Where Does Manu Rank All Time Among SGs?

[aboss4real24]

Career Avgs Are 14,4,4,1 FG% 45.0 50% ON 2P

Best Career Year was 2007-2008

Where he avgd 19 ppg, 4 REB,4 Assist, 1 Stl, FG% 46.5

His #s Dont Tell the whole Story

I Feel like wen u watch him hes has as much affect on the game as Kobe/Wade has on the game, But Not saying he's as good as them

I Think Hes as good a pure scorer as wade

and Jus as Clutch as Kobe

Just as gud Of a Defender as both (In Prime)

and a better Playmaker Then Both

athletically is very comparable to both, (Less Explosive Tho)

Injuries have really plagued the later part of his career

But Where Do You Rank Manu all Time

Top 10?

Top 15?

Top 20?

Not ranked at All ?


http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1593961/manuslam_medium.gif

[RagaZ]

The last man to beat the Yanks in a Olympic tournament :bowdown:

[NumberSix]

Top 50 SG

[MavsSuperFan]

Top 15 because of rings.

Accomplishments matter.

[scm5]

Top 15 because of rings.

Accomplishments matter.

In terms of talent I think he's Top 15.

Overall, I think he has a case for Top 10.

[Mass Debator]

Outside top 10. Definitely top 10 in skill though.

[moe94]

Peak? Outside top 10.

Career? Easily top 10.

[r0drig0lac]

top 10-15. If he had left to play for national team (despite being the most important player of the greatest achievement of a country outside the United States or adjoining the USSR in the history of basketball) and played more minutes in the NBA this question would not even be taking place, 15 / 4/4 in just 27 minutes is absolutely incredible.

[Bob Dole]

Not better than:

jordan
west
kobe
wade
allen
richmond
carter
miller
gervin
drexler
Tmac
Moncrief
pistol pete
joe dumars
david thompson

And Im probably forgetting some more or and Harden is going to pass him as well. Not top 15, top 20 at best.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Very good player, don't get me wrong. But he's entirely overrated on ISH by young fans who exclusively came up in this era. What makes Manu so great from an all-time NBA perspective? He's a career 6th man.

[Mass Debator]

Not better than:

jordan
west
kobe
wade
allen
richmond
carter
miller
gervin
drexler
Tmac
Moncrief
pistol pete
joe dumars
david thompson

And Im probably forgetting some more or and Harden is going to pass him as well. Not top 15, top 20 at best.
Forgetting Earl Monroe and maybe Bill Sharman.

[moe94]

Very good player, don't get me wrong. But he's entirely overrated on ISH by young fans who exclusively came up in this era. What makes Manu so great from an all-time NBA perspective? He's a career 6th man.

He's a fake 6th man and you know that.

[MavsSuperFan]

Not better than:

jordan
west
kobe
wade
allen
richmond
carter
miller
gervin
drexler
Tmac
Moncrief
pistol pete
joe dumars
david thompson

And Im probably forgetting some more or and Harden is going to pass him as well. Not top 15, top 20 at best.

his all time ranks are better than lot of those guys because of his rings and situational greatness/clutchness. All time ranks is not solely based on talent and peak

[Genaro]

TOP 15 but OP is clearly overreating him if he thinks he's on pair with Kobe and Wade on those categories he talked about.

[Bob Dole]

his all time ranks are better than lot of those guys because of his rings and situational greatness/clutchness. All time ranks is not solely based on talent and peak

If that's how you like to do your rank sure. Situational stuff is that espn topics & great strory time crap that has kobe in the top 10 and had D-Rose steal an MVP. How good were you at basketball? Impact, and how long was that impact.

Those guys are all better.

[aboss4real24]

Very good player, don't get me wrong. But he's entirely overrated on ISH by young fans who exclusively came up in this era. What makes Manu so great from an all-time NBA perspective? He's a career 6th man.

He might be overrated wen u look at his stats

His stats dont measure up with The other greats at sg obv

but wen u watch him and u look at his pure talent and skill
Hes a all time great SG

And Manu arguably the best 6th man ever

[Kblaze8855]

Not really ranked. Which doesnt mean he cant compare with some of the non elite 2s...it just means...who makes a top 30 SG list?


jordan
west
kobe
wade
allen
richmond
carter
miller
gervin
drexler
Tmac
Moncrief
pistol pete
joe dumars
david thompson

And of course:

Earl Monroe
Sam Jones
Iverson
Sharman
Hal Greer

Hell Paul Westphal was a 5-6 time all star, 3 time all nba first team and led a finals team. Gail Goodrich even. The greyhound is like a 7 time all star. Gus williams was all nba over Magic Johnson. Went to town on the Lakers to knock Kareem out a couple times on the way to the finals. Won it all. Sweet Lou Hudson? Pistol Pete was HIS sidekick.

Lot of guys.

You have guys like Steve Smith, Dale Ellis, and Rolando Blackman who...if replaced with Manu....their teams dont do much different.

I suppose its possible Manu takes the 99 Knicks to the finals like Sprewell. He wasnt doing anything heroic. Do I think hes all NBA first team in 94 in place of Sprewell? That...I cant say for sure.

He could put up like 22/5/5 on the Suns like Hornacek did. Maybe be an al lstar in Philly and a great #3 on the Jazz. He might even do better. But I dont know if hes gonna do so much more that in his place he comes out getting into all time best ____ rankings.

Hes above the guys like Kendall Hill, Hersey Hawkins, and Cuttino Mobley. How far ahead? varies.

They had seasons similar to his.

Shit Joe Johnson, James Harden, Eddie Jones, Darrell Griffith before injury all...similar level.

There are probably 3-4 dozen guys worth having a conversation about if the question is them or Manu.

And so many get disregarded...just thrown aside by history. You google Paul Westphal its clips of him promising the Suns beat the Lakers in 93 as a coach. He was putting up 25/6 in 31 minutes a game on some good teams that overachieved. All NBA first team is Kareem, Bird, Doctor J, George Gervin...and Paul Westphal. But someone who never gave a shit about him or what he did will laugh at dude being compared to Manu.

Or David Thompson. Im sure someone in the Manu wagon will be along to post laughing emoticons next to David Thompson when the guys who played him were in awe and the likes of Walton and Jordan consider him all time great. On the list of best players ever. Plenty of others like that must be brushed aside to get Manu high enough to bother with a ranking.

There are guys in the top 10-15 Manu isnt like...a mile behind. He can compare to some of them in some seasons.

But if you are honest with yourself you have to also admit plenty of guys in the 30-50 range compare with him the same way.

You trying to have a top 38 list argument?

Im not.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Manu at his peak was AT VERY LEAST top 10:coleman:

[Bob Dole]

Manu at his peak was AT VERY LEAST top 10:coleman:

who is he better than off of my list?

Exactly! not to mention the others added by kblaze

[Kblaze8855]

You give everyone the "At his peak" treatment a lot of people get involved. Guys like Arenas and Brandon Roy not even going back into history. You give Manu "At his peak" status and make everyone else consider the whole picture he climbs fast. Keep it fair? Just...the best ball ____ has played?

List gets long.

[bizil]

I think due to his resume and All-Star (not superstar) kind of peak level, he's likely in that top 15-20 range all time at SG. His total skillset on both sides of the rock was one of the best ever at SG. His peak was 20-5-5 caliber stuff and he was 3rd team All NBA. But he wasn't quite as individually dominant as the guys in his era like Kobe, T-Mac, AI, Wade, Ray, Pierce when he lined up at SG for a few seasons, and Vince. That was the Golden Era of SG's in my book and Manu for years was firmly in the top 10 for those years. If a peak Manu was in the L today, he would be a top 4 SG along with Kobe, Harden, and Wade.

[Kblaze8855]

I think id rather have prime healthy Manu over Harden as he is today. I wouldnt argue if someone thought otherwise....but Harden doesnt do it for me. Manu seems easier to integrate into the kind of team id like to build.

[SCdac]

I'd say Manu is around 15-20 all time, and obviously circumstances have both helped and hurt his legacy/career. When casual observers would take guys like say prime Michael Redd or Monta Ellis over him you know something is really off.

For the stat junkies out there, and those who haven't watched him play much, his statistics don't tell the whole story or truly quantify his impact. He's driven, crafty, clutch, a great defender, great playmaker, scorer, finisher, and just a winner. Lead his own teams internationally and has heard some MVP chants from the SA crowd in his prime. His individual winning-% is superb and speaks for itself.

this dive and save kinda epitomizes his effort (notice James Harden, clapping, thought the play was over)... it lead to a game-winning jump shot from Richard Jefferson
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/adrumaddict/Manusave1-13-10.gif

Would definitely take his career over Carter's, J. Johnson's, Harden (so far), Finley, Hamilton, Mobley, Roy, Smith, Gordon, and a bunch of other shooting guards, some of which are statistically better or seem like 'sexier' picks, some of which logged heavy minutes with debatable impact. TMac I think in his peak was better than Manu but was obviously decimated by injuries, and there's definitely guys like AI and Gervin (let alone Jordan) who are in higher tiers.

anyways, here's some great moments in Manu's career

no Duncan or Parker... 26 year old Ginobili nearly leads the Spurs passed the Kobe-Shaq Lakers with 33 points, 12 rebounds, and 7 assists (2003)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8zhDrzorXs

scores 46 points and dishes 8 assists vs. Lebron's Cavs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y7lMkMbImQ

drops 48 points in 44 minutes against Nash's Suns
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uoGnzDLDAU

drops 39 points on Ray Allens Sonics in Game 5 of the 05 semi-finals.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VV6ibmaUFc

scores 24 STRAIGHT points against the Hawks. Just feeling it and scoring at will (2007)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYFJ91zcPVc

Game 1 (26 points) and Game 2 (27 points, 7 Assists) against the defensively great 2005 Pistons in the Finals... in Game 7 he took over as well
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57gGBJbFE3Q

drops 43 points on Dwight Howard's Magic (2010)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgWpNXLY0X4

scores 44 points and hits the Game-Winner against the Timberwolves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RRrdTOBvYk

Game-winner against Melo's Nuggets, takes the Charge against Melo on the other end to seal the win
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EOaswqRUwM

Game-winner in double OT against the Suns in the 08 playoffs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0OFpWO-iao

Game-winning 3 against the Warriors in Game 1 (13)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyowVlZsBow

Game-winning jumper against Serbia (2004)...not NBA but just for the sake of it... dude is a baller
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVpefP_uIac

[aj1987]

I Think Hes as good a pure scorer as wade
:facepalm


Just as gud Of a Defender as both (In Prime)
:facepalm


and a better Playmaker Then Both
:facepalm


athletically is very comparable to both, (Less Explosive Tho)
:facepalm

[Akrazotile]

Top 15 because of rings.

Accomplishments matter.


:facepalm

[houston]

he top 75 for sure:roll:

[215Philly]

I think id rather have prime healthy Manu over Harden as he is today. I wouldnt argue if someone thought otherwise....but Harden doesnt do it for me. Manu seems easier to integrate into the kind of team id like to build.
:biggums: You must be Dolan

[Kblaze8855]

Would definitely take his career over Carter's, J. Johnson's, Harden (so far), Finley, Hamilton, Mobley, Roy, Smith, Gordon, and a bunch of other shooting guards, some of which are statistically better or seem like 'sexier' picks, some of which logged heavy minutes with debatable impact.

You could take his career over Vince Carters. Put them on the same team Manu is in his supporting cast. Might be the same for Joe not that he blows me away.

And which Gordon do you mean? Cant be Ben...Eric?

Eric Gordon justifies a mention in here?




You must be Dolan


I just respect Manus game and have not seen Harden do too much I don't think he could. I don't have anything against Harden....ive just yet to be that impressed. Not like its a personal issue. Must be 30 spurs fans over the years who would tell you I hate Manu. I don't....im just not quick to rank #3 guys over #1s because they won on teams that won before they got there and again before they were real impact players.

Not #1 guys long established as HOF level guys or people who would be barring injury at least.

Harden may be one of them...ill wait and see. Hes doing more midrange damage than I thought lately. I might come around on him.

Right now id take Manu. I mean as a player. I don't care about the career shit on a team that would have won at least 2-3 rings if he never existed. I just think Manu plays basketball better so far. Shooting similar. Similar attacking. Harden better at drawing fouls(annoying as it may be). Id say Manu is better at every aspect of defense(though hardly a dominant defender...he was ok to good). Manu was a brilliant playmaker. Harden showed some promise there but Manu could be a straight up point guard and want for nothing.

Also seems like a tougher competitor. Odd finals collapse aside(Harden had one too)....he doesn't seem to crack under pressure.

I like his game. Ive liked his game since the first time I saw him play.

Im just not putting over guys he would have little hope of unseating as best player if they were on the same team.

Hes a Jojo White. Notch below probably. But that kinda player. He had his times he outplayed Hondo and Cowens. Hell times he outplayed Jerry West. Won a finals MVP. 7 time all star. All NBA player.

But there is John Havlicek...and there is Jojo White.

The end Manu is on is clear to me.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Easily top 10 for peak or career

[Kblaze8855]

Easily top 10 peak or career? Peak?

I wonder when people say shit like that if they even looked into the history of the game. Forget guys like Kobe, West, Tmac, Carter, Wade, AI, Gervin, and Drexler. Everyone knows them.

We all know what they did/were capable of.

You look at lesser known guys who were considered elite....guys who were peers and at times ranked over players in the top 10-20 all time.

David Thompson. At his peak he is a 27/5/5 player leading a good team. Hes scoring at will. Good assist numbers. Has the entire basketball world in awe of him. Handles...speed...44 inch vertical. Jumper. Unstoppable scorer. In the scoring race in 78 his team convinces him to go for it in the last game.

So he drops 52 on 20-23 shooting.

In the first half.

Larry Brown was his coach at the time and says he and the team wanted him to go for 100. Break Wilts record. He declined. Didn't feel comfortable being that selfish even if the team wanted it. So he says hes just gonna play in the flow of the game second half. Only scored 73.

Dude could literally have dropped 90 at will. Chose not to do it.

Bill Walton would tell you David Thompson personally ended UCLAs 7 year streak as national champs(broke a 2 or 3 year winning streak as well) on the way to the national title.

In the NBA in his prime...at his peak..Dr.J...prime Dr.J...considered by many to be the best non center in basketball history at that point...is all NBA second team...because David Thompson beat him out for first.

David Thompson in his prime was an unstoppable scoring machine who was placed over prime Dr.J on the all nba team and when he missed half a season his team won 30 games without him.

Yes he ended up on drugs and alcohol...it ruined what may have been a top 20 all time player.

But nobody who played with or against him would say his peak was less than all time elite for a 2 guard.

And guess what...

He might not have an easily top 10 peak himself!

Sam Jones....Hal Greer...the guys listed above...Earl Monroe was a beast.

Sidney Moncrief was the leading scorer and best playmaker on the 80s Bucks who had the 3rd best record of the decade behind the Lakers and Celtics. Hes one of the few people to knock both Bird and Jordan out of the playoffs...oh and he was back to back DPOY as a 2 guard.

All NBA first team at his peak? Moses Malone, Larry Bird, Dr.J, Magic Johnson...Sidney Moncrief.

This guy was the total package. Scoring, passing, all time great defense leading 60 win teams...all NBA first team.

Manu had a higher peak?

These aren't even players talked about anymore.

And they were ranked along side and at times ahead of people who get top 10 all time talk.

So which is it....Manu at his peak is higher than them or are they just so forgotten they don't get factored in?

I can accept the latter.

If you think Manu peaked higher...id love to hear why.

[comerb]

Gotta be pretty high, not many guys win rings for 2 different teams. :lol

[sportjames23]

Easily top 10 peak or career? Peak?

I wonder when people say shit like that if they even looked into the history of the game. Forget guys like Kobe, West, Tmac, Carter, Wade, AI, Gervin, and Drexler. Everyone knows them.

We all know what they did/were capable of.

You look at lesser known guys who were considered elite....guys who were peers and at times ranked over players in the top 10-20 all time.

David Thompson. At his peak he is a 27/5/5 player leading a good team. Hes scoring at will. Good assist numbers. Has the entire basketball world in awe of him. Handles...speed...44 inch vertical. Jumper. Unstoppable scorer. In the scoring race in 78 his team convinces him to go for it in the last game.

So he drops 52 on 20-23 shooting.

In the first half.

Larry Brown was his coach at the time and says he and the team wanted him to go for 100. Break Wilts record. He declined. Didn't feel comfortable being that selfish even if the team wanted it. So he says hes just gonna play in the flow of the game second half. Only scored 73.

Dude could literally have dropped 90 at will. Chose not to do it.

Bill Walton would tell you David Thompson personally ended UCLAs 7 year streak as national champs(broke a 2 or 3 year winning streak as well) on the way to the national title.

In the NBA in his prime...at his peak..Dr.J...prime Dr.J...considered by many to be the best non center in basketball history at that point...is all NBA second team...because David Thompson beat him out for first.

David Thompson in his prime was an unstoppable scoring machine who was placed over prime Dr.J on the all nba team and when he missed half a season his team won 30 games without him.

Yes he ended up on drugs and alcohol...it ruined what may have been a top 20 all time player.

But nobody who played with or against him would say his peak was less than all time elite for a 2 guard.

And guess what...

He might not have an easily top 10 peak himself!

Sam Jones....Hal Greer...the guys listed above...Earl Monroe was a beast.

Sidney Moncrief was the leading scorer and best playmaker on the 80s Bucks who had the 3rd best record of the decade behind the Lakers and Celtics. Hes one of the few people to knock both Bird and Jordan out of the playoffs...oh and he was back to back DPOY as a 2 guard.

All NBA first team at his peak? Moses Malone, Larry Bird, Dr.J, Magic Johnson...Sidney Moncrief.

This guy was the total package. Scoring, passing, all time great defense leading 60 win teams...all NBA first team.

Manu had a higher peak?

These aren't even players talked about anymore.

And they were ranked along side and at times ahead of people who get top 10 all time talk.

So which is it....Manu at his peak is higher than them or are they just so forgotten they don't get factored in?

I can accept the latter.

If you think Manu peaked higher...id love to hear why.


Sometimes I think learning NBA history should be mandatory on this site, like a course you have to take and pass before your registration is complete. And someone like KBlaze should be responsible for the lesson plan.

Spot on post, my dude. :cheers: