Why did people think Grant Hill and Penny Hardaway were so great

[rlsmooth775]

They were good players but saying these guys were Jordan Lebron magic like before injury is just false.

[theoneneo]

They were good players but saying these guys were Jordan Lebron magic like before injury is just false.

:lol I see what you did there, tried to sneak Lebron in with the Icons, slow down kid.

[moe94]

:lol I see what you did there, tried to sneak Lebron in with the Icons, slow down kid.

:biggums:

[Warfan]

:lol I see what you did there, tried to sneak Lebron in with the Icons, slow down kid.

:facepalm

[DonDadda59]

Grant was a 20/10/7 player who was solid defensively in his second season... as a SF. By age 38 after being ravaged by injury most of his career, he was able to put up 13/4/3 playing for the Suns and their top notch miracle worker medical staff. For a guy who dealt with the issues he did, you could make a strong argument that he had great longevity. His career #s are comparable to Scottie Pippen. Now imagine if he had stayed healthy his whole career. I can easily imagine him putting up 27/8/7 (48-50%) in his prime, while playing his usual solid D AKA just a rung below Bron.

Penny was a rare talent who could play PG while being a 6'8" forward ala Magic. That's where the comparison comes from, same as Bron. Not that he was on Magic's level, just similar in that regard. In just his second year he put up 21/4/7 (51% FG) while helping a young Shaq lead the Magic to the Championship.

Fans were robbed of seeing some very special, potentially ATG players. They were struck down well before their potential primes, we only really saw them still learning the game and in Grant's case, as a veteran who was still a solid contributor.

[Straight_Ballin]

:lol I see what you did there, tried to sneak Lebron in with the Icons, slow down kid.

lol kid got busted

[CelticBaller]

These guys were stars by their second season

[StrongLurk]

Grant was a 20/10/7 player who was solid defensively in his second season... as a SF. By age 38 after being ravaged by injury most of his career, he was able to put up 13/4/3 playing for the Suns and their top notch miracle worker medical staff. For a guy who dealt with the issues he did, you could make a strong argument that he had great longevity. His career #s are comparable to Scottie Pippen. Now imagine if he had stayed healthy his whole career. I can easily imagine him putting up 27/8/7 (48-50%) in his prime, while playing his usual solid D AKA just a rung below Bron.

Penny was a rare talent who could play PG while being a 6'8" forward ala Magic. That's where the comparison comes from, same as Bron. Not that he was on Magic's level, just similar in that regard. In just his second year he put up 21/4/7 (51% FG) while helping a young Shaq lead the Magic to the Championship.

Fans were robbed of seeing some very special, potentially ATG players. They were struck down well before their potential primes, we only really saw them still learning the game and in Grant's case, as a veteran who was still a solid contributor.

The overrating is strong in this one.

[ABfor3]

The overrating is strong in this one.
Where does he overrate them? He's speaking the truth

[DonDadda59]

The overrating is strong in this one.

Point out specifically where I overrate either player. I'll wait.

[sundizz]

Real talk - current Steph Curry is better than both these player. I can't even imagine the destruction a team with Shaq + Curry would be + those other Orlando shooters. They'd run amok.

[Smook A.]

Real talk - current Steph Curry is better than both these player. I can't even imagine the destruction a team with Shaq + Curry would be + those other Orlando shooters. They'd run amok.
You're on crack cocaine if you think current Steph is better than prime Grant Hill

[miles berg]

Grant Hill was as good as they hype. Absolutely amazing player.

[wakencdukest]

They were good players but saying these guys were Jordan Lebron magic like before injury is just false.




Did you ever actually see them play? They were both pretty much on track to be career all stars, maybe not quite the level of Jordan, LeBron, or Magic, but still they would have been superstars.

[Black and White]

Real talk - current Steph Curry is better than both these player. I can't even imagine the destruction a team with Shaq + Curry would be + those other Orlando shooters. They'd run amok.

Have you watched them play before injury????

[ZMonkey11]

Real talk - current Steph Curry is better than both these player. I can't even imagine the destruction a team with Shaq + Curry would be + those other Orlando shooters. They'd run amok.

:chuckle:

[20Four]

Oh man...its sad when people couldn't see prime grant in detroit...that niqqa was dunking on everybody....

[JohnFreeman]

Because they were..

[sdot_thadon]

Seems like quite a few here weren't old enough to watch those two play. They aren't being overrated in any way whatsoever. The only way you can realistically knock them down is to say they were an unfulfilled promise of sorts. Penny was on the verge of super stardom before his injury. Grant Hill WAS a superstar before his injury and very well could have been the 1st Lebron had his body held up. I felt like Grant was being groomed to become the face of the Nba eventually. We definitely were robbed of 2 all time great careers that would have helped bridge the eras after Mj retired.

[IncarceratedBob]

Grant didn't have the work ethic and he was an uncle tom so none of the black players liked him and often tried to injure him patrick beverly style

[poido123]

Penny and Hill in their prime would form the top 5 players in today's league.

Penny had potential to be as great as Lebron is.

[20Four]

Penny and Hill in their prime would form the top 5 players in today's league.

Penny had potential to be as great as Lebron is.
^ this

Remember most people here are not old enough to watch those players

I call those foo's youtube watchers

[IncarceratedBob]

Penny had potential to be as great as Lebron is.
straight up disrespecting king james

[zoom17]

straight up disrespecting king james

he said potential how is that disrespectful?

[sdot_thadon]

straight up disrespecting king james
Nah buddy, Penny was dynamic in the same ways Lebron is. I don't think he would have reached that level per se, but it's definitely not a stretch. These guys were ballers.

[edrick]

Nothing overrated about Grant Hill or Penny. Did you even watch either play?

[JohnFreeman]

I think LeBron said he modeled some of his game after Penny

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GZ4Qb7koYY

[IncarceratedBob]

he said potential how is that disrespectful?
So Penny had GOAT potential? He's talking out of his ass.

[sdot_thadon]

So Penny had GOAT potential? He's talking out of his ass.
Offensively Penny had some of the same tools Lebron has. He was a great passer whilst being a legitimate scoring threat. Had a post game way earlier in his career than Lebron did and was pretty good scoring in isolation as well. Kobe's role next to Shaq was derived from Penny's. That said he was still developing when his injury happened but he was damn good. The only thing Lebron clearly has over him is a much greater defensive presence.

[poido123]

So Penny had GOAT potential? He's talking out of his ass.

The same way I see Lebron a little overrated, is the same way you see Penny a little overrated.

It's really a matter of bias here. If you really like Lebron, you won't accept that any player is better than him or on his level.

Put Penny on this Heat team and I see the same success, maybe even another title in 2011.

[Fawker]

Penny and Tmac's movements were so gracefull. They fall in the same shortcomings. I think TMac was better then Penny tho.

[rlsmooth775]

The same way I see Lebron a little overrated, is the same way you see Penny a little overrated.

It's really a matter of bias here. If you really like Lebron, you won't accept that any player is better than him or on his level.

Put Penny on this Heat team and I see the same success, maybe even another title in 2011.

Penny isn't even better than second season Lebron

[LoveIsMyMessage]

Pistons GHill was a superstar before the ankle injury and the trade to the Orlando Magic. Elite first step, cross, and explosion off the dribble. A complete player. And this was in the 90s' with quality players in their prime. Jordan, Pippen, Kemp, Payton, Alonzo, Ewing, Hardaway, Shaq, Etc. If you saw him play you know he was not overrated. Daily tripple doubles(Was ahead of Kidd at the time in totals Tdubs), sportcenter top 10s'daily, Fila and Sprite commercials were famous. This site is full of 12 year olds.

[poido123]

Penny isn't even better than second season Lebron

Penny never actually reached his prime, this is a speculative thread. As such, we can only assume things...

I would guess that Penny would perform better than Lebron, but not quite have the same talent and overall athleticism of Lebron(including his size).

What I'm saying is, Penny would have the better career, whereas Lebron would have the edge in talent? But not by much, and it's mainly defensively.

[sportjames23]

:lol I see what you did there, tried to sneak Lebron in with the Icons, slow down kid.

Word. OP thinks he's slick. :oldlol:

[sportjames23]

Real talk - current Steph Curry is better than both these player. I can't even imagine the destruction a team with Shaq + Curry would be + those other Orlando shooters. They'd run amok.


:facepalm

[moe94]

Penny never actually reached his prime, this is a speculative thread. As such, we can only assume things...

I would guess that Penny would perform better than Lebron, but not quite have the same talent and overall athleticism of Lebron(including his size).

What I'm saying is, Penny would have the better career, whereas Lebron would have the edge in talent? But not by much, and it's mainly defensively.

Exactly how good do you think Penny could have become? The best he showed was nowhere near LeBron.

[poido123]

Exactly how good do you think Penny could have become? The best he showed was nowhere near LeBron.

A top 10-12 player all time.

But that's around where I'd put Lebron WITHOUT his current superteam playing in a weak Eastern conference.''

If Lebron had of been stuck with the Cavs teams and maybe squeaked out a title? He would not be anywhere near the discussion of top 5 alltime.

I think playing for Miami has also made it easier for him to accumulate MVP's too.


The nowhere near Lebron comment was a little off target.

[sportjames23]

Exactly how good do you think Penny could have become? The best he showed was nowhere near LeBron.


Penny was the truth, man. Before his injuries, I thought he could easily become the next great wing. Penny could score easier than Lebron, IMO, and probably assist better, too. Lebron is a better rebounder than Penny was doe.

[moe94]

A top 10-12 player all time.

But that's around where I'd put Lebron WITHOUT his current superteam playing in a weak Eastern conference.''

If Lebron had of been stuck with the Cavs teams and maybe squeaked out a title? He would not be anywhere near the discussion of top 5 alltime.

I think playing for Miami has also made it easier for him to accumulate MVP's too.


The nowhere near Lebron comment was a little off target.
How? He already won 2 in Cleveland and if he kept dragging teams without great players to great regular seasons with his stats, he'd keep racking them up. Who'd stop him?

The nowhere comment isn't off because LeBron was a better player than Penny at the same ages and it was hardly close, was it? I'm not talking career or legacy or any of that when I asked you because I simply think LeBron was a better individual talent than Penny.

[poido123]

How? He already won 2 in Cleveland and if he kept dragging teams without great players to great regular seasons with his stats, he'd keep racking them up. Who'd stop him?

The nowhere comment isn't off because LeBron was a better player than Penny at the same ages and it was hardly close, was it? I'm not talking career or legacy or any of that when I asked you because I simply think LeBron was a better individual talent than Penny.


I'd argue one of those MVP's should be Chris Paul's, but that's another matter.

There are plenty of talented players out there that don't perform. Means jack. I think Penny would of done more with his talents, than Lebron has. Give Pennjy the same team as Lebron in his prime, and you would likely see the Heat winning 2011 as well.

There is a slight edge to Lebron on talent(mainly due to his size and strength combination), but only slightly because Lebron is a much better defender.

As to who's stopping him? I don't know. A team with a stronger record than Cav's? Possibly Durant last year and this year...

We are speculating what wins Cav's would have over the last 3 years, they could be terrible and only win 40 odd.

[Smoke117]

Grant Hill was never as good as Scottie Pippen, he was just basically allowed to do whatever he wanted under Doug Collins and the other actors he played for because the Pistons didn't have shit. It's no surprise that he left in 2000...the Pistons weren't building or going nowhere. Nobody foresaw that the injury during that season would basically ail him the rest of his career...but people seem to forget that has he scored more his other stats and focus dropped. His career best 25ppg was accompanied by his other stats and attributes fallling.

[bdreason]

Nobody compares them to MJ and Magic. Penny and Grant would have fallen in that 2nd tier, with guys like Kobe and LeBron.

[Amar'e_Juwanna]

Bill Walton would have been an all time top 5 C.

[secund2nun]

Penny and Hill in their prime would form the top 5 players in today's league.

Penny had potential to be as great as Lebron is.

Not even close. Penny is one of the most overrated players. Penny suffered his first major injury in 1997 at the age of 26 early in the season. His play was poor that season up until the injury and the season before he was healthy at age 25 and averaged 20-6-5 and that's with prime Shaq taking up double teas.

Lebron was average 30-9-7 at the age of 25...are you really gonna compare 20-6-5 by Penny at age 25 vs Lebron's 30-9-7 at age 25?

Penny's peak season was in 95 at age 24 when he went 22-7-4....Lebron at age 24 went 28-8-7.

Penny is an example of nostalgia at it's finest...the funny part is that I was around to see Penny so I actually see the classic nostaligia overrating form from scratch right before my eyes. 20 years from now Penny will have 4.1 speed, 7'6 height and was still growing, 55 inch vertical, and carried the Magic to the 95 finals :oldlol:

[D.J.]

Grant Hill was very comparable to Scottie Pippen. Not as good defensively(though certainly no slouch either), but better overall offensive game. He handled the ball very well, rebounded very well for his position, had a nice mid-range J, very good passer, and was also efficient. Grant's game was very smooth. He was one of those guys who quietly dominated. If you watched him, you would never guess that he averaged 20/10/7 in his sophomore campaign, or 21/9/7 the following year. Even when Dumars retired and he had to take on a bigger scoring role, he still averaged over 5 APG and maintained his overall efficiency.

Penny Hardaway and LeBron both share aspects of their games with Magic. Penny was a tall point with great length, very efficient scoring, could shoot 3s, and was a very good passer. I always felt he should have been a better rebounder. 6'7" guys playing on the perimeter should easily crash the boards and he only averaged 4-4.5 RPG. Penny also had 2 All-NBA 1st teams by his 3rd season at 25.

Why do people think they were great? Because they were. You have one guy who was a walking triple-double and could play positions 1-4, and another guy who shared many traits with Magic Johnson. They were never on par with Jordan/Olajuwon/Robinson, but they were a tier below. Great players who had injuries too early.

[Black Mamba's B]

I remember the old school sprite Grant Hill commercials.. good times. And the lil penny commercials. Both players were great, I think Penny especially could have been real special

[Soundwave]

Because both were great players prior to getting injured.

They both would average 23-25 ppg today in the NBA with fewer rim protectors and less hand checking allowed and fill up a stat sheet like crazy.

[Soundwave]

Real talk - current Steph Curry is better than both these player. I can't even imagine the destruction a team with Shaq + Curry would be + those other Orlando shooters. They'd run amok.

lol, Penny Hardaway or Grant Hill would both murder little 6'3 Steph Curry.

[ThePhantomCreep]

he said potential how is that disrespectful?
Any post that doesn't polish LeBron's knob is considered disrespectful by his groupie fanbase.

[20Four]

No offense to curry...but even Lil penny would have murdered him sarcasm :roll: ...penny was THAT good :D

But real talk though..penny was a BEAST

[ThePhantomCreep]

Grant Hill was never as good as Scottie Pippen, he was just basically allowed to do whatever he wanted under Doug Collins and the other actors he played for because the Pistons didn't have shit. It's no surprise that he left in 2000...the Pistons weren't building or going nowhere. Nobody foresaw that the injury during that season would basically ail him the rest of his career...but people seem to forget that has he scored more his other stats and focus dropped. His career best 25ppg was accompanied by his other stats and attributes fallling.
Which is why he made All-NBA 1st team by his 3rd season, ahead of Pippen. So what if Grant's teams were bad? Jordan's early teams were hot garbage too, I don't see how that diminishes what he accomplished individually.

2000 Hill > any version of Scottie

[ILLsmak]

Real talk - current Steph Curry is better than both these player. I can't even imagine the destruction a team with Shaq + Curry would be + those other Orlando shooters. They'd run amok.

lululululul

Nah.

-Smak

[D.J.]

Which is why he made All-NBA 1st team by his 3rd season, ahead of Pippen. So what if Grant's teams were bad? Jordan's early teams were hot garbage too, I don't see how that diminishes what he accomplished individually.

2000 Hill > any version of Scottie


Hardaway was All-NBA 1st team in his 2nd and 3rd seasons. So what?


Grant in 2000 averaged 26/7/5. Scottie had seasons of 21/8/7/2/1, 22/9/6/3, 21/8/5/3/1, 20/7/6/2. Similar rebounding, similar assists, and far better defensively.

[ThePhantomCreep]

Hardaway was All-NBA 1st team in his 2nd and 3rd seasons. So what?


Grant in 2000 averaged 26/7/5. Scottie had seasons of 21/8/7/2/1, 22/9/6/3, 21/8/5/3/1, 20/7/6/2. Similar rebounding, similar assists, and far better defensively.

Your Point? Hill and Pippen played the same position and Hill was already considered better by 1997. That was mine. Hill finished 3rd in the MVP vote that year.

Hill was a very good defender himself, and was pretty much an elite scorer (something Scottie never was) by 27. Then the injuries hit.

[D.J.]

Your Point? Hill and Pippen played the same position and Hill was already considered better by 1997. That was mine. Hill finished 3rd in the MVP vote that year.

Hill was a very good defender himself, and was pretty much an elite scorer (something Scottie never was) by 27. Then the injuries hit.


Um, no. You said:



2000 Hill > any version of Scottie


And that, my friend, could not be any more false.

[ThePhantomCreep]

Um, no. You said:





And that, my friend, could not be any more false.

That's your opinion. Hill averaged nearly 4 ppg more than Pip's best season, with a TS% that trumps Pip's best too. That isn't peanuts. He did this while being the focal point of the opposing team's game plan. He was better.

[Big#50]

Penny's post game is probably the greatest for a wing. And he could go left as well as he did right.

[D.J.]

That's your opinion. Hill averaged nearly 4 ppg more than Pip's best season, with a TS% that trumps Pip's best too. That isn't peanuts. He did this while being the focal point of the opposing team's game plan. He was better.


TS% is not reliable. Pippen's is lower because he shot under 70% from the line for his career at that point.


-Grant's eFG% in 2000 was 50.1. Scottie was over that regularly.

-Grant's offensive rating was 111 in 2000. Scottie topped that more than once during his prime.

-Grant's defensive rating was 105 in 2000. Outside of 1989 and 1990 Scottie's was never higher than 104 and he was under 100 twice in his prime.

-Scottie was All-NBA 1st team from '94-'96. Grant only did it once('97)

-Scottie has numerous All-Defensive 1st teams. Grant never even sniffed a second team.


Grant was not better than Scottie. Averaging 4-5 more points on a higher TS% does not automatically make one better. :facepalm

[sdot_thadon]

I don't think either guy was overrated in how they are remembered because both were stars, Hill a superstar even. Now saying Penny would have ended up better than Lebron is pushing it a bit though. They both would likely end up in the t-mac tier, great players but never the best in the league.

About Scottie and Hill, Grant was the 1st option on his team. We all know what Pippen was. Hill was an elite scorer, Scottie never was. Pippen did have a big edge on defense but Hill was no slouch there either.

[QuebecBaller]

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-4O2KsGkx0GM/UzBONQRzJhI/AAAAAAAAnwQ/VyAXq4UjyoA/w377-h283-no/blank.jpg

[RIP CITY]

Two of the greatest players to ever lace em up. Both guys had potential left and we already great players before their injuries. Grant Hill was a legitimate superstar, Penny was as close as you can come to being a superstar without actually being able to sustain it because of the injury.

Grant Hill could literally do anything on the basketball court at the time except shoot 3's, which by the end of his career he became very proficient at. Had he never gotten injured I believe he would be viewed as the 3rd best SF of All-Time behind Bird/LeBron. He was unguardable one on one, had the quickest first step I've ever seen for a non-guard, maybe even any player period. He could handle the ball and pass better than almost any PG in the League, was a very good rebounder and he was a great defensive player. One of the most skilled players ever, plus elite athleticism. Grant Hill would be the 3rd best player in the NBA today and Penny would be Top 10 easily, arguably Top 5.

[ImKobe]

You could see their potential, they were a season or two away from hitting their prime before injuries happened. Grant, at 27, put up 26 7 5 for an entire season before getting injured, those are Kobe numers, and on slightly better efficiency I might add. Imagine him not injuring himself & continuing that kind of play for at least 3-4 seasons, that would have added so much onto his career.

Grant definitely had all-time great talent, much like Lebron, only not as big.

The guy put up 20 10 & 7 for an entire season at 23 years old on a 46 win team, give him a proper coach & a proper supporting cast & he would have contended for years. He was such a great offensive player.

Penny went down at what, 25 years old? in his 3rd or 4th season? he never really reached near his peak, at least Grant had many good years behind him before injuring himself, Penny was putting up 21 4 7 from his 2nd to his 4th year before the injury & put up a strong series twice against MJ & Scottie.

First series he passed more, averaging 19 4 & 8, winning the series, 2nd series he put up 26 4 4 on 47% shooting against the 72-10 Bulls, he was 23 & 24 years old in those series.

Both had top 20 all-time potential as players, just got injured during or right before their primes.

[fandarko]

You're on crack cocaine if you think current Steph is better than prime Grant Hill

I'm a big fan of Steph's, but he isn't better than prime Penny or Hill. Actually, both were better than him, especially Hill. Not by a great margin, but prime Hill was in Durant category. His prime didn't last long though. Penny was at Rose's level, also prime cut short.

[Collie]

Grant was the real deal, but I do feel that Penny gets a bit overrated because of his injuries and because he was a tall PG. In reality, Penny was a better scorer than he was a playmaker, and even then, there was no indication that he was gonna be a very high level scorer. I'd probably peg his peak at around what he put up after the year Shaq left (and before he got injured). Somewhere around 26/5/6.

[dreamwarrior]

Penny dominated Jordan anytime they were matched up against each other. He had every tool you'd want in your superstar. I never appreciated Grant Hill but calling him just a notch below Lebron is accurate. They both took on the same roles on their teams.

[sportjames23]

Penny dominated Jordan anytime they were matched up against each other. He had every tool you'd want in your superstar. I never appreciated Grant Hill but calling him just a notch below Lebron is accurate. They both took on the same roles on their teams.


That there tells me you didn't watch shit back then.

[plowking]

That there tells me you didn't watch shit back then.

His comment may be absurd, but so was yours when you claimed Jordan had never been outplayed in a playoff series. :oldlol:

[D.J.]

About Scottie and Hill, Grant was the 1st option on his team.


So was Scottie in 1993-94. 22/9/6/3/1, All-NBA 1st team, All-Defensive 1st team, and 3rd in MVP voting. And after Horace Grant, they had Armstrong, Cartwright, rookie Kukoc, Longley, Scott Williams, and their starting 2 was a career CBA journeyman who hadn't played an NBA game in 3 years.


1994-95 in 63 games before MJ came back, Pippen averaged 22/8/5/3/1 while on his way to All-NBA 1st team, All-Defensive 1st team, and 7th in MVP voting.


Scottie as a 1st option was every bit as good as Grant.

[bizil]

Penny at PG or SG was on his way to being an all time great at either spot. Part of me thinks that he may have ended up at SG. But at PG, he was revolutionizing that position BIG TIME! U never saw a PG with Penny's size, athletic ability and scoring skillset to go with that great passing. Hill at SF was like a mix of Dr. J and Scottie Pippen in one. That REDEFINED the SF spot at that time. The stuff Lebron is doing is really taking what Hill was about to do and taking it to unreal heights. Hill and Penny were on their way to being top 10 GOAT kind of talent at their respective positions.

ONLY the guys like MJ, Bird, Kobe, Magic, Big O, and Lebron would have been better in my book perimeter wise. Those six had a blend of size, skillset, versatility, and dominance on the perimeter that make them standout from other perimeter players. Hill, Penny, and T Mac for that matter had all the skills to be on that level with those guys. It just would have came down to resume and things of that nature. But Penny, Hill, and T-Mac are some of the MINUTE few who could have reached that level if it wasn't for injuries.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Because they played in the 90s :oldlol: :oldlol:

Bunch of nostalgia obsessed clowns.

[bizil]

So was Scottie in 1993-94. 22/9/6/3/1, All-NBA 1st team, All-Defensive 1st team, and 3rd in MVP voting. And after Horace Grant, they had Armstrong, Cartwright, rookie Kukoc, Longley, Scott Williams, and their starting 2 was a career CBA journeyman who hadn't played an NBA game in 3 years.


1994-95 in 63 games before MJ came back, Pippen averaged 22/8/5/3/1 while on his way to All-NBA 1st team, All-Defensive 1st team, and 7th in MVP voting.


Scottie as a 1st option was every bit as good as Grant.

I a firm believer that Pippen could be the best player on a title team. But in terms of being a true alpha dog kind of scorer, I think Hill was better than Pippen. It's just Hill didn't get to prove it as long as Pippen did. Hill staring to ring up 25 points a night right when he was about to really hit his best years in the L. By the eye test, it seemed Hill was better at taking the game by the throat scoring than Pippen. But both were really pass first kind of players anyway. Just like a point forward in Lebron. But I think Hill was closer to Bron's level in terms of taking over scoring than Pippen was.

[D.J.]

I a firm believer that Pippen could be the best player on a title team. But in terms of being a true alpha dog kind of scorer, I think Hill was better than Pippen. It's just Hill didn't get to prove it as long as Pippen did. Hill staring to ring up 25 points a night right when he was about to really hit his best years in the L. By the eye test, it seemed Hill was better at taking the game by the throat scoring than Pippen. But both were really pass first kind of players anyway. Just like a point forward in Lebron. But I think Hill was closer to Bron's level in terms of taking over scoring than Pippen was.


In terms of scoring, Hill was better. An extra 4 points or so on similar percentages and more versatile. The only thing Grant really couldn't do was hit threes. His mid-range J was silky smooth. But you really can't knock Scottie. He was averaging 20-21 PPG on similar shooting percentages. Grant does have the scoring advantage, but it's not night and day.

Factoring in scoring, Grant probably is closer to LeBron than Pippen. But neither of them had the defense Pippen had. While Grant's teams were nothing to write home about, they weren't as bad as Pippen's in '94 and '95. He still had Dumars, Terry Mills, and a respectable Allan Houston as a rookie. Then Houston became a 20 PPG scorer and they added Otis Thorpe, then they were a playoff team.

[Clyde]

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-4O2KsGkx0GM/UzBONQRzJhI/AAAAAAAAnwQ/VyAXq4UjyoA/w377-h283-no/blank.jpg

I love this reply, I expect to see it in most threads.....as this place in overrun by children

:oldlol:

[smoovegittar]

Amazing what a few years away will do. Both these players were nothing short of spectacular. I s'pose in another 15 years they won't even be remembered.

[DMAVS41]

Grant Hill was as good as they hype. Absolutely amazing player.

This. Grant Hill could have gone down as one of the best ever. I don't think Penny had that ability.

I mean...shit...the guy was like a 22/8/6 player over his first 6 years while playing high level defense.

He was a 26/7/5 57% TS player the year before he got hurt. He definitely could have had like a great 12 to 14 year run as a great player with a peak of something around 28/7/5 59% TS or something...

Put in the right situation with a great team and no injuries...he could easily have been knocking on the top 10 to 15 all time

[Smoke117]

Grant was a 20/10/7 player who was solid defensively in his second season... as a SF. By age 38 after being ravaged by injury most of his career, he was able to put up 13/4/3 playing for the Suns and their top notch miracle worker medical staff. For a guy who dealt with the issues he did, you could make a strong argument that he had great longevity. His career #s are comparable to Scottie Pippen. Now imagine if he had stayed healthy his whole career. I can easily imagine him putting up 27/8/7 (48-50%) in his prime, while playing his usual solid D AKA just a rung below Bron.

Penny was a rare talent who could play PG while being a 6'8" forward ala Magic. That's where the comparison comes from, same as Bron. Not that he was on Magic's level, just similar in that regard. In just his second year he put up 21/4/7 (51% FG) while helping a young Shaq lead the Magic to the Championship.

Fans were robbed of seeing some very special, potentially ATG players. They were struck down well before their potential primes, we only really saw them still learning the game and in Grant's case, as a veteran who was still a solid contributor.

You do realize that in 2000 when he scored his career high 25ppg that his rebounds, assist, and defense all took a hit, right? Grant Hill was never going to average 27/8/7.

[Bob Dole]

both slightly overrated, especially penny.

Neither had top 10 or 15 potential. More like top 30.

Great players though, and Grant at his best was better than pippen at his best.

[TheReal Kendall]

We need a new rule on ISH.

If you didn't see said player play you shouldn't critique or make a thread about that player. Watching highlights doesn't count.

[rlsmooth775]

These guys aren't even better than wade people say they would be top 10 level guys if healthy are you kidding

[DMAVS41]

You do realize that in 2000 when he scored his career high 25ppg that his rebounds, assist, and defense all took a hit, right? Grant Hill was never going to average 27/8/7.

Why do you say that?

He averaged 26/7/5 and I don't think he had actually peaked yet. I mean...i doubt he ever gets to a full 7 assists a game, but at that point it's just pointless to even worry about it.

His peak would have been some semblance of 27/7/6 on high overall efficiency....

[DMAVS41]

These guys aren't even better than wade people say they would be top 10 level guys if healthy are you kidding

If Wade didn't have his health concerns...he'd already be a top 10 player of all time because he probably wins in 05 and 06...and his numbers the last few years would be much better.

Shit...you could argue that if he didn't get hurt in the 11 finals briefly they might have won there as well.

A healthy career for Wade to date would already put him top 12 all time for sure.

He'd have 1 more title and 1 more finals MVP for sure...might have a MVP as well.

I agree Wade was better than either of them, but you act like it's Wade's level of play holding him back. It isn't...it's his lack of longevity and a few unlucky injuries in his career...

[Smoke117]

Why do you say that?

He averaged 26/7/5 and I don't think he had actually peaked yet. I mean...i doubt he ever gets to a full 7 assists a game, but at that point it's just pointless to even worry about it.

His peak would have been some semblance of 27/7/6 on high overall efficiency....

Grant Hill was also allowed to do whatever he wanted though...especially under Doug Collins. For most of his career the offense was have Grant bring up the ball and try and create for himself or others. Also Grant Hill only won over 50 games one time during his Pistons tenure. It's hard to say what he would have done on a team that was a legit contender because he never had one.

[oarabbus]

We need a new rule on ISH.

If you didn't see said player play you shouldn't critique or make a thread about that player. Watching highlights doesn't count.

Then no one can talk about pre Magic/Bird era on this board, ever

[Anfernee]

Both of these guys were great, and had their primes stolen from them by the incompetent management of the Orlando Magic regarding their injuries. Grant Hill actually talked about this in an interview he hid with Jason Whitlock a few years ago.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/grant-hill-says-detroit-orlando-mismanaged-injuries-042711

[DMAVS41]

Grant Hill was also allowed to do whatever he wanted though...especially under Doug Collins. For most of his career the offense was have Grant bring up the ball and try and create for himself or others. Also Grant Hill only won over 50 games one time during his Pistons tenure. It's hard to say what he would have done on a team that was a legit contender because he never had one.

Of course it's hard, but it's not like he was a selfish player that hadn't proven anything.

It's more of a leap in my opinion to say Hill wouldn't have been great on a contender than it is to save he would be great.

[Smoke117]

Of course it's hard, but it's not like he was a selfish player that hadn't proven anything.

It's more of a leap in my opinion to say Hill wouldn't have been great on a contender than it is to save he would be great.

In hindsight i miss-wrote that. I was alluding to the fact that on a real contender there are going to be other good players and there is only one basketball. Like I said before, on the Pistons he was allowed to do whatever he wanted as there really wasn't any type of offensive system put in place. He probably would have averaged the same type of numbers his first season as Tracy Mcgrady took a backseat and was developing, but they probably would have went down after that.

I don't even think with Grant Hill the Magic were ever going to win the championship or be a real contender. Besides if were going to play the "what if he's healthy" game than you have to account for Zo...because the Heat were easily the best team in the east if he was playing. If you're a career loser (playoffs) nobody is going to care what stats you put up though.

[che guevara]

Penny and Hill, like all players who got injured in their prime, get overrated, often severely so. 15 years from now Derrick Rose is going to get the same treatment, with people stupidly saying he could've been as good as Lebron, Durant, Anthony Davis, or whoever the next top tier superstar is.


Why do you say that?

He averaged 26/7/5 and I don't think he had actually peaked yet. I mean...i doubt he ever gets to a full 7 assists a game, but at that point it's just pointless to even worry about it.

His peak would have been some semblance of 27/7/6 on high overall efficiency....
Grant was 27 when he got injured. If he improved at all afterwards, it was going to be incremental, especially considering he was a guy who relied enormously on his athleticism.

People severely overestimate the age at which players peak statistically - for stars, it's typically at 25-28, with rare exceptions - Hakeem because he didn't start playing basketball until he was in his late teens, and Bird because he entered the NBA really late at 23 and never relied on explosive run/jump athleticism in the first place. Otherwise it's in that 25-28 age range - Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Wilt, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Lebron, Oscar, Moses, Doc, KG, Barkley, Wade, etc. all peaked statistically from 25-28, sometimes even earlier. Their play may have peaked at later ages, but for non-statistical reasons.

2000 definitely wasn't his best season, either, 1997 was clearly better. His scoring was up, but everything else was down, and in the case of rebounding, passing and defense, significantly so. Hill wasn't a guy who was showing steady improvement every year, he peaked in '97, and every year after that was just not quite as good. We might not have seen the absolute best of Hill, but we clearly knew what he was.

And why is it never, ever mentioned that Hill was below average in the playoffs? This is a guy who played just 13 playoff games in his prime, and in those 13 games, averaged 21/7/6, but with 3 turnovers and a bad 51 TS%. He never cracked 30 points in a playoff game and never got out of the first round.

Penny's much more of a mystery - unlike Hill, he'd still been showing signs of improvement up until he got injured. The idea that he could've been as good as Lebron is completely laughable, though - he never had nearly the tools or athleticism Lebron had. Lebron's much stronger, more athletic, a far better finisher, a better shooter from '09 on (Penny shot just .315 on threes pre-injury, and that was with the pulled in 3 point line), a better passer with better court vision (Penny was great there though, no doubt), and obviously is better defensively with far better defensive tools and versatility than Penny had. Lebron at age 20 was probably better than Penny ever was, and was definitely better by a significant margin in his third season at 21 than Penny was in his third season at age 24. Penny also was a more polished player at 24 than Lebron was as a Cav, which limits how much better he could've gotten.

[LoveIsMyMessage]

Two of the greatest players to ever lace em up. Both guys had potential left and we already great players before their injuries. Grant Hill was a legitimate superstar, Penny was as close as you can come to being a superstar without actually being able to sustain it because of the injury.

Grant Hill could literally do anything on the basketball court at the time except shoot 3's, which by the end of his career he became very proficient at. Had he never gotten injured I believe he would be viewed as the 3rd best SF of All-Time behind Bird/LeBron. He was unguardable one on one, had the quickest first step I've ever seen for a non-guard, maybe even any player period. He could handle the ball and pass better than almost any PG in the League, was a very good rebounder and he was a great defensive player. One of the most skilled players ever, plus elite athleticism. Grant Hill would be the 3rd best player in the NBA today and Penny would be Top 10 easily, arguably Top 5.


Couldn't have said it better. I agree.

[TheMan]

Not even close. Penny is one of the most overrated players. Penny suffered his first major injury in 1997 at the age of 26 early in the season. His play was poor that season up until the injury and the season before he was healthy at age 25 and averaged 20-6-5 and that's with prime Shaq taking up double teas.

Lebron was average 30-9-7 at the age of 25...are you really gonna compare 20-6-5 by Penny at age 25 vs Lebron's 30-9-7 at age 25?

Penny's peak season was in 95 at age 24 when he went 22-7-4....Lebron at age 24 went 28-8-7.

Penny is an example of nostalgia at it's finest...the funny part is that I was around to see Penny so I actually see the classic nostaligia overrating form from scratch right before my eyes. 20 years from now Penny will have 4.1 speed, 7'6 height and was still growing, 55 inch vertical, and carried the Magic to the 95 finals :oldlol:
You have to realize Penny's scoring numbers will suffer because he had Shaq as #1 option. Put Shaq along with 25 year old LeBron and watch LeBron's scoring output drop:facepalm

They played different roles in their respective teams, you just can't compare their stats head to head.

BTW, Penny and Grant Hill easily had top 20 GOAT potential easily.

[che guevara]

You have to realize Penny's scoring numbers will suffer because he had Shaq as #1 option. Put Shaq along with 25 year old LeBron and watch LeBron's scoring output drop:facepalm

They played different roles in their respective teams, you just can't compare their stats head to head.

BTW, Penny and Grant Hill easily had top 20 GOAT potential easily.
Penny without Shaq would only be winning 45 games, his shooting percentages would drop, his assists would be down, and his turnovers would be up. It goes both ways.

[atljonesbro]

Only on ISH a peak 21/7/4 player is guarenteed top 20 all time :facepalm :facepalm

[houston]

Penny and Hill, like all players who got injured in their prime, get overrated, often severely so. 15 years from now Derrick Rose is going to get the same treatment, with people stupidly saying he could've been as good as Lebron, Durant, Anthony Davis, or whoever the next top tier superstar is.


Grant was 27 when he got injured. If he improved at all afterwards, it was going to be incremental, especially considering he was a guy who relied enormously on his athleticism.

People severely overestimate the age at which players peak statistically - for stars, it's typically at 25-28, with rare exceptions - Hakeem because he didn't start playing basketball until he was in his late teens, and Bird because he entered the NBA really late at 23 and never relied on explosive run/jump athleticism in the first place. Otherwise it's in that 25-28 age range - Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Wilt, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Lebron, Oscar, Moses, Doc, KG, Barkley, Wade, etc. all peaked statistically from 25-28, sometimes even earlier. Their play may have peaked at later ages, but for non-statistical reasons.

2000 definitely wasn't his best season, either, 1997 was clearly better. His scoring was up, but everything else was down, and in the case of rebounding, passing and defense, significantly so. Hill wasn't a guy who was showing steady improvement every year, he peaked in '97, and every year after that was just not quite as good. We might not have seen the absolute best of Hill, but we clearly knew what he was.

And why is it never, ever mentioned that Hill was below average in the playoffs? This is a guy who played just 13 playoff games in his prime, and in those 13 games, averaged 21/7/6, but with 3 turnovers and a bad 51 TS%. He never cracked 30 points in a playoff game and never got out of the first round.

Penny's much more of a mystery - unlike Hill, he'd still been showing signs of improvement up until he got injured. The idea that he could've been as good as Lebron is completely laughable, though - he never had nearly the tools or athleticism Lebron had. Lebron's much stronger, more athletic, a far better finisher, a better shooter from '09 on (Penny shot just .315 on threes pre-injury, and that was with the pulled in 3 point line), a better passer with better court vision (Penny was great there though, no doubt), and obviously is better defensively with far better defensive tools and versatility than Penny had. Lebron at age 20 was probably better than Penny ever was, and was definitely better by a significant margin in his third season at 21 than Penny was in his third season at age 24. Penny also was a more polished player at 24 than Lebron was as a Cav, which limits how much better he could've gotten.


exactly this man knows his basketball. Plus both Penny and Hill was soft players. Never really had first option talents. Alot of times injury prone players are soft players.

Funny you mention Hill playoff disappointments. The Pistons had enough to beat the Hawks in both those playoff series. Hill got outplayed by Lang of all people:roll:

[poido123]

Not even close. Penny is one of the most overrated players. Penny suffered his first major injury in 1997 at the age of 26 early in the season. His play was poor that season up until the injury and the season before he was healthy at age 25 and averaged 20-6-5 and that's with prime Shaq taking up double teas.

Lebron was average 30-9-7 at the age of 25...are you really gonna compare 20-6-5 by Penny at age 25 vs Lebron's 30-9-7 at age 25?

Penny's peak season was in 95 at age 24 when he went 22-7-4....Lebron at age 24 went 28-8-7.

Penny is an example of nostalgia at it's finest...the funny part is that I was around to see Penny so I actually see the classic nostaligia overrating form from scratch right before my eyes. 20 years from now Penny will have 4.1 speed, 7'6 height and was still growing, 55 inch vertical, and carried the Magic to the 95 finals :oldlol:


Lebron was one missed shot away from having one of the most unfulfilled and disappointing resumes in basketball(Pending further accomplishments).

When people look back on Lebron's career, they may even suggest that he was alot like Chamberlain in that he could of been that much greater and achieved so much more...

Now, I can't predict what he will do in the future, but if the past is anything to go by, he is capable of being dangerously passive and shying away from the big moments.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Hill reached his peak. He just couldn't sustain due to injury. Penny was cut down pre peak.

[sundizz]

Steph Curry (current season)
23.5 ppg, 8.5 apg, 4.4 rpg on 46%, 41%, 88%

Penny (95-96 best season)
21.7 ppg, 7.1 apg, 4.3 rpg on 51%, 31%, 77%

Grant Hill (96-97 Best Season)
21.4 ppg, 9 rpg, 7.3 apg on 50%, 31%, 71%

Honestly, people here are nostalgic like crazy. Curry is one of the most effective offensive weapons EVER. It's unbelievable how good he is at offense. He can score every which way, make every pass, and run an offense like few others.

If you put him alongside a true superstar player like a Shaq, or a Duncan, or KD etc....he's every bit as good (and i think better) than what a Penny or a Hill could of produced.

Again, I'll say Curry + Shaq > Hill + Shaq or Penny + Shaq. In sure there are situations I'd take Hill or Penny over Curry, but with a true dominant center or pf I would def take Curry.

[bdreason]

Statistical peak doesn't necessarily coincide with peak performance. People are so fukcing obsessed with stats these days they completely ignore context.

[Soundwave]

Steph Curry (current season)
23.5 ppg, 8.5 apg, 4.4 rpg on 46%, 41%, 88%

Penny (95-96 best season)
21.7 ppg, 7.1 apg, 4.3 rpg on 51%, 31%, 77%

Grant Hill (96-97 Best Season)
21.4 ppg, 9 rpg, 7.3 apg on 50%, 31%, 71%

Honestly, people here are nostalgic like crazy. Curry is one of the most effective offensive weapons EVER. It's unbelievable how good he is at offense. He can score every which way, make every pass, and run an offense like few others.

If you put him alongside a true superstar player like a Shaq, or a Duncan, or KD etc....he's every bit as good (and i think better) than what a Penny or a Hill could of produced.

Again, I'll say Curry + Shaq > Hill + Shaq or Penny + Shaq. In sure there are situations I'd take Hill or Penny over Curry, but with a true dominant center or pf I would def take Curry.

I wouldn't.

Curry is a good player, but being 6'3 he's simply not as versatile as Penny or GHill and both would match/exceed his scoring given the modern rules and lack of big men in the paint to guard the basket.

Both would abuse Curry in the post.

Penny gave Pippen problems, he was an extremely difficult to guard player, if anything I think a criticism of Penny's game was that he didn't look for his shot enough. He could've scored a lot more.

Shaq was too immature in his Orlando days, he couldn't deal with the fact that Penny had a more popular marketing campaign (the Lil' Penny thing which was everywhere) than he did.

[Pointguard]

Penny and Hill, like all players who got injured in their prime, get overrated, often severely so. 15 years from now Derrick Rose is going to get the same treatment, with people stupidly saying he could've been as good as Lebron, Durant, Anthony Davis, or whoever the next top tier superstar is.
Hey, hey. Derrick Rose improved a lot each year. If he got some range down he would have been pretty much unstoppable. Its not like you can name another MVP at his age either or a few guys with his leadership qualities at that age. Once Rose left it wasn't like other players were stepping up like that. Its hard to make that final leap into getting all the attention and being headstrong for 82 games. And don't act like you got some crystal ball or some basketball deities cluing you in on things not known.

Lets retell your story a different way for Hill...

The qualities in Hill were his leadership, all around play, smart play, team improvement and good defense. In a right system with good players he would have excelled - he was a lot like Pippen without the length. But in a good system he operates the same way a little better on offense, a little worse on defense but slightly better overall and easier to measure for not so deep fans. And Pippen was considered a top five player for many years. And his numbers aren't going to blow you out the water either.

Hill played in a defensive outfit that went from the worse team in the league 27th place to 7th in 1997 once they got their defense down in the second year centered around him and Thorpe. They win 18 more games as well (from 28 to 46). Goes to the playoffs and is 24/7/5

Year after that they also become an offensive team as well moving up from 24th place two years before to now 5th and improve to 56 wins with Hill the centerpiece on both offense and defense. Allan Houston helps on offense. Next year, Dumars is old, Houston leaves, Hunter shoots 38 percent Dumar only three points better. Bison Dele is the second option and defense falls on Hill pretty much alone. Stackhouse is the only decent teammate.

In the playoffs 1999. Hill goes 19/7/7 45 FG%. Not bad for a defensive mainstay. He has no teammate score more than 10per game and Hill leads the team in rebounds per game. They lose to Atlanta which has five players scoring more than 12per game and Mutombo clogging the lane and getting 13 plus rebounds per game. Its amazing that series went to the max. Hill has the highest PER in the playoffs that year at 29. Long was nowhere near playing Hill equally as suggested somewhere here.

Next year Hill is 26/7/5 shooting 49% but the team is in turmoil with different types of coaches. The team had three coaches within three years. With a great coach its a much different story.

[atljonesbro]

When players get injured people will always think best case scenario. Especially when the nostalgia kicks in. No one thinks realistically. It baffles me that people say someone who peaked at 21/7/4 was gonna be one of the greatest over just hecause he was big and got injured. He's not that good get over it. Good player but no where even close to an all time great.

[sundizz]

I wouldn't.

Curry is a good player, but being 6'3 he's simply not as versatile as Penny or GHill and both would match/exceed his scoring given the modern rules and lack of big men in the paint to guard the basket.

Both would abuse Curry in the post.

Penny gave Pippen problems, he was an extremely difficult to guard player, if anything I think a criticism of Penny's game was that he didn't look for his shot enough. He could've scored a lot more.

Shaq was too immature in his Orlando days, he couldn't deal with the fact that Penny had a more popular marketing campaign (the Lil' Penny thing which was everywhere) than he did.

Lol. No way Curry would be guarding Penny and especially would not be guarding Hill. He'd equally give them fits if they tried to guard him. He's way too fast laterally, and with the ball for them to stay on him for an entire game. He creates separation really really well.

And no they wouldn't. They are just not that great at scoring. Hill is a different player completely from Curry. He could be argued to be better definitely. However, Penny is really overrated. He was great, but gets overrated a ton due to his popularity. In those days he was one of my fav players too. However, now, it's likely that James Harden is a much superior player to him when I take off the nostalgia glasses.

They did a lot, but neither proved anything in the playoffs. Curry's one playoff run he had last year was so much better than anything either Penny or Hill did in the playoffs.

In the only true playoff sample size we have for Penny (21 games), the year they did really well 94-95, he averaged at age 23: 19.6 ppg, 7.7 apg, 3.8 rpg on 47%, 40%, 76%.

Grant Hill at age 24, 26, 27 in the playoffs lost and shot 43.7%, 45.7%, 37.5% with basically no tres a game.

In Steph's first playoff run (12 games), at age 24, he registered an upset without the only "all-star" on his team, and with a gimpy ankle for part of the Spurs series put up: 23.4 ppg, 8.1 apg, 3.8 rpg

[necya]

Penny Hardaway...like someone said, Magic staff did an atrocious job with their players injured. 6 weeks of rest for the same injury as Kidd (who stayed away near 3 months) and Stoudemire (Suns medical decided to rest him for an entire season)
dude was amazing, the complete package with an incredible ball IQ and what a court vision. his skill set and his foot work were outstanding. he was the best guard with MJ in the low post, so many different move...2 things were crazy for me. the maturity of his game after 3 years, was playing like a veteran in his 3rd year (all nba 1st team in his 2nd and 3rd year in the league with guards like Stockton, Payton, MJ, Drexler, Miller), and his faculty to play at an all nba first team level at PG and SG.
his athleticism...some like to point (and they get reason) how athletic are guards like Westbrook or Rose. i have 200 games on dvd of Penny, i still don't have found another guard dunking as much as Penny. (and when the paint was full of traffic in the 90's) He recorded in some games 4,5 and 6 dunks in a single ****ing game :bowdown:
Also, people always bring stats first, like it was the whole mirror of players' game. so Penny was basically 22-7-5 in 95-96. not impressive i guess for the guy who posted Curry stat line, or for the other who said that Hill was able to average 25-8-6.
first, Hill under Collins, had a free pass to do whatever he wanted on the court. on the other hand, penny had to play with a lot of scorers and the big Shaq. either you are as dumb as Stephon Marbury or you play smart and share the ball with your dominant center and your shooters. his rebound ? he played with O'Neal and Horace Grant. what do you want him to average ?? once he played without Shad, he was closer of 6 boards (99,00)
Penny's game was built in a team spirit, he was known to get all the players involved on the offense.
It's like Magic Johnson and people who want to watch his best games. they will try to find his 43pts in playoffs or his 20-20 games. i have seen better games from him when he finished with 18pts 10ast 8rbds.
always be careful with sats...a good one comes from his best season in 95-96. he averages 21,7pts on 51% (thanks to Shaq some bad mouths will say) with a SEASON HIGH of 23 FGA. And with the injury of Shaq who missed 23 games at the start of the season, he just averaged 27-6-6-2 leading Orlando to a 17-5 start.
on the 33 games the Shaq missed during his Orlando days with penny, Hardaway averaged 28pts per game, playing at times at SG with Brian shaw at PG position for a 23-9 record.
After Shaq left, Penny unfortunately had his first surgery at the beginning of the 96-97 season. the starting five played like 10 games together but still, penny with his "bad numbers" led Orlando to a 38-18 record (i removed the last 3 games - 3 defeats - as Orlando could not move up or down, staying at the 7th spot in the east, with Penny averaging 10ppg, preparing for the playoffs where he blowout a top 2 defense of the league with back to back 40pts game whiteout Horace Grant and Rony Seikaly)
His impact on the game is so much underrated. same thing with the suns when he played with Kidd in 99-00. Kidd was seen as the most important piece whereas the suns only went 11-11 during Penny's absence and 10-6 when both Kidd (ankle broken) and Gugliotta were out. after 2 surgeries on his left knee, he outplayed Kobe during the season and the playoffs except for game 5 which was completely dominated by the Lakers.
so, Penny is overrated because of the "what if"... everyone has his opinion, but some facts had to be reminded.

concerning Grant Hill, i think we saw a lot more his potential (in fact Penny never reached his prime) and i was a bit disappointed after his brilliant 3rd year. He got the same team approximatively and fell off a 55-27 year to miss the playoffs the year after.
also, i think he was more valuable when he played more a leader rather than a scorer as he did in 2000.
And i don't understand the Pippen- Hill comparison... Both were great athletic all a rounded, but their games were very different to me. i can only see similar aptitudes to drive to the basket.
unfortunately, the Magic staff did another horrible job concerning his ankle...:facepalm

a last rectification about the penny - MJ myth : they met in 18 games.
in the only game of the RS in 94-95 (3rd game of MJ) Penny played better ok, but MJ had the best of him during the 6 games of the playoffs with a wide marging.
In fact everything started in game 6, MJ started to play him one on one and penny went for 18 first QT points. then, beginning of the 95-96 season, first game : no shaq, no rodman. MJ defended on Penny and Pippen on some actions. Hardaway just put on a show in one on one. after that, second meeting in Chicago, Bulls won, and MJ only defended him on the first isolation. after that they did not played one on one anymore (only on some occasion due to rotation..). Pippen was mostly on him, but surprisingly, the one who defended Penny the best during the season and the 96 playoffs was Ron Harper.

[tmacattack33]

Penny without Shaq would only be winning 45 games, his shooting percentages would drop, his assists would be down, and his turnovers would be up. It goes both ways.

Without Shaq for the first two months of the 1996 season, Penny lead Orlando to a 17-5 record.

He averaged 26.4 ppg, 6.8 apg, 5.3 rpb, on .503 FG% (and .622 TS%)

[STATUTORY]

Only on ISH a peak 21/7/4 player is guarenteed top 20 all time :facepalm :facepalm

tyreke evans was also big on here :facepalm

[tmacattack33]

Lol. No way Curry would be guarding Penny and especially would not be guarding Hill. He'd equally give them fits if they tried to guard him. He's way too fast laterally, and with the ball for them to stay on him for an entire game. He creates separation really really well.

And no they wouldn't. They are just not that great at scoring. Hill is a different player completely from Curry. He could be argued to be better definitely. However, Penny is really overrated. He was great, but gets overrated a ton due to his popularity. In those days he was one of my fav players too. However, now, it's likely that James Harden is a much superior player to him when I take off the nostalgia glasses.

They did a lot, but neither proved anything in the playoffs. Curry's one playoff run he had last year was so much better than anything either Penny or Hill did in the playoffs.

In the only true playoff sample size we have for Penny (21 games), the year they did really well 94-95, he averaged at age 23: 19.6 ppg, 7.7 apg, 3.8 rpg on 47%, 40%, 76%.

Grant Hill at age 24, 26, 27 in the playoffs lost and shot 43.7%, 45.7%, 37.5% with basically no tres a game.

In Steph's first playoff run (12 games), at age 24, he registered an upset without the only "all-star" on his team, and with a gimpy ankle for part of the Spurs series put up: 23.4 ppg, 8.1 apg, 3.8 rpg

Wow. One of the worst posts I've read in a while.