Why are Larry Bird and Wilt are ranked so high on the All time list?

[theoneneo]

Not a troll thread, just a young nicca tryna understand what makes these two top 5(6).

Larry Bird had 8 solid seasons in the NBA, just 8... the rest were injury plagued, then he finally retired, granted within those 8 solid seasons he won 3 rings, and 3 MVPs, but still, it doesn't measure up to the resumes of Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan(soon to be Lebron as well).

Maybe Larry is ranked so high because of his feud with magic, IDK :confusedshrug:

Which brings me to Wilt Chamberlain why in the world is he ranked higher than Shaq? Surely not because of that 100 point game?

[Rose'sACL]

Not a troll thread, just a young nicca tryna understand what makes these two top 5(6).

Larry Bird had 8 solid seasons in the NBA, just 8... the rest were injury plagued, then he finally retired, granted within those 8 solid seasons he won 3 rings, and 3 MVPs, but still, it doesn't measure up to the resumes of Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan(soon to be Lebron as well).

Maybe Larry is ranked so high because of his feud with magic, IDK :confusedshrug:

Which brings me to Wilt Chamberlain why in the world is he ranked higher than Shaq? Surely not because of that 100 point game?
what is a "nicca"? some African tribe name?

[TheMilkyBarKid]

Wilt played against probably the most stacked team ever in his prime and disrespecting bird :facepalm get outta here

[1987_Lakers]

Bird won three straight MVPs and won 3 championships. How many people can say that?

Wilt was the most dominant player the NBA has ever seen.

nuff said

[RichieW]

Was Bird not consistently considered a better player than Magic throughout his career?

[iamgine]

Not a troll thread, just a young nicca tryna understand what makes these two top 5(6).

Larry Bird had 8 solid seasons in the NBA, just 8... the rest were injury plagued, then he finally retired, granted within those 8 solid seasons he won 3 rings, and 3 MVPs, but still, it doesn't measure up to the resumes of Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan(soon to be Lebron as well).

Maybe Larry is ranked so high because of his feud with magic, IDK :confusedshrug:

Which brings me to Wilt Chamberlain why in the world is he ranked higher than Shaq? Surely not because of that 100 point game?
What resume are you talking about?

[jlip]

80's Bird GOAT conversation (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=241244)

[jzek]

Because Larry is the GOAT SF. Don't agree with me? Here's a scenario - 3s left on the clock, who would you rather take the last shot for your team to win the game - Larry or LeBron?

[dr.hee]

Not a troll thread, just a young nicca tryna understand what makes these two top 5(6).

Larry Bird had 8 solid seasons in the NBA, just 8... the rest were injury plagued, then he finally retired, granted within those 8 solid seasons he won 3 rings, and 3 MVPs, but still, it doesn't measure up to the resumes of Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan(soon to be Lebron as well).

Maybe Larry is ranked so high because of his feud with magic, IDK :confusedshrug:

Which brings me to Wilt Chamberlain why in the world is he ranked higher than Shaq? Surely not because of that 100 point game?

First of all, 9 very good seasons before 88/89, not 8. And you're calling those "solid"? Are you kidding me? And the "injury plagued" version of Bird, in his last 3 years still dropping 21/9/7 while being washed up. Add MVPs and rings to that. So what in the hell are you talking about?

Now your next move should be to talk about the weak era, then maybe bad defenders and Bird being white and unathletic. You can do it.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Not a troll thread, just a young nicca tryna understand what makes these two top 5(6).

Larry Bird had 8 solid seasons in the NBA, just 8... the rest were injury plagued, then he finally retired, granted within those 8 solid seasons he won 3 rings, and 3 MVPs, but still, it doesn't measure up to the resumes of Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan(soon to be Lebron as well).

Maybe Larry is ranked so high because of his feud with magic, IDK :confusedshrug:

Which brings me to Wilt Chamberlain why in the world is he ranked higher than Shaq? Surely not because of that 100 point game?

Nice thread :facepalm

Already great responses on this one. I'll just say...

Solid seasons? :rolleyes: During those 9 (not 8) seasons he "only" averaged 25/10/6/2/1 on 50/38/88 in the regular-season and around the same in the playoffs. In his first year, he turned a team with the 2nd worst record into a team with the best record making noise in the playoffs, with basically the same roster. In those 9 seasons, his teams only had less than 60 regular-season wins 3 times, he made all-nba 1st team every single season and was only twice out of the top3 in MVP voting, winning 3 rings as the main man/leader.
Furthermore, he had some of the greatest absolute prime-years, winning 3 straight MVPs, making 4 straight Finals (injured in one and not much chances in the last one), winning 2 FMVPs, with godly performances, averaging like 27/10/7/2/1 on 50/40/90, playing some of the best basketball ever seen, having a top5 peak of all-time, being considered GOAT while he was still playing.
And those last 3 seasons, as a complete shell, would've still been career years for most players lol.
Oh and let's not forget his competition, he was playing in arguably the greatest decade, in the best conference, facing all types of stacked teams (not that he didn't "have" those) and with numerous all-time greats, tremendous superstars at the top.
And all of that above is just scratching the surface, if that doesn't make him top5 I don't know what will.

Wilt's one of the most dominant players of all time, owning all types of records, doing mythical stuff. Yes pace was considerably higher than afterwards but nobody else was even close to his type of all-around numbers and individual dominance, during those days. And you can mention the competition - if you're ignorant enough - but he, at some point or another, schooled the likes of Russell, Thurmond, Reed, Bellamy, Kareem or Lanier, and that's major. Plus he was facing the greatest dynasty ever.
And while I do agree that he had plenty of "choke jobs" or whatever you wanna call it, he still had a top5 peak of all-time imo, won 2 rings, 2 FMVPs and 4 MVPs, and was a beast of a player, no matter which way you wanna look at it.

Now read some of these responses, learn something and gtfoh with this type of ignorant-ass threads.

[Akrazotile]

Nice thread :facepalm

Already great responses on this one. I'll just say...

Solid seasons? :rolleyes: During those 9 (not 8) seasons he "only" averaged 25/10/6/2/1 on 50/38/88 in the regular-season and around the same in the playoffs.


Considering he played against 4'7 white guys, it's really not that impressive.

Larry Bird modern NBA comparison = poor man's Nick Calathes

[I<3NBA]

because they deserve it

[LAZERUSS]

Bird's resume...

Three straight MVPs (one a near unanimous one), 2 FMVPs, Three rings, one the greatest "winners" of all-time, and high scoring regular and post-seasons...among his many accomplishments.

Wilt's resume...

Literally OWNs the NBA record book (hundreds of records); statistical titles that no one will ever approach, much less surpass; absolute domination of his peers...arguably more than any other player in NBA history; 4 time MVP and deserved a unanimous MVP in '67; held a 7-2 edge over Russell in First team All-NBAs in their 10 seasons together; six Finals; lost to the eventual champion 10 times...five in game seven's, and four by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points; two titles, four teams with 60+ wins, including two that went 68-13 and 69-13 (and including a 33 game winning streak)...among his many accomplishments.

Of course I'm sure that you can find many players who had better overall resumes than those two, though, right?

[SHAQisGOAT]

Considering he played against 4'7 white guys, it's really not that impressive.

Larry Bird modern NBA comparison = poor man's Nick Calathes

Can't tell if you're joking or not but

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msEmcemLR7M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksp82aw-jqg

^^ Just some "examples"

Michael Cooper, Bobby Jones, Dennis Rodman, Rodney McCray, Buck Williams, Scottie Pippen, Cliff Robinson, Dan Roundfield, Julius Erving, Michael Jordan, Paul Pressey, Larry Nance, Xavier McDaniel, Dominique Wilkins, Jerome Kersey, James Worthy, Orlando Woolridge, Clyde Drexler, Charles Barkley, Marques Johnson, Lonnie Shelton, Sidney Moncrief.... Those ****ing un-athletic midgest :rolleyes:
Nobody would do a better job today or in any era, plus he was facing tougher rules and less superstar treatment. Oh and that dude could rebound with the best bigs, pass with the best PG's and played some great team defense.

Can't be quite compared to anyone nowadays, but imagine a 6'9'' (most likely listed at 6'10 or more nowadays), 220+ lbs player - with just above average athleticism, don't underrate that - with unreal skill and top-notch intangibles.. One of the best all-around shooters in the league, if not the best, one of the best in the post, one of the best passers, a top rebounder playing great team defense, able to create his own shot or catch-n-shoot, able to read defenses like nobody else, able to finish really well with either hand, master of floaters, beast in the clutch, able to work with any teammate and strategy, competitive like crazy, tremendous impact, very strong willed and minded.. that's Larry Bird for ya. Say a mix (not "addition" of course but "parts" from each) between Dirk, Love, KD, David Lee, Duncan, Melo and Bron, while better individually than any (Lebron and Durant close right now) and best player in the league.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Bird's resume...

Three straight MVPs (one a near unanimous one), 2 FMVPs, Three rings, one the greatest "winners" of all-time, and high scoring regular and post-seasons...among his many accomplishments.

Wilt's resume...

Literally OWNs the NBA record book (hundreds of records); statistical titles that no one will ever approach, much less surpass; absolute domination of his peers...arguably more than any other player in NBA history; 4 time MVP and deserved a unanimous MVP in '67; held a 7-2 edge over Russell in First team All-NBAs in their 10 seasons together; six Finals; lost to the eventual champion 10 times...five in game seven's, and four by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points; two titles, four teams with 60+ wins, including two that went 68-13 and 69-13 (and including a 33 game winning streak)...among his many accomplishments.

Of course I'm sure that you can find many players who had better overall resumes than those two, though, right?
You forgot to add the greatest choker of alltime to Wilt's resume. "Literally OWNS the choking record book".

[r0drig0lac]

really?

[Patrick Chewing]

Wilt's the GOAT if you ask me, but at least Top 2.

[ILLsmak]

They both did work, but I still think Larry is a top 5 player, maybe even top 3... where as Wilt is not.

-Smak

[ThePhantomCreep]

Wilt won two championships and four MVPs. He has more records than he knows what to do with. Statistically he clownstomped his chief rival h2h for close to a decade. He was still pushing 20rpg in the 70's, an era with less inflated statistics.

Wilt is underrated at this point. Shaq couldn't shine his shoes, I don't care how impressive his Finals performances against Rik Smits, 90-year old Mutombo, and Aaron Williams were.

[jlip]

From '81-'88 Bird never finished worse than 3rd in the MVP voting. That includes:

3- 1st place finishes
4- 2nd place finishes
1- 3rd place finish

While I know that MVP voting is not always an accurate depiction of who the "best player in the game" is, but in this case it is pretty close. Bird indeed was considered a top 3 player in the league for at least eight consecutive years, and considered the best for a few of them.

[Prometheus]

You forgot to add the greatest choker of alltime to Wilt's resume. "Literally OWNS the choking record book".

Dude... why are you trying to bait him like this? It's like handing a recovering heroin addict $50 and a syringe. Have some sympathy :no:

[KevinNYC]

Why are Larry Bird and Wilt are ranked so high on the All time list?

Because both were very, very good at basketball.

Among other things folks have pointed out, they were both the best players on teams with a legitimate claim as the best NBA team of all time.

1972 Lakers and the 1986 Celtics.

The Lakers had a 33 game winning streak. 33 games. That's 50% higher than the next closest team.

The Celtics lost one game at home that year. 40-1 in the regular season and 50-1 overall.

As I was looking up that stat, I got caught up watching this video of Bird's triple-double closing out the 1986 finals. It's a good a summary of why people talk with such reverence about Bird. He was all over the court, seemingly always knowing when the ball was headed. He had an eerie sense of the game and knack for not just a good solid play, but the best play. You can see him moving to exactly where the ball is going to wind up several times

His passing is fantastic, when his jumper was on he was ridiculously hard to guard. You needed someone big, strong and quick who guard someone both outside and in the post. The Rockets had two of better guys to match up against him in Robert Reid and Rodney McRay two tall, fast fowards, but you had to pick poison when defending Bird. He just took what you gave him and made you pay. He makes several steals, some terrific outlet passes, you see how could he is on the break. He even beat Hakeem Olajuwon on a jump ball in this game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3i9gt3UE0Q#t=488

Dr. J who at one point was the best basketball player in the world, said Larry Bird was a basketball genius.

[SHAQisGOAT]

As I was looking up that stat, I got caught up watching this video of Bird's triple-double closing out the 1986 finals. It's a good a summary of why people talk with such reverence about Bird. He was all over the court, seemingly always knowing when the ball was headed. He had an eerie sense of the game and knack for not just a good solid play, but the best play. You can see him moving to exactly where the ball is going to wind up several times

His passing is fantastic, when his jumper was on he was ridiculously hard to guard. You needed someone big, strong and quick who guard someone both outside and in the post. The Rockets had two of better guys to match up against him in Robert Reid and Rodney McRay two tall, fast fowards, but you had to pick poison when defending Bird. He just took what you gave him and made you pay. He makes several steals, some terrific outlet passes, you see how could he is on the break. He even beat Hakeem Olajuwon on a jump ball in this game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3i9gt3UE0Q#t=488



:bowdown: :bowdown:

That performance was pure gold, just masterful, peak Bird was unreal. Literally doing everything and putting up 29/11/12/3 on .651 TS% at the biggest stage of them all, to finish the series.
Yea, McCray was a great defender, 6'7, 230 lbs, pretty athletic, and 6'8 Reid was also athletic and played D, plus they had Hakeem and Sampson patrolling the paint.
He was great at taking what the defense gave him, reading plays before they happened and making them pay. Just great shooting (like dribbling away from the paint to hit a 3, just.. lol), great post-game, overall passing always terrific, great rebounding, was being agressive as hell playing with a sense of urgency, all out hustle too and look at his defense, he was frustating the hell out of Hakeem with those constant double teams, feel for the game and quick hands, one of the big reasons Hakeem had a pretty sub-par game, he even guarded Sampson really well on swich-ups, and also did a fine job against his man, yet some people really underrate his defense :facepalm . Just controlling the game everywhere, he was like Neo on the Matrix :applause:
Every true basketball fan should watch a performance like that.

[LAZERUSS]

You forgot to add the greatest choker of alltime to Wilt's resume. "Literally OWNS the choking record book".

Your defintion of "choking" is considerably different than mine...


You mean stats like MULTIPLE 30+ ppg post-seasons? MULTIPLE 37.0+ ppg series? MULTIPLE 30-25 post-seasons? Multiple 50+ point playoff games (three of which came in "must-win" games?) Multiple 50-30 playoff games? Multiple 40-30 playoff games? Multiple 20-20 post-seasons. 13 straight post-seasons of 20+ rpg, with highs of 29 and 30? Multiple playoff series of 20-20-10 .555 FG%? A 30-30 .555 series?

Best player on the floor in the vast majority of his 29 playoff series? Highest rebounder in all 29 playoff series? Only outshot from the field by an opposing center in one playoff series (and that player missed 107 shots to Wilt's 20)? Wiped the floor with his opposing center in the vast majority of his playoff games and series?

Carrying 40-40 teams to game a game seven, one point loss, against 62-18 team, and with a 30-31 .555 series? Taking last place rosters to a 49-26 record in his first year, and losing to a game six to the 59-16 Celtics by two points, in a series in which he averaged 30-26 .500? Taking that same roster, which would collectively shoot .354 in the playoffs, to a game seven, two point loss against a 60-20 team, and with a 34-26 series? Leadin his Sixers to a dominating title and destroying Russell and his eight-time defending champion Celtics with a 22-32-10 .556 series? And then annihilating Thurmond in the Finals, and in Nate's greatest season, en route to a dominating world title? Taking a 48-34 team, and only four months after major knee surgery, to a game seven loss against a 60-22 team, and doing so with a 23-24 .625 FG% series? A year after major knee surgery, and at age 34, statistically outplaying a peak Kareem, and in the deciding game loss, in Milwaukee, receiving a standing ovation as he left the floor? Leading his Lakers to a title the very next season, and by all accounts, outplaying a peak Kareem in the WCF's, and then winning FMVP with a 19-23 .600 series?

Yep...all of the above is solid evidence of a "choker"...


And then compare that with the "clutch" Kobe...

Quote:
99-00
Regular season 22.5 ppg .468 FG%
Finals 15.6 ppg .367 FG%
Last Game of Series .296 FG%

00-01
Regular season 28.5 ppg .464 FG%
Finals 24.6 ppg .415 FG%
Last Game .389

01-02
Regular season 25.2 ppg .469
Finals 26.8 ppg .514
Last Game .438

03-04
Regular season 24.0 ppg .438
Finals 22.6 ppg .381
Last Game .333

07-08
Regular season 28.3 ppg .459
Finals 25.7 ppg .405
Last .318

08-09
Regular season 26.8 ppg .467
Finals 32.4 ppg .430
Last .435

09-10
Regular season 27.0 ppg .456
Finals 28.6 ppg .405
Last .250


Other noteables:


97-98
Swept by Utah 4-0.
Kobe averages 10.0 ppg on a .367 FG%

98-99
Swept by San Antonio 4-0
Last game of the series : Kobe 16 points on a .438 FG%

02-03
Lose to Spurs in WCF's, 4-2.
Last game loss by a score of 110-82 (Kobe with 20 points in a season in which he averaged 30 ppg)

03-04 Finals
Heavily favored Lakers lose to Pistons, 4-1.
In the clinching game five loss Kobe shoots .333 in a 100-87 loss (and LA was down 23 going into 4th quarter)

04-05
Team goes 34-48 and misses playoffs

05-06
Regular season 35.4 ppg .450
Playoffs 27.9 ppg .497
Last game (7) 24 points in a 121-90 loss (after blowing a 3-1 series lead)

06-07
Team goes 42-40
Loses in first round to Suns, 4-1.
Last game of that series, Kobe shoots .394 from the floor

07-08
Lakers are blown out by Celts in Finals.
In game four the Lakers blow a 23 point lead, and lose, in a game in which Kobe shot .316 from the field.

In the clinching game six loss, the Lakers lose by a Finals record margin of 131-92. Kobe shoots .318 from the floor.

10-11
Lakers with HCA are swept by the Mavs, 4-0.
In the clinching game four loss, LA loses 122-86. Kobe shoots .389 from the field.

Kobe shot worse in nearly every Finals, and then shot dramatically worse in nearly every deciding game of those Finals, than he did during his regular seasons. The only two Finals in which he played well, were against the lowly Nets. He was basically carried in the Finals three times, and basically it was KOBE who lost the Finals in '04 and '08.

[Pointguard]

Bird played in the most competitive era was lethal on every part of the floor -even out of bounds. And he could get his teammates off as well. He played a very smart game and was a great competitor. Even as a GM he fully understands the capability of his players and get a lot out of them, which is a great skill to have.

Wilt a 50/25 season. Averaged 40ppg over seven years and more than 23rebs with it. Best rebounder ever as well. Only center to lead the league in assist. Was the best defender in the league as well on the resume. Only player with a triple double triple. Was basically mythological.

[riseagainst]

Considering he played against 4'7 white guys, it's really not that impressive.

Larry Bird modern NBA comparison = poor man's Nick Calathes

mods and admin, do your thing. IP ban this guy once and for all.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Your defintion of "choking" is considerably different than mine...



Kobe shot worse in nearly every Finals, and then shot dramatically worse in nearly every deciding game of those Finals, than he did during his regular seasons. The only two Finals in which he played well, were against the lowly Nets. He was basically carried in the Finals three times, and basically it was KOBE who lost the Finals in '04 and '08.
NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Karl Malone: 8 + (25.0-24.7) + (25.0-19.6) + (10.1-10.7) + (10.1-9.6) + (3.6-3.2) + (3.6-3.3) + (51.6-46.3) + (51.6-46.0) + (74.2-73.6) + (74.2-67.6) - 0 = 32.4

David Robinson: 6 + (21.1-18.1) + (21.1-13.5) + (10.6-10.6) + (10.6-9.4) + (2.5-2.3) + (2.5-1.5) + (51.8-47.9) + (51.8-49.5) + (73.6-70.8) + (73.6-69.2) - 2 = 30.4

Oscar Robertson: 3 + (25.7-22.2) + (25.7-16.3) + (7.5-6.7) + (7.5-4.2) + (9.5-8.9) + (9.5-8.7) + (48.5-46.0) + (48.5-47.3) + (83.8-85.5) + (83.8-80.4) - 1 = 25.8

Chris Bosh: 2 + (19.2-15.8) + (19.2-14.8) + (8.7-8.0) + (8.7-8.5) + (2.0-1.4) + (2.0-1.2) + (49.8-46.4) + (49.8-44.0) + (80.0-80.7) + (80.0-79.2) - 2 = 19.4

John Stockton: 7 + (13.1-13.4) + (13.1-12.3) + (2.7-3.3) + (2.7-3.3) + (10.5-10.1) + (10.5-8.8) + (51.5-47.3) + (51.5-50.0) + (82.6-81.0) + (82.6-81.1) - 0 = 17.2

Lebron James: 3 + (27.5-28.1) + (27.5-23.4) + (7.2-8.6) + (7.2-9.0) + (6.9-6.7) + (6.9-7.0) + (49.6-47.2) + (49.6-44.1) + (74.7-74.9) + (74.7-73.7) - 2 = 10.1

[Smook A.]

What do you mean why are they so high?

Both had amazing stats. Magic Johnson is 5 time champ. Larry Bird is a 3x champ.

Both have 3 mvps. These 2 guys DOMINATED the 80s.

[Psileas]

Not a troll thread, just a young nicca tryna understand what makes these two top 5(6).

Larry Bird had 8 solid seasons in the NBA, just 8... the rest were injury plagued, then he finally retired, granted within those 8 solid seasons he won 3 rings, and 3 MVPs, but still, it doesn't measure up to the resumes of Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan(soon to be Lebron as well).

Maybe Larry is ranked so high because of his feud with magic, IDK :confusedshrug:

Which brings me to Wilt Chamberlain why in the world is he ranked higher than Shaq? Surely not because of that 100 point game?

"Νοt a troll thread", which means you're probably pretty aware of the troll threads that exist about this matter, especially in regards to Wilt. Even in such threads, there are countless replies and arguments about why Wilt and Bird are top-6.
BTW, you didn't bother to explain to us how in the world Wilt isn't top-5.

[MavsSuperFan]

Bird managed to be arguably the best player in the 80s, with an extremely high peak. He was a winner and a champion. Great shooter and great passer, and surprisingly good rebounder.

Wilt dominated the NBA in a time most players had to work second jobs in the off season.

[smoovegittar]

It would help to have witnessed those years. I honestly prefer them over the current status of the league, but that just my opinion.

[Iceman#44]

Durant with that Nice streak of 34 Games with 25+ points...WILT HAD 106 CONSECUTIVE GAMES WITH 25+....:applause:

[millwad]

Wilt doesn't deseve it, he is ranked so highly due to the fact that he put up massive numbers in the regular season. His playoff numbers are no where near as impressive and he never even won while being the leading scorer over the whole play off run.