Why did teams in the past average such high ppg if defense was tougher

[rlsmooth775]

lets discuss

[Trentknicks]

Wilt preserved his energy for the women after the game.

[DonDadda59]

Unathletic midgets have a penchant for scoring buckets in bunches. Case in point- This game from 1987 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sExg4ta2gbY)

[JT123]

Cause the whole "tough defense" era of the 80's and 90's is nothing more than tall tales, similar to Paul Bunion and John Henry. Some fans are desperate to keep believing MJ will never be surpassed, so they make up stories about how he was punched, kicked, and put in a head lock every time he drove to the basket with no fouls called. :rolleyes:

[CavaliersFTW]

someone with your level of ignorance could just as easily conclude that maybe the offensive players were simply better

[DonDadda59]

Cause the whole "tough defense" era of the 80's and 90's is nothing more than tall tales, similar to Paul Bunion and John Henry. Some fans are desperate to keep believing MJ will never be surpassed, so they make up stories about how he was punched, kicked, and put in a head lock every time he drove to the basket with no fouls called. :rolleyes:

You sayin my nigguh Paul Bunion is a 'tall tale'? :confusedshrug:

http://www.prosportstickers.com/product_images/p/paul_bunion_funny_decal_name_sticker__15406.jpg

[Pacer24]

No great centers in the league anymore.

[Young X]

Higher pace/more possessions.

The offensive efficiency in 1985 and 2011 is the exact same, the game was just faster back then. Simple.

[KirbyPls]

OP catching feelings?

Everyone knows that MJ, Lebron, KD, and Kobe would be lucky, very lucky to even make their JV teams in the 50s, 60s and 70s, I mean back then their were only 8 teams, thus the best players in the world were all concentrated in a few teams. Talk about stacked. Plus, way more people played basketball worldwide back then, so the talent pool was substantially larger. Not to mention training, athleticism, diet, PEDs, film, offensive and defensive schemes, travel, and facilities were all light years beyond what we have now in this weak, beta, era we have now. The average, current NBA athlete would be lucky to make his local YMCA team back in the days of Russell, Wilt, Nate, Sam, and Tommy. Go ask Russell, he will tell you the same thing.

[livinglegend]

Higher pace/more possessions.

The offensive efficiency in 1985 and 2011 is the exact same, the game was just faster back then. Simple.

prove?

[JebronLames]

Lebron averages 37-11-11 in the 80's.

[DonDadda59]

Higher pace/more possessions.

The offensive efficiency in 1985 and 2011 is the exact same, the game was just faster back then. Simple.

Pure Bunions, brah. File em down.

[JT123]

Lebron averages 37-11-11 in the 80's.
Bron wouldn't be able to handle the physicality though. John Stockton could, but 6'8 250 pound Lebron would get punk'd by monsters like John Starks and Isiah Thomas.

[Young X]

prove?http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html

1985: 102.1 pace - 49.6 EFG% - 107.9 ORTG

2011: 92.1 pace - 49.8 EFG% - 107.3 ORTG

More possessions, same scoring efficiency.

[KirbyPls]

Bron wouldn't be able to handle the physicality though. John Stockton could, but 6'8 250 pound Lebron would get punk'd by monsters like John Starks and Isiah Thomas.

This! Not to mention Goliaths like Starks and Stockton would have their a$$s handed to them from Cousy and Tommy H.

[livinglegend]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html

1985: 102.1 pace - 49.6 EFG%

2011: 92.1 pace - 49.8 EFG%

More possessions, same scoring efficiency.

thx

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Lebron averages 37-11-11 in the 80's.
this and in the 90s it would look only slighlty worse

[DonDadda59]

Bron wouldn't be able to handle the physicality though. John Stockton could, but 6'8 250 pound Lebron would get punk'd by monsters like John Starks and Isiah Thomas.

Knicks would've put Mason on him and the Pistons would've had Rodman on him. But I'm sure the guy who couldn't do a damn thing against the likes of Bruce Bowen, Shawn Marion, or Boris Diaw in an era where physicality is outlawed would be able to do big things against the Pippens and Rodmans of the world. :lol

[DonDadda59]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html

1985: 102.1 pace - 49.6 EFG% - 107.9 ORTG

2011: 92.1 pace - 49.8 EFG% - 107.3 ORTG

More possessions, same scoring efficiency.

And back then teams relied on inside scoring more, with big men being the focus of offenses generally. This era is all about perimeter players and jumpers/3s... but the efficiency is more or less the same?

Pure Bunions.

[VIP2000]

Knicks would've put Mason on him and the Pistons would've had Rodman on him. But I'm sure the guy who couldn't do a damn thing against the likes of Bruce Bowen, Shawn Marion, or Boris Diaw in an era where physicality is outlawed would be able to do big things against the Pippens and Rodmans of the world. :lol

So were guys like Johnny Newman and Sherman Douglas better than LeBron then? Those guys were able to average high teens/low 20's in the 90's. U don't think LeBron could adjust? Lol

[el gringos]

They passed the ball and they could shoot better. Now it's isolation because the players are too important to be coached.

[DonDadda59]

So were guys like Johnny Newman and Sherman Douglas better than LeBron then? Those guys were able to average high teens/low 20's in the 90's. U don't think LeBron could adjust? Lol

I think Lebron's relatively mediocre ball handling ability and his subpar off the ball play would make him less effective. He'd still be great no doubt, but he has never shown the ability to adjust to slightly above average physical play (see: Vs Bowen 2007, Pierce 2008). Or just look at this one play from the damn all star game when old man Kobe rendered him completely useless by simply handchecking him full court:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XxsN8jITds

Now imagine instead of a broken down Bean, prime Pippen or Rodman in a playoff/finals atmosphere.

[NumberSix]

In the 80s, it was impossible to dunk or layup. From what I hear, centers would "take your head off" anytime you went to the basket.

[NumberSix]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html

1985: 102.1 pace - 49.6 EFG% - 107.9 ORTG

2011: 92.1 pace - 49.8 EFG% - 107.3 ORTG

More possessions, same scoring efficiency.
You know why there was more possessions?

The offense took less time to get a good shot because nobody played defense :hammerhead:

[Nikola_]

In the 80s, it was impossible to dunk or layup. From what I hear, centers would "take your head off" anytime you went to the basket.

In the 80s the head, in the 10s the headband.

weak era:applause:

[JT123]

I think Lebron's relatively mediocre ball handling ability and his subpar off the ball play would make him less effective. He'd still be great no doubt, but he has never shown the ability to adjust to slightly above average physical play (see: Vs Bowen 2007, Pierce 2008). Or just look at this one play from the damn all star game when old man Kobe rendered him completely useless by simply handchecking him full court:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XxsN8jITds

Now imagine instead of a broken down Bean, prime Pippen or Rodman in a playoff/finals atmosphere.
:biggums: Pierce? Lebron averages about 30 ppg against Pierce for his career. :facepalm Obviously Lebron struggled mightily early on in that 2008 series, but it sure wasn't because of Pierce's defense. :oldlol: I don't know if you realize this, but sometimes great players just have a bad stretch of games.

[moe94]

In the 80s, it was impossible to dunk or layup. From what I hear, centers would "take your head off" anytime you went to the basket.

How would you even get into the lane when everyone was a lockdown defender?

[JT123]

In the 80s, it was impossible to dunk or layup. From what I hear, centers would "take your head off" anytime you went to the basket.
This is true. Back in the 80's players were literally allowed to shoot you if you dared to go into the paint. :lol

[atljonesbro]

This is true. Back in the 80's players were literally allowed to shoot you if you dared to go into the paint. :lol
Lol so they didn't even play defense they just physically attacked you :lol Lol at "elite" defensive era :roll: :roll:

[SHAQisGOAT]

This:


Higher pace/more possessions.

The offensive efficiency in 1985 and 2011 is the exact same, the game was just faster back then. Simple.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html

1985: 102.1 pace - 49.6 EFG% - 107.9 ORTG

2011: 92.1 pace - 49.8 EFG% - 107.3 ORTG

More possessions, same scoring efficiency.

And to that, I add this:


They passed the ball and they could shoot better. Now it's isolation because the players are too important to be coached.

Well said, more sharing of the ball to get the best available shots as soon as they were there - not milking out the clock - plus better mid-range game. I would add that they played closer to the hoop too, higher % shots, and also better bigs and overall post-game around the league.

[jzek]

I was :oldlol: the other day watching some YouTube vids because back then it was unheard of that you dribble using the opposite hand :oldlol: They were so baffled when they saw Cousy doing it.

[Euroleague]

Bron wouldn't be able to handle the physicality though. John Stockton could, but 6'8 250 pound Lebron would get punk'd by monsters like John Starks and Isiah Thomas.

If LeBron gets a hangnail he's crying.........are you kidding me? Without the refs coddling him, he's the biggest baby ever.

What the hell does his size have to do with anything?

[atljonesbro]

Lol at all the old school fans being proud of not actually playing defense and just physically attacking the offensive player :oldlol:. Dat weak minded defense.

[JT123]

Lol at all the old school fans being proud of not actually playing defense and just physically attacking the offensive player :oldlol:. Dat weak minded defense.
This. :lol :cheers:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Everyone knows the most effective defense is to just give the player two free throws.

[Bandito]

because the offense was even tougher [/thread]

[Rose'sACL]

in the 80s, if you drove to the basket, you'd get punched in the neck. The great players of those eras had great neck muscles. You can't work out and have better neck muscles, you are just born with them.
Today's players hare malnourished and lack strong necks. As CavsFTW will tell you, players have gotten weaker since the 60s. The 60s which had less than 50% black players in a 8 team league( source fplii) was clearly not racist against whites like league is right now. Just imagine if the league was not close to 80% non-white right now.

[gts]

In the 80s, it was impossible to dunk or layup. From what I hear, centers would "take your head off" anytime you went to the basket.

Utter bullsh*t

[cltcfn2924]

Knicks would've put Mason on him and the Pistons would've had Rodman on him. But I'm sure the guy who couldn't do a damn thing against the likes of Bruce Bowen, Shawn Marion, or Boris Diaw in an era where physicality is outlawed would be able to do big things against the Pippens and Rodmans of the world. :lol

Yeah, bowling over people in the lane back then would not have worked well for him. Laimbeer, Oatley, both Malones, Barkley, jeez he would have been on his back all night.

[JebronLames]

Offense and defense are better now. Read about Charles Darwin's theory of evolution. It will explain everything.

[ILLsmak]

rofl paul bunion

hahahaha...

Nothing else in this thread is worth commenting on.

-Smak

[diamenz]

cuz they weren't busy chucking and missing 3's 4 secs into the shot clock.

[Prometheus]

Offense and defense are better now. Read about Charles Darwin's theory of evolution. It will explain everything.

:facepalm Please tell us about environmental selection pressures and genotype variations, and how these concepts apply to the National Basketball Association.

[aj1987]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html

1985: 102.1 pace - 49.6 EFG% - 107.9 ORTG

2011: 92.1 pace - 49.8 EFG% - 107.3 ORTG

More possessions, same scoring efficiency.
The numbers in that link are actually very interesting. The pace of the league has been going up massively. The highest since the '94 season. Also, the league average PPG has increased as well. Highest since the '95 season. The FT attempts have also dropped a lot since the '90's, even with the pace being the same. Higher pace today and fewer FT's, compared to a couple of the '90's seasons.

[Nuff Said]

I ask, what if the eras were reversed and we started out with this iso-dribble-the-ball-all-clock one-on-one game then revered to the back-to-the-basket post game. How would we all feel? I could imagine something like "all they do is back up their opponent and lob it in for an easy basket doesn't take real skill."

[hitmanyr2k]

Bron wouldn't be able to handle the physicality though. John Stockton could, but 6'8 250 pound Lebron would get punk'd by monsters like John Starks and Isiah Thomas.

Please don't use that excuse. Lebron couldn't score on this hobbit or 38 year old 6'3 Jason Kidd when it mattered :oldlol: The Mavericks straight up disrespected Lebron in that series letting midgets like Barea and Kidd guard him and he could still do nothing. That's probably the main thing that finally made him wise the **** up and work on a post game.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/1001/nba_g_james_gb2_576.jpg

http://nimg.sulekha.com/sports/original700/jose-juan-barea-lebron-james-2011-5-31-22-50-0.jpg

http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Jason+Kidd+Dallas+Mavericks+v+Miami+Heat+Game+GF_U nHLBPPAl.jpg

[f0und]

better fundamentals all across the board

passing
midrange shooting
teamwork

theres a reason why basketball isnt as popular today. i talk to people all the time who used to like basketball and they all say the same thing. NBA basketball is less of a team game than it has ever been. and thats why they stick to college bball.

[aj1987]

Please don't use that excuse. Lebron couldn't score on this hobbit or 38 year old 6'3 Jason Kidd when it mattered :oldlol: The Mavericks straight up disrespected Lebron in that series letting midgets like Barea and Kidd guard him and he could still do nothing. That's probably the main thing that finally made him wise the **** up and work on a post game.

Barea flops like crazy every time LeBron tries to back him down. A slight bump from LeBron and Barea ended up in the third row. I was actually Marion and his help defense that actually slowed him down. That coupled with LeBron being a passive bitch led to his '11 Finals performance. Do you idiots not remember what he did to the Bulls' defense (one of the best defenses in a LONG time) in the previous round or the #2 (that season) ranked Celtics, the round before that?

[hitmanyr2k]

Barea flops like crazy every time LeBron tries to back him down. A slight bump from LeBron and Barea ended up in the third row. I was actually Marion and his help defense that actually slowed him down. That coupled with LeBron being a passive bitch led to his '11 Finals performance. Do you idiots not remember what he did to the Bulls' defense (one of the best defenses in a LONG time) in the previous round or the #2 (that season) ranked Celtics, the round before that?

You don't have to ram into some little hobbit when you have skill :oldlol: Lebron didn't even know what he wanted to do when he backed anyone down because he had no post moves or counters to speak of. When Lebron's jumper went cold he had nothing left to rely on except fast break buckets. That's why he played passive. Once that jumper stopped falling and the fast breaks dried up he had nothing left in the arsenal. That's why the Mavs could get away with putting Barea or Kidd on him in the half court.

[fpliii]

better fundamentals all across the board

passing
midrange shooting
teamwork

theres a reason why basketball isnt as popular today. i talk to people all the time who used to like basketball and they all say the same thing. NBA basketball is less of a team game than it has ever been. and thats why they stick to college bball.
College hoops is unwatchable dude.

[Da_Realist]

better fundamentals all across the board

passing
midrange shooting
teamwork

Yep. It's hard to stop a team from scoring that has 4 or 5 guys on the floor that can knock down a midrange shot and are automatic when left open.

[diamenz]

better fundamentals all across the board

passing
midrange shooting
teamwork

theres a reason why basketball isnt as popular today. i talk to people all the time who used to like basketball and they all say the same thing. NBA basketball is less of a team game than it has ever been. and thats why they stick to college bball.

this - well said. simple and true.

[SuperPippen]

Pace.



And yea, hate to break it to ya, but Bran is a pansy.

[KingBeasley08]

Defense in the olden days was a joke. I know many older posters are gonna be offended but it's the truth. As time goes on, the game evolves. I know 20 years from now, I'm not gonna be as stubborn as these geezers stuck in the past :oldlol: