Mature discussion: 3 rings, 3 FMVPs, 4 MVPs vs. 5 rings, 2 FMVP, 1 MVP

[Connor B]

Those are the 3 most important accolades any given player can have, in my opinion. The latter represents Lebron's resume if the Heat were to 3-peat, while the latter represents Kobe's current resume.

We can argue about skill, killer instinct, clutch factor, etc. for hours but in the end that's pretty subjective.

What we do have in concrete is accolades.

So, based on that,

Which is better? I want a mature discussion. I am not a stan of either player. My instincts tell me Lebron's accolade line would be better. But I can be convinced otherwise.

I want to hear honest and mature opinions on this, because this will obviously be a very big argument going forward in terms of where to place these two players all time.

I am going to sit back and listen and I will read through all your posts even if they are long.

[Fudge]

You're seriously asking for a mature discussion of LeBron and Kobe?

[IncarceratedBob]

How is this even a question?

More rings as the clear leader, more MVPs, better overall stats.

Kobe is a good player but LeBron is clearly better.

No disrespect to Kobe fans but dudes been overrated his entire career. His stats are nice but nothing amazing (poor mans MJ).

[Im Still Ballin]

3 rings 3 fmvps 4 mvps is better to be fair and honest.

[Im Still Ballin]

You're seriously asking for a mature discussion of LeBron and Kobe?

get the fvck outta here with your instigating trash talk

[sammichoffate]

You're asking for a bit much here, considering this is ISH :cheers:

[Black Mamba's B]

Bron has an impressive resume as does Kobe. Kobe should have more mvp awards than 1. Bron could or should arguably have more rings. You won't get a mature discussion out of this thread. And maybe we should wait till they both retire, this topic has been beaten to death already

[IncarceratedBob]

get the fvck outta here with your instigating trash talk
Why are you so hostile? Chill bro. :oldlol:

At the end of the day the name of the game is winning rings, 5 vs 3. This is elementary son.

[ThatCoolKid]

How is this even a question?

More rings as the clear leader, more MVPs, better overall stats.

Kobe is a good player but LeBron is clearly better.

No disrespect to Kobe fans but dudes been overrated his entire career. His stats are nice but nothing amazing (poor mans MJ).

I respect your opinion, but must voice my descent with your sentiments. While Lebron may have good statlines and knows how to stroke the egos of his teamates, Kobe is a true alpha who has the balls to take the shot at the culmination of basketball, and is a wolf amongst puppies. Puppies get victimized and whine like Lebron, wolves feast like kobe. Kobe may be forgotten, but his time will come again.

[IncarceratedBob]

I respect your opinion, but must voice my descent with your sentiments. While Lebron may have good statlines and knows how to stroke the egos of his teamates, Kobe is a true alpha who has the balls to take the shot at the culmination of basketball, and is a wolf amongst puppies. Puppies get victimized and whine like Lebron, wolves feast like kobe. Kobe may be forgotten, but his time will come again.
Yes you're right. I just realized that LeBron couldn't get any of his team accolades without two Hall of Famers at his flank. It's quite sad that he couldn't win in Cleveland after promising it. Kobe promised that he would take the Lakers back to promised land if they chose him over Shaq and he delivered.

Kobe is undoubtedly more impressive than LeBron James. LeBron colluded with other stars to earn his hardware. Kobe colluded with hard work and determination.

[JohnFreeman]

Why are you so hostile? Chill bro. :oldlol:

At the end of the day the name of the game is winning rings, 5 vs 3. This is elementary son.
Horry > Jordan

[IncarceratedBob]

Horry > Jordan
Spoken like a child. Please go castrate yourself.

[sammichoffate]

Yes you're right. I just realized that LeBron couldn't get any of his team accolades without two Hall of Famers at his flank. It's quite sad that he couldn't win in Cleveland after promising it. Kobe promised that he would take the Lakers back to promised land if they chose him over Shaq and he delivered.

Kobe is undoubtedly more impressive than LeBron James. LeBron colluded with other stars to earn his hardware. Kobe colluded with hard work and determination.Irrational Lebron stans are gonna tell you about Kobe being carried by Shaq and a dominant frontcourt of Gasol/Odom/Bynum, so...yeah unfortunately it cuts both ways.

[Keno]

three rings as the main option, with four mvps vs. two rings as the main option and one mvp that doesn't even belong to him. i'll let you decide.

[Im Still Ballin]

Spoken like a child. Please go castrate yourself.

snitch.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Boiled down:

Kobe: 5
Bran: 3

[JohnFreeman]

Boiled down:

Kobe: 5
Bran: 3
Boiled down:
Horry: 7
Jordan: 6
Kobe: 5
Bran: 3

[Cold soul]

Boiled down:

Kobe: 5
Bran: 3

/thread

Kobe wins! :cheers:

[Fudge]

Im Still Ballin

:oldlol:

[Cold soul]

Im Still Ballin

:oldlol:

Holy crap is that Steve Francis in your AV? :biggums:

[ThePhantomCreep]

Another ring and Finals MVP vaults LeBron past Kobe, Duncan, and Shaq IMO.

He'd have a strong argument over Bird, Wilt, and even Magic. It's basically a top 5 resume. That can't be denied.

I thought his decision to collude win two other superstars in their primes was just about the wimpiest, gayest move ever, but Wade declined enough that it all worked out for LeBron in the end. It is what it is.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Boiled down:
Horry: 7
Jordan: 6
Kobe: 5
Bran: 3
Yup

[Fudge]

Holy crap is that Steve Francis in your AV? :biggums:
Yes sir! http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/6/47qh.jpg

[AnaheimLakers24]

kobe is better

[Keno]

Yup

so horry is greater than jordan. i always thought that too, thanks kobe stans.

[Deuce Bigalow]

so horry is greater than jordan. i always thought that too, thanks kobe stans.
Boiling it down requires a MVP, FMVP, and multiple All-NBA First teams tbh.

[Cold soul]

Boiling it down requires a MVP, FMVP, and multiple All-NBA First teams tbh.

:applause:

[Keno]

Boiling it down requires a MVP, FMVP, and multiple All-NBA First teams tbh.

nah, boiling it down requires a minimum of two mvps. kobe doesn't meet the requirements, so he's not on the list, sorry.

[Deuce Bigalow]

nah, boiling it down requires a minimum of two mvps. kobe doesn't meet the requirements, so he's not on the list, sorry.
I'm afraid you're not boiling it down correctly.

[qrich]

I'm afraid you're not boiling it down correctly.

In your opinion. In others, you aren't.

Insecurity is priceless

[T_L_P]

Bron has an impressive resume as does Kobe. Kobe should have more mvp awards than 1. Bron could or should arguably have more rings. You won't get a mature discussion out of this thread. And maybe we should wait till they both retire, this topic has been beaten to death already

Which seasons do you think Kobe should have won it?

[JohnFreeman]

Which seasons do you think Kobe should have won it?
Yeah would be interesting to know this. Kobe has way too many defensive selections to his name

[T_L_P]

Yeah would be interesting to know this. Kobe has way too many defensive selections to his name

I mean, I definitely can't give him anything whilst Shaq was there. '05 they miss the Playoffs, Kobe's injured. '06 and '07. . .I don't know. Leading your team to the 7th seed doesn't beat leading your team to the 1st seed, even if your stats are better. '09 and '10 were definitely LeBron's. I don't think Kobe was really ever in the discussion after that.

[JohnFreeman]

I mean, I definitely can't give him anything whilst Shaq was there. '05 they miss the Playoffs, Kobe's injured. '06 and '07. . .I don't know. Leading your team to the 7th seed doesn't beat leading your team to the 1st seed, even if your stats are better. '09 and '10 were definitely LeBron's. I don't think Kobe was really ever in the discussion after that.
I agree.

[sbw19]

Kobe's been to the Finals 7 times, won 5 titles and was instrumental in winning 4 of them and helped win 5th.

Anyway you slice it 5 Finals appearances and 3 titles aren't as good. If you think otherwise that's fine and all but I don't. It just isn't quite the same as making the Finals 7 times in 11 seasons,, playing in a much tougher western conference no less.

LeBron needs 2 more rings to be in the same league in terms of contributing to winning titles IMO. And yes, he trumps Kobe in the regular season, but winning is the name of the game and the only reason why he joined forces with Wade and Co.

[russwest0]

Valuing the MVP award is like valuing the DPOY award. It's voted on by the media so it's meaningless.

[Keno]

Valuing the MVP award is like valuing the DPOY award. It's voted on by the media so it's meaningless.

yet you have your panties in a bunch for durant winning it this year. oh the irony. kobe stans and durant stans can't think straight.

[russwest0]

yet you have your panties in a bunch for durant winning it this year. oh the irony. kobe stans and durant stans can't think straight.

Using the MVP award to troll LeBron stans =/= I value it

[Deuce Bigalow]

I mean, I definitely can't give him anything whilst Shaq was there. '05 they miss the Playoffs, Kobe's injured. '06 and '07. . .I don't know. Leading your team to the 7th seed doesn't beat leading your team to the 1st seed, even if your stats are better. '09 and '10 were definitely LeBron's. I don't think Kobe was really ever in the discussion after that.
So were just gonna go by team accomplishments then?

BTW since 81-82, no player has won the "MVP" without a team record of 50 wins (or a 50 win pace for the lockout seasons). 81-82 is right around the time the media started voting on it over the players. Idk...seems kind of like a team award doesn't it? I mean lets just forget Kobe's 35.4 ppg (8th highest ever) and give it to Steve Nash! Because his team won over 50 games...

Edit:

No player has ever won the award unanimously by capturing all of the first-place votes.[3] Shaquille O'Neal in 1999–2000 and LeBron James in 2012–13 are the only two to have fallen one vote shy of a unanimous selection, both receiving 120 of 121 votes.[4] [b]Since the 1982–83 season, every player who has won the award has played for a team with at least a .610 winning percentage (equal to 50 regular-season wins in an 82-game season, except the lockout-shortened 50-game 1998–99 season when Karl Malone won and the lockout-shortened 66-game 2011–12 season when James won).[5]

Until the 1979–80 season, the MVP was originally selected by a vote of NBA players. However, since the 1980–81 season, the award is decided by a panel of sportswriters and broadcasters throughout the United States and Canada, each of whom casts a vote for first to fifth place selections.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Most_Valuable_Player_Award

[Simple Jack]

So were just gonna go by team accomplishments then?

BTW since 81-82, no player has won the "MVP" without a team record of 50 wins (or a 50 win pace for the lockout seasons). 81-82 is right around the time the media started voting on it over the players. Idk...seems kind of like a team award doesn't it? I mean lets just forget Kobe's 35.4 ppg (8th highest ever) and give it to Steve Nash! Because his team won over 50 games...

Edit:


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Most_Valuable_Player_Award

What point are you trying to make exactly?

[Deuce Bigalow]

What point are you trying to make exactly?
MVP should be more about the individual than the team. Wins matter of course since I wont agree with giving an MVP to a player that won his team something like 25 games. Look at what the player actually did that season individually and give the award to the player who had the best individual season.

[Simple Jack]

MVP should be more about the individual than the team. Wins matter of course since I wont agree with giving an MVP to a player that won his team something like 25 games. Look at what the player actually did that season individually and give the award to the player who had the best individual season.

Most of the time it goes hand in hand. I mean how good is someone's season really if it's not translating to some success? If some dude averages 40 ppg in this era but on the Sixers with their current record, you giving him the MVP? I think you'd have to by your standards. Kobe's season was spectacular, but not good enough in my opinion to call it a travesty that he wasn't awarded MVP.

[catquickspider]

I mean, I definitely can't give him anything whilst Shaq was there. '05 they miss the Playoffs, Kobe's injured. '06 and '07. . .I don't know. Leading your team to the 7th seed doesn't beat leading your team to the 1st seed, even if your stats are better. '09 and '10 were definitely LeBron's. I don't think Kobe was really ever in the discussion after that.

Leading your team to a 1st seed in the west>leading your team to a 1st seed in the LEAST in '09

eventually beating the team in the finals that the MVP choked against as well :facepalm

Winning an MVP WHILST shaq on the team is a no no yet winning a team WHILST WADE and BOSH should not be questioned right :lol

Not winning MVP cause Gasol was too much help ok but winning MVP despite better help from Wade AND Bosh :biggums:

[Black Mamba's B]

Leading your team to a 1st seed in the west>leading your team to a 1st seed in the LEAST in '09

eventually beating the team in the finals that the MVP choked against as well :facepalm

Winning an MVP WHILST shaq on the team is a no no yet winning a team WHILST WADE and BOSH should not be questioned right :lol

Not winning MVP cause Gasol was too much help ok but winning MVP despite better help from Wade AND Bosh :biggums:

Basically

[russwest0]

Leading your team to a 1st seed in the west>leading your team to a 1st seed in the LEAST in '09

eventually beating the team in the finals that the MVP choked against as well :facepalm

Winning an MVP WHILST shaq on the team is a no no yet winning a team WHILST WADE and BOSH should not be questioned right :lol

Not winning MVP cause Gasol was too much help ok but winning MVP despite better help from Wade AND Bosh :biggums:

This. The media completely throws out their usual MVP standards (tough competition, poorer teammates) for LeBron. Shit is sad. He's like the Peyton Manning of the NBA.

[T_L_P]

Leading your team to a 1st seed in the west>leading your team to a 1st seed in the LEAST in '09

eventually beating the team in the finals that the MVP choked against as well :facepalm

Winning an MVP WHILST shaq on the team is a no no yet winning a team WHILST WADE and BOSH should not be questioned right :lol

Not winning MVP cause Gasol was too much help ok but winning MVP despite better help from Wade AND Bosh :biggums:

LeBron lead his team to a better record in '09. Their stats:

LeBron: 28.4 / 7.6 / 7.2 / 1.7 / 1.1 / .591 TS%
Kobe: 26.8 / 5.2 / 4.9 / 1.5 / 0.5 / .561 TS%

LeBron clearly deserved the MVP more than Kobe in '09. The Playoffs have nothing to do with it (otherwise Kobe would have absolutely zero argument for the '06 MVP).

And it's not a no-no because Shaq was on the team. It's a no-no because Shaq was on the team and he was better and more important than Kobe. It's why LeBron wasn't the 2011 MVP, because Wade was equally as important to the team's success. Also, iirc Kobe struggled to win games without Shaq in the Regular Season.

Also, when did I once mention Gasol or help here?

[houston]

4 mvps,3 rings,3 finals mvp

[Straight_Ballin]

lol at comparing these 2 players when both of them will never be flawless in finals appearances with 6 FMVPs. What a laughable comparison of two beta's.

[KyrieTheFuture]

Those are the 3 most important accolades any given player can have, in my opinion. The latter represents Lebron's resume if the Heat were to 3-peat, while the latter represents Kobe's current resume.

We can argue about skill, killer instinct, clutch factor, etc. for hours but in the end that's pretty subjective.

What we do have in concrete is accolades.

So, based on that,

Which is better? I want a mature discussion. I am not a stan of either player. My instincts tell me Lebron's accolade line would be better. But I can be convinced otherwise.

I want to hear honest and mature opinions on this, because this will obviously be a very big argument going forward in terms of where to place these two players all time.

I am going to sit back and listen and I will read through all your posts even if they are long.
http://cdn.hellogiggles.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/18/Do-not-think-it-means-289x250.jpeg

[shrempf_on_rice]

NBA coaches vote for all team selections while the media votes for the mvp.
This is not about Kobe and Lebron but I dont know whats the big deal about mvps? Seriously.

Who's *opinions* are more valuable?

[Prometheus]

2002 was literally rigged. That championship is worth ZERO. Kobe has four rings.

How do people just continually ignore this?

Oh and OP, wtf are you thinking bringing up a generic Kobe vs. LeBron argument and asking for a mature discussion? Have you never been here before?

[ripthekik]

lol, the only reason 3 rings 3 fmvp is possible is because that dude joined 2 other all stars in a weak conference.

Forgot to factor that in huh? :lol

[rlsmooth775]

lol, the only reason 3 rings 3 fmvp is possible is because that dude joined 2 other all stars in a weak conference.

Forgot to factor that in huh? :lol

almost as good as having the best center of all time

[LeGOAT]

More FMVPs, 4x as many MVPs. There is no argument if the Heat 3peat this year

[dabigbaws]

the question should be

Mature discussion: 2 rings*, 2 FMVPs*, 4 MVPs vs. 5 rings, 2 FMVP, 1 MVP