Utah Jazz strategy in the last off season

[Embers]

Anyone understand it in any sense?

Why the hell would you let Big Al and Millsap go for free so easily and keep Favors/Kanter for?

Is it not smart to keep your two uncontracted players and trade away the trio of Favors/Kanter/Hayward? In essence whatever draft pick they get this year + GSW pick isnt going to equate to a better deal then losing Big Al, Millsap and Hayward for zero would represent.

To say its treading water is a understatement. Its just being so ridiculously long sighted you miss the huge enormous short term gains you can actually gain.

Id be surprised if they could not have kept Al + Millsap with big deals and traded into this years draft using Hayward/Kanter/Favors. That trio could have fetched them two very good first round picks along with their own.

Can someone explain to me how it makes sense in any shape or form what they are doing?

[ballup]

Big Al and Millsap win too many games for them.

[Embers]

Big Al and Millsap win too many games for them.

They are probably winning too many games as it is.

The fact is they could have gotten the top 10 picks by trading players under contract as opposed to letting players worth that much leave for zero.

Even if they get pick 1, they have to select Embiid which pretty much means Kanters career at Jazz is over anyway. Even in your best case scenario he isnt worth hanging on too.

[Fire Colangelo]

Idk, Utah fans overrate the hell out of Favors and Kanter IMO. They're gonna be serviceable big men, but not the franchise big men Utah fans will tell you they are.

[TheReturn]

They weren't gonna go anywhere.

[shmozzle]

As a jazz fan, the only move i disagree with is not firing ty corbin. They were on a treadmill with jefferson and millsap.

[Embers]

They weren't gonna go anywhere.

They would have been going somewhere. A random example. Lets say they trade Kanter + Hayward for Holiday + Noel pick (but pick someone more suited), and then trade Favors to Houston for say two future first rounders or something. A team of

Holiday
Burke
Carroll
Millsap
Jefferson

Muhammad, Burks, Evans, fillers

With 3 first rounders coming in. That is a much better current list and long term future then they have now

[shmozzle]

They would have been going somewhere. A random example. Lets say they trade Kanter + Hayward for Holiday + Noel pick (but pick someone more suited), and then trade Favors to Houston for say two future first rounders or something. A team of

Holiday
Burke
Carroll
Millsap
Jefferson

Muhammad, Burks, Evans, fillers

With 3 first rounders coming in. That is a much better current list and long term future then they have now


Where do you see that team finishing this year?

[Embers]

Where do you see that team finishing this year?

In the West id say they are 10-11th with the big difference being they actually have a base to build off and the ability to build fairly quickly.

Is it really worth giving up Al/Millsap/Hayward for zero so you can have a 11% better chance at getting the first pick which Id argue they dont want or need since they badly need a SF.

Your all so obsessed with tanking your ignoring the fact that in basketball terms Al Jefferson + Millsap + Hayward would provide you with more then a 4 or 5 pick difference from say pick 3 to 8.

[Jameerthefear]

They would have been going somewhere. A random example. Lets say they trade Kanter + Hayward for Holiday + Noel pick (but pick someone more suited), and then trade Favors to Houston for say two future first rounders or something. A team of

Holiday
Burke
Carroll
Millsap
Jefferson

Muhammad, Burks, Evans, fillers

With 3 first rounders coming in. That is a much better current list and long term future then they have now
Lol. No one would take those trades. Favors for two 1st rounders? lmao

[shmozzle]

In the West id say they are 10-11th with the big difference being they actually have a base to build off and the ability to build fairly quickly.

Is it really worth giving up Al/Millsap/Hayward for zero so you can have a 11% better chance at getting the first pick which Id argue they dont want or need since they badly need a SF.

Your all so obsessed with tanking your ignoring the fact that in basketball terms Al Jefferson + Millsap + Hayward would provide you with more then a 4 or 5 pick difference from say pick 3 to 8.

Interesting to note that the team this year is (was last time i checked) 18-9 when healthy. With a joke of a coach mind you. Not a huge sample size i know, but all of the 5 young players have proven they can play, as well as players like evans and gobert showing they can contribute.

I think to say they don't have a good base to build off is simply untrue. You have keep in mind how young these guys still are and they are still adjusting to full time rolls, which is on the management to be fair.

[Embers]

Lol. No one would take those trades. Favors for two 1st rounders? lmao

Scola was worth two first rounders essentially for a title contender. Why the heck wouldnt Favors draw that much for another title contender? His contract this year was very good.

Kanter seems to be ridiculously overrated by everyone. He would have fetched a pretty penny still. Few teams would have taken the risk knowing his wages are good. Maybe not the 76ers but a side like Charlotte would have sold the farm (instead of gift wrapping them Big Al). Maybe even Washington too.

Bit unsure of Haywards real worth, but you would have gotten something close to a pick around 15-30

Im confident atleast in the belief that Kanter would have gotten the Jazz a very good PG or top 10 pick. Hayward would have gotten a first rounder and Favors would have gotten two late first rounders or a late first rounder and a 2nd rounder.

Instead they got zero for 3 highly rated players.

[el gringos]

Just being cheap. The owner isn't trying hard enough.

If you are trying then you never give away value. If you wanted you could still have that asset or something of equal value.

[Clyde]

As a jazz fan, the only move i disagree with is not firing ty corbin. They were on a treadmill with jefferson and millsap.

good analogy. Im going to steal it

[El Kabong]

Scola was worth two first rounders essentially for a title contender. Why the heck wouldnt Favors draw that much for another title contender? His contract this year was very good.

Kanter seems to be ridiculously overrated by everyone. He would have fetched a pretty penny still. Few teams would have taken the risk knowing his wages are good. Maybe not the 76ers but a side like Charlotte would have sold the farm (instead of gift wrapping them Big Al). Maybe even Washington too.

Bit unsure of Haywards real worth, but you would have gotten something close to a pick around 15-30

Im confident atleast in the belief that Kanter would have gotten the Jazz a very good PG or top 10 pick. Hayward would have gotten a first rounder and Favors would have gotten two late first rounders or a late first rounder and a 2nd rounder.

Instead they got zero for 3 highly rated players.
How is that any better? So you'd have Big Al, Milsap, Pick #15-30 for Hayward, Pick #7-10 for Kanter (so likely Trey Burke again) and a couple of late first rounders for Favors instead of Favors, Hayward, Kanter, Burke, Burks and the 2 late 1st rounders they'll get from GWS + the cap space they currently have due to the Williams/Rush/Jefferson/Biendrins expiring contracts.

Either way you're not making the playoffs in the West, so why lock yourself down with long term deals with 28+ year olds in Jefferson and Milsap? (Jazz wouldn't have gotten Milsap for the price Atlanta did) Favors isn't going to be a superstar, but he has a chance to develop into a good defensive player, something Jefferson never has been, nor will be. If the Jazz can get a star player, then Hayward is a very good supporting piece to have as well, which you'd want to give away from a mid range draft pick?

I'm not saying what they did was a genius move or anything, and they probably expected to suck a bit more than they have been (or expected other teams not to suck as bad), but it's at least got some hope for the future.


Just being cheap. The owner isn't trying hard enough.

If you are trying then you never give away value. If you wanted you could still have that asset or something of equal value.
I'm pretty sure they've already said that the deals they were offered with Jefferson required them to take back a long term deal in return, which hardly anyone, especially a non-playoff team does under the current CBA.

[Im so nba'd out]

maybe trillsap and big al didnt want to be in the utah

[Xiao Yao You]

Anyone understand it in any sense?

Why the hell would you let Big Al and Millsap go for free so easily and keep Favors/Kanter for?

Because they are better without Al and Kanter is already comparable and getting better by the day and makes a lot less money. Millsap they shouldn't have let go but they are tanking. No telling how good they'd be if they had him starting instead of Marvin.


Is it not smart to keep your two uncontracted players and trade away the trio of Favors/Kanter/Hayward? In essence whatever draft pick they get this year + GSW pick isnt going to equate to a better deal then losing Big Al, Millsap and Hayward for zero would represent.

Letting Al go was a no brainer. They didn't lose them for nothing. They created the cap space to make the deal with GS. Allows them to pay Favors next year. Gives them flexibility.


To say its treading water is a understatement. Its just being so ridiculously long sighted you miss the huge enormous short term gains you can actually gain.

Treading water was the reason they did it. Be mediocre or tank and possibly get the franchise player they've been missing since sending Deron down the road.


Id be surprised if they could not have kept Al + Millsap with big deals and traded into this years draft using Hayward/Kanter/Favors. That trio could have fetched them two very good first round picks along with their own.

They could have kept them but why trade away young talent?


Big Al and Millsap win too many games for them.

Millsap would have certainly. Healthy this year they are better than they were with a team that revolved around Al though.


They are probably winning too many games as it is.

Certainly. Makes you wonder how good they'd be with Millsap, Demarre and a veteran combo guard(not named John Lucas) like Mo.


The fact is they could have gotten the top 10 picks by trading players under contract as opposed to letting players worth that much leave for zero.

We don't know what kind of deals they were offered. Letting contracts expire isn't nothing.


Even if they get pick 1, they have to select Embiid which pretty much means Kanters career at Jazz is over anyway. Even in your best case scenario he isnt worth hanging on too.

Unless Kanter shows he can play with Favors in the next year he's probably gone anyway. If Emiid is as good as advertised it might be Favors sent packing though. Kanter is one of their top two scoring threats. He's worth hanging onto for the time being.


Utah fans overrate the hell out of Favors and Kanter IMO. They're gonna be serviceable big men, but not the franchise big men Utah fans will tell you they are.

Not sure anyone has called Kanter a franchise player ever. Favors has certainly been hyped up to be a lot more than he's been thus far. They're still getting better especially Enes so time will tell what their ceiling is.


They would have been going somewhere. A random example. Lets say they trade Kanter + Hayward for Holiday + Noel pick (but pick someone more suited),

Philly just gave away a comparable player to Hayward in Turner. Why would they have wanted Hayward while giving up a high pick?


and then trade Favors to Houston for say two future first rounders or something. A team of

Favors is a similar type player to Dwight. Why would they want him?


Holiday
Burke
Carroll
Millsap
Jefferson

Muhammad, Burks, Evans, fillers


So you're staring 2 pg's?


With 3 first rounders coming in. That is a much better current list and long term future then they have now

:facepalm


Is it really worth giving up Al/Millsap/Hayward for zero so you can have a 11% better chance at getting the first pick which Id argue they dont want or need since they badly need a SF.

Hayward is a sf. Right now it looks as if a stretch 4/3 like Jabari Parker is what they need most. If Hayward goes elsewhere than they need a 3.


a joke of a coach mind you.

They joke of a coach has had his teams overachieving the past 3 years despite his faults.


(Jazz wouldn't have gotten Milsap for the price Atlanta did)

Why? He would have taken the same amount maybe even less to stay in Utah. They blew it with Millsap. Obviosuly they didn't envision Marvin Williams taking over for Kanter in the starting line-up.


If the Jazz can get a star player, then Hayward is a very good supporting piece to have as well, which you'd want to give away from a mid range draft pick?

And his a great fit in Utah.


I'm not saying what they did was a genius move or anything, and they probably expected to suck a bit more than they have been (or expected other teams not to suck as bad), but it's at least got some hope for the future.

The picks from GS are looking genius right now after what we seen at the trade deadline and no one was giving up 1st round picks. They didn't expect to be competitive. Amazing with such a terrible coach eh?


maybe trillsap and big al didnt want to be in the utah

Sure they did. The whole team revolved around Al. Why would he want to leave? Millsap had spent his whole career there. I'm sure he wanted to stay ideally.

[mrpibb]

Interesting to note that the team this year is (was last time i checked) 18-9 when healthy. With a joke of a coach mind you. Not a huge sample size i know, but all of the 5 young players have proven they can play, as well as players like evans and gobert showing they can contribute.

I think to say they don't have a good base to build off is simply untrue. You have keep in mind how young these guys still are and they are still adjusting to full time rolls, which is on the management to be fair.

I'm curious why you think Corbin's a joke of a coach. If it were just the players, don't you think they'd be a lot better than they are when they're unhealthy? They were 0-7 without Favors and 1-12 without Burke. Doesn't that sound like Corbin's making the most out of how little talent he has?

@OP

Why would you have to pick Embiid if you have the No. 1 overall pick? Everyone has different draft boards, and if they can drop to #3 to get Wiggins or Parker, maybe even farther and pick up Smart, I'm sure they could wheel and deal. You're arguing with fans who have stuck through a rough season and know a lot more about the reasoning than you do.

[WWRWestbrookDo?]

Anyone understand it in any sense?

Why the hell would you let Big Al and Millsap go for free so easily and keep Favors/Kanter for?

Is it not smart to keep your two uncontracted players and trade away the trio of Favors/Kanter/Hayward? In essence whatever draft pick they get this year + GSW pick isnt going to equate to a better deal then losing Big Al, Millsap and Hayward for zero would represent.

To say its treading water is a understatement. Its just being so ridiculously long sighted you miss the huge enormous short term gains you can actually gain.

Id be surprised if they could not have kept Al + Millsap with big deals and traded into this years draft using Hayward/Kanter/Favors. That trio could have fetched them two very good first round picks along with their own.

Can someone explain to me how it makes sense in any shape or form what they are doing?

You're being too simple. They haven't won in the past with Millsap or Jefferson so it was time to get younger and rebuild.

Obviously they felt Kanter and Favors were their new cornerstones.

[shmozzle]

I'm curious why you think Corbin's a joke of a coach. If it were just the players, don't you think they'd be a lot better than they are when they're unhealthy? They were 0-7 without Favors and 1-12 without Burke. Doesn't that sound like Corbin's making the most out of how little talent he has?

@OP

Why would you have to pick Embiid if you have the No. 1 overall pick? Everyone has different draft boards, and if they can drop to #3 to get Wiggins or Parker, maybe even farther and pick up Smart, I'm sure they could wheel and deal. You're arguing with fans who have stuck through a rough season and know a lot more about the reasoning than you do.

I think he is a bad coach because watching this team since his appointment as head coach i am yet to see any development of an effective defensive and to a lesser extent offensive system. He has also displayed poor game management time and time again and his insistence on playing veterans heavy minutes in the place of young talent to the point where we are still waiting to see how these players can perform after years in the league is mind boggling.

I could also add that there have been a number of times where it seems like he is just unable to inspire any effort from our young guys, but i can admit that is not something that i should just assume, sitting on the couch at home.

[BlackVVaves]

They should have kept Milsap.

Also, Favors has been the perennial case of "this is HIS year!!"

He was overrated as a Net, and continues to be overrated as a member of the Jazz. He's valued defensively, but no where near the franchise player many heralded him as.

Other than that, I'd say the Jazz have done alright. Yeah they suck, but before this season they overachieved with Corbin at the helm, and truthfully, better to fail this season than be first round fodder for true contenders in the West.

In terms of the draft, who were some players the Jazz overlooked with their picks since Deron left? That would be a better indicator of their front offices' ineptitude if there is any, because clearly the Jazz's only hope to build a winner is through the draft - players aren't fumbling over themselves to play in Utah.

[ihatetimthomas]

Youth movement. We all know with Big Al and Milsap that they were nothing better than a 1st round exit at the very best. Why sign them to long term deals when they will be leaving their primes during the contract? They decided to roll the dice with their young players and see if they can be more than them.

[Xiao Yao You]

I think he is a bad coach because watching this team since his appointment as head coach i am yet to see any development of an effective defensive and to a lesser extent offensive system. He has also displayed poor game management time and time again and his insistence on playing veterans heavy minutes in the place of young talent to the point where we are still waiting to see how these players can perform after years in the league is mind boggling.

I could also add that there have been a number of times where it seems like he is just unable to inspire any effort from our young guys, but i can admit that is not something that i should just assume, sitting on the couch at home.

Sounds a lot like Jerry Sloan who could do no wrong.

[bdreason]

Burke, Burks, and Hayward are solid players. I'm not sold on Favors and Kanter as starters, but they're solid too. If they can add a top prospect like Wiggins, Embiid, or Parker the Jazz could be back in the playoff picture in a couple years.

[andremiller07]

Burke, Burks, and Hayward are solid players. I'm not sold on Favors and Kanter as starters, but they're solid too. If they can add a top prospect like Wiggins, Embiid, or Parker the Jazz could be back in the playoff picture in a couple years.
Favors is without question a starter and the Jazz are 1-24 or 1-23 when Kantar starts.

[shmozzle]

Sounds a lot like Jerry Sloan who could do no wrong.

I only started following the jazz at the beginning of sloans last season, so i don't have much of an opinion of him.

[shmozzle]

Favors is without question a starter and the Jazz are 1-24 or 1-23 with Kantar starts.

That stat is somewhat misleading. kanter has had some good performances as a starter, but most of his starts have come without burke or favors in the lineup which hurts us.

[Xiao Yao You]

Burke, Burks, and Hayward are solid players. I'm not sold on Favors and Kanter as starters, but they're solid too. If they can add a top prospect like Wiggins, Embiid, or Parker the Jazz could be back in the playoff picture in a couple years.

They should be back in the playoff picture next year. They have a playoff record when healthy this year with one pg who is a rookie with a lot to learn yet. With Millsap(instead of Marvin), Demarre and Mo(or someone one else decent) they might have been this year while still being able to develop their young guys.


Favors is without question a starter and the Jazz are 1-24 or 1-23 when Kantar starts.

He's a double double guy. Going to need someone next to him who can carry the load offensively next to him though like Kanter. Rather they can start together remains to be seen.

[mrpibb]

That stat is somewhat misleading. kanter has had some good performances as a starter, but most of his starts have come without burke or favors in the lineup which hurts us.

Individual performances do not necessarily equate to wins. Kanter needs to become a better passer and a better defender, and for that reason the team has struggled with him on the floor.

[Embers]

Why does keeping Favors and Kanter represent a rebuild, but the picks they could have got by trading them not?

They would have been better off using this draft to rebuild by trying to grab 3 first rounders and keeping the better outright ballers in Millsap + Jefferson.

A rebuild I view is what Philly, Orlando and Phoenix have done. Trade away the assets for future draft picks with the eye of using them to rebuild. In the mean time bring in young players with alot to prove to take up the list spots

Utah atm just have 1 extra measley 1st rounder this year (likely to be in the 20s) and a bunch of 2nd rounders in 3 years time. In the mean time they have clogged the list up with old has beens or duds (see GSW trade) who are getting game time atm, made zero asset trades and in general have put the entire rebuild on the back of 1 hopeful top 5 selection this season.

As far as the rebuilding phase goes I think Utah are at the bottom of the ladder and the scary thing is they have the least assets going into the future too

[Embers]

Also not enough criticism of the 48/4 deal Favors got

Think I could name 20 better options at PF atm I would prefer. Think it will end up in tears that one

[Xiao Yao You]

Individual performances do not necessarily equate to wins. Kanter needs to become a better passer and a better defender, and for that reason the team has struggled with him on the floor.

He continues to improve in those areas as you'd expect. He works hard and has continued to make big strides since they got him.


Why does keeping Favors and Kanter represent a rebuild, but the picks they could have got by trading them not?

They would have been better off using this draft to rebuild by trying to grab 3 first rounders and keeping the better outright ballers in Millsap + Jefferson.

They have 2 picks as it is. They have plenty of young guys. They have Neto and Tomic overseas that could possibly come over and help too. They are better without Al. Plain and simple. The rest of the team stood around while Al did his thing. Defensively he couldn't defend a pick and roll. Kanter is already comparable to Al and younger and cheaper.

If they knew Kanter would end up on the bench and that they'd be as good as they've been when healthy this year they might have kept Millsap, Demarre and Mo. Was hard to predict that though.


A rebuild I view is what Philly, Orlando and Phoenix have done. Trade away the assets for future draft picks with the eye of using them to rebuild. In the mean time bring in young players with alot to prove to take up the list spots

Philly traded away Turner and Hawes. Two young proven vets. That would be similar to trading away Millsap not trading away two unproven youngsters like Favors, Kanter and Haywood.


Utah atm just have 1 extra measley 1st rounder this year (likely to be in the 20s) and a bunch of 2nd rounders in 3 years time.

No they have two and many in coming years as well.


In the mean time they have clogged the list up with old has beens or duds (see GSW trade) who are getting game time atm, made zero asset trades and in general have put the entire rebuild on the back of 1 hopeful top 5 selection this season.

The has beens and duds brought them a bunch of picks including 2 firsts and are expiring so they can pay Favors and Hayward whatever they want to if they choose. The rebuild is on their young core who were already rotation players on a playoff team and a team that barely missed the playoffs in the west.


As far as the rebuilding phase goes I think Utah are at the bottom of the ladder and the scary thing is they have the least assets going into the future

Utah could be a playoff team next year(and could have been this year if they'd done things differently) so I guess it depends on how you look at things.

Philly trading away good young talent for 2nd round picks isn't that great if you ask me. Phoenix ended up with a couple of young all-star talents while they were trying to tank. Only difference I see between them and the Jazz.

[Xiao Yao You]

Also not enough criticism of the 48/4 deal Favors got

Think I could name 20 better options at PF atm I would prefer. Think it will end up in tears that one

Are they 20 better options that the Jazz could have had? There was plenty of criticism about the deal here on ISH. Remains to be seen if he's worth it. Doesn't kick in til next year and he is improving not at the rate of Kanter or Burks but he is.

[ballup]

They are probably winning too many games as it is.

The fact is they could have gotten the top 10 picks by trading players under contract as opposed to letting players worth that much leave for zero.

Even if they get pick 1, they have to select Embiid which pretty much means Kanters career at Jazz is over anyway. Even in your best case scenario he isnt worth hanging on too.
On paper, they had one of the worst teams coming into the season and no, they won't have to pick Embiid if they landed the first pick. In 08, Beasley was the consensus first pick for most, if not all mocks. Chicago picked Rose instead.