Replace Russell with one of the centers listed, how many chips do the Celtics get?

[jongib369]

Starting the same year Russell did...Is Bill the only Center that could get them 11?


Wilt

Kareem

Shaq

Hakeem

Walton

Thurmond

Ewing

Robinson

Gilmore

Moses

Duncan


(Bill Russell is no longer in the league to anyone who wants to say "None, Russells team beats them"

[zoom17]

:facepalm What is with people fascination with "what if" scenarios.

[KobesFinger]

:facepalm What is with people fascination with "what if" scenarios.


Not enough LeBron?

[jongib369]

:facepalm What is with people fascination with "what if" scenarios.
Now I dont want to get all hypothetical on you...But what if people have different interests and are amused by different things? :OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[zoom17]

Now I dont want to get all hypothetical on you...But what if people have different interests and are amused by different things? :OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

This is like the 100th thread about Replace bill Russel with a certain player.

[jongib369]

This is like the 100th thread about Replace bill Russel with a certain player.

I think as much as some people underrate Russell here, others overrate him. Can anyone here with a straight face argue Russell was a more complete big man than Wilt, KAJ, Shaq or Hakeem??? Again, put Tim Duncan against the competition Bill faced and TimmyD would be sporting the same if not more jewelery.

SMH at those who think the overall talent pool in the 50's-60's is comparable to today. :facepalm

Made it because of that. Don't agree with it, but wanted to see what people thought other great centers could do given the cards Russell was dealt

[Akrazotile]

Any one of those guys put in Russells place would win at least 26 chips. FACT.

[MavsSuperFan]

Wilt, and Robinson would have won less because they historically have underperformed during pressure situations.

Walton would have won less, because of his inability to stay healthy for a career.

Gilmore, Thurmond, Ewing, Moses, would have won about the same 10-11 titles on those celtics.

Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem and Kareem would have won 13 titles with those celtic teams.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but wasnt that an era where teams were still using racial quotas to help fill a team? Eg. teams could have 2 black players (so they could room together, but couldnt have more, because they would be too black).

Red was the first guy, who was like, forget race, its only basketball, just get the best players possible. So the celtics were the only team that wasnt using race as an evaluation criteria when forming their team. Obviously if you judge only on talent, you will have a significant competitive advantage, over other teams that are forming teams based off irrelevant criteria.

The celtics were basically playing with an advantage.
Edit: Also this why i find red's championships less impressive than most.

Eg. a swimmer that uses those skin tight suits winning vs. swimmers in loose trunks.

[iamgine]

To get 11 rings, you need to reach your prime very early and be quite lucky as well. Injuries can easily hamper your chance, especially playing in Bill's era where recovery knowledge/tech was not up to today's. Certainly some if not most of these centers in their prime may be better than Bill but do they have both the longevity and the luck to do it? I'd say very small hope of that.

[fpliii]

Wilt, and Robinson would have won less because they historically have underperformed during pressure situations.

Walton would have won less, because of his inability to stay healthy for a career.

Gilmore, Thurmond, Ewing, Moses, would have won about the same 10-11 titles on those celtics.

Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem and Kareem would have won 13 titles with those celtic teams.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but wasnt that an era where teams were still using racial quotas to help fill a team? Eg. teams could have 2 black players (so they could room together, but couldnt have more, because they would be too black).

Red was the first guy, who was like, forget race, its only basketball, just get the best players possible. So the celtics were the only team that wasnt using race as an evaluation criteria when forming their team. Obviously if you judge only on talent, you will have a significant competitive advantage, over other teams that are forming teams based off irrelevant criteria.

The celtics were basically playing with an advantage.
:oldlol:

[jongib369]

:oldlol:
How many do you think they'd win? To narrow the Im really just interested to know about these players

Wilt

Kareem

Shaq

Hakeem

Thurmond

Robinson

Gilmore

Moses

Duncan

Personally think Wilt could match or top it....With kareem, and Hakeem coming close

[DonDadda59]

Starting the same year Russell did...Is Bill the only Center that could get them 11?


Wilt

Kareem

Shaq

Hakeem

Walton

Thurmond

Ewing

Robinson

Gilmore

Moses

Duncan


(Bill Russell is no longer in the league to anyone who wants to say "None, Russells team beats them"

Don't know enough about the bolded players to make judgment, but I honestly don't see how the Cs don't win at least as much as they did with Russell with the others listed. Everyone of those guys are great 2 way, all around players. So the Cs wouldn't miss anything in terms of rebounding, blocks, team defense, etc but they would gain infinitely better offensive players. Just having Shaq alone would free everyone up on the perimeter. Guys like Havlicek, Cousy, Jones, Heinsohn would be getting wide open looks while teams back then (as they did in the modern era) struggled feebly to contain a monster like Shaq inside. Look at what Shaq did in the playoffs/finals during his peak. Now imagine him not having to go through the grind of the usual playoffs (it took only 2 series wins for a ring for most of Russell's career). Playoff/Finals averages of 60 PPG (60%+)/ 35 RPG/ 8 APG aren't as ridiculous as they sound, especially considering Wilt put up 50 PPG/ 26 RPG over the course of an entire season under similar circumstances.

I honestly think some of those guys on those Celtics teams would not only win the championship every season comfortably, but they would set records in terms of wins, margin of victory, offensive & defensive efficiency, etc that would never be broken.

EDIT- This is all under the assumption that said players stay relatively healthy over the course of their careers. Otherwise a guy like Walton obviously doesn't replicate the same results for more than 2 or so seasons.

[IncarceratedBob]

People forget that the rim was lower during Russells era, imagine modern legends like Duncan, KG, Shaq playing on lower rims? It would be a massacre.

[TheMan]

:oldlol:
Great retort

KAJ >>> Russell

Deal with it

[Quickening]

Lol at making this type of thread about a guy no one actually watched on this forum bar 30 seconds highlights and the box score :lol

[pudman13]

Wilt, and Robinson would have won less because they historically have underperformed during pressure situations.

Walton would have won less, because of his inability to stay healthy for a career.

Gilmore, Thurmond, Ewing, Moses, would have won about the same 10-11 titles on those celtics.

Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem and Kareem would have won 13 titles with those celtic teams.


Seriously? They win as many titles with an underachiever like Thurmond?

One of the keys to the Celtics titles was their team play. I have a hard time imagining that they win with someone who dominates offensively like Chamberlain or even Kareem or Shaq.

Walton is the one player on this list who would have been best suited for those teams, except for the fact that he would only have been in one final, due to injury. Duncan also, maybe.

[fpliii]

How many do you think they'd win? To narrow the Im really just interested to know about these players

Wilt

Kareem

Shaq

Hakeem

Thurmond

Robinson

Gilmore

Moses

Duncan

Personally think Wilt could match or top it....With kareem, and Hakeem coming close
I think those three and Shaq all do well, probably a bunch of rings. The second you're put in that era, you lose all modern advantages since you're playing back then.

The first few years in particular (through the early 60s), they'd feast since the league wasn't fully integrated. Problem is all of four those players are low-post isolation players. Without shooters to space the floor (or the threat of the three), there's no reason not to collapse low and double or triple the big. Kareem had some range on his hook and Hakeem had a nice turnaround from far enough out, so they'd be fine. Fortunately for Shaq and Wilt, with Selvy, Sharman, Jones, and some others, you had to respect the jump shot on those Celtics teams. I think they probably don't do as well in the mid-late 60s, though.

EDIT: Duncan as well.

[fpliii]

Great retort

KAJ >>> Russell

Deal with it
I laid out the arguments in that thread. No need to repeat myself here as well, people can decide for themselves.

If you honestly believe Cap's ">>>" Russell, says a lot more about you than Russ or his supporters. It's always funny when people try to target him on this board, especially without sound reasoning.

There are great anti-Russell arguments to be made, if you do the research. The same immature, ignorant rubbish won't change anybody's mind.

"Deal with it."

[oarabbus]

People forget that the rim was lower during Russells era, imagine modern legends like Duncan, KG, Shaq playing on lower rims? It would be a massacre.

:biggums:

[Nash]

Javale McGee would have won 15

[TheReal Kendall]

People forget that the rim was lower during Russells era, imagine modern legends like Duncan, KG, Shaq playing on lower rims? It would be a massacre.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/triple.gif

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt, and Robinson would have won less because they historically have underperformed during pressure situations.

Walton would have won less, because of his inability to stay healthy for a career.

Gilmore, Thurmond, Ewing, Moses, would have won about the same 10-11 titles on those celtics.

Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem and Kareem would have won 13 titles with those celtic teams.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but wasnt that an era where teams were still using racial quotas to help fill a team? Eg. teams could have 2 black players (so they could room together, but couldnt have more, because they would be too black).

Red was the first guy, who was like, forget race, its only basketball, just get the best players possible. So the celtics were the only team that wasnt using race as an evaluation criteria when forming their team. Obviously if you judge only on talent, you will have a significant competitive advantage, over other teams that are forming teams based off irrelevant criteria.

The celtics were basically playing with an advantage.
Edit: Also this why i find red's championships less impressive than most.

Eg. a swimmer that uses those skin tight suits winning vs. swimmers in loose trunks.

Obviously there was absolutely no research involved in that comment about Wilt.

Here are the FACTS:


Had he actually done any real research into Wilt's post-season career, he would have found that Wilt averaged 27.0 ppg in his 35 "must-win" and/or clinching games. Meanwhile, his starting opposing centers averaged 14.5 ppg in those 35 games. He also outscored his opposing starting center in 29 of those 35 games, including a 19-0 edge in his first 19 games of those 35. Furthermore, in his 13 games which came in his "scoring" seasons (from 59-60 thru 65-66), Chamberlain averaged 37.3 ppg in those "do-or-die" or clinching games. And there were MANY games in which he just CRUSHED his opposing centers in those games (e.g. he outscored Kerr in one them, 53-7.)

Wilt had THREE of his four 50+ point post-season games, in these "elimination games", including two in "at the limit" games, and another against Russell in a "must-win" game. He also had games of 46-34 and 45-27 (and only 4 months removed from major knee surgery) in these types of games. In addition he had games of 39 and 38 in clinching wins.

In the known 19 games in which we have both Wilt's, and his starting opposing center's rebounding numbers, Chamberlain outrebounded them in 15 of them, and by an average margin of 26.1 rpg to 18.9 rpg. And, had we had all 35 of the totals, it would have been by a considerably larger margin. A conservative estimate would put Wilt with at least a 30-5 overall edge in those 35 games. He also had games, even against the likes of Russell, and in "must-win" situations, where he just MURDERED his opposing centers (e.g. he had one clinching game, against Russell, in which he outrebounded him by a 36-21 margin.)

And finally, in the known FG% games in which we have, Chamberlain not only shot an eye-popping .582 in those "do-or-die" games, but he held his opposing centers to a combined .413 FG%. BTW, he played against Kareem in two "clinching" games, and held Abdul-Jabbar to a combined .383 shooting in those two games (23-60), while Chamberlain shot .545 (18-33).

The bottom line, in the known games of the 35 that Wilt played in that involved a "must-win" or clincher, Wilt averaged 27 ppg, 26.1 rpg, and shot .582 (and the 27 ppg figure was known for all 35 of those games.)

And once again, Chamberlain played in 11 games which went to the series limit (nine game seven's, one game five of a best-of-five series, and one game three of a best-of-three series), and all he did was average 29.9 ppg (outscoring his opposing center by a 29.9 ppg to 9.8 ppg margin in the process), with 26.7 rpg, and on .581 shooting. Or he was an eye-lash away from averaging a 30-27 game, and on nearly .600 shooting, in those 11 "at the limit" games.


Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's TEAMs went 24-11 in those 35 games, too.

That was the same player that Simmons basically labeled a "loser", and a "choker", and who "shrunk" in his BIG games.

BTW, Chamberlain's badly outplayed his OPPOSING centers, including Russell and Thurmond, in the vast majority of his post-season H2H's.

If you want chokers, you pick KAJ, who absolutely puked all over the floor in SEVERAL of his post-season series, and was outplayed by an old Wilt in their two H2H series, and who was slaughtered by Moses in their two, or Hakeem, who couldn't get past the first round in over HALF of his post-season career.

As for OP...John Wooden said it best, had Wilt had Russell's roster, and Auerbach as a coach, and it would have been Wilt holding all of those rings.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Starting the same year Russell did...Is Bill the only Center that could get them 11?

These for sure:

Wilt
Kareem
Shaq
Hakeem
Ewing
D. Robinson
Moses
Duncan

[The-Legend-24]

DeAndre Jordan, Hibbert, Noah, Mcgee, and pretty much any center from today can win the same amount as Russell did.

[Yankstar]

Blake Griffin would of won 12-13.

[finchyyy]

The answer is not as much as Russell won.

[cltcfn2924]

How many do you think they'd win? To narrow the Im really just interested to know about these players

Wilt

Kareem

Shaq

Hakeem

Thurmond

Robinson

Gilmore

Moses

Duncan

Personally think Wilt could match or top it....With kareem, and Hakeem coming close


Nah, Wilt himself said he couldn't have done it because had to be the man.

[cltcfn2924]

Obviously there was absolutely no research involved in that comment about Wilt.

Here are the FACTS:



BTW, Chamberlain's badly outplayed his OPPOSING centers, including Russell and Thurmond, in the vast majority of his post-season H2H's.

If you want chokers, you pick KAJ, who absolutely puked all over the floor in SEVERAL of his post-season series, and was outplayed by an old Wilt in their two H2H series, and who was slaughtered by Moses in their two, or Hakeem, who couldn't get past the first round in over HALF of his post-season career.

As for OP...John Wooden said it best, had Wilt had Russell's roster, and Auerbach as a coach, and it would have been Wilt holding all of those rings.


You people never get it. Russell played into that. Make the game about Wilt, all about Wilt. He never involved anybody else. Go ahead and score 50, my other 4 guys will demolish yours'. How hard is that to grasp?

[Rocketswin2013]

Put a 22 year old Dwight Howard on those teams from start to finish and they don't miss a beat.

I legit think Serge Ibaka in his current form could keep that team afloat