Who are the top 2-5 Players of All-Time?

[sammichoffate]

Assuming Jordan is #1.

[T_L_P]

2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Duncan
5. Bird/Shaq/Russell (undecided)

[Akrazotile]

Assuming Jordan is #1.


:rolleyes:

[Dr Hawk]

Kareem
Magic
Bird
Shaq/Duncan/Olajuwon

Dunno about Russell or Wilt

[inclinerator]

2. kareem
3. bill
4. magic
5. a wilt
5. b bird

[SexSymbol]

2.Jordan
3.Kareem
4.Bird
5.Magic
First is russell

[KingMillions]

Wilt
Russell
Kareem
Magic

[ArbitraryWater]

LeBron
LeBron
LeBron
Lebron

And you know I dislike the guy... hate him tbh #Objective

[sammichoffate]

No consensus among what I've seen regarding the order. Top 5 is also not set in stone. Good to see :cheers:

[russwest0]

2. Kareem
3. Bird
4. Russell
5. Wilt

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt, Russell, Magic, and KAJ all have cases over MJ. I don't have a problem with those that rank MJ as the greatest, but he certainly was not a clear-cut GOAT.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wilt, Russell, Magic, and KAJ all have cases over MJ. I don't have a problem with those that rank MJ as the greatest, but he certainly was not a clear-cut GOAT.
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Jennifer-Lawrence-ok-thumbs-up.gif

[Deuce Bigalow]

Russell
Magic
Bird
Kareem

[sammichoffate]

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Jennifer-Lawrence-ok-thumbs-up.gif:lol

[LAZERUSS]

Russell
Magic
Bird
Kareem

Of course, Wilt's TEAMs, which were generally pathetic, and that played even worse in the post-season were nine points away from reducing Russell's ring count from an 11-2 edge, down to a 7-6 margin. A Chamberlain with six rings would be a unanimous GOAT. Oh, and in their 10 seasons in the league together, Chamberlain held a 7-2 margin in First-Team All-NBA's.

As for KAJ, he didn't come close to dominating the NBA as much as Chamberlain did, and he played four years IN the Wilt-era. Furthermore, in their four seasons in the league together, Wilt and KAJ each won one ring, but Wilt held a 3-1 Finals edge. So, while they were in the league together, Chamberlain was clearly a greater "winner." On top of that, a peak/prime KAJ won exactly ONE ring, in a decade the last half of which, was arguably the weakest, in terms of title winners, in NBA history. It wasn't until he was paired up with the all-time GOAT winner (in terms of W-L%), Magic Johnson, that he would win five more rings. Interesting too, that when the two played together in those ten years, without Magic, KAJ's winning percentage was .604 (61-40), while Magic's winning percentage, without KAJ, was .750 ( 24-8, or even higher than his career winning percentage of .743.)

[Demitri98]

2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Bird

[Deuce Bigalow]

Of course, Wilt's TEAMs, which were generally pathetic, and that played even worse in the post-season were nine points away from reducing Russell's ring count from an 11-2 edge, down to a 7-6 margin. A Chamberlain with six rings would be a unanimous GOAT. Oh, and in their 10 seasons in the league together, Chamberlain held a 7-2 margin in First-Team All-NBA's.

As for KAJ, he didn't come close to dominating the NBA as much as Chamberlain did, and he played four years IN the Wilt-era. Furthermore, in their four seasons in the league together, Wilt and KAJ each won one ring, but Wilt held a 3-1 Finals edge. So, while they were in the league together, Chamberlain was clearly a greater "winner." On top of that, a peak/prime KAJ won exactly ONE ring, in a decade the last half of which, was arguably the weakest, in terms of title winners, in NBA history. It wasn't until he was paired up with the all-time GOAT winner (in terms of W-L%), Magic Johnson, that he would win five more rings. Interesting too, that when the two played together in those ten years, without Magic, KAJ's winning percentage was .604 (61-40), while Magic's winning percentage, without KAJ, was .750 ( 24-8, or even higher than his career winning percentage of .743.)
Boiled down:

Magic: 5
Bird: 3
Kareem: 6 (4 "elite" rings)
Kobe: 5
Shaq: 4
Duncan: 4
Lebron: 2
Hakeem: 2
Wilt: 2

[ArbitraryWater]

Boiled down:

Magic: 5
Bird: 3
Kareem: 6 (4 "elite" rings)
Kobe: 5
Shaq: 4
Duncan: 4
Lebron: 2
Hakeem: 2
Wilt: 2


http://static4.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/omg+_62d92e91f55d917d625f71162c3b37fd.jpg

BTW: If you go elite rings, might as well have Bird at 2, Kobe at 3, Magic at 4? Shaq at 3?

Btw, Wilt's 1972 one is a bit overblown. great defense & a 15 ppg average. The low amount of FGA skyrocketed his FG%

[LAZERUSS]

Boiled down:

Magic: 5
Bird: 3
Kareem: 6 (4 "elite" rings)
Kobe: 5
Shaq: 4
Duncan: 4
Lebron: 2
Hakeem: 2
Wilt: 2

For one area of criteria. Of course, Bird played with much better rosters his entire career, and only has one more ring, and was nowhere near as dominant in either the regular or post-season.

Or that Hakeem played on five teams that won between 50-58 games, and never played on a team that won 60+ (unlike Wilt, who played on FOUR, and two had records of 68-13 and 69-13), and in fact, couldn't get past the first round in eight of his 15 post-seasons.

Or that Shaq was swept six times in his post-season career, and nearly two more.

Or that KAJ essentially won ONE ring as the main man, and while you could argue 79-80 as another, he didn't even play in the title clinching win. And he was clearly a "third wheel" in his fifth title, and that his '88 Lakers won a title DESPITE his awful post-season (arguably the worst ever by a GOAT.)

Or that Kobe only won two as the main man, and was only brilliant in one (and against a horrible team in the Finals.) Or that he was simply awful in the majority of his Finals, and even worse in his last games of each of his playoff seasons.

Curious too, that you didn't include Russell, who has 11 rings (and again, was just dominated in every facet of the game by Chamberlain.) Russell, along with Magic, and Duncan, were the game's greatest "winners."

And finally, Wilt was the, by far, the most dominant player who has ever played the game. The RECORD BOOK is just plastered with his name.

[ArbitraryWater]

For one area of criteria. Of course, Bird played with much better rosters his entire career, and only has one more ring, and was nowhere near as dominant in either the regular or post-season.

Or that Hakeem played on five teams that won between 50-58 games, and never played on a team that won 60+ (unlike Wilt, who played on FOUR, and two had records of 68-13 and 69-13), and in fact, couldn't get past the first round in eight of his 15 post-seasons.

Or that Shaq was swept six times in his post-season career, and nearly two more.

Or that KAJ essentially won ONE ring as the main man, and while you could argue 79-80 as another, he didn't even play in the title clinching win. And he was clearly a "third wheel" in his fifth title, and that his '88 Lakers won a title DESPITE his awful post-season (arguably the worst ever by a GOAT.)

Or that Kobe only won two as the main man, and was only brilliant in one (and against a horrible team in the Finals.) Or that he was simply awful in the majority of his Finals, and even worse in his last games of each of his playoff seasons.

Curious too, that you didn't include Russell, who has 11 rings (and again, was just dominated in every facet of the game by Chamberlain.) Russell, along with Magic, and Duncan, were the game's greatest "winners."

And finally, Wilt was the, by far, the most dominant player who has ever played the game. The RECORD BOOK is just plastered with his name.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/78712/1800795-not_again.png

[Random_Guy]

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Jennifer-Lawrence-ok-thumbs-up.gif
:bowdown: :bowdown:

[Deuce Bigalow]

For one area of criteria. Of course, Bird played with much better rosters his entire career, and only has one more ring, and was nowhere near as dominant in either the regular or post-season.

Or that Hakeem played on five teams that won between 50-58 games, and never played on a team that won 60+ (unlike Wilt, who played on FOUR, and two had records of 68-13 and 69-13), and in fact, couldn't get past the first round in eight of his 15 post-seasons.

Or that Shaq was swept six times in his post-season career, and nearly two more.

Or that KAJ essentially won ONE ring as the main man, and while you could argue 79-80 as another, he didn't even play in the title clinching win. And he was clearly a "third wheel" in his fifth title, and that his '88 Lakers won a title DESPITE his awful post-season (arguably the worst ever by a GOAT.)

Or that Kobe only won two as the main man, and was only brilliant in one (and against a horrible team in the Finals.) Or that he was simply awful in the majority of his Finals, and even worse in his last games of each of his playoff seasons.

Curious too, that you didn't include Russell, who has 11 rings (and again, was just dominated in every facet of the game by Chamberlain.) Russell, along with Magic, and Duncan, were the game's greatest "winners."

And finally, Wilt was the, by far, the most dominant player who has ever played the game. The RECORD BOOK is just plastered with his name.
"Shaq swept 6 times"?

Shaq: 4
Wilt: 2

Did Bird ever play with the best player in the league for 2 years like Wilt did in '69 and '70?

Bird: 3
Wilt: 2

You want to talk about sidekick rings? Poor Chamberlain couldn't even sidekick his way to rings in '69 and '70.

"Records"? Keyword: regular season

[sketchy]

2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Bird
I have this but Bird and Magic flipped. :cheers:

[sketchy]

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/78712/1800795-not_again.png
Ugh, tell me about it. :banghead:

[Deuce Bigalow]

I just need to make a "boiled down" thread so we can end this.

[jzek]

#2 Russell
#3 KAJ
#4/#5 Magic/Bird (interchangeable)

[Milbuck]

2) Kareem
3) Carlo Arroyo
4) Russell
5) Bird

[LAZERUSS]

"Shaq swept 6 times"?

Shaq: 4
Wilt: 2

Did Bird ever play with the best player in the league for 2 years like Wilt did in '69 and '70?

Bird: 3
Wilt: 2

You want to talk about sidekick rings? Poor Chamberlain couldn't even sidekick his way to rings in '69 and '70.

"Records"? Keyword: regular season

In '69, Unseld won the MVP, and in '70 Reed won it. Wilt did not play with either.

And you are right about '69 and '70. Which just proves that it was a failed strategy. Not to mention that Chamberlain was clearly the best center on the floor in those two playoff runs, and the rest of the Lakers puked all over the floor in both.

And Wilt holds MUTLIPLE PLAYOFF records, as well. Not to mention that a "scoring" Chamberlain had post-seasons of 33 ppg, 35 ppg, 35 ppg and 37 ppg. Or that he also had playoff series of 37 ppg, 37 ppg, 39 ppg and 39 ppg. Or that he also had FOUR 50+ point games, achieved in his first 26 playoff games, three of which came in "must-win" games.

Or that in his first 67 playoff games, he AVERAGED 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, shot .515 (in leagues that shot .421), and probably blocked 8+ shost per game. You would be hard-pressed to find ONE GOAT player who had ONE post-season SERIES, or even ONE playoff GAME with that stat-line. Or that he crushed the likes of Russell and Thurmond in those seasons.

Or that a way-past his prime Wilt, on a surgically repaired knee, statistically outplayed a PEAK Kareem in '71 (and in fact, received a standing ovation as he left the floor in the last game of that series...and the game was played in Milwaukee.) Or that he dominated Kareem in the last four games of the '72 WCF's, holding a PEAK Kareem to an unfathomable .414 shooting in those four games, en route to a 4-2 series win.

Or that a Chamberlain was voted FMVP, at age 35, while his best teammate, West, shot .325 from the floor in that series.

Or the real simple fact that Wilt played in 29 post-season series, and was arguably the best player on the floor in the vast majority of them. Or that in those 29 series, he was thee best center on the floor in at least 25 of them, and arguably, in ALL of them.

[LAZERUSS]

I just need to make a "boiled down" thread so we can end this.

Yes, using rings as the only criteria?

Russell, and by a HUGE margin.

And yet, very few considered Russell a greater player than Wilt in their ten years in the league together, as evidenced by Wilt's 7-2 margin in First-Team All-NBAs and overwhelming MVPs in the mid-to-late 60's.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kareem
Magic
Kobe
Bird

[LAZERUSS]

http://static4.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/omg+_62d92e91f55d917d625f71162c3b37fd.jpg

BTW: If you go elite rings, might as well have Bird at 2, Kobe at 3, Magic at 4? Shaq at 3?

Btw, Wilt's 1972 one is a bit overblown. great defense & a 15 ppg average. The low amount of FGA skyrocketed his FG%

Chamberlain reduced KAJ, in his greatest season, down to an intimidated shot-jacker, who couldn't hit the Grand Canyon from the ledge in the '72 WCF's, and then won a FMVP by averaging 19 ppg, 23.2 rpg, 7.4 bpg, and shooting .600 from the field, while his "second banana" West, shot .325 in that series. BTW, while Chamberlain shot .563 from the field in that entire post-season, his teammates collectively shot .414 from the field. Just how in the hell did Wilt carry that team to a 12-3 record and a title? I would say his DEFENSE was vastly UNDER-RATED.

[SHAQisGOAT]

2. Kareem
3. Russell
4./5. Bird/Magic

[DMAVS41]

I currently go;

1. MJ
2. Russell
3. Magic
4. Duncan

[PsychoBe]

mj
magic
bird
kareem
kobe

[ArbitraryWater]

Chamberlain reduced KAJ, in his greatest season, down to an intimidated shot-jacker, who couldn't hit the Grand Canyon from the ledge in the '72 WCF's, and then won a FMVP by averaging 19 ppg, 23.2 rpg, 7.4 bpg, and shooting .600 from the field, while his "second banana" West, shot .325 in that series. BTW, while Chamberlain shot .563 from the field in that entire post-season, his teammates collectively shot .414 from the field. Just how in the hell did Wilt carry that team to a 12-3 record and a title? I would say his DEFENSE was vastly UNDER-RATED.

West wasnt 2nd best anymore you know that... You forget Goodrich.


Defense was underrated, Knicks shot 47% as team to Lakers 42% :eek:

[kamil]

Bird
Magic
Kareem
Russell
MJ

[Deuce Bigalow]

In '69, Unseld won the MVP, and in '70 Reed won it. Wilt did not play with either.

And you are right about '69 and '70. Which just proves that it was a failed strategy. Not to mention that Chamberlain was clearly the best center on the floor in those two playoff runs, and the rest of the Lakers puked all over the floor in both.

And Wilt holds MUTLIPLE PLAYOFF records, as well. Not to mention that a "scoring" Chamberlain had post-seasons of 33 ppg, 35 ppg, 35 ppg and 37 ppg. Or that he also had playoff series of 37 ppg, 37 ppg, 39 ppg and 39 ppg. Or that he also had FOUR 50+ point games, achieved in his first 26 playoff games, three of which came in "must-win" games.

Or that in his first 67 playoff games, he AVERAGED 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, shot .515 (in leagues that shot .421), and probably blocked 8+ shost per game. You would be hard-pressed to find ONE GOAT player who had ONE post-season SERIES, or even ONE playoff GAME with that stat-line. Or that he crushed the likes of Russell and Thurmond in those seasons.

Or that a way-past his prime Wilt, on a surgically repaired knee, statistically outplayed a PEAK Kareem in '71 (and in fact, received a standing ovation as he left the floor in the last game of that series...and the game was played in Milwaukee.) Or that he dominated Kareem in the last four games of the '72 WCF's, holding a PEAK Kareem to an unfathomable .414 shooting in those four games, en route to a 4-2 series win.

Or that a Chamberlain was voted FMVP, at age 35, while his best teammate, West, shot .325 from the floor in that series.

Or the real simple fact that Wilt played in 29 post-season series, and was arguably the best player on the floor in the vast majority of them. Or that in those 29 series, he was thee best center on the floor in at least 25 of them, and arguably, in ALL of them.
MVP =/= best player :facepalm

'69 and '70 Jerry West was the best player in the league and you know that's true. Wilt could NOT win as a sidekick to the best player in the league twice. Kobe did it three times.

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://static4.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/omg+_62d92e91f55d917d625f71162c3b37fd.jpg

BTW: If you go elite rings, might as well have Bird at 2, Kobe at 3, Magic at 4? Shaq at 3?

Btw, Wilt's 1972 one is a bit overblown. great defense & a 15 ppg average. The low amount of FGA skyrocketed his FG%
Bird would have 3, Kareem with 4, Kobe with 4 or 5, Shaq with 3 or 4, Magic with 5.

[LAZERUSS]

MVP =/= best player :facepalm

'69 and '70 Jerry West was the best player in the league and you know that's true. Wilt could NOT win as a sidekick to the best player in the league twice. Kobe did it three times.

West was NOT the best player in '69, either. Not even close. If you are going to argue against MVPs equaling the best player, Chamberlain was FAR more dominant than West was that season. Interesting too, that Unseld, Reed, and Russell all finished ahead of Wilt in the MVP balloting, and yet Chamberlain MURDERED all three in their H2H's that season. And only Unseld had a better team record, and even at that, they only went 3-3 against Wilt's Lakers. Meanwhile, while Chamberlain was slaughtering Reed, his Lakers went 5-1 against the Knicks, and while he was castrating Russell, his Lakers went 4-2 against the Celtics. Oh, and West missed 21 games that season (and the Lakers went 12-9 without him.)

And we do KNOW that, before Wilt's injury in 69-70, his new coach had asked HIM to become the focal point of the Laker offense (and NOT West.) In fact, when Chamberlain blew out his knee in the ninth game that season, he was LEADING the league in scoring, at 32.2 ppg (on a .579 FG%), while West was second at 30.8 ppg.

Furthermore, Wilt was arguably LA's best player in the '70 Finals, all while playing on ONE leg (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and a staggering .625 FG%.) West was their leading scorer, but it was WILT who carried them in their must-win game six, and Chamberlain was LA's ONLY player who played well in their game seven loss.

[chazzy]

Chamberlain reduced KAJ, in his greatest season, down to an intimidated shot-jacker, who couldn't hit the Grand Canyon from the ledge in the '72 WCF's
KAJ still outscored Wilt by 23ppg on better efficiency for the series. Did Kawhi outplay Lebron last finals?

[LAZERUSS]

KAJ still outscored Wilt by 23ppg on better efficiency for the series. Did Kawhi outplay Lebron last finals?

Kareem shot .414 in the last four games of that series (three of them losses, and one was a crushing blowout loss, and the other a Wilt-led come-from-behind win in the clinching game six.) Virtually EVERY written account at the time of that series credited Wilt with OUTPLAYING Kareem. Time Magazine hailed his play in that series, as a DECISIVE beatdown by Chamberlain.

It was not Wilt's job to score at that point in his career, and he only missed 20 shots the entire series. Meanwhile, KAJ missed 107, the vast majority coming in those last four games. Keep in mind that Kareem had shot .574 against the NBA in the regular season, and yet could only shoot .457 against an old Wilt (and again, only .414 in the last four pivotal games of that series.)

[ArbitraryWater]

KAJ still outscored Wilt by 23ppg on better efficiency for the series. Did Kawhi outplay Lebron last finals?

:roll: It's ABSURD to what idiotic lengths ljauber goes.... Kareem literally averaged 34 PPG supposed to Wilt's 11 PPG, and this guy is here acting like Wilt outplayed Kareem... pathetic.


His constant H2H Posts bother me, in fact, if we're being realistic, Kareem outplayed&owned him by far. 34 PPG >>>> 11 PPG. Showed him up.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Duncan
5. Bird/Shaq/Russell (undecided)
http://cdn.niketalk.com/2/2f/350x700px-LL-2ff5111e_michael-jordan-laughing.gif
http://cdn.niketalk.com/1/16/164d263f_ibxFWGla38dwbC.gif
Duncan over Wilt Shaq and Bird???

[SamuraiSWISH]

I only go by what I've seen:

2) LeBron
3) Shaq
4) Kobe
5) Hakeem
6) Duncan
7) Barkley
8) Malone
9) Garnett
10) Wade

[chazzy]

It was not Wilt's job to score at that point in his career, and he only missed 20 shots the entire series. Meanwhile, KAJ missed 107, the vast majority coming in those last four games. Keep in mind that Kareem had shot .574 against the NBA in the regular season, and yet could only shoot .457 against an old Wilt (and again, only .414 in the last four pivotal games of that series.)
Sounds a lot like a young Kawhi holding Lebron to .447 shooting when he averaged .565 against the rest of the NBA. Like Wilt, it's not his job to score so he scored less than Lebron, but he even out rebounded him as well.

[T_L_P]

http://cdn.niketalk.com/2/2f/350x700px-LL-2ff5111e_michael-jordan-laughing.gif
http://cdn.niketalk.com/1/16/164d263f_ibxFWGla38dwbC.gif
Duncan over Wilt Shaq and Bird???

I don't know about Wilt. It's impossible to say how dominant he'd be in today's game or whether he was something of a career loser (and I can't just say, "Well, he played against Russell and the Celtics" otherwise the same could be said for a lot of legends going up against a lot of teams.)

Bird played with a better squad than Duncan but he did also play in a tougher era. Therefore I say the two balance each other out. The difference is Bird played, what, 12 seasons? Duncan's longevity is what separates the two.

Shaq had a better peak and nicer stats, but what did it amount to? He won the same number of rings and Finals MVPs, but Duncan has stacked up more career achievements. Not to mention Shaq got to play with Penny and that Orlando squad, then peak Kobe ('01-'02 was the best version of Kobe because of defense), then peak Wade who was significantly better...say what you want about Popovich and the system, but it's not like Pop's done a great deal since Duncan's decline. I could only imagine how many more titles Duncan would have if he had anyone nearly as good as some of Shaq's teammates.

So yes, Duncan is number 4. He's done more with less than any other great player I can think of. He's the ultimate leader, and the ultimate teammate. No ego, no frills. Just basketball.

[ArbitraryWater]

I don't know about Wilt. It's impossible to say how dominant he'd be in today's game or whether he was something of a career loser (and I can't just say, "Well, he played against Russell and the Celtics" otherwise the same could be said for a lot of legends going up against a lot of teams.)

Bird played with a better squad than Duncan but he did also play in a tougher era. Therefore I say the two balance each other out. The difference is Bird played, what, 12 seasons? Duncan's longevity is what separates the two.

Shaq had a better peak and nicer stats, but what did it amount to? He won the same number of rings and Finals MVPs, but Duncan has stacked up more career achievements. Not to mention Shaq got to play with Penny and that Orlando squad, then peak Kobe ('01-'02 was the best version of Kobe because of defense), then peak Wade who was significantly better...say what you want about Popovich and the system, but it's not like Pop's done a great deal since Duncan's decline. I could only imagine how many more titles Duncan would have if he had anyone nearly as good as some of Shaq's teammates.

So yes, Duncan is number 4. He's done more with less than any other great player I can think of. He's the ultimate leader, and the ultimate teammate. No ego, no frills. Just basketball.

HOW is that impossible to say?? Why WOULDNT he be a great player today? And why cant you figure out if he was a career looser or not? :lol

And I do have Duncan pretty high, and over Bird too.

[T_L_P]

HOW is that impossible to say?? Why WOULDNT he be a great player today? And why cant you figure out if he was a career looser or not? :lol

And I do have Duncan pretty high, and over Bird too.

I haven't watched a lot of Wilt footage :confusedshrug:

I'm not going to play the what if game to judge players on my all-time list. The fact of the matter is Wilt put up the most dominant stats in NBA history but it only amounted to two titles.

And I can't say how dominant Wilt would have been because things would obviously have been much more different. There's no way he grabs 25 rebounds a game for an entire season. There's no way he can play 46-48 minutes per game, every single night.

[riseagainst]

lol @ Duncan in the top 5.

[T_L_P]

lol @ Duncan in the top 5.

Rings won as the man:

Russell (at least 7-8)
Jordan (6)
Mikan (5)
Duncan (4)
Magic (4)

Pretty good company.

Finals MVPs:

Jordan (6)
Magic (3)
Shaq (3)
Duncan (3)

Pretty good company.

Rings won without another All-NBA teammate:

Duncan (4)
Dirk (1)
Hakeem (1)
Jordan (1)

Pretty good company.

Duncan doesn't impress with stats or style, but he impacts the game as much as anyone. Not to mention he's up there with Russell as the greatest, most selfless teammate this league has ever seen.

You can talk about how great his teams were, but the formula for success in this league has always been two superstars. Kareem and Magic, Bird and McHale/Parish, Jordan and Pippen, Shaq and Kobe, LeBron and Wade. Who's Duncan had like that? A past-his-prime David Robinson and Tony Parker? Just look at Duncan's teams during the early '00s, his best years. Derek Anderson as a second option? TP scoring 14 points of 40% shooting on a championship team? Yeah, loaded.

[fpliii]

I don't keep a list, but my top 5 players in an all-time draft would be (in no particular order):

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Bill Russell

Not including current players.

[ArbitraryWater]

I haven't watched a lot of Wilt footage :confusedshrug:

I'm not going to play the what if game to judge players on my all-time list. The fact of the matter is Wilt put up the most dominant stats in NBA history but it only amounted to two titles.

And I can't say how dominant Wilt would have been because things would obviously have been much more different. There's no way he grabs 25 rebounds a game for an entire season. There's no way he can play 46-48 minutes per game, every single night.

So you need footage to tell you if he was a looser or not? The stats dont?

And "his dominat stats only amounted to 2 titles" LMFAO

Jordan's best scoring seasons only amounted to 1st round exits, what a bum...

yeah he wouldnt grab 25, go figure how many instead.. 15 at todays pace would still be great.

[ArbitraryWater]

I don't keep a list, but my top 5 players in an all-time draft would be (in no particular order):

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Bill Russell

Not including current players.

Why is that?

[Deuce Bigalow]

@jlauber Jerry West:

68-69
Season
26-4-7 47%fg

Playoffs
31-4-8 46%fg (#1 in scoring)

Finals
38-5-7 49%fg (FMVP, #1 in scoring and apg)

69-70
Season
31-5-8 50%fg (#1 in scoring)

Playoffs
31-4-8 47%fg (#1 in apg)

Finals
31-3-8 45%fg (#1 in scoring)

[fpliii]

Why is that?
LeBron's not done as an MVP level player, Duncan is still an all-time great defensive anchor by the numbers.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Duncan never led the league in anything - points, rebounding, blocks, fg%, ect

Duncan never was a dominant offensive player compared to the other GOATs

Duncan never made it to back to back finals when every top 10 GOAT has

Duncan lost to an 8th seed

Top 4? :yaohappy:

[Psileas]

Assuming Jordan is #1.

Well, don't. You'd better either ask our #2-5, period, or ask our #(whatever) assuming Jordan doesn't exist.

[T_L_P]

Duncan never led the league in anything - points, rebounding, blocks, fg%, ect

Duncan never was a dominant offensive player compared to the other GOATs

Duncan never made it to back to back finals when every top 10 GOAT has

Duncan lost to an 8th seed

Top 4? :yaohappy:

Was Russell ever a dominant offensive player compared to the other GOATs?

Did Bird ever repeat as a champion (as if such an arbitrary thing matters?)

Kobe quit on his team during a game 7. That's worse than losing to an 8th seed.

Shaq got knocked out of the first round a bunch of times.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Look at what Duncan's competition did...

Shaq was a 2x scoring champ and led the league in fg% a record 10 times. Had a dominant season of 30/14/4 w/ 3 blk on 57fg/58ts in 2000, where is a season from Duncan even close to that? 4 titles and 3 finals MVPs like Duncan, but Shaq's performances were obviously more dominant as he averaged 30/14/3 during the 3peat in the postseason.

Kobe was a 2x scoring champ, in 2006 he had the highest ppg for a season since '87 MJ at 35.4 ppg. 5 titles with a 25/6/5 playoff average in the 3peat and 30/6/6 in his last 2. Made 3 straight finals two times in his career while Duncan never even made one back to back. 2 finals MVPs, a record 11 all-nba first teams, and has over 30k points.

[T_L_P]

Look at what Duncan's competition did...

Shaq was a 2x scoring champ and led the league in fg% a record 10 times. Had a dominant season of 30/14/4 w/ 3 blk on 57fg/58ts in 2000, where is a season from Duncan even close to that? 4 titles and 3 finals MVPs like Duncan, but Shaq's performances were obviously more dominant as he averaged 30/14/3 during the 3peat in the postseason.

Kobe was a 2x scoring champ, in 2006 he had the highest ppg for a season since '87 MJ at 35.4 ppg. 5 titles with a 25/6/5 playoff average in the 3peat and 30/6/6 in his last 2. Made 3 straight finals two times in his career while Duncan never even made one back to back. 2 finals MVPs, a record 11 all-nba first teams, and has over 30k points.


And yet, the two of them had to join forces to either tie Duncan in titles or win one more.

Robinson had better stats than Duncan. So is he ahead of him as well?

The fact is Shaq won 4 titles, 3 of which as the best player on his team and another as the second best. Kobe is 3 and 2. Duncan is 4 and 0.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Was Russell ever a dominant offensive player compared to the other GOATs?

Did Bird ever repeat as a champion (as if such an arbitrary thing matters?)

Kobe quit on his team during a game 7. That's worse than losing to an 8th seed.

Shaq got knocked out of the first round a bunch of times.
Quiting a game 7 where you're team sucks and is facing the #2 seed is worse than becoming the 3rd team ever to lose to an 8th seed? Yeah, right.

Bird's Celtics made 4 straight NBA Finals, nobody has ever done that besides the '57-'66 Celtics, who guess was on there? BILL RUSSELL.

Shaq lost in the first round a bunch of times but at least he didn't to an 8th seed.

[ArbitraryWater]

And yet, the two of them had to join forces to either tie Duncan in titles or win one more.

Robinson had better stats than Duncan. So is he ahead of him as well?

The fact is Shaq won 4 titles, 3 of which as the best player on his team and another as the second best. Kobe is 3 and 2. Duncan is 4 and 0.


Bad argument. He sure as hell didnt have better stats come playoff time...

Kobe is 3 and 2 in what?

Also, basically your criteria consists of teams led to title thats it?

Not saying Deuce made the best case, he basically picked some arbitrary stuff up, but it did look more convincing than this.

And I got Shaq > Duncan, Duncan > Kobe.

[T_L_P]

Bad argument. He sure as hell didnt have better stats come playoff time...

Kobe is 3 and 2 in what?

Also, basically your criteria consists of teams led to title thats it?

Not saying Deuce made the best case, he basically picked some arbitrary stuff up, but it did look more convincing than this.

And I got Shaq > Duncan, Duncan > Kobe.

I'd say my list places a lot less weight on stats.

That is the main part of my criteria. I don't see why it wouldn't be. Championships are ultimately what matters most. :confusedshrug:

I have no problem with somebody taking Shaq over Duncan. It's preference when it comes to those two

[Deuce Bigalow]

I'd say my list places a lot less weight on stats.

That is the main part of my criteria. I don't see why it wouldn't be. Championships are ultimately what matters most. :confusedshrug:

I have no problem with somebody taking Shaq over Duncan. It's preference when it comes to those two
Boiled down:

Kobe: 5
Duncan: 4

[T_L_P]

Boiled down:

Kobe: 5
Duncan: 4

Boiled down:

Robert Horry: 7
Kobe: 5

What's with you anyway? One minute Wilt's the GOAT the next he's some scrub again. :oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Boiled down:

Robert Horry: 7
Kobe: 5

What's with you anyway? One minute Wilt's the GOAT the next he's some scrub again. :oldlol:
ALL NBA FIRST TEAMS
Kobe: 11
Horry: 0

Try again

[DMAVS41]

Boiled down:

Robert Horry: 7
Kobe: 5

What's with you anyway? One minute Wilt's the GOAT the next he's some scrub again. :oldlol:

If you make this shit argument...just use Havlicek instead of Horry...then it actually makes sense.

The Horry argument is incoherent...

Hondo: 8
Kobe: 5

[Milbuck]

Carlos Arroyo.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

MJ
Shaq
Bird
Russell

KAJ is 1st. High level basketball play from college (where he was the best player on the planet) spanning 20 elite years is worth more than MJs smaller run albeit higher peak.

[ArbitraryWater]

I'd say my list places a lot less weight on stats.

That is the main part of my criteria. I don't see why it wouldn't be. Championships are ultimately what matters most. :confusedshrug:

I have no problem with somebody taking Shaq over Duncan. It's preference when it comes to those two

Yes, but its still a TEAM SPORT. Individuals DONT WIN ON THEIR OWN.

And again, what do you mean by Kobe is 3 and 2?

[LAZERUSS]

MJ
Shaq
Bird
Russell

KAJ is 1st. High level basketball play from college (where he was the best player on the planet) spanning 20 elite years is worth more than MJs smaller run albeit higher peak.

Interesting...

so if KAJ is #1, where do you place Moses Malone, who ROUTINELY SHELLED Kareem in their 40 career H2H games. Moses was THE "Kareem-Killer."

[NumberSix]

In no particular order...

Shaq
LeBron
Jordan
Wilt
Bird

[Warfan]

Kareem
Russell
Magic
Wilt

[Akrazotile]

LOL deuce bungalow literally comparing players by "ring circumstance" without a single word spoken about how they actually PLAYED.


No wonder this retard is a kobe stan

[Rocketswin2013]

1. Jordan
2. Shaq
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. LeBron
6. Bird

[MichaelCorleone]

Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Bill Russell
Lebron James

[The-Legend-24]

Duncan never led the league in anything - points, rebounding, blocks, fg%, ect

Duncan never was a dominant offensive player compared to the other GOATs

Duncan never made it to back to back finals when every top 10 GOAT has

Duncan lost to an 8th seed

Top 4? :yaohappy:
:lebronamazed:

Duncan's rightful place is behind Kobe and Shaq.

[T_L_P]

:lebronamazed:

Duncan's rightful place is behind Kobe and Shaq.

Putting both of them ahead of Duncan kinda contradicts itself, because they had to team up with one another to win more than 50% of their rings.


And again, losing to an 8th seed is not nearly as bad as quitting on your team or winning a championship because of game-fixing. :confusedshrug:

He was 34 years old when he lost the an 8th seed. He literally never lost in the First Round before or after that, and he didn't need the level of help Shaq or Kobe did to win their titles.

[JohnFreeman]

Kareem
Bird
Magic
Shaq

[T_L_P]

Kareem
Bird
Magic
Shaq

I'm disappointed, John.

Is it because Shaq has some stock in Sac?

[JohnFreeman]

I'm disappointed, John.

Is it because Shaq has some stock in Sac?
Who would you put there? I suppose Duncan has a better case

[T_L_P]

Who would you put there? I suppose Duncan has a better case

Ha, I'm only playing. I do have Duncan ahead of Shaq but I have no problem with it being the other way around :cheers:

[JohnFreeman]

Ha, I'm only playing. I do have Duncan ahead of Shaq but I have no problem with it being the other way around :cheers:
It is a toss up between them, both so good.

[T_L_P]

It is a toss up between them, both so good.

It all comes down to preference. Do you take Shaq's dominance during his peak or do you take Duncan's sustained excellence?

I usually ask myself when I'm ranking players who would I want to start my franchise with. Therefore I take Duncan because you don't get all of the bullshit you get with Shaq :confusedshrug:

[JohnFreeman]

It all comes down to preference. Do you take Shaq's dominance during his peak or do you take Duncan's sustained excellence?

I usually ask myself when I'm ranking players who I would want to start my franchise with. Therefore I take Duncan because you don't get all of the bullshit with Shaq :confusedshrug:
Yeah I change to Duncan ahead of Shaq actually. Duncan never got fat

[WillC]

It's hard to justify not having Wilt in the top 5 all-time. Sure, it would be nice if he won a few more rings, but he was the centrepiece of two of the very greatest teams of all-time (the 33 consecutive win Lakers, and the 68-win Sixers that defeated the Celtics during their prime). Meanwhile, he holds more records than anyone.

Mine would be:

1 - Michael Jordan
2 - Bill Russell
3 - Wilt Chamberlain
4 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5 - Larry Bird (or Magic Johnson, they're really inseparable)

[Champ]

2. Bird
3. Magic
4. Kareem/Russell
5. Russell/Kareem

[HOoopCityJones]

Kobe.

[truhooper]

Lebron
KAJ
Magic
Shaq