, where was the outrage about Dwight and Nash signing there?

Lebron - gave 7 years to Cleveland, made them relevant and the best they got him was *#$#$ Mo Williams. And there was no sign things were going to get any better.

There have been plenty of "stacked" teams in NBA history. So Lebron decided to make his own luck after 7 years. SO WHAT.

Piling on after he went to Miami was just an excuse for haters or people with low IQs to disparage him.

[moe94]

Yes, I saw a documentary about two lion brothers that were co-kings of their pride.

They were brothers, though and probably left their original pride together in adolescence. Will a mature or aging lion join another random lion after being ousted from his own pride? Does that happen?

[Knoe Itawl]

They were brothers, though and probably left their original pride together in adolescence. Will a mature or aging lion join another random lion after being ousted from his own pride? Does that happen?

Well, most dominant lions don't hang with any other male lions, brothers or not, but it does happen, which is what I was speaking to.

But see my post above regarding the Lebron/Miami thing.

[RedBlackAttack]

especially in hindsight now...cleveland is still a shit organization that's STILL the bottom of the east, lebron was never going to win shit in cleveland...and even though he did the stupid "decision" thing, he fulfilled his contract and made cleveland relevant again. absolutely nothing wrong with what bron did.
First, Cavs aren't at "the bottom" of the East. They're alongside Detroit in the 9/10 spot... 3 games out of a playoff seat.

Secondly, how long did you think it would take the organization to become contenders again after losing the best player in the NBA for a trade exception? I'm sure other franchises can easily absorb those kinds of minor blips on the radar, but being forced into an explode/rebuild the roster can take more than just a couple seasons.

[Solefade]

First, Cavs aren't at "the bottom" of the East. They're alongside Detroit in the 9/10 spot... 3 games out of a playoff seat.

Secondly, how long did you think it would take the organization to become contenders again after losing the best player in the NBA for a trade exception? I'm sure other franchises can easily absorb those kinds of minor blips on the radar, but being forced into an explode/rebuild the roster can take more than just a couple seasons.



okay if you wanna be super technical about it...but to me if you're not in the playoffs in the east = bottom feeder lol

and to respond to the 2nd part..BOBCATS are more relevant than the Cavs now

[Trentknicks]

First, Cavs aren't at "the bottom" of the East. They're alongside Detroit in the 9/10 spot... 3 games out of a playoff seat.

Secondly, how long did you think it would take the organization to become contenders again after losing the best player in the NBA for a trade exception? I'm sure other franchises can easily absorb those kinds of minor blips on the radar, right?
With the amount of picks (and the quality) you should definitely be in the playoffs considering the quality of the East at the present moment.

Side note: is it true you have a popcorn fetish? Jameer's been PMing me saying you admitted to needing to eat it off girls faces before intercourse.

[Rodmantheman]

http://cs412631.vk.me/v412631316/5294/YZ8feHRtbos.jpg

[RedBlackAttack]

okay if you wanna be super technical about it...but to me if you're not in the playoffs in the east = bottom feeder lol
Yeah... "super technical." :oldlol:

You said "the bottom of the East." That's completely inaccurate, technical or otherwise.

[zoom17]

http://cs412631.vk.me/v412631316/5294/YZ8feHRtbos.jpg

Sick pick:rockon:

[RedBlackAttack]

With the amount of picks (and the quality) you should definitely be in the playoffs considering the quality of the East at the present moment.

Side note: is it true you have a popcorn fetish? Jameer's been PMing me saying you admitted to needing to eat it off girls faces before intercourse.
Sure, look at the quality of the picks, but also look at the quality of the drafts. Not exactly the best three-year period to be in rebuild/tank mode.

Second part of your post was just weird, not funny.

[livinglegend]

Just shows how great lebron is ! He overcame the most hate in the history of basketball and won back2back championships. Hating intensity was at it highest before game 6 vs Celtics and that s when he performed the best. :bowdown: :bowdown:

[eSOL]

chris bosh was top 5? wade was top 5 when they won in 2012 and 2013? :lol


Lol dont even bother. These LBJ hatting Fakkits will ignore your post this whole thread

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

No player has quit and subsequently left their franchise on a live television event. Lebron deserved ALL of the vitriol and flack.

[smoovegittar]

How could anyone who loves the NBA hate LeBron or the Heat? If you're gonna be upset, then be upset at your own team for not doing what it takes to compete at that level. I root for a team that can't beat ANYBODY this year - they suck to the high heavens. Am I going to hate another team's success or the skill of great players? Hell no. Only thing I can't stand is a group of anuses going at one another bringing it down to new lows. :facepalm

[eSOL]

No player has quit and subsequently left their franchise on a live television event. Lebron deserved ALL of the vitriol and flack.


U must be from cleaveland.

Anyone else who are fans of another team are just hopping on the hate bandwagon.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

U must be from cleaveland.

Anyone else who are fans of another team are just hopping on the hate bandwagon.

Nah. I'm just not a fan of cowards.

I appreciate Lebron's greatness. Best player in the game. I just cant and will NEVER root for the guy.

[sd3035]

The Spurs......boring teams that win will always have a lot of detractors, especially if their leader is a boring player eg. Duncan or Lebron

[sd3035]

Also flopping teams get a lot of hate, the Spurs and Heat are the two worst offenders in that regard as well

[aj1987]

Sure, look at the quality of the picks, but also look at the quality of the drafts. Not exactly the best three-year period to be in rebuild/tank mode.
Sure, but the Cav's did make a bad picks the last two years. Nobody imagined them to pick AB. Dan Gilbert is a terrible owner and an idiot.

[Rake2204]

How could anyone who loves the NBA hate LeBron or the Heat? If you're gonna be upset, then be upset at your own team for not doing what it takes to compete at that level. I root for a team that can't beat ANYBODY this year - they suck to the high heavens. Am I going to hate another team's success or the skill of great players? Hell no. Only thing I can't stand is a group of anuses going at one another bringing it down to new lows. :facepalmI do not hate LeBron James or the Miami Heat, but the situation he rightfully helped create is not one of which I derive enjoyment. As I've mentioned time and again, I'm a Detroit Pistons fan who also enjoyed LeBron James' exploits in rival Cleveland. For me personally, I liked watching one of the top two talents of my adult life (born '84) powerhousing through the league with whatever situation he was dealt. It was a great story for me and I felt at least one championship in Cleveland was inevitable for James, and likely more. And to be truthful, James could have gone ring-less and it still would have been clear to me that his talent and ability were once-in-a-lifetime/generation/ever types of things.

Unfortunately, I found the manner with which James jumped ship, collected stars, and seemingly attempted to fast forward to the easiest ring possible at odds with my ideas of competition and what I'd come to expect from James himself. For me the thought was, does winning mean the same if one willfully and successfully stacks the odds in one's favor? And maybe too I felt a bit like, "Being on a team (Cleveland) that reached the finals and most recently won 60+ games in back-to-back seasons yielded an attempted super team response because a championship did not yet occur? Competing each year wasn't enough?"

It felt like overkill, and I wasn't sure that was the true spirit behind the phrase, "Win at all costs". It all felt a little too close to, "Win at all costs... even if it means taking your rival team's best players and mashing them together with yourself on a separate entity, then turning around and using that new super power to dominate the league for years to come, in part because the stars you used to compete against are now on your team." And that's less fun for me as a fan, though again, it was surely all within each of those player's rights to make the moves they did.

TL;DR: For me, LeBron James went from monster and basketball savant destroying the league in a sort of underdog status, to one of the most overdog situations I've ever seen in my short life. Overdogs are tough for me to pull for to begin with, more so when considering the surrounding circumstances of the LeBron/Special Talent/Heat/TV Special/Cleveland thing.

[hawksdogsbraves]

This board, as usual, is in no way indicative of the public. People love LeBron, he's the most popular basketball player in the world. Every arena he travels to is packed, and in most places there's a huge contingent of fans cheering for him. Those guys aren't Miami transplants, they're the bandwagoners that the best player in the world is going to attract.

[Knoe Itawl]

I do not hate LeBron James or the Miami Heat, but the situation he rightfully helped create is not one of which I derive enjoyment. As I've mentioned time and again, I'm a Detroit Pistons fan who also enjoyed LeBron James' exploits in rival Cleveland. For me personally, I liked watching one of the top two talents of my adult life (born '84) powerhousing through the league with whatever situation he was dealt. It was a great story for me and I felt at least one championship in Cleveland was inevitable for James, and likely more. And to be truthful, James could have gone ring-less and it still would have been clear to me that his talent and ability were once-in-a-lifetime/generation/ever types of things.

Unfortunately, I found the manner with which James jumped ship, collected stars, and seemingly attempted to fast forward to the easiest ring possible at odds with my ideas of competition and what I'd come to expect from James himself. For me the thought was, does winning mean the same if one willfully and successfully stacks the odds in one's favor? And maybe too I felt a bit like, "Being on a team (Cleveland) that reached the finals and most recently won 60+ games in back-to-back seasons yielded an attempted super team response because a championship did not yet occur? Competing each year wasn't enough?"

It felt like overkill, and I wasn't sure that was the true spirit behind the phrase, "Win at all costs". It all felt a little too close to, "Win at all costs... even if it means taking your rival team's best players and mashing them together with yourself on a separate entity, then turning around and using that new super power to dominate the league for years to come, in part because the stars you used to compete against are now on your team." And that's less fun for me as a fan, though again, it was surely all within each of those player's rights to make the moves they did.

TL;DR: For me, LeBron James went from monster and basketball savant destroying the league in a sort of underdog status, to one of the most overdog situations I've ever seen in my short life. Overdogs are tough for me to pull for to begin with, more so when considering the surrounding circumstances of the LeBron/Special Talent/Heat/TV Special/Cleveland thing.

You had a reasonable post, so I'll amend my earlier statement to say that critics of Lebron's move are either:

A. People with low IQs/no critical thinking skills following the crowd
B. People that dislike him looking for ammo
C. Decent enough basketball fans who are just wrong and have latched on to a criticism that doesn't hold weight under logical scrutiny.

If you're complaining that he joined other prime stars and formed a "stacked" team, then you should have derived no enjoyment from Magic's Lakers, Bird's Celtics, etc. The only difference is that those teams had management put them together, while Lebron (after spending 7 years in Cleveland and not getting talent that would get him closer to a ring) decided "screw this" and decided to make his own fortune. If owners can put together stacked teams, I don't have a problem with players doing the same.

And aside from that, the Heat weren't even as stacked as they were hyped up to be. Bosh has been inconsistent/injured at key points in the playoffs, as has Wade. They have been vulnerable because of their lack of size as well. This idea that they were the Globetrotters and the rest of the league was the Washington Generals was just silly from the get go. Again, a product of a hype without critical thinking.

[toooo]

Numbersix has got to be one of the worst posters on this board.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You had a reasonable post, so I'll amend my earlier statement to say that critics of Lebron's move are either:

A. People with low IQs/no critical thinking skills following the crowd
B. People that dislike him looking for ammo
C. Decent enough basketball fans who are just wrong and have latched on to a criticism that doesn't hold weight under logical scrutiny.

If you're complaining that he joined other prime stars and formed a "stacked" team, then you should have derived no enjoyment from Magic's Lakers, Bird's Celtics, etc. The only difference is that those teams had management put them together, while Lebron (after spending 7 years in Cleveland and not getting talent that would get him closer to a ring) decided "screw this" and decided to make his own fortune. If owners can put together stacked teams, I don't have a problem with players doing the same.

And aside from that, the Heat weren't even as stacked as they were hyped up to be. Bosh has been inconsistent/injured at key points in the playoffs, as has Wade. They have been vulnerable because of their lack of size as well. This idea that they were the Globetrotters and the rest of the league was the Washington Generals was just silly from the get go. Again, a product of a hype without critical thinking.

Actually, the difference is those teams were made organically through the draft and trade. Magic and Bird were NOT yet established like Wade, who was arguably a top 2-3 player in 2010.

I'm consistent though. Save for a few mishaps in the finals, throughout the playoffs, Lebron pretty much carried his team offensively.

In the end, it's about results. And Bron is STILL putting in the work. He is STILL the BEST player in the game.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Jordan and his Bulls GREW together as a team. They weren't "stacked" from the get go. People forget, Jordan was a one-man wrecking crew and that Pippen was green prior to all the hoopla and dynasties.

[DonDadda59]

Jordan and his Bulls GREW together as a team. They weren't "stacked" from the get go. People forget, Jordan was a one-man wrecking crew and that Pippen was green prior to all the hoopla and dynasties.

Yeah, comparing what Lebron did to Magic, Bird getting drafted or Pip/Grant taking several years to develop into all star/starter caliber talent is just plain silly. Wade was in the argument for best player in the league, had already led the Heat to a championship, and Bosh was a 20/10 franchise player who had led a lowly Raptors team to multiple playoff berths.

Can you imagine how fast Bron would've 'decided' to bail on Chicago to join up with Clyde and Barkley if he had to go through Detroit 4 times and their 'Lebron rules' while Pip was either still developing from a bench scrub or being a migraine-headcase who potentially cost him the first of 7 rings? Jordan had to go through hell to reach legend status. But he stayed the course because his competitive fire wouldn't allow him to concede defeat or admit he couldn't overcome an opponent. It only took Bron 2 tries at Boston before he abandoned his team and ran to Wade County.

So forgive people who think (rightfully so) that this dude took the coward's way out, the easy route to some rings.

[Rose'sACL]

Yeah, comparing what Lebron did to Magic, Bird getting drafted or Pip/Grant taking several years to develop into all star/starter caliber talent is just plain silly. Wade was in the argument for best player in the league, had already led the Heat to a championship, and Bosh was a 20/10 franchise player who had led a lowly Raptors team to multiple playoff berths.

Can you imagine how fast Bron would've 'decided' to bail on Chicago to join up with Clyde and Barkley if he had to go through Detroit 4 times and their 'Lebron rules' while Pip was either still developing from a bench scrub or being a migraine-headcase who potentially cost him the first of 7 rings? Jordan had to go through hell to reach legend status. But he stayed the course because his competitive fire wouldn't allow him to concede defeat or admit he couldn't overcome an opponent. It only took Bron 2 tries at Boston before he abandoned his team and ran to Wade County.

So forgive people who think (rightfully so) that this dude took the coward's way out, the easy route to some rings.
Wouldn't lebron have a different mind set if he grew up in a different era? People always talk about players of previous eras benifitting from today's training and other stuff if they played today but forget that players of today would change their games to fit past eras if they were born then.
We all know that players are more comfortable in their own skins now than they have ever been. Players fck with other team's minds a lot now by flopping. i guess people who are not confident about themselves see it as a bitch move but opposition always gets mad when other team gets a favorable call because of flopping.
Until league increases fine from 5-10k to 50k, it would be foolish of players not to flop every game or 2 and get a big call in their favor. isn't it pretty alpha knowing that you image might take a hit for flopping and still doing it so the team can win?
Different Eras have different ways of getting under the skin of the other team. Manu and Chris paul are 2 of the hardest workers and competitors in the game and they both flop. Other team gets mad a lot of time because of it.

[DonDadda59]

Wouldn't lebron have a different mind set if he grew up in a different era? People always talk about players of previous eras benifitting from today's training and other stuff if they played today but forget that players of today would change their games to fit past eras if they were born then.
We all know that players are more comfortable in their own skins now than they have ever been. Players fck with other team's minds a lot now by flopping. i guess people who are not confident about themselves see it as a bitch move but opposition always gets mad when other team gets a favorable call because of flopping.
Until league increases fine from 5-10k to 50k, it would be foolish of players not to flop every game or 2 and get a big call in their favor. isn't it pretty alpha knowing that you image might take a hit for flopping and still doing it so the team can win?
Different Eras have different ways of getting under the skin of the other team. Manu and Chris paul are 2 of the hardest workers and competitors in the game and they both flop. Other team gets mad a lot of time because of it.

If you want to peg the best player in the league taking the coward's way out as a sign o' the times, go ahead. You're probably right. Doesn't change the facts though.

Just don't get overly defensive and make believe people don't have justified dislike for a player doing something like that at age 26, before he even entered his prime:rolleyes:

[Knoe Itawl]

Yeah, comparing what Lebron did to Magic, Bird getting drafted or Pip/Grant taking several years to develop into all star/starter caliber talent is just plain silly. Wade was in the argument for best player in the league, had already led the Heat to a championship, and Bosh was a 20/10 franchise player who had led a lowly Raptors team to multiple playoff berths.

Can you imagine how fast Bron would've 'decided' to bail on Chicago to join up with Clyde and Barkley if he had to go through Detroit 4 times and their 'Lebron rules' while Pip was either still developing from a bench scrub or being a migraine-headcase who potentially cost him the first of 7 rings? Jordan had to go through hell to reach legend status. But he stayed the course because his competitive fire wouldn't allow him to concede defeat or admit he couldn't overcome an opponent. It only took Bron 2 tries at Boston before he abandoned his team and ran to Wade County.

So forgive people who think (rightfully so) that this dude took the coward's way out, the easy route to some rings.

I see eye to eye with you on most things Dada, but you're wrong on this one. There is just no telling what Jordan would've done if he continued to get beaten by Detroit (or other team) year by year and management did not get him sufficient talent to battle them.

You can say he stayed the course because of competitive fire and blah blah blah but the bottom line is that he got the help he needed around the same time in his career that Lebron said enough was enough in Cleveland. To label him a coward and what not is grossly unfair, and shows a blatant (wilful?) ignoring of the facts.

I always ask people to name me a championship squad that had a Mo Williams quality player as the second best player, and people struggle.

Your narrative is just off. More like it took him 7 years (with no signs of improvement coming) for him to decide he needed to go to greener pastures. Again, he didn't get the luck/managerial infrastructure of Jordan, Bird, Magic, Bryant, Shaq so he made his own fortune.

The only thing I would criticize him for was the whole "Decision" fiasco but even there the money went to charity and Jesus even if it was wrong as a whole, it's certainly not worth harping on beyond the initial period after it hapened.

[Rose'sACL]

If you want to peg the best player in the league taking the coward's way out as a sign o' the times, go ahead. You're probably right. Doesn't change the facts though.

Just don't get overly defensive and make believe people don't have justified dislike for a player doing something like that at age 26, before he even entered his prime:rolleyes:
not to this level. it almost makes the sports fans look like kids who are living their lives through those athletes. most so called true sports fans hated lebron more for leaving cleveland than they hated jordan for being a degenerate gambler and kobe for allegedly raping a woman.
i don't hate any player. i still like kobe even though he has had some great series against spurs and i still think jordan is the GOAT. i didn't like "the decision" but i almost laughed everytime i talked to some nba fans after it and they almost hated lebron as if he just murdered their families.
what i am trying to say is that there are athletes who have done actually bad things off the courts who are hated way lesser than lebron was in 2011.

[NumberSix]

They were brothers, though and probably left their original pride together in adolescence. Will a mature or aging lion join another random lion after being ousted from his own pride? Does that happen?
Yes.

[NumberSix]

Numbersix has got to be one of the worst posters on this board.
Or, one of the best.


http://www.sharegif.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/oh-yeah-gif-buffy-the-vampire.gif

[Rake2204]

You had a reasonable post, so I'll amend my earlier statement to say that critics of Lebron's move are either:

A. People with low IQs/no critical thinking skills following the crowd
B. People that dislike him looking for ammo
C. Decent enough basketball fans who are just wrong and have latched on to a criticism that doesn't hold weight under logical scrutiny.

If you're complaining that he joined other prime stars and formed a "stacked" team, then you should have derived no enjoyment from Magic's Lakers, Bird's Celtics, etc. The only difference is that those teams had management put them together, while Lebron (after spending 7 years in Cleveland and not getting talent that would get him closer to a ring) decided "screw this" and decided to make his own fortune. If owners can put together stacked teams, I don't have a problem with players doing the same.

And aside from that, the Heat weren't even as stacked as they were hyped up to be. Bosh has been inconsistent/injured at key points in the playoffs, as has Wade. They have been vulnerable because of their lack of size as well. This idea that they were the Globetrotters and the rest of the league was the Washington Generals was just silly from the get go. Again, a product of a hype without critical thinking.Perhaps you misinterpreted my previous post. I don't believe what LeBron James did was wrong. It was clearly his rightful and legal choice. My contribution was merely to convey that I did not favor his decision.

For one reason or another, James looking to create a super team by combining stars from various squads onto one single roster just felt inconsistent with the idea of competition I wish to see. It seemed way too easy. Two mega stars (one on pace to being a top 5 player of all-time) and a 26 year old 5 time All-Star decide to meet up and play together and suddenly one half of the NBA Finals matchup is set for the foreseeable future.

I'm truthful when I say I was a definite fan of Lebron James while he was in Cleveland and as a Detroit fan, I really do not have a Cleveland axe to grind here. The Miami situation just felt different than any other team constructions I've seen throughout time. It doesn't mean they're wrong for what they did, but I suppose it just means I prefer teams being built naturally from the ground up, or through shrewd management decisions, as opposed to three stars arbitrarily saying, "Alright, we're tired of competing and not quite making it, lets put an end to this whole 'chance of losing' thing." Most front office team constructions seem to be at least somewhat difficult - with some lucky breaks here, some savvy pickups there, years long team building over there, all of which would be in sharp contrast to what occurred in Miami.

As I've said before, it felt like that moment at the park when three D1 players show up and insist on playing on the same team, then proceeding to stomp out the normal ballplayers while feeling really proud about it.

Also, to the contrary, regarding whether the Heat were as stacked as they were hyped to be, I believe the fact that the they are back-to-back NBA champions while their superstars were not full strength (nearly winning a third in 2011 while not playing anywhere near their full potential) could be interpreted as being a testimony of how solid and stacked this team really may be.

And in the end, perhaps that's part of it too. I knew LeBron James was knocking on the door of an NBA title in Cleveland with rosters at which many would normally scoff. But I felt his skills were such that he could raise the level of play of those around him nearly as high as anyone in history. I didn't think it'd take much more for James to be a part of a championship winning team. Grouping together a handful of dream teamers felt like overkill.

[Solefade]

Yeah... "super technical." :oldlol:

You said "the bottom of the East." That's completely inaccurate, technical or otherwise.


completely inaccurate? if you don't make the playoffs after consecutive seasons with top 3 draft picks then you're a bottom feeder. everyone points out how shitty the east especially as of recent so why downplay this?

[Knoe Itawl]

Perhaps you misinterpreted my previous post. I don't believe what LeBron James did was wrong. It was clearly his rightful and legal choice. My contribution was merely to convey that I did not favor his decision.

For one reason or another, James looking to create a super team by combining stars from various squads onto one single roster just felt inconsistent with the idea of competition I wish to see. It seemed way too easy. Two mega stars (one on pace to being a top 5 player of all-time) and a 26 year old 5 time All-Star decide to meet up and play together and suddenly one half of the NBA Finals matchup is set for the foreseeable future.

I'm truthful when I say I was a definite fan of Lebron James while he was in Cleveland and as a Detroit fan, I really do not have a Cleveland axe to grind here. The Miami situation just felt different than any other team constructions I've seen throughout time, for me. It doesn't mean they're wrong for what they did, but I suppose it just means I prefer teams being built naturally from the ground up, or through shrewd management decisions, as opposed to three stars arbitrarily saying, "Alright, we're tired of competing and not quite making it, lets put an end to this whole 'chance of losing' thing."

As I've said before, it felt like the moment at the park where the three D1 players insist on playing on the same team, then proceeding to stomp out the normal ballplayers while feeling really proud about it.

And to the contrary, regarding whether they were as stacked as they were hyped to be, I believe the fact that the Miami Heat are back-to-back NBA champions while their superstars were not full strength (nearly winning a third in 2011 while not playing anywhere near their full potential) could be interpreted as being a testimony of how solid and stacked this team really may be.

And in the end, perhaps that's part of it too. I knew LeBron James was knocking on the door of an NBA title in Cleveland with rosters at which many would normally scoff. But I felt his skills were such that he could raise the level of play of those around him nearly as high as anyone in history. I didn't think it'd take much more for James to be a part of a championship winning team. Grouping together a handful of dream teamers felt like overkill.

It's reasonable to say that you personally weren't a fan of the move. I can get with that. It's all of the "his rings are tarnished, he's a coward, he colluded, would JordanBirdMagic have done that, etc." that I take issue with.

And again, he's still had to earn those titles with the Heat. Bosh missed several playoff series with that stomach injury, we know Wade's periods of ups and downs. We also know that the Heat are undersized and after the Big 3 have capable players but hardly powerhouses. There has been no cakewalk for the Heat, and there will not be this year either. None of those Cleveland teams were going to win titles. I called that every year, regardless of what the ESPN hype machine said. Jordan didn't win til Pip and Horace matured, along with PJax coming aboard. If Bron wanted to win titles, he had to make that move.

If he had stayed he would've not won year after year, and people would've criticized him for that. It's really no win. Or, I guess he could've gone to Chicago (where he'd be playing with an MVP, lol or NY, which is a disaster of a franchise.) Not many other choices at that time.

He's still had to play as hard as any player has to win these titles, and will have to continue doing so. Nothing has been, or will be handed to the Heat.

[ripthekik]

It's just simple, I've said it time and time again.

The collusion ruined his legacy. It doesn't matter how many rings he win. Nobody, real adult fans or NBA legends will respect him because he took the easy way out that none of them would have taken. He can keep winning rings but no one will think he did anything respectable like MJ/Kobe/Shaq/Duncan did in the last 20 years.

Only reason he is on top now is because he stacked his team by joining a top 3 player and top 5 PF. Without it? Dude would simply be another karl malone. Though that's not a bad thing.

[RedBlackAttack]

completely inaccurate? if you don't make the playoffs after consecutive seasons with top 3 draft picks then you're a bottom feeder. everyone points out how shitty the east especially as of recent so why downplay this?
Downplay what? You said they're at the bottom of the East. They're not. You were wrong. Accept it. Move on.

[DonDadda59]

I see eye to eye with you on most things Dada, but you're wrong on this one. There is just no telling what Jordan would've done if he continued to get beaten by Detroit (or other team) year by year and management did not get him sufficient talent to battle them.

He lost to Detroit 3 times in a row in the playoffs before finally overcoming them (after being eliminated 2 times in a row by Bird's Celtics). And this was with him going through the punishing Jordan rules. His teams were so undermanned that Detroit focused all their energy on him and dared his teammates to step up. They were both physically and mentally way too weak to provide MJ any sort of real support.

1st series: Pippen and Grant were both bench players averaging 15-16 PPG COMBINED. Jordan led the team to 52 wins. Won MVP, DPOY, scoring title, steals title, etc. He had to put up 45/5/5 (56% FG) just to get them past Cleveland in 5 in the first round (Pip did have a mini coming out party in game 5). Then the Jordan Rules kicked in, Bulls bounced in 5.

2nd series: Bulls take a step backwards in the reg. season (47 wins) as Pip and Grant become starters. They have nice contributions but are still 2-3 years from championship help. Bulls get through CLE and the Knicks. They run into the Jordan Rules again, different year same result. Pip and Grant grossly underachieve, Bulls get bounced in 6.

*This is about where Bron would've jumped ship*

3rd Series: Pip and Grant continue steady improvement, but are still not star level. BJ Armstrong is drafted with the 18th pick, Bulls have a nice regular season (55 wins). They take out Bucks, Sixers, and run into the Jordan Rules again. Having experience and their players developing some more, the Bulls actually put up a fight and force a 7th game in the ECF. In that game Jordan put up 31/8/9 (48% FG). Grant had 10/14 (3-17 shooting), but the second best player on the team, Pip had a legendary choke of a game. Complaining about suffering from a migraine at the start of the game, he 2 pts on 1-10 shooting. Bulls lost, Detroit went on to beat Portland in 5.

Jordan's teammates, his second and third options saved their absolute worst performances for when their best was most needed. In all likelihood, had they showed up to the game and Chicago had prevailed... they would've beaten Portland in 6 maybe 7.

After that, Jordan had every right to do what Bron did... but he stayed the course. Rallied the troops, pushed them in practice to get better, get tougher. And the rest is History.

So we don't have to play the 'what if' or deal in hypotheticals. MJ suffered through much worse than Bron did in Cleveland, but he didn't take the coward's way out. Too much pride and competitive fire for that.


You can say he stayed the course because of competitive fire and blah blah blah but the bottom line is that he got the help he needed around the same time in his career that Lebron said enough was enough in Cleveland. To label him a coward and what not is grossly unfair, and shows a blatant (wilful?) ignoring of the facts.

See above. And Bron never faced the sort of physical and psychological punishment Detroit unleashed on Jordan. MJ didn't magically receive help out of thin air. He was battling the Bad Boys when Pip and Grant were riding the bench and was still there 3 seasons later when they finally developed into 2nd and 3rd championship options.


I always ask people to name me a championship squad that had a Mo Williams quality player as the second best player, and people struggle.

The Cavs during Bron's last 2 seasons there were about as talented as the '94 Rockets, and you can make the case the '09-'10 were better/deeper than Hakeem's squad. Rick Barry's '75 squad was worse. 2003 Spurs had big names that were either finished (Robinson) or still developing Pippen/Grant style (Manu/Parker). Bron's squad obviously didn't have Wade/Bosh/Allen caliber talent but they were well rounded teams that were great defensively. They were good enough to post 60+ wins more than once.


Your narrative is just off. More like it took him 7 years (with no signs of improvement coming) for him to decide he needed to go to greener pastures. Again, he didn't get the luck/managerial infrastructure of Jordan, Bird, Magic, Bryant, Shaq so he made his own fortune.

You act like this dude was playing with a random YMCA squad. Jamison and Mo gave him a lot more than Pippen and Grant gave MJ their first few years. It's not like he was on a lottery team that had no shot at the playoffs. They were a contender. Just happened to run into a better squad as had many teams with championship aspirations in the past. Instead of being a leader- pushing guys to get better and mentally tougher as a team (obviously something he was unable to instill since he himself does not possess these qualities) or helping to further develop a talented young possible contributor like JJ Hickson... he instead bailed on a 60+ win team that was a contender to go for the sure thing... at age 26.

So forgive me for not weeping while you play your violin.


The only thing I would criticize him for was the whole "Decision" fiasco but even there the money went to charity and Jesus even if it was wrong as a whole, it's certainly not worth harping on beyond the initial period after it hapened.

You really can't say what the period of anger/distaste for something like that is. Personally I was never a Cavs fan so I can only imagine what they felt watching that happen. I imagine it's not the sort of thing one just brushes aside and forgets right after it happens. But as a fan of the NBA and having watched legends of the past, I can't support that sort of cowardice.

[RedBlackAttack]

You're on-point, Don.

[JT123]

He lost to Detroit 3 times in a row in the playoffs before finally overcoming them (after being eliminated 2 times in a row by Bird's Celtics). And this was with him going through the punishing Jordan rules. His teams were so undermanned that Detroit focused all their energy on him and dared his teammates to step up. They were both physically and mentally way too weak to provide MJ any sort of real support.

1st series: Pippen and Grant were both bench players averaging 15-16 PPG COMBINED. Jordan led the team to 52 wins. Won MVP, DPOY, scoring title, steals title, etc. He had to put up 45/5/5 (56% FG) just to get them past Cleveland in 5 in the first round (Pip did have a mini coming out party in game 5). Then the Jordan Rules kicked in, Bulls bounced in 5.

2nd series: Bulls take a step backwards in the reg. season (47 wins) as Pip and Grant become starters. They have nice contributions but are still 2-3 years from championship help. Bulls get through CLE and the Knicks. They run into the Jordan Rules again, different year same result. Pip and Grant grossly underachieve, Bulls get bounced in 6.

*This is about where Bron would've jumped ship*

3rd Series: Pip and Grant continue steady improvement, but are still not star level. BJ Armstrong is drafted with the 18th pick, Bulls have a nice regular season (55 wins). They take out Bucks, Sixers, and run into the Jordan Rules again. Having experience and their players developing some more, the Bulls actually put up a fight and force a 7th game in the ECF. In that game Jordan put up 31/8/9 (48% FG). Grant had 10/14 (3-17 shooting), but the second best player on the team, Pip had a legendary choke of a game. Complaining about suffering from a migraine at the start of the game, he 2 pts on 1-10 shooting. Bulls lost, Detroit went on to beat Portland in 5.

Jordan's teammates, his second and third options saved their absolute worst performances for when their best was most needed. In all likelihood, had they showed up to the game and Chicago had prevailed... they would've beaten Portland in 6 maybe 7.

After that, Jordan had every right to do what Bron did... but he stayed the course. Rallied the troops, pushed them in practice to get better, get tougher. And the rest is History.

So we don't have to play the 'what if' or deal in hypotheticals. MJ suffered through much worse than Bron did in Cleveland, but he didn't take the coward's way out. Too much pride and competitive fire for that.



See above. And Bron never faced the sort of physical and psychological punishment Detroit unleashed on Jordan. MJ didn't magically receive help out of thin air. He was battling the Bad Boys when Pip and Grant were riding the bench and was still there 3 seasons later when they finally developed into 2nd and 3rd championship options.



The Cavs during Bron's last 2 seasons there were about as talented as the '94 Rockets, and you can make the case the '09-'10 were better/deeper than Hakeem's squad. Rick Barry's '75 squad was worse. 2003 Spurs had big names that were either finished (Robinson) or still developing Pippen/Grant style (Manu/Parker). Bron's squad obviously didn't have Wade/Bosh/Allen caliber talent but they were well rounded teams that were great defensively. They were good enough to post 60+ wins more than once.



You act like this dude was playing with a random YMCA squad. Jamison and Mo gave him a lot more than Pippen and Grant gave MJ their first few years. It's not like he was on a lottery team that had no shot at the playoffs. They were a contender. Just happened to run into a better squad as had many teams with championship aspirations in the past. Instead of being a leader- pushing guys to get better and mentally tougher as a team (obviously something he was unable to instill since he himself does not possess these qualities) or helping to further develop a talented young possible contributor like JJ Hickson... he instead bailed on a 60+ win team that was a contender to go for the sure thing... at age 26.

So forgive me for not weeping while you play your violin.



You really can't say what the period of anger/distaste for something like that is. Personally I was never a Cavs fan so I can only imagine what they felt watching that happen. I imagine it's not the sort of thing one just brushes aside and forgets right after it happens. But as a fan of the NBA and having watched legends of the past, I can't support that sort of cowardice.
Nice novel, but doesn't change the fact that MJ was handed hall of famers while Lebron was handed a bunch of guys who are no longer in the league. And any idiot knows there is no such thing as a "sure thing." See 2004 and 2013 Lakers for proof.

[NumberSix]

Jordan got suspended for steroid use.


/thread

[DonDadda59]

And any idiot knows there is no such thing as a "sure thing."

Lebron disagrees. 'Not 5, not 6'. And if it weren't for the monster Jason Terry making life hell for him and outplaying him in 2011, he would've been right.

Let's all at least agree to not make believe this dude abandoned a 60+ win contender to look for a challenge :lol

He wanted to make winning as easy as humanly possible. And he succeeded.


You're on-point, Don.

It's just sad that there are people who can't see why not everyone is down with what Bron did. Oh well, just the times we live in I guess.

*Goes to gym to practice flopping technique*

[MichaelCorleone]

Jordan got suspended for steroid use.


/thread
:eek: Source?

[JT123]

Lebron disagrees. 'Not 5, not 6'. And if it weren't for the monster Jason Terry making life hell for him and outplaying him in 2011, he would've been right.

Let's all at least agree to not make believe this dude abandoned a 60+ win contender to look for a challenge :lol

He wanted to make winning as easy as humanly possible. And he succeeded.



It's just sad that there are people who can't see why not everyone is down with what Bron did. Oh well, just the times we live in I guess.

*Goes to gym to practice flopping technique*
Don't pretend that you or ANY fan took that hyberbole seriously. It was a rally for Heat fans and he wanted to hype up the crowd. :facepalm
And I wasn't aware that players are supposed to wanna win the hardest way possible. I guess Jordan is a coward for not telling the Bulls to get rid of Rodman and Pippen so he could have a bigger challenge. :rolleyes:

[HoopsFanNumero1]

He wanted to make winning as easy as humanly possible. And he succeeded.


How was it easy when they got pushed to the brinks several times already? '12 Celtics, '12 Pacers, '13 Pacers, '13 Spurs. Those were "as easy as humanely possible" to you?

[PsychoBe]

:eek: Source?

he tried to inject the bobcats with steroids the week before their game against the heat.

[JT123]

How was it easy when they got pushed to the brinks several times already? '12 Celtics, '12 Pacers, '13 Pacers, '13 Spurs. Those were "as easy as humanely possible" to you?
Just shows he hasn't even watched any of Miami's championship runs. I guess it is "easy" carrying superstars who average 16 ppg and 12 ppg for an entire playoff run. :facepalm Fact of the matter is that it took Lebron putting on superhuman performances in the ECF each of the last 3 years just for the Heat to make the Finals.

[DonDadda59]

How was it easy when they got pushed to the brinks several times already? '12 Celtics, '12 Pacers, '13 Pacers, '13 Spurs. Those were "as easy as humanely possible" to you?

Reading comprehension people :facepalm

Just because they underachieve against inferior teams doesn't change the fact that Lebron WANTED to make it as easy as humanly possible when he teamed up with a top 3 player/Finals MVP and a 20/10 franchise player. Obviously getting outplayed by Jason Terry in the finals wasn't in the 'it's gon be easy once the game starts' plan. As I'm sure it wasn't in his plans to get shutdown for long stretches by Boris Diaw and have to rely on a miracle from Jesus himself to save the squad from a Jurassic era Spurs team.

Just watch the victory parade they had after the decision and listen to what he says. He assumed he was going to win 8+ championships easily when he went to Miami.

Do people seriously think he left Cleveland for Miami because he thought they would be worse than the Cavs? :lol

Come on, the guy knew exactly what he was doing- stacking the deck completely in his favor to win as easily as possible. He didn't count on the Jason Terrys of the world not just laying down and rolling out the red carpet for him. But then again, competition is a foreign concept to him.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Reading comprehension people :facepalm

Just because they underachieve against inferior teams doesn't change the fact that Lebron WANTED to make it as easy as humanly possible when he teamed up with a top 3 player/Finals MVP and a 20/10 franchise player. Obviously getting outplayed by Jason Terry in the finals wasn't in the 'it's gon be easy once the game starts' plan. As I'm sure it wasn't in his plans to get shutdown for long stretches by Boris Diaw and have to rely on a miracle from Jesus himself to save the squad from a Jurassic era Spurs team.

Just watch the victory parade they had after the decision and listen to what he says. He assumed he was going to win 8+ championships easily when he went to Miami.

Do people seriously think he left Cleveland for Miami because he thought they would be worse than the Cavs? :lol

Come on, the guy knew exactly what he was doing- stacking the deck completely in his favor to win as easily as possible. He didn't count on the Jason Terrys of the world not just laying down and rolling out the red carpet for him. But then again, competition is a foreign concept to him.

Now you're backtracking. You said he wanted to make it as easy as possible AND he succeeded. Perhaps you should work on your reading comprehension.

The rest of your post is garbage about Terry and the '11 Finals that I never mentioned at all.

And obviously he wanted more help. Otherwise what's the point of leaving... But acting like his accomplishments don't mean anything is ridiculous.

[JT123]

Now you're backtracking. You said he wanted to make it as easy as possible AND he succeeded. Perhaps you should work on your reading comprehension.

The rest of your post is garbage about Terry and the '11 Finals that I never mentioned at all.
He's clearly not very intelligent. :lol

[DonDadda59]

Now you're backtracking. You said he wanted to make it as easy as possible AND he succeeded. Perhaps you should work on your reading comprehension.

Him underachieving with superior teams means I have reading comprehension problems? :wtf:

He succeeded in making the game as easy as possible with the decision. Pretty much the only things that have interfered with that is A) his sometimes subpar play B) Injuries. But even with injuries to the Heat, they have enough pieces to overcome lesser teams, as they've proven.

What team that they've faced since the decision has been better or more talented than the Heat? Exactly.


The rest of your post is garbage about Terry and the '11 Finals that I never mentioned at all.


Goes into the underachieving point. Heat were clearly the more talented team in 2011 and had Lebron not been outscored by Jason Terry, they would've won comfortably. He possibly cost Wade his second Finals MVP.


And obviously he wanted more help. Otherwise what's the point of leaving... But acting like his accomplishments don't mean anything is ridiculous.

Who said his accomplishments don't mean anything? He gets credit for what he's done and scorn for his less than stellar moments. Taking the coward's way out doesn't change any of that.

[joe]

The cavs routinely made mistakes building that team. Why stay? So your owner and gm can dick around and ruin your potential top 3 talent? Screw that. The best players understand you need smart front office people. Pat Riley is such a person. Melo should also leave NY because of the scrubs running that team. Love should leave Minny.

[FPJ]

wtf is this shit.jpg

I asked about other teams that were hated and other players that used to rustle jimmies.

All the BS about Lebron leaving, colluding, sucking in the final against the Mavs, etc were discussed a billion times already.

Oh, btw, almost forgot, do Kobe stans really forget what Kobe said about the BIG 3 or are they just ignoring Kobe's opinion? Or the fact that their team had D'ho, Nash, Gasol and Kobe on the same team while they were cheering like school girls thinking they're gonna win it all? Also lets not forget what players they had throughout history... :oldlol:

Do the Celtics fans really forget they had Ray, Pierce, Garnett and Rondo in the same team? Do they also forget what other players they had and how they got there? :oldlol:

Poor Chicago fans, having to live with Jordan, Pippen and all those scrubs for 6+ years :( .

Funny how their memory chooses what to remember and what not.
:coleman:

[MichaelCorleone]

Oh, btw, almost forgot, do Kobe stans really forget what Kobe said about the BIG 3 or are they just ignoring Kobe's opinion? Or the fact that their team had D'ho, Nash, Gasol and Kobe on the same team while they were cheering like school girls thinking they're gonna win it all? Also lets not forget what players they had throughout history... :oldlol:

Funny how their memory chooses what to remember and what not.
http://oi41.tinypic.com/33aass9.jpg

[Indian guy]

He succeeded in making the game as easy as possible with the decision.

How did he succeed though? Miami's '12 and '13 playoffs runs were the complete opposite of 'easy'.


Pretty much the only things that have interfered with that is A) his sometimes subpar play B) Injuries.

Yeah, I'd recommend watching something called the 2013 playoffs. A lot more than just occasional "subpar" play from LeBron and "injuries" interfered with their title run. Bosh, despite being fully healthy, was awful for much of the playoffs. And for all their talent, they do have a glaring weakness - lack of size. Which is the biggest reason why they have trailed in an unprecedented 5 of the 8 playoff series' the last 2 postseasons. Like all championship teams, no matter how talented, Miami has *GULP* flaws. Combine that with Wade's decline and injuries and what you get is 2 playoff runs from hell. It has been anything but 'easy' and the reasons go far deeper than what you listed. You are being intentionally dishonest if you think Miami's postseason issues the last 2 seasons have merely been self-imposed(LeBron "underperforming" :rolleyes:) and a case of bad luck (injuries). Mind you, there's nothing unlucky or freakish about Wade's constant injury issues. It has been the result of age and years of a reckless playing style. Also, given the fact that he was already 29 when The Decision took place, his immediate decline wasn't that hard to anticipate. This was never going to be a super team led by "2 of the 3 best players in the NBA". Not for more than 2 years at best, anyway. In reality, it turned out to be 1 year only.


What team that they've faced since the decision has been better or more talented than the Heat? Exactly.

Well, DUH. Who the **** wins while being worse and less talented than the opposition? I don't even understand what you're trying to prove here. Every ****ing team that wins did so because they were BETTER and more TALENTED than their competition. There are exceptions like the '04 Pistons, but really, you might see something like that once or twice in a decade in the NBA.


Taking the coward's way out doesn't change any of that.

He spent 7 years with a franchise who could never do better than surround him with 'Mo Williams. Sorry, but if LeBron truly was a coward, he would've demanded a trade long, long ago. And :rolleyes: @ mentioning their back-to-back 60+ wins season as if it proves something about that roster. That same roster couldn't even win 20 freaking games w/o LeBron the following season. By all means, he was working miracles there.

Bottom line: The Decision of joining Miami hasn't hurt LeBron's standing in history an iota. With 2 rings as the MAN under his belt, he's a universally recognized Top 10 player of all time today. Someone with an excellent chance of finishing #2. Maybe even higher. In other words, how he accomplished this or with whom hasn't mattered in the least. Only thing that mattered is that he did. And that burns the haters like no tomorrow. Speaking of them, LeBron haters fall into 3 categories 1) the butt-hurt ones who couldn't land him(mainly Chicago/NY fans - 2 massive and vocal fanbases) 2) The insecure/bitter ones - mainly MJ fans and all Kobe fans(2 biggest player fanbases on the net), the latter's worst nightmares came true after LeBron's clinching jumper in Game 7 of the '13 Finals. He surpassed their boy 3) The haters. The low lives. These are people who get tremendous joy out of other people's failures. They'll hate on anyone/anything if it's the cool thing to do. They jumped on the LeBron-hate wagon post-Decision and had a lot of fun with it. Naturally, that fun turned to anger after he began to succeed. So in reply, they hate more than ever. And it's so much fun ot watch. It's amazing how many people I run into who aren't even NBA fans, but still carry incredible dislike for LeBron. And that's actually great for the game. The 2010-current period has been the NBA's best since Jordan's retirement. There's just so much casual fan interest today. All thanks to the King :bowdown:

[sportjames23]

Literally everyone outside the Heat fanbase wants them to lose. I dont even think the Detroit Bad Boys were so genuinely hated.

There are people looking for the thinnest straws just to have something bad to say about Lebron. He rustled so many jimmies its unreal :oldlol: .

One thing's certain though, the Heat brought back excitement in the NBA :rockon: .


Has there ever been a more (discribed by them) persecuted group than Heat fans? :rolleyes:

[BoutPractice]

Team: Detroit
Player: Kobe circa 04

So... yeah.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Him underachieving with superior teams means I have reading comprehension problems? :wtf:

He succeeded in making the game as easy as possible with the decision. Pretty much the only things that have interfered with that is A) his sometimes subpar play B) Injuries. But even with injuries to the Heat, they have enough pieces to overcome lesser teams, as they've proven.

What team that they've faced since the decision has been better or more talented than the Heat? Exactly.



Goes into the underachieving point. Heat were clearly the more talented team in 2011 and had Lebron not been outscored by Jason Terry, they would've won comfortably. He possibly cost Wade his second Finals MVP.



Who said his accomplishments don't mean anything? He gets credit for what he's done and scorn for his less than stellar moments. Taking the coward's way out doesn't change any of that.

Surely if the Heat were as stacked as you say, they would have won even with Lebron playing sub-par like in the '11 Finals. Or they wouldn't need him to play out of his mind just to squeeze by in 7 games like the '12 and '13 ECF. Sure injuries came into play, but the way you're talking, one would think they're sweeping their opponents with ease.

[FPJ]

Has there ever been a more (discribed by them) persecuted group than Heat fans? :rolleyes:

This might be a topic for another thread (that i dont really care for). Let the stans battle it out (whoever has energy for this type of things, anyway).

Im curios if "neutral" fans cheered for the Heat to win against the Mavs, OKC or the Spurs.

[Rake2204]

This might be a topic for another thread (that i dont really care for). Let the stans battle it out (whoever has energy for this type of things, anyway).

Im curios if "neutral" fans cheered for the Heat to win against the Mavs, OKC or the Spurs.So folks can bypass my walls of text earlier, I'll keep it simple: I'm a Detroit Pistons fan who's had no vested interest in who wins the NBA championship the past few years (as the Pistons had absolutely no chance). I do not cheer for the Heat to win.

I understand my views are not undisputed truth, and I respect those who feel differently, but the Heat strike me as self-constructed overdogs and it's no fun for me to know creating a championship juggernaut is as simple as dream teamers deciding to combine forces somewhere. The fact they suffered through injuries and did not play up to their own potential and still were more talented than everyone else enough to win back-to-back NBA championships does not really soften the blow.

[greymatter]

Nice novel, but doesn't change the fact that MJ was handed hall of famers while Lebron was handed a bunch of guys who are no longer in the league. And any idiot knows there is no such thing as a "sure thing." See 2004 and 2013 Lakers for proof.

It also totally ignores the narrative that preceded The Decision --the fact that the Celtics just 3 years earlier did the same thing with the minor difference that management pulled it off rather than the players. Only butthurt retards go out of their way to hate on Lebron for doing what he did. He saw the Celtics form a big 3 and immediately win a title. If you were an NBA superstar with total control over the level of talent you play with, you'd have to be an overly trusting schlub or a complete imbecile to willingly give it up and put your destiny in the hands of management. The only things worth ripping on Lebron for are not keeping his word (to help Cleveland win a title) and the media circus he created with Teh Decision.

[joe]

So folks can bypass my walls of text earlier, I'll keep it simple: I'm a Detroit Pistons fan who's had no vested interest in who wins the NBA championship the past few years (as the Pistons had absolutely no chance). I do not cheer for the Heat to win.

I understand my views are not undisputed truth, and I respect those who feel differently, but the Heat strike me as self-constructed overdogs and it's no fun for me to know creating a championship juggernaut is as simple as dream teamers deciding to combine forces somewhere. The fact they suffered through injuries and did not play up to their own potential and still were more talented than everyone else enough to win back-to-back NBA championships does not really soften the blow.

I felt that way at first, but once they lost to Dallas it proved basketball wasn't as easy as just putting dream teamers together. I felt vindicated by that loss. But the next year you had Wade sacrificing shots, accepting his number 2 status. You had great ball movement and team defense. You had Lebron clearly work hard on his jump shot, becoming inguardable. I hated the Heat in 2011, but my opinion has changed and I am rooting for them. I want to see Lebron make history.

[NumberSix]

Him underachieving with superior teams means I have reading comprehension problems? :wtf:
It's underachieving because he didn't win the title every single year?

3 finals, 2 MVPs, 2 rings & 2 FMVPs in 3 seasons is "underachieving"?


Who the fcuk isn't underachieving right now? :confusedshrug:

[smoovegittar]

I do not hate LeBron James or the Miami Heat, but the situation he rightfully helped create is not one of which I derive enjoyment. As I've mentioned time and again, I'm a Detroit Pistons fan who also enjoyed LeBron James' exploits in rival Cleveland. For me personally, I liked watching one of the top two talents of my adult life (born '84) powerhousing through the league with whatever situation he was dealt. It was a great story for me and I felt at least one championship in Cleveland was inevitable for James, and likely more. And to be truthful, James could have gone ring-less and it still would have been clear to me that his talent and ability were once-in-a-lifetime/generation/ever types of things.

Unfortunately, I found the manner with which James jumped ship, collected stars, and seemingly attempted to fast forward to the easiest ring possible at odds with my ideas of competition and what I'd come to expect from James himself. For me the thought was, does winning mean the same if one willfully and successfully stacks the odds in one's favor? And maybe too I felt a bit like, "Being on a team (Cleveland) that reached the finals and most recently won 60+ games in back-to-back seasons yielded an attempted super team response because a championship did not yet occur? Competing each year wasn't enough?"

It felt like overkill, and I wasn't sure that was the true spirit behind the phrase, "Win at all costs". It all felt a little too close to, "Win at all costs... even if it means taking your rival team's best players and mashing them together with yourself on a separate entity, then turning around and using that new super power to dominate the league for years to come, in part because the stars you used to compete against are now on your team." And that's less fun for me as a fan, though again, it was surely all within each of those player's rights to make the moves they did.

TL;DR: For me, LeBron James went from monster and basketball savant destroying the league in a sort of underdog status, to one of the most overdog situations I've ever seen in my short life. Overdogs are tough for me to pull for to begin with, more so when considering the surrounding circumstances of the LeBron/Special Talent/Heat/TV Special/Cleveland thing.

I understand how you feel, and appreciate the time you took to represent yourself. Respect. :cheers:

[smoovegittar]

Numbersix has got to be one of the worst posters on this board.

He got jokes, tho...

[Lebron23]

Not in real life. Just in this forum, and some basketball forums.

[smoovegittar]

He lost to Detroit 3 times in a row in the playoffs before finally overcoming them (after being eliminated 2 times in a row by Bird's Celtics). And this was with him going through the punishing Jordan rules. His teams were so undermanned that Detroit focused all their energy on him and dared his teammates to step up. They were both physically and mentally way too weak to provide MJ any sort of real support.

1st series: Pippen and Grant were both bench players averaging 15-16 PPG COMBINED. Jordan led the team to 52 wins. Won MVP, DPOY, scoring title, steals title, etc. He had to put up 45/5/5 (56% FG) just to get them past Cleveland in 5 in the first round (Pip did have a mini coming out party in game 5). Then the Jordan Rules kicked in, Bulls bounced in 5.

2nd series: Bulls take a step backwards in the reg. season (47 wins) as Pip and Grant become starters. They have nice contributions but are still 2-3 years from championship help. Bulls get through CLE and the Knicks. They run into the Jordan Rules again, different year same result. Pip and Grant grossly underachieve, Bulls get bounced in 6.

*This is about where Bron would've jumped ship*

3rd Series: Pip and Grant continue steady improvement, but are still not star level. BJ Armstrong is drafted with the 18th pick, Bulls have a nice regular season (55 wins). They take out Bucks, Sixers, and run into the Jordan Rules again. Having experience and their players developing some more, the Bulls actually put up a fight and force a 7th game in the ECF. In that game Jordan put up 31/8/9 (48% FG). Grant had 10/14 (3-17 shooting), but the second best player on the team, Pip had a legendary choke of a game. Complaining about suffering from a migraine at the start of the game, he 2 pts on 1-10 shooting. Bulls lost, Detroit went on to beat Portland in 5.

Jordan's teammates, his second and third options saved their absolute worst performances for when their best was most needed. In all likelihood, had they showed up to the game and Chicago had prevailed... they would've beaten Portland in 6 maybe 7.

After that, Jordan had every right to do what Bron did... but he stayed the course. Rallied the troops, pushed them in practice to get better, get tougher. And the rest is History.

So we don't have to play the 'what if' or deal in hypotheticals. MJ suffered through much worse than Bron did in Cleveland, but he didn't take the coward's way out. Too much pride and competitive fire for that.



See above. And Bron never faced the sort of physical and psychological punishment Detroit unleashed on Jordan. MJ didn't magically receive help out of thin air. He was battling the Bad Boys when Pip and Grant were riding the bench and was still there 3 seasons later when they finally developed into 2nd and 3rd championship options.



The Cavs during Bron's last 2 seasons there were about as talented as the '94 Rockets, and you can make the case the '09-'10 were better/deeper than Hakeem's squad. Rick Barry's '75 squad was worse. 2003 Spurs had big names that were either finished (Robinson) or still developing Pippen/Grant style (Manu/Parker). Bron's squad obviously didn't have Wade/Bosh/Allen caliber talent but they were well rounded teams that were great defensively. They were good enough to post 60+ wins more than once.



You act like this dude was playing with a random YMCA squad. Jamison and Mo gave him a lot more than Pippen and Grant gave MJ their first few years. It's not like he was on a lottery team that had no shot at the playoffs. They were a contender. Just happened to run into a better squad as had many teams with championship aspirations in the past. Instead of being a leader- pushing guys to get better and mentally tougher as a team (obviously something he was unable to instill since he himself does not possess these qualities) or helping to further develop a talented young possible contributor like JJ Hickson... he instead bailed on a 60+ win team that was a contender to go for the sure thing... at age 26.

So forgive me for not weeping while you play your violin.



You really can't say what the period of anger/distaste for something like that is. Personally I was never a Cavs fan so I can only imagine what they felt watching that happen. I imagine it's not the sort of thing one just brushes aside and forgets right after it happens. But as a fan of the NBA and having watched legends of the past, I can't support that sort of cowardice.

Excellent response. This is why I come in here. This says a lot about Jordan's competitive fire (the like's of which I've yet to see). I also feel badly for the real Cleveland fans - but I got issues over here in NYC. Still, at the end of the day - I have no hatred towards teams or players. I never lose sight (or sleep) over entertainment. All these dudes are stacking WAY more paper than myself!

[Lebron23]

How can you win an NBA championship if Mo williams is your 2nd scoring option?? Jordan would have pull the trigger in his head if he play with More shots, More problem.

Lebron averaged 39/8/8 in the eastern conference finals and the magic beat them in 6 games.

[Lebron23]

http://www.esquire.com/cm/esquire/images/wU/esq-scottie-pippen-0112-lg.jpg

Bulls without Jordan in 1993-94- 55-27

http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/164/files/2010/08/Mo-Williams.jpg

Cavs without Lebron in 2010-11 - 19-63. and still zero playoffs appearance since 2010.

[Knoe Itawl]

He lost to Detroit 3 times in a row in the playoffs before finally overcoming them (after being eliminated 2 times in a row by Bird's Celtics). And this was with him going through the punishing Jordan rules. His teams were so undermanned that Detroit focused all their energy on him and dared his teammates to step up. They were both physically and mentally way too weak to provide MJ any sort of real support.

1st series: Pippen and Grant were both bench players averaging 15-16 PPG COMBINED. Jordan led the team to 52 wins. Won MVP, DPOY, scoring title, steals title, etc. He had to put up 45/5/5 (56% FG) just to get them past Cleveland in 5 in the first round (Pip did have a mini coming out party in game 5). Then the Jordan Rules kicked in, Bulls bounced in 5.

2nd series: Bulls take a step backwards in the reg. season (47 wins) as Pip and Grant become starters. They have nice contributions but are still 2-3 years from championship help. Bulls get through CLE and the Knicks. They run into the Jordan Rules again, different year same result. Pip and Grant grossly underachieve, Bulls get bounced in 6.

*This is about where Bron would've jumped ship*

3rd Series: Pip and Grant continue steady improvement, but are still not star level. BJ Armstrong is drafted with the 18th pick, Bulls have a nice regular season (55 wins). They take out Bucks, Sixers, and run into the Jordan Rules again. Having experience and their players developing some more, the Bulls actually put up a fight and force a 7th game in the ECF. In that game Jordan put up 31/8/9 (48% FG). Grant had 10/14 (3-17 shooting), but the second best player on the team, Pip had a legendary choke of a game. Complaining about suffering from a migraine at the start of the game, he 2 pts on 1-10 shooting. Bulls lost, Detroit went on to beat Portland in 5.

Jordan's teammates, his second and third options saved their absolute worst performances for when their best was most needed. In all likelihood, had they showed up to the game and Chicago had prevailed... they would've beaten Portland in 6 maybe 7.

After that, Jordan had every right to do what Bron did... but he stayed the course. Rallied the troops, pushed them in practice to get better, get tougher. And the rest is History.

So we don't have to play the 'what if' or deal in hypotheticals. MJ suffered through much worse than Bron did in Cleveland, but he didn't take the coward's way out. Too much pride and competitive fire for that.



See above. And Bron never faced the sort of physical and psychological punishment Detroit unleashed on Jordan. MJ didn't magically receive help out of thin air. He was battling the Bad Boys when Pip and Grant were riding the bench and was still there 3 seasons later when they finally developed into 2nd and 3rd championship options.



The Cavs during Bron's last 2 seasons there were about as talented as the '94 Rockets, and you can make the case the '09-'10 were better/deeper than Hakeem's squad. Rick Barry's '75 squad was worse. 2003 Spurs had big names that were either finished (Robinson) or still developing Pippen/Grant style (Manu/Parker). Bron's squad obviously didn't have Wade/Bosh/Allen caliber talent but they were well rounded teams that were great defensively. They were good enough to post 60+ wins more than once.



You act like this dude was playing with a random YMCA squad. Jamison and Mo gave him a lot more than Pippen and Grant gave MJ their first few years. It's not like he was on a lottery team that had no shot at the playoffs. They were a contender. Just happened to run into a better squad as had many teams with championship aspirations in the past. Instead of being a leader- pushing guys to get better and mentally tougher as a team (obviously something he was unable to instill since he himself does not possess these qualities) or helping to further develop a talented young possible contributor like JJ Hickson... he instead bailed on a 60+ win team that was a contender to go for the sure thing... at age 26.

So forgive me for not weeping while you play your violin.



You really can't say what the period of anger/distaste for something like that is. Personally I was never a Cavs fan so I can only imagine what they felt watching that happen. I imagine it's not the sort of thing one just brushes aside and forgets right after it happens. But as a fan of the NBA and having watched legends of the past, I can't support that sort of cowardice.

I'm well aware of Horace and Pip's initial struggles. However, Pip and Grant evolved into better players than anything Lebron had in Cleveland. And don't forget, PJax took the realm as well, while Bron had Mike Brown in Cleveland. The bottom line is, the Cavs, as constructed were not going to be competing for a chip anytime soon and Bron had already given them 7 years. Basically, people want it to go that Bird, Magic, Kobe, etc. can be fortunate enough to be handed HOF teammates and it's good for them, and if anyone else doesn't get it oh well suffer and get called a loser when you don't win instead of making your own fortune. I say ef that, it's not "cowardly" to want the same types of teams those players had and make it happen for yourself. It would be one thing if he jumped ship after 2 years or something. However he gave them seven years, dragged those teams beyond their talent. No one said he was playing with YMCA level players. They just weren't players that were going to compete against the Bostons, Lakers, etc. of that period. There was a clear talent differential vs those teams that even Bron wasn't going to overcome.

Also, as I pointed out Bron has earned everything with the Heat. Yes, they're top heavy but have some structural flaws that his talent has been able to overcome. They've also had injury/inconsistency issues out of Bosh and Wade.

Yeah, sorry I just don't see this coward, collusion, took the easy way out, etc. argument. It really boils down to me to some people just wanting a reason to be outraged.

[TheMan]

I think a lot of the dislike for LeBron is more of a result of his annoying fanbase, especially here. Me personally, I like LeBron, go ahead and check my posting history, I've never made an anti-LeBron thread. Actually, quite the opposite is true, I wrote a thread a while back favorably comparing the Heat to the 96 Bulls that got me a ton of shit from fellow Bulls fans:oldlol:

It boils down to this, LeBron has his faults like all humans do, but after all is said and done, he seems to be a good dude to me. Most of the flak he gets here is just to troll his fans and it's all done in fun and just having a laugh, some people take this hoops business way too serious:cheers:

[CelticBaller]

He lost to Detroit 3 times in a row in the playoffs before finally overcoming them (after being eliminated 2 times in a row by Bird's Celtics). And this was with him going through the punishing Jordan rules. His teams were so undermanned that Detroit focused all their energy on him and dared his teammates to step up. They were both physically and mentally way too weak to provide MJ any sort of real support.

1st series: Pippen and Grant were both bench players averaging 15-16 PPG COMBINED. Jordan led the team to 52 wins. Won MVP, DPOY, scoring title, steals title, etc. He had to put up 45/5/5 (56% FG) just to get them past Cleveland in 5 in the first round (Pip did have a mini coming out party in game 5). Then the Jordan Rules kicked in, Bulls bounced in 5.

2nd series: Bulls take a step backwards in the reg. season (47 wins) as Pip and Grant become starters. They have nice contributions but are still 2-3 years from championship help. Bulls get through CLE and the Knicks. They run into the Jordan Rules again, different year same result. Pip and Grant grossly underachieve, Bulls get bounced in 6.

*This is about where Bron would've jumped ship*

3rd Series: Pip and Grant continue steady improvement, but are still not star level. BJ Armstrong is drafted with the 18th pick, Bulls have a nice regular season (55 wins). They take out Bucks, Sixers, and run into the Jordan Rules again. Having experience and their players developing some more, the Bulls actually put up a fight and force a 7th game in the ECF. In that game Jordan put up 31/8/9 (48% FG). Grant had 10/14 (3-17 shooting), but the second best player on the team, Pip had a legendary choke of a game. Complaining about suffering from a migraine at the start of the game, he 2 pts on 1-10 shooting. Bulls lost, Detroit went on to beat Portland in 5.

Jordan's teammates, his second and third options saved their absolute worst performances for when their best was most needed. In all likelihood, had they showed up to the game and Chicago had prevailed... they would've beaten Portland in 6 maybe 7.

After that, Jordan had every right to do what Bron did... but he stayed the course. Rallied the troops, pushed them in practice to get better, get tougher. And the rest is History.

So we don't have to play the 'what if' or deal in hypotheticals. MJ suffered through much worse than Bron did in Cleveland, but he didn't take the coward's way out. Too much pride and competitive fire for that.



See above. And Bron never faced the sort of physical and psychological punishment Detroit unleashed on Jordan. MJ didn't magically receive help out of thin air. He was battling the Bad Boys when Pip and Grant were riding the bench and was still there 3 seasons later when they finally developed into 2nd and 3rd championship options.



The Cavs during Bron's last 2 seasons there were about as talented as the '94 Rockets, and you can make the case the '09-'10 were better/deeper than Hakeem's squad. Rick Barry's '75 squad was worse. 2003 Spurs had big names that were either finished (Robinson) or still developing Pippen/Grant style (Manu/Parker). Bron's squad obviously didn't have Wade/Bosh/Allen caliber talent but they were well rounded teams that were great defensively. They were good enough to post 60+ wins more than once.



You act like this dude was playing with a random YMCA squad. Jamison and Mo gave him a lot more than Pippen and Grant gave MJ their first few years. It's not like he was on a lottery team that had no shot at the playoffs. They were a contender. Just happened to run into a better squad as had many teams with championship aspirations in the past. Instead of being a leader- pushing guys to get better and mentally tougher as a team (obviously something he was unable to instill since he himself does not possess these qualities) or helping to further develop a talented young possible contributor like JJ Hickson... he instead bailed on a 60+ win team that was a contender to go for the sure thing... at age 26.

So forgive me for not weeping while you play your violin.



You really can't say what the period of anger/distaste for something like that is. Personally I was never a Cavs fan so I can only imagine what they felt watching that happen. I imagine it's not the sort of thing one just brushes aside and forgets right after it happens. But as a fan of the NBA and having watched legends of the past, I can't support that sort of cowardice.
/thread

[HiphopRelated]

He lost to Detroit 3 times in a row in the playoffs before finally overcoming them (after being eliminated 2 times in a row by Bird's Celtics). And this was with him going through the punishing Jordan rules. His teams were so undermanned that Detroit focused all their energy on him and dared his teammates to step up. They were both physically and mentally way too weak to provide MJ any sort of real support.

1st series: Pippen and Grant were both bench players averaging 15-16 PPG COMBINED. Jordan led the team to 52 wins. Won MVP, DPOY, scoring title, steals title, etc. He had to put up 45/5/5 (56% FG) just to get them past Cleveland in 5 in the first round (Pip did have a mini coming out party in game 5). Then the Jordan Rules kicked in, Bulls bounced in 5.

2nd series: Bulls take a step backwards in the reg. season (47 wins) as Pip and Grant become starters. They have nice contributions but are still 2-3 years from championship help. Bulls get through CLE and the Knicks. They run into the Jordan Rules again, different year same result. Pip and Grant grossly underachieve, Bulls get bounced in 6.

*This is about where Bron would've jumped ship*

3rd Series: Pip and Grant continue steady improvement, but are still not star level. BJ Armstrong is drafted with the 18th pick, Bulls have a nice regular season (55 wins). They take out Bucks, Sixers, and run into the Jordan Rules again. Having experience and their players developing some more, the Bulls actually put up a fight and force a 7th game in the ECF. In that game Jordan put up 31/8/9 (48% FG). Grant had 10/14 (3-17 shooting), but the second best player on the team, Pip had a legendary choke of a game. Complaining about suffering from a migraine at the start of the game, he 2 pts on 1-10 shooting. Bulls lost, Detroit went on to beat Portland in 5.

Jordan's teammates, his second and third options saved their absolute worst performances for when their best was most needed. In all likelihood, had they showed up to the game and Chicago had prevailed... they would've beaten Portland in 6 maybe 7.

After that, Jordan had every right to do what Bron did... but he stayed the course. Rallied the troops, pushed them in practice to get better, get tougher. And the rest is History.

So we don't have to play the 'what if' or deal in hypotheticals. MJ suffered through much worse than Bron did in Cleveland, but he didn't take the coward's way out. Too much pride and competitive fire for that.



See above. And Bron never faced the sort of physical and psychological punishment Detroit unleashed on Jordan. MJ didn't magically receive help out of thin air. He was battling the Bad Boys when Pip and Grant were riding the bench and was still there 3 seasons later when they finally developed into 2nd and 3rd championship options.



The Cavs during Bron's last 2 seasons there were about as talented as the '94 Rockets, and you can make the case the '09-'10 were better/deeper than Hakeem's squad. Rick Barry's '75 squad was worse. 2003 Spurs had big names that were either finished (Robinson) or still developing Pippen/Grant style (Manu/Parker). Bron's squad obviously didn't have Wade/Bosh/Allen caliber talent but they were well rounded teams that were great defensively. They were good enough to post 60+ wins more than once.



You act like this dude was playing with a random YMCA squad. Jamison and Mo gave him a lot more than Pippen and Grant gave MJ their first few years. It's not like he was on a lottery team that had no shot at the playoffs. They were a contender. Just happened to run into a better squad as had many teams with championship aspirations in the past. Instead of being a leader- pushing guys to get better and mentally tougher as a team (obviously something he was unable to instill since he himself does not possess these qualities) or helping to further develop a talented young possible contributor like JJ Hickson... he instead bailed on a 60+ win team that was a contender to go for the sure thing... at age 26.

So forgive me for not weeping while you play your violin.



You really can't say what the period of anger/distaste for something like that is. Personally I was never a Cavs fan so I can only imagine what they felt watching that happen. I imagine it's not the sort of thing one just brushes aside and forgets right after it happens. But as a fan of the NBA and having watched legends of the past, I can't support that sort of cowardice.
Nope, nice novel but a lot of writing doesn't make it true. Cavs had aging vets, only young piece of any promise was an undersized Hickson.

They were picking in the high 20s and 30, not late lottery to teens, so the expectation that some potential elite piece would fall is pretty much out of realistic possibility.

All Cavs showed the ability to do was trade for overpaid vets on the tail ends of their career.

[aj1987]

Nope, nice novel but a lot of writing doesn't make it true. Cavs had aging vets, only young piece of any promise was an undersized Hickson.

They were picking in the high 20s and 30, not late lottery to teens, so the expectation that some potential elite piece would fall is pretty much out of realistic possibility.

All Cavs showed the ability to do was trade for overpaid vets on the tail ends of their career.
Honestly, that dude is one of the biggest Jordan dickrider on this board. Makes Swish look like a casual MJ fan. What that guy forgot was that MJ won in his 7th year. His teammates stepped up massively in the playoffs. The whole team damn near averaged over 50% shooting for the ENTIRE playoffs. Including Paxon going ham in the Finals and Scottie averaging 22/9/6/3 over the playoffs with elite defense (a significant improvement from his RS numbers). Had a terrific ECF as well 22/8/5/3/2.

The Bulls won 61 games that season.

The Cav's won 61 games as well, during LeBron's 7th season. LeBron had a monster season, which was equal to or better than MJ's. The playoffs came along and the first series was against the Bulls. The Cav's and LeBron toyed with and they got demolished. LeBron had a terrific series. Then came the ECSF. People say that he "choked" and "quit" on his team, but they fail to realize that the Cav's second best player was a 37 year old Shaq, who was about a year away from retirement and sucked balls. LeBron still had a pretty good series. 27/9/7/2/1 on 56% TS. His teammates though...

Mo went from 16/5/3 on 58% in the RS to 13/3/5 on 52%.
Jamison (yeah, I know he only played 25) went from 16/8 on 53% TS in the RS to 12/7 on 48% TS.

Also, what happened to the Cleveland defense? The Cav's went from 95.6 points allowed (in the RS) to 100.5 in the ECSF.

Lets forget that all of that happened and just blame LeBron. The Cav's had 3 top 5 draft pick since LeBron left. How are they doing now? Oh yeah, they haven't made the Playoffs since. The Cav's management has been terrible and still is, but lets not blame. Let's just blame LeBron. Also, who was the coach then? Mike Brown. The same coach that people deride even today. Went to the Lakers and the Laker "fans" HATED him. Came back to the Cav's and is still being ridiculed for being a dumbass.

[Rose'sACL]

Everyone knows DonDadda59 is as biased as people who think that wilt used to only dunk on short white guys.
The only difference is that he shits on current players and on ISH that means that you're a good poster no matter if all you post is shit.

[Nevaeh]

I'm well aware of Horace and Pip's initial struggles. However, Pip and Grant evolved into better players than anything Lebron had in Cleveland. And don't forget, PJax took the realm as well, while Bron had Mike Brown in Cleveland. The bottom line is, the Cavs, as constructed were not going to be competing for a chip anytime soon and Bron had already given them 7 years. Basically, people want it to go that Bird, Magic, Kobe, etc. can be fortunate enough to be handed HOF teammates and it's good for them, and if anyone else doesn't get it oh well suffer and get called a loser when you don't win instead of making your own fortune. I say ef that, it's not "cowardly" to want the same types of teams those players had and make it happen for yourself. It would be one thing if he jumped ship after 2 years or something. However he gave them seven years, dragged those teams beyond their talent. No one said he was playing with YMCA level players. They just weren't players that were going to compete against the Bostons, Lakers, etc. of that period. There was a clear talent differential vs those teams that even Bron wasn't going to overcome.

Also, as I pointed out Bron has earned everything with the Heat. Yes, they're top heavy but have some structural flaws that his talent has been able to overcome. They've also had injury/inconsistency issues out of Bosh and Wade.

Yeah, sorry I just don't see this coward, collusion, took the easy way out, etc. argument. It really boils down to me to some people just wanting a reason to be outraged.

Great post. The storyline for Lebron, at least for his already existing haters here (yes he's had plenty even before Da Decision), was that he'd stay a loser forever in order to give bragging rights to peeps who think that their "guy" is a better player.

I can still remember the "ringless"pics, the "empty trophy case" pics, and all of that other bullsh!t that peeps were posting. Now that Lebron is racking up rings they're basically looking like bitter fools, who have now had their main trump card (ringless Lebron) taken away from them. The fact that he's winning as Da Man, all while still piling on the accolades, has now become sensory overload for some of those same peeps.

Oh F@cking Well.

[kamil]

He lost to Detroit 3 times in a row in the playoffs before finally overcoming them (after being eliminated 2 times in a row by Bird's Celtics). And this was with him going through the punishing Jordan rules. His teams were so undermanned that Detroit focused all their energy on him and dared his teammates to step up. They were both physically and mentally way too weak to provide MJ any sort of real support.

1st series: Pippen and Grant were both bench players averaging 15-16 PPG COMBINED. Jordan led the team to 52 wins. Won MVP, DPOY, scoring title, steals title, etc. He had to put up 45/5/5 (56% FG) just to get them past Cleveland in 5 in the first round (Pip did have a mini coming out party in game 5). Then the Jordan Rules kicked in, Bulls bounced in 5.

2nd series: Bulls take a step backwards in the reg. season (47 wins) as Pip and Grant become starters. They have nice contributions but are still 2-3 years from championship help. Bulls get through CLE and the Knicks. They run into the Jordan Rules again, different year same result. Pip and Grant grossly underachieve, Bulls get bounced in 6.

*This is about where Bron would've jumped ship*

3rd Series: Pip and Grant continue steady improvement, but are still not star level. BJ Armstrong is drafted with the 18th pick, Bulls have a nice regular season (55 wins). They take out Bucks, Sixers, and run into the Jordan Rules again. Having experience and their players developing some more, the Bulls actually put up a fight and force a 7th game in the ECF. In that game Jordan put up 31/8/9 (48% FG). Grant had 10/14 (3-17 shooting), but the second best player on the team, Pip had a legendary choke of a game. Complaining about suffering from a migraine at the start of the game, he 2 pts on 1-10 shooting. Bulls lost, Detroit went on to beat Portland in 5.

Jordan's teammates, his second and third options saved their absolute worst performances for when their best was most needed. In all likelihood, had they showed up to the game and Chicago had prevailed... they would've beaten Portland in 6 maybe 7.

After that, Jordan had every right to do what Bron did... but he stayed the course. Rallied the troops, pushed them in practice to get better, get tougher. And the rest is History.

So we don't have to play the 'what if' or deal in hypotheticals. MJ suffered through much worse than Bron did in Cleveland, but he didn't take the coward's way out. Too much pride and competitive fire for that.



See above. And Bron never faced the sort of physical and psychological punishment Detroit unleashed on Jordan. MJ didn't magically receive help out of thin air. He was battling the Bad Boys when Pip and Grant were riding the bench and was still there 3 seasons later when they finally developed into 2nd and 3rd championship options.



The Cavs during Bron's last 2 seasons there were about as talented as the '94 Rockets, and you can make the case the '09-'10 were better/deeper than Hakeem's squad. Rick Barry's '75 squad was worse. 2003 Spurs had big names that were either finished (Robinson) or still developing Pippen/Grant style (Manu/Parker). Bron's squad obviously didn't have Wade/Bosh/Allen caliber talent but they were well rounded teams that were great defensively. They were good enough to post 60+ wins more than once.



You act like this dude was playing with a random YMCA squad. Jamison and Mo gave him a lot more than Pippen and Grant gave MJ their first few years. It's not like he was on a lottery team that had no shot at the playoffs. They were a contender. Just happened to run into a better squad as had many teams with championship aspirations in the past. Instead of being a leader- pushing guys to get better and mentally tougher as a team (obviously something he was unable to instill since he himself does not possess these qualities) or helping to further develop a talented young possible contributor like JJ Hickson... he instead bailed on a 60+ win team that was a contender to go for the sure thing... at age 26.

So forgive me for not weeping while you play your violin.



You really can't say what the period of anger/distaste for something like that is. Personally I was never a Cavs fan so I can only imagine what they felt watching that happen. I imagine it's not the sort of thing one just brushes aside and forgets right after it happens. But as a fan of the NBA and having watched legends of the past, I can't support that sort of cowardice.

:applause:

[zoom17]

Great post. The storyline for Lebron, at least for his already existing haters here (yes he's had plenty even before Da Decision), was that he'd stay a loser forever in order to give bragging rights to peeps who think that their "guy" is a better player.

I can still remember the "ringless"pics, the "empty trophy case" pics, and all of that other bullsh!t that peeps were posting. Now that Lebron is racking up rings they're basically looking like bitter fools, who have now had their main trump card (ringless Lebron) taken away from them. The fact that he's winning as Da Man, all while still piling on the accolades, has now become sensory overload for some of those same peeps.

Oh F@cking Well.

:applause:

[Shade8780]

Ive never seen anyone say "rustle my jimmies."

[kamil]

Ive never seen anyone say "rustle my jimmies."

I haven't seen either.... I have heard though.

[sportjames23]

He lost to Detroit 3 times in a row in the playoffs before finally overcoming them (after being eliminated 2 times in a row by Bird's Celtics). And this was with him going through the punishing Jordan rules. His teams were so undermanned that Detroit focused all their energy on him and dared his teammates to step up. They were both physically and mentally way too weak to provide MJ any sort of real support.

1st series: Pippen and Grant were both bench players averaging 15-16 PPG COMBINED. Jordan led the team to 52 wins. Won MVP, DPOY, scoring title, steals title, etc. He had to put up 45/5/5 (56% FG) just to get them past Cleveland in 5 in the first round (Pip did have a mini coming out party in game 5). Then the Jordan Rules kicked in, Bulls bounced in 5.

2nd series: Bulls take a step backwards in the reg. season (47 wins) as Pip and Grant become starters. They have nice contributions but are still 2-3 years from championship help. Bulls get through CLE and the Knicks. They run into the Jordan Rules again, different year same result. Pip and Grant grossly underachieve, Bulls get bounced in 6.

*This is about where Bron would've jumped ship*

3rd Series: Pip and Grant continue steady improvement, but are still not star level. BJ Armstrong is drafted with the 18th pick, Bulls have a nice regular season (55 wins). They take out Bucks, Sixers, and run into the Jordan Rules again. Having experience and their players developing some more, the Bulls actually put up a fight and force a 7th game in the ECF. In that game Jordan put up 31/8/9 (48% FG). Grant had 10/14 (3-17 shooting), but the second best player on the team, Pip had a legendary choke of a game. Complaining about suffering from a migraine at the start of the game, he 2 pts on 1-10 shooting. Bulls lost, Detroit went on to beat Portland in 5.

Jordan's teammates, his second and third options saved their absolute worst performances for when their best was most needed. In all likelihood, had they showed up to the game and Chicago had prevailed... they would've beaten Portland in 6 maybe 7.

After that, Jordan had every right to do what Bron did... but he stayed the course. Rallied the troops, pushed them in practice to get better, get tougher. And the rest is History.

So we don't have to play the 'what if' or deal in hypotheticals. MJ suffered through much worse than Bron did in Cleveland, but he didn't take the coward's way out. Too much pride and competitive fire for that.



See above. And Bron never faced the sort of physical and psychological punishment Detroit unleashed on Jordan. MJ didn't magically receive help out of thin air. He was battling the Bad Boys when Pip and Grant were riding the bench and was still there 3 seasons later when they finally developed into 2nd and 3rd championship options.



The Cavs during Bron's last 2 seasons there were about as talented as the '94 Rockets, and you can make the case the '09-'10 were better/deeper than Hakeem's squad. Rick Barry's '75 squad was worse. 2003 Spurs had big names that were either finished (Robinson) or still developing Pippen/Grant style (Manu/Parker). Bron's squad obviously didn't have Wade/Bosh/Allen caliber talent but they were well rounded teams that were great defensively. They were good enough to post 60+ wins more than once.



You act like this dude was playing with a random YMCA squad. Jamison and Mo gave him a lot more than Pippen and Grant gave MJ their first few years. It's not like he was on a lottery team that had no shot at the playoffs. They were a contender. Just happened to run into a better squad as had many teams with championship aspirations in the past. Instead of being a leader- pushing guys to get better and mentally tougher as a team (obviously something he was unable to instill since he himself does not possess these qualities) or helping to further develop a talented young possible contributor like JJ Hickson... he instead bailed on a 60+ win team that was a contender to go for the sure thing... at age 26.

So forgive me for not weeping while you play your violin.



You really can't say what the period of anger/distaste for something like that is. Personally I was never a Cavs fan so I can only imagine what they felt watching that happen. I imagine it's not the sort of thing one just brushes aside and forgets right after it happens. But as a fan of the NBA and having watched legends of the past, I can't support that sort of cowardice.


Realest post ever at ISH. :cheers: