How many 'All NBA 1st Team Defense' Awards has Kobe stolen from Dwayne Wade?

[Jameerthefear]

Title.

[Clyde]

None.

Why the hate?

[Keno]

at least five. which is why i laugh when kobe stans use this award to prove kobe's a great defender, when real fans know he's below average.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

five to six.
when healthy Dwayne has always been the better defender:coleman:

[Black and White]

Jameer still trying to save face :oldlol:

[Keno]

And what category do you fall under?

goat fans, and the goat fans know he's even worse than a below average defender.

[JohnFreeman]

I am not sure of a number, but Wade should definitely have as many.

[Clyde]

How many people in this thread are going to be over the age of 25, and actually seen the bulk of Kobe's career?

[Jameerthefear]

None.

Why the hate?
Not really hating. Don't care enough about Kobe to hate, but Wade has obviously almost always been the better defender.

[Smook A.]

Around 5-6. During Kobe's prime years he was a pretty good defender but in some of those years Wade was better. I think Kobe was a bit overrated as a defender. He was still good nonetheless, but Dwyane Wade deserved some of the 1st team selections

[navy]

Probably 2-3 from Wade. He stole some from other defenders as well though.

[Akrazotile]

Tons.

The honest truth, and I dont say this just cause I hate his stans, but Kobe has never been a good defender. Theres just no evidence of it, yet plenty of evidence that hes not.

Give me clips, give me examples of what his defensive skillset is, opponents he shut down, memorable defensive series etc. Theres nothing. He put no effort into the defensive end. He even stated openly, and selfishly, that he wont take a charge for the team. He is not above average on defense and never was, period.

People want to force the Jordan legacy onto him of being an all around force. He just wasnt. Period.

[Clyde]

Not really hating. Don't care enough about Kobe to hate, but Wade has obviously almost always been the better defender.

Ya, it's a fan vote and popularity contest.

I forget these things

:rolleyes:

[Black and White]

Not really hating. Don't care enough about Kobe to hate, but Wade has obviously almost always been the better defender.

For someone that doesn't care about Kobe, you sure like to talk a lot of shit about him.....

[Milbuck]

Exactly when did Jameer become such a shitty poster?

[Clyde]

For someone that doesn't care about Kobe, you sure like to talk a lot of shit about him.....

He's like 16....he hasn't even seen most of Kobe's career.

Some sports fans just have blind hate for no reason.

[Clyde]

Tons.

The honest truth, and I dont say this just cause I hate his stans, but Kobe has never been a good defender. Theres just no evidence of it, yet plenty of evidence that hes not.

Give me clips, give me examples of what his defensive skillset is, opponents he shut down, memorable defensive series etc. Theres nothing. He put no effort into the defensive end. He even stated openly, and selfishly, that he wont take a charge for the team. He is not above average on defense and never was, period.

People want to force the Jordan legacy onto him of being an all around force. He just wasnt. Period.

New to the NBA??

Enjoy....it's a great game

[JohnFreeman]

Exactly when did Jameer become such a shitty poster?
Jun 2011

[moe94]

Ya, it's a fan vote and popularity contest.

I forget these things

:rolleyes:

Kobe Bryant has enough first team selections to suggest he's the greatest perimeter defender of his generation or any generation. Is this true?

[Clyde]

Kobe Bryant has enough first team selections to suggest he's the greatest perimeter defender of his generation or any generation. Is this true?

Work hard and good things will happen

[JohnFreeman]

Clyde I don't think you believe that Kobe deserves all those.

[moe94]

Work hard and good things will happen

What? :biggums: :oldlol:

[Black and White]

Jun 2011

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Clyde]

Go look at who won all the second team and tell me where and who he should have lost to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_All-Defensive_Team

also look at how many 2nd team Wade has....who's stealing from who??

/close this thread

[Micku]

Kobe and Wade stole some from Tony Allen more than Kobe stole from Wade. But the 2011 and 2012 were pretty glaring and a steal. But it's the coaches fault for voting Kobe based upon reputation. I'm still in awe at the lack of respect Wade and Tony Allen got. Mike Conley needed some respect too.

From 2009-12 Kobe didn't deserve it imo. Tony Allen, Wade, Sefolosha, and Andre Iguodala were all better defenders in this period. But the 11 and 12 are pretty awful imo. Kobe does have his moments where he does defend, but never consistent enough. Especially to be placed over Tony Allen.

[kennethgriffin]

considering wade has none

and considering theres 2 guard spots ( so even if kobe makes it theres room if wade truly deserves it )

and considering kobe didnt make it in 2013 ( while wade didnt even finish top 28 in voting http://www.nba.com/2013/news/05/13/all-defensive-team-official-release/ )

and considering kobe was 2nd team in 2012 ( while wade didnt even finish top 16 in voting http://www.nba.com/2012/news/05/23/nba-all-defensive-team-2011-2012/

and considering in 2011 wade was 12th in voting.. behind derrick rose who didnt even make 2nd team all defense http://www.nba.com/2011/news/05/09/2010-11-all-defensive-teams/

and considering in 2010 and any year before that kobe was still an elite defender ... while wade didnt even have more votes than rondo ( which would have put him first team ) http://www.nba.com/2010/news/05/05/all.defense/index.html



it turns out... nobody but wade kept him off that 1st team all defense. and even during his last 2 selections that were off reputation after his knee problems in 2011. wade wasnt anywhere close to even sniffing the team


but to rub it in even more

kobe in 2009 was yet again not the man infront of wade keeping him off 1st team all defense.. chris paul was 2nd in votes.. http://www.nba.com/2009/news/05/06/defensive.team/index.html?cid=playoff1


in 2008 wade didnt finish top 40 in voting .. infact he didnt even register a single vote http://www.nba.com/news/defensive_team_080512.html

[Clyde]

Kobe and Wade stole some from Tony Allen more than Kobe stole from Wade. But the 2011 and 2012 were pretty glaring and a steal. But it's the coaches fault for voting Kobe based upon reputation. I'm still in awe at the lack of respect Wade and Tony Allen got. Mike Conley needed some respect too.

From 2009-12 Kobe didn't deserve it imo. Tony Allen, Wade, Sefolosha, and Andre Iguodala were all better defenders in this period. But the 11 and 12 are pretty awful imo. Kobe does have his moments where he does defend, but never consistent enough. Especially to be placed over Tony Allen.

Thank you for your opinion.

To be clear, I can live with someone saying Kobe has won too many....but I can't live with someone saying he stole 5-6 from Wade when Wade only has 3 second team all defense awards to his name.

[Clyde]

considering wade has none

and considering theres 2 guard spots ( so even if kobe makes it theres room if wade truly deserves it )

and considering kobe didnt make it in 2013 ( while wade didnt even finish top 28 in voting http://www.nba.com/2013/news/05/13/all-defensive-team-official-release/ )

and considering kobe was 2nd team in 2012 ( while wade didnt even finish top 16 in voting http://www.nba.com/2012/news/05/23/nba-all-defensive-team-2011-2012/

and considering in 2011 wade was 12th in voting.. behind derrick rose who didnt even make 2nd team all defense http://www.nba.com/2011/news/05/09/2010-11-all-defensive-teams/

and considering in 2010 and any year before that kobe was still an elite defender ... while wade didnt even have more votes than rondo ( which would have put him first team ) http://www.nba.com/2010/news/05/05/all.defense/index.html




it turns out... nobody but wade kept him off that 1st team all defense. and even during his last 2 selections that were off reputation after his knee problems in 2011. wade wasnt anywhere close to even sniffing the team


but to rub it in even more

kobe in 2009 was yet again not the man infront of wade keeping him off 1st team all defense.. chris paul was 2nd in votes.. http://www.nba.com/2009/news/05/06/defensive.team/index.html?cid=playoff1


in 2008 wade didnt finish top 40 in voting .. infact he didnt even register a single vote http://www.nba.com/news/defensive_team_080512.html

I like you, you seem like a good poster who provides facts backed up with links.

wish there were more people on here like that.

[fpliii]

06
11

Kobe deserved 1st team all-defense in 00, 01, 02, 08, 09 IMO and I have no problem with him winning in 03, 04, 10.

[Warfan]

Kobe's been a great defender at times during his career. I don't think he necessarily deserve every selection he got even when he was younger (like in 06' & 07'). I think he did deserve the 1st team selections in 00', 01, 02', 03', 04', 08' and 09' (and maybe 10'). Id have to look at who made the 2nd teams as well and think about who would deserve his place but I cant be bothered right now...

So Iggy, Allen or Wade probably deserved kobe 1st team and 2nd team selection from and 11, 12

[Heavincent]

Iguodala is the one who has gotten robbed. He's a better defender than both Kobe and Wade.

[fpliii]

Iguodala is the one who has gotten robbed. He's a better defender than both Kobe and Wade.
:applause:

Best perimeter defender in the game.

[gts]

Title.
this is a great question.. if you'd like I could compile a list with e-maill addy's from all the NBA coach's who voted and you can ask them why Kobe has so many more than Wade does

[Heavincent]

:applause:

Best perimeter defender in the game.

Has been for most of his career.

[kennethgriffin]

06
11

Kobe deserved 1st team all-defense in 00, 01, 02, 08, 09 IMO and I have no problem with him winning in 03, 04, 10.

sorry fpliii.. you should have done your research like i did


in 2011 the voting was

1st team
g - kobe
g - rondo

2nd team
g - allen
g - paul

and

g - derrick rose was infront of wade in voting aswell


in 2006 it was

1st team

g - kobe
g - kidd

2nd team

g - billups
g - no other guard ( 3 forwards )

with wade finishing 16th in voting. behind 1 other guard who didnt make 2nd team ( and would have had they not had 3 forwards )


so its physically impossible for kobe to have cost wade 1st team all defense ... or any all nba defensive spot period

[Legends66NBA7]

:applause:

Best perimeter defender in the game.

Not Jimmy Butler ?

[BlackVVaves]

Jameer, your unhealthy obsession with Kobe and the Lakers is frightening.

Serious question man, what happened to you? You used to be a rational contributor to the message board.

[fpliii]

Has been for most of his career.
Who preceeded him you think? Bowen or Artest probably?

I'll get a lot of hate but I do think for a minute (99, 00, 01) Kobe was at or close to the top.

[Micku]

Iguodala is the one who has gotten robbed. He's a better defender than both Kobe and Wade.

I personally think it's Tony Allen. He's a beast defensively. I seen him even defend SFs pretty well, which is amazing for his size. But Iggy is good as well.

[fpliii]

sorry fpliii.. you should have done your research like i did


in 2011 the voting was

1st team
g - kobe
g - rondo

2nd team
g - allen
g - paul

and

g - derrick rose was infront of wade in voting aswell


in 2006 it was

1st team

g - kobe
g - kidd

2nd team

g - billups
g - no other guard ( 3 forwards )

with wade finishing 16th in voting. behind 1 other guard who didnt make 2nd team ( and would have had they not had 3 forwards )


so its physically impossible for kobe to have cost wade 1st team all defense ... or any all nba defensive spot period
griff - I don't care about popularity contests. But Kobe wasn't the only guy Wade should've beaten those years.

Not Jimmy Butler ?
Best LeBron stopper, but Iggy passes the eye test and rates out very well in advanced metrics.

[T_L_P]

Kobe Stans use every possible legend quote to boost up their icon. Let them have this one:

"Kobe’s defense, to be accurate, has faltered in recent years, despite his presence on the league’s all-defensive team. The voters have been seduced by his remarkable athleticism and spectacular steals, but he hasn't played sound, fundamental defense. Mesmerized by the ball, he’s gambled too frequently, putting us out of position, forcing rotations that leave a man wide open, and doesn’t keep his feet on the ground." -- Phil Jackson

[kennethgriffin]

griff - I don't care about popularity contests. But Kobe wasn't the only guy Wade should've beaten those years.

Best LeBron stopper, but Iggy passes the eye test and rates out very well in advanced metrics.


the title of the thread isnt " what should wade have gotten" its "how many 1st team defenses has kobe stolen from wade"

i answered with factual evidence proving that its impossible for kobe to have stolen any from wade

[Micku]

Best LeBron stopper, but Iggy passes the eye test and rates out very well in advanced metrics.

I don't think Iggy is better than Jimmy Butler this year on advance metrics. But Iggy is more versatile it seems.

[Heavincent]

Who proceeded him you think? Bowen or Artest probably?

I'll get a lot of hate but I do think for a minute (99, 00, 01) Kobe was at or close to the top.

Yeah, probably Artest.

And yes, Kobe was an elite perimeter defender in the early 2000's and then the late 2000's as well.

[BlackVVaves]

Iguodala is the one who has gotten robbed. He's a better defender than both Kobe and Wade.

Definitely agree.

I think Kobe was undeserving in 2006, 2010, and 2011. I can't really recall his defensive impact in 2004, but I do know Malone was their defensive anchor that year. So 2004 may be questionable as well.

[gts]

[QUOTE=T_L_P]Kobe Stans use every possible legend quote to boost up their icon. Let them have this one:

"Kobe

[kennethgriffin]

[QUOTE=T_L_P]Kobe Stans use every possible legend quote to boost up their icon. Let them have this one:

"Kobe

[fpliii]

the title of the thread isnt " what should wade have gotten" its "how many 1st team defenses has kobe stolen from wade"

i answered with factual evidence proving that its impossible for kobe to have stolen any from wade
I guess you're right technically, apologies.

I don't think Iggy is better than Jimmy Butler this year on advance metrics. But Iggy is more versatile it seems.
Beats him in RAPM:

http://talkingpracticeblog.com/

[fpliii]

I personally think it's Tony Allen. He's a beast defensively. I seen him even defend SFs pretty well, which is amazing for his size. But Iggy is good as well.
Agreed, he does a great job on some 3's.

[JohnFreeman]

Allen is a better defender then Iguodala

[T_L_P]

same guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtvRatRkevw


"kobes more skilled than jordan" - phil jackson

I heard nothing about Kobe's great defense.

Try again.

[BlackVVaves]

[QUOTE=T_L_P]Kobe Stans use every possible legend quote to boost up their icon. Let them have this one:

"Kobe

[chazzy]

at least five

five to six.

Around 5-6.

Tons.

This thread is cool because it exposes people who have no idea what they're talking about. There's been a total of TWO years where Kobe was 1st team and Wade was 2nd team.

[kennethgriffin]

I heard nothing about Kobe's great defense.

Try again.


i hear he's tied for the most 1st team all defensive awards in history

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liIYL7YcePI

^ heres your favorite players coach saying kobes more talented at defense than timmy "most talented player in the game at BOTH ends of the floor" .. wasnt that during duncans prime? i believe it was a 2006 interview


:lol you f*ckin tool

[gts]

This thread is cool because it exposes people who have no idea what they're talking about. There's been a total of TWO years where Kobe was 1st team and Wade was 2nd team.

well now you're just letting facts get in the way of a perfectly good troll thread by Jampedo

this is ISH, you never go full factual

[BlackVVaves]

i hear he's tied for the most 1st team all defensive awards in history

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liIYL7YcePI

^ heres your favorite players coach saying kobes more talented at defense than timmy "most talented player in the game at BOTH ends of the floor" .. wasnt that during duncans prime? i believe it was a 2006 interview


:lol you f*ckin tool

C'mon man. I know you're a troll, but don't tell me you think Kobe was ever as effective defensively as Duncan.

[T_L_P]

i hear he's tied for the most 1st team all defensive awards in history

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liIYL7YcePI

^ heres your favorite players coach saying kobes more talented at defense than timmy "most talented player in the game at BOTH ends of the floor" .. wasnt that during duncans prime? i believe it was a 2006 interview


:lol you f*ckin tool

Lol, can't refute my post so you deflect to a quote by someone else.

You followed the guidebook well, my friend :applause:

[Micku]

Beats him in RAPM:

http://talkingpracticeblog.com/

Oh, wow! This is the first time I've heard of RAPM (Regularized Adjusted Plus-Minus) and this site. *goes research it*

But Iggy does seem more important on the defensive end with the Warriors than Jimmy Butler does with the Bulls. It shows also on the plus/minus.

[pauk]

Some, maybe none, not sure... but Tony Allen, a couple...

[fpliii]

Oh, wow! This is the first time I've heard of RAPM (Regularized Adjusted Plus-Minus) and this site. *goes research it*

But Iggy does seem more important on the defensive end with the Warriors than Jimmy Butler does with the Bulls. It shows also on the plus/minus.
It's not perfect, but it does capture a lot of the stuff not in the box score. Here are some old seasons worth of data:

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/

RAPM goes back as far as play-by-play data, so the earliest available is 96-97. This guy did that season, as well as 97-98 and 98-99:

ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt.blogspot.com

[Heavincent]

Oh, wow! This is the first time I've heard of RAPM (Regularized Adjusted Plus-Minus) and this site. *goes research it*

But Iggy does seem more important on the defensive end with the Warriors than Jimmy Butler does with the Bulls. It shows also on the plus/minus.

Yep, Iggy actually leads the entire league in plus/minus. Warriors also allow 7.4 points fewer per 100 possessions with him on the floor.

[fpliii]

Yep, Iggy actually leads the entire league in plus/minus. Warriors also allow 7.4 points fewer with him on the floor.
That team is severely underachieving for the talent they have. I understand the West is tough, but they should have a much better record.

Is it possible Mark Jackson is holding them back?

[chazzy]

well now you're just letting facts get in the way of a perfectly good troll thread by Jampedo

this is ISH, you never go full factual
Seriously. 5 to 6? You can already eliminate Wade's 04, 05, 07, 08, 12, and 13 because either Kobe wasn't 1st team, or Wade missed too many games. And then you're left with 06, 09, 10, 11. Wade wasn't even 2nd team in 06 and 11. So there are factually only 2 years you can make the argument. Sorry Jameer.. lol

[JohnFreeman]

That team is severely underachieving for the talent they have. I understand the West is tough, but they should have a much better record.

Is it possible Mark Jackson is holding them back?
He isn't praying enough.

[Rocketswin2013]

Look at it like this, Kobe singlehandedly turned ALL-NBA 1st team defense into a joke. Pretty much the same way he turned the All-star game into a joke this year. People just like to vote him into shit because of his name.

[Cold soul]

Exactly when did Jameer become such a shitty poster?

Since birth is my guess. Not his fault Jameer was born with a mental disability and illness. The Mods need to ban him ASAP, he's out of control.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Definitely agree.

I think Kobe was undeserving in 2006, 2010, and 2011. I can't really recall his defensive impact in 2004, but I do know Malone was their defensive anchor that year. So 2004 may be questionable as well.


:biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

[Clyde]

:lol
:biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

My thoughts exactly

[Micku]

Yep, Iggy actually leads the entire league in plus/minus. Warriors also allow 7.4 points fewer per 100 possessions with him on the floor.

I knew it was high, but I didn't know he leads the league with it. That's pretty amazing.


That team is severely underachieving for the talent they have. I understand the West is tough, but they should have a much better record.

Is it possible Mark Jackson is holding them back?

Yeah. I don't understand why they don't have a better record either. I know that Iggy being hurt early in the season hurt them a lot, but it's amazing that Iggy being out hurt them that much. But I also think someone else was hurt during that time? I don't remember. Maybe it's the bench or they need a new coach. I expected them to be a better version than Portland. I expected their offense to be same as Portland with better d.

The Wolves are another team that puzzles me. Top 10 in offense and defense (11 now), and still not in the playoffs. I thought they would be better than their record.

[Laker4Lyfe]

What happened to ISH? :confusedshrug::facepalm

[gts]

Seriously. 5 to 6? You can already eliminate Wade's 04, 05, 07, 08, 12, and 13 because either Kobe wasn't 1st team, or Wade missed too many games. And then you're left with 06, 09, 10, 11. Wade wasn't even 2nd team in 06 and 11. So there are factually only 2 years you can make the argument. Sorry Jameer.. lol

Sadly this information will be ignored en masse

[gts]

What happened to ISH? :confusedshrug::facepalm


Hey you how you doing? long time no see

[alec613]

Not really hating. Don't care enough about Kobe to hate, but Wade has obviously almost always been the better defender.

:biggums:

[Heavincent]

That team is severely underachieving for the talent they have. I understand the West is tough, but they should have a much better record.

Is it possible Mark Jackson is holding them back?

They did kind of underachieve up until the all star break, but it looks like they've put it all together now. They'll be scary in the playoffs.

[rhythmic]

this is a great question.. if you'd like I could compile a list with e-maill addy's from all the NBA coach's who voted and you can ask them why Kobe has so many more than Wade does

Why do you people continue to post in this thread beyond this post?
Just summed up everything. Another thread with propaganda driven Kobe hate on ISH.

Wade? You idiots really need to educate yourselves on the differences between weak-side defense and man to man defense. MOST coaches value man to man defense over weak side, which is why Wade is way below Kobe. Fact is up until 2010, he was NEVER better at Kobe on defense...ever. So quit using his 2 SPG & 2 BPG as some sort of proof. Dennis Rodman never accumulated high SPG/BPG numbers but was considered a phenomenal defender.

I don't think Kobe was anywhere consistent enough to win 1st team All-D past 2010, but from 2000 to 2010; every award he has won, he earned. I lost count of how many times Kobe took on the assignment to shut down oppositions best player and succeeded. I've seen him in 2009 shut down guys like Chris Paul for stretches, and he was in his 30's.

Bottom line, NBA coaches vote for this award... you know guys who actually perform the X's and O's against Kobe and watch hours of tape...those are the guys that get paid millions of dollars to analyze the game of basketball and give their teams the best chance at winning. You guys can barely scrape enough change to buy some popcorn so you can sit behind a computer, trying to think of new creative ways to diss Kobe's career.

[Magic731]

I just love how hard those haters on the first page have been exposed. Proving their lack of IQ.

[Thorn]

I think he deserved every All-D team he made before at least 2006.

After 2006 his defense started to slip as he took more (well, most) offensive responsibilities and his selections became more debatable. I think he deserved the 08-10 1st teams since he was still among the best man defenders and was above average to elite in help. He didn't need to make every offensive play as Pau arrived, Fisher returned from Utah and Odom was finally comfortable in his third man role and could focus more on playmaking instead of scoring.

He was still young/mobile enough to gamble as much as he did and not get burned unlike in 11-13 where guys like Danny Green busted his ball watching tendencies. I would put Tony Allen above him in 2011.

06/07 teams are a bit more debatable since Kobe had to conserve more energy on offense. Kobe made 1st teams over Billups/Prince in 06 and Kirk Hinrich/Kidd in 07, but since the question is how many 1st All-D teams did he steal from Wade specifically, my final answer to the OP is zero.

[LeGOAT]

all of them

[fpliii]

The Wolves are another team that puzzles me. Top 10 in offense and defense (11 now), and still not in the playoffs. I thought they would be better than their record.
They've been like historically bad in close games. They've played a lot better than their record on the season.

http://bkref.com/tiny/OxV99

10-20 in games decided by single digits. If they're just .500 in that regard, they're 36-26, tied with the Suns for the 8 seed going into tonight.
They did kind of underachieve up until the all star break, but it looks like they've put it all together now. They'll be scary in the playoffs.
Agreed.

[Laker4Lyfe]

Hey you how you doing? long time no see
Hey, I'm doing ok how have you been?

I come here and check the first page every now and again. It's usually nonsense so I just click back out.

[rhythmic]

Hey, I'm doing ok how have you been?

I come here and check the first page every now and again. It's usually nonsense so I just click back out.

:oldlol: Sad but true.

[gts]

Hey, I'm doing ok how have you been?

I come here and check the first page every now and again. It's usually nonsense so I just click back out. :lol

Good good glad to hear, still in LA?

I'm doing fine, nothing to complain about.

yeah mods are trying to curb the nonsense but still.. a ways to go

[Micku]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[T_L_P]

And this is why it's so puzzling to me why they would put Kobe over Tony Allen. In what way is Kobe a better defender than him? He isn't better on the eye test, statistically or advance metrics. Hell in 2011, the Lakers were better defensively without Kobe on plus/minus. And in 2012. That is amazing to me.


"The voters have been seduced by his remarkable athleticism and spectacular steals." - Phil Jackson

I'll take the word of Kobe's coach and mentor here...although the Kobe Stans won't, because it doesn't support their God.

[fpliii]

And this is why it's so puzzling to me why they would put Kobe over Tony Allen. In what way is Kobe a better defender than him? He isn't better on the eye test, statistically or advance metrics. Hell in 2011, the Lakers were better defensively without Kobe on plus/minus. And in 2012. That is amazing to me.
Realistically, I think superstars are just being graded on a different curve than specialists. Perhaps coaches (though they don't always vote for all-D and sometimes pass their ballots off to assistants, etc.) just try and go for guys they feel could dominate if they focussed entirely on defense (the "who would you want for one big possession" thing).

[The Iron Fist]

Believe net nerds over NBA coaches they said.

[Rooster]

:applause:

Best perimeter defender in the game.

Nope Ron Artest was better. Not only he was as good as on ball defender as anyone because of his quick hands, it was also hard to get the ball because he was very physical.

[Rooster]

Realistically, I think superstars are just being graded on a different curve than specialists. Perhaps coaches (though they don't always vote for all-D and sometimes pass their ballots off to assistants, etc.) just try and go for guys they feel could dominate if they focussed entirely on defense (the "who would you want for one big possession" thing).

Kobe is known for shutting down his opponent if he plays honest defense but for the past few years, he was roaming too much in the passing lanes and often get burned when he gambles.

[BlackVVaves]

Nope Ron Artest was better. Not only he was as good as on ball defender as anyone because of his quick hands, it was also hard to get the ball because he was very physical.

Prime Artest was one of my favorite players to watch. I personally preferred him defensively than Bowen because of his diverse approach to relinquishing an opponent on offense. Artest could defend you on the perimeter, in the post, use his body, use his hands, use his feet. He was calculating and intimidating.

If he had just allowed offense to come to him instead of forcing the issue as often as he did, he could have been significantly better.

[chazzy]

And this is why it's so puzzling to me why they would put Kobe over Tony Allen. In what way is Kobe a better defender than him? He isn't better on the eye test, statistically or advance metrics. Hell in 2011, the Lakers were better defensively without Kobe on plus/minus. And in 2012. That is amazing to me.
Probably because of minutes - only played 20 in 2011. And then he was first team the next two years

[K.Koscik]

Realistically, Dwade has missed a ton of games (including in his prime).

Dwayne Wade was a better weakside and help defender imo but Kobe was a better man on man defender, especially in the perimeter.

In his prime, Wade was one the most exciting and effective shot blockers under 6'8" in the league. He was effective man to man and his speed made him a pest in the passing lanes. No other guard has seemed to block as many shots as him in recent memory.

Pause right there though and realize I said Shooting guard. Yeah Wade's defense looks prettier, but he's not a big man so his inside defense doesn't outweigh Kobe's perimeter defense. If I need 24 seconds of the best defense I can find, I'm taking Kobe until 2011.

Guards play on the outside thus raising their value of defense on the perimeter. Inside defense is very important in the NBA, but the way any 5 man defense operates successfully begins with what happens on the perimeter. If a PG, SG, or SF is getting a look at the rim, that usually means the initial perimeter defender has failed (thats why a rim defender is the last line of defense not the defense).

If you say Wade is the better defender than you are saying that if you were building a team, you choose the shooting guard more capable of defending the rim (i feel like Wade's gambling and Bryant's 48 minute effort in the later years negate themselves). I disagree, I say that Bryant is more valuable to me on defense as the player more likely to be the more effective first line of defense.

Those voters aren't as dumb as some of you think. Everyone looks to argue but where are the fans who watch the game to gain understanding of it and enjoy the others who have done the same? I could argue every Wade and Bryant defense thread but after you get to a certain understanding its like :hammerhead: :hammerhead: :banghead:

I love Wade as a 2 way guard and I think he's historically awesome but there's a reason that Kobe is considered top ten by just about anyone who has any credibility with basketball, while those arguing so hard against him have no credibility other than "Well, only an idiot would suggest otherwise"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iou1L27tyZI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWwNxTdEQkM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1oXvRCXnds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inz64Zdk0zo

[Rooster]

Prime Artest was one of my favorite players to watch. I personally preferred him defensively than Bowen because of his diverse approach to relinquishing an opponent on offense. Artest could defend you on the perimeter, in the post, use his body, use his hands, use his feet. He was calculating and intimidating.

If he had just allowed offense to come to him instead of forcing the issue as often as he did, he could have been significantly better.

Well you just have to take the good from the bad and that 3 that he made on game 7 against the Celtics was in forever lore in the Purple and Gold history. I mean he could have played like Bobby Jones with good shot selection and still be overlooked and underappreciated.

[JohnFreeman]

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1165607/wadeb.gif
http://media.giphy.com/media/zuxpsprNKHcty/giphy.gif
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/7255/dwynewadeblockscarmeloa.gif
http://www.imgnook.com/xxc1oo.gif

[Fire Colangelo]

Wade wasn't exactly a lockdown defender either. GOAT guard shot blocked, but he always gambled too much on defense for my liking

[coin24]

Poor Jameer still upset he got shat all over in his last thread:oldlol:

What future lakers player are you scrubs going to draft this time??

[Lakers_Kobe_Fan]

Title.

how many sperms your mother stole from me?

u 18 yet?

[riseagainst]

how many people in here can legally buy cigarettes?

:oldlol:

[riseagainst]

Realistically, Dwade has missed a ton of games (including in his prime).

Dwayne Wade was a better weakside and help defender imo but Kobe was a better man on man defender, especially in the perimeter.

In his prime, Wade was one the most exciting and effective shot blockers under 6'8" in the league. He was effective man to man and his speed made him a pest in the passing lanes. No other guard has seemed to block as many shots as him in recent memory.

Pause right there though and realize I said Shooting guard. Yeah Wade's defense looks prettier, but he's not a big man so his inside defense doesn't outweigh Kobe's perimeter defense. If I need 24 seconds of the best defense I can find, I'm taking Kobe until 2011.

Guards play on the outside thus raising their value of defense on the perimeter. Inside defense is very important in the NBA, but the way any 5 man defense operates successfully begins with what happens on the perimeter. If a PG, SG, or SF is getting a look at the rim, that usually means the initial perimeter defender has failed (thats why a rim defender is the last line of defense not the defense).

If you say Wade is the better defender than you are saying that if you were building a team, you choose the shooting guard more capable of defending the rim (i feel like Wade's gambling and Bryant's 48 minute effort in the later years negate themselves). I disagree, I say that Bryant is more valuable to me on defense as the player more likely to be the more effective first line of defense.

Those voters aren't as dumb as some of you think. Everyone looks to argue but where are the fans who watch the game to gain understanding of it and enjoy the others who have done the same? I could argue every Wade and Bryant defense thread but after you get to a certain understanding its like :hammerhead: :hammerhead: :banghead:

I love Wade as a 2 way guard and I think he's historically awesome but there's a reason that Kobe is considered top ten by just about anyone who has any credibility with basketball, while those arguing so hard against him have no credibility other than "Well, only an idiot would suggest otherwise"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iou1L27tyZI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWwNxTdEQkM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1oXvRCXnds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inz64Zdk0zo


:applause: