Did MJ ever choked in the playoffs?

[leMVP]

MJ is known to be the greatest winner in basketball (not counting Russell), He's known to be the most clutch performer in the playoffs.

But has he ever choked away a game or series?

I was watching a recap of the Magic series in 95, MJ basically choked away in the elimination game, couple of turnovers late and some missed Js and no one talks about it.

So, my question, how many chokes Jordan had during his illustrious career?

[Smook A.]

1995 eastern conference 2nd round

[edrick]

Sure, but not in the finals.

[K Xerxes]

Never lost with HCA. GOAT.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Orlando series in 95.


-In before out of shape excuse.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

1995 eastern conference 2nd round
This but its telling that MJ only choked once in 37 playoff series

[wildchild]

How was that choke? ball got stolen choke?

MJ never choked, most clutch performer in game's history.

[Eric Cartman]

Against the bad boy pistons many times.

It wasn't until the league made him unstoppable that he stopped sucking a big fat one come playoff time.

[plowking]

Sure, but not in the finals.

People call Kobe's 6-24 a choke and that he got saved by teammates...

How is Jordan's 5-19 close out against Seattle any different?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

1995 Orlando post baseball. Otherwise? No. Theres a difference between 'choking' and playing bad.

[Sarcastic]

People call Kobe's 6-24 a choke and that he got saved by teammates...

How is Jordan's 5-19 close out against Seattle any different?


He was coasting.

[NumberSix]

It depends on what exactly counts as a "choke".

[DonDadda59]

What does Deuce's choke rating have to say about this?


Against the bad boy pistons many times.

Jordan choked against the Bad Boys? Really? It was MJ's 'migraine' that cost the Bulls a probable championship in '90? :confusedshrug:


It wasn't until the league made him unstoppable that he stopped sucking a big fat one come playoff time.

Now I'm sure this is just a poor troll attempt, but please humor me. How exactly did the league make Jordan unstoppable? Really looking forward to reading about that.

[plowking]

1995 Orlando post baseball. Otherwise? No. Theres a difference between 'choking' and playing bad.

So what do we consider his closeout game against Seattle? How about game 7 against the Pacers? Just bad games?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

It depends on what exactly counts as a "choke".

True. Plowking also has a good point. Do y'all consider Kobe's 6-24 a "choke" or him simply playing like garbage?

[9erempiree]

He choked against Orlando. Also, he did kind of choke in the 80's.

[DonDadda59]

Also, he did kind of choke in the 80's.

Against whom exactly? What team was he favored against that he lost to and choked against? The GOAT team candidate '86 Celtics who he dropped 63 on and averaged 44/6/6 (51%) against with Orlando Woolridge as his second option?

The Pistons when Pippen and Grant were both coming off the bench and then later suffering migraines against in game 7 of the ECF?

[Eric Cartman]

How exactly did the league make Jordan unstoppable? Really looking forward to reading about that.

By calling ticky tack fouls on anyone that dare even to do as much as breath on him and the refs biased against the anyone that went up to him.

For reference see the 1998 Finals against the Jazz and 1993 against the Knicks. Hell even 1998 against the Pacers we saw some shady officiating clearly favoring the Bulls cause the league wanted to see the second 3 peat at all costs, in this case at the expense of the integrity of the league.

[NumberSix]

True. Plowking also has a good point. Do y'all consider Kobe's 6-24 a "choke" or him simply playing like garbage?
It's hard to say that simply missing your shots is a "choke", but if you believe that the reason someone missed their shots is because they folded under the pressure of a big game, that is a choke.

[Angel Face]

None, He played well against the Bad Boy Pistons. It was his team mates that under performed and Scottie Pippen is not yet the Scottie Pippen during that series.

[tmacattack33]

Never lost with HCA. GOAT.

Interesting if true.

On the flipside, then that means whenever he was eliminated it was without HCA. So he failed to perform on the road against tougher teams. If it was any other player, the spin would be that this player is b*atch because he can't handle not having HCA against anyone with a better regular season record than him.

[9erempiree]

Against whom exactly? What team was he favored against that he lost to and choked against? The GOAT team candidate '86 Celtics who he dropped 63 on and averaged 44/6/6 (51%) against with Orlando Woolridge as his second option?

The Pistons when Pippen and Grant were both coming off the bench and then later suffering migraines against in game 7 of the ECF?

You don't have to be favorites to choke. The mere fact that the got the ball ripped against Orlando is proof enough of choking.

[JT123]

By calling ticky tack fouls on anyone that dare even to do as much as breath on him and the refs biased against the anyone that went up to him.

For reference see the 1998 Finals against the Jazz and 1993 against the Knicks. Hell even 1998 against the Pacers we saw some shady officiating clearly favoring the Bulls cause the league wanted to see the second 3 peat at all costs, in this case at the expense of the integrity of the league.
:applause: Agreed. Jordan knob slobers are about to curse you out though. :roll: :roll:

[Da_Realist]

People call Kobe's 6-24 a choke and that he got saved by teammates...

How is Jordan's 5-19 close out against Seattle any different?

He shot poorly. He didn't choke. The Bulls were up 10 the whole game.


So what do we consider his closeout game against Seattle? How about game 7 against the Pacers? Just bad games?

Phil Jackson was so impressed at MJ's insistence on driving to the hoop to draw fouls and manufacture points despite his fatigue that he highlighted it in game film for the rest of the Bulls in the next practice to show the willpower they would need to have to win the championship that year. So...no. He did not choke.

Bird mentioned this as well in his post game comments.

[Da_Realist]

93 Series vs New York

He shot poorly in some games, but he didn't choke nor did he play poorly. :facepalm

[DonDadda59]

By calling ticky tack fouls on anyone that dare even to do as much as breath on him and the refs biased against the anyone that went up to him.

For reference see the 1998 Finals against the Jazz and 1993 against the Knicks. Hell even 1998 against the Pacers we saw some shady officiating clearly favoring the Bulls cause the league wanted to see the second 3 peat at all costs, in this case at the expense of the integrity of the league.

The league making Jordan 'unstoppable' in the 90s...

90-93
Reg Season: 23.7 FGA (2.1 3-pter attempts/gm), 7.9 FTA
Playoffs: 25.8 FGA (2.6 3-pter attempts/gm), 9 FTA

96-98
Reg Season: 22.9 FGA (2.8 3-pter attempts/gm), 7.9 FTA
Playoffs: 24.7 FGA (3 3-pter attempts/gm), 9.6 FTA

Upholding the 'integrity of the league' in the modern era...

LeBron 10-14
Reg Season: 18.6 FGA (3.7 3-pter attempts/gm), 8.2 FTA
Playoffs: 19.5 FGA (4.1 3-pter attempts/gm), 8.8 FTA

Durant 10-14
Reg Season: 19.6 FGA (4.9 3-pter attempts/gm), 9.2 FTA
Playoffs: 20.3 FGA (6 3-pter attempts/gm), 9.2 FTA

If Jordan got to play in this era filled with so much 'integrity', he'd be even more 'unstoppable' :oldlol:

But hey...

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/3b/3bf63b5f470de83fb661611bf97138fb5be8964e80b51054bd 28eca31745917f.jpg

[D.J.]

He's had games where he didn't shoot well, or missed shots with a chance to tie or win the game. But let's look at it like this; he never lost a series with HCA and the only instance you really can say he choked was where he was just 2 months into a return where he hadn't played in almost 2 years.

[DonDadda59]

You don't have to be favorites to choke. The mere fact that the got the ball ripped against Orlando is proof enough of choking.

OK, so let's say him coming back to play 17 games after being out for nearly 2 seasons and having a turnover against the Magic is considered choking. You said he 'kind of choked in the 80s'. Tell me specifically against whom and how.

[plowking]

DonDadda, you're sad bro. Another Jordan jocker who's worried about Lebron's place in history, and potential place above Jordan that he has to bring him down in every thread.

Anyone notice Jordan fans never did that 4 or 5 years ago when he was on the Cavs? The whole Jordan brigade was too busy with Kobe. Jordan fans are probably the worst on this site to be honest. Don't say a single bad word about their idol...

[DonDadda59]

DonDadda, you're sad bro. Another Jordan jocker who's worried about Lebron's place in history, and potential place above Jordan that he has to bring him down in every thread.

Anyone notice Jordan fans never did that 4 or 5 years ago when he was on the Cavs? The whole Jordan brigade was too busy with Kobe. Jordan fans are probably the worst on this site to be honest. Don't say a single bad word about their idol...

F*ck outta here you clown :lol

Don't speak unless spoken to. Now unless you have something to add to the discussion see yourself out.

[plowking]

F*ck outta here you clown :lol

Don't speak unless spoken to. Now unless you have something to add to the discussion see yourself out.

You--->:cry:

Nice tough guy act. :oldlol:

The only thing you do on here is bash Floyd, and preach about Jordan and how the good old days of basketball were better. :oldlol:

[DonDadda59]

The only thing you do on here is bash Floyd, and preach about Jordan and how the good old days of basketball were better. :oldlol:

Yeah, speaking of which... Everyone was waiting for you to respond to your roasting here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=322472&page=9)

Now again, unless you have anything to add to that or this discussion pick up your tampons on aisle 7, pay the cashier and

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/253080/ari-gold-gtfo-o.gif

But have a nice day doe :cheers:

[The Iron Fist]

Against whom exactly? What team was he favored against that he lost to and choked against? The GOAT team candidate '86 Celtics who he dropped 63 on and averaged 44/6/6 (51%) against with Orlando Woolridge as his second option?

The Pistons when Pippen and Grant were both coming off the bench and then later suffering migraines against in game 7 of the ECF?
Why are you trying to make that sound like a bad thing? Dude scored 20 ppg and shot .495, damn near the supposedly magical 50%. That team also had Charles Oakley who Jordan was/is very fond of, John Paxson and a veteran Gervin.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yeah, speaking of which... Everyone was waiting for you to respond to your roasting here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=322472&page=9)

Now again, unless you have anything to add to that or this discussion pick up your tampons on aisle 7, pay the cashier and

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/253080/ari-gold-gtfo-o.gif

But have a nice day doe :cheers:

:oldlol:

[SilkkTheShocker]

F*ck outta here you clown :lol

Don't speak unless spoken to. Now unless you have something to add to the discussion see yourself out.


Nice punt.

[plowking]

Yeah, speaking of which... Everyone was waiting for you to respond to your roasting here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=322472&page=9)

Now again, unless you have anything to add to that or this discussion pick up your tampons on aisle 7, pay the cashier and

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/253080/ari-gold-gtfo-o.gif

But have a nice day doe :cheers:

Didn't even bother to respond to it since you didn't understand the argument. :oldlol:

I clearly said that defenses during 98-04 were getting too good, and too advanced. I never said anything about the new rules advancing and helping defenses in today's game. I said the exact opposite.
I said the game evolved too much, that defenses were getting too good, hence rule changes to allow a more free flowing game like that of prior to the 98-04 period.
Your whole argument essentially had nothing to do with what I said... :oldlol:

Basically you don't understand that you have to compensate in any type of business or machine model. If a cog or part of the machine progresses far quicker than another, you make changes to allow the other part to catch up.

[DonDadda59]

Why are you trying to make that sound like a bad thing? Dude scored 20 ppg and shot .495, damn near the supposedly magical 50%. That team also had Charles Oakley who Jordan was/is very fond of, John Paxson and a veteran Gervin.

I want you to take a look at the sort of production the 86 Celtics were putting up in that series:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1986_EC1.html#BOS-CHI

Robert Parish at 17/9/2BPG was their 5th option

Now please tell me how in the world Orlando Woolridge and Charles Oakley are competing with that :lol

63 from Jordan was only enough to force over time, not even get a W against that monster squad.


Didn't even bother to respond to it since you didn't understand the argument.

CoolStoryBro.gif

Go with tampax pearl, ultra absorbent. Should cure all that ails ya.

[plowking]

CoolStoryBro.gif

Go with tampax pearl, ultra absorbent. Should cure all that ails ya.

That was so weak. :oldlol: :oldlol:

You realized your whole 1000 word essay was basically just saying what I was saying. :oldlol:

Seriously, that's the best you've got? You didn't understand the argument, and you look silly typing all that out.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

It's funny how all these Jordan jockers used to rip on Kobe in the past when he was a threat to Jordan. Now that Lebron's at the top, they look for every little detail to bring him down. Soon they'll be doing it to Durant.

[Fudge]

Ever choked.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

It's funny how all these Jordan jockers used to rip on Kobe in the past when he was a threat to Jordan. Now that Lebron's at the top, they look for every little detail to bring him down. Soon they'll be doing it to Durant.

Not me. I actually like Durant and was ****ing pissed, Lebron made him look like shit in their last H2H.

[DonDadda59]

...

http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/tumblr_m7f32rQMMc1rajdejo1_400.jpg

Seriously though... do you have anything to say about the topic at hand? Should've just ducked out and let it die like before. Shit is just embarrassing for you at this point brodie.


It's funny how all these Jordan jockers used to rip on Kobe in the past when he was a threat to Jordan. Now that Lebron's at the top, they look for every little detail to bring him down.

Actually, the funny thing is that the only time LeBron was brought up by anyone besides his Captain Save A Ho brigade was me talking about free throw vs FGA/3s per game disparity :lol

But yes, he was being 'brought down' so dudes like the Duck King had to throw on their cape and menstruate all over the place.

Looks like this thread is over. It's been real... sort of :cheers:

[plowking]

DonDadda essentially avoiding to talk about the topic at all once he realized his whole argument is... well, not an argument at this point.

Deflection is a great tool to use on the stupid on here, since they get easily distracted. But basically, you're avoiding an honest reply since you feel silly you didn't actually understand the topic and wrote all that out. lol...

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Are you actually trying to deny you don't nitpick every little detail about Kobe and Lebron so you can prop up Jordan? Like really? You know your post history is easily accessible, right?

[DonDadda59]

DonDadda essentially avoiding to talk about the topic at all once he realized his whole argument is... well, not an argument at this point.

Deflection is a great tool to use on the stupid on here, since they get easily distracted. But basically, you're avoiding an honest reply since you feel silly you didn't actually understand the topic and wrote all that out. lol...

You can't make this shit up :lol

I'm the one that's deflecting? I've been hounding you for days in multiple threads to talk basketball... can't seem to do it though. You've added absolutely nothing to the original discussion in this thread. Literally zero.

But I'm deflecting. Come on son.

[Psileas]

What exactly constitutes "choking"?
Given a few posts I read, let me ask this: Given this whole "only losses with HCA count" thing that some so much love here, is it impossible to choke if you play for a constant underdog? So, can we also make a case for 2000-2005 T-Mac never choking in the playoffs, either?
And given that Kobe has only suffered 2 such losses in 15 postseasons, less than all GOAT candidates except for Jordan+Russell, how come he doesn't get the "non-choker" recognition he deserves?

How about the category "series lost despite leading at least once"? How come this category gets no love?

[KingLeBronJames]

1996 NBA Finals. Mike shot 6-19

[Deuce Bigalow]

What does Deuce's choke rating have to say about this?
:lol

0 + (30.1-33.4) + (30.1-33.6) + (6.2-6.4) + (6.2-6.0) + (5.3-5.7) + (5.3-6.0) + (49.7-48.7) + (49.7-48.6) + (83.5-82.8) + (83.5-80.6) - 6 = -8.2

[Deuce Bigalow]

What exactly constitutes "choking"?
Given a few posts I read, let me ask this: Given this whole "only losses with HCA count" thing that some so much love here, is it impossible to choke if you play for a constant underdog? So, can we also make a case for 2000-2005 T-Mac never choking in the playoffs, either?
And given that Kobe has only suffered 2 such losses in 15 postseasons, less than all GOAT candidates except for Jordan+Russell, how come he doesn't get the "non-choker" recognition he deserves?

How about the category "series lost despite leading at least once"? How come this category gets no love?
What constitutes choking? Someone who wilts in the playoffs, no pun intended.

[DonDadda59]

:lol

0 + (30.1-33.4) + (30.1-33.6) + (6.2-6.4) + (6.2-6.0) + (5.3-5.7) + (5.3-6.0) + (49.7-48.7) + (49.7-48.6) + (83.5-82.8) + (83.5-80.6) - 6 = -8.2

For those who don't know... please tell them what this means :D


What constitutes choking? Someone who wilts in the playoffs, no pun intended.

:no:

[Psileas]

What constitutes choking? Someone who wilts in the playoffs, no pun intended.

Aaah, good to know. I guess I'll have to retract my Kobe praises, then.

[juju151111]

Yeah, speaking of which... Everyone was waiting for you to respond to your roasting here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=322472&page=9)

Now again, unless you have anything to add to that or this discussion pick up your tampons on aisle 7, pay the cashier and

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/253080/ari-gold-gtfo-o.gif

But have a nice day doe :cheers:
Oh Shit :lol

[juju151111]

1996 NBA Finals. Mike shot 6-19
The Bulls were already up 3-0.:facepalm

[Deuce Bigalow]

For those who don't know... please tell them what this means :D



:no:
NBA choking rating
Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Top 3 chokers in NBA history:

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Karl Malone: 8 + (25.0-24.7) + (25.0-19.6) + (10.1-10.7) + (10.1-9.6) + (3.6-3.2) + (3.6-3.3) + (51.6-46.3) + (51.6-46.0) + (74.2-73.6) + (74.2-67.6) - 0 = 32.4

David Robinson: 6 + (21.1-18.1) + (21.1-13.5) + (10.6-10.6) + (10.6-9.4) + (2.5-2.3) + (2.5-1.5) + (51.8-47.9) + (51.8-49.5) + (73.6-70.8) + (73.6-69.2) - 2 = 30.4
Negative choking rating:

Jerry West: 2 + (27.0-29.1) + (27.0-30.5) + (5.8-5.6) + (5.8-5.0) + (6.7-6.3) + (6.7-5.3) + (47.4-46.9) + (47.4-45.9) + (81.4-80.5) + (81.4-82.6) - 1 = -0.1

Michael Jordan: 0 + (30.1-33.4) + (30.1-33.6) + (6.2-6.4) + (6.2-6.0) + (5.3-5.7) + (5.3-6.0) + (49.7-48.7) + (49.7-48.6) + (83.5-82.8) + (83.5-80.6) - 6 = -8.2

Bill Russell: 1 + (15.1-16.2) + (15.1 - 16.4) + (22.5 - 24.9) + (22.5 - 23.9) + (4.3 - 4.7) + ( 4.3 - 4) + ( 44% - 43%) + ( 44% - 47.1%) + (56.1% - 60.3%) + (56.1% - 61.3%) - 11 = -27.8
:cheers:

[KingLeBronJames]

The Bulls were already up 3-0.:facepalm
Whether they were up 3-0, won games 5, 6, 7 to win the NBA Championship or whatever. He CHOKED.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I was watching a recap of the Magic series in 95, MJ basically choked away in the elimination game, couple of turnovers late and some missed Js and no one talks about it.
a) missed basically 2 years of basketball b) what are you talking about? He dropped a perfect dime with the entire defense focused on him to Luc Longely who blew a layup to tie the game. All things considering MJ performed well in the '95 playoffs given all the rust, missed timing, etc. He was 32 years old. They weren't the favorites either. I view that series as him being very rusty. Not choking ala Bron in 2011.

[Da_Realist]

Shooting poorly and choking are two totally different things. I define choking to mean a player loses himself due to the pressure of the situation. Like Chris Webber would be aggressive for 3 and a half quarters but then play hot potato with the ball during the last six minutes of every game of the WCF against the Lakers in 2002. That's choking. When the moment is too much for a player. Or when Lebron stops trying to win against the Celtics a few years ago. Nick Anderson free throw misses in the 95 Finals. Stuff like that.

[juju151111]

Whether they were up 3-0, won games 5, 6, 7 to win the NBA Championship or whatever. He CHOKED.
No he didn't retard. He won the chip and finals MVP:facepalm

[The-Legend-24]

Yea, Pippen had to come in and set his ass straight.

[ThePhantomCreep]

1995 vs Orlando is the only one that stands out. He had a few terrible miscues late in games.

Jordan was, for the most part, insanely clutch. He's also one of the few superstars to never lose a series his team was favored to win. Bird, Magic, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Bron, etc. can't say that.

[KingLeBronJames]

No he didn't retard. He won the chip and finals MVP:facepalm
Shooting 6-19 is not choking to you?

[ThePhantomCreep]

Shooting 6-19 is not choking to you?

In a game Chicago led comfortably throughout? That's a reach.

[houston]

yes he did. Pistons punked him alot before

[ThePhantomCreep]

yes he did. Pistons punked him alot before
The Pistons were favored in every series they won, overwhelmingly so in 1988 and 1989. Jordan individually played terrific.

No concept of choking on ISH. None.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Yea, Pippen had to come in and set his ass straight.
Umm, Pippen was the exact opposite of setting anything straight. The exact opposite of clutch.

Hell, rookie Toni Kukoc had to set his pouting ass straight, and win games for the Bulls in crunch time while Scottie pouted on the bench.

Pip cost MJ potential Finals trips in '89, and especially '90 with his "migranes" and all around weak mental game that allowed the Pistons to shake him to his core. Where he wasn't able to provide MJ with the supplemental help required to win.

Only on ISH is choking winning a championship as well as a Finals MVP @ ages of 33, and 35. Willing his team to victory.

No, choking is being in your prime, on favored teams yet completely disappearing, or having hollow impact on games that matter most and losing when expected to win.

Is this what we've come to in 2014? Revisionist history to make it seem like the game's most clutch player ever choked on multiple occassions? haha

I don't think you kids know what the term to choke means. It is snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

[mehyaM24]

Game 4 vs 89 cavs: before "the shot", jordan missed a last second shot in overtime and missed a crucial freethrow near the end of the game too. CHOKE

game 1 1991 finals: goes 0-2 in the last 30 seconds. bulls had the lead with 30 seconds left too. CHOKE.

game 3 1992 finals: goes scoreless for the last 10 minutes of the fourth quarter. blazers tie the series 2-2 after winning a close game. CHOKE

game 1 vs ny 1993: goes just 2 for his last 12 shots. knicks win while jordan was a no show in the second half, and was scoreless for several key stretches in the second half. CHOKE.

game 6 1993 ECF vs ny: 0-7 in fourth quarter while Pippen bails him out. CHOKE

game 1 of 1995 series vs. Magic: nightmare. CHOKE

game 4 vs jazz 1997: goes 1-3 in the closing minutes, and turns the ball over on a crucial possession. jazz steal the game. CHOKE

1998 ecf vs game 3 indiana: misses crucial FT and the last shot to eliminate any chance of comeback. made just hit one shot in the last 7 minutes of the game. CHOKE

[T_L_P]

MJ never choke in the Playoffs

[Simple Jack]

Surprised no one has mentioned Game 5 of the ECF in 1989...

Biggest game of his career up until that point..took 8 shots total; including 1 in the 4th quarter (an airball).

[mehyaM24]

Surprised no one has mentioned Game 5 of the ECF in 1989...

Biggest game of his career up until that point..took 8 shots total; including 1 in the 4th quarter (an airball).

cant believe i forgot this one :facepalm after a game like this? you damn well ****ing know lebron would have been torn to shreds.

[Black Mamba's B]

What's HCA?

[Warfan]

What's HCA?

home court advantage

[Big#50]

Choked? No
He def had bad games and a couple of bad series'.
Every great has played bad one time or another. No player is perfect.

[Simple Jack]

Choked? No
He def had bad games and a couple of bad series'.
Every great has played bad one time or another. No player is perfect.

Refer to my post above. In its plan definition used for any other player...it's a choke.

[Black Mamba's B]

home court advantage
Thank you sir :cheers:

[Angel Face]

I searched Michael Jordan choke on google images, this came out.

http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac101/angelfacefc/MJChoke_zpsd18a949b.jpg

[iamgine]

It's hard to quantify choking. Choking is not only an action, but it has to have the element of affected state of mind that leads to a negative action.

Karl Malone missed 2 FTs after Pippen allegedly told him that mailmen don't deliver on sundays. That seemed like a choke but it is actually not a choke IF Karl wasn't affected by the words or get affected by the moment and just simply miss due to tiredness or bad mechanics.

[diamenz]

I searched Michael Jordan choke on google images, this came out.

http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac101/angelfacefc/MJChoke_zpsd18a949b.jpg

internets don't lie.

<3 doe, heat fans

[diamenz]

Game 4 vs 89 cavs: before "the shot", jordan missed a last second shot in overtime and missed a crucial freethrow near the end of the game too. CHOKE

game 1 1991 finals: goes 0-2 in the last 30 seconds. bulls had the lead with 30 seconds left too. CHOKE.

game 3 1992 finals: goes scoreless for the last 10 minutes of the fourth quarter. blazers tie the series 2-2 after winning a close game. CHOKE

game 1 vs ny 1993: goes just 2 for his last 12 shots. knicks win while jordan was a no show in the second half, and was scoreless for several key stretches in the second half. CHOKE.

game 6 1993 ECF vs ny: 0-7 in fourth quarter while Pippen bails him out. CHOKE

game 1 of 1995 series vs. Magic: nightmare. CHOKE

game 4 vs jazz 1997: goes 1-3 in the closing minutes, and turns the ball over on a crucial possession. jazz steal the game. CHOKE

1998 ecf vs game 3 indiana: misses crucial FT and the last shot to eliminate any chance of comeback. made just hit one shot in the last 7 minutes of the game. CHOKE

someone needs some joy in their lyfe.

[guy]

People call Kobe's 6-24 a choke and that he got saved by teammates...

How is Jordan's 5-19 close out against Seattle any different?

Bulls were up 3-2, with still a chance to close out the series in game 7 at home if they had lost that game. If you watch the game, you didn't get the feeling that Jordan was overwhelmed by the moment or anything like that. Not to mention the Bulls had been up the whole series starting off 3-0, and they were up that whole game as well, outscoring the Sonics each quarter. I wouldn't call someone choking when a player wasn't really facing much adversity or pressure in a series/game. Jordan wasn't really facing that much of that in this series.

Completely different from Kobe's game where it was an elimination game, the series had gone back and forth, and the Lakers were down for much of that game. Not sure I'd even say Kobe choked since he still did his part at the end, just that he didn't come close to the expectations people were expecting someone of his caliber in a game 7 of a series like that.

[oolalaa]

Interesting if true.

On the flipside, then that means whenever he was eliminated it was without HCA. So he failed to perform on the road against tougher teams. If it was any other player, the spin would be that this player is b*atch because he can't handle not having HCA against anyone with a better regular season record than him.

He won several series WITHOUT HCA, including the '93 and '98 Finals..

'88 ECR1 Cavs
'89 ECR1 Cavs, '89 ECR2 Knicks
'93 ECFs Knicks, '93 Finals Suns
'95 ECR1 Hornets
'98 Finals Jazz

In fact, he WON as many series WITHOUT HCA than as he LOST! (won 7/lost 7)

[Da_Realist]

Interesting if true.

On the flipside, then that means whenever he was eliminated it was without HCA. So he failed to perform on the road against tougher teams. If it was any other player, the spin would be that this player is b*atch because he can't handle not having HCA against anyone with a better regular season record than him.

:facepalm 15 years of destroying teams on the road with a ton of them available on youtube and you still say this.

"He wouldn't give up. That's what I would say about Michael Jordan. He would not give up." -- James Edwards, Detroit Pistons
http://www.nba.com/pistons/video/2014/03/03/UMTheJordanRules2mp4-3180200

[mehyaM24]

someone needs some joy in their lyfe.

jordan fan and red herring go hand in hand :oldlol:

those are hard facts. deal with it

[TheMan]

He was coasting.
This

It was still only GM 6, he woulds gone HAM on a deciding GM 7:bowdown:

[TheMan]

jordan fan and red herring go hand in hand :oldlol:

those are hard facts. deal with it
You one salty bitch and green with envy that an overwhelming majority of fans STILL view MJ as GOAT:oldlol: Even in today's LeBron era.

Stay bitter my friend:banana:

[TheMan]

So what do we consider his closeout game against Seattle? How about game 7 against the Pacers? Just bad games?
Simple, bad game if your team wins, choke if your team loses:D

[97 bulls]

Some of these guys have no idea of what it is to legitimately choke. Choking means you fail in a situation you SHOULD succed in. Missing a shot or a FT in the waining moments of a game is not choking. You just missed. Sometimes you make them, sometimes you don't.

If Dwight Howard misses two FTs at the end of a game, I wouldn't call that choking. If Ray Allen does... thats a choke.

What Nick Anderson did in the 95 Finals was a choke job. Not because of his missing the FTs, but because he missed four straight.

Magic in 84 choked.

[97 bulls]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCoQtwIwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fm.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DYQ1bd 2g3p1Y&ei=4vsyU9PtBNKJogSx7oL4AQ&usg=AFQjCNEeEJZKf8I3tHXQtm5phP3SE6LrxA&sig2=kZAPG5NYARlMWVM_J0O36w

The Magic choke. After watching this vid, it almost seems as if Magic was trying to sabotage the series.

[mehyaM24]

nope. sorry. missing freethrows in waning moments, WHEN YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO MAKE THEM, is choking.

going scoreless the last 10 minutes of the 4th, WHEN YOU ARE KNOWN AS A SCORER, is choking. in the finals? that is folding like a bitch.

full game on this channel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbsxDGG9Gv4

[TheMan]

nope. sorry. missing freethrows in waning moments, WHEN YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO MAKE THEM, is choking.

going scoreless the last 10 minutes of the 4th, WHEN YOU ARE KNOWN AS A SCORER, is choking. in the finals? that is folding like a bitch.

full game on this channel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbsxDGG9Gv4
Dude, don't go there, not good for your boy:oldlol: 2011 Finals ring a bell? Give me just one example of a Jordan Bulls team favored to win a series that he was the reason they lost. Are you trying to deny LeBron didn't cost the Heat that championship??? I could mention more LeBron postseason failures but I'll let you tackle this one:pimp: No player is perfect, we all know this, some fail less and some fail more.

You know MJ never failed as hard as LeBron did in 2011, don't even go there junior:D

[TheMan]

Some of these guys have no idea of what it is to legitimately choke. Choking means you fail in a situation you SHOULD succed in. Missing a shot or a FT in the waining moments of a game is not choking. You just missed. Sometimes you make them, sometimes you don't.

If Dwight Howard misses two FTs at the end of a game, I wouldn't call that choking. If Ray Allen does... thats a choke.

What Nick Anderson did in the 95 Finals was a choke job. Not because of his missing the FTs, but because he missed four straight.

Magic in 84 choked.
To use other sports so the not so quick among us could understand...if you miss a 24 yard FG in the final seconds of a football game = choke. If you miss a 58 yarder when your longest is 54 yards is not a choke. Or in soccer, if you miss a late minute penalty kick, that's a choke.

[mehyaM24]

Dude, don't go there, not good for your boy:oldlol: 2011 Finals ring a bell? Give me just one example of a Jordan Bulls team favored to win a series that he was the reason they lost. Are you trying to deny LeBron didn't cost the Heat that championship??? I could mention more LeBron postseason failures but I'll let you tackle this one:pimp: No player is perfect, we all know this, some fail less and some fail more.

You know MJ never failed as hard as LeBron did in 2011, don't even go there junior:D

more red herrings. cant say im surprised. :rolleyes: are you gonna address the post at hand or just shift goal posts because you're insecure over another mans legacy?

[ihoopallday]

Imagine if sports forums like insidehoops existed during that time. Today, we nit pick everything athletes do. Same would happen to MJ, but of course there'd be more praise than hating.

[nightprowler10]

Why is this thread still going after DonDadda nuked it?

[fpliii]

Imagine if sports forums like insidehoops existed during that time. Today, we nit pick everything athletes do. Same would happen to MJ, but of course there'd be more praise than hating.
Usenet was around:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/michael$20jordan$20choked$20after$3A1984$2F01$2F01 $20before$3A1998$2F12$2F31

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Usenet Group from '96 (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/michael$20jordan$20choked$20after$3A1984$2F01$2F01 $20$20before$3A1998$2F12$2F31/rec.sport.basketball.pro/BA9rl3t4v0M/6KMts_SxsTkJ)


Why Wilt *isn't* #1: The Choke Factor

:lol

[Psileas]

Surprised no one has mentioned Game 5 of the ECF in 1989...

Biggest game of his career up until that point..took 8 shots total; including 1 in the 4th quarter (an airball).

In a way, I have. Post #47.


Usenet Group from '96 (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/michael$20jordan$20choked$20after$3A1984$2F01$2F01 $20$20before$3A1998$2F12$2F31/rec.sport.basketball.pro/BA9rl3t4v0M/6KMts_SxsTkJ)



:lol

Air Judden owning fools. :applause:

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Air Judden's homepage (http://airjudden.tripod.com/)

I've actually been to his web page before. Unsurprisingly, he doesn't think MJ is the GOAT (http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/index.htm)

[juju151111]

Air Judden's homepage (http://airjudden.tripod.com/)

I've actually been to his web page before. Unsurprisingly, he doesn't think MJ is the GOAT (http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/index.htm)
That guy gets owned the moment he tries that on Ish.

[Simple Jack]

nope. sorry. missing freethrows in waning moments, WHEN YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO MAKE THEM, is choking.

going scoreless the last 10 minutes of the 4th, WHEN YOU ARE KNOWN AS A SCORER, is choking. in the finals? that is folding like a bitch.

full game on this channel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbsxDGG9Gv4

Right so airballing your only shot attempt (of 8 FGA in the whole game), would be choking correct?

[Simple Jack]

In a way, I have. Post #47.



Would you consider that choking? I mean the narrative is pretty much the same. Up 2-1, not a great game 4 (teammates played bad as well)...then nowhere to be found in game 5.

Choking is an interesting concept. If you are in a competitive situation, but refuse to give a certain level of effort, did you really choke? It's hard to say but I feel like choking usually involves giving a certain level of effort, but executing horribly resulting in a loss (in which you were favored to win).

[LAZERUSS]

What constitutes choking? Someone who wilts in the playoffs, no pun intended.

Kobe in his Finals...


99-00
Regular season 22.5 ppg .468 FG%
Finals 15.6 ppg .367 FG%
FG% in the last Game of Series .296 FG%

00-01
Regular season 28.5 ppg .464 FG%
Finals 24.6 ppg .415 FG%
Last Game of the series, .389

01-02
Regular season 25.2 ppg .469
Finals 26.8 ppg .514
Last Game .438

03-04
Regular season 24.0 ppg .438
Finals 22.6 ppg .381
Last Game .333

07-08
Regular season 28.3 ppg .459
Finals 25.7 ppg .405
Last game of the series, .318

08-09
Regular season 26.8 ppg .467
Finals 32.4 ppg .430
Last game of the series, .435

09-10
Regular season 27.0 ppg .456
Finals 28.6 ppg .405
Last game of the series, .250 from the floor.


Other noteables:


97-98
Swept by Utah 4-0.
Kobe averages 10.0 ppg on a .367 FG%

98-99
Swept by San Antonio 4-0
Last game of the series : Kobe 16 points on a .438 FG%

02-03
Lose to Spurs in WCF's, 4-2.
Last game loss by a score of 110-82 (Kobe with 20 points in a season in which he averaged 30 ppg)

03-04 Finals
Heavily favored Lakers lose to Pistons, 4-1.
In the clinching game five loss Kobe shoots .333 in a 100-87 loss (and LA was down 23 going into 4th quarter)

04-05
team goes 34-48 and misses playoffs

05-06
Regular season 35.4 ppg .450
Playoffs 27.9 ppg .497
Last game (7) 24 points in a 121-90 loss (after blowing a 3-1 series lead)

06-07
Team goes 42-40
Loses in first round to Suns, 4-1.
Last game of that series, Kobe shoots .394 from the floor

07-08
Lakers are blown out by Celts in Finals.
In game four the Lakers blow a 23 point lead, and lose, in a game in which Kobe shot .316 from the field.
In the clinching game six loss, the Lakers lose by a Finals record margin of 131-92. Kobe shoots .318 from the floor.

10-11
Lakers with HCA are swept by the Mavs, 4-0.
In the clinching game four loss, LA loses 122-86, and Kobe shoots .389 from the field.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe in his Finals...
ppg/rpg/apg/spg/bpg/tov/fg%/ft%
SEASON: 25.5 / 5.3 / 4.8 / 1.5 / 0.5 / 3.0 / 45.4 / 83.8
PLAYOFF: 25.6 / 5.1 / 4.7 / 1.4 / 0.7 / 2.9 / 44.8 / 81.6
FINALS: 25.3 / 5.7 / 5.1 / 1.8 / 0.9 / 3.3 / 41.2 / 84.8

5 Championships
5-2 in the Finals
27-2 series with HCA

Meanwhile Wilt with the highest choking rating of alltime...

[LAZERUSS]

ppg/rpg/apg/spg/bpg/tov/fg%/ft%
SEASON: 25.5 / 5.3 / 4.8 / 1.5 / 0.5 / 3.0 / 45.4 / 83.8
PLAYOFF: 25.6 / 5.1 / 4.7 / 1.4 / 0.7 / 2.9 / 44.8 / 81.6
FINALS: 25.3 / 5.7 / 5.1 / 1.8 / 0.9 / 3.3 / 41.2 / 84.8

5 Championships
5-2 in the Finals
27-2 series with HCA

Meanwhile Wilt with the highest choking rating of alltime...

Chamberlain was arguably the best center on the floor in every one of his 29 playoff series, and probably the best player on the floor in well over 20 of them. He was never outrebounded in any of those 29 series, and was only outshot from the field by an opposing center in one (and in that series, Wilt missed 20 shots, and his opposing center missed 107.) Not only that, but Wilt DRAMATICALLY reduced the FG% efficiency of his opposing centers in the vast majority of those 29 series, including reducing a prime KAJ by over 10% combined in their two post-season H2H series.

Meanwhile, Kobe personally LOST both the '04 and '08 Finals, while playing poorly in nearly all of them.

[Psileas]

Would you consider that choking? I mean the narrative is pretty much the same. Up 2-1, not a great game 4 (teammates played bad as well)...then nowhere to be found in game 5.

Choking is an interesting concept. If you are in a competitive situation, but refuse to give a certain level of effort, did you really choke? It's hard to say but I feel like choking usually involves giving a certain level of effort, but executing horribly resulting in a loss (in which you were favored to win).

Everyone tries to give "choking" a meaning that will mean the least harm for his favorite players. I don't like using this term for this exact reason, that its meaning is so vague.
Does the lack of effort mean that someone choke? Even if it doesn't, look at game 4. Plus, this might mean something worse, it may mean that this player is practically sabotaging his team, purposefully underperforming to prove something. Or that he quit. It definitely can't be seen in a positive or neutral light. It never had been with others who would sporadically have a suspiciously passive game.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Chamberlain was arguably the best center on the floor in every one of his 29 playoff series, and probably the best player on the floor in well over 20 of them. He was never outrebounded in any of those 29 series, and was only outshot from the field by an opposing center in one (and in that series, Wilt missed 20 shots, and his opposing center missed 107.) Not only that, but Wilt DRAMATICALLY reduced the FG% efficiency of his opposing centers in the vast majority of those 29 series, including reducing a prime KAJ by over 10% combined in their two post-season H2H series.

Meanwhile, Kobe personally LOST both the '04 and '08 Finals, while playing poorly in nearly all of them.
Chamberlain's FT% drops from 51.1 to 37.5 and his PPG drops from 30.1 to 18.6 from regular season to the finals.

2-4 in the Finals
13-5 series with HCA

[LAZERUSS]

MJ played the "Bad Boys" in four playoff series, and he scored considerably less, and shot considerably worse from the field in those four series (and the Pistons in '91 were just a shell of what they had been.)

And in his last three Finals, MJ shot .455, .427, and mind-boggling .415 from the field.

His team's were swept by Bird's Celtics in two straight series, and in the '87 sweeping playoff loss to Boston, he shot .417 from the field. And in the last game of the '86 first round series against Boston, and in a blowout loss, he scored 19 points on 8-18 shooting.

He certainly had his share of post-season choke jobs...

[Simple Jack]

Everyone tries to give "choking" a meaning that will mean the least harm for his favorite players. I don't like using this term for this exact reason, that its meaning is so vague.
Does the lack of effort mean that someone choke? Even if it doesn't, look at game 4. Plus, this might mean something worse, it may mean that this player is practically sabotaging his team, purposefully underperforming to prove something. Or that he quit. It definitely can't be seen in a positive or neutral light. It never had been with others who would sporadically have a suspiciously passive game.

I agree. I'm just trying to get the root of what a choke means. I mean in other applications in life - I don't see a lack of effort as choking. If you play 1 on 1 in your local park vs some scrub and you barely contest his shots; leave him open for jumpers; don't jump to try to even rebound...is that a choke? I think "quitting" or "lack of effort" is a better way of explaining that situation. No one would say you CHOKED...they'd probably ask why you didn't play hard, but I don't think choking would be on the list of adjectives to describe your play.

And of course it wouldn't be positive or even neutral. A lack of effort probably worse than choking.

Defining it is hard but an objective definition is clearly better than stans/haters subjectively assigning meaning to it without any consistency.

[LAZERUSS]

Chamberlain's FT% drops from 51.1 to 37.5 and his PPG drops from 30.1 to 18.6 from regular season to the finals.

2-4 in the Finals
13-5 series with HCA

Find me another "GOAT" candidate who...

in his first 67 playoff games COMBINED...AVERAGED 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, shot .515 from the field (and outshot the post-season league average by nearly 10% in the process), and most certainly had 8 bpg. Again...COMBINED. In fact, find me one who had ONE SERIES with those averages. Hell, you would be hard-pressed to find me one player who had ONE playoff GAME with a 30-27-5-8 .515 FG% statline.

And, for the record, Chamberlain had entire post-season's of 28.0 ppg, 29.3 ppg, 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg. He also had playoff series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.7 ppg. And against Russell and the vaunted Celtic dynasty, Chamberlain had post-seasons of 28-30, 29-28, 30-26, 33-26, and 30-30. Not to mention another series of 22-32-10 .556 FG% against Russell in '67, when his Sixers annihilated the eight-time defending and 60-21 Celtics in the EDF's.

Oh, and aside from MJ, find me another "GOAT" who had FOUR 50+ point playoff games, THREE of which came in "must-win" games (and one against Russell.) Add another 46-34 "must win" game against Russell, and a 45-27 "must-win" Finals game (on a surgically repaired knee BTW.)

Or that Wilt, with West shooting .325 from the floor, carried the '72 Lakers to a title in '72, with a 19-23-4 .600 series, en route to a Finals MVP.

Or that Wilt either outplayed, or downright destroyed his opposing centers in those HCA series losses.

And again, Chamberlain's DEFENSE is never brought up by the "Wilt-bashers" in these playoff discussions. A Chamberlain who faced a HOF starting center in 105 of his 160 post-season games (and a multiple All-Star in another 26), and that he was DRAMATICALLY lowering THEIR post-season numbers.