I cannot take this current era of players seriously because of no hand checking

[keep-itreal]

Lebron and Kobe will never be greater than michael jordan.

They are playing in an era when a defender is not allowed to touch you when driving to the basketball. Do people just not see how ridiculous this is? Lebron and Kobe can drive to the basketball all day without someone placing a finger on them. It's just too easy. The rules cater to them so they can score easily.

Am I right?

[gts]

No you're not right

[ralph_i_el]

:facepalm

[pauk]

Contact is still allowed just as much (body), you are just not allowed to put your hands on them and imo you can still do that today to some extent (many get away with it).....

I dont know why everybody just think defense immediately they hear about handchecking? Its not like you were not allowed to counter it! While handchecking makes it even tougher for you to drive you as an offensive player were allowed to use your hands aswell (something MJ managed to exploit to hell).... so its a 50-50 here.... today using your hands as an offensive player (to push of, move away opponents hands etc.) is an automatic foul....

Somebody like Lebron on the perimeter in the 90s would abuse the freedom of handchecking offensively & defensively dramatically i think.... he is already so big & strong out there and now you allow him to use his hands offensively? No matter how much the defender handchecks him, HE would win that battle countering it with his physique / own hands.

Lebron i think would actually benefit from handchecking, Durant however might not prevail equally well.

[KobesFinger]

Hand-checking isn't something that makes it impossible to drive. The defender just isn't allowed to keep his hand on the offensive player. We could flip your argument and say Jordan is an overrated defender because he was allowed to hand check whereas the current era isn't.

[Quickening]

Have you see the size of Lebron compared to Jordan... and you think a less physical era benefits him more? :facepalm

[selrahc]

kobe played in the hand checking era

[Bob Dole]

Zones and more complex defenses easily make up for the lack of or less hand-checking seen today.

[Prometheus]

No you're not right


:facepalm


Contact is still allowed just as much (body), you are just not allowed to put your hands on them and imo you can still do that today to some extent (many get away with it).....

I dont know why everybody just think defense immediately they hear about handchecking? Its not like you were not allowed to counter it! While handchecking makes it even tougher for you to drive you as an offensive player were allowed to use your hands aswell (something MJ managed to exploit to hell).... so its a 50-50 here.... today using your hands as an offensive player (to push of, move away opponents hands etc.) is an automatic foul....

Somebody like Lebron on the perimeter in the 90s would abuse the freedom of handchecking offensively & defensively dramatically i think.... he is already so big & strong out there and now you allow him to use his hands offensively? No matter how much the defender handchecks him, HE would win that battle countering it with his physique / own hands.

Lebron i think would actually benefit from handchecking, Durant however might not prevail equally well.


Hand-checking isn't something that makes it impossible to drive. The defender just isn't allowed to keep his hand on the offensive player. We could flip your argument and say Jordan is an overrated defender because he was allowed to hand check whereas the current era isn't.


Have you see the size of Lebron compared to Jordan... and you think a less physical era benefits him more? :facepalm


kobe played in the hand checking era


Zones and more complex defenses easily make up for the lack of or less hand-checking seen today.

Good call OP :oldlol:

[Milbuck]

Let's be honest, Kobe and Lebron would be Marshon Brooks and Khris Middleton in MJ's era.

[Prometheus]

Let's be honest, Kobe and Lebron would be Marshon Brooks and Khris Middleton in MJ's era.

If that's the case, then Giannis would be a used car salesman.

[Milbuck]

If that's the case, then Giannis would be a used car salesman.
Only if/when he got bored of Bill Russell'ing the competition. And he'd be the GOAT car salesman as well.

[Prometheus]

Only if/when he got bored of Bill Russell'ing the competition. And he'd be the GOAT car salesman as well.

:roll:

:cheers:

[Prometheus]

Dammit, I just can't troll you Milbuck.

[jlip]

We could flip your argument and say Jordan is an overrated defender because he was allowed to hand check whereas the current era isn't.

This is a point I've made many times. I have often been a defender of older eras, but we can't have our proverbial cake and eat it too. If it were tougher to score in older eras because of hand checking, then that means it was easier to defend also because of hand checking. Going by the logic of the OP and many supporters of that theory, if hand checking is the great game changer some people make it out to be, then good defenders of that era would struggle today without having that "crutch" just as great scorers of this generation would struggle back then with it being present.

[Pointguard]

Contact is still allowed just as much (body), you are just not allowed to put your hands on them and imo you can still do that today to some extent (many get away with it).....

While handchecking makes it even tougher for you to drive YOU as an offensive player were allowed to use your hands aswell to counter it (something MJ managed to exploit to hell).... so its a 50-50 here.... today using your hands as a offensive player (to push of, move away opponents hands etc.) is an automatic foul....
Handchecking would affect Durant some, and mostly slim quick players. Handchecking would actually favor a big, strong, fast, player like Lebron. Watch any film of Barkley and Malone and notice how they sometimes wait for the handcheck from younger players. They don't even notice it most of the time. The only way you can phase a big player with a hand check is if you plant your feet and get some weight behind it. But big quick guys spin off the defender, who has planted his feet and have an advantage once they complete the spin.

On Durant's behalf one could site George Gervin. There are small differences that could be big differences. Gervin was much stronger than he looked and scored a lot in the paint. Gervin had that weird delayed dribble and offset timing that Paul Pierce and Dantley had. The Iceman's long first step also kept people off balance. Durant is quicker, taller with better handle and had better range. Durant would have adjusted to handchecking in some way. But it would be a bit harder on him than Mello, Lebron and Kobe. Might make him a bit more tired at the end of the day.

[Pointguard]

Hand-checking isn't something that makes it impossible to drive. The defender just isn't allowed to keep his hand on the offensive player. We could flip your argument and say Jordan is an overrated defender because he was allowed to hand check whereas the current era isn't.
Jordan was the strongest SG so he definitely benefited from the rule.

[Dizzle-2k7]

its not just hand checking its the overall softness of the calls that refs make. we need refs who will be consistent and let players play tough, honest defense.

[Pointguard]

This is a point I've made many times. I have often been a defender of older eras, but we can't have our proverbial cake and eat it too. If it were tougher to score in older eras because of hand checking, then that means it was easier to defend also because of hand checking. Going by the logic of the OP and many supporters of that theory, if hand checking is the great game changer some people make it out to be, then good defenders of that era would struggle today without having that "crutch" just as great scorers of this generation would struggle back then with it being present.
Blocking shots was easier in the handcheck days because players were fighting to get to the rim and the slowing down meant the center could get to the shot. It's one of the reasons I think KG was one of the best defenders ever. The Celtics kept everybody out of the lane that year and this was without the handcheck rule to slow players to the basket. Had Thibes and KG teamed up in KG's prime '04 it would have been really impressive.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Most fans came away from Bron's 61 point game w/ the thought in mind that he is this amazing player that put on a “clinic” against a top 5 defense.

Lets be real:
- Bobcats' defense was trash
- they looked scared to play real defense on LeBron because they didn’t want to get called for fouls
- they don’t know how to double team / help someone that gets to the basket

I could keep going on. What will ESPN and NBA TV tell folks? LeBron's 61 is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Either way you look at it, these perimeter players today are producing these memories and moments under little if any physical resistance. I get the same feeling and thoughts when I see Kobe, Durant, and even my boy CP3. I have this thought all the time, with everyone. It sucks so bad because I really don’t think we can truly compare today’s perimeter players to past perimeter players unless they blow past perimeter players’ production clean out of the water. Last years ECF, where Paul George looked afraid to put real contact on Lebron was another reminder that there is no real defense being played today.

[Quickening]

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Most fans came away from Bron's 61 point game w/ the thought in mind that he is this amazing player that put on a

[Dizzle-2k7]

Before the current era, flopping was never used by superstars.. but now it is by guys like Lebron, Chris Paul, Blake Griffin, etc.

[NumberSix]

People don't actually know what a hand check is, huh?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Clyde Drexler (who frequently tears down his OWN peers), talked about how “you had to start the play with your back to the defender because there was so much handchecking going on.” Of course ESPN wouldn’t make their audience (ISH posters) aware of that fact.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Jordan mythologists acting like he didn't benefit from some of the most blatant ref favoritism in the history of the sport :oldlol:

[NumberSix]

Jordan mythologists acting like he didn't benefit from some of the most blatant ref favoritism in the history of the sport :oldlol:
Jordan actually only shot 1 free throw in his entire career and it was a technical. They never called fouls, even if he got hit in the face. Jordan had it tough.

Back then, you could smash a guys face in, and it wasn't even a foul. I mean, imagine an era where you could do something as drastic as breaking a guy's nose without a foul being called.

[aj1987]

Jordan mythologists acting like he didn't benefit from some of the most blatant ref favoritism in the history of the sport :oldlol:
Actually, Jordan once got shot by Laimbeer when he tried to drive for a dunk. The refs called an offensive foul on Jordan. It wash that tough to score back then.

[Prometheus]

:blah :blah :blah :blah :blah :blah :blah :blah :blah :blah

cool story.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I can not take MJ Era seriously because of lack of zone. Nostalgia on this board is ridiculous. If you hate the current era so much stop watching.

[KirbyPls]

I'm just thankful MJ didn't end his career paralyzed or with Parkinson's like Ali. MJ never got the benefit of the whistle.

[Milbuck]

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Most fans came away from Bron's 61 point game w/ the thought in mind that he is this amazing player that put on a

[Rocketswin2013]

Yeah it's incredible. Patrick beverley is the only player in the NBA who truly handchecks and he's looked at as a "psycho-thug".

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Jordan actually only shot 1 free throw in his entire career and it was a technical. They never called fouls, even if he got hit in the face. Jordan had it tough.

Back then, you could smash a guys face in, and it wasn't even a foul. I mean, imagine an era where you could do something as drastic as breaking a guy's nose without a foul being called.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Yeah it's incredible. Patrick beverley is the only player in the NBA who truly handchecks and he's looked at as a "psycho-thug".
thats because he actively tries to injure players every game.
if handchecking was allowed a fraud like harden wouldnt even crack 10ppg so u might just shut up:coleman:

[madmax]

nobody was allowed to touch "His Airness" either my dear fellow...if you don't know that, you probably didn't watch him play live either. I did:cheers:

[KirbyPls]

nobody was allowed to touch "His Airness" either my dear fellow...if you don't know that, you probably didn't watch him play live either. I did:cheers:

Shhhh, they can't handle the truth.

[aj1987]

http://i.imgur.com/Mvnp3gf.png

[tpols]

Most fans came away from Bron's 61 point game w/ the thought in mind that he is this amazing player that put on a “clinic” against a top 5 defense.

Lets be real:
- Bobcats' defense was trash
- they looked scared to play real defense on LeBron because they didn’t want to get called for fouls
- they don’t know how to double team / help someone that gets to the basket

I could keep going on. What will ESPN and NBA TV tell folks? LeBron's 61 is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Either way you look at it, these perimeter players today are producing these memories and moments under little if any physical resistance. I get the same feeling and thoughts when I see Kobe, Durant, and even my boy CP3. I have this thought all the time, with everyone. It sucks so bad because I really don’t think we can truly compare today’s perimeter players to past perimeter players unless they blow past perimeter players’ production clean out of the water. Last years ECF, where Paul George looked afraid to put real contact on Lebron was another reminder that there is no real defense being played today.

This is pretty much the definition of someone whose blinded by nostalgia lol

Like the Pacers Heat series wasnt physical.. a 290lb Hibbert was allowed to bodycheck everyone at the rim w/o getting called for anything. That series was very physical..

And what is Paul George handchecking going to do to Lebron? Hes got like 30+ lbs on him and has four main weapons for scoring, shooting threes, sealing somebody off on the block, fastbreak, or slashing with a running start. Handchecking would do nothing to stop him as you cant hold.. you can only push, and Lebron generates enough force to where he can completely override any small contact.

Joke. MJ got more superstar calls and favorable treatment than Lebron did.. lets be real:oldlol:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Funny thing is the Free throw rate was higher in the 90s than it is now.

[Quickening]

MJ had 3 consecutive seasons in the 80s where he had more free throw attempts per game than Durant this year... :lol :roll:

[NumberSix]

This is pretty much the definition of someone whose blinded by nostalgia lol

Like the Pacers Heat series wasnt physical.. a 290lb Hibbert was allowed to bodycheck everyone at the rim w/o getting called for anything. That series was very physical..

And what is Paul George handchecking going to do to Lebron? Hes got like 30+ lbs on him and has four main weapons for scoring, shooting threes, sealing somebody off on the block, fastbreak, or slashing with a running start. Handchecking would do nothing to stop him as you cant hold.. you can only push, and Lebron generates enough force to where he can completely override any small contact.

Joke. MJ got more superstar calls and favorable treatment than Lebron did.. lets be real:oldlol:
Do people seriously not remember the current Durant jokes being made about Jordan? Shit like "you can't breathe on him" or "if you stand too close to him, it's a foul". I mean, these kind of things were pretty commonly said about Jordan.

[tpols]

MJ had 3 consecutive seasons in the 80s where he had more free throw attempts per game than Durant this year... :lol :roll:

people will never concede their own era.. players could be playing in high tech space suits with turbo boosts and jetpacks on 20 ft rims and older fans would be ranting about how much better it was back in their day

[Rocketswin2013]

Jordan actually only shot 1 free throw in his entire career and it was a technical. They never called fouls, even if he got hit in the face. Jordan had it tough.

Back then, you could smash a guys face in, and it wasn't even a foul. I mean, imagine an era where you could do something as drastic as breaking a guy's nose without a foul being called.
Ron Artest broke 2 of Wizards MJ' s ribs and he said he "loved the passion". Hell Beverley just broke his nose yesterday and he'll wear a mask Friday. It's sports, there are injuries. Deal with it.

[Rocketswin2013]

Do people seriously not remember the current Durant jokes being made about Jordan? Shit like "you can't breathe on him" or "if you stand too close to him, it's a foul". I mean, these kind of things were pretty commonly said about Jordan.
LeBron went months without fouling last year. It works both ways.

[NumberSix]

Ron Artest broke 2 of Wizards MJ' s ribs and he said he "loved the passion". Hell Beverley just broke his nose yesterday and he'll wear a mask Friday. It's sports, there are injuries. Deal with it.
I don't know what point you're making.

[Rocketswin2013]

thats because he actively tries to injure players every game.
if handchecking was allowed a fraud like harden wouldnt even crack 10ppg so u might just shut up:coleman:
Nah, Harden is the best I've seen at ripping through a reaching defenders arm. His PPG would skyrocket.

[madmax]

MJ had 3 consecutive seasons in the 80s where he had more free throw attempts per game than Durant this year... :lol :roll:

:oldlol:
but still, the man had it so tough from those crooked refs...it's pretty hilarious when you think about it, since Jordan even ended his second three peat career with an uncalled offensive push-off and a title winning basket thanks to it lol

[aj1987]

LeBron went months without fouling last year. It works both ways.
Whose alt are you, bro? Pretending to be a Rockets fan. All I've seen you do is hate on the Heat and LeBron.

BTW, LeBron went 6 games without fouling in a span of 10-12 days. Not "months". :facepalm

[Rocketswin2013]

Whose alt are you, bro? Pretending to be a Rockets fan. All I've seen you do is hate on the Heat and LeBron.

BTW, LeBron went 6 games without fouling in a span of 10-12 days. Not "months". :facepalm

Nah. I'm a diehard rockets fan. Trolling LeBron fans is fun though.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Joe Johnson was asked about the handchecking rule during the summer of 2011: “It benefits me,” said Joe Johnson, one of three players (Mike Bibby and Jamal Crawford are the others) on the Hawks’ roster who have averaged 20 or more points in a season. “It definitely changes the game because it gives every guy that extra step. “If we could hand check now, the game would be totally different,” Johnson said. “If they couldn’t hand check back in the day, there are some guys that would have been even better than they were. It would have been nuts for some of the big-time scorers and perimeter players from the 1980s and 1990s. Can you imagine what [Michael] Jordan would have done in a league where you couldn’t hand check.”

Yeah, JJ was just being nostalgic. What does an NBA player TODAY know? :confusedshrug:

[swagga]

imagine durant in the 80s while keeping his ref protection, he'd average 30ppg just from FTs.

Really, we wouldn't be having jerry west as the logo but a statue of durant shooting a free throw.

[ImKobe]

Kobe averaged 30 7 6 with 2.2 spg for a season in the handcheck era, his stats didn't really improve that much apart from the 2005-06 season. I mean, the rule changes definitely helped perimeter players as the rule changes were made primarily to boost the scoring average, Kobe, Lebron & AI had huge boosts in ppg in 06, though the rules were changed in the 2004-05 season.

But I think in today's league, teams have adapted to the rule changes & it's hardly a factor now.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Tex Winter said: “Players today can get to the basket individually much easier.”


Asked if he could defend Jordan under today’s interpretation of the rules, Joe Dumars first laughed, “It would have been virtually impossible to defend Michael Jordan based on the way the game’s being called right now.”


Ron Artest claimed that if he defended Jordan in his prime, that Michael Jordan “would drop 50 on me”.

Ron Artest on Jordan in 2001 comeback – “If I didn’t break his ribs, he was going average 30 and win the scoring title”
Bruce Bowen said the toughest player he ever had to defend was Michael Jordan.


Tim Grover, who has trained Kobe, Lebron, and Jordan, was asked who would win a 1-on-1 battle of Jordan vs. either of the other two:

Tim Grover: “Oh, Michael. No question. From a physical and mental standpoint, he’s the best I’ve ever seen. If he were playing now, with the way the refs call everything, and with all the padding these guys wear, he’d average 40 or 50 a night if he wanted.”

Yeah. Coaches, GMs, and trainers, TODAY, are just being "nostalgic". My God, I love owning you idiots.

[NumberSix]

Yeah, JJ was just being nostalgic. What does an NBA player TODAY know? :confusedshrug:
Yeah, you if removed hand-checking in a league where zone defense was already illegal, yeah, some players would be even better. Duh. :hammerhead:

If you make zones illegal right now, guys like Durant will average 40PPG.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Yeah, JJ was just being nostalgic. What does an NBA player TODAY know? :confusedshrug:

Yes but you can play zone now where as you couldn't before. it evens out

[Quickening]

Yeah. Coaches, GMs, and trainers, TODAY, are just being "nostalgic". My God, I love owning you idiots.

Average 50 a night? :lol :roll: :roll:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yes but you can play zone now where as you couldn't before. it evens out

Zone is trash. Not even a full-functioning zone with the 3 second rule.

Not to mention, it's barely run sans the college game.

[tpols]

Yeah. Coaches, GMs, and trainers, TODAY, are just being "nostalgic". My God, I love owning you idiots.

Jordan was unstoppable in his day too, and could have gotten 50 any game he wanted to.. he didnt because it is basically impossible to average 50 ppg and win anything because there are heavy diminishing returns on your teammates if you use up that many possesions.

gdamn you're being a dumbass.. it was phil who taught Jordan the importance of building team chemistry and balance to win, and you think Jordan is going to toss up a ton of shots every single game to average 50..

[swagga]

Yeah, JJ was just being nostalgic. What does an NBA player TODAY know? :confusedshrug:

they apparently don't understand that zone D's such as mavs 2011 can be much more effective in stopping superstar perimeter scorers than physical man 2 man D.

you can also add the pistons vs kobe in 2004.

really the league had several defensive revolutions since jordan played.

1. introduction of zone, 3s lane calls (O and D)
2. thibodeau's ice/no middle and other small defensive schemas against pnrs/pnps
3. hybrid rushing zones for smallball (what miami is playing when engaged)

no wonder players are more team-oriented today than in 1998 for example.

Probably a coach is better at explaining this but it is obvious that basketball plays very different now than 15 years ago.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Clyde Drexler: For guys who penetrate these days, it’s hunting season. Yes, now you can play (floating)zone(legally), but teams rarely do.”

ISH nerds >>>> basketball legends, amirite?

[Quickening]

Clyde Drexler: For guys who penetrate these days, it’s hunting season. Yes, now you can play (floating)zone(legally), but teams rarely do.”

ISH nerds >>>> Basketball legends, amirite?

Some senile old guys trying to stay relevant, trying to kid themseleves basketball was far superior in the old days :lol :roll: :roll:

[Marlo_Stanfield]

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Clyde Drexler: For guys who penetrate these days, it

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Jordan was unstoppable in his day too, and could have gotten 50 any game he wanted to.. he didnt because it is basically impossible to average 50 ppg and win anything because there are heavy diminishing returns on your teammates if you use up that many possesions.

gdamn you're being a dumbass.. it was phil who taught Jordan the importance of building team chemistry and balance to win, and you think Jordan is going to toss up a ton of shots every single game to average 50..

Actually, it was Dean Smith. Jordan just didn't have a TEAM around him prior to Phil becoming the head-coach.

Wouldnt expect you to know that, I mean, you were still swimming in your daddy's sack....

[tragicbronson]

Clyde Drexler: For guys who penetrate these days, it’s hunting season. Yes, now you can play (floating)zone(legally), but teams rarely do.”

ISH nerds >>>> basketball legends, amirite?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mRyqA91H1M

Are you?

[aj1987]

There are 21 players scoring over 20 PPG this season. Did some quick research on the number of players who scored that much between '91 and '96.
'91 - 26
'92 - 24
'93 - 21
'94 - 18
'95 - 24
'96 - 21

I guess Michael Adams, Tony Campbell, Ricky Pierce, Latrell Spreewell, Cedric Ceballos, Juwan freaking Howard, etc. can all score in the '90's, but somehow todays players can't. Why?

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Oscar Robertson said Lebron's better than Jordan. God, I love owning these idiots.

Herp derp :cletus:

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Oscar Robertson said Lebron's better than Jordan. God, I love owning these idiots.

Herp derp :cletus:
even phil jackson said it.
but who is phil jackson doe?
and what the hell does he know about jordan:roll: :roll: :roll:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Stu Jackson: No. The scoring increase was not our goal. Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots — having more time to shoot — they tend to make more of them.

Stu Jackson: It doesn’t. With the rule and interpretation changes, it has become more difficult for defenders to defend penetration, cover the entire floor on defensive rotations and recover to shooters. This has provided more time for shooters to ready themselves for quality shots. With more dribble penetration, ball handlers are getting more opportunities at the rim. Additionally, teams now realize the 3-point shot is a great competitive equalizer, so they are taking more; they have improved their skill level on threes and are making them at a higher rate.

Yeah, the VP of basketball was just being "nostalgic".

Class' in session, boys. :oldlol:

[Quickening]

League Average eFG%

'80s: .491
'90s: .488
'00s: .484

League Average PPG

'80s: 109.3
'90s: 101.0
'00s: 96.9

% of Points from the Freethrow line

'80s: 20.3
'90s: 19.8
'00s: 19.5

/thread

[aj1987]

League Average eFG%

'80s: .491
'90s: .488
'00s: .484

League Average PPG

'80s: 109.3
'90s: 101.0
'00s: 96.9

% of Points from the Freethrow line

'80s: 20.3
'90s: 19.8
'00s: 19.5

/thread
Wrong. You need quotes from trainers and coaches without sources to prove your point.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Clyde Drexler: For guys who penetrate these days, it

[tpols]

League Average eFG%

'80s: .491
'90s: .488
'00s: .484

League Average PPG

'80s: 109.3
'90s: 101.0
'00s: 96.9

% of Points from the Freethrow line

'80s: 20.3
'90s: 19.8
'00s: 19.5

/thread

But Bill Lambier doe

[DonDadda59]

nobody was allowed to touch "His Airness" either my dear fellow...if you don't know that, you probably didn't watch him play live either. I did:cheers:

Jordan Rules (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhjsJs)

Team that adopted the Jordan Rules (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wLW2UwkcG4)

Lebron in the 2010s (Post Decision): 7.8 FTA on 18.3 FGA/GM
Durant in the 2010s: 8.8 FTA on 19.3 FGA/GM
Jordan '90-first retirement: 7.9 FTA on 23.7 FGA/GM

Jordan was taking over 5 more shots per game than Lebron but getting the same amount of free throws. He took over 4 more than Durant but was getting 1 less FTA on average. All this during a more physical era. So if Jordan was 'untouchable' what does that make those guys? :confusedshrug:

And for all the talk about bigger, stronger players... how is it that a guy who couldn't do a single rep of 185 on the bench press working on his fourth scorin title? :lol

[Dro]

Agree 100% with the OP...

[NumberSix]

Lol. Get outta here with that "Jordan COULD have averaged 50 if he wanted to". It wasn't for lack of trying. Dude wasn't opposed to chucking at all.


Jordan's highest scoring season, he averaged 37 points on 28 FGA and 12 FTA. His eFG% was only 48.4% and his TS% was only 56.2%.

Is that really any better than when Kobe averaged 35PPG on 27 FGA and 10 FTA? 49.1-eFG and 55.9-TS


Jordan mythologists LOVE to claim Kobe is nowhere near JOrdan, but it's a lot closer than you would like to admit.

[DonDadda59]

League Average eFG%

'80s: .491
'90s: .488
'00s: .484


You do realize that from the 80s to the 00s, that's a grand total difference of 0.7%? That's what is known as 'negligible'. This despite the fact that 3s were not featured in offenses much during the 80s and much of the 90s. In fact:

League Average (3s attempted/gm)
1988: 5
1998: 12.7
2008: 18.1

So players are taking FAR more low % 3s now, but only shooting 0.4-0.7% less overall... and that means defense has gotten better? :biggums:




League Average PPG

'80s: 109.3
'90s: 101.0
'00s: 96.9

Pace bro.


% of Points from the Freethrow line

'80s: 20.3
'90s: 19.8
'00s: 19.5

/thread

So again, a grand total difference of about 0.8

Any idea what the %s are for perimeter players as opposed to big men (even though a 'big man' like Kevin Love is as likely to shoot 3s as a PG :lol )

[Quickening]

You do realize that from the 80s to the 00s, that's a grand total difference of 0.7%? That's what is known as 'negligible'. This despite the fact that 3s were not featured in offenses much during the 80s and much of the 90s. In fact:

League Average (3s attempted/gm)
1988: 5
1998: 12.7
2008: 18.1

So players are taking FAR more low % 3s now, but only shooting 0.4-0.7% less overall... and that means defense has gotten better? :biggums:





Pace bro.



So again, a grand total difference of about 0.8

Any idea what the %s are for perimeter players as opposed to big men (even though a 'big man' like Kevin Love is as likely to shoot 3s as a PG :lol )

Terrible rebuttal, not worth my time, /thread :pimp:

[NumberSix]

You do realize that from the 80s to the 00s, that's a grand total difference of 0.7%? That's what is known as 'negligible'. This despite the fact that 3s were not featured in offenses much during the 80s and much of the 90s. In fact:

League Average (3s attempted/gm)
1988: 5
1998: 12.7
2008: 18.1

So players are taking FAR more low % 3s now, but only shooting 0.4-0.7% less overall... and that means defense has gotten better? :biggums:





Pace bro.



So again, a grand total difference of about 0.8

Any idea what the %s are for perimeter players as opposed to big men (even though a 'big man' like Kevin Love is as likely to shoot 3s as a PG :lol )
Slower pace + roughly same efficiency = takes longer to get a good shot.

Why would it take longer for an offense to get off a good shot? WORSE defense apparently.:rolleyes:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

You do realize that from the 80s to the 00s, that's a grand total difference of 0.7%? That's what is known as 'negligible'. This despite the fact that 3s were not featured in offenses much during the 80s and much of the 90s. In fact:

League Average (3s attempted/gm)
1988: 5
1998: 12.7
2008: 18.1

So players are taking FAR more low % 3s now, but only shooting 0.4-0.7% less overall... and that means defense has gotten better? :biggums:

He posted efg% which takes 3 pointers into account.




Pace bro.
Drtg is lower (better) now than in the 90s as well

[DonDadda59]

Have you see the size of Lebron compared to Jordan...

About the same difference between Lebron and Kobe. See what happened when Kobe handchecked LeBron in a full court press:

http://youtu.be/6XxsN8jITds?t=39s

LeBron has never shown the ability to perform when the game gets even a little physical. Bruce Bowen put it on him in '07. Hell, can't seem to do much when you lay off him and dare him to shoot mid range jumpers. :lol

A guy with no/poor mid range game isn't too hard to game plan for and frustrate as Pop has shown on multiple occasions. Having the ability to slow him down physically (as shown by a broken down Bean) also helps tremendously.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

About the same difference between Lebron and Kobe. See what happened when Kobe handchecked LeBron in a full court press:

http://youtu.be/6XxsN8jITds?t=39s

LeBron has never shown the ability to perform when the game gets even a little physical. Bruce Bowen put it on him in '07. Hell, can't seem to do much when you lay off him and dare him to shoot mid range jumpers. :lol

A guy with no/poor mid range game isn't too hard to game plan for and frustrate as Pop has shown on multiple occasions. Having the ability to slow him down physically (as shown by a broken down Bean) also helps tremendously.

Handchecked? Don't you mean Kobe locked his arm :lol

[Quickening]

About the same difference between Lebron and Kobe. See what happened when Kobe handchecked LeBron in a full court press:

http://youtu.be/6XxsN8jITds?t=39s

LeBron has never shown the ability to perform when the game gets even a little physical. Bruce Bowen put it on him in '07. Hell, can't seem to do much when you lay off him and dare him to shoot mid range jumpers. :lol

A guy with no/poor mid range game isn't too hard to game plan for and frustrate as Pop has shown on multiple occasions. Having the ability to slow him down physically (as shown by a broken down Bean) also helps tremendously.

You were allowed to grab hold of a players shooting arm in th 80s? :lol :roll: You guys are reaching :pimp:

[DonDadda59]

He posted efg% which takes 3 pointers into account.

And the difference between 3 decades was a whopping 0.7% :eek:


Drtg is lower (better) now than in the 90s as well

And the 60s featured defensive ratings in the 80s. All of the defenses labeled 'GOAT' from this era would be average-slightly above average in the 80s if we're using DRTG.

Are you ready to admit that the 60s-70s was BY FAR the greatest defensive era ever? DRTG says yes.

GOAT defense- 1963-64 Boston Celtics 83.8 DRTG :bowdown:


Handchecked? Don't you mean Kobe locked his arm

No, I mean Bean had his forearm on Bron's hip which slowed him down immensely and allowed Bean to control his movements. Bron having mediocre handling skills couldn't overcome this and could do nothing but feebly throw up an off balance shot which the broken down Bean spiked into the stands.

[NumberSix]

You were allowed to grab hold of a players shooting arm in th 80s? :lol :roll: You guys are reaching :pimp:
Only with knives.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

And the difference between 3 decades was a whopping 0.7% :eek:


The point isn't that defenses are way better now the point is that they aren't way worse.


And the 60s featured defensive ratings in the 80s. All of the defenses labeled 'GOAT' from this era would be average-slightly above average in the 80s if we're using DRTG.

Are you ready to admit that the 60s-70s was BY FAR the greatest defensive era ever? DRTG says yes.

GOAT defense- 1963-64 Boston Celtics 83.8 DRTG :bowdown:

You seriously have to be a moron to compare pre-3 point line basketball to 3-point line basketball. Of course it's MUCH harder to score without the 3 point line stretching out defences.

[NumberSix]

And the difference between 3 decades was a whopping 0.7% :eek:



And the 60s featured defensive ratings in the 80s. All of the defenses labeled 'GOAT' from this era would be average-slightly above average in the 80s if we're using DRTG.

Are you ready to admit that the 60s-70s was BY FAR the greatest defensive era ever? DRTG says yes.

GOAT defense- 1963-64 Boston Celtics 83.8 DRTG :bowdown:



No, I mean Bean had his forearm on Bron's hip which slowed him down immensely and allowed Bean to control his movements. Bron having mediocre handling skills couldn't overcome this and go do nothing but feebly throw up an off balance shot which the broken down Bean spiked into the stands.
Is this your first time?

[DonDadda59]

Terrible rebuttal, not worth my time, /thread :pimp:

Sit your dumb ass down. You have no 'rebuttal'. Have a nice day doe :cheers:

[HoopsFanNumero1]

No, I mean Bean had his forearm on Bron's hip which slowed him down immensely and allowed Bean to control his movements. Bron having mediocre handling skills couldn't overcome this and go do nothing but feebly throw up an off balance shot which the broken down Bean spiked into the stands.

Look at 0:54 onwards of that video. Kobe's clearly holding down his arm.

[NumberSix]

Are you ready to admit that the 60s-70s was BY FAR the greatest defensive era ever? DRTG says yes.

GOAT defense- 1963-64 Boston Celtics 83.8 DRTG :bowdown:
I'm still blown away that you just said this. Like, I've seen stupid comments on here, but wow.

[atljonesbro]

Jordan stans have to be the most insecure people I've ever seen :lol . The only thing they have to grasp to is "hand checking" and "physical defense". Those aren't even good arguments lmao. Taking pride in not being able to play proper defense :roll:

[PsychoBe]

playoff basketball is when players is allowed a lot more freedom from the refs. even in the 90's regular season games were officiated pretty iffy and ticky-tacky, but in the post season the refs usually allowed hard-nosed "no-boys-allowed" basketball, as they somewhat do even till this day.

[tmacattack33]

The current hand-checking rule makes it more fair and easy to ref.

You were allowed to hand-check back in the day, but obviously you weren't allowed to actually affect the movement of the player.

Trying to judge whether or not the defender is "affecting the movement of the offensive player" is obviously a lot harder than trying to judge or not whether he simply touched the offensive player.

[sportjames23]

Jordan stans have to be the most insecure people I've ever seen :lol . The only thing they have to grasp to is "hand checking" and "physical defense". Those aren't even good arguments lmao. Taking pride in not being able to play proper defense :roll:


Nikka please. You mention Lebron in a thread and his stans swarm that thread with a quickness. It's like they got some kinda Lebron Signal that shines in the sky like it's Gotham City.

Jordan fans ain't worried about Bran. Dude been in the league over 10 years and ain't come close to MJ yet. And he ain't gonna get any better than he is now.

[Calabis]

Hand-checking isn't something that makes it impossible to drive. The defender just isn't allowed to keep his hand on the offensive player. We could flip your argument and say Jordan is an overrated defender because he was allowed to hand check whereas the current era isn't.

Because Jordan's defense would suffer some if he couldn't handcheck, just like some of todays guys would improve.....I laugh at people who act like its no big deal....if you had a guy strong enough, u could easily turn a drive lay-up into a 10-12 foot jump shot, by pushing him off his route.

When they changed the rule, this is what occurred initially

after Rule changes 2004-2005 season as of Dec 22,2005...in the paint scoring leaders

1. Tony Parker, Spurs 328
2. Tim Duncan, Spurs 322
3. Dwyane Wade, Heat 316
4. LeBron James, Cavs 304
5. Allen Iverson, Sixers 298

Source: Elias Sports Bureau

players comments about Alvin Robertson who came into the league in 1984:

Brian Shaw: When I was a rookie and hand-checking was part of the game, I was 180 pounds. He was strong enough to hold me by my waist. I could be dribbling the ball and trying to make progress to the basket, and he could just control me with one hand. That's the kind of strength he had. You have to hope that one of your big guys comes over and sets a screen on him so you can get away from him.

Ron Harper: Alvin and I are both from Ohio. I used to play with him in the summertime. He's a defensive player that slaps, grabs, and holds. He's intense all the time. He was a great defensive player. Not a good defensive player, but a great defensive player. He was a great athlete. You have to use your teammates to run screens. That was the only way to beat him.

Or these comments after 2004 rule changes

One former Rocket can appreciate the hand-checking ban more than anyone.
"I call it the Derek Harper-on-Kenny Smith Rule," said Kenny Smith, referring to the physical abuse he took from the New York Knicks in the 1994 Finals. "Now we're back to me against you."

[DMAVS41]

It matters for perimeter players...

It got really beat from like 05 through 07...and then it's come back to reality and they let the players touch each other a bit more now

It's still pretty much a joke in terms of perimeter defense, but not nearly as bad as it was a while ago.

As with all players and eras...just compare what the guys are doing to each other in this era.

It's why kobe's 06 regular season is extremely over-rated by many people here. lebron and iverson were able to go nuts from a scoring perspective as well.

you judge it by how good guys were in relation to their peers...there are just too many variables to start comparing across eras with rules changes and just how the game was played and coached...etc.

Which is why PER is actually one of the best metrics for comparing across eras if two guys play a similar amount of minutes....because it's in relation to the current league and normalizes for those averages each year

[Calabis]

NBA.com: Since the hand-checking rule was interpreted differently beginning in the 2004-05 season, the game has opened up. Players are penetrating and the floor is spread. As a result, scoring has risen every season. Was this anticipated back in 2004?

Stu Jackson: No. The scoring increase was not our goal. Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots -- having more time to shoot -- they tend to make more of them.

Why would they be asking Stu Jackson this, if handchecking was abolished in 1980??

Doug Collins: "Without those rule changes, I'm sure we're not at this point," said the former player and coach-turned broadcaster.[B] "Just the no hand-checking rule alone brought so much speed and penetration and cutting back into the game. Before, if a guy tried to go through the lane, it was

[Calabis]

Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers, 2004
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Bryant's PER 14.2
"With his feud against Shaq escalating and the series getting away from the Lakers, Bryant began taking whatever shot struck him. Mostly, they struck the rim -- he shot 38.1 percent and had nearly as many turnovers (18) as assists (22) as Detroit romped in five games."

During the series, Mav's owner Mark Cuban made some interesting observations about the defensive play of the Pistons (handchecking as Jordan era players new it was dead, but minimal/temporary contact was still sometimes allowed) and the 'advantage' they had over offensive perimeter players and decided a change was necesary to tip the scales in the other direction...

From his Blog Maverick weblog, Mark Cuban's article 'If It

[Milbuck]

Jordan stans have to be the most insecure people I've ever seen :lol . The only thing they have to grasp to is "hand checking" and "physical defense". Those aren't even good arguments lmao. Taking pride in not being able to play proper defense :roll:
Really? You see Lebron and Kobe stans flood this place on a day to day basis with blatant agenda threads/posts and you think Jordan fans are the most insecure?

[Calabis]

I posted these articles that involve current player, coaches, GMs, authorities in charge of league, former players.....this doesn't mean that every player back then was some great defender because of handchecking, nor does it mean players like Kobe or Lebron would suck back then...they would simply adjust

and for the Kobestans...from their GAWD himself

"It's more of a finesse game," Bryant said before the Lakers played the Chicago Bulls on Monday. "It's more small ball, which, personally, I don't really care much for. I like kind of smash-mouth, old-school basketball because that's what I grew up watching. I also think it's much, much less physical. Some of the flagrant fouls that I see called nowadays, it makes me nauseous. You can't touch a guy without it being a flagrant foul."

Bryant said that the hand-check rule that was introduced nearly a decade ago during the 2004-05 season has made it easier for less-talented players to succeed. Bryant said Lakers coach Mike D'Antoni is at least partially responsible for the shift in style of play across the league.

"I like the contact," Bryant said. "As a defensive player, if you enjoy playing defense, that's what you want. You want to be able to put your hands on a guy. You want to be able to hand check a little bit. The truth is, it makes the game [where] players have to be more skillful. Nowadays, literally anybody can get out there and get to the basket and you can't touch anybody. Back then, if guys put their hands on you, you had to have the skill to be able to go both ways, change direction, post up, you had to have a mid-range game because you didn't want to go all the way to the basket because you would get knocked ass over tea kettle. So I think playing the game back then required much more skill."

[Calabis]

Jordan stans have to be the most insecure people I've ever seen :lol . The only thing they have to grasp to is "hand checking" and "physical defense". Those aren't even good arguments lmao. Taking pride in not being able to play proper defense :roll:

I just posted valid facts, but you will probably ignore them, because its written right there.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Nikka please. You mention Lebron in a thread and his stans swarm that thread with a quickness. It's like they got some kinda Lebron Signal that shines in the sky like it's Gotham City.

Jordan fans ain't worried about Bran. Dude been in the league over 10 years and ain't come close to MJ yet. And he ain't gonna get any better than he is now.
had his career high only 3 days ago lmfao:roll: :roll: :roll:

[poido123]

Jordan Rules (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhjsJs)

Team that adopted the Jordan Rules (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wLW2UwkcG4)

Lebron in the 2010s (Post Decision): 7.8 FTA on 18.3 FGA/GM
Durant in the 2010s: 8.8 FTA on 19.3 FGA/GM
Jordan '90-first retirement: 7.9 FTA on 23.7 FGA/GM

Jordan was taking over 5 more shots per game than Lebron but getting the same amount of free throws. He took over 4 more than Durant but was getting 1 less FTA on average. All this during a more physical era. So if Jordan was 'untouchable' what does that make those guys? :confusedshrug:

And for all the talk about bigger, stronger players... how is it that a guy who couldn't do a single rep of 185 on the bench press working on his fourth scorin title? :lol


Damn :applause:

Don't do 'em like that Don Dadda, winner of basketball debates.

I miss this guy...

[Dbrog]

I just posted valid facts, but you will probably ignore them, because its written right there.

The only facts you posted were the PIP leaders after the rule change and Kobe's PER. The rest were opinions of people. Just sayin.

[poido123]

Handchecked? Don't you mean Kobe locked his arm :lol


At no point in that clip was Lebron's arm locked :lol

Don't be such a homer.

[kobebeangoat]

04 pistons :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Calabis]

The only facts you posted were the PIP leaders after the rule change and Kobe's PER. The rest were opinions of people. Just sayin.

Yeah just people...smh. people like Kobe who has played in both eras but what the **** would he know. Jason Kidd who played in both eras again he doesnt know....Stu Jackson who along with Rod Thorn engineered the change in rules and clearly states why they did it and what it helps create...Coaches who have coached in three different eras and a current player...along with PIP data showing wing players increase and leading the league in that stat....but hey ur right.

Since u know more than these guys explain this one for me:

I wonder why they needed the rule change then...it was such a ineffective tool, why would the league need to abolish it for todays super duper athletes?

[NumberSix]

At no point in that clip was Lebron's arm locked :lol

Don't be such a homer.
Insightful as always pedo.

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/Kobe-Lebron_zpsc8257fed.png

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/Kobe-Lebron-2_zps69c82264.png

[PsychoBe]

Insightful as always pedo.

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/Kobe-Lebron_zpsc8257fed.png

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/Kobe-Lebron-2_zps69c82264.png

his arm wasn't locked. he had his arm against bran's guard arm since bran was attempting to use it to flail at kobe (offensive foul btw) so kobe played him tight and didn't let him breathe so that bran couldn't push off and when he elevated (not the best move) he had no wriggle room and kobe sized him up and blocked the shot.

it's called playing defense.