NBA choking rating

[Deuce Bigalow]

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Karl Malone: 8 + (25.0-24.7) + (25.0-19.6) + (10.1-10.7) + (10.1-9.6) + (3.6-3.2) + (3.6-3.3) + (51.6-46.3) + (51.6-46.0) + (74.2-73.6) + (74.2-67.6) - 0 = 32.4

David Robinson: 6 + (21.1-18.1) + (21.1-13.5) + (10.6-10.6) + (10.6-9.4) + (2.5-2.3) + (2.5-1.5) + (51.8-47.9) + (51.8-49.5) + (73.6-70.8) + (73.6-69.2) - 2 = 30.4

Oscar Robertson: 3 + (25.7-22.2) + (25.7-16.3) + (7.5-6.7) + (7.5-4.2) + (9.5-8.9) + (9.5-8.7) + (48.5-46.0) + (48.5-47.3) + (83.8-85.5) + (83.8-80.4) - 1 = 25.8

James Harden: 1 + (18.0-16.6) + (18.0-12.4) + (4.0-5.0) + (4.0-4.8) + (3.9-3.7) + (3.9-3.6) + (44.5-42.1) + (44.5-37.5) + (84.9-84.5) + (84.9-79.2) - 0 = 22.2

Chris Bosh: 2 + (19.2-15.8) + (19.2-14.8) + (8.7-8.0) + (8.7-8.5) + (2.0-1.4) + (2.0-1.2) + (49.8-46.4) + (49.8-44.0) + (80.0-80.7) + (80.0-79.2) - 2 = 19.4

John Stockton: 7 + (13.1-13.4) + (13.1-12.3) + (2.7-3.3) + (2.7-3.3) + (10.5-10.1) + (10.5-8.8) + (51.5-47.3) + (51.5-50.0) + (82.6-81.0) + (82.6-81.1) - 0 = 17.2

Larry Bird: 7 + (24.3-23.8) + (24.3-23.1) + (10.0-10.3) + (10.0-11.6) + (6.3-6.5) + (6.3-6.0) + (49.6-47.2) + (49.6-45.6) + (88.6-89.0) + (88.6-87.2) - 3 = 11.3

Lebron James: 3 + (27.5-28.1) + (27.5-23.4) + (7.2-8.6) + (7.2-9.0) + (6.9-6.7) + (6.9-7.0) + (49.6-47.2) + (49.6-44.1) + (74.7-74.9) + (74.7-73.7) - 2 = 10.1

---------------------------------------------------------------

Basic formula: Finals losses + playoff ppg dropoff + finals ppg drop off - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 4 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) - 2 = 21.1

Oscar Robertson: 1 + (25.7-22.2) + (25.7-16.3) - 1 = 12.9

Karl Malone: 3 + (25.0-24.7) + (25.0-19.6) - 0 = 8.7

David Robinson: 0 + (21.1-18.1) + (21.1-13.5) - 2 = 8.6

Elgin Baylor: 7 + (27.4-27.0) + (27.4-26.4) - 0 = 8.4

Chris Bosh: 1 + (19.2-15.8) + (19.2-14.8) - 2 = 6.8

Ray Allen: 1 + (18.9-17.0) + (18.9-14.9) - 2 = 4.9

Lebron James: 2 + (27.5-28.1) + (27.5-23.4) - 2 = 3.5

[RightToCensor]

What would be the league average?

[moe94]

Deuce does it again.

[Rocketswin2013]

5 stars.

[fpliii]

David Robinson: 0 + (21.1-18.1) + (21.1-13.5) - 2 = 8.6

[Deuce Bigalow]

Honorable mention: Dwight Howard.

1 + (-1.4) + 2.9 - 0 = 2.5

[RightToCensor]

Chris Bosh?

[Rocketswin2013]

Which finals is that for Lebron?

[fpliii]

Larry Bird: 2 + (24.3-23.8) + (23.1-23.8) - 3 = -1.2

[salwan]

michael jordan: 0 + (-3.3) + (-3.5) -6 = -12.8

:bowdown:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Which finals is that for Lebron?
It's career average.

Regular season career: 27.5 ppg
Finals career: 23.4 ppg

[-23-]

michael jordan: 0 + (-3.3) + (-3.5) -6 = -12.8

:bowdown:

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: GOAT

[Deuce Bigalow]

David Robinson: 0 + (21.1-18.1) + (21.1-13.5) - 2 = 8.6
Fpliii :cheers:

[Miller for 3]

Dirk, the "choker"

Dirk Nowitzki = (1+(-3.4)+(-1.8)-1)= -5.2

[Deuce Bigalow]

Btw if you guys want to calculate some yourself here are career Finals stats

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=320140

[fpliii]

Magic Johnson: 4 + (19.5-19.5) + (19.5-19.4) - 5 = -1.1

[fpliii]

Kareem: 4 + (24.6-24.3) + (24.6-23.5) - 6 = -0.6

[KyleKong]

michael jordan: 0 + (-3.3) + (-3.5) -6 = -12.8

:bowdown:

Holy shit. :oldlol:

[fpliii]

Kobe: 2 + (25.5-25.6) + (25.5-25.3) - 5 = -2.9 :pimp:

[salwan]

Kobe Bryant: 2 + (-0.1) + 0.2 - 5 = -2.9

[Trollsmasher]

It's career average.

Regular season career: 27.5 ppg
Finals career: 23.4 ppg
Shouldn't it be higher then since we are counting the ppg dropoff in the Finals?

28.1-23.4=4.7

Am I making case against LeBron?:wtf:

[SCdac]

rebounds? assists? field goal %? Even if we're just talking stats, there's more than just ppg. Plus, I would include "amount of first round or second round exits" as a factor. Choking is not exclusive to the Finals.

[fpliii]

Duncan: 1 + (19.9-21.9) + (19.9-21.8) - 4 = -6.9
KG: 2 + (18.7-19.2) + (18.7-16.6) - 1 = 2.6
Shaq: 2 + (23.7-24.3) + (23.7-28.8) - 4 = -7.7
Dirk: 1 + (22.5-25.9) + (22.5-24.4) - 1 = -5.3

[Rocketswin2013]

Biggest yet for Hakeem in 95'.


-14

[Rocketswin2013]

NVM, you guys are doing career.

[Trollsmasher]

We should be using playoffs ppg with the Finals dropoff for the 3rd value imho...

[fpliii]

Russell: 1 + (15.1-16.2) + (15.1-16.4) - 11 = -12.4
Hakeem: 1 + (21.8-25.9) + (21.8-28.0) - 2 = -11.3

[Johnny Jones]

Russell: 1 + (15.1-16.2) + (15.1-16.4) - 11 = -12.4
Hakeem: 1 + (21.8-25.9) + (21.8-28.0) - 2 = -11.3
:bowdown: :bowdown:

[secund2nun]

First round losses, which are way worse than finals losses, are the biggest on the choking rating...that and missed playoffs. So update this with first round losses.

NBA finals loss > CF loss > 2nd round loss > First round loss > Missed playoffs

[fpliii]

We should be using playoffs ppg with the Finals dropoff for the 3rd value imho...
Then the two cancel each other out:

(A-B) + (B-C) = (A-C)

so it'd just be regular season - finals.

This is just for fun though, obviously it's arbitrary, so nothing to take too seriously. Still though, I wonder who the highest and lowest are?

[Miller for 3]

Hakeem = (1+(-4.1)+(-6.2)-2)= -11.3

:bowdown: :rockon:

[salwan]

Rajon Rondo 1 + (-3.4) + (-0.5) - 1 = -3.9 :pimp:

[red1]

Deuce I like the concept but I hate your formula. Why does a finals loss count against you without context?

[Miller for 3]

Hondo =(0+ (-1.2)+(-.9)-8= -10.1

[fpliii]

West: 9 + (27.0-29.1) + (27.0-30.5) - 1 = 2.4
Reggie: 1 + (18.3-20.6) + (18.2-24.3) - 0 = -7.4
Ray Allen: 1 + (18.9-17.0) + (18.9-14.9) - 2 = 4.9

[Miller for 3]

Deuce I like the concept but I hate your formula. Why does a finals loss count against you without context?

Agreed. Lebron in 07 for instanced should be a -4. Got swept and destroyed with a stacked supporting cast that won 75% of their games that Lebron did not dress. :facepalm Boobie carried them into the Finals with his epic game 6, only to have Lebron choke and ruin his legacy.

[Miller for 3]

West: 9 + (27.0-29.1) + (27.0-30.5) - 1 = 2.4
Reggie: 1 + (18.3-20.6) + (18.2-24.3) - 0 = -7.4
Ray Allen: 1 + (18.9-17.0) + (18.9-14.9) - 2 = 4.9

:rockon:

Reggie da GOAT.

Even with 9 Finals losses West doesn't come out too bad, beast :rockon:

[Deuce Bigalow]

I think playoff series losses with HCA would be a good thing to add.

Kareem 35-5 in series with HCA
Russell 22-1 in series with HCA
Magic 29-3 in series with HCA
Bird 24-7 in series with HCA
Wilt 13-5 in series with HCA
Hakeem 9-2 in series with HCA and Lost with Same Record in 1993 at 55-27 against Seattle and in 1999 at 31-19 against LA. Thus he is 9-4 in Series with Same Record/HCA

I don't know how many HCA series Karl Malone, Oscar, Baylor, and Lebron lost though. Anyone know?

[Young X]

^Jordan was 24-0 with HCA :confusedshrug:

[Young X]

Bron is 24-3 with HCA. Pretty good.

[Rocketswin2013]

If somebody would really account everything and make this a legit stat it would be better than any advanced stat created.

[Deuce Bigalow]

rebounds? assists? field goal %? Even if we're just talking stats, there's more than just ppg. Plus, I would include "amount of first round or second round exits" as a factor. Choking is not exclusive to the Finals.
That would be cool but would take a long time to find out.

Best choking formula would be: Losses with HCA - Finals losses - playoff ppg drop - finals ppg drop - playoff rpg drop - finals rpg drop - playoff apg drop - finals apg drop - playoff fg% drop - finals fg% drop - playoff ft% drop - finals ft% drop

That's a long formula though :lol

[fpliii]

Wade: 1 + (24.4-23.7) + (24.4-25.7) - 3 = -2.6
Parker: 1 + (17.1-19.1) + (17.1-16.2) - 3 = -3.1
Pierce: 1 + (21.3-20.9) + (21.3-19.8) - 1 = 1.9
Dr. J: 3 + (22.0-21.9) + (22.0-25.5) - 1 = -1.4
Pippen: 0 + (16.1-17.5) + (16.1-19.0) - 6 = -10.3
Stockton: 2 + (13.1-13.4) + (13.1-12.3) - 0 = 2.5
Billups: 1 + (15.2-17.3) + (15.2-20.8) - 1 = -7.7
Barkley: 1 + (22.1-23.0) + (22.1-27.3) - 0 = -5.1
Isiah: 1 + (19.2-22.6) + (19.2-20.4) - 2 = -5.6
Kidd: 2 + (12.6-12.9) + (12.6-15.4) - 1 = -2.1
Iverson: 1 + (26.7-29.7) + (26.7-35.6) - 0 = -10.9
Moses: 1 + (20.3-22.1) + (20.3-23.6) - 1 = -5.1
Havlicek: 0 + (20.8-22.0) + (20.8-21.7) - 8 = -10.1
Mikan: 0 + (23.1-24.0) + (23.1-23.9) - 5 = -6.7
Barry: 1 - (23.2-24.8) + (23.2-36.3) - 1 = -11.5
Walton: 1 - (13.3-10.8) + (13.3-13.3) - 2 = -3.5

Okay, bored of this now lol.

[9erempiree]

Good formula and I will use it. I think it is valid. It comes as no suprise that the players mentioned are chokers.

[fpliii]

I think playoff series losses with HCA would be a good thing to add.


I don't know how many HCA series Karl Malone, Oscar, Baylor, and Lebron lost though. Anyone know?
Russell's only loss is that Finals when he was crippled. Damn. :eek:

Kobe and Duncan would do well in that measure as well.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wade: 1 + (24.4-23.7) + (24.4-25.7) - 3 = -2.6
Parker: 1 + (17.1-19.1) + (17.1-16.2) - 3 = -3.1
Pierce: 1 + (21.3-20.9) + (21.3-19.8) - 1 = 1.9
Dr. J: 3 + (22.0-21.9) + (22.0-25.5) - 1 = -1.4
Pippen: 0 + (16.1-17.5) + (16.1-19.0) - 6 = -10.3
Stockton: 2 + (13.1-13.4) + (13.1-12.3) - 0 = 2.5
Billups: 1 + (15.2-17.3) + (15.2-20.8) - 1 = -7.7
Barkley: 1 + (22.1-23.0) + (22.1-27.3) - 0 = -5.1
Isiah: 1 + (19.2-22.6) + (19.2-20.4) - 2 = -5.6
Kidd: 2 + (12.6-12.9) + (12.6-15.4) - 1 = -2.1
Iverson: 1 + (26.7-29.7) + (26.7-35.6) - 0 = -10.9
Moses: 1 + (20.3-22.1) + (20.3-23.6) - 1 = -5.1
Havlicek: 0 + (20.8-22.0) + (20.8-21.7) - 8 = -10.1
Mikan: 0 + (23.1-24.0) + (23.1-23.9) - 5 = -6.7
Barry: 1 - (23.2-24.8) + (23.2-36.3) - 1 = -11.5
Walton: 1 - (13.3-10.8) + (13.3-13.3) - 2 = -3.5

Okay, bored of this now lol.
:lol :applause:

[fpliii]

:lol :applause:
:cheers:

[J Shuttlesworth]

lol @ losing in the finals being a bad thing. You don't get choke points for missing the finals, or not making the playoffs? :lol

[SCdac]

lol @ losing in the finals being a bad thing. You don't get choke points for missing the finals, or not making the playoffs? :lol

no kidding

[salwan]

That would be cool but would take a long time to find out.

Best choking formula would be: Losses with HCA - Finals losses - playoff ppg drop - finals ppg drop - playoff rpg drop - finals rpg drop - playoff apg drop - finals apg drop - playoff fg% drop - finals fg% drop - playoff ft% drop - finals ft% drop

That's a long formula though :lol

michael jordan:
0 + 0 + (-3.3) + (-3.5) + (-0.2) + 0.2 + (-0.4) + (-0.7) + 1%*100 + 1.6%*100 + 0.7%*100 + 2.9%*100 - 6 = - 7.7

[DonDadda59]

Deuce I like the concept but I hate your formula. Why does a finals loss count against you without context?

This. Great idea, but definitely some flaws. Like does anyone consider Jerry West to be a 'choker' because his team lost an insane 8 finals. He is the all time leading scorer in finals History (total point) and has career averages of 30.5 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 5.3 apg, 45.9 FG%, 82.6 FT%, 53.3 TS%. He won finals MVP in '69 despite the Lakers losing to the Celtics putting up 38/5/7 (49%) while on the other side Russell, who's considered the 'GOAT winner', put up 9.1 PPG (39.7%) to win his 11th ring.

Plenty of guys have won rings playing subpar basketball while others have lost playing great. Context is key, but still a cool and fun concept by Deuce.

[fpliii]

Everybody in this thread so far:

Wilt Chamberlain: 4 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) - 2 = 21.1
Oscar Robertson: 1 + (25.7-22.2) + (25.7-16.3) - 1 = 12.9
Karl Malone: 3 + (25.0-24.7) + (25.0-19.6) - 0 = 8.7
David Robinson: 0 + (21.1-18.1) + (21.1-13.5) - 2 = 8.6
Elgin Baylor: 7 + (27.4-27.0) + (27.4-26.4) - 0 = 8.4
Ray Allen: 1 + (18.9-17.0) + (18.9-14.9) - 2 = 4.9
Lebron James: 2 + (27.5-28.1) + (27.5-23.4) - 2 = 3.5
Kevin Garnett: 2 + (18.7-19.2) + (18.7-16.6) - 1 = 2.6
Dwight Howard: 1 + (18.3-19.7) + (18.3-15.4) - 0 = 2.5
John Stockton: 2 + (13.1-13.4) + (13.1-12.3) - 0 = 2.5
Jerry West: 9 + (27.0-29.1) + (27.0-30.5) - 1 = 2.4
Paul Pierce: 1 + (21.3-20.9) + (21.3-19.8) - 1 = 1.9
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: 4 + (24.6-24.3) + (24.6-23.5) - 6 = -0.6
Magic Johnson: 4 + (19.5-19.5) + (19.5-19.4) - 5 = -1.1
Larry Bird: 2 + (24.3-23.8) + (23.1-23.8) - 3 = -1.2
Julius Erving: 3 + (22.0-21.9) + (22.0-25.5) - 1 = -1.4
Jason Kidd: 2 + (12.6-12.9) + (12.6-15.4) - 1 = -2.1
Dwyane Wade: 1 + (24.4-23.7) + (24.4-25.7) - 3 = -2.6
Kobe Bryant: 2 + (25.5-25.6) + (25.5-25.3) - 5 = -2.9
Tony Parker: 1 + (17.1-19.1) + (17.1-16.2) - 3 = -3.1
Bill Walton: 1 - (13.3-10.8) + (13.3-13.3) - 2 = -3.5
Rajon Rondo: 1 - (11.1-14.5) + (11.1-11.6) - 1 = -3.9
Charles Barkley: 1 + (22.1-23.0) + (22.1-27.3) - 0 = -5.1
Moses Malone: 1 + (20.3-22.1) + (20.3-23.6) - 1 = -5.1
Dirk Nowitzki: 1 + (22.5-25.9) + (22.5-24.4) - 1 = -5.3
Isiah Thomas: 1 + (19.2-22.6) + (19.2-20.4) - 2 = -5.6
George Mikan: 0 + (23.1-24.0) + (23.1-23.9) - 5 = -6.7
Tim Duncan: 1 + (19.9-21.9) + (19.9-21.8) - 4 = -6.9
Reggie Miller: 1 + (18.3-20.6) + (18.2-24.3) - 0 = -7.4
Chauncey Billups: 1 + (15.2-17.3) + (15.2-20.8) - 1 = -7.7
Shaquille O'Neal: 2 + (23.7-24.3) + (23.7-28.8) - 4 = -7.7
John Havlicek: 0 + (20.8-22.0) + (20.8-21.7) - 8 = -10.1
Scottie Pippen: 0 + (16.1-17.5) + (16.1-19.0) - 6 = -10.3
Allen Iverson: 1 + (26.7-29.7) + (26.7-35.6) - 0 = -10.9
Rick Barry: 1 - (23.2-24.8) + (23.2-36.3) - 1 = -11.5
Hakeem Olajuwon: 1 + (21.8-25.9) + (21.8-28.0) - 2 = -11.3
Bill Russell: 1 + (15.1-16.2) + (15.1-16.4) - 11 = -12.4
Michael Jordan: 0 + (30.1-33.4) + (30.1-33.6) -6 = -12.8

[Deuce Bigalow]

Here are the best anti-chokers you guys posted. Anyone with -5 or better.

Jordan: 0 + (-3.3) + (-3.5) -6 = -12.8
Russell: 1 + (15.1-16.2) + (15.1-16.4) - 11 = -12.4
Barry: 1 - (23.2-24.8) + (23.2-36.3) - 1 = -11.5
Hakeem: 1 + (21.8-25.9) + (21.8-28.0) - 2 = -11.3
Iverson: 1 + (26.7-29.7) + (26.7-35.6) - 0 = -10.9
Pippen: 0 + (16.1-17.5) + (16.1-19.0) - 6 = -10.3
Havlicek: 0 + (20.8-22.0) + (20.8-21.7) - 8 = -10.1
Shaq: 2 + (23.7-24.3) + (23.7-28.8) - 4 = -7.7
Billups: 1 + (15.2-17.3) + (15.2-20.8) - 1 = -7.7
Reggie: 1 + (18.3-20.6) + (18.2-24.3) - 0 = -7.4
Duncan: 1 + (19.9-21.9) + (19.9-21.8) - 4 = -6.9
Mikan: 0 + (23.1-24.0) + (23.1-23.9) - 5 = -6.7
Isiah: 1 + (19.2-22.6) + (19.2-20.4) - 2 = -5.6
Dirk: 1 + (22.5-25.9) + (22.5-24.4) - 1 = -5.3
Barkley: 1 + (22.1-23.0) + (22.1-27.3) - 0 = -5.1
Moses: 1 + (20.3-22.1) + (20.3-23.6) - 1 = -5.1

[Heavincent]

Instead of finals losses maybe it should be number of playoff losses to lower seeded teams? Just an idea.

[Trollsmasher]

From this I can safely conclude that Jordan is the worst choker of all time

And people call this guy GOAT:facepalm

[DonDadda59]

From this I can safely conclude that Jordan is the worst choker of all time

And people call this guy GOAT:facepalm

:oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Losses with HCA + Finals losses + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + 4 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 41.3

[Rocketswin2013]

Losses with HCA + Finals losses + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + 4 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) = 43.3
Dang.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Maybe losses with HCA only and no finals losses?

Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

[LAZERUSS]

Chamberlain the "choker" in his post-seasons...

In the first half of his career, which covered six post-seasons (his team was so awful that he didn't make the playoffs in a year in which he averaged 45 ppg on a then record .528 FG%), and in his "scoring" seasons...and in 67 playoff games...

He AVERAGED 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, and shot .515 from the field, in post-season leagues that shot, on average, .420 from the floor, as well as an conservative estimate of 8+ bpg. AVERAGED. In 67 games COMBINED. Oh, and he just SLAUGHTERED his OPPOSING CENTERS in those series, including Thurmond and RUSSELL.

I'll challenge Deuce right now to find me the "GOATS" who put up ONE PLAYOFF SERIES in their entire career, which would have matched those numbers.

Oh, and BTW, in those 67 games, Wilt faced RUSSELL 35 times, and Thurmond six times, or he was battling two of the three greatest defensive centers of all-time, in approximately 2/3's of his playoff games to that point.

Furthermore, this Wilt who "declined" in his post-seasons, had entire post-seasons of 28.0 ppg, 29.3 ppg, 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg. He also had four playoff series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.7 ppg. In that same span (again, a "scoring" Wilt), he had playoff series against RUSSELL of 30.5 ppg on a .500 FG%, in a post-season NBA that shot .402 from the field; 33.6 ppg on a .468 FG%, in a post-season NBA that shot .411; 29.2 ppg on a .517 FG% in a post-season NBA that shot .420; 30.1 ppg on a .555 FG%, in a post-season NBA that shot .429; 28.0 ppg on a .509 FG% and in a post-season NBA that shot .440; and 21.6 ppg on a .556 FG% in a post-season NBA that shot .428 overall.

He had FOUR 50+ point games, THREE of which came in MUST-WIN games, and one of those was against RUSSELL. He also had MUST-WIN games of 46-34 (again, against Russell), and a FINALS "must-win" game of 45 points, 27 rebounds, and on 20-27 FG/FGA.

Chamberlain played in 29 post-season series, and was NEVER outrebounded in ANY of them, which included two against Bellamy, two against Kareem, three against Reed, three against Thurmond, three against Lucas, and eight against Russell. In fact, he was CRUSHING those guys. He had series against Reed in which he outrebounded him by over 9 rpg; series against Thurmond in which he outrebounded him by over 6 rpg; and he had series against Russell in which he outrebounded Russell by 9 rpg.

Wilt played in six Finals, and wiped the floor with his opposing center in rebounding in ALL of them. He was outrebounding them by as many as 10 rpg. He also outshot his opposing centers in those six series by margins of .525 to .493; .500 to .399; .600 to .500; .560 to .343; and .625 to .483.

And how about this from a "choking" Chamberlain:


The idiotic Bill Simmons claims that Wilt "shrunk" in the post-season, particularly in BIG games.

Had he actually done any real research into Wilt's post-season career, he would have found that Wilt averaged 27.0 ppg in his 35 "must-win" and/or clinching games. Meanwhile, his starting opposing centers averaged 14.5 ppg in those 35 games. He also outscored his opposing starting center in 29 of those 35 games, including a 19-0 edge in his first 19 games of those 35. Furthermore, in his 13 games which came in his "scoring" seasons (from 59-60 thru 65-66), Chamberlain averaged 37.3 ppg in those "do-or-die" or clinching games. And there were MANY games in which he just CRUSHED his opposing centers in those games (e.g. he outscored Kerr in one them, 53-7.)

Wilt had THREE of his four 50+ point post-season games, in these "elimination games", including two in "at the limit" games, and another against Russell in a "must-win" game. He also had games of 46-34 and 45-27 (and only 4 months removed from major knee surgery) in these types of games. In addition he had games of 39 and 38 in clinching wins.

In the known 19 games in which we have both Wilt's, and his starting opposing center's rebounding numbers, Chamberlain outrebounded them in 15 of them, and by an average margin of 26.1 rpg to 18.9 rpg. And, had we had all 35 of the totals, it would have been by a considerably larger margin. A conservative estimate would put Wilt with at least a 30-5 overall edge in those 35 games. He also had games, even against the likes of Russell, and in "must-win" situations, where he just MURDERED his opposing centers (e.g. he had one clinching game, against Russell, in which he outrebounded him by a 36-21 margin.)

And finally, in the known FG% games in which we have, Chamberlain not only shot an eye-popping .582 in those "do-or-die" games, but he held his opposing centers to a combined .413 FG%. BTW, he played against Kareem in two "clinching" games, and held Abdul-Jabbar to a combined .383 shooting in those two games (23-60), while Wilt shot .545 (18-33).

The bottom line, in the known games of the 35 that Wilt played in that involved a "must-win" or clincher, Wilt averaged 27 ppg, 26.1 rpg, and shot .582 (and the 27 ppg figure was known for all 35 of those games.)

And once again, Chamberlain played in 11 games which went to the series limit (nine game seven's, one game five of a best-of-five series, and one game three of a best-of-three series), and all he did was average 29.9 ppg (outscoring his opposing center by a 29.9 ppg to 9.8 ppg margin in the process), with 26.7 rpg, and on .581 shooting. Or he was an eye-lash away from averaging a 30-27 game, and on nearly .600 shooting, in those 11 "at the limit" games.


Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's TEAMs went 24-11 in those 35 games, too.

That was the same player that Simmons basically labeled a "loser", and a "choker", and who "shrunk" in his BIG games.

[Trollsmasher]

and here it comes

[LAZERUSS]

And here were all 35 of Wilt's MUST-WIN, or SERIES CLINCHING post-season games...along with just how well his OPPOSING CENTER played in them...


Ok, here are the known numbers in Wilt's "must-win" playoff games (elimination games), and clinching game performances (either deciding winning or losing games), of BOTH Chamberlain, and his starting opposing centers in those games.

1. Game three of a best-of-three series in the first round of the 59-60 playoffs against Syracuse, a 132-112 win. Wilt with 53 points, on 24-42 shooting, with 22 rebounds. His opposing center, Red Kerr, who was a multiple all-star in his career, had 7 points.

2. Game five of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, a 128-107 win. Chamberlain had 50 points, on 22-42 shooting, with 35 rebounds. His opposing center, Russell, had 22 points and 27 rebounds.

3. Game six of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, in a 119-117 loss. Wilt had a 26-24 game, while Russell had a 25-25 game.

4. Game three of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 60-61 playoffs , and against Syracuse, in a 106-103 loss. Chamberlain with 33 points, while his opposing center, the 7-3 Swede Halbrook, scored 6 points.

5. Game five of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 61-62 playoffs, against Syracuse, in a 121-104 win. Chamberlain had 56 points, on 22-48 shooting, with 35 rebounds. Kerr had 20 points in the loss.

6. Game six of the 61-62 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 109-99 win. Wilt with 32 points and 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points and 22 rebounds in the loss.

7. Game seven of the 61-62 ECF's, against Boston, in a 109-107 loss. Wilt with 22 points, on 7-15 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the win.

8. Game seven of the 63-64 WCF's, and against St. Louis, in a 105-95 win. Wilt with 39 points, 26 rebounds, and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty, who would go on to become a multiple all-star, had 10 points in the loss.

9. Game five of the 63-64 Finals, and against Boston, in a 105-99 loss. Chamberlain with 30 points and 27 rebounds. Russell had 14 points and 26 points in the win.

10. Game four of a best-of-five series in the 64-65 first round of the playoffs against Cincinnati, a 119-112 win. Chamberlain with 38 points. His opposing center, multiple all-star (and HOFer) Wayne Embry had 7 points in the loss.

11. Game six of the 64-65 ECF's, against Boston, a 112-106 win. Chamberlain with a 30-26 game. Russell with a 22-21 game in the loss.

12. Game seven of the 64-65 ECF's, and against Boston, a 110-109 loss. Wilt with 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds. Russell had 15 points, on 7-16 shooting, with 29 rebounds in the win.

13. Game five of a best-of-seven series, in the 65-66 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 120-112 loss. Wilt had 46 points, on 19-34 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 18 points and 31 rebounds in the win.

14. Game four of a best-of-five series, in the first round of the 66-67 playoffs, and against Cincinnati, a 112-94 win. Wilt with 18 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 27 rebounds and 9 assists. His opposing center, Connie Dierking, had 8 points, on 4-14 shooting, with 4 rebounds in the loss.

15. Game five of the 66-67 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 140-116 win. Chamberlain with 29 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, 13 assists, and 7 blocks. Russell had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 21 rebounds, and 7 assists in the loss.

16. Game six of the 66-67 Finals, and against San Francisco, in a 125-122 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 8-13 shooting, with 23 rebounds. His oppsoing center, HOFer Nate Thurmond, had 12 points, on 4-13 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the loss.

17. Game six of the first round of the 67-68 playoffs, against NY, in a 113-97 win. Wilt had 25 points, and 27 rebounds. His opposing center, HOFer Walt Bellamy, had 19 points in the loss.

18. Game seven of the 67-68 ECF's, against Boston, in a 100-96 loss. Wilt with 14 points, on 4-9 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 12 points and 26 rebounds in the win.

19. Game six of the first round of the 68-69 playoffs, against San Francisco, in a 118-78 win. Wilt with 11 points. Thurmond had 8 points in the loss.

20. Game four of the 68-69 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Chamberlain with 16 points. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty had 30 points in the loss.

21. Game seven of the 68-69 Finals, against Boston, in a 108-106 loss. Chamberlain had 18 points, on 7-8 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Russell had 6 points, on 2-7 shooting, with 21 rebounds in the win.

22. Game five of a best-of-seven series (the Lakers were down 3-1 going into the game) in the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, and against Phoenix, a 138-121 win. Wilt with 36 points and 14 rebounds. His opposing center, Neal Walk, had 18 points in the loss.

23. Game six of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, in a 104-93 win. Wilt with 12 points. Jim Fox started that game for Phoenix, and had 13 points in the loss.

24. Game seven of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, and in a 129-94 win, which capped a 4-3 series win after falling behind 3-1 in the series. Wilt with 30 points, 27 rebounds, and 11 blocks. Fox had 7 points in the loss.

25. Game four of the 69-70 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Wilt with 11 points. Bellamy had 19 points in the loss.

26. Game six of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 135-113 win. Wilt with 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Nate Bowman had 18 points, on 9-15 shooting, with 8 rebounds in the loss.

27. Game seven of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 113-99 loss. Wilt with 21 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 24 rebounds. HOFer Willis Reed had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 3 rebounds in the win.

28. Game seven of the first round of the 70-71 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 109-98 win. Wilt with 25 points and 18 rebounds. 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle had 4 points for the Bulls in the loss.

29. Game five of the 70-71 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 116-94 loss. Wilt had 23 points, on 10-21 shooting, with 12 rebounds, 6 blocks (5 of them on Alcindor/Kareem.) Kareem had 20 points, on 7-23 shooting, with 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks in the win. Incidently, Wilt received a standing ovation when he left the game late...and the game was played in Milwaukee.

30. Game four of the 71-72 first round of the playoffs, against Chicago, in a 108-97 sweeping win. Wilt had 8 points and 31 rebounds. Clifford Ray had 20 points in the loss.

31. Game six of the 71-72 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 104-100 win. Chamberlain with 20 points, on 8-12 shooting, with 24 rebounds, and 9 blocks (six against Kareem.) Kareem had 37 points, on 16-37 shooting, with 25 rebounds in the loss.

32. Game five of the 71-72 Finals, against NY, in a 114-100 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks. HOFer Jerry Lucas had 14 points, on 5-14 shooting, with 9 rebounds in the loss.

33. Game seven of the first round of the 72-73 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 95-92 win. Wilt with 21 points and 28 rebounds. His opposing center, Clifford Ray, had 4 points.

34. Game five of the 72-73 WCF's, and against Golden St., in a 128-118 win. Wilt with 5 points. Thurmond had 9 points in the loss.

35. Game five of the 72-73 Finals, against NY, in a 102-93 loss. Wilt with 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Willis Reed had 18 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 12 rebounds.

That was it. 35 "must-win" elimination and/or clinching post-season games.

THAT was Deuce's "choker"...

a player who was the best player on the floor in the overwhelming majority of his 29 post-season series, and who was arguably NEVER outplayed by an OPPOSING CENTER in ANY of them (only KAJ's '72 WCF's would be arguable, and even then, those that actually watched that series credited Wilt with either outplaying, or downright DECISIVELY outplaying Kareem in that series.)

[zoom17]

and here it comes

:oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Chamberlain the "choker" in his post-seasons...

In the first half of his career, which covered six post-seasons (his team was so awful that he didn't make the playoffs in a year in which he averaged 45 ppg on a then record .528 FG%)...and in 67 playoff games...

He AVERAGED 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, and shot .515 from the field, in post-season leagues that shot, on average, .420 from the floor, as well as an conservative estimate of 8+ bpg. AVERAGED.

I'll challenge Deuce right now to find me the "GOATS" who put up ONE PLAYOFF SERIES in their entire career, which would have matched those numbers.

Oh, and BTW, in those 67 games, Wilt faced RUSSELL 35 times, and Thurmond six times, or he was battling two of the three greatest defensive centers of all-time, in approximately 2/3's of his playoff games to that point.

Furthermore, this Wilt who "declined" in his post-seasons, had entire post-seasons of 28.0 ppg, 29.3 ppg, 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg. He also had four playoff series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.7 ppg. In that same span (again, a "scoring" Wilt), he had playoff series against RUSSELL of 30.5 ppg on a .500 FG%, in a post-season NBA that shot .402 from the field; 33.6 ppg on a .468 FG%, in a post-season NBA that shot .411; 29.2 ppg on a .517 FG% in a post-season NBA that shot .420; 30.1 ppg on a .555 FG%, in a post-season NBA that shot .429; 28.0 ppg on a .509 FG% and in a post-season NBA that shot .440; and 21.6 ppg on a .556 FG% in a post-season NBA that shot .428 overall.

He had FOUR 50+ point games, THREE of which came in MUST-WIN games, and one of those was against RUSSELL. He also had MUST-WIN games of 46-34 (again, against Russell), and a FINALS "must-win" game of 45 points, 27 rebounds, and on 20-27 FG/FGA.

Chamberlain played in 29 post-season series, and was NEVER outrebounded in ANY of them, which included two against Bellamy, two against Kareem, three against Reed, three against Thurmond, three against Lucas, and eight against Russell. In fact, he was CRUSHING those guys. He had series against Reed in which he outrebounded him by over 9 rpg; series against Thurmond in which he outrebounded him by over 6 rpg; and he had series against Russell in which he outrebounded Russell by 9 rpg.

Wilt played in six Finals, and wiped the floor with his opposing center in rebounding in ALL of them. He was outrebounding them by as many as 10 rpg. He also outshot his opposing centers in those six series by margins of .525 to .493; .500 to .399; .600 to .500; .560 to .343; and .625 to .483.

And how about this from a "choking" Chamberlain:
Did not read

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18r3nupfqkb31gif/original.gif

[DonDadda59]

Losses with HCA + Finals losses + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + 4 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 41.3

No matter what angle you look at it from :lol


Originally Posted by LAZERUSS
Chamberlain the "choker" in his post-seasons...

Numbers don't lie bruh :no:

[Rocketswin2013]

Chamberlain played way below his regular level throughout his playoff career. Say what you want about opposing centers but it's not about them, it's about him.

And your obsession with Chamberlain is starting to get disturbing. But then again maybe you're a die-hard fan of his

[LAZERUSS]

No matter what angle you look at it from :lol



Numbers don't lie bruh :no:

NUMBERS don't lie...

Give me a list of GOATS who had entire post-seasons of 28 ppg and 30 rpg. Chamberlain had one. How about 30-20 post-seasons? Chamberlain had FOUR. How about 25-25 post-seasons? Chamberlain had FIVE. How about 20-20 post-seasons? Wilt had NINE. How about 20 rpg post-seasons? Chamberlain played in 13 post-seasons, and guess what... 13 of 20+.

Give me a list of "GOATs" who had a had post-seasons of at least 20 ppg, 20 rpg, 10 apg, and shot .550 or better from the field in them? Wilt had TWO, including one against RUSSELL.

Chamberlain played in SIX Finals, (of which FIVE came after his prolific scoring seasons), and still had Finals series of 29-28 .517 (against Russell), and 23-24 .625 (against REED.) He outscored his OPPOSING CENTER in four of them; outrebounded his OPPOSING CENTER in all SIX; and outshot his OPPOSING CENTER from the floor in ALL SIX.

How about DEFENSE?

he faced Russell EIGHT times, and held him below the post-season league average in terms of FG% in the majority of them, including series of .399, .398, .386, and .358.

He faced Thurmond in three playoff series,and outshot Nate by margins of .500 to .392; .611 to .373; and .560 to .343 (and in Thurmond's greatest season BTW.)

He faced Kareem in two playoff series, and held Kareem to .481 in one, and in a season in which Kareem shot .577 against the NBA; and .457 in the other, and in a season in which Kareem shot .574 against the NBA.

In the '68 playoffs, he outscored Bellamy by a 25-20 ppg margin, and outshot him from the field by a .584 to .421 margin...in a season in which Bellamy shot .541 against the NBA.

The "Wilt-bashers" will never mention Wilt's OVERWHELMING DEFENSE in these discussions. How come?

[russwest0]

Good shit. Someone do Durant.

[Rocketswin2013]

Lol man he obviously does acknowledge the words "below average"

[LAZERUSS]

Incidently, Wilt faced RUSSELL and the greatest dynasty in the history of the sport EIGHT times.

Now, how about MJ against the "Bad Boys" in his four playoff series against them (the last of which came against a shell of what that team had been BTW)...and a DRAMATIC drop off in BOTH scoring and FG%'s.

Shaq faced the Spurs in FIVE playoff series from 1999 thru 2004. A HUGE dropoff in terms of scoring and FG%.

A peak Kareem faced both Wilt and Thurmond in FIVE playoff series...and his scoring dropped by over SEVEN ppg, and his combined FG% in those 27 H2H games... .450 (in seasons in which he shot .563 from the field on average.)

[Deuce Bigalow]

Currently compiling a new and improved formula.

Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Karl Malone: 8 + (25.0-24.7) + (25.0-19.6) + (10.1-10.7) + (10.1-9.6) + (3.6-3.2) + (3.6-3.3) + (51.6-46.3) + (51.6-46.0) + (74.2-73.6) + (74.2-67.6) - 0 = 32.4

David Robinson: 6 + (21.1-18.1) + (21.1-13.5) + (10.6-10.6) + (10.6-9.4) + (2.5-2.3) + (2.5-1.5) + (51.8-47.9) + (51.8-49.5) + (73.6-70.8) + (73.6-69.2) - 2 = 30.4

[Deuce Bigalow]

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Karl Malone: 8 + (25.0-24.7) + (25.0-19.6) + (10.1-10.7) + (10.1-9.6) + (3.6-3.2) + (3.6-3.3) + (51.6-46.3) + (51.6-46.0) + (74.2-73.6) + (74.2-67.6) - 0 = 32.4

David Robinson: 6 + (21.1-18.1) + (21.1-13.5) + (10.6-10.6) + (10.6-9.4) + (2.5-2.3) + (2.5-1.5) + (51.8-47.9) + (51.8-49.5) + (73.6-70.8) + (73.6-69.2) - 2 = 30.4
That's your top 3 folks. Care to explain this Laz? I've been right all along about Wilt.

[Johnny Jones]

Currently compiling a new and improved formula.

Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Karl Malone: 8 + (25.0-24.7) + (25.0-19.6) + (10.1-10.7) + (10.1-9.6) + (3.6-3.2) + (3.6-3.3) + (51.6-46.3) + (51.6-46.0) + (74.2-73.6) + (74.2-67.6) - 0 = 32.4

David Robinson: 6 + (21.1-18.1) + (21.1-13.5) + (10.6-10.6) + (10.6-9.4) + (2.5-2.3) + (2.5-1.5) + (51.8-47.9) + (51.8-49.5) + (73.6-70.8) + (73.6-69.2) - 2 = 30.4
:applause:

[Andrei89]

What about Kirby?

[HOoopCityJones]

What about Kirby?

Gotta wait for the Jebrony stats first.

[Andrei89]

Gotta wait for the Jebrony stats first.

I am just saying. That FG% Drop in Kirby game 7 v Boston must have really had an impact on his choking rating.

[SCdac]

David Robinson was 33 and 37 when he played in the Finals, post injury and outside of his prime... a "finals drop off", particularly in points, is pretty misleading.

[wildchild]

What would be the league average?

3.5

[wildchild]

michael jordan: 0 + (-3.3) + (-3.5) -6 = -12.8

:bowdown:

Holy Shit, GOAT! :bowdown:

[Deuce Bigalow]

What about Kirby?
2 + (25.5-25.6) + (25.5-25.3) + (5.3-5.1) + (5.3-5.7) + (4.8-4.7) + (4.8-5.1) + (45.4-44.8) + (45.4-41.2) + (83.8-81.6) + (83.8-84.8) - 5 = 2.7

[Andrei89]

2 + (25.5-25.6) + (25.5-25.3) + (5.3-5.1) + (5.3-5.7) + (4.8-4.7) + (4.8-5.1) + (45.4-44.8) + (45.4-41.2) + (83.8-81.6) + (83.8-84.8) - 5 = 2.7


Nice stat. Better than Lebron. Not better than Wade though :rockon: :rockon:

[LAZERUSS]

That's your top 3 folks. Care to explain this Laz? I've been right all along about Wilt.

Well, how about your boy Kobe.


99-00
Regular season 22.5 ppg .468 FG%
Finals 15.6 ppg .367 FG%
Last Game of Series .296 FG%

00-01
Regular season 28.5 ppg .464 FG%
Finals 24.6 ppg .415 FG%
Last Game .389

01-02
Regular season 25.2 ppg .469
Finals 26.8 ppg .514
Last Game .438

03-04
Regular season 24.0 ppg .438
Finals 22.6 ppg .381
Last Game .333

07-08
Regular season 28.3 ppg .459
Finals 25.7 ppg .405
Last .318

08-09
Regular season 26.8 ppg .467
Finals 32.4 ppg .430
Last .435

09-10
Regular season 27.0 ppg .456
Finals 28.6 ppg .405
Last .250


Other noteables:


97-98
Swept by Utah 4-0.
Kobe averages 10.0 ppg on a .367 FG%

98-99
Swept by San Antonio 4-0
Last game of the series : Kobe 16 points on a .438 FG%

02-03
Lose to Spurs in WCF's, 4-2.
Last game loss by a score of 110-82 (Kobe with 20 points in a season in which he averaged 30 ppg)

03-04 Finals
Heavily favored Lakers lose to Pistons, 4-1.
In the clinching game five loss Kobe shoots .333 in a 100-87 loss (and LA was down 23 going into 4th quarter)

04-05
Team goes 34-48 and misses playoffs

05-06
Regular season 35.4 ppg .450
Playoffs 27.9 ppg .497
Last game (7) 24 points in a 121-90 loss (after blowing a 3-1 series lead)

06-07
Team goes 42-40
Loses in first round to Suns, 4-1.
Last game of that series, Kobe shoots .394 from the floor

07-08
Lakers are blown out by Celts in Finals.
In game four the Lakers blow a 23 point lead, and lose, in a game in which Kobe shot .316 from the field.

In the clinching game six loss, the Lakers lose by a Finals record margin of 131-92. Kobe shoots .318 from the floor.

10-11
Lakers with HCA are swept by the Mavs, 4-0.
In the clinching game four loss, LA loses 122-86. Kobe shoots .389 from the field.



He plays in seven Finals, two of which are against the lowly Nets (his only two excellent Finals BTW.) He is below average, or downright awful in FIVE of them.
He is even worse in the deciding games. And he is carried to THREE rings by Shaq. In fact, HE is the reason why LA loses in '04 and '08.

GOAT CHOKER....

[Johnny Jones]

Well, how about your boy Kobe.



He plays in seven Finals, two of which are against the lowly Nets (his only two excellent Finals BTW.) He is below average, or downright awful in FIVE of them. He is even worse in the deciding games. And he is carried to THREE rings by Shaq. In fact, HE is the reason why LA loses in '04 and '08.

GOAT CHOKER....
Not accoring to the NBA choking rating, brah.

[HOoopCityJones]

I am just saying. That FG% Drop in Kirby game 7 v Boston must have really had an impact on his choking rating.

2011.

No other drops compare to Jebrony.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Gotta wait for the Jebrony stats first.
3 + (27.5-28.1) + (27.5-23.4) + (7.2-8.6) + (7.2-9.0) + (6.9-6.7) + (6.9-7.0) + (49.6-47.2) + (49.6-44.1) + (74.7-74.9) + (74.7-73.7) - 2 = 10.1

[Rocketswin2013]

Well, how about your boy Kobe.



He plays in seven Finals, two of which are against the lowly Nets (his only two excellent Finals BTW.) He is below average, or downright awful in FIVE of them.
He is even worse in the deciding games. And he is carried to THREE rings by Shaq. In fact, HE is the reason why LA loses in '04 and '08.

GOAT CHOKER....
Lol I've never seen this guy out of character. It's like watching a nun fight.

Thought he was some sort of bot somehow.

[juju151111]

Chamberlain the "choker" in his post-seasons...

In the first half of his career, which covered six post-seasons (his team was so awful that he didn't make the playoffs in a year in which he averaged 45 ppg on a then record .528 FG%), and in his "scoring" seasons...and in 67 playoff games...

He AVERAGED 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, and shot .515 from the field, in post-season leagues that shot, on average, .420 from the floor, as well as an conservative estimate of 8+ bpg. AVERAGED. In 67 games COMBINED. Oh, and he just SLAUGHTERED his OPPOSING CENTERS in those series, including Thurmond and RUSSELL.

I'll challenge Deuce right now to find me the "GOATS" who put up ONE PLAYOFF SERIES in their entire career, which would have matched those numbers.

Oh, and BTW, in those 67 games, Wilt faced RUSSELL 35 times, and Thurmond six times, or he was battling two of the three greatest defensive centers of all-time, in approximately 2/3's of his playoff games to that point.

Furthermore, this Wilt who "declined" in his post-seasons, had entire post-seasons of 28.0 ppg, 29.3 ppg, 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg. He also had four playoff series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.7 ppg. In that same span (again, a "scoring" Wilt), he had playoff series against RUSSELL of 30.5 ppg on a .500 FG%, in a post-season NBA that shot .402 from the field; 33.6 ppg on a .468 FG%, in a post-season NBA that shot .411; 29.2 ppg on a .517 FG% in a post-season NBA that shot .420; 30.1 ppg on a .555 FG%, in a post-season NBA that shot .429; 28.0 ppg on a .509 FG% and in a post-season NBA that shot .440; and 21.6 ppg on a .556 FG% in a post-season NBA that shot .428 overall.

He had FOUR 50+ point games, THREE of which came in MUST-WIN games, and one of those was against RUSSELL. He also had MUST-WIN games of 46-34 (again, against Russell), and a FINALS "must-win" game of 45 points, 27 rebounds, and on 20-27 FG/FGA.

Chamberlain played in 29 post-season series, and was NEVER outrebounded in ANY of them, which included two against Bellamy, two against Kareem, three against Reed, three against Thurmond, three against Lucas, and eight against Russell. In fact, he was CRUSHING those guys. He had series against Reed in which he outrebounded him by over 9 rpg; series against Thurmond in which he outrebounded him by over 6 rpg; and he had series against Russell in which he outrebounded Russell by 9 rpg.

Wilt played in six Finals, and wiped the floor with his opposing center in rebounding in ALL of them. He was outrebounding them by as many as 10 rpg. He also outshot his opposing centers in those six series by margins of .525 to .493; .500 to .399; .600 to .500; .560 to .343; and .625 to .483.

And how about this from a "choking" Chamberlain:
Your post have noting to do with the formula.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Well, how about your boy Kobe.



He plays in seven Finals, two of which are against the lowly Nets (his only two excellent Finals BTW.) He is below average, or downright awful in FIVE of them.
He is even worse in the deciding games. And he is carried to THREE rings by Shaq. In fact, HE is the reason why LA loses in '04 and '08.

GOAT CHOKER....
Sorry brah but Wilt is literally the GOAT choker

Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Karl Malone: 8 + (25.0-24.7) + (25.0-19.6) + (10.1-10.7) + (10.1-9.6) + (3.6-3.2) + (3.6-3.3) + (51.6-46.3) + (51.6-46.0) + (74.2-73.6) + (74.2-67.6) - 0 = 32.4

David Robinson: 6 + (21.1-18.1) + (21.1-13.5) + (10.6-10.6) + (10.6-9.4) + (2.5-2.3) + (2.5-1.5) + (51.8-47.9) + (51.8-49.5) + (73.6-70.8) + (73.6-69.2) - 2 = 30.4

.......GAP.......

Kobe Bryant: 2 + (25.5-25.6) + (25.5-25.3) + (5.3-5.1) + (5.3-5.7) + (4.8-4.7) + (4.8-5.1) + (45.4-44.8) + (45.4-41.2) + (83.8-81.6) + (83.8-84.8) - 5 = 2.7

[LAZERUSS]

Your post have noting to do with the formula.

And as I just proved, his formula is complete garbage.

[Deuce Bigalow]

David Robinson was 33 and 37 when he played in the Finals, post injury and outside of his prime... a "finals drop off", particularly in points, is pretty misleading.
I would agree, with that said though if you would do his career from rookie to '99 it would still have a high rating.

[Deuce Bigalow]

And as I just proved, his formula is complete garbage.
How? Even if you remove the team aspect of HCA losses and rings and only use every stat that was available back then, Wilt would still be #1 by far.

[Rocketswin2013]

How? Even if you remove the team aspect of HCA losses and rings and only use every stat that was available back then, Wilt would still be #1 by far.
It's because it exposes Wilt for the stat padding choker he was.

[The-Legend-24]

Wilt goes from 30 to 18 in the finals, am I reading that right? :oldlol:

"Still GOAT doe"

"Still top 5 doe"

What a joke.

[LAZERUSS]

How? Even if you remove the team aspect of HCA losses and rings and only use every stat that was available back then, Wilt would still be #1 by far.

You mean stats like MULTIPLE 30+ ppg post-seasons? MULTIPLE 37.0+ ppg series? MULTIPLE 30-25 post-seasons? Multiple 50+ point playoff games (three of which came in "must-win" games?) Multiple 50-30 playoff games? Multiple 40-30 playoff games? Multiple 20-20 post-seasons. 13 straight post-seasons of 20+ rpg, with highs of 29 and 30? Multiple playoff series of 20-20-10 .555 FG%? A 30-30 .555 series?

Best player on the floor in the vast majority of his 29 playoff series? Highest rebounder in all 29 playoff series? Only outshot from the field by an opposing center in one playoff series (and that player missed 107 shots to Wilt's 20)? Wiped the floor with his opposing center in the vast majority of his playoff games and series?

Carrying 40-40 teams to game a game seven, one point loss, against 62-18 team, and with a 30-31 .555 series? Taking last place rosters to a 49-26 record in his first year, and losing to a game six to the 59-16 Celtics by two points, in a series in which he averaged 30-26 .500? Taking that same roster, which would collectively shoot .354 in the playoffs, to a game seven, two point loss against a 60-20 team, and with a 34-26 series? Leadin his Sixers to a dominating title and destroying Russell and his eight-time defending champion Celtics with a 22-32-10 .556 series? And then annihilating Thurmond in the Finals, and in Nate's greatest season, en route to a dominating world title? Taking a 48-34 team, and only four months after major knee surgery, to a game seven loss against a 60-22 team, and doing so with a 23-24 .625 FG% series? A year after major knee surgery, and at age 34, statistically outplaying a peak Kareem, and in the deciding game loss, in Milwaukee, receiving a standing ovation as he left the floor? Leading his Lakers to a title the very next season, and by all accounts, outplaying a peak Kareem in the WCF's, and then winning FMVP with a 19-23 .600 series?

Yep...all of the above is solid evidence of a "choker"...


And then compare that the "clutch" Kobe...


99-00
Regular season 22.5 ppg .468 FG%
Finals 15.6 ppg .367 FG%
Last Game of Series .296 FG%

00-01
Regular season 28.5 ppg .464 FG%
Finals 24.6 ppg .415 FG%
Last Game .389

01-02
Regular season 25.2 ppg .469
Finals 26.8 ppg .514
Last Game .438

03-04
Regular season 24.0 ppg .438
Finals 22.6 ppg .381
Last Game .333

07-08
Regular season 28.3 ppg .459
Finals 25.7 ppg .405
Last .318

08-09
Regular season 26.8 ppg .467
Finals 32.4 ppg .430
Last .435

09-10
Regular season 27.0 ppg .456
Finals 28.6 ppg .405
Last .250


Other noteables:


97-98
Swept by Utah 4-0.
Kobe averages 10.0 ppg on a .367 FG%

98-99
Swept by San Antonio 4-0
Last game of the series : Kobe 16 points on a .438 FG%

02-03
Lose to Spurs in WCF's, 4-2.
Last game loss by a score of 110-82 (Kobe with 20 points in a season in which he averaged 30 ppg)

03-04 Finals
Heavily favored Lakers lose to Pistons, 4-1.
In the clinching game five loss Kobe shoots .333 in a 100-87 loss (and LA was down 23 going into 4th quarter)

04-05
Team goes 34-48 and misses playoffs

05-06
Regular season 35.4 ppg .450
Playoffs 27.9 ppg .497
Last game (7) 24 points in a 121-90 loss (after blowing a 3-1 series lead)

06-07
Team goes 42-40
Loses in first round to Suns, 4-1.
Last game of that series, Kobe shoots .394 from the floor

07-08
Lakers are blown out by Celts in Finals.
In game four the Lakers blow a 23 point lead, and lose, in a game in which Kobe shot .316 from the field.

In the clinching game six loss, the Lakers lose by a Finals record margin of 131-92. Kobe shoots .318 from the floor.

10-11
Lakers with HCA are swept by the Mavs, 4-0.
In the clinching game four loss, LA loses 122-86. Kobe shoots .389 from the field.

[Jameerthefear]

Well Wilt IS known as a choker. No surprise here really. I'm glad Bill Simmons unmasked the mystery that is Wilt Chamberlain in his article/book.

[Deuce Bigalow]

You mean stats like MULTIPLE 30+ ppg post-seasons? MULTIPLE 37.0+ ppg series? MULTIPLE 30-25 post-seasons? Multiple 50+ point playoff games (three of which came in "must-win" games?) Multiple 50-30 playoff games? Multiple 40-30 playoff games? Multiple 20-20 post-seasons. 13 straight post-seasons of 20+ rpg, with highs of 29 and 30? Multiple playoff series of 20-20-10 .555 FG%?

Best player on the floor in the vast majority of his 29 playoff series? Highest rebounder in all 29 playoff series? Only outshot from the field by an opposing center in one playoff series (and that player missed 107 shots to Wilt's 20)? Wiped the floor with his opposing center in the vast majority of his playoff games and series?

Carrying 40-40 teams to game a game seven, one point loss, against 62-18 team, and with a 30-31 .555 series? Taking last place rosters to a 49-26 record in his first year, and losing to a game six to the 59-16 Celtics by two points, in a series in which he averaged 30-26 .500? Taking that same roster, which would collectively shoot .354 in the playoffs, to a game seven, two point loss against a 60-20 team, and with a 34-26 series? Leadin his Sixers to a dominating title and destroying Russell and his eight-time defending champion Celtics with a 22-32-10 .556 series? And then annihilating Thurmond in the Finals, and in Nate's greatest season, en route to a dominating world title? Taking a 48-34 team, and only four months after major knee surgery, to a game seven loss against a 60-22 team, and doing so with a 23-24 .625 FG% series? A year after major knee surgery, and at age 34, statistically outplaying a peak Kareem, and in the deciding game loss, in Milwaukee, receiving a standing ovation as he left the floor? Leading his Lakers to a title the very next season, and by all accounts, outplaying a peak Kareem in the WCF's, and then winning FMVP with a 19-23 .600 series?

Yep...all of the above is solid evidence of a "choker"...
His stats drop in the playoffs and finals though. Is that so hard to accept? His play is amazing in the regular season, but can't replicate that in the postseason. You may think he was "amazing" in the playoffs, ok, but he was not as "amazing" in the postseason. This means he plays WORSE in the playoffs. That "worse" level of play may still be good, but its not as good as his regular season level. He has the highest level of choking when you use any measure. Finals team record? Wilt's the worst. HCA record? Wilt's one of the worst. Playoff drops in ppg, rpg, apg, fg%, ft%? Wilt's the worst. Same with the drops in the finals.

[LAZERUSS]

His stats drop in the playoffs and finals though. Is that so hard to accept? His play is amazing in the regular season, but can't replicate that in the postseason. You may think he was "amazing" in the playoffs, ok, but he was not as "amazing" in the postseason. This means he plays WORSE in the playoffs. That "worse" level of play may still be good, but its not as good as his regular season level. He has the highest level of choking when you use any measure. Finals team record? Wilt's the worst. HCA record? Wilt's one of the worst. Playoff drops in ppg, rpg, apg, fg%, ft%? Wilt's the worst. Same with the drops in the finals.

Finals team record? Going to SIX and winning TWO, while Baylor was 0-8? West was 1-9 (and thanks to WILT, he won his only ring with a Finals in which he shot .325 from the floor)?

HCA edge in the Finals? He went 2-2.

HCA edge in the playoffs? Bird had SEVEN losses.

Playoff "drops" in rebounding? He dramatically raised his rebounding, and overwhelmed every center he faced.

FG%? I already showed you Kobe's. FAR WORSE, and his came in post-seasons that shot FAR HIGHER than Wilt's era. Not only that, but Wilt's Finals FG% went UP against his regular season (.560 to .540...in leagues that shot an eFG% of about .435 in that span)

And of course, you IGNORE the fact that Wilt DRAMATICALLY reduced the efficiencies of his OPPOSING centers...Russell, Thurmond, Bellamy, and even a peak Kareem,all while crushing them on the glass.

[Deuce Bigalow]

@Laz you're cherrypicking Kobe's stats, use everything.

Kobe's regular season/playoffs/finals stats

ppg/rpg/apg/spg/bpg/tov/fg%/ft%
SEASON: 25.5 / 5.3 / 4.8 / 1.5 / 0.5 / 3.0 / 45.4 / 83.8
PLAYOFF: 25.6 / 5.1 / 4.7 / 1.4 / 0.7 / 2.9 / 44.8 / 81.6
FINALS: 25.3 / 5.7 / 5.1 / 1.8 / 0.9 / 3.3 / 41.2 / 84.8

Kobe's ppg stays the same but his rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, and ft% go up in the Finals. His blocks nearly double.

[moe94]

@Laz you're cherrypicking Kobe's stats, use everything.

Kobe's regular season/playoffs/finals stats

ppg/rpg/apg/spg/bpg/tov/fg%/ft%
REGULAR: 25.5 / 5.3 / 4.8 / 1.5 / 0.5 / 3.0 / 45.4 / 83.8
PLAYOFF: 25.6 / 5.1 / 4.7 / 1.4 / 0.7 / 2.9 / 44.8 / 81.6
FINALS: 25.3 / 5.7 / 5.1 / 1.8 / 0.9 / 3.3 / 41.2 / 84.8

Where do you get your Finals stats from?

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, here were Wilt's actual numbers in his Finals seasons:

63-64:
Regular season: 36.9 ppg, 22.3 rpg, .524 FG%
Finals: (against RUSSELL) 29.2 ppg, 27.8 rpg, .517 FG%
Russell in that series: 10.2 ppg, 25.2 rpg, .386 FG%

66-67:
Regular season: 24.1 ppg, 24.2 rpg, .683 FG%
Finals: 17.5 ppg, 28.5 rpg, .560 FG%
Thurmond: 14.3 ppg, 26.7 rpg, .343 FG%

68-69:
Regular season: 20.5 ppg, 21.1 rpg, .583 FG%
Finals: 11.7 ppg, 25.0 rpg, .500 FG%
Russell: 9.2 ppg, 21.4 rpg, .398 FG%.

69-70:
Before blowing out his knee in game nine: 32.2 ppg, 20. rpg, .579 FG%
After returning in the regular season: 12.7 ppg, 12.0 rpg, .500 FG%
Finals: 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, .625 FG%
MVP Reed: 23.0 ppg, 10.5 rpg, .483 FG%

71-72:
Regular season: 14.8 ppg, 19.2 rpg, .649 FG%
Finals: 19.4 ppg, 23.2 rpg, .600 FG%
Lucas: 20.0 ppg, 9.2 rpg, .500 FG%

72-73:
Regular season: 13.2 ppg, 18.6 rpg, .727 FG%
Finals: 11.6 ppg, 18.6 rpg, .525 FG%
Reed: 16.4 ppg, 9.2 rpg, .493 FG%


He faced a HOF starting center in every series, and the numbers are there...he outplayed them in every series.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Finals team record? Going to SIX and winning TWO, while Baylor was 0-8? West was 1-9 (and thanks to WILT, he won his only ring with a Finals in which he shot .325 from the floor)?

HCA edge in the Finals? He went 2-2.

HCA edge in the playoffs? Bird had SEVEN losses.

Playoff "drops" in rebounding? He dramatically raised his rebounding, and overwhelmed every center he faced.

FG%? I already showed you Kobe's. FAR WORSE, and his came in post-seasons that shot FAR HIGHER than Wilt's era.

And of course, you IGNORE the fact that Wilt DRAMATICALLY reduced the efficiencies of his OPPOSING centers...Russell, Thurmond, Bellamy, and even a peak Kareem,all while crushing them on the glass.
Baylor 0-7 and West 1-8 fine, but who's next? Wilt was 2-4 which is one of the worst.

2-2 in the Finals with HCA? That's awful lol he list half his Finals HCA series.

Bird has 7, but he won 24 while Wilt won 15, percentage wise Wilt is lower but forget percentage wise, 5 is a lot.

Wilt's postseason FG% drops by nearly 2%, Kobe's doesn't even drop 1%, in the Finals it drops a lot but literaly everything else goes up for Kobe in the finals with his ppg staying the same.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Where do you get your Finals stats from?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=320140

[Deuce Bigalow]

BTW, here were Wilt's actual numbers in his Finals seasons:

63-64:
Regular season: 36.9 ppg, [/b]22.3 rpg, .524 FG%
Finals: (against RUSSELL) 29.2 ppg, 27.8 rpg, .517 FG%
Russell in that series: 10.2 ppg, 25.2 rpg, .386 FG%
Nice an 8 PPG drop :lol

66-67:
Regular season: 24.1 ppg, 24.2 rpg, .683 FG%
Finals: 17.5 ppg, 28.5 rpg, .560 FG%
Thurmond: 14.3 ppg, 26.7 rpg, .343 FG%
A 7 PPG drop and his FG% drops by 12% :lol

68-69:
Regular season: 20.5 ppg, 21.1 rpg, .583 FG%
Finals: 11.7 ppg, 25.0 rpg, .500 FG%
Russell: 9.2 ppg, 21.4 rpg, .398 FG%
PPG nearly drops in HALF and FG drops by 8% Just embarrassing :roll:

69-70:
Before blowing out his knee in game nine: 32.2 ppg, 20. rpg, .579 FG%
After returning in the regular season: 12.7 ppg, 12.0 rpg, .500 FG%
Finals: 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, .625 FG%
MVP Reed: 23.0 ppg, 10.5 rpg, .483 FG%
Outplayed by Reed :lol

71-72:
Regular season: 14.8 ppg, 19.2 rpg, .649 FG%
Finals: 19.4 ppg, 23.2 rpg, .600 FG%
Lucas: 20.0 ppg, 9.2 rpg, .500 FG%
His only Finals where he didn't drop off :eek:

72-73:
Regular season: 13.2 ppg, 18.6 rpg, .727 FG%
Finals: 11.6 ppg, 18.6 rpg, .525 FG%
Reed: 16.4 ppg, 9.2 rpg, .493 FG%
Outplayed by Reed again :lol A FG% drop of 20% :eek: :lol That must be the record FG% drop

[Deuce Bigalow]

Chris Bosh?
Forgot to do him. Just checked his regular season and playoff stats and they drop big across the board. Just need his finals stats.

Anyone have his Bosh's finals stats btw?

[aj1987]

Nice an 8 PPG drop :lol

A 7 PPG drop and his FG% drops by 12% :lol

PPG nearly drops in HALF and FG drops by 8% Just embarrassing :roll:

Outplayed by Reed :lol

His only Finals where he didn't drop off :eek:

Outplayed by Reed again :lol A FG% drop of 20% :eek: :lol That must be the record FG% drop

Inb4 in a league that averaged xxxyyyzz and his teammates shot #####.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Inb4 in a league that averaged xxxyyyzz and his teammates shot #####.
Bbbut he took so and so within an eyelash of winning a ring.

[jcsrplumply]

10.1 Bron in Advanced.

[R.I.P.]

I give an A for effort. Never in ISH history has somebody given this much effort to post something this stupid. :bowdown:

[jcsrplumply]

Bill Russell probably the lowest if we use the Advanced one. I might be mistaken though.
Tried it and got -27.8

[LAZERUSS]

Bbbut he took so and so within an eyelash of winning a ring.

Well, using this ridiculous ranking, a player is actualy punished more for losing a game seven by two points in the Finals (and with his teammates puking all over the floor), than if he is swept in the first round.

Furthermore, it doesn't reward brilliant play in previous rounds. Nor does it distinguish between being horribly outplayed by an opposing player in a game seven, or even a series, as long as that player "ups" his totals over regular season average, and his teammates do enough for him to win that series. Meanwhile, if a player's number decline, no matter how impressive his play was, and no matter who he was facing in the Finals, he "chokes."


Of course, this "rating system" came from the same goofball who has repeatedly claimed that Wilt choked in the post-season. He was a "choker" in his eyes even when he took a 40-40 team to a game seven, one point loss, against the six-time defending 62-18 Celtics, and against the greatest defensive center whoever played the game, and did so with a series in which he averaged 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, and shot .555 from the field, all of which included a game seven of 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds.

On top of that, the above doesn't even count in his "system" except to the extent that Wilt didn't win a ring that year.

And I guess luckily for Chamberlain, his massive "decline" in his 61-62 EDF's against Boston didn't hurt him, either, since it was the EDF's (except to the same extent that he didn't win a ring that year.) That was the season in which he averaged 50.4 ppg, but "plummeted" to a 34 ppg EDF's (along with 26 rpg), in a series in which his team lost a game seven to the Celtics by two points, and in a post-season in which Wilt's teammates, basically the same last place roster he inherited two years earlier, collectively shot .354 in that post-season.

And once again, this "system" doesn't account for the opposing team, or opposing player. Nor how he fared againt that team and player during the regular season. For instance, in Wilt's 63-64 season, he averaged 36.9 ppg, 22.3 rpg, and shot .524 from the field. However, against Russell in nine regular season games, he "only" averaged 29.1 ppg, 26.9 rpg, and shot .530 from the field. In the Finals against Russell, Chamberlain averaged 29.2 ppg, 27.8 rpg, and shot .517. He basically "upped" his game against Russell in the Finals (at worst, he equaled it), but, since his scoring dropped from his overall regular season average, he gets punished. Oh, and his previous playoff series against the Hawks, when he put up a 38.6 ppg, 23.0 rpg, .559 series...means nothing.

[LAZERUSS]

I just noticed that OP has changed his "formula" to include playoffs. Originally it was just the Finals. Of course, he probably did it after I shelled Kobe's Finals' shooting, which is unquestionably the worst by any legitimate Top-10 candidate, and by a huge margin.

And look at poor Oscar in his "system." The man toiled for mostly poor rosters in the prime of his career, often missing the playoff altogether, and when he finally played with a good team, it came in the last four years of his career, and well past his prime. So, he too, is a big-time "choker."

[navy]

Lazeruss, you do realize that this thread was to bait you which you gladly hooked on to...

[LAZERUSS]

Lazeruss, you do realize that this thread was to bait you which you gladly hooked on too...

Oh of course.

This guy is the "Sybil" of ISH.

I still enjoy shredding it though.

[navy]

Just making sure lol.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Oscar Robertson: 3 + (25.7-22.2) + (25.7-16.3) + (7.5-6.7) + (7.5-4.2) + (9.5-8.9) + (9.5-8.7) + (48.5-46.0) + (48.5-47.3) + (83.8-85.5) + (83.8-80.4) - 1 = 25.8

Chris Bosh: 2 + (19.2-15.8) + (19.2-14.8) + (8.7-8.0) + (8.7-8.5) + (2.0-1.4) + (2.0-1.2) + (49.8-46.4) + (49.8-44.0) + (80.0-80.7) + (80.0-79.2) - 2 = 19.4

Lebron James: 3 + (27.5-28.1) + (27.5-23.4) + (7.2-8.6) + (7.2-9.0) + (6.9-6.7) + (6.9-7.0) + (49.6-47.2) + (49.6-44.1) + (74.7-74.9) + (74.7-73.7) - 2 = 10.1

Elgin Baylor: 1 + (27.4-27.0) + (27.4-26.4) + (13.5-12.9) + (13.5-13.5) + (4.3-4.0) + (4.3-3.3) + (43.1-43.9) + (43.1-42.7) + (78.0-76.9) + (78.0-75.5) = 7.5

Kobe Bryant: 2 + (25.5-25.6) + (25.5-25.3) + (5.3-5.1) + (5.3-5.7) + (4.8-4.7) + (4.8-5.1) + (45.4-44.8) + (45.4-41.2) + (83.8-81.6) + (83.8-84.8) - 5 = 2.7

[Deuce Bigalow]

Bill Russell probably the lowest if we use the Advanced one. I might be mistaken though.
Tried it and got -27.8
That would be cool helping me out but I'm looking for the opposite kind of numbers :lol

[Rocketswin2013]

I really don't see how anybody could be delusional enough to dispute Chamberlain's rating...... It literally takes all percentages and base stats into account......... :banghead:

[Deuce Bigalow]

I need to find all the players that would have a positive rating of at least 10 to complete the choking list. Some help would be cool, the formula's in the OP and here are Finals stats: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=320140. You minus regular season average with playoff and finals average.

[moe94]

Is this different from boiling it down? What is this called? Deuce! Show me the way.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Well, using this ridiculous ranking, a player is actualy punished more for losing a game seven by two points in the Finals (and with his teammates puking all over the floor), than if he is swept in the first round.

Furthermore, it doesn't reward brilliant play in previous rounds. Nor does it distinguish between being horribly outplayed by an opposing player in a game seven, or even a series, as long as that player "ups" his totals over regular season average, and his teammates do enough for him to win that series. Meanwhile, if a player's number decline, no matter how impressive his play was, and no matter who he was facing in the Finals, he "chokes."


Of course, this "rating system" came from the same goofball who has repeatedly claimed that Wilt choked in the post-season. He was a "choker" in his eyes even when he took a 40-40 team to a game seven, one point loss, against the six-time defending 62-18 Celtics, and against the greatest defensive center whoever played the game, and did so with a series in which he averaged 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, and shot .555 from the field, all of which included a game seven of 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds.

On top of that, the above doesn't even count in his "system" except to the extent that Wilt didn't win a ring that year.

And I guess luckily for Chamberlain, his massive "decline" in his 61-62 EDF's against Boston didn't hurt him, either, since it was the EDF's (except to the same extent that he didn't win a ring that year.) That was the season in which he averaged 50.4 ppg, but "plummeted" to a 34 ppg EDF's (along with 26 rpg), in a series in which his team lost a game seven to the Celtics by two points, and in a post-season in which Wilt's teammates, basically the same last place roster he inherited two years earlier, collectively shot .354 in that post-season.

And once again, this "system" doesn't account for the opposing team, or opposing player. Nor how he fared againt that team and player during the regular season. For instance, in Wilt's 63-64 season, he averaged 36.9 ppg, 22.3 rpg, and shot .524 from the field. However, against Russell in nine regular season games, he "only" averaged 29.1 ppg, 26.9 rpg, and shot .530 from the field. In the Finals against Russell, Chamberlain averaged 29.2 ppg, 27.8 rpg, and shot .517. He basically "upped" his game against Russell in the Finals (at worst, he equaled it), but, since his scoring dropped from his overall regular season average, he gets punished. Oh, and his previous playoff series against the Hawks, when he put up a 38.6 ppg, 23.0 rpg, .559 series...means nothing.
The advanced rating does not punish you for losing in the Finals, but it does for losing a playoff series with Home court advantage, drops in playoffs stats compared to the regular season, drops in finals stats compared to the regular season, and rewards you for winning a ring.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Is this different from boiling it down? What is this called? Deuce! Show me the way.
Idk just choking rating maybe?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Using your formula you get funky results.

Maybe points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks + the playoff series you've won (how many times you've been out of the first, second, third round and so on).

Interesting discussion if done correctly :cheers:

[20Four]

Jason Collins shouldn't he be at the top of "chokers"? If yall know what I mean?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Ray Allen: 1 + (18.9-17.0) + (18.9-14.9) + (4.1-3.8) + (4.1-3.8) + (3.4-2.8) + (3.4-1.9) + (45.2-44.5) + (45.2-45.5) + (89.4-88.1) + (89.4-91.2) - 2 = 7.5

[Deuce Bigalow]

John Stockton: 7 + (13.1-13.4) + (13.1-12.3) + (2.7-3.3) + (2.7-3.3) + (10.5-10.1) + (10.5-8.8) + (51.5-47.3) + (51.5-50.0) + (82.6-81.0) + (82.6-81.1) - 0 = 17.2

Paul Pierce: 2 + (21.3-20.9) + (21.3-19.3) + (6.0-6.4) + (6.0-4.9) + (3.8-4.0) + (3.8-4.5) + (44.7-41.9) + (44.7-43.5) + (80.7-83.4) + (80.7-84.4) - 1 = 0.8

[Deuce Bigalow]

Jerry West: 2 + (27.0-29.1) + (27.0-30.5) + (5.8-5.6) + (5.8-5.0) + (6.7-6.3) + (6.7-5.3) + (47.4-46.9) + (47.4-45.9) + (81.4-80.5) + (81.4-82.6) - 1 = -0.1 Mr. Clutch :bowdown:

Kevin Garnett: 2 + (18.7-19.2) + (18.7-16.6) + (10.3-11.1) + (10.3-9.0) + (3.9-3.5) + (3.9-3.0) + (49.7-47.7) + (49.7-46.6) + (79.0-79.1) + (79.0-81.8) - 1 = 6.6

Dwight Howard: 2 + (18.3-19.7) + (18.3-15.4) + (12.9-14.1) + (12.9-15.2) + (1.5-1.4) + (1.5-2.2) + (57.8-60.1) + (57.8-48.8) + (57.5-58.0) + (57.5-60.3) - 0 = 2.8

[riseagainst]

michael jordan: 0 + (-3.3) + (-3.5) -6 = -12.8

:bowdown:

:bowdown:

GOAT

[Deuce Bigalow]

Nice stat. Better than Lebron. Not better than Wade though :rockon: :rockon:
Yup

Dwyane Wade: 2 + (24.4-23.7) + (24.4-25.7) + (5.0-5.5) + (5.0-6.1) + (6.0-5.2) + (6.0-4.7) + (49.2-47.6) + (49.2-48.2) + (76.6-77.6) + (76.6-75.5) - 3 = 1.6

[Deuce Bigalow]

Larry Bird: 7 + (24.3-23.8) + (24.3-23.1) + (10.0-10.3) + (10.0-11.6) + (6.3-6.5) + (6.3-6.0) + (49.6-47.2) + (49.6-45.6) + (88.6-89.0) + (88.6-87.2) - 3 = 11.3

Nooooo Larry

[Pointguard]

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings


Just a couple of notes about clutch/choking and adpating that aren't included.

1. Game sevens and elimination games apply to the meaning of the word more than anything in your formula.

If a player is the best player in those games he has to get rewarded.

2. Players are not clutch or choking in comparisons with their career numbers. Ray Allen, Stockton, Bird, West, Robert Horry, Isiah and Pierce were all very clutch players. All should have very high clutch ratings but the formula will definitely do them wrong. Clutch/choking is related to in game situations or even whole games - not off whole seasons.

McAdoo, Wilt, Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett, Isiah Thomas and Rodman were used differently when they started going deep into the playoffs vs their RS peaks. Yet all were key in winning it all in their role. That should never be used against them. But it is critical in your formula.

3. Player functionality as per coach, has to be factored in. As above; Wilt, KG, Ray Allen, Oscar, McAdoo, Rodman, Stockton, Isiah and Kareem were used very differently than they were in their primes when they started winning - (Isiah scores well in your formula but he too was off prime). If you are a defensive keg, a critical floor spacer, a true boards-man, a point guard that slows the game down and are absolutely critical for the win, it shouldn't be used against you.

4. Clutch/Choking is largely perceptional. Kareem in his prime while winning 5 MVP's and usually the best player in the game easily, only once (when they were one of the best defensive teams ever) in 10 seasons was clutch enough to flip enough clutch plays to win it all (like Cowens, Walton, Frazier, Reed, Hondo and Barry did) before Magic came to the Lakers. Kareem was never known to be clutch before Magic. Magic doesn't subscribe to your formula but he executed more key plays, in clutch situations than anybody by a mile save Jordan. Even at the level of hitting mega clutch shots Magic is top three, much less creating something out of nothing and controlling the game.

5. Why not reward a guy if he leads the series in a main category. Include defense. If Ben Wallace loses confidence for a minute Shaq destroys them. If KG isn't convinced that "nobody gets to the rim," Kobe starts dunking on them like he did SA. Lebron was super clutch to me because he lead his team in every category twice - he did everything to win those games. Lebron just flat out choked in 2010.

6. Clutch is an additive quality based on the ability to do something that affects change in a positive way in game/series. In high pressure situations, against the best defenses most players miss more, or choke according to you. Don't let haterism rule you.

7. Context is key. Kobe has trouble with Eastern Conference defense because they play a different style. Kobe wasn't used to doubles when Detroit hit him up that way. Kobe was major clutch out West tho. He wasn't choking, which is what your formula measures, he just had trouble adapting like all young players go thru.

8. Centers can't adapt like wing players can. As defense came to the forefront, Kareem, Malone and Wilt could not adapt quickly or to some teams priorities to throw the kitchen sink at them without a key offensive player to help. They really needed a stand up player to relieve the packing it down low that the playoffs had. And the coach has to have thoroughly prepared the team for the taking of the ball out of the centers hand.

[jcsrplumply]

Larry Bird: 7 + (24.3-23.8) + (24.3-23.1) + (10.0-10.3) + (10.0-11.6) + (6.3-6.5) + (6.3-6.0) + (49.6-47.2) + (49.6-45.6) + (88.6-89.0) + (88.6-87.2) - 3 = 11.3

Bill Russell: 1 + (15.1-16.2) + (15.1 - 16.4) + (22.5 - 24.9) + (22.5 - 23.9) + (4.3 - 4.7) + ( 4.3 - 4) + ( 44% - 43%) + ( 44% - 47.1%) + (56.1% - 60.3%) + (56.1% - 61.3%) - 11 = -27.8

:D

I also feel like game winning shot % should be a factor.

[Deuce Bigalow]

No surprise who's at #1 folks.

[LAZERUSS]

No surprise who's at #1 folks.

Yep, the famous Deuce "formula" which ranks THIS guy as the #1 CHOKER of all-time...


Wilt's numbers in those 23 games...13 of which came against HOF starting centers.

12-11 W-L record

31.1 ppg (Regular season career average was 30.1 ppg)
26.1 rpg (Regular season career average was 22.9 rpg)
3.4 apg (Regular season career average was 4.4 apg)
.540 FG% (Regular season career average was .540 FG%)


3 games of 50+ points

5 games of 40+ points (including a Finals 40+ elimination game)

13 games of 30+ points

6 games of 30+ rebounds

20 games of 20+ rebounds

ELEVATED across the board...

And yet, somehow THIS guy doesn't "win" that award???...


Kobe: 18 elimination games(8-10):
22.0 ppg, 5.7 reb, 3.4 ast, 1.0 stl, 0.67 blk, 41.6% FG, 77.6% FT, 25.9% 3pt


DRASTIC DECLINES across the board...


Nor does it address these major HOLES in his half-baked theories...


And that doesn't include the fact that Chamberlain was wiping the floor with the likes of Russell, Reed, and Kareem in those games, either.

Sure doesn't speak well for that half-baked formula does it?

Of course, a formula that considers a decline in scoring from 50 ppg down to 35 ppg, as a NEGATIVE (and rewards a player who raises his ppg from 10 to 15 ppg) is really a reach. Nor does that ridiculous formula take into account the DEFENSIVE impact of a player, either. A Wilt who was outscoring his opposing centers by a 30-10 ppg margin in his 11 "at the limit" playoff games, doesn't get credit for that DEFENSE. Or a Wilt who held outshot Thurmond by margins of .500 to .392; .611 to .373; and .560 to .343...gets punished because his regular season averages were higher in two of those series. Same against Russell, when he outshot him by margins of .468 to .399; .500 to .397; .517 to .386; .555 to .447; and .556 to .358 (but gets punished because in only one did he raise his numbers over his regular season average.) Or holding Kareem to two series of .481 and .457 shooting, in seasons in which KAJ shot .577 and .574 in the regular season.

Nor does it take into account Wilt oushooting his opposing centers in nearly everyone of his 29 post-season series, AND, outrebounding them in EVERY one.

And a Chamberlain, who averaged 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, and shot .515 (in post-season NBAs that shot .420 in that span) in his first 67 playoff games...is considered a "choker" by that formula because his numbers declined from his regular season averages...DESPITE the fact that he faced RUSSELL and the greatest dynasty in NBA history in 35 of those games, and Thurmond in six more (just ask KAJ about Thurmond.)

Or that Wilt's scoring numbers are completely distorted because he only played 52 playoff games, out of his 160, in his "scoring" seasons. And that he faced a HOF starting center in 105 of those 160 games, and a multiple all-star in another 26.

Or that his formula doesn't punish you if your team loses in the first round, but it clearly does if you put up huge first round numbers, and then decline as you move to the Finals. Nor does the formula take into account how a player's TEAMMATES perform. Even if a player plays well in a playoff series, but his teammates puke all over the floor, and his team loses with HCA, well, it goes against HIM.

And one more time, he faced RUSSELL in EIGHT playoff series. Look up MJ's scoring and FG%'s in the FOUR series he had against the "Bad Boys" from '88 thru '91 (and really, the Pistons were a shell in that last one); or Shaq's scoring and FG%'s in his FIVE series against the Spurs from '99 thru '04. And how about Kareem's HUGE decline in his FIVE playoff series against Thurmond and Wilt, when his ppg dropped from nearly 33 ppg in the regular season, down to 26 ppg in those five series, and his FG% dropped from his regular season average of .563 in that span, down to .450 against Thurmond and Wilt.

Sorry, but that "formula" is a POS.

Again... a POS!

[Deuce Bigalow]

Yep, the famous Deuce "formula" which ranks THIS guy as the #1 CHOKER of all-time...



And yet, somehow THIS guy doesn't "win" that award...



Nor does it address these major HOLES in his half-baked theories...



Again... a POS!
Yup. Comes as no surprise who came out on top. I don't think anyone was surprised, it was expected.

[DFish24]

Wilt just dropped out of my top 10.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Basic or advanced, same guy comes out on top.

[navy]

Basic or advanced, same guy comes out on top.
Shameless bump of own thread. :oldlol:

[JohnFreeman]

Who is number one choker? One of the worst threads ever.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Shameless bump of own thread. :oldlol:
Shit I forgot James Harden...

[SexSymbol]

One of the best threads ever, haters and stans can't accept it.
Bravo, Deuce.

And yeah, Wilt is really pathetic, he just couldn't be a good leader and was a circus puppet trying to get as many stats as he can so in future generations an old ******, who is using most of his retirement home's allowed internet time on cyber jerking dead Wilt's dick. I mean what else would he do when his relatives left him in such a lovable place. Must be sad knowing you'll die alone and the government will pay for your funeral

[Deuce Bigalow]

Not even James Harden could surpass Wilt in this department.

James Harden: 1 + (18.0-16.6) + (18.0-12.4) + (4.0-5.0) + (4.0-4.8) + (3.9-3.7) + (3.9-3.6) + (44.5-42.1) + (44.5-37.5) + (84.9-84.5) + (84.9-79.2) - 0 = 22.2

[Psileas]

Advanced domination formula: playoff ppg+playoff rpg+playoff apg+playoff spg+playoff bpg

Jordan: 33.4+6.4+5.7+2.1+.9=48.5
Magic: 19.5+7.7+12.3+1.9+.3=41.7
Bird: 23.8+10.3+6.5+1.8+.9=43.3
Russell: 16.2+24.7+4.7=45.8 (unofficially: above 50, closer to 55)
Kareem: 24.3+10.5+3.2+1.0+2.4=41.4 (unofficially: a bit higher)
Wilt: 22.5+24.5+4.2=51.2 (unofficially: close to 60)

Wilt, Playoff GOAT. Accept it, move on. :rockon:

[-23-]

Advanced domination formula: playoff ppg+playoff rpg+playoff apg+playoff spg+playoff bpg

Jordan: 33.4+6.4+5.7+2.1+.9=48.5
Magic: 19.5+7.7+12.3+1.9+.3=41.7
Bird: 23.8+10.3+6.5+1.8+.9=43.3
Russell: 16.2+24.7+4.7=45.8 (unofficially: above 50, closer to 55)
Kareem: 24.3+10.5+3.2+1.0+2.4=41.4 (unofficially: a bit higher)
Wilt: 22.5+24.5+4.2=51.2 (unofficially: close to 60)

Wilt, Playoff GOAT. Accept it, move on. :rockon:

Yeah, you're a ****ing moron if you think Wilt > MJ in the playoffs.

[LAZERUSS]

Advanced domination formula: playoff ppg+playoff rpg+playoff apg+playoff spg+playoff bpg

Jordan: 33.4+6.4+5.7+2.1+.9=48.5
Magic: 19.5+7.7+12.3+1.9+.3=41.7
Bird: 23.8+10.3+6.5+1.8+.9=43.3
Russell: 16.2+24.7+4.7=45.8 (unofficially: above 50, closer to 55)
Kareem: 24.3+10.5+3.2+1.0+2.4=41.4 (unofficially: a bit higher)
Wilt: 22.5+24.5+4.2=51.2 (unofficially: close to 60)

Wilt, Playoff GOAT. Accept it, move on. :rockon:

GOAT player, AND... GOAT FORMULA!

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

:applause:

[red1]

this might be the most sophisticated trolling I have ever seen

[sd3035]

At least Wilt really was the best at something :lol

[LAZERUSS]

At least Wilt really was the best at something :lol

The NBA RECORD BOOK.

[Asukal]

The NBA RECORD BOOK.

and choking. :applause:

[SexSymbol]

and choking. :applause:
ba dum tss

[LAZERUSS]

and choking. :applause:


I have often said, show me a player who averages 31.1 ppg, 26.4 rpg, shoots .540 from the field (in post-seasons that shot .435), blocks 8+ shots, and holds his opposing centers to horrific efficiencies, in MUST WIN games...

and I'll show you a choker.

Only two greater scoring "chokers" in NBA history...

Lebron (31.9 ppg), and MJ (31.3)...

GOAT CHOKERS...


Give me a guy like Kobe in the Finals any say of the week...


99-00
Regular season 22.5 ppg .468 FG%
Finals 15.6 ppg .367 FG%
Last Game of Series .296 FG%

00-01
Regular season 28.5 ppg .464 FG%
Finals 24.6 ppg .415 FG%
Last Game of Series .389 FG%

01-02
Regular season 25.2 ppg .469
Finals 26.8 ppg .514 FG%
Last Game of Series .438 FG%

03-04
Regular season 24.0 ppg .438 FG%
Finals 22.6 ppg .381 FG%
Last Game of Series .333 FG%

07-08
Regular season 28.3 ppg .459 FG%
Finals 25.7 ppg .405 FG%
Last Game of Series .318 FG%

08-09
Regular season 26.8 ppg .467 FG%
Finals 32.4 ppg .430 FG%
Last Game of Series .435 FG%

09-10
Regular season 27.0 ppg .456 FG%
Finals 28.6 ppg .405 FG%
Last Game of Series .250 FG%


Other noteables:


97-98
Swept by Utah 4-0.
Kobe averages 10.0 ppg on a .367 FG%

98-99
Swept by San Antonio 4-0
Last game of the series : Kobe 16 points on a .438 FG%

02-03
Lose to Spurs in WCF's, 4-2.
Last game loss by a score of 110-82 (Kobe with 20 points in a season in which he averaged 30 ppg)

03-04 Finals
Heavily favored Lakers lose to Pistons, 4-1.
In the clinching game five loss Kobe shoots .333 in a 100-87 loss (and LA was down 23 going into 4th quarter)

04-05
Team goes 34-48 and misses playoffs

05-06
Regular season 35.4 ppg .450
Playoffs 27.9 ppg .497
Last game (7) 24 points in a 121-90 loss (after blowing a 3-1 series lead)

06-07
Team goes 42-40
Loses in first round to Suns, 4-1.
Last game of that series, Kobe shoots .394 from the floor

07-08
Lakers are blown out by Celts in Finals.
In game four the Lakers blow a 23 point lead, and lose, in a game in which Kobe shot .316 from the field.
In the clinching game six loss, the Lakers lose by a Finals record margin of 131-92. Kobe shoots .318 from the floor.

10-11
Lakers with HCA are swept by the Mavs, 4-0.
In the clinching game four loss, LA loses 122-86. Kobe shoots .389 from the field.

[Jameerthefear]

I have often said, show me a player who averages 31.1 ppg, 26.4 rpg, shoots .540 from the field (in post-seasons that shot .435), blocks 8+ shots, and holds his opposing centers to horrific efficiencies, in MUST WIN games...

and I'll show you a choker.

Only two greater scoring "chokers" in NBA history...

Lebron (31.9 ppg), and MJ (31.3)...

GOAT CHOKERS...


Give me a guy like Kobe in the Finals any say of the week...
I didn't read none of that shit lol

[LAZERUSS]

I couldnt reed noone of dat shit lol

I know...

[Jameerthefear]

I know...
You saying that cuz I'm black? Reported.

[deja vu]

Advanced domination formula: playoff ppg+playoff rpg+playoff apg+playoff spg+playoff bpg

Jordan: 33.4+6.4+5.7+2.1+.9=48.5
Magic: 19.5+7.7+12.3+1.9+.3=41.7
Bird: 23.8+10.3+6.5+1.8+.9=43.3
Russell: 16.2+24.7+4.7=45.8 (unofficially: above 50, closer to 55)
Kareem: 24.3+10.5+3.2+1.0+2.4=41.4 (unofficially: a bit higher)
Wilt: 22.5+24.5+4.2=51.2 (unofficially: close to 60)

Wilt, Playoff GOAT. Accept it, move on. :rockon:
2 rings. :lol (only 1 in his prime)

[LAZERUSS]

You saying that cuz I'm black? Reported.

Hell, I thought that was you in your avatar.

Sorry.

[LAZERUSS]

2 rings. :lol (only 1 in his prime)

Yeah...barely losing game seven's to teams with FAR more HOF players is a disgrace.

[Rocketswin2013]

All of his stats dropped across the board. GOAT choker.

[funnystuff]

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Karl Malone: 8 + (25.0-24.7) + (25.0-19.6) + (10.1-10.7) + (10.1-9.6) + (3.6-3.2) + (3.6-3.3) + (51.6-46.3) + (51.6-46.0) + (74.2-73.6) + (74.2-67.6) - 0 = 32.4

David Robinson: 6 + (21.1-18.1) + (21.1-13.5) + (10.6-10.6) + (10.6-9.4) + (2.5-2.3) + (2.5-1.5) + (51.8-47.9) + (51.8-49.5) + (73.6-70.8) + (73.6-69.2) - 2 = 30.4

Oscar Robertson: 3 + (25.7-22.2) + (25.7-16.3) + (7.5-6.7) + (7.5-4.2) + (9.5-8.9) + (9.5-8.7) + (48.5-46.0) + (48.5-47.3) + (83.8-85.5) + (83.8-80.4) - 1 = 25.8

James Harden: 1 + (18.0-16.6) + (18.0-12.4) + (4.0-5.0) + (4.0-4.8) + (3.9-3.7) + (3.9-3.6) + (44.5-42.1) + (44.5-37.5) + (84.9-84.5) + (84.9-79.2) - 0 = 22.2

Chris Bosh: 2 + (19.2-15.8) + (19.2-14.8) + (8.7-8.0) + (8.7-8.5) + (2.0-1.4) + (2.0-1.2) + (49.8-46.4) + (49.8-44.0) + (80.0-80.7) + (80.0-79.2) - 2 = 19.4

John Stockton: 7 + (13.1-13.4) + (13.1-12.3) + (2.7-3.3) + (2.7-3.3) + (10.5-10.1) + (10.5-8.8) + (51.5-47.3) + (51.5-50.0) + (82.6-81.0) + (82.6-81.1) - 0 = 17.2

Larry Bird: 7 + (24.3-23.8) + (24.3-23.1) + (10.0-10.3) + (10.0-11.6) + (6.3-6.5) + (6.3-6.0) + (49.6-47.2) + (49.6-45.6) + (88.6-89.0) + (88.6-87.2) - 3 = 11.3

Lebron James: 3 + (27.5-28.1) + (27.5-23.4) + (7.2-8.6) + (7.2-9.0) + (6.9-6.7) + (6.9-7.0) + (49.6-47.2) + (49.6-44.1) + (74.7-74.9) + (74.7-73.7) - 2 = 10.1

---------------------------------------------------------------

Basic formula: Finals losses + playoff ppg dropoff + finals ppg drop off - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 4 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) - 2 = 21.1

Oscar Robertson: 1 + (25.7-22.2) + (25.7-16.3) - 1 = 12.9

Karl Malone: 3 + (25.0-24.7) + (25.0-19.6) - 0 = 8.7

David Robinson: 0 + (21.1-18.1) + (21.1-13.5) - 2 = 8.6

Elgin Baylor: 7 + (27.4-27.0) + (27.4-26.4) - 0 = 8.4

Chris Bosh: 1 + (19.2-15.8) + (19.2-14.8) - 2 = 6.8

Ray Allen: 1 + (18.9-17.0) + (18.9-14.9) - 2 = 4.9

Lebron James: 2 + (27.5-28.1) + (27.5-23.4) - 2 = 3.5
There he is! Almost got disappointed for a sec.


Rent free!!

[Deuce Bigalow]

Yeah...barely losing game seven's to teams with FAR more HOF players is a disgrace.
Wilt played with more top 50 greatest players of alltime than Russell.

Wilt (6) - Arizin, Baylor, Cunningham, Greer, Thurmond, West
Russell (4) - Cousy, Havlicek, Jones, Sharman

[ArbitraryWater]

I know...

looooooooool

laz trolling now... sneaky ****

[Deuce Bigalow]

"Russell played with four members of the NBA's Top 50 at 50 (Havlicek, Cousy, Sharman, and Sam Jones); Wilt played with six members (Baylor, West, Greer, Cunningham, Arizin, and Thurmond). And Russell's teammates from 1957 to 1969 were selected to twenty-six All-Star games, while Wilt's teammates from 1960 to 1973 were selected to twenty-four. Let's never mention the supporting-cast card again with Russell and Chamberlain. Thank you."

-Bill Simmons :applause:

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt played with more top 50 greatest players of alltime than Russell.

Wilt (6) - Arizin, Baylor, Cunningham, Greer, Thurmond, West
Russell (4) - Cousy, Havlicek, Jones, Sharman

Now let's add up the number of relatively full seasons (playing BOTH the regular season, and the post-season) of those players...

Wilt:

Arizin-3
Baylor-2
Cunningham-2
Greer-4
Thurmond-1
West-4

Total= 16

However, Thurmond was a rookie, playing part-time, and out of position in that ONE full season in which he was paired up with Wilt.

Wilt played with Greer for less than 1/2 of one of those seasons.

factor in that Wilt, himself, missed almost the entire '69-70 regular season, and both West and Baylor lose a full season.


Russell:

Cousy-7
Havlicek-7
Jones-12
Sharman-5

Total=31

A MINIMUM of a 31-16 margin for Russell over Wilt.

BUT, how about in their ten seasons in the NBA TOGETHER?:

Wilt:

Arizin-3
Baylor-1
Cunningham-2
Greer-4
Thurmond-1
West-1

Total=12

Russell:

Cousy-4
Havlicek-7
Sharman-3
Jones-10

Total=24

24-12. Or a TWO-TO-ONE margin.

No wonder Russell won nearly every year. It was amazing that Wilt's team's lost FOUR game seven's by a combined NINE points, when he was MASSIVELY out-gunned in surrounding talent.



BTW, if you were to take ALL of their HOF teammates throughout their careers, Russell would have a MASSIVE edge overall.



"Russell played with four members of the NBA's Top 50 at 50 (Havlicek, Cousy, Sharman, and Sam Jones); Wilt played with six members (Baylor, West, Greer, Cunningham, Arizin, and Thurmond). And Russell's teammates from 1957 to 1969 were selected to twenty-six All-Star games, while Wilt's teammates from 1960 to 1973 were selected to twenty-four. Let's never mention the supporting-cast card again with Russell and Chamberlain. Thank you."

-Bill Simmons

Of course Simmons never actually studied the history of the game of basketball (or else he completely ignores it), or he would have mentioned this fact:

http://www.allstarnba.es/players/most-players-same-team.htm


In the NBA All-Star Game history 6 times a team has been rewarded with 4 players on their conference All-Star roster.

Until 1973 edition, each NBA team had to be represented by at least 1 player and a maximum of 3.



Here again, Russell had rosters with as many as EIGHT OTHER HOF teammates at ONE TIME. Had the Celtics been ALLOWED to send more than THREE players to the All-Star game, they would surely have flooded some of those teams.

BTW, Chamberlain had two "All-Star" teammates on his '62-63 team. Can you name them? And when you do, please also provide their seasonal games played and full stat-lines.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Now let's add up the number of relatively full seasons (playing BOTH the regular season, and the post-season) of those players...

Wilt:

Arizin-3
Baylor-2
Cunningham-2
Greer-4
Thurmond-1
West-4

Total= 16

However, Thurmond was a rookie, playing part-time, and out of position in that ONE full season in which he was paired up with Wilt.

Wilt played with Greer for less than 1/2 of one of those seasons.

factor in that Wilt, himself, missed almost the entire '69-70 regular season, and both West and Baylor lose a full season.


Russell:

Cousy-7
Havlicek-7
Jones-12
Sharman-5

Total=31

A MINIMUM of a 31-16 margin for Russell over Wilt.

BUT, how about in their ten seasons in the NBA TOGETHER?:

Wilt:

Arizin-3
Baylor-1
Cunningham-2
Greer-4
Thurmond-1
West-1

Total=12

Russell:

Cousy-4
Havlicek-7
Sharman-3
Jones-10

Total=24

24-12. Or a TWO-TO-ONE margin.

No wonder Russell won nearly every year. It was amazing that Wilt's team's lost FOUR game seven's by a combined NINE points, when he was MASSIVELY out-gunned in surrounding talent.



BTW, if you were to take ALL of their HOF teammates throughout their careers, Russell would have a MASSIVE edge overall.




Of course Simmons never actually studied the history of the game of basketball (or else he completely ignores it), or he would have mentioned this fact:

http://www.allstarnba.es/players/most-players-same-team.htm



Here again, Russell had rosters with as many as EIGHT OTHER HOF teammates at ONE TIME. Had the Celtics been ALLOWED to send more than THREE players to the All-Star game, they would surely have flooded some of those teams.

BTW, Chamberlain had two "All-Star" teammates on his '62-63 team. Can you name them? And when you do, please also provide their seasonal games played and full stat-lines.
So Russell has a 2-1 advantage in hof/allstar teammates, but a 11-2 advantage in rings?

How does that make sense, oh wait never mind it does, Wilt has the highest choking rating in nba history.

[LAZERUSS]

So Russell has a 2-1 advantage in hof/allstar teammates, but a 11-2 advantage in rings?

How does that make sense, oh wait never mind it does, Wilt has the highest choking rating in nba history.

HOF Teammmates each season in their ten seasons in the league together:

'60:
Wilt: Arizin, Gola, Rodgers
Russell: Cousy, Jones, Jones, Ramsey, Heinsohn, Sharman

'61:
Wilt: Arizin, Gola, Rodgers
Russell: Cousy, Heinsohn, Jones, Jones, Ramsey, Sharman, Sanders

'62:
Wilt: Arizin, Gola, Rodgers
Russell: Cousy, Heinsohn, Jones, Jones, Ramsey, Sanders

'63:
Wilt: Rodgers
Russell: Cousy, Havlicek, Heinsohn, Jones, Jones, Sanders, Ramsey, Lovellette

'64:
Wilt: Rodgers, Thurmond
Russell: Havlicek, Heinsohn, Jones, Jones, Sanders, Lovellette, Ramsey

'65:
Wilt: Walker, Greer
Russell: Havlicek, Heinsohn, Jones, Jones, Sanders

'66:
Wilt: Walker, Greer, Cunningham
Russell: Havlicek, Jones, Jones, Sanders

'67:
Wilt: Walker, Greer, Cunningham
Russell: Embry, Havlicek, Howell, Jones, Jones, Sanders,

'68:
Wilt: Walker, Greer, Cunningham (injured in first round of playoffs, did not play against Boston)
Russell: Embry, Havlicek, Howell, Jones, Sanders

'69:
Wilt: West, Baylor
Russell: Havlicek, Howell, Jones, Sanders


Again, a MIRACLE that Wilt lost FOUR game seven's by an average of 2 ppg, to those stacked teams. And an even greater MIRACLE that he BEAT them one year (and convincingly BTW.)

Wilt: GOAT

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Jordan: 33.4+6.4+5.7+2.1+.9=48.5
Magic: 19.5+7.7+12.3+1.9+.3=41.7
Bird: 23.8+10.3+6.5+1.8+.9=43.3
Russell: 16.2+24.7+4.7=45.8 (unofficially: above 50, closer to 55)
Kareem: 24.3+10.5+3.2+1.0+2.4=41.4 (unofficially: a bit higher)
Wilt: 22.5+24.5+4.2=51.2 (unofficially: close to 60)

Deuce's "choke rating" is bullet proof :no:

[Deuce Bigalow]

HOF Teammmates each season in their ten seasons in the league together:

'60:
Wilt: Arizin, Gola, Rodgers
Russell: Cousy, Jones, Jones, Ramsey, Heinsohn, Sharman

'61:
Wilt: Arizin, Gola, Rodgers
Russell: Cousy, Heinsohn, Jones, Jones, Ramsey, Sharman, Sanders

'62:
Wilt: Arizin, Gola, Rodgers
Russell: Cousy, Heinsohn, Jones, Jones, Ramsey, Sanders

'63:
Wilt: Rodgers
Russell: Cousy, Havlicek, Heinsohn, Jones, Jones, Sanders, Ramsey, Lovellette

'64:
Wilt: Rodgers, Thurmond
Russell: Havlicek, Heinsohn, Jones, Jones, Sanders, Lovellette, Ramsey

'65:
Wilt: Walker, Greer
Russell: Havlicek, Heinsohn, Jones, Jones, Sanders

'66:
Wilt: Walker, Greer, Cunningham
Russell: Havlicek, Jones, Jones, Sanders

'67:
Wilt: Walker, Greer, Cunningham
Russell: Embry, Havlicek, Howell, Jones, Jones, Sanders,

'68:
Wilt: Walker, Greer, Cunningham (injured in first round of playoffs, did not play against Boston)
Russell: Embry, Havlicek, Howell, Jones, Sanders

'69:
Wilt: West, Baylor
Russell: Havlicek, Howell, Jones, Sanders


Again, a MIRACLE that Wilt lost FOUR game seven's by an average of 2 ppg, to those stacked teams. And an even greater MIRACLE that he BEAT them one year (and convincingly BTW.)

Wilt: GOAT

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
The great KC Jones and Satch Sanders...

KC Jones: 6/3/4 career playoff average :bowdown:

Satch Sanders: 9/6/1 career playoff average :bowdown:

The great Wayne Embry: 10/8/1 playoff career average :bowdown:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Facts:

Wilt 6 top 50 GOAT teammates
Russell 4 top 50 GOAT teammates

Wilt 2
Russell 11

Wilt #1 choking rating
Russell a negative choking rating

[Smook A.]

Who is number one choker? One of the worst threads ever.
If you're serious then I think you need help

[LAZERUSS]

The great KC Jones and Satch Sanders...

KC Jones: 6/3/4 career playoff average :bowdown:

Satch Sanders: 9/6/1 career playoff average :bowdown:

The great Wayne Embry: 10/8/1 playoff career average :bowdown:

Two can play that game:

Th great Tom Gola... .336 career shooter in the post-season, including .271 and .206 with Wilt.

The great Guy Rodgers... career .378 shooter who still took 15 FGAs per game.

Wilt was saddled with two of the worst shooters of all-time, and yet both of them STILL shot, too.

Thurmond. Played BEHIND Chamberlain for ONE season.

[Asukal]

Wilt's name suits him best. :applause: :bowdown:

[Jameerthefear]

Looks like all Wilt did was "wilt" in the postseason :oldlol:

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt's name suits him best. :applause: :bowdown:

You mean LORD Chamberlain?

[Asukal]

You mean LORD Chamberlain?

You know what I mean. :oldlol:

[Angel Face]

Wilt's parents named him Wilt because they knew since he was a baby that he would choke in the playoffs. Fact!

[LAZERUSS]

Looks like all Wilt did was "wilt" in the postseason :oldlol:

With his 35+ ppg post-seasons, as well as his 30 rpg post-seasons?

The man who AVERAGED 30 ppg, 27 rpg, 5 apg, and shot .515 (about 10% over the league average) and likely 8+ bpg...in his first 67 playoff games (35 of which were against RUSSELL)?

Please, give me YOUR list of players who accomplished that in just ONE POST-SEASON. Hell, how about ONE DAMNED Playoff GAME?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Two can play that game:

Th great Tom Gola... .336 career shooter in the post-season, including .271 and .206 with Wilt.

The great Guy Rodgers... career .378 shooter who still took 15 FGAs per game.

Wilt was saddled with two of the worst shooters of all-time, and yet both of them STILL shot, too.

Thurmond. Played BEHIND Chamberlain for ONE season.
Wilt didn't makes his teammates better so it comes as no surprise. Bob Cousy said it at the time.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt didn't makes his teammates better so it comes as no surprise. Bob Cousy said it at the time.

Those teammates I just mentioned... Gola and Rodgers. They played WORSE in their careers withOUT Wilt.

You can add Willie Naulls to this list, as well. He played with BOTH Wilt AND Russell, and played considerably worse with RUSSELL.

[Deuce Bigalow]

With his 35+ ppg post-seasons, as well as his 30 rpg post-seasons?

The man who AVERAGED 30 ppg, 27 rpg, 5 apg, and shot .515 (about 10% over the league average) and likely 8+ bpg...in his first 67 playoff games (35 of which were against RUSSELL)?

Please, give me YOUR list of players who accomplished that in just ONE POST-SEASON. Hell, how about ONE DAMNED Playoff GAME?
Not that many centers take 23-24 shots a game or play in a pace that allows for that many rebounds.

Of course Shaq in 00 and 01 playoffs averaged over 30 ppg on 22 or less fga en route to back to back championships.

Hakeem averaged 33 ppg on 26 fga during the 95 playoffs en route to a championship.

Kareem averaged nearly 32 ppg on 23 fga during the 1980 playoffs en route to an NBA championship.

The great George Mikan averaged over 30 ppg in the 1949 and 50 playoffs on 23-26 fga en route to back to back championships.

Wilt? Never led a championship team in scoring.

[LAZERUSS]

Not that many centers take 23-24 shots a game or play in a pace that allows for that many rebounds.

Of course Shaq in 00 and 01 playoffs averaged over 30 ppg on 22 or less fga en route to back to back championships.

Hakeem averaged 33 ppg on 26 fga during the 95 playoffs en route to a championship.

Kareem averaged nearly 32 ppg on 23 fga during the 1980 playoffs en route to an NBA championship.

The great George Mikan averaged over 30 ppg in the 1949 and 50 playoffs on 23-26 fga en route to back to back championships.

Wilt? Never led a championship team in scoring.

A PRIME SCORING Wilt only played in ONE Final, and BTW, he was outgunned 7-1 in HOF teammates by Russell. He averaged 29 ppg on 24 FGAs, on a .517 FG%, along with 28 rpg, in a post-season that avearged 105.8 ppg and shot .420

He also outscored Russell per game, in that series, 29 to 11, outrebounded Russell, per game, 28-25, and outshot Russell from the field, .517 to .386.

And he DID Lead his '67 Sixers in scoring (in fact in virtually EVERY team category...MPG, PPG, FG%, RPG, BPG, TRB%, APG, AST%, and also had the highest scoring game in the playoffs, at 41 points.

Not that leading your team in scoring means that much, since Magic and Russell both won a TON of rings doing other things (that Wilt ALSO did, as well.)

BTW, a PRIME Chamberlain, playing with a 40-40 team that he led to a game seven one point loss against Russell's 62-18 Celtics, averaged 30.1 ppg on 20.9 FGAs (.555 FG% in a post-season that shot .429.)

[Deuce Bigalow]

Mikan's 1949 run was incredible.

30.3 ppg on 22.7 fga in a Playoffs that the LEAGUE averaged 78.5 ppg on 81.6 fga.
His team were the NBA Champions of course.

How come Wilt never had such dominance in the Playoffs?

[Deuce Bigalow]

A PRIME SCORING Wilt only played in ONE Final, and BTW, he was outgunned 7-1 in HOF teammates by Russell. He averaged 29 ppg on 24 FGAs, on a .517 FG%, along with 28 rpg, in a post-season that avearged 105.8 ppg and shot .420

He also outscored Russell per game, in that series, 29 to 11, outrebounded Russell, per game, 28-25, and outshot Russell from the field, .517 to .386.

And he DID Lead his '67 Sixers in scoring (in fact in virtually EVERY team category...MPG, PPG, FG%, RPG, BPG, TRB%, APG, AST%, and also had the highest scoring game in the playoffs, at 41 points.

Not that leading your team in scoring means that much, since Magic and Russell both won a TON of rings doing other things (that Wilt ALSO did, as well.)
Championships are won in the playoffs my friend.

Hal Greer was the leading scorer of that championship team in the playoffs at 27.7 ppg with Wilt and Walker tied at second with 21.7 ppg.

[LAZERUSS]

Mikan's 1949 run was incredible.

30.3 ppg on 22.7 fga in a Playoffs that the LEAGUE averaged 78.5 ppg on 81.6 fga.
His team were the NBA Champions of course.

How come Wilt never had such dominance in the Playoffs?

Because he didn't have the good fortune to have faced Mikan.

[Sarcastic]

Missing playoffs during the middle of a player's prime needs to be included in the formula. Reduced stats are better than 0 stats.

[LAZERUSS]

Championships are won in the playoffs my friend.

Hal Greer was the leading scorer of that championship team in the playoffs at 27.7 ppg with Wilt and Walker tied at second with 21.7 ppg.

You mean the Greer that scored 15 pts, and shot 5-16 from the field in the clinching game six win in the Finals, while Chamberlain battered Thurmond with a 24 point game, on 8-13 FG/FGAs?

The Wilt who shot .579 from the field in the playoffs, while Greer shot .429?

The Wilt who had a 28 ppg, 27 rpg, 11 apg, .617 series against the Royals? The Wilt who had a 22 ppg, 32 rpg, 10 apg, .556 series against Russell? The Wilt who had the 18 ppg, 29 rpg, 7 apg, .560 Finals against Nate?

The same Wilt who slaughtered both Russell and Nate in that post-season , outscoring them in 10-1, outrebounding them, 9-2, outassisting them, 8-1-2, and outshooting them from the field, 11-0?

[Deuce Bigalow]

You mean the Greer that scored 15 pts, and shot 5-16 from the field in the clinching game six win in the Finals, while Chamberlain battered Thurmond with a 24 point game, on 8-13 FG/FGAs?

The Wilt who shot .579 from the field in the playoffs, while Greer shot .429?

The Wilt who had a 28 ppg, 27 rpg, 11 apg, .617 series against the Royals? The Wilt who had a 22 ppg, 32 rpg, 10 apg, .556 series against Russell? The Wilt who had the 18 ppg, 29 rpg, 7 apg, .560 Finals against Nate?

The same Wilt who slaughtered both Russell and Nate in that post-season , outscoring them in 10-1, outrebounding them, 9-2, outassisting them, 8-1-2, and outshooting them from the field, 11-0?
I'm talking about the Wilt that never led a championship team in scoring. Never averaged 30 ppg in the Finals. Never averaged 30 ppg on a team that at least went to the Finals. Mikan, KAJ, Hakeem, and Shaq have all done so, but not Wilt.

[Kvnzhangyay]

The advanced formula actually seems remarkably accurate off the top of my head :applause: :applause:

[Rocketswin2013]

Alright, I think it's time to whip out the forumla for this year's Kevin Durant.


His PER dropped from 29.8 to 22.7

[riseagainst]

Alright, I think it's time to whip out the forumla for this year's Kevin Durant.


His PER dropped from 29.8 to 22.7

Durant just isn't on par with Lebron and other all time greats. He's a regular season empty stat padder.

[Rocketswin2013]

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings
0 + 2.4 + 0 - 1.4 + 0 + 2.6 + 0 + 4 + 0 + 6 + 0 - 0 = 13.6


If I went ahead and did it per 36 it would be MUCH worse.

[TheMarkMadsen]

0 + 2.4 + 0 - 1.4 + 0 + 2.6 + 0 + 4 + 0 + 6 + 0 - 0 = 13.6


If I went ahead and did it per 36 it would be MUCH worse.


Cool but most of us prefer real stats over hypothetical stats

[Rocketswin2013]

Cool but most of us prefer real stats over hypothetical stats
And he still has a top 5 choker rating regardless :lol

[MavsSuperFan]

With his 35+ ppg post-seasons, as well as his 30 rpg post-seasons?

The man who AVERAGED 30 ppg, 27 rpg, 5 apg, and shot .515 (about 10% over the league average) and likely 8+ bpg...in his first 67 playoff games (35 of which were against RUSSELL)?

Please, give me YOUR list of players who accomplished that in just ONE POST-SEASON. Hell, how about ONE DAMNED Playoff GAME?
http://cdn.head-fi.org/9/96/96b57e68_holland-meme-generator-awwwwwww-he-s-so-mad-f66847.jpeg

[MavsSuperFan]

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Karl Malone: 8 + (25.0-24.7) + (25.0-19.6) + (10.1-10.7) + (10.1-9.6) + (3.6-3.2) + (3.6-3.3) + (51.6-46.3) + (51.6-46.0) + (74.2-73.6) + (74.2-67.6) - 0 = 32.4

David Robinson: 6 + (21.1-18.1) + (21.1-13.5) + (10.6-10.6) + (10.6-9.4) + (2.5-2.3) + (2.5-1.5) + (51.8-47.9) + (51.8-49.5) + (73.6-70.8) + (73.6-69.2) - 2 = 30.4

Oscar Robertson: 3 + (25.7-22.2) + (25.7-16.3) + (7.5-6.7) + (7.5-4.2) + (9.5-8.9) + (9.5-8.7) + (48.5-46.0) + (48.5-47.3) + (83.8-85.5) + (83.8-80.4) - 1 = 25.8

James Harden: 1 + (18.0-16.6) + (18.0-12.4) + (4.0-5.0) + (4.0-4.8) + (3.9-3.7) + (3.9-3.6) + (44.5-42.1) + (44.5-37.5) + (84.9-84.5) + (84.9-79.2) - 0 = 22.2

Chris Bosh: 2 + (19.2-15.8) + (19.2-14.8) + (8.7-8.0) + (8.7-8.5) + (2.0-1.4) + (2.0-1.2) + (49.8-46.4) + (49.8-44.0) + (80.0-80.7) + (80.0-79.2) - 2 = 19.4

John Stockton: 7 + (13.1-13.4) + (13.1-12.3) + (2.7-3.3) + (2.7-3.3) + (10.5-10.1) + (10.5-8.8) + (51.5-47.3) + (51.5-50.0) + (82.6-81.0) + (82.6-81.1) - 0 = 17.2

Larry Bird: 7 + (24.3-23.8) + (24.3-23.1) + (10.0-10.3) + (10.0-11.6) + (6.3-6.5) + (6.3-6.0) + (49.6-47.2) + (49.6-45.6) + (88.6-89.0) + (88.6-87.2) - 3 = 11.3

Lebron James: 3 + (27.5-28.1) + (27.5-23.4) + (7.2-8.6) + (7.2-9.0) + (6.9-6.7) + (6.9-7.0) + (49.6-47.2) + (49.6-44.1) + (74.7-74.9) + (74.7-73.7) - 2 = 10.1

---------------------------------------------------------------

Basic formula: Finals losses + playoff ppg dropoff + finals ppg drop off - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 4 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) - 2 = 21.1

Oscar Robertson: 1 + (25.7-22.2) + (25.7-16.3) - 1 = 12.9

Karl Malone: 3 + (25.0-24.7) + (25.0-19.6) - 0 = 8.7

David Robinson: 0 + (21.1-18.1) + (21.1-13.5) - 2 = 8.6

Elgin Baylor: 7 + (27.4-27.0) + (27.4-26.4) - 0 = 8.4

Chris Bosh: 1 + (19.2-15.8) + (19.2-14.8) - 2 = 6.8

Ray Allen: 1 + (18.9-17.0) + (18.9-14.9) - 2 = 4.9

Lebron James: 2 + (27.5-28.1) + (27.5-23.4) - 2 = 3.5
:applause: :applause:
I appreciate all the hard work you did here, thank you.

Some of those results surprised me, eg. bird :(

[Deuce Bigalow]

0 + 2.4 + 0 - 1.4 + 0 + 2.6 + 0 + 4 + 0 + 6 + 0 - 0 = 13.6


If I went ahead and did it per 36 it would be MUCH worse.
That's not how it's done brah

[Rocketswin2013]

That's not how it's done brah
:durantunimpressed:

[GODbe]

Cool formula but eye-test wise LeBald should be #1 easily.

[Rocketswin2013]

I shouldn't have skim-read.....Missed all the details with parentheses. :facepalm

[B-hoop]

Could we have updated numbers for Lebron, Bosh & co?

[russwest0]

Whats Durants rating?