Horace Grant: "Penny's career could have been as good as Kobe's."

[Railgun]

Obviously he had a major injutry but
What was his ceiling?
I was reading a Magic article describing what the Magic could have been if Shaq stayed etc etc and this comment from Horace Grant intrigued me:

Horace discusses this in the podcast, when Bill asks if he (Horace) thinks that, barring injuries, Penny’s career could have been as good as Kobe’s. Horace says:
“Without a doubt.”
“I mean, you consider he’s 6’7″/6’8″, can see the floor, 3-pointers, drive to the basket, assists, you name it.”
Is that a farfetched claim? I feel like Shaq and him could have definitely won multiple titles. Discuss.

[Railgun]

Here is the article:
http://www.magicbasketball.net/2014/03/13/a-magic-dynasty-and-what-could-have-been/

[HylianNightmare]

he is right up there in terms of what if scenarios

[Railgun]

he is right up there in terms of what if scenarios
did u see prime penny hylian?

[Clyde]

did u see prime penny hylian?

I did. It's why I'm a magic fan.

Could have done something real special.....Damn knee injuries

[edrick]

Penny was awesome before the injuries, but who knows.

[mattvNJ]

got some legit 96' penny's. Guy was stud, a lot of what if players. Injuries are a bitch. At least these guys get paid handsomely a majority of the times before their downfall.

[Johnny Jones]

:roll: It's so obvious bro. You're a Jameer alt.

[HOoopCityJones]

Penny is the first Brandon Roy.

Cept his Shaq never even left the gate.

[QuebecBaller]

Even Lil Penny got injured :(

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK88MQWsYj8

(btw, the shoes in this commercial was the best I ever had)

[Railgun]

:roll: It's so obvious bro. You're a Jameer alt.
No shit.

[Railgun]

Penny is the first Brandon Roy.

Cept his Shaq never even left the gate.
Penny was much better than Roy tho.

I did. It's why I'm a magic fan.

Could have done something real special.....Damn knee injuries
All I have is highlight videos at this point sadly.

[NumberSix]

Penny was better than Kobe. Just got ended too soon.

[edrick]

Penny is the first Brandon Roy.

Cept his Shaq never even left the gate.

I don't know if Penny would have been better than Kobe, but certainly better than Brandon Roy. :biggums:

[HOoopCityJones]

Penny was better than Kobe. Just got ended too soon.

You don't believe this shit on your worse Troll days. :roll:

[HOoopCityJones]

Penny was much better than Roy tho.

All I have is highlight videos at this point sadly.

Didn't mean it as a literal comparison as far as game, just career wise.

[HylianNightmare]

did u see prime penny hylian?
a little too young to appreciate what i was seeing but i caught some peeny back in the day. his combination of size and skill would make people drool even today:bowdown:

[HOoopCityJones]

Best Penny was CHiPs Penny.

[Railgun]

Penny was better than Kobe. Just got ended too soon.
Interesting. What makes you say that?

[CelticBaller]

Penny was a 6'7 PG who could score and rebound on daily basis, of course he was going to be better than Kobe

[Railgun]

a little too young to appreciate what i was seeing but i caught some peeny back in the day. his combination of size and skill would make people drool even today:bowdown:
6'7 and an amazing passer. Good at pretty much every aspect :applause:

[HOoopCityJones]

Just didn't have the knees to succeed.

[Railgun]

Measurements are similar to.... Exum. Interesting.......

[theoneneo]

Penny was better than Kobe. Just got ended too soon.

Better than Kobe? :lol

Here's Kobe bussin dat ass at 19 years old

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qrrIQ423mc

[CelticBaller]

Better than Kobe? :lol

Here's Kobe bussin dat ass at 19 years old

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qrrIQ423mc
Good for him destroying a shell of a player

[JohnFreeman]

Penny was incredible

[Railgun]

Better than Kobe? :lol

Here's Kobe bussin dat ass at 19 years old

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qrrIQ423mc
:facepalm

[AintNoSunshine]

Did shaq leave first or Penny's injury came first?

[CelticBaller]

Did shaq leave first or Penny's injury came first?
Shaq left first, he didn't play for much of the season and if I remember correctly Penny had the team on top of the east without Shaquille

[Railgun]

Did shaq leave first or Penny's injury came first?
Shaq left first

[Railgun]

Shaq left first, he didn't play for much of the season and if I remember correctly Penny had the team on top of the east without Shaquille
Nope. Just barely made the playoffs.

[CelticBaller]

Nope. Just barely made the playoffs.
No I've meant the season before Shaq left. Penny wasn't healthy for much of the season after shaq left and they would've probably had a top seed again

In case you haven't noticed I'm a huge Penny guy

[TheWatcher2]

what wasn't penny good at :(

[Railgun]

No I've meant the season before Shaq left. Penny wasn't healthy for much of the season after shaq left and they would've probably had a top seed again

In case you haven't noticed I'm a huge Penny guy
Didn't notice actually :D

[CelticBaller]

Yeah didn't get to watch his prime, started being a fan after his last magic season instead because one day I bought his sneaker and my dad introduced me to prime penny.

[TheMarkMadsen]

he had top 10 GOAT talent, had the potential, had everything.

dude was a 1st team all nba player his 2nd year and was an all nba 1st team player when Shaq was making all nba 3rd team

Penny was a great player

[edrick]

he had top 10 GOAT talent, had the potential, had everything.

dude was a 1st team all nba player his 2nd year and was an all nba 1st team player when Shaq was making all nba 3rd team

Penny was a great player

Yep, Penny was the main reason I became interested in watching basketball.

[bdreason]

I was a huge Penny fan... even bought a Orlando Magic Starter jacket (those were cool back in the days) because of Penny. He definitely had the game to be an all-time great. Him and Grant Hill are probably the biggest "What If" players of my generation.

[houston]

Penny was soft as hell. Penny was a good second option player thats it.

[WWRWestbrookDo?]

Penny was awesome to watch

[Levity]

was always a huge penny fan.

the kid in me remembers he had some of the sickest shoes in the 90's. you can still see a lot of older ballers wearing them today.

[Pointguard]

Kyrie reminds me a whole lot of Penny. Obviously Penny is taller, had hops, and a better passer.

[Pointguard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsbWXxr0ge8

[eliteballer]

Penny was soft as hell. Penny was a good second option player thats it.

:coleman:

Crap post. He lit up the Bulls and Riley's Knicks in the playoffs.

[BlackVVaves]

Penny was soft as hell. Penny was a good second option player thats it.

Go home bro, you're drunk.

[pauk]

Not sure but let me tell you that Penny was absolutely amazing, i think he had perhaps even better footwork than Kobe, maybe the best footwork ive seen, so quick, smooth & unpredictable with all type of counter moves in the post and he had better ballhandling & passing aswell. Overall his mindset was more similar to Lebron offensively though (pass-first scorer) so i mean he wouldnt go ham scoring/shooting like crazy, he played with prime Shaq and was a PG so.... but i really think he was(i mean could) be that type of player/scorer aswell like Kobe eventually or at least play around somewhere at that Kobe level but with different gamestyle.. lots of "unreached" potential.

[HOoopCityJones]

Penny was far from Soft.

CHiPs doe.

[tmacattack33]

Penny's prime or peak is one of the best most of us under 35 have seen. It was a little below Kobe level, but obviously may have improved upon his leak if he didnt get hurt.

All we do know for sure is that penny's peak was better than someone who's peak sometimes gets more credit than penny's for some reason and that is grant hill. It just seems like more ppl knew about grant hill than penny. Maybe penny was too much in shaqs shadows or something. Sort of Derrick rose vs Westbrook and how rose gets so much more attention than Westbrook

[BlackVVaves]

Not sure but let me tell you that Penny was absolutely amazing, i think he had perhaps even better footwork than Kobe, maybe the best footwork ive seen, so quick, smooth & unpredictable with all type of counter moves in the post and he had better ballhandling & passing aswell. Overall his mindset was more similar to Lebron offensively though (pass-first scorer) so i mean he wouldnt go ham scoring/shooting like crazy, he played with prime Shaq and was a PG so.... but i really think he was(i mean could) be that type of player/scorer aswell like Kobe eventually or at least play around somewhere at that Kobe level but with different gamestyle.. lots of "unreached" potential.

Penny had tremendous footwork for his age, and was much more natural in the post than Kobe when he initially entered the league.

But, Kobe post 2008 had better footwork in the post than pre-injury Penny, in my opinion anyway.

[absalom]

Penny was soft as hell. Penny was a good second option player thats it.

Did you see Penny in mid 90s? I cant remember the season but Penny carried the Magic into a winning record without Shaq, dispelling the notion that he was just a secondary option.

[JohnFreeman]

Penny and McGrady are both better if not injured.

[MichaelCorleone]

Penny and McGrady are both better if not injured.
This.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Butch McCrae aka Penny definitely had top ten GOAT caliber abilities, and potential. That's for sure. I think so did Grant Hill, and Tracy McGrady. Injuries suck, real bad. He had the best quard post game I've ever seen that wasn't MJ, or Kobe. Completely unique style too.

[Soundwave]

I dunno about as good as Kobe, but Penny was a really unique player, he was like a LeBron-Kobe hybrid. With the new rules I think he could've put up 24-25 ppg or so.

Incredible court vision, such a smooth game. I remember Pippen really had all types of trouble guarding him.

That 90s Magic squad was really fun to watch.

[97 bulls]

As far as impact, prime Penny had just as much as Kobe. They were on the same level

[97 bulls]

I dunno about as good as Kobe, but Penny was a really unique player, he was like a LeBron-Kobe hybrid. With the new rules I think he could've put up 24-25 ppg or so.

Incredible court vision, such a smooth game.I remember Pippen really had all types of trouble guarding him.

That 90s Magic squad was really fun to watch.
Lol. This is just not true bro. Why do you keep posting this? I mean he has had some great games but that doesn't mean anything.

And when it counted most (the playoffs) Pippen shut him down.

[Soundwave]

Lol. This is just not true bro. Why do you keep posting this? I mean he has had some great games but that doesn't mean anything.

And when it counted most (the playoffs) Pippen shut him down.

Relax dude, lol. I just recall Penny was one of the few players that Pippen sometimes had some issue with, but there's no shame in that ... Penny was pretty damn good.

[97 bulls]

Relax dude, lol. I just recall Penny was one of the few players that Pippen sometimes had some issue with him. there's no shame in that ... Penny was pretty damn good.
But that's just not true. I mean what are you basing this on? A few games? Why did Pippen shut him down in 96 during the playoffs?

[Bob Dole]

No, Kobe was easily a more impactful player than penny. Penny is one of the most overrated players of all time. Speak grant hills if you want to talk what ifs

[Pointguard]

Lol. This is just not true bro. Why do you keep posting this? I mean he has had some great games but that doesn't mean anything.

And when it counted most (the playoffs) Pippen shut him down.
No he didn't. Pippen went hard at him and Hardaway definitely outscored him. He might not have gotten his average but it was more than 20ppg.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Penny is one of the most overrated players of all time.
:biggums:

[Pointguard]

Pippen, Hill and Hardaway all used to play each other pretty much even. They didn't really get up for each other like Magic/Bird/Dominique/Worthy did. Hill and Hardaway had a more refined polished offensive game. And Hill's man to man defense was as good as Pippen's. Hardaway and Hill were better slashers. Pippen was a more consistent shooter.

Penny was smart, tall, athletic, creative and a superb passer. He didn't impose his will like Kobe did in his prime, he played a more heady game, and I wouldn't say he was as focused as Grant Hill was. He played a lot like Kyrie did last year, stylistically they are similar and even move alike. Kyrie is more of a dynamic move guy tho.

[97 bulls]

No he didn't. Pippen went hard at him and Hardaway definitely outscored him. He might not have gotten his average but it was more than 20ppg.
If youre referring to the 96, how? How did he give Pippen "problems" cuz he scored a bunch of garbage irrelevant points in a 38 point blow out? How do you.explain the other three games? What was his FG% during those games?

[Bob Dole]

Kobes the most overrated player of all time but if you think penny was on his level you're delusional.

[houston]

:coleman:

Crap post. He lit up the Bulls and Riley's Knicks in the playoffs.


Penny was soft man and wasn't mentally tough player. Penny just a very good player. Whats up with people overrating 90's players like that. 22,7 was just his peak numbers. Same with Grant Hill choking self lol.

[Rooster]

Butch McCrae aka Penny definitely had top ten GOAT caliber abilities, and potential. That's for sure. I think so did Grant Hill, and Tracy McGrady. Injuries suck, real bad. He had the best quard post game I've ever seen that wasn't MJ, or Kobe. Completely unique style too.

Yes his post game is like McHale but he likes to finished it with turnaround jumpshots. Kinda remind me of Chris Mihm doing those Duncan like up and unders only to brick it with awkward looking jumpshots (while Duncan usually finished them with layups and dunks.) With Penny it was smooth and sweet jumpshots.

I think Penny was overhyped though. People compare him to Magic in his first few years but he was more like a combo guard. I think Grant Hill was better. Without injury, skill wise its easy to say he could parallel Kobe career. But like Carter or TMac, I am not too sure if he has that Kobe's work ethic or strong mentality to rise over the occasion.

[Bob Dole]

Prime penny was arguably not better than prime Ray Allen and definitely not better than prime Vince carter. Don't see you homos over rating them. Go learn basketball.

[Black Mamba's B]

Penny is one of my favorite players, I had a reversible penny jersey back in the elementary days.. but to say he would have been better than kobe is a stretch. If there was 1 player I wished would have remained injury free for his career it would have been him

[Bob Dole]

Penny is one of my favorite players, I had a reversible penny jersey back in the elementary days.. but to say he would have been better than kobe is a stretch. If there was 1 player I wished would have remained injury free for his career it would have been him

I feel you but bro he wasn't that good. Would have easily rather seen chris webber, grant hill, or t Mac go injury free. They were all better players.

[Black Mamba's B]

I feel you but bro he wasn't that good. Would have easily rather seen chris webber, grant hill, or t Mac go injury free. They were all better players.
Webber in his prime Sac days was a monster!! It's a shame the injuries he accumulated

[JohnFreeman]

Webber in his prime Sac days was a monster!! It's a shame the injuries he accumulated
:cheers:

[miggyme1]

I feel you but bro he wasn't that good. Would have easily rather seen chris webber, grant hill, or t Mac go injury free. They were all better players.


u obviously didnt watch penny play then because he was that good. had no weaknesses in his game at all. did everything exceptionally well too,pass,score,run a team,explosive,defend. go watch some clips kid

[houston]

I think Penny was overhyped though. People compare him to Magic in his first few years but he was more like a combo guard. I think Grant Hill was better. Without injury, skill wise its easy to say he could parallel Kobe career. But like Carter or TMac, I am not too sure if he has that Kobe's work ethic or strong mentality to rise over the occasion.


exactly man :rockon:

[Rose'sACL]

Stop underrating kobe. even before injury, penny wasn't as good as post-2000 kobe.
He was a very good player but kobe is just better.

[Bob Dole]

u obviously didnt watch penny play then because he was that good. had no weaknesses in his game at all. did everything exceptionally well too,pass,score,run a team,explosive,defend. go watch some clips kid

No u didn't. Which one of those 3 did he have a better peak than?

Exactly. Not saying he wasn't a great player. I think some people just think he peaked like magic or Lebron which is crazy. He was 2 notches below that.

[tmacattack33]

Pippen, Hill and Hardaway all used to play each other pretty much even. They didn't really get up for each other like Magic/Bird/Dominique/Worthy did. Hill and Hardaway had a more refined polished offensive game. And Hill's man to man defense was as good as Pippen's. Hardaway and Hill were better slashers. Pippen was a more consistent shooter.

Penny was smart, tall, athletic, creative and a superb passer. He didn't impose his will like Kobe did in his prime, he played a more heady game, and I wouldn't say he was as focused as Grant Hill was. He played a lot like Kyrie did last year, stylistically they are similar and even move alike. Kyrie is more of a dynamic move guy tho.

No way.

Grant Hill's man to man defense was at its best during his "second life time" in the NBA on Phoenix from 2008-2010.

During his first lifetime in the 90's, it wasn't anything special.

And I think even he would tell you that.

[CelticBaller]

Stop underrating kobe. even before injury, penny wasn't as good as post-2000 kobe.
He was a very good player but kobe is just better.
Penny never reached his peak, or even got close to it.

He put up 20 ppg on 50% with 4 reb, 7 assist and 2 stl pg in his second season

[tmacattack33]

Penny never reached his peak, or even got close to it.

He put up 20 ppg on 50% with 4 reb, 7 assist and 2 stl pg in his second season

Word. Actually i think it was like 22 ppg on 56% FG.

And when Shaq was injured for 2 months, it was like 28 ppg on 50%.

[kshutts1]

I know all about Penny the offensive player.... but was he able to D up like young Kobe? Cuz honestly, all the top 10-15 players can light it up on O (except maybe Russell?), but what really separates them is their two-way ability.

Not sure Penny or McGrady ever had that lock-down ability. Could be wrong, though. And sure, maybe Kobe's D was a tad overrated, but he was light years ahead of the Penny and TMac I remember.

[tmacattack33]

I know all about Penny the offensive player.... but was he able to D up like young Kobe? Cuz honestly, all the top 10-15 players can light it up on O (except maybe Russell?), but what really separates them is their two-way ability.

Not sure Penny or McGrady ever had that lock-down ability. Could be wrong, though. And sure, maybe Kobe's D was a tad overrated, but he was light years ahead of the Penny and TMac I remember.

This is true. He was a good defender, but not great at all. I believe his defense was like a B minus whereas Kobe would get an A.

I think top 20 would have been where Penny would have landed. Slightly ahead of Wade or something like that.

[scm5]

by 25, before Penny's injury, his best season was:

96': 22ppg 4rpg 7apg 2spg

By age 25, Kobe had put up these seasons and won 3 titles:

01': 28.5ppg 6rpg 5apg 1.7spg
02': 25ppg, 5.5rpg, 5.5apg, 1.5spg
03': 30ppg, 7rpg, 6apg, 2.2spg

We pretty much saw what we're going to get from Penny by age 25. I can't think of any player that got significantly better after age 25, and it's clear Penny wasn't on Kobe's tier.

Check MJ, Magic, Kobe, Lebron ,Wade, AI, Clyde, Tmac... etc. None of them got significantly better after age 25.

People tend to overrate the hell out of players from the past and this is one of those cases.

[CelticBaller]

Please put up years in the league instead of age, when Kobe came in he was one of the youngest players in the league and by that age had more experience in the L :facepalm

oh and FG% are also appreciated

[scm5]

I feel you but bro he wasn't that good. Would have easily rather seen chris webber, grant hill, or t Mac go injury free. They were all better players.

Oh how I wish Tmac were injury free for his career. Loved his game.

[f0und]

id much rather have penny on my team than kobe. skill wise, they are about the same, with probably a slight edge to kobe. but IQ wise, penny blows him out of the water.

[Anfernee]

Penny was better than Kobe. Just got ended too soon.


he had top 10 GOAT talent, had the potential, had everything.

dude was a 1st team all nba player his 2nd year and was an all nba 1st team player when Shaq was making all nba 3rd team

Penny was a great player


Yep, Penny was the main reason I became interested in watching basketball.


I was a huge Penny fan... even bought a Orlando Magic Starter jacket (those were cool back in the days) because of Penny. He definitely had the game to be an all-time great. Him and Grant Hill are probably the biggest "What If" players of my generation.


was always a huge penny fan.

the kid in me remembers he had some of the sickest shoes in the 90's. you can still see a lot of older ballers wearing them today.


:applause: :rockon: :cheers:


:coleman:

Crap post. He lit up the Bulls and Riley's Knicks in the playoffs.


Yeah he put up two 40+ points in games 3 and 4 to tie that series. They came close to upsetting the Heat in game 5.


Not sure but let me tell you that Penny was absolutely amazing, i think he had perhaps even better footwork than Kobe, maybe the best footwork ive seen, so quick, smooth & unpredictable with all type of counter moves in the post and he had better ballhandling & passing aswell. Overall his mindset was more similar to Lebron offensively though (pass-first scorer) so i mean he wouldnt go ham scoring/shooting like crazy, he played with prime Shaq and was a PG so.... but i really think he was(i mean could) be that type of player/scorer aswell like Kobe eventually or at least play around somewhere at that Kobe level but with different gamestyle.. lots of "unreached" potential.

I agree. The difficult part of comparing him and Kobe is Penny never made it to his prime without injury, so we got to see how good Kobe became, and only Penny's early years.


Penny and McGrady are both better if not injured.

Yup

[The Iron Fist]

The basketball world was incredibly excited when Penny came into the NBA. Its sad what happened to him but he was amazing . I still have his jersey.

[AlphaWolf24]

Better than Kobe? :lol

Here's Kobe bussin dat ass at 19 years old

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qrrIQ423mc


Kobe was even getting hacked left and right by ol' Rollins from the hand check era and still bustin dey azz...

Penny at best could have had a Wade or Ray Allen type legacy....

no where near Kobe....shouldn't even be in the same sentence.

[Bandito]

Could be. He was that good. He couldve been that opponent MJ needed to be on his level.

[eliteballer]

Lol. This is just not true bro. Why do you keep posting this? I mean he has had some great games but that doesn't mean anything.

And when it counted most (the playoffs) Pippen shut him down.

Wow you're lying. Go look Game 2 of the 96 series where he shot 70%. he had 26 ppg on 47% shooting for the series.

[Rose'sACL]

Please put up years in the league instead of age, when Kobe came in he was one of the youngest players in the league and by that age had more experience in the L :facepalm

oh and FG% are also appreciated
he played in college. kobe didn't. Age matters a lot. people get mentally tougher as they age.
I don't like the lakers or kobe but i don't hate him either and i can tell you that penny would not have been as good as kobe.
Penny was pretty good but i think top 15-20 would have been his max ceiling if everything went right for him while kobe is top 10.

[CelticBaller]

he played in college. kobe didn't. Age matters a lot. people get mentally tougher as they age.
I don't like the lakers or kobe but i don't hate him either and i can tell you that penny would not have been as good as kobe.
Penny was pretty good but i think top 15-20 would have been his max ceiling if everything went right for him while kobe is top 10.
again, penny put up those stats in his second year, and shot a better percentage than any of Kobe's year.

not liking the Lakers doesn't validate your opinion as better

[SamuraiSWISH]

I am not suggesting Penny would EVER be better than Kobe from 2001 - 2010. While Penny was the superior playmaker, passer, and efficient shooter.

Kobe's volume scoring, and defense with the ability to still facilitate clearly separate him from Penny. As well as his durability, and long prime due to refined skill set.

Penny had great fundamentals, and skill set though. He would have aged gracefully if not for the crippling injuries.

I definitely think he had top ten potential. Players reach their peak between the ages of 27 - 30. Penny never got to that point unfortunately. He would've been a 25 ppg, 8 apg type guy at his peak.

[Rose'sACL]

again, penny put up those stats in his second year, and shot a better percentage than any of Kobe's year.

not liking the Lakers doesn't validate your opinion as better
he also scored way lesser. if he was scoring a couple point lesser than post-2000 Kobe then you would have a point.
Age is always the right way to judge players.

[DMAVS41]

Nah.

Kobe had a 29/6/5 prime for 10 years.

Penny, isn't approaching that kind of production...

[97 bulls]

Wow you're lying. Go look Game 2 of the 96 series where he shot 70%. he had 26 ppg on 47% shooting for the series.
What you're referring to is game 1. But as I previously mentioned, that 38 pt performance he had in game one was fools gold because they lost by almost 40. Those were meaningless points. Garbage buckets simply because Pippen let up on him because the Bulls had the win easily in hand.

Heres his results for the other three games

Game 2 6/15 for 40%
Game 3 8/24 for 33%
Game 4 9/22 for 42%

He hardly gave Pippen any trouble. The facts are the facts. I've informed Soundwave of this many times. And for some reason "cough agenda cough", he continues to say that he gave Pippen fits.

[97 bulls]

Nah.

Kobe had a 29/6/5 prime for 10 years.

Penny, isn't approaching that kind of production...
Hardaway was a PG. His role was to facilitate. Bryant had literally no more impact than Him. I remember when Hardaway was getting compared to Magic Johnson.

[BlackVVaves]

Hardaway was a PG. His role was to facilitate. Bryant had literally no more impact than Him. I remember when Hardaway was getting compared to Magic Johnson.

You're saying that pre-prime Penny had the same impact as peak Kobe? Or even 2001 Kobe?

Y'all be doing the most. Penny definitely had top 10-15 potential, but Penny, thanks to injury, never approached Kobe's level of dominance in his peak or prime. Insinuating so is asinine.

It's one thing to say the man had potential to be as good as Kobe. It's another to say he actively had the same impact as Kobe :wtf:

[riseagainst]

Hardaway was a PG. His role was to facilitate. Bryant had literally no more impact than Him. I remember when Hardaway was getting compared to Magic Johnson.

:roll:

[Shabba Ranks]

Orlando is one of the most diverse and most beautiful city in the south, i realy believed penny (barring injuries)would've stayed aka durant and make the magic into something special.

[97 bulls]

You're saying that pre-prime Penny had the same impact as peak Kobe? Or even 2001 Kobe?

Y'all be doing the most. Penny definitely had top 10-15 potential, but Penny, thanks to injury, never approached Kobe's level of dominance in his peak or prime. Insinuating so is asinine.

It's one thing to say the man had potential to be as good as Kobe. It's another to say he actively had the same impact as Kobe :wtf:
Was he or was he not being compared to Magic Johnson? Again, we need to stop comparing players based on preferences and start acknowledging their impact on the court. Prime Hardaway was considered a poor man's Magic Johnson and prime Kobe is considered a poor man's Michael Jordan.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Prime Hardaway was considered a poor man's Magic Johnson and prime Kobe is considered a poor man's Michael Jordan.
Nice analogy. If Penny never got hurt, there would've been a similar gap in terms of development or passing of the torch. Penny from '94 - 2000 would've been better, but in 2001 Kobe would've clearly surpassed him the way MJ did Magic in '89 or '90. Kobe is a superior defender than Penny, much like MJ was leaps and bounds better than Magic in that regard.

[BlackVVaves]

Was he or was he not being compared to Magic Johnson? Again, we need to stop comparing players based on preferences and start acknowledging their impact on the court. Prime Hardaway was considered a poor man's Magic Johnson and prime Kobe is considered a poor man's Michael Jordan.

What does his comparison have to do with anything?

You said he had as much of an impact on the game than Kobe had. So, you are saying that the best we saw of Penny was as impactful on the court as the best we saw of Kobe. That's ridiculous.

And who is speaking on preference? Magic was my favorite player growing up, and I rather a facilitator that can score than a scorer that can't facilitate. That doesn't give me authority to make shit up. Penny in his early 20s had as much of an impact than peak Kobe?

Yeah. Okay.

[DMAVS41]

Hardaway was a PG. His role was to facilitate. Bryant had literally no more impact than Him. I remember when Hardaway was getting compared to Magic Johnson.

What the **** are you talking about?

Peak Kobe is simply way better than Penny ever was as a player. Could Penny have improved and become even better and challenged for a top 10 spot all time? Maybe, but to say he was as good as Kobe ever was is a ****ing joke.

And I disagree with the above also, I don't think Penny had top 15 all time potential. I think he had top 30 all time potential...but I have no way to prove that...neither do you...so it's simply speculation on close to no evidence.

For example, Grant Hill had a better chance at challenging the top 10 all time than Penny did in my opinion. Hill was something like a 22/8/7 55% TS great defensive player for the first 6 years of his career. The year before his injury he was at 26/7/5 57% TS...that to me is the guy that had legit Kobe level potential.

[BlackVVaves]

What the **** are you talking about?

Peak Kobe is simply way better than Penny ever was as a player. Could Penny have improved and become even better and challenged for a top 10 spot all time? Maybe, but to say he was as good as Kobe ever was is a ****ing joke.

And I disagree with the above also, I don't think Penny had top 15 all time potential. I think he had top 30 all time potential...but I have no way to prove that...neither do you...so it's simply speculation on close to no evidence.

For example, Grant Hill had a better chance at challenging the top 10 all time than Penny did in my opinion.

The guy is on bath salts. By his avi, I'm going to assume he's making a effort (whether subconsciously or not) to discredit Kobe, because Jordan is the apple of his eye.

It's one thing to talk about potential. But this guy is delusional.

[CelticBaller]

nobody argues with DMAVS, the dude needs a straight jacket

[STATUTORY]

:roll: @ his reasoning, I guess any 6ft7 or 8 player could have been kobe

[SamuraiSWISH]

nobody argues with DMAVS, the dude needs a straight jacket
DMAVS or '97bulls?

[riseagainst]

nobody argues with DMAVS, the dude needs a straight jacket

strait*

[97 bulls]

What does his comparison have to do with anything?

You said he had as much of an impact on the game than Kobe had. So, you are saying that the best we saw of Penny was as impactful on the court as the best we saw of Kobe. That's ridiculous.

And who is speaking on preference? Magic was my favorite player growing up, and I rather a facilitator that can score than a scorer that can't facilitate. That doesn't give me authority to make shit up. Penny in his early 20s had as much of an impact than peak Kobe?

Yeah. Okay.
No offense. Because I understand your point. I just always saw Bryant as a player that was successful due to his being on the best team in the league. Meaning he could go out and shoot inefficiently and his team still win because they were just better than the competitors. Similar to what we saw from Michael Jordan in the 96 Finals. The Bulls won because they were far and away the better team. So much better that their two best scorers in Jordan and Pippen could have inefficient offensive games and the Bulls still dominate.

Thats what I mean by impact. By 96, Hardaway was easily a top 5 player. Right with Jordan, Olajuwan, Pippen, Malone etc. Who really was Bryant competing with in the mid 00s? Steve Nash?

I just dont see why Bryant gets the credit because he scored 35 pts. All the while needing 28 shots to get those points. Not saying that was always the case mind you, but that was the norm. Not to mention he broke the offense, took bad shots, etc. I mean theres a reason why Jackson wanted him traded and called him uncoachable.

[Shabba Ranks]

No offense. Because I understand your point. I just always saw Bryant as a player that was successful due to his being on the best team in the league. Meaning he could go out and shoot inefficiently and his team still win because they were just better than the competitors. Similar to what we saw from Michael Jordan in the 96 Finals. The Bulls won because they were far and away the better team. So much better that their two best scorers in Jordan and Pippen could have inefficient offensive games and the Bulls still dominate.

Thats what I mean by impact. By 96, Hardaway was easily a top 5 player. Right with Jordan, Olajuwan, Pippen, Malone etc. Who really was Bryant competing with in the mid 00s? Steve Nash?

I just dont see why Bryant gets the credit because he scored 35 pts. All the while needing 28 shots to get those points. Not saying that was always the case mind you, but that was the norm. Not to mention he broke the offense, took bad shots, etc. I mean theres a reason why Jackson wanted him traded and called him uncoachable.


You come across looking like bish yo, only bishes type long ass sentences

[97 bulls]

The guy is on bath salts. By his avi, I'm going to assume he's making a effort (whether subconsciously or not) to discredit Kobe, because Jordan is the apple of his eye.

It's one thing to talk about potential. But this guy is delusional.
Lol I in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM NEED TO DISCREDIT KOBE BRYANT TO DEFENSE ND JORDANS LEGACY.

[CelticBaller]

strait*
mobile :confusedshrug:

[juju151111]

Was he or was he not being compared to Magic Johnson? Again, we need to stop comparing players based on preferences and start acknowledging their impact on the court. Prime Hardaway was considered a poor man's Magic Johnson and prime Kobe is considered a poor man's Michael Jordan.
You always make the most rediculous comparisons. Kobe from 01-10 is a superior player then Penny at 25.

[juju151111]

No offense. Because I understand your point. I just always saw Bryant as a player that was successful due to his being on the best team in the league. Meaning he could go out and shoot inefficiently and his team still win because they were just better than the competitors. Similar to what we saw from Michael Jordan in the 96 Finals. The Bulls won because they were far and away the better team. So much better that their two best scorers in Jordan and Pippen could have inefficient offensive games and the Bulls still dominate.

Thats what I mean by impact. By 96, Hardaway was easily a top 5 player. Right with Jordan, Olajuwan, Pippen, Malone etc. Who really was Bryant competing with in the mid 00s? Steve Nash?

I just dont see why Bryant gets the credit because he scored 35 pts. All the while needing 28 shots to get those points. Not saying that was always the case mind you, but that was the norm. Not to mention he broke the offense, took bad shots, etc. I mean theres a reason why Jackson wanted him traded and called him uncoachable.
Kobe isn't inefficient either. Look at his efg% and TS%. Mj played and scored good in the first 3 games of the 96 finals and they went up 3-0. Nobody in history has ever come back from that . It was already over when Mj relaxed and had a cold spell. Hmm Kobe had Shaq,Duncan, Nash, Tmac, etc....

[DMAVS41]

nobody argues with DMAVS, the dude needs a straight jacket

I don't understand this post.

[97 bulls]

Kobe isn't inefficient either. Look at his efg% and TS%. Mj played and scored good in the first 3 games of the 96 finals and they went up 3-0. Nobody in history has ever come back from that . It was already over when Mj relaxed and had a cold spell. Hmm Kobe had Shaq,Duncan, Nash, Tmac, etc....
Your right about Jordan in 96.

Bryant is inefficient. That TS stuff is BS. Ive routinely watched Kobe Bryant come down and go 1-5 and jack up bad shot after bad shot. Let's not try to alter history here.

[97 bulls]

You always make the most rediculous comparisons. Kobe from 01-10 is a superior player then Penny at 25.
Well. I disagree. Too bad Hardaway missed out on his prime and wasnt able to spend his career with the best teams in the league and then have the daunting task of facing the greatest team ever.

[PsychoBe]

Well. I disagree. Too bad Hardaway missed out on his prime and wasnt able to spend his career with the best teams in the league and then have the daunting task of facing the greatest team ever.

far too many what-if's and speculatory nonsense. do you think that penny is as capable a defender as kobe who was the team's top 1 perimeter defender during the first three peat? do you think penny would be capable of averaging 30+/5/5 vs the spurs and the kings in the western conference playoffs? do you think penny had the offensive arsenal to score 81 points in one game?

too much speculation, stop dealing with what-ifs.

the fact remains that kobe bean bryant was pound for pound the better player and it almost isn't close.

[juju151111]

Your right about Jordan in 96.

Bryant is inefficient. That TS stuff is BS. Ive routinely watched Kobe Bryant come down and go 1-5 and jack up bad shot after bad shot. Let's not try to alter history here.
Nobody altering history. Kobe isn't inefficient. TS% PPS shows he isn't. Iverson is someone who you can claim is inefficient. You say you disagree, but your reasoning makes no sense. Kobe played superior to Penny which shows in stats and eye test. I say Penny is better then pre 01 Kobe and maybe 05 Kobe.

[riseagainst]

Your right about Jordan in 96.

Bryant is inefficient. That TS stuff is BS. Ive routinely watched Kobe Bryant come down and go 1-5 and jack up bad shot after bad shot. Let's not try to alter history here.

confirmation bias.

[oh the horror]

This isn't too crazy.


Do some here even remember Penny when he was balling? Dude was insane.

[97 bulls]

far too many what-if's and speculatory nonsense. do you think that penny is as capable a defender as kobe who was the team's top 1 perimeter defender during the first three peat? do you think penny would be capable of averaging 30+/5/5 vs the spurs and the kings in the western conference playoffs? do you think penny had the offensive arsenal to score 81 points in one game?

too much speculation, stop dealing with what-ifs.

the fact remains that kobe bean bryant was pound for pound the better player and it almost isn't close.
As far as their respective careers, Hardaway isn't worthy of holding Bryants jock strap. But Juju referred to Hardway at 25. I feel he was just as good.

And allow me to answer your other questions. No because Hardaway never did. But Hardaway was more consistent and played his style at just as high a level as Bryant. Hardway was steak and potatoes every night. Bryant would be fillet mignon one night, and sour milk the next.

[juju151111]

As far as their respective careers, Hardaway isn't worthy of holding Bryants jock strap. But Juju referred to Hardway at 25. I feel he was just as good.
No he wasn't just has good at 25. I think he would if gotten great something like a 25-6-6 player, but Kobe was better. Kobe has too many seasons surpassing his 97 season. He performed at a higher level when he had Shaq too. Look at Kobe seasons with Shaq. It's a hard thing to compare because we didn't really see his prime, but players normally have near peak seasons around 25.

[97 bulls]

No he wasn't just has good at 25. I think he would if gotten great something like a 25-6-6 player, but Kobe was better. Kobe has too many seasons surpassing his 97 season. He performed at a higher level when he had Shaq too. Look at Kobe seasons with Shaq. It's a hard thing to compare because we didn't really see his prime, but players normally have near peak seasons around 25.
How about this. Statistically, Hardaway doesn't hold a candle to Bryant. Is that what you're looking for? If so, were in agreement. Where we lose touch is what happend on the court. Sure Kobe would drop 30 on 42 percent shooting. But it wouldn't be within the flow of the offense.

Please answer this question. I believe in 2001, Bryant was avg 30/7/6. Jackson wanted him traded. Why?

[Kblaze8855]

Id say 95-97 or so...that Penny...swap him with Kobe in any season...I doubt the team wins much less if at all. Im not sure about in the playoffs. Im not sure he wins all the rings.

The teams wouldnt lose much if anything on their records. Penny was a difference maker. And non of Kobes teams that were good needed him there to at least be....decent. And none of his middling teams did anything of note.

Penny could lead a bad team to 42 wins and lose in the first round. He could take the Lakers with Pau and company to great records.

Winning all the rings is where it gets murky. Kobe had some "Get out of my way..." moments Pennys style doesnt suggest hed pull off.

[riseagainst]

How about this. Statistically, Hardaway doesn't hold a candle to Bryant. Is that what you're looking for? If so, were in agreement. Where we lose touch is what happend on the court. Sure Kobe would drop 30 on 42 percent shooting. But it wouldn't be within the flow of the offense.

Please answer this question. I believe in 2001, Bryant was avg 30/7/6. Jackson wanted him traded. Why?

out of Kobe's 507 30+ point games, he shot less than 42% for 86 of them. and 256 of them were 50+%.

:coleman:

[juju151111]

How about this. Statistically, Hardaway doesn't hold a candle to Bryant. Is that what you're looking for? If so, were in agreement. Where we lose touch is what happend on the court. Sure Kobe would drop 30 on 42 percent shooting. But it wouldn't be within the flow of the offense.

Please answer this question. I believe in 2001, Bryant was avg 30/7/6. Jackson wanted him traded. Why?
What are you talking about. Kobe shoots around 45-6% for his career. Phil wanted him traded because he was going nut trying to prove he was better then Shaq, but Kobe knew that Shit wasn't flying in the playoffs and played great. Kobe rarly shoots 42% and Kobe efficiency rating is high. Wtf are you on?

[Take Your Lumps]

This isn't too crazy.


Do some here even remember Penny when he was balling? Dude was insane.

Penny ****ing Hardaway...doesn't get more "what if" than him. Such a shame.

I love this move he had to get open for a jumpshot. It was like a reverse spin + step back...so smooth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1vefSacsik#t=78 (starts at 1:19)

I remember this game vividly, Voshon Lenard got reamed all game lol (RIP to his ankles @ 4:40)

[NBASTATMAN]

Prime Penny was a great player but not on Kobe's level... Thread over...:rockon:

[magic chiongson]

grant hill > penny hardaway

orlando only had 3 players who were playing like they should in that houston finals: him, horace grant, and shaq.

[97 bulls]

What are you talking about. Kobe shoots around 45-6% for his career. Phil wanted him traded because he was going nut trying to prove he was better then Shaq, but Kobe knew that Shit wasn't flying in the playoffs and played great. Kobe rarly shoots 42% and Kobe efficiency rating is high. Wtf are you on?
Phil wanted him traded because he was "uncoachable". That was Jackson's word verbatim.

[riseagainst]

Phil wanted him traded because he was "uncoachable". That was Jackson's word verbatim.

because he wanted to proof himself to be the man over Shaq, hence why he was breaking their system and shotjocking.

If he was playing with the system and still shot 42% or less, Phil wouldnt say that.....

It was the process that made Phil say that, not the end result of FG%.

[juju151111]

Phil wanted him traded because he was "uncoachable". That was Jackson's word verbatim.
He came back from retirement and won a chip. Kobe was also different in the 2nd half of that year. Go watch the 01 championship videos. I think Phil was talking more about how he left in 04 st the height of the team dysfunction. He wasn't that uncoachable since Phil came back and won two more chips with him has the leader.

[32jazz]

Obviously he had a major injutry but
What was his ceiling?
I was reading a Magic article describing what the Magic could have been if Shaq stayed etc etc and this comment from Horace Grant intrigued me:

Is that a farfetched claim? I feel like Shaq and him could have definitely won multiple titles. Discuss.


I would have bet more on T-Mac than Penny in the 'what if' scenarios between the two. Penny as a PG was a different type player/different mentality.

Skill wise T-Mac more than Penny.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

grant hill > penny hardaway

TMac as well. Not TMac > Penny (although, yes, TMac > Penny), but another what if player. Between this, Nick Anderson choking, and always losing your franchise centers, must be tough be a Magic fan.

[97 bulls]

because he wanted to proof himself to be the man over Shaq, hence why he was breaking their system and shotjocking.

If he was playing with the system and still shot 42% or less, Phil wouldnt say that.....

It was the process that made Phil say that, not the end result of FG%.
So sabotage is ok? You realize that what he did is no different than other popular traitors, Benedict Arnold, Judas Iscariot, Satan. Hardly something to be proud of.

[97 bulls]

He came back from retirement and won a chip. Kobe was also different in the 2nd half of that year. Go watch the 01 championship videos. I think Phil was talking more about how he left in 04 st the height of the team dysfunction. He wasn't that uncoachable since Phil came back and won two more chips with him has the leader.
Phil wanted him traded in 2001.

[riseagainst]

Phil wanted him traded in 2001.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1900031

"It was not the first time Jackson requested the team trade Bryant. He sought to trade him to the Phoenix Suns for Jason Kidd and Shawn Marion in the 1999-00 season."

:eek:

[Jameerthefear]

Bump.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Bump.

you just posted in another thread on your alt

bro.. :facepalm

[Fire Colangelo]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1900031

"It was not the first time Jackson requested the team trade Bryant. He sought to trade him to the Phoenix Suns for Jason Kidd and Shawn Marion in the 1999-00 season."

:eek:

Oh shit lol, I actually think the Lakers would be pretty beastly with Kidd, Marion and Shaq. Like more beastly than Kobe and Shaq