Why is Dr.J never mentioned along with some all time greats?

[sportsfan76]

Seems like when everyone is talking about the greatest NBA players his name never seems to get mentioned and he was able to lead his team to the Finals 4 times and win one ring.

So what is it about Doc that makes him not part of the discussion when discussing some of the greats of the 1980's like bird, magic, isiah, worthy?

[Akrazotile]

Older players are generally only glorified for stats or titles. Too few people around here were actually watching the game at the time he was playing. If nothing particularly sticks out on his "resume" people don't give a shit.


For instance in 20 years people who never watched this generation will have Kobe ranked higher than Dirk etc. and they'll just bleet "rings" even tho Dirk was definitely a more valuable player than Kobe throughout his career. If you weren't there to see it, you need something tangible like "rings" to hold on to.

[moe94]

Older players are generally only glorified for stats or titles. Too few people around here were actually watching the game at the time he was playing. If nothing particularly sticks out on his "resume" people don't give a shit.


For instance in 20 years people who never watched this generation will have Kobe ranked higher than Dirk etc. and they'll just bleet "rings" even tho Dirk was definitely a more valuable player than Kobe throughout his career. If you weren't there to see it, you need something tangible like "rings" to hold on to.

Kobe has Dirk beat in almost everything. It goes beyond rings. I mean, what case does Dirk even have outside your obvious hatred of Kobe? That's not a case, either.

[ArbitraryWater]

He is. He's just not Top 20.

Oh, and, Dirk > Kobe. Wouldn't even think twice about it...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

For instance in 20 years people who never watched this generation will have Kobe ranked higher than Dirk etc. and they'll just bleet "rings" even tho Dirk was definitely a more valuable player than Kobe throughout his career. If you weren't there to see it, you need something tangible like "rings" to hold on to.

http://www.chicagonow.com/lists-that-actually-matter/files/2013/02/tumblr_m68q8xJtMn1rzd1v6o1_400.gif

[sportsfan76]

He is. He's just not Top 20.

Oh, and, Dirk > Kobe. Wouldn't even think twice about it...



Why is he not top 20?

[ArbitraryWater]

Why is he not top 20?

Because I won't put him above any of the other Top 20 Guys like Barkley/Malone/Robinson... wait, just checked my Top 100 Ranking, I got Julius 21st, so yeah.

[sportsfan76]

Because I won't put him above any of the other Top 20 Guys like Barkley/Malone/Robinson... wait, just checked my Top 100 Ranking, I got Julius 21th, so yeah.


I'm asking why?

[Akrazotile]

Kobe has Dirk beat in almost everything. It goes beyond rings. I mean, what case does Dirk even have outside your obvious hatred of Kobe? That's not a case, either.


The eye test brah. Dirk was simply a more effective player. Obviously that doesn't guarantee anything from a team perspective otherwise the MVP every year would win the championship.

Look at those threads where people bring up dream duos, one of the most common answers is Shaq + Dirk. You honestly think Dirk couldnt win a bunch of "rings" if he had been paired up with Shaq? You give Dirk a Gasol (mcHale) and a Bynum (with a good attitude) (Parish) and he would win tons of titles and go down as Larry Bird.

The problem is moronic fans can't understand anything but what is simple and directly in front of them. "Kobe has rings! Kobe is teh top 10 bc he has rings!" You're an ididot. Haven't we been over this?

People will claim Kobe is "better" because of his overall skillset. If that's the criteria then Melo is a top 15 player all time. Rings are a product of teams. And skillset means nothing compared to overall effectiveness. But again, Kobe is aesthetically pleasing, and is more "famous" due to his presence on the title winning Laker franchise. So people make up arbitrary criteria to force him into the Top 10. Idiots like yourself. There is no player in the top 20 who is a liability to his team as often as Kobe is. It's just a mindless cult of exaltation that keeps him ranked highly. Objectively he is EXTREMELY overvalued.

It's just a reality bro. You guys are claiming the sun revolves around the earth because you see it at one side of the sky in the morning and the other side at night. Your minds are primitive. You're sheep and fools.


I'm almost positive I've mentioned this before.

[Akrazotile]

Because I won't put him above any of the other Top 20 Guys like Barkley/Malone/Robinson... wait, just checked my Top 100 Ranking, I got Julius 21th, so yeah.



:lol

[LAZERUSS]

If you include a PEAK Dr. J's ABA seasons, he may have a case for Top-10.

[sportsfan76]

If you include a PEAK Dr. J's ABA seasons, he may have a case for Top-10.


Why not the NBA Dr.J?

[chosen_one6]

Because I won't put him above any of the other Top 20 Guys like Barkley/Malone/Robinson... wait, just checked my Top 100 Ranking, I got Julius 21th, so yeah.

Damn son, your speech impediment even shows on the internet? :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

Why not the NBA Dr.J?

Because the Guy never led a team to a title and only averaged 21 PPG in the Playoffs. If you include ABA then perhaps yes. Its close.

[LAZERUSS]

Why not the NBA Dr.J?

He certainly had a great NBA career, but it came in only 11 of his 16 professional seasons, and probably after his peak, as well. His NBA career had an MVP and a ring, but if you add in his five season ABA career, which included three straight MVPs and two more rings...well, again, he would certainly have justification for a top-10 career.

[sportsfan76]

Because the Guy never led a team to a title and only averaged 21 PPG in the Playoffs. If you include ABA then perhaps yes. Its close.


what about the 1983 title?

[ArbitraryWater]

Damn son, your speech impediment even shows on the internet? :oldlol:

Oops. Me stupido.. lol usually dont make those errors, I actually thought akroz was laughing at the fact I had him 21 just outside the top 20 :hammerhead: :lol

[ArbitraryWater]

what about the 1983 title?

What about it?

[sportsfan76]

What about it?


Didn't he lead the sixers to the finals 3 times in 4 years and won a title????


1980 Finals....loss
1982 Finals....loss
1983 Finals...won

[ArbitraryWater]

Didn't he lead the sixers to the finals 3 times in 4 years and won a title????


1980 Finals....loss
1982 Finals....loss
1983 Finals...won

Yes.. I said he never led them to a TITLE, still correct.

[RoseCity07]

Dirk is def better than Kobe career wise. Dirk dominated okc and the heat to win his championship. Kobe had star players in their prime doing heavy lifting.

[sportsfan76]

Yes.. I said he never led them to a TITLE, still correct.


They won the title in 1983:facepalm

[ArbitraryWater]

They won the title in 1983:facepalm

And Moses as the clear cut Leader :roll: :roll: :facepalm


This guy, only person on this planet to believe Dr.J > Moses in 1983 :oldlol:

dat lack of historical awareness

[sketchy]

And Moses as the clear cut Leader :roll: :roll: :facepalm


This guy, only person on this planet to believe Dr.J > Moses in 1983 :oldlol:

dat lack of historical awareness
^^
Moses definitely > Doc J in '83, making him the second option on his only NBA title team. This isn't to say he wasn't a great player, but he had no jumpshot, making him a non factor unless he was able to get to the rim. His best years were played in the no defense ABA (seriously, check out some of the guys who guarded him in his ABA title runs). I don't really have a definite ranking after top 10, but he's probably in my top 20 if I did though.

[miles berg]

Dirk definitely > Kobe. Imagine how many titles he would have had over the years with Shaq and Gasol inside he finally gets someone decent in Tyson Chandler and immediately wins.

I can only imagine how amazing Shaq/Dirk would have been.

[ArbitraryWater]

Dirk definitely > Kobe. Imagine how many titles he would have had over the years with Shaq and Gasol inside he finally gets someone decent in Tyson Chandler and immediately wins.

I can only imagine how amazing Shaq/Dirk would have been.

Dirk really only needs a solid rim protector and you got the Title. Its amazing how much easier it is to build around the guy. Also, he has played significantly better in the playoffs, through g7's, elimination games, closeout games, with the game on the line, etc.

[sketchy]

Dirk definitely > Kobe. Imagine how many titles he would have had over the years with Shaq and Gasol inside he finally gets someone decent in Tyson Chandler and immediately wins.

I can only imagine how amazing Shaq/Dirk would have been.
Remember that time when Shaq was gonna go to Dallas but instead ended up in Miami in the Lamar Odom trade? Ugh, that would've been so fun to see Shaq and Dirk together.

[chocolatethunder]

Well I'm old enough to have seen Doc play. I was born in '72 so when they won their title I watched basketball but no 11 year old is going to be able to give a good analyis someone's game (nor is an 18 year old either). Anyway, looking back I would say that he didn't have good handles and he was not a good shooter. He was electrifying and did stuff that not a lot of people had done. I don't get into the whole ranking thing because I think it's stupid but I would say he's one of the greats but even as a Sixer fan, in my mind he's a level below the very best of the best. I like to think of player in groups of peers. For example players x y and z are one on level and players d e and f are a level below them etc. trying to give concrete rankings to players just doesn't make sense to me because you have to say difinitively that one guy is better than another but it's not always so clear cut. So to me it makes more sense to talk about players as being on the same level of other players. I dunno, that's how I see it. Anyway, Doc was great and I think he is an all time great but to me he's just below the best of the best.

[SHAQisGOAT]

He is. He's just not Top 20.

Oh, and, Dirk > Kobe. Wouldn't even think twice about it...

http://mediaoutrage.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Julius-Erving21.jpg

So much stupidity in only two paragraphs :facepalm

[Dr.J4ever]

He certainly had a great NBA career, but it came in only 11 of his 16 professional seasons, and probably after his peak, as well. His NBA career had an MVP and a ring, but if you add in his five season ABA career, which included three straight MVPs and two more rings...well, again, he would certainly have justification for a top-10 career.
This.... And you HAVE to add it. As I have repeatedly said to anyone who will listen, the ABA dominated the NBA in the last 3 years before the merger(almost 70% clip)... Many writers of the time like the NYtimes Peter Vecsey have opined that during the early 70s, the top 5 teams yearly would have ABA teams on it.

In the 1st year after the merger, the Denver Nuggets were a game back of the NBA's best record. The Spurs won their division, and the All Star team had 10 ABA players on it. During the Finals, 5 of the 10 starters were former ABA players.

Really, the only thing keeping ABA stats being absorbed with NBA stats may be a grudge/financial/legal considerations with those former ABA St.louis franchise owners that continued to receive NBA TV money for a long time after the merger. I believe it was finally settled just 2 months ago.

Eventually, people in the league office will have to do the right thing and absorb ABA stats. So many great ABA players who never ended up reaching the merger have been cast off in history.

Plus, if you include Doc's ABA resume, Doc would have 6 Finals appearances, and 3 Titles.

Easily to 10-15..In my heart, Doc will always be top 10.

[houston]

he is.........Magic,Bird,Dr.J,Moses and Zeke were the top 5 players in the 80's

[DirkLegend41]

He is. He's just not Top 20.

Oh, and, Dirk > Kobe. Wouldn't even think twice about it...
As a big Dirk fan i'd say hell no.

[La Frescobaldi]

As a big Dirk fan i'd say hell no.
Yeah me too.

As far as OP, Erving was the face of the ABA all right but that was a second tier league until just the very last couple of seasons, and even THEN, only a couple of teams were NBA level.... No ABA team was going to the NBA Finals. That was never going to happen even in an opium den dream.
When the Doc showed up in Philly, he was awesome, but he struggled against collapsing defenses because his jumper was not reliable... and his defense was execrable those first few years. It's a measure of his greatness that he overcame his weakness in defense through hard work, and the early 80s Sixers squad was amazing.
Still, the Doctor, the Iceman, and guys like Issel & DT in Denver are always underrated because nobody ever saw them in their athletic glory

[Dr.J4ever]

Yeah me too.

As far as OP, Erving was the face of the ABA all right but that was a second tier league until just the very last couple of seasons, and even THEN, only a couple of teams were NBA level.... No ABA team was going to the NBA Finals. That was never going to happen even in an opium den dream.
When the Doc showed up in Philly, he was awesome, but he struggled against collapsing defenses because his jumper was not reliable... and his defense was execrable those first few years. It's a measure of his greatness that he overcame his weakness in defense through hard work, and the early 80s Sixers squad was amazing.
Still, the Doctor, the Iceman, and guys like Issel & DT in Denver are always underrated because nobody ever saw them in their athletic glory
Open your mind.

http://www.remembertheaba.com/abastatistics/abanbaexhibitions.html

As I mentioned, the ABA dominated the interleague games at an almost 70% clip in the last 3 years before the merger. The ABA won the overall matchup vs the NBA. Witnesses at the time said the games were "intense". Hey, if you are suppose to be the superior league, and you were losing 7 out of every 10 games played, you would think the NBA coaches would start telling their players to win the damn games more often.

I believe the NBA Champions right before the merger might have lost a best of seven to the ABA champs. In 1976, Doc's Nets might have beaten the Celtics. In 1975, the Kentucky Colonel's of 7'2 Artis Gilmore, Dan Issel, Dampier might have beaten the surprise NBA finalist Warriors of Barry.

Before that, the Pacers with Mcginnis were a top team, and another one of Doc's Nets were very good also.

It's not as clear cut as you would have it. Even Wikipedia documented the ABA-NBA rivalry, and many experts of the time commented on ABA teams being in the top 5 of basketball every year in the last few years before the merger.

The fact is the best players in the world were split into 2 leagues during the early 70s, and this is really undeniable.

Many NBA fans today have not really grasped what that really means

[La Frescobaldi]

Open your mind.

http://www.remembertheaba.com/abastatistics/abanbaexhibitions.html

As I mentioned, the ABA dominated the interleague games at an almost 70% clip in the last 3 years before the merger. The ABA won the overall matchup vs the NBA. Witnesses at the time said the games were "intense". Hey, if you are suppose to be the superior league, and you were losing 7 out of every 10 games played, you would think the NBA coaches would start telling their players to win the damn games more often.

I believe the NBA Champions right before the merger might have lost a best of seven to the ABA champs. In 1976, Doc's Nets might have beaten the Celtics. In 1975, the Kentucky Colonel's of 7'2 Artis Gilmore, Dan Issel, Dampier might have beaten the surprise NBA finalist Warriors of Barry.

Before that, the Pacers with Mcginnis were a top team, and another one of Doc's Nets were very good also.

It's not as clear cut as you would have it. Even Wikipedia documented the ABA-NBA rivalry, and many experts of the time commented on ABA teams being in the top 5 of basketball every year in the last few years before the merger.

The fact is the best players in the world were split into 2 leagues during the early 70s, and this is really undeniable.

Many NBA fans today have not really grasped what that really means

I watched 'em dude, almost the entire ABA era. It was never close. Nobody but media propagandists and those trying to promote basketball in general ever thought it. We've had this discussion before and you just flat didn't watch those days. Sure the ABA had great players but they were never deep, they never had the staying power to last in the NBA.