Is Dirk the most overrated player on ISH?

[Connor B]

He has 1 MVP, 1 ring/FMVP.



That's it. He has had several good-great teams in Dallas, back with Nash and some of the more recent ones. They blew the 2006 finals (yeah, D-Wade got all those calls, but its absurd they lost 4 straight WITH homecourt advantage), blew 2007 round 1. Are we gonna act like Dirk's play didn't contribute to that? He didn't even have a good finals series against Miami, he was shooting around 41%.


Yet people worship him on here. Why?

[Smook A.]

No wtf he barely gets talked about over here

[russwest0]

should have 2 rings, 2 fmvp's

Dan Crawford'd

/thread

[TheMarkMadsen]

yeah, that 2011 finals is so overrated

[Myth]

OP's mom is overrated.

[k0kakw0rld]

He has 1 MVP, 1 ring/FMVP.



That's it. He has had several good-great teams in Dallas, back with Nash and some of the more recent ones. They blew the 2006 finals (yeah, D-Wade got all those calls, but its absurd they lost 4 straight WITH homecourt advantage), blew 2007 round 1. Are we gonna act like Dirk's play didn't contribute to that? He didn't even have a good finals series against Miami, he was shooting around 41%.


Yet people worship him on here. Why?

Preach!

[smoovegittar]

The way everyone goes on about ringless KD, I'd say no.

[dr.hee]

Yeah, the NBA forum is full of threads about Dirk. Clearly he's the most overrated player on this site. Nice job by OP :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

He has 1 MVP, 1 ring/FMVP.



That's it. He has had several good-great teams in Dallas, back with Nash and some of the more recent ones. They blew the 2006 finals (yeah, D-Wade got all those calls, but its absurd they lost 4 straight WITH homecourt advantage), blew 2007 round 1. Are we gonna act like Dirk's play didn't contribute to that? He didn't even have a good finals series against Miami, he was shooting around 41%.


Yet people worship him on here. Why?


Seems to be pretty accurately ranked somewhere around the top 20 all time.

And who is even talking about him this season on any front? Nobody on ESPN. Nobody here is talking much about him having an overall fantastic season in year 16 of his career...he has dipped noticeably the last few games though.

21/6/3 60% TS and 13 games games over .500...and not much of a mention. Kind of reminds me of Duncan's season last year...nobody was talking much about it...just more of the same from one of the best players ever.

[J Shuttlesworth]

WTF? I would think he's underrated on here if anything. Nobody talks about him unless he's beating LeBron/Wade

[fpliii]

Karl Malone, Clyde Drexler, and Isiah Thomas are more overrated IMO.


yeah, that 2011 finals is so overrated
11 Finals is definitely overrated. Outplayed by DWade except for a couple of 4th quarters.

His 11 playoffs as a whole were insane though.

[r0drig0lac]

no, this has to be chris paul

[Basketbolero]

How the hell is he overrated when no one talks about him?

He is only mentioned when trolls bring up 2011 finals, 2006 finals or their 1st round loss to GS.

[DMAVS41]

How the hell is he overrated when no one talks about him?

He is only mentioned when trolls bring up 2011 finals, 2006 finals or their 1st round loss to GS.


Exactly...posted this in another thread earlier;

Last 14 seasons for each player (not counting this year for Kobe)

Regular season

Kobe 28/6/5 55.6% TS 24.1 PER
Dirk 24/9/3 58.4% TS 24.2 PER

Playoffs

Kobe 28/5/5 54.3% TS 23.0 PER
Dirk 26/10/3 58.4% TS 24.7 PER

And Kobe played with better help over that time...even including the shit 06 and 07 teams.

When both were off the court;

Lakers were - 1.5 without Kobe during that time
Mavs were - 3.6 without Dirk during that time

But yea...he's way over-rated...

[Dro]

Umm...Honestly? I would probably say Kobe.....

[Cone]

hell no. most underrated if anything

lets see how his career would have turned out if he actually had a HOFer in his prime like all other 'greats'

[MavsSuperFan]

Karl Malone, Clyde Drexler, and Isiah Thomas are more overrated IMO.


11 Finals is definitely overrated. Outplayed by DWade except for a couple of 4th quarters.

His 11 playoffs as a whole were insane though.
Thats like saying if it wasnt for her tits upton would be average.

You are ignoring a significant factor.

[Clyde]

Dirk is one of the greatest players in History.

It will be a looooooooooooooooong time before we see another Dirk.....if we ever do.

[Basketbolero]

Exactly...posted this in another thread earlier;

Last 14 seasons for each player (not counting this year for Kobe)

Regular season

Kobe 28/6/5 55.6% TS 24.1 PER
Dirk 24/9/3 58.4% TS 24.2 PER

Playoffs

Kobe 28/5/5 54.3% TS 23.0 PER
Dirk 26/10/3 58.4% TS 24.7 PER

And Kobe played with better help over that time...even including the shit 06 and 07 teams.

When both were off the court;

Lakers were - 1.5 without Kobe during that time
Mavs were - 3.6 without Dirk during that time

But yea...he's way over-rated...
I don't find that stat much valuable to compare such different players and situations to be honest but Dirk is a guy that was close to Duncan and around KG's level in his prime and people act like it is a stupid comparison to make. That pisses me off.

[Dro]

hell no. most underrated if anything

lets see how his career would have turned out if he actually had a HOFer in his prime like all other 'greats'
Kobe?

[TheMarkMadsen]

Thats like saying if it wasnt for her tits upton would be average.

You are ignoring a significant factor.

which would be?

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Nah, he's properly rated. Now Kobe. He's overrated.

[Cone]

Kobe?

yup

[MavsSuperFan]

which would be?
In the case of how dirk performed vs wade, The 4th quarter performances of dirk in the 2011 finals.

[red1]

nah he's not overrated

[Patrick Chewing]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_maz3tt1rBT1rpga6zo1_1280.jpg

[Artillery]

This thread begins and ends with Kobe.

[SexSymbol]

Karl Malone, Clyde Drexler, and Isiah Thomas are more overrated IMO.


11 Finals is definitely overrated. Outplayed by DWade except for a couple of 4th quarters.

His 11 playoffs as a whole were insane though.
Please watch the games before making a fool out of yourself in front of everybody

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Please watch the games before making a fool out of yourself in front of everybody

You really are a moron.

[SexSymbol]

You really are a moron.
You really don't watch games, and base the evaluations of players on stats, there's literally nothing to talk to you about basketball besides numbers, because that's the only way you could imply, that Wade was on Dirk's level or beyond.
Dirk was much better defensively and considerably better offensively given the circumstances, it is quite obvious for anybody who watched at least two damn games of that series

[navy]

.
Dirk was much better defensively and considerably better offensively given the circumstances, it is quite obvious for anybody who watched at least two damn games of that series

:roll:

[HoopsFanNumero1]

You really don't watch games, and base the evaluations of players on stats, there's literally nothing to talk to you about basketball besides numbers, because that's the only way you could imply, that Wade was on Dirk's level or beyond.
Dirk was much better defensively and considerably better offensively given the circumstances, it is quite obvious for anybody who watched at least two damn games of that series

Dirk? Defense? :roll:

Yeah, you're a clown.

[ThePhantomCreep]

Eh, it's probably Duncan.

Dude even gets rated above Bird and Magic by a bunch of posters. When was his last 20/10 season again?

[red1]

You really don't watch games, and base the evaluations of players on stats, there's literally nothing to talk to you about basketball besides numbers, because that's the only way you could imply, that Wade was on Dirk's level or beyond.
Dirk was much better defensively and considerably better offensively given the circumstances, it is quite obvious for anybody who watched at least two damn games of that series
You are one of the least informed posters on this board. Everything you post is wrong

[fpliii]

Please watch the games before making a fool out of yourself in front of everybody
:oldlol: Is this real life?

[fpliii]

You really don't watch games, and base the evaluations of players on stats, there's literally nothing to talk to you about basketball besides numbers, because that's the only way you could imply, that Wade was on Dirk's level or beyond.
Dirk was much better defensively and considerably better offensively given the circumstances, it is quite obvious for anybody who watched at least two damn games of that series
:facepalm Shit like this is why other fanbases hate us on this board. ****ing check yourself, and don't respond to me again in the future until you educate yourself.

[Anaximandro1]

most overrated? Bird,Kobe,Garnett,Malone,Ewing,Webber...

Raw stats are skewed by pace. Advanced stats are more useful and reliable.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-7Fc8MgrRWNQ/UzDXvfzJy1I/AAAAAAAACr4/Sx0y9LDT2Ig/s1600/5.jpg

[TheMarkMadsen]

most overrated? Bird,Kobe,Garnett,Malone,Ewing,Webber...

Raw stats are skewed by pace. Advanced stats are more useful and reliable.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-7Fc8MgrRWNQ/UzDXvfzJy1I/AAAAAAAACr4/Sx0y9LDT2Ig/s1600/5.jpg


PER, Ort, Drgt :roll:

[riseagainst]

he led his team and destroyed the Miami Heat big 3 in their primes.

[Collie]

Name the other players who have at least 1 ring, 1 MVP and 1 FMVP.

You'll see that it's a pretty ****ing short list.

[nathanjizzle]

Hes definitely overrated. people put him up their with tim duncan, thats a joke. hes on KGs level.

[SCdac]

Overrated or not, OP is making some of the worst threads :facepalm

[Collie]

Hes definitely overrated. people put him up their with tim duncan, thats a joke. hes on KGs level.

Haven't actually seen anyone place him in TD (top 10) territory. Most have him on the bottom half of the top 20 or a little past that, which is just about right.

[livingby3's]

Well he was once labelled one of the, if not the biggest choker ever before that 2011 performance. That ring changed many many opinions. That said, the path to his championship was probably underrated. He didn't only beat the Heat with big 3 in 6, but also LA n OKC with a combined record of 8-1 to emerge out west. That season alone boosted his status alot

[DMAVS41]

Hes definitely overrated. people put him up their with tim duncan, thats a joke. hes on KGs level.

Nobody puts Dirk on par with Duncan...I've never seen anyone do this.

[Cone]

Well he was once labelled one of the, if not the biggest choker ever before that 2011 performance. That ring changed many many opinions. That said, the path to his championship was probably underrated. He didn't only beat the Heat with big 3 in 6, but also LA n OKC with a combined record of 8-1 to emerge out west. That season alone boosted his status alot

who ever considered dirk 'biggest choker ever' is a ****ing retard in the first place.

some one like nathanjizzle would say that. that dude is ****ed in the head

[DMAVS41]

who ever considered dirk 'biggest choker ever' is a ****ing retard in the first place.

some one like nathanjizzle would say that. that dude is ****ed in the head

The problem with accurately ranking Dirk before 2011 was that his help and teams/coaches were extremely over-rated on here outside of a few years.

People just saw regular season win totals (not a great indication of true team strength for winning a title) and assumed the Mavs were awesome and Dirk was holding them back from winning.

Mavs fans knew that wasn't what was happening, but at some point the ESPN narrative of the soft foreign player that didn't play defense took over even though that was almost never the case at any point in his career...

His teams overachieved in the playoffs more than they underachieved...

The Mavs had the best record in close games for like an 8 year span in the league...

He won 50 or more 11 straight times (done by only 3 other teams in NBA history)

On and on...

I don't see any good evidence to think he's over-rated at all...nobody puts him in the top 12 all time...so I have no idea where the idea that people put him on the Duncan level comes from.

Again...how many players in NBA history have a regular season MVP, finals MVP, and a title? I bet the list is pretty small...

He's had a long career and he's had a pretty damn unreal 15 year stretch as a damn good player...

[kentatm]

11 Finals is definitely overrated. Outplayed by DWade except for a couple of 4th quarters.


:lol


Give Dirk a LeBron level player to distract a defense for an entire series and see how his shooting and scoring go.

[Euroleague]

Yes. He's not the best European player ever, yet you get ruthlessly and viciously attacked for even mentioning that.

So yes, he's definitely the most overrated player here.

Probably 2nd is Sabonis.

[FLDFSU]

Nope. Steve Nash is.

[DMAVS41]

:lol


Give Dirk a LeBron level player to distract a defense for an entire series and see how his shooting and scoring go.

This.

Oh how I would have just once loved to see Dirk play next to a truly great player that could make the defense not focus so much on Dirk...or said player get Dirk a bunch of great shots every night.

[DMAVS41]

Yes. He's not the best European player ever, yet you get ruthlessly and viciously attacked for even mentioning that.

So yes, he's definitely the most overrated player here.

Probably 2nd is Sabonis.

God.

Shut the **** up...

[mr.big35]

God.

Shut the **** up...

his right you know

[DMAVS41]

his right you know

Please defend the position that Dirk is the most over-rated player on ISH.

Please...

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Karl Malone, Clyde Drexler, and Isiah Thomas are more overrated IMO.


11 Finals is definitely overrated. Outplayed by DWade except for a couple of 4th quarters.

His 11 playoffs as a whole were insane though.
Complete myth. Dirk was the focus of the Heat defense was getting doubled and tripled alot. Wade saw alot of single coverages and Dirk was the best defensive rebounder in the finals by far and their rebounding was big part of them winning. Dirk avged 10ppg in 4th quarters and 12 in the finals he was easily the best player in the finals

[Fazotronic]

Yes. He's not the best European player ever, yet you get ruthlessly and viciously attacked for even mentioning that.

So yes, he's definitely the most overrated player here.

Probably 2nd is Sabonis.

already thought i had to explain but its you... the most hated guy on here? top 3?

so everybody knows that everybody is overrated for you that puts vassilis spanoulis to shame.
now you can't even call him the best european player let alone best player in the world. of course you underrate dirk as everybody relevant clearly thinks dirk is the best european player. no freakin argument you can make that will chance that fact.

you understand this? EVERY SINGLE PERSON THAT MATTERS.
haha suck on it.

[97 bulls]

I think hes overrated by some. Far too much credit is given to him for 2011. And the NBA Finals was a fluke. Play that series out ten times, and the Mavs lose eight of them.

I remember him as having some damn good teams and just not seeing it through.

Far too many stinkers.

[Fire Colangelo]

How's he overrated. He's underrated if anything.

I've seen people label him soft, defensive liability, shitty rebounder, etc just because he's white.

He's not soft, he's not a liability and he's a good rebounder who always ups his rebounding numbers in the playoffs.

Maybe Garnett's a better defender, but give me Dirk over KG as the first option any day. Dirk led his team to 50+ wins for 11 straight seasons, has KG ever done that? Dirk led his team to a championship as the #1 option, where was KG before he had Ray and Pierce, and later Rondo?

Jesus i love KG but this dirk hate is ridiculous.

[Cone]

I think hes overrated by some. Far too much credit is given to him for 2011. And the NBA Finals was a fluke. Play that series out ten times, and the Mavs lose eight of them.

I remember him as having some damn good teams and just not seeing it through.

Far too many stinkers.
too many stinkers? wtf?

06 and 07 are the only ones. not to mention 06 was the most rigged POS series ever.

give dirk a star in his prime then his career looks much different to people like yourself

[Cone]

How's he overrated. He's underrated if anything.

I've seen people label him soft, defensive liability, shitty rebounder, etc just because he's white.

He's not soft, he's not a liability and he's a good rebounder who always ups his rebounding numbers in the playoffs.

Maybe Garnett's a better defender, but give me Dirk over KG as the first option any day. Dirk led his team to 50+ wins for 11 straight seasons, has KG ever done that? Dirk led his team to a championship as the #1 option, where was KG before he had Ray and Pierce, and later Rondo?

Jesus i love KG but this dirk hate is ridiculous.

wait, what are you doing?

this post is too smart for ISH

[97 bulls]

too many stinkers? wtf?

06 and 07 are the only ones. not to mention 06 was the most rigged POS series ever.

give dirk a star in his prime then his career looks much different to people like yourself
He had one. Steve Nash

[Fire Colangelo]

He had one. Steve Nash

Nash wasn't exactly a star before he went to Phoenix. He was good, an all star, but not a star. His all star selections back then were kind of like... Mo William/Jameer Nelson type of all star selections.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Nash wasn't exactly a star before he went to Phoenix. He was good, an all star, but not a star. His all star selections back then were kind of like... Mo William/Jameer Nelson type of all star selections.


riiiight he must have developed into a MVP type player from june of 2005 to October of 2005

[mr.big35]

too many stinkers? wtf?

06 and 07 are the only ones. not to mention 06 was the most rigged POS series ever.

give dirk a star in his prime then his career looks much different to people like yourself

what about 2010 when they were second seed and lost to the spurs in the first round

[mr.big35]

Please defend the position that Dirk is the most over-rated player on ISH.

Please...

good regular season but disappears in playoffs

[Cone]

good regular season but disappears in playoffs

:biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

dumbass

[Fire Colangelo]

riiiight he must have developed into a MVP type player from june of 2005 to October of 2005

Obviously Nash benefitted from D'Antoni's system, doesn't make him a star player prior to 05 tho.

[The-Legend-24]

Bill Russell.

Especially when they call him the GOAT or top 10. :oldlol:

[mr.big35]

:biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

dumbass

how many times his team were one and done in playoffs

[Brizzly]

I think his 11 finals is very overrated, people talkin about it being one of the best ever and mostly that was around the time he won it and people were excited but i mean i watched the series again and now I think it got way overblown.

Maybe it was the fact he beat the big three that made it great in peoples eyes.

[D.J.]

I don't really see Dirk talked about much here. But I always felt he should have more than 1 title. The Mavs have been consistently good for the last 12-13 years.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Obviously Nash benefitted from D'Antoni's system, doesn't make him a star player prior to 05 tho.


not only did he have steve nash he also had Michael Finley who was putting up 20/5/5 for nearly 6 years

[97 bulls]

not only did he have steve nash he also had Michael Finley who was putting up 20/5/5 for nearly 6 years
Amd not just them. The mavs have always had one of the top sixthmen and solid centers in the league.

Nick Van Exel

Antawn Jamison

Jason Terry

A poster made a comment about Kevin Garnett. Garnetts best team was the 94 team that battled the Lakers. Dirks Mavs have had that kind of talent every year.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Amd not just them. The mavs have always had one of the top sixthmen and solid centers in the league.

Nick Van Exel

Antawn Jamison

Jason Terry

A poster made a comment about Kevin Garnett. Garnetts best team was the 04 team that battled the Lakers. Dirks Mavs have had that kind of talent every year.

that's a great point

[moe94]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-EeBfVv2Cpik/UONcMgBqZyI/AAAAAAAAAB8/hNgF241yvrg/s1600/Dirk-U-Mad.jpg

He is shitting on the current MVP of the league in his twilight years. Dirk the one.

[-p.tiddy-]

Dirk :bowdown:

[oarabbus]

So overrated he just schooled KD :bowdown:

Clutch gawd all through the 4th :bowdown: and OT

[DMAVS41]

Amd not just them. The mavs have always had one of the top sixthmen and solid centers in the league.

Nick Van Exel

Antawn Jamison

Jason Terry

A poster made a comment about Kevin Garnett. Garnetts best team was the 94 team that battled the Lakers. Dirks Mavs have had that kind of talent every year.

Just leave. You know nothing about the Mavs or Dirk

[Doranku]

How can anyone talk bad about Dirk? Dude is one of the most likable players in the league.

[Cold soul]

Dirk is one of the most underrated NBA greats ever. Not even close to being overrated.

[Pointguard]

How's he overrated. He's underrated if anything.

I've seen people label him soft, defensive liability, shitty rebounder, etc just because he's white.

He's not soft, he's not a liability and he's a good rebounder who always ups his rebounding numbers in the playoffs.

Maybe Garnett's a better defender, but give me Dirk over KG as the first option any day. Dirk led his team to 50+ wins for 11 straight seasons, has KG ever done that? Dirk led his team to a championship as the #1 option, where was KG before he had Ray and Pierce, and later Rondo?

Jesus i love KG but this dirk hate is ridiculous.

This is exactly why Dirk gets overrated.

Shaq, Kobe, Oscar, Bird, Hakeem, Wilt, West, even Russell didn't accomplish that. My guess is its only Magic and Duncan that achieved it. Is Dirk the third best player ever because of his team accomplishment? Dirk is great, no doubt but the analogies aren't his and are overblown the argument. And sometimes, it the organizer and orchestrator that should get credit. SA is doing this like 16 years in a row and Duncan is not top five. Heck when Duncan misses 16 games the team still wins 60 and win it all. Some organizations are just good from top to bottom.

Btw, KG was the number 1 option when he won the chip. But that shouldn't be part of this argument anyway.

I don't think Dirk is overated.

[TMac&Luther]

Well this just became a fail thread of epic proportions. :roll:

[atljonesbro]

Most overrated? Penny Hardaway or Reggie Miller

[97 bulls]

Just leave. You know nothing about the Mavs or Dirk
Now hold on. Why the angst? What did I say that you would disagree with? Were the guys mentioned not some of the best sixthmen in the league? Was not Raef Lafrenz and Erick Dampier solid centers? Arguably top 10?

And before you start, im not implying that the centers that were on the Mavs during the 00s were on Shaqs or Mings level. But relative to what was in the league at that time, they were solid.

So now you have a top 5 PG in Nash, top 5 SG in Finley, top 5 sixthman, to go along with Dirk.

[DMAVS41]

Now hold on. Why the angst? What did I say that you would disagree with? Were the guys mentioned not some of the best sixthmen in the league? Was not Raef Lafrenz and Erick Dampier solid centers? Arguably top 10?

And before you start, im not implying that the centers that were on the Mavs during the 00s were on Shaqs or Mings level. But relative to what was in the league at that time, they were solid.

So now you have a top 5 PG in Nash, top 5 SG in Finley, top 5 sixthman, to go along with Dirk.

Because you would know that the only team that had those guys with a chance to do anything was in 03... And you act like it was a bad year or something.

Do you realize they were the 2nd best team in 03... Arguably the best before Dirk went down.... You act like they didn't make the WCF and lose Dirk in game 3

Dirk had good teams... He just didn't have legit title level help often... If ever outside of 03 honestly

Again though... What stinkers besides 07? They either overachieved or went as far as expected every other year other than a total toss up series in 10 against the Spurs in which Dirk was amazing

[Patrick Chewing]

OP fails at life

[JUDGE WITNESS]

hes never even talked about here barring when people try to ridicule lebron

[spacebump]

riiiight he must have developed into a MVP type player from june of 2005 to October of 2005

Nash has mentioned multiple times that Cuban not wanting to resign him led to him being more focused in the off season/getting better. :coleman:

[goldcrow]

Punks KD in the 4th and OT yet is called overrated by these clowns. :facepalm

[mehyaM24]

he is underrated if anything. theres the myth dirk has always been his 2007 former self.

only problem with that is, dirk is statistically one of the best playoff performers ever. ****ing idiots.

[DMAVS41]

Now hold on. Why the angst? What did I say that you would disagree with? Were the guys mentioned not some of the best sixthmen in the league? Was not Raef Lafrenz and Erick Dampier solid centers? Arguably top 10?

And before you start, im not implying that the centers that were on the Mavs during the 00s were on Shaqs or Mings level. But relative to what was in the league at that time, they were solid.

So now you have a top 5 PG in Nash, top 5 SG in Finley, top 5 sixthman, to go along with Dirk.

Lets take a look at the kind of help Dirk really has had compared to guys winning the title. For starters, Dirk has never had anyone on his teams as good as Kobe, Shaq, Lebron, Wade, Paul Pierce, peak Ginobili, peak Parker...etc.

Think about the teams that have won since Dirk was in the league.

Duncan led Spurs
Kobe/Shaq Lakers
Pistons
Duncan led Spurs
Wade/Shaq Heat
Duncan led Spurs
KG/Pierce/Allen Celtics
Kobe/Gasol/Odom Lakers
Dirk led Mavs
Lebron/Wade/Bosh Heat

Like...seriously...do you actually think Dirk has had comparable help? He's never played with guys that good before. He's never played with a Wade or Kobe or Pierce or Gasol or Shaq...etc. He just hasn't. Kind of hard to beat some players that are better or equals with less help and worse coaching...no?

And the most important thing for winning a title is absolutely having that all nba type 2nd guy. Just look at the 11 Mavs. You think it's random that the Mavs won with Terry playing like he did? Terry played like a legit all-star...no even all-nba level...and we won.

You also ignore that we actually have had shit centers for the most part. In fact, we didn't even play centers early on. Lafrentz...are you serious? He's a fine player, but he's redundant with Dirk. Diop/Damp? Not terrible, but hardly good.

So not only did Dirk go pretty much entire career (again, outside of 03) without having the all-nba 2nd guy almost always needed...he also was missing a key part of what you would want around him at center.

I want to emphasize this...03 was probably the best team Dirk ever had. I agree with you. The problem was that he had to play against a better player at his peak...and we still could have won the WCF if Dirk didn't get hurt. It was probably going 7...and Dirk has never lost a game 7. I'm not saying we would have won, but it was close to a toss up. And you act like it was some failed year with his 03 cast you keep railing on.

We won 60 games and had the best offense in the league and somehow managed the 9th best defense despite not having a great defensive roster.

We then made the WCF and won game 1 in San Antonio with Dirk going for;

38/15/2 on 72% TS

LOL...yea, too many stinkers!!! :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Oh, and in 03...for some reason this loaded team you keep talking about;

With Dirk on the court they were +12.6 points per 100 possessions
Without Dirk on the court they were - 7.8

Take a look at the only team better than us that year;

With Duncan on the court they were +9.1 points per 100 possessions
Without Duncan on the court they were - 5.6

Now, I want to be clear that those numbers mean more for regular seasons as stars play more in the playoffs and there is noise in the on/off stuff. However, why it's important for Dirk over the course of his career...is that he's suffered both. He hasn't had other star help...and his teams have universally sucked without him on the court. It's really hard to win with that.

Dirk has had one team in his entire career that had a positive point differential with him off the court. And it was in 06 with a plus .2 differential over 100 possessions.

For Dirk's career...his teams are -3.6 without him.
For Duncan's career...his teams are +1.4 without him.

Think about that. Duncan not only played with better help in Parker and Manu, but when he's off the court...his teams were 5 points better than Dirk's over the course of their careers. And he had significantly better coaching until Carlisle came to Dallas.

Like, does trying to win with Avery Johnson factor at all into your thinking?

And that is just the Spurs.

The Lakers with Phil Shaq Kobe were even farther ahead.

So you've got 11 straight 50 win seasons. 3 WCF trips. 2 trips to the finals. 1 title. 1 MVP...playing in the era of Shaq, Kobe, KG, Duncan, Wade, Lebron, Durant...

And his best team was early on in his career in 03...

If you knew anything about the Mavs you'd know that the team you think was good in 04 actually wasn't. Finley started his decline, Nash was hurt off and on all year...and we played the redundant Walker/Jamison...and didn't play a center. Najera was our center and he played 12.4 minutes a game...LOL

I mean...don't you think there might be a team flaw when your best player goes for 27/12/2 56% TS and you get slaughtered in 5 games in round 1? You really holding Dirk responsible for that?

[DMAVS41]

Anyone interested in a great breakdown of the impact that Dirk and the Mavs have had on Ellis and vice versa;

http://grantland.com/features/dallas-mavericks-monta-ellis-dirk-nowitzki-2014/

http://espngrantland.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/dirk_1152.jpg?w=524&h=435

[mr.big35]

his still a career underachiever besides the 11 season

[DMAVS41]

his still a career underachiever besides the 11 season

Could you explain more about that. Like how many titles should Dirk have won playing with inferior help to at least 1 other elite player each year?

I also don't get that as the Mavs actually over-achieved in the playoffs on the whole...they went farther than expected more years than not going as far as expected.

[chocolatethunder]

Could you explain more about that. Like how many titles should Dirk have won playing with inferior help to at least 1 other elite player each year?

I also don't get that as the Mavs actually over-achieved in the playoffs on the whole...they went farther than expected more years than not going as far as expected.
What he means by that is that he's white so he can't possibly be good.

[mr.big35]

Could you explain more about that. Like how many titles should Dirk have won playing with inferior help to at least 1 other elite player each year?

I also don't get that as the Mavs actually over-achieved in the playoffs on the whole...they went farther than expected more years than not going as far as expected.

2007 2008 and especially 2010 when they were 2nd seed to be eliminated in first round. 2006 and 2011 those were the best seasons for nowitzki overall. handleful of 1st round exists. they were great regular season team not good playoff teams they are like the peyton manning.

[DMAVS41]

2007 2008 and especially 2010 when they were 2nd seed to be eliminated in first round. 2006 and 2011 those were the best seasons for nowitzki overall. handleful of 1st round exists. they were great regular season team not good playoff teams they are like the peyton manning.

2007...totally agree. fair criticism. my response would be that there were some crazy circumstances surrounding that loss and that the warriors were a night mare matchup. did you know that Dirk's dad was having major surgery in the middle of that series? or how about the fact that many people in Dallas thought Dirk was hiding an injury the last month of the regular season?

We can throw out any excuses if you like though...and say it was just a horrible series for Dirk and the Mavs.

08? I'm confused...what about the 08 team makes you think it was any good? With Dirk on the court we were plus 8.6...without him were were minus 3.2.

We only had Kidd for like 30 game iirc and Kidd and Terry were dreadful in the playoffs.

Dirk went for 27/12/4 59% TS in the playoffs...

You really need to rethink your position on 08.


2010? Again...you say the 2 seed like it was a big difference. We were playing the Spurs. A spurs team that had Parker miss like 30 games due to injury and they still won only 5 less games. It was just basically two even teams playing each other...neither team was actually all that good to be honest.

Dirk went for 27/8/3 64% TS in that series...

Kidd, Terry, and Marion were all dreadful against the Spurs in 2010

Your Manning analogy is horrible. Manning gets worse in the playoffs...Dirk gets better...noticeably. He plays more minutes and is one of a select group of players that actually sees his ppg and overall efficiency increase despite playing better competition.

A useful analogy would be to a team that builds teams great for regular season success, but not for playoff success.

Again...winning in the regular season with an all time great like Dirk and solid depth is pretty easy. Winning in the playoffs without a 2nd star or at the very least quality center play or a great defense is extremely rare.

So what you are speaking to is just you misunderstanding what it takes to win in the playoffs and just failing to grasp the differences between the regular season and playoffs.

Also, you clearly haven't realized that Dirk gets better in the playoffs...making the Manning comparison absurdly ignorant.

Also, Dirk actually hasn't underachieved often in the playoffs

01 - upset the jazz and advanced further than expected
02 - beat the KG led Wolves that everyone thought was going to shut down Dirk. We didn't upset them or anything like that, but it was a toss up series going in and Dirk shredded prime KG and the Wolves. Then we lost to the hugely favored 02 Kings
03 - Made the WCF as expected and Dirk got hurt in game 3...after destroying the Spurs in game 1 with 38/15/2
04 - Lost to the favored Kings
05 - Lost to the favored Suns
06 - Went further than expected as we upset the 06 Spurs in game 7 with Dirk going for 37/15 and making the game winning play to send it to OT on the road (only team to beat the Spurs at the peak of their powers from 05 through 07)

07 - totally agree. terrible series for Dirk and Mavs and Avery...put it all on Dirk if you like

08 - Lost to the favored Hornets. Dirk played great
09 - Upset the Spurs and then lost to the favored Nuggets...Dirk played great
10 - Upset by the Spurs...Dirk played great
11 - Won the title as one of the biggest, if not the biggest, underdogs in the modern NBa era to win the title
12 - Lost to the favored Thunder...Dirk played very well


Counting a total toss up series in 2010 against the Spurs in which Dirk played great (27/8/3 64% TS)...the Mavs had failed to advance as far as expected a total of two times. 07 and 10

The Mavs advanced farther than expected in 01, 06, 09, and 11...and if you count 10 as an upset...hard not to count the shredding of the KG Wolves in 02 as one as well..but I won't even do that

So again...how is that Manning?

[Rocketswin2013]

Lets take a look at the kind of help Dirk really has had compared to guys winning the title. For starters, Dirk has never had anyone on his teams as good as Kobe, Shaq, Lebron, Wade, Paul Pierce, peak Ginobili, peak Parker...etc.

Think about the teams that have won since Dirk was in the league.

Duncan led Spurs
Kobe/Shaq Lakers
Pistons
Duncan led Spurs
Wade/Shaq Heat
Duncan led Spurs
KG/Pierce/Allen Celtics
Kobe/Gasol/Odom Lakers
Dirk led Mavs
Lebron/Wade/Bosh Heat

Like...seriously...do you actually think Dirk has had comparable help? He's never played with guys that good before. He's never played with a Wade or Kobe or Pierce or Gasol or Shaq...etc. He just hasn't. Kind of hard to beat some players that are better or equals with less help and worse coaching...no?

And the most important thing for winning a title is absolutely having that all nba type 2nd guy. Just look at the 11 Mavs. You think it's random that the Mavs won with Terry playing like he did? Terry played like a legit all-star...no even all-nba level...and we won.

You also ignore that we actually have had shit centers for the most part. In fact, we didn't even play centers early on. Lafrentz...are you serious? He's a fine player, but he's redundant with Dirk. Diop/Damp? Not terrible, but hardly good.

So not only did Dirk go pretty much entire career (again, outside of 03) without having the all-nba 2nd guy almost always needed...he also was missing a key part of what you would want around him at center.

I want to emphasize this...03 was probably the best team Dirk ever had. I agree with you. The problem was that he had to play against a better player at his peak...and we still could have won the WCF if Dirk didn't get hurt. It was probably going 7...and Dirk has never lost a game 7. I'm not saying we would have won, but it was close to a toss up. And you act like it was some failed year with his 03 cast you keep railing on.

We won 60 games and had the best offense in the league and somehow managed the 9th best defense despite not having a great defensive roster.

We then made the WCF and won game 1 in San Antonio with Dirk going for;

38/15/2 on 72% TS

LOL...yea, too many stinkers!!! :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Oh, and in 03...for some reason this loaded team you keep talking about;

With Dirk on the court they were +12.6 points per 100 possessions
Without Dirk on the court they were - 7.8

Take a look at the only team better than us that year;

With Duncan on the court they were +9.1 points per 100 possessions
Without Duncan on the court they were - 5.6

Now, I want to be clear that those numbers mean more for regular seasons as stars play more in the playoffs and there is noise in the on/off stuff. However, why it's important for Dirk over the course of his career...is that he's suffered both. He hasn't had other star help...and his teams have universally sucked without him on the court. It's really hard to win with that.

Dirk has had one team in his entire career that had a positive point differential with him off the court. And it was in 06 with a plus .2 differential over 100 possessions.

For Dirk's career...his teams are -3.6 without him.
For Duncan's career...his teams are +1.4 without him.

Think about that. Duncan not only played with better help in Parker and Manu, but when he's off the court...his teams were 5 points better than Dirk's over the course of their careers. And he had significantly better coaching until Carlisle came to Dallas.

Like, does trying to win with Avery Johnson factor at all into your thinking?

And that is just the Spurs.

The Lakers with Phil Shaq Kobe were even farther ahead.

So you've got 11 straight 50 win seasons. 3 WCF trips. 2 trips to the finals. 1 title. 1 MVP...playing in the era of Shaq, Kobe, KG, Duncan, Wade, Lebron, Durant...

And his best team was early on in his career in 03...

If you knew anything about the Mavs you'd know that the team you think was good in 04 actually wasn't. Finley started his decline, Nash was hurt off and on all year...and we played the redundant Walker/Jamison...and didn't play a center. Najera was our center and he played 12.4 minutes a game...LOL

I mean...don't you think there might be a team flaw when your best player goes for 27/12/2 56% TS and you get slaughtered in 5 games in round 1? You really holding Dirk responsible for that?

^^^^^^


Lazarus-esque LONG POST.

[chocolatethunder]

2007...totally agree. fair criticism. my response would be that there were some crazy circumstances surrounding that loss and that the warriors were a night mare matchup. did you know that Dirk's dad was having major surgery in the middle of that series? or how about the fact that many people in Dallas thought Dirk was hiding an injury the last month of the regular season?

We can throw out any excuses if you like though...and say it was just a horrible series for Dirk and the Mavs.

08? I'm confused...what about the 08 team makes you think it was any good? With Dirk on the court we were plus 8.6...without him were were minus 3.2.

We only had Kidd for like 30 game iirc and Kidd and Terry were dreadful in the playoffs.

Dirk went for 27/12/4 59% TS in the playoffs...

You really need to rethink your position on 08.


2010? Again...you say the 2 seed like it was a big difference. We were playing the Spurs. A spurs team that had Parker miss like 30 games due to injury and they still won only 5 less games. It was just basically two even teams playing each other...neither team was actually all that good to be honest.

Dirk went for 27/8/3 64% TS in that series...

Kidd, Terry, and Marion were all dreadful against the Spurs in 2010

Your Manning analogy is horrible. Manning gets worse in the playoffs...Dirk gets better...noticeably. He plays more minutes and is one of a select group of players that actually sees his ppg and overall efficiency increase despite playing better competition.

A useful analogy would be to a team that builds teams great for regular season success, but not for playoff success.

Again...winning in the regular season with an all time great like Dirk and solid depth is pretty easy. Winning in the playoffs without a 2nd star or at the very least quality center play or a great defense is extremely rare.

So what you are speaking to is just you misunderstanding what it takes to win in the playoffs and just failing to grasp the differences between the regular season and playoffs.

Also, you clearly haven't realized that Dirk gets better in the playoffs...making the Manning comparison absurdly ignorant.

Also, Dirk actually hasn't underachieved often in the playoffs

01 - upset the jazz and advanced further than expected
02 - beat the KG led Wolves that everyone thought was going to shut down Dirk. We didn't upset them or anything like that, but it was a toss up series going in and Dirk shredded prime KG and the Wolves. Then we lost to the hugely favored 02 Kings
03 - Made the WCF as expected and Dirk got hurt in game 3...after destroying the Spurs in game 1 with 38/15/2
04 - Lost to the favored Kings
05 - Lost to the favored Suns
06 - Went further than expected as we upset the 06 Spurs in game 7 with Dirk going for 37/15 and making the game winning play to send it to OT on the road (only team to beat the Spurs at the peak of their powers from 05 through 07)

07 - totally agree. terrible series for Dirk and Mavs and Avery...put it all on Dirk if you like

08 - Lost to the favored Hornets. Dirk played great
09 - Upset the Spurs and then lost to the favored Nuggets...Dirk played great
10 - Upset by the Spurs...Dirk played great
11 - Won the title as one of the biggest, if not the biggest, underdogs in the modern NBa era to win the title
12 - Lost to the favored Thunder...Dirk played very well


Counting a total toss up series in 2010 against the Spurs in which Dirk played great (27/8/3 64% TS)...the Mavs had failed to advance as far as expected a total of two times. 07 and 10

The Mavs advanced farther than expected in 01, 06, 09, and 11...and if you count 10 as an upset...hard not to count the shredding of the KG Wolves in 02 as one as well..but I won't even do that

So again...how is that Manning?
I don't care how long this post was, everyone should be required to read this before being allowed to post here. Well done.

[eklip]

his still a career underachiever besides the 11 season
If you compare Dallas' playoff performances with their record:
2012: expected
2011: overachieved
2010: underachieved
2009: overachieved
2008: expected
2007: underachieved
2006: overachieved
2005: expected
2004: expected
2003: expected
2002: expected
2001: overachieved

Dirk was also the main reason why Dallas was so good in the regular season and he is statistically one of the best playoff performers in NBA history.
He was in two finals without another all-star and won one ring.

Edit: Didn't see DMAVS41's post before

[DMAVS41]

If you compare Dallas' playoff performances with their record:
2012: expected
2011: overachieved
2010: underachieved
2009: overachieved
2008: expected
2007: underachieved
2006: overachieved
2005: expected
2004: expected
2003: expected
2002: expected
2001: overachieved

Dirk was also the main reason why Dallas was so good in the regular season and he is statistically one of the best playoff performers in NBA history.
He was in two finals without another all-star and won one ring.

Edit: Didn't see DMAVS41's post before

Yes...the point you make at the end is very important. The reason these teams were winning so many games in the regular season was mainly because of Dirk.

Again...over his career, Dirk's teams have a minus 3.6 differential without him on the court. That is simply not good...I did the stats recently and I think only KG and Lebron got worse off performance from their help.

It's kind of odd isn't it. You grade a team on their regular seasons wins...and then turn around and ignore that the main reason said team won as many games was because of a player. Then that player gets better overall for his career in the playoffs...and it's on him that they lost? At times it was on Dirk, but you are penalizing Dirk for over-achieving in the regular season with these rosters...doesn't make sense.

[kentatm]

We can throw out any excuses if you like though...and say it was just a horrible series for Dirk and the Mavs.

08? I'm confused...what about the 08 team makes you think it was any good? With Dirk on the court we were plus 8.6...without him were were minus 3.2.

We only had Kidd for like 30 game iirc and Kidd and Terry were dreadful in the playoffs.

Dirk went for 27/12/4 59% TS in the playoffs...

You really need to rethink your position on 08.

'08 is also the year Avery's massively expanding ego led to about half the team to openly revolt against him by the end of the year.

Avery had bitched and bitched at the Mavs PGs never letting them flow with teh game. He was literally barking out the plays to run for every single possession turning the Mavs into oneof, if not the, slowest paced teams in the league. Then when they traded Harris for Kidd, Avery hailed the move b/c he could finally let his PG run the offense finish out games w/o having to be told what to do.

Except what did Avery do the very first time the Mavs were in a close game vs the Spurs? He pulled Kidd, the Mavs lost, and Avery as per usual shifted all the blame on the team.

They even signed Tyronn Lue late to have a vet backup and suddenly Avery f-ing decided to play JJ Barea in the playoffs after he had failed to see the court for the last month of the season.

By the end Josh Howard was in full on IDGAF about this asshole mode and had a huge birthday party in New Orleans in the middle of the series where about half the roster showed up and partied balls.

Looking back, that '08 team was screwed the moment Avery forced Del Harris off the team at the end of the 2007 season. (which he did to scapegoat Del for the 07 playoff loss to a team EVERYONE but Avery knew was a match up nightmare for Dallas and b/c he didn't like that the players trusted Del more and tended to go to him with team issues.)

Avery was even trying to ban Dirk's personal coach Holger from helping him out of slumps like he has always done. That's how far he was taking his power trip.

[moaz]

........

:mad: you kentam for reminding me of Avery. I tried to delete this Mavs era of my memory.

[BlackVVaves]

I don't think he's overrated. Only by some, not all, Mavs homers. Those of the milesberg variety.

Dirk is a Top 20 great, who didn't have the same impact as Duncan, or win as much as Kobe.

He has a ring, something Barkley and Malone can't boast, but I'd still take Malone over him, though I honestly can't say that unequivocally. It's up for discussion, at the very least, depending on how much you attribute Malone's success to Stockton, and how heavily you weigh Dirk's defensive deficiencies, which were glaring despite the brigade's argument that "he's not as bad as portrayed" (that may be true, but he was still an average to below average defender throughout his career, and certainly not on par with the lower half of the top 10 GOATs in their primes (Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, Wilt). And then, you have to compare him to KG, and I definitely believe KG > Dirk.

So idk. I think he's rated about right. At least, by most knowledgeable basketball minds.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Give Dirks teams from 01-09 to KG and they make the WCF or finals every year

[DMAVS41]

'08 is also the year Avery's massively expanding ego led to about half the team to openly revolt against him by the end of the year.

Avery had bitched and bitched at the Mavs PGs never letting them flow with teh game. He was literally barking out the plays to run for every single possession turning the Mavs into oneof, if not the, slowest paced teams in the league. Then when they traded Harris for Kidd, Avery hailed the move b/c he could finally let his PG run the offense finish out games w/o having to be told what to do.

Except what did Avery do the very first time the Mavs were in a close game vs the Spurs? He pulled Kidd, the Mavs lost, and Avery as per usual shifted all the blame on the team.

They even signed Tyronn Lue late to have a vet backup and suddenly Avery f-ing decided to play JJ Barea in the playoffs after he had failed to see the court for the last month of the season.

By the end Josh Howard was in full on IDGAF about this asshole mode and had a huge birthday party in New Orleans in the middle of the series where about half the roster showed up and partied balls.

Looking back, that '08 team was screwed the moment Avery forced Del Harris off the team at the end of the 2007 season. (which he did to scapegoat Del for the 07 playoff loss to a team EVERYONE but Avery knew was a match up nightmare for Dallas and b/c he didn't like that the players trusted Del more and tended to go to him with team issues.)

Avery was even trying to ban Dirk's personal coach Holger from helping him out of slumps like he has always done. That's how far he was taking his power trip.


I know...****ing Avery man. If we had just had Carlisle or a coach of that caliber from 05 through 08...I'm convinced we would have won two titles.

[DMAVS41]

Give Dirks teams from 01-09 to KG and they make the WCF or finals every year

Definitely not 01 or 02. For sure in 03. Definitely not 04...Nash was hurt and Finley had declined a bit...

05? Maybe...definitely a team better built for KG than Dirk.
06? Doubtful...that team needed Dirk's offense way more than they would have needed what KG brought
07? Maybe...another team better built for KG
08? No chance in hell
09? No chance in hell

[Euroleague]

God.

Shut the **** up...

Make me.

[Euroleague]

already thought i had to explain but its you... the most hated guy on here? top 3?

so everybody knows that everybody is overrated for you that puts vassilis spanoulis to shame.
now you can't even call him the best european player let alone best player in the world. of course you underrate dirk as everybody relevant clearly thinks dirk is the best european player. no freakin argument you can make that will chance that fact.

you understand this? EVERY SINGLE PERSON THAT MATTERS.
haha suck on it.

Nope. Only NBA only fans think this.

People that actually followed European basketball understand that other players from Europe were better than Dirk.

It's stupid ignorant NBA only fans that keep creating these NBA only fans myth that can't grasp this.

Just one of hundreds of NBA myths.

[Euroleague]

How's he overrated. He's underrated if anything.

I've seen people label him soft, defensive liability, shitty rebounder, etc just because he's white.

He's not soft, he's not a liability and he's a good rebounder who always ups his rebounding numbers in the playoffs.

Maybe Garnett's a better defender, but give me Dirk over KG as the first option any day. Dirk led his team to 50+ wins for 11 straight seasons, has KG ever done that? Dirk led his team to a championship as the #1 option, where was KG before he had Ray and Pierce, and later Rondo?

Jesus i love KG but this dirk hate is ridiculous.

KG is overrated also. Not exactly a great argument there.

[Euroleague]

Nash has mentioned multiple times that Cuban not wanting to resign him led to him being more focused in the off season/getting better. :coleman:

Like he said, the magical NBA marketing myths of players suddenly getting leaps and bounds better in a few months due to "working on their game".........in Nash's case in his 30s...........

:rolleyes:

[dr.hee]

Nope. Only NBA only fans think this.

People that actually followed European basketball understand that other players from Europe were better than Dirk.

It's stupid ignorant NBA only fans that keep creating these NBA only fans myth that can't grasp this.

Just one of hundreds of NBA myths.

Who was better than Dirk? Maybe the bald, hairy back garbage time point guard who ran away from Houston because he couldn't do shit in the NBA?

[Euroleague]

Who was better than Dirk? Maybe the bald, hairy back garbage time point guard who ran away from Houston because he couldn't do shit in the NBA?

Shut up fake German.

[dr.hee]

Shut up fake German.

Hey, have some respect. I average only 2.7 ppg less in the NBA than VSpan. So I'm pretty good, right?

[Black Mamba's B]

Nah. Nash doe

[Jailblazers7]

Nope. Only NBA only fans think this.

People that actually followed European basketball understand that other players from Europe were better than Dirk.

It's stupid ignorant NBA only fans that keep creating these NBA only fans myth that can't grasp this.

Just one of hundreds of NBA myths.

Who do you consider better? Dirk clearly has a great argument for best Euro player ever at the absolute worst.

[Euroleague]

Who do you consider better? Dirk clearly has a great argument for best Euro player ever at the absolute worst.

European players I consider better than Dirk:

Nikos Galis
Drazen Petrovic
Drazen Dalipagic

I can't really say for guys like Corbalan, Emiliano Rodriguez, Sergey Belov, Dino Meneghin, Kresimir Cosic, Radivoj Korac and guys like that because that was before I saw them play at all in the time.

But I have seen a lot of Cosic games on tape, and so it's hard to put it in perspective in the era now to then. But his skill for a big man was INCREDIBLE. Much better than Sabonis. But it's before my time so I don't really know how to judge it.

Debatable is Navarro, Jasikevicius and Pau. Dirk isn't clearly better than them and it's the same era. I probably put Dirk above Jasikevicius though because Jasikevicius was horrible at defense, even though he was incredible at play creation, something Dirk hardly did at all.

But Dirk compared to Navarro and Pau, I don't think there is honestly any legit argument at all to say he's actually been better than they were. It's just NBA only fans and NBA hype and gimmick marketing. The false, FALSE and UNTRUE belief that NBA play only counts and matters and is somehow a billion gagillion times more important and higher level than everything else.

It's total complete bullshit and untrue and even the players themselves admit that off the record.

For the players in a younger generation then I guess the obvious comparisons come to Spanoulis and Parker. But their careers are far from over, while Dirk (even though he seems still playing well) is at the twilight of his career, as are all those other players. So it's not even a point to bring them up yet, because they have several years of their primes left and it's not worth it to even speculate yet.

So, of the players I saw,

Nikos Galis
Drazen Petrovic
Drazen Dalipagic

and from the tape I saw of Cosic, he was absolutely unbelievable, but it's probably not fair to include him, just because I don't really have a context of that.

And, I am saying, Dirk is really no better than Pau and Navarro from his own era for me.

So yeah, clearly most overrated player on ISH by far and away, because he's universally hailed as the "best European player ever" here, and you are not allowed to even question that.

And like I am saying, this is not even taking into account players like Belov, from an earlier era, that actually most of the basketball historians and experts from Europe say was the BEST European player ever. I just can't really comment if he was better than Dirk or not because the only game I saw him play was the 1972 Olympics gold medal game.


And this post should also further drive the point home about how I said Sabonis is the 2nd most overrated player on ISH. Because of all the "he was the best European player ever" and "he was the best player they ever had in Europe" and all those bullshit posts that reign supreme here..........

No, he was not. He was more like the Ralph Sampson of Europe. The guy everyone wondered about "if he did not have those injuries". The fact is that shit gets old after awhile. It's just more of this bullshit NBA nonsense hype marketing gimmicks and myths and legends.

[97 bulls]

Like...seriously...do you actually think Dirk has had comparable help?
Yes. I think that Dirks teams have routinely been top three as far as talent year in and out.


You also ignore that we actually have had shit centers for the most part. In fact, we didn't even play centers early on. Lafrentz...are you serious? He's a fine player, but he's redundant with Dirk. Diop/Damp? Not terrible, but hardly good.*
Diop was a joke. But for the most part, the Mavs have always had solid centers. Especially for we saw in the 00s.




So not only did Dirk go pretty much entire career (again, outside of 03) without having the all-nba 2nd guy almost always needed...he also was missing a key part of what you would want around him at center.*
We disagree. Having Nash and Finley, for roughly five years. Along with a deep bench. Most greats get that kind of help for a couple. Then Jason Terry and Josh Howard. And again add a considerable amount of depth off the bench. And while that may not be on the level of Shaq and Kobe, Duncan/Ginobli/Parker, Garnett/Allen/Pierce, Bryant/Gasol/Odom, Wade/James/Bosh true, 1-12? They're on the same level. But what separates the Mavs from the other teams of their era and Dirk, is that aside from the Celtics, the other teams have multiple championships. And those teams as they were constructed, didn't have that much time together. Even you feel that the Mavs 2011 run was a fluke.

As far as those "stinkers", I believed they should've beaten the Lakers in 2010 once they aquired Chandler in that mid season trade. 07? 06? And 03. Thats four years.

[SATAN]

It's Jimmy Butler.