Why Do People Treat Reggie Miller Like He's a Legend?

[atljonesbro]

The guy is about a 19/3/3 player. Not that special. Sure he's really clutch but so is Joe Johnson and Johnson put up similar numbers. Theoretically he should be a slightly better Joe Johnson.

[IncarceratedBob]

Without Spike Lee Reggie would be nothing, shit his sister was a better player than he was.

[Akrazotile]

The guy is about a 19/3/3 player. Not that special. Sure he's really clutch but so is Joe Johnson and Johnson put up similar numbers. Theoretically he should be a slightly better Joe Johnson.



Never compare Joe Johnson to Reggie Miller again

[atljonesbro]

Never compare Joe Johnson to Reggie Miller again
They even had identical peaks. both 25/4/4

[zoom17]

They even had identical peaks. both 25/4/4

:facepalm

[oarabbus]

He was a stone cold killer

[Akrazotile]

They even had identical peaks. both 25/4/4


Game isnt played in the box score

[Milbuck]

Because he is?

[Crown&Coke]

when do people talk about Reggie Miller? Other than gifs of MJ trying to pull his face off?

[SpecialQue]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/6e836683069d1453bbfca9be046dde8d/tumblr_mx8kxfarsv1rhl4zuo1_500.jpg

[jzek]

He's 2nd in the league in 3s made.

Do you know how many ppl have played in the NBA? He's beaten ALL of them but one guy. If you can't grasp how big that accomplishment is then you are beyond dumb.

[IncarceratedBob]

He's 2nd in the league in 3s made.

Do you know how many ppl have played in the NBA? He's beaten ALL of them but one guy. If you can't grasp how big that accomplishment is then you are beyond dumb.
He's also shot the 2nd most in NBA history lol, there are more than a handful of players who would have made more than Reggie given the attempts

[SexSymbol]

Drazen Petrovic is incredibly overrated too, obviously for being dead.
None of Drazen or Reggie should even sniff the hall of fame

[SilkkTheShocker]

Because he played on NBA ON NBC!!!!

[oarabbus]

Drazen Petrovic is incredibly overrated too, obviously for being dead.
None of Drazen or Reggie should even sniff the hall of fame


Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh



have you seen some of the people indicted into the HoF?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Because he's one of the clutchest players to ever live? Reggie would look you in the eye while jamming an icepick through your lung.

[Jailblazers7]

Game isnt played in the box score

The box score doesn't even favor Joe. Dude averaged like 3 more mpg and 5 more shots in a season where he only played 57 games to get the same stats as Reggie. Btw, Reggie did it in 82 games in his 3rd season.

[tmacattack33]

He mighta been the best shooter ever.

But yes, he got more notoriety than what was deserved. "Everyone and their momma" knew who Reggie was by the late 90's. Probably due to the matchups vs the bulls and Knicks . It would not be a stretch to say that without mj and spike lee, Reggie might not have been so popular and so he might have never became a household name and gotten his TNT job so easily.

[RR#9]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Cq8OS7lexQ

Not many players that get this type of farewell at the end of their careers. Very respected player plus being born clutch and obv an amazing 3 point shooter.

[hawksdogsbraves]

1. Because he had some really high profile moments against the Knicks

2. Because he's still very much in the public eye.

When Tim Duncan retires in a couple years nobody will talk about him, but Charles Barkley will still be one of the most popular (ex)basketball players in the world despite being an inferior player.

[sportjames23]

1. Because he had some really high profile moments against the Knicks

2. Because he's still very much in the public eye.

When Tim Duncan retires in a couple years nobody will talk about him, but Charles Barkley will still be one of the most popular (ex)basketball players in the world despite being an inferior player.


You never saw Charles play, I see.

[Dro]

OP really hates the Pacers....All he does is talk negatively about the Pacers in every thread. Aren't you a Hawks fan? I could understand a Heat or Knick fan doing this stuff...Anyway..do a forum search..Reggie has been discussed a million times and I know you've been here long enough to have read those threads so I don't see how this one will change your mind..:confusedshrug:

[RedBlackAttack]

Even if you are just looking at statistics and not taking into account actually watching the guy and all of his big moments, he was a pretty rare kind of player.

A 6-foot-7 shooting guard who averaged 20+ points on 50+% shooting from the field. Putting up that kind of FG% as primarily a jumpshooter is insane. If you just look at his 3PT%, you're not going to be totally blown away. But, his jumper was silky smooth from anywhere on the floor.

His TS% was above 60% in 13 of his 18 seasons.

http://i61.tinypic.com/vfuy5t.jpg

That's insane consistency. Steve Nash is the only guy in the league who can come close to matching that, and even he hasn't done it 13 times.

Additionally, as you probably could have guessed, no guards in today's NBA are even close to Reggie's efficiency in that respect. Scoring 23 points per game on .650 TS%? No one even close to that. The closest is James Harden at .617.

Never dipping below 50% on his eFG% is also obviously a sign of the kind of consistent, efficient shooter he was.

He was a special player. Anyone who watched him in his prime knows that. The numbers aren't necessary to validate what we saw with our own two eyes, but they're there if you look hard enough.

Whether he's a "legend"? Now we're just getting into semantics. He had numerous legendary performances, I can tell you that.

[ILLsmak]

He mighta been the best shooter ever.

But yes, he got more notoriety than what was deserved. "Everyone and their momma" knew who Reggie was by the late 90's. Probably due to the matchups vs the bulls and Knicks . It would not be a stretch to say that without mj and spike lee, Reggie might not have been so popular and so he might have never became a household name and gotten his TNT job so easily.

Well, if there is a player who is mediocre but somehow drops 40 every single time his team plays a nationally televised game, then it makes sense that he would be remembered more than a player who only had good games when nobody was watching.

Same with Reggie (altho he was obviously not mediocre), you go in on two of the biggest teams (doesn't matter if it's Bulls or Knicks... imagine he did it against any teams, just on the biggest stages vs great comp), and people are gonna remember you.

It almost sounds like you're trying to give the Bulls and Knicks credit for being shit on by Reggie on numerous occasions.

-Smak

[hawksdogsbraves]

You never saw Charles play, I see.

Well I know Chuck was a great player and a hall of famer, but so are a lot of guys, even guys from the same era and position like Malone or Ewing, and we don't talk about them much on here. Barkley gets brought up so much because he's the most popular cast member of the most popular NBA show. Hell, he has more ad deals than anybody in the league outside of LeBron.

Reggie is on the A team announcing crew for TNT, so obviously he's more in the spotlight than say, Clyde Drexler, who was a vastly superior player at the same position at the same time.

[Bob Dole]

One of the most overrated players of all time. James Harden & steph curry are better right now than he was at any point in his career.

Border line all star most years and only made like 4 or 5

I laugh at the thought of him being a legend. Amazing what a few highlights can do for you.

[pmj]

Even if you are just looking at statistics and not taking into account actually watching the guy and all of his big moments, he was a pretty rare kind of player.

A 6-foot-7 shooting guard who averaged 20+ points on 50+% shooting from the field. Putting up that kind of FG% as primarily a jumpshooter is insane. If you just look at his 3PT%, you're not going to be totally blown away. But, his jumper was silky smooth from anywhere on the floor.

His TS% was above 60% in 13 of his 18 seasons.

http://i61.tinypic.com/vfuy5t.jpg

That's insane consistency. Steve Nash is the only guy in the league who can come close to matching that, and even he hasn't done it 13 times.

Additionally, as you probably could have guessed, no guards in today's NBA are even close to Reggie's efficiency in that respect. Scoring 23 points per game on .650 TS%? No one even close to that. The closest is James Harden at .617.

Never dipping below 50% on his eFG% is also obviously a sign of the kind of consistent, efficient shooter he was.

He was a special player. Anyone who watched him in his prime knows that. The numbers aren't necessary to validate what we saw with our own two eyes, but they're there if you look hard enough.

Whether he's a "legend"? Now we're just getting into semantics. He had numerous legendary performances, I can tell you that.

He still doesn't have many all-nba picks or all stars comparatively either, so it's hard to say people who saw his prime think he's a legend either. I caught the tail end and I never did anyway.

[ProfessorMurder]

He had some incredible moments, incredible playoff moments, he was loyal, and was one of the best shooters ever... He's not an MJ level superstar, but he's deserving of the love he gets.

[D.J.]

Reggie is arguably the clutchest player not named Jordan or Bird. He had ice in his veins. He gave Spike Lee 90% of the gray hairs he currently has.

[Soundwave]

Because he had some incredibly epic playoff performances, is one of the greatest 3 point shooters ever, etc.

[Dro]

Even if you are just looking at statistics and not taking into account actually watching the guy and all of his big moments, he was a pretty rare kind of player.

A 6-foot-7 shooting guard who averaged 20+ points on 50+% shooting from the field. Putting up that kind of FG% as primarily a jumpshooter is insane. If you just look at his 3PT%, you're not going to be totally blown away. But, his jumper was silky smooth from anywhere on the floor.

His TS% was above 60% in 13 of his 18 seasons.

http://i61.tinypic.com/vfuy5t.jpg

That's insane consistency. Steve Nash is the only guy in the league who can come close to matching that, and even he hasn't done it 13 times.

Additionally, as you probably could have guessed, no guards in today's NBA are even close to Reggie's efficiency in that respect. Scoring 23 points per game on .650 TS%? No one even close to that. The closest is James Harden at .617.

Never dipping below 50% on his eFG% is also obviously a sign of the kind of consistent, efficient shooter he was.

He was a special player. Anyone who watched him in his prime knows that. The numbers aren't necessary to validate what we saw with our own two eyes, but they're there if you look hard enough.

Whether he's a "legend"? Now we're just getting into semantics. He had numerous legendary performances, I can tell you that.
Honestly though, this should end the discussion.....I saw his entire career and it always felt like he just never shot enough...

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

He isnt even better than Manu Ginobli:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
The SGs in the 90s sucked after MJ and Glide

Look at the 2000s way more stacked

[mentallooser]

Because his contemporaries feel he's a legend?

[RedBlackAttack]

He still doesn't have many all-nba picks or all stars comparatively either, so it's hard to say people who saw his prime think he's a legend either. I caught the tail end and I never did anyway.
"Legend" is such an arbitrary title. Like I said, he was the catalyst in more than one legendary NBA moment. Doesn't that alone make him a "legend" of sorts?

He also had a successful career, despite not winning a championship. The guy was the best player on a team who went to the playoffs pretty much every year (15 times), went to the ECF 6 times and the Finals once... And that included giving Jordan's Bulls everything they could handle in a seven game series in '98.

Throw in the fact that he chose to stay in Indiana for his entire 18-year career, and yeah... I think he's remembered just about right.

All-Star and All-NBA appearances aren't the end-all, be-all, especially when a guy is at his statistical peak during the same era as Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, John Stockton, Clyde Drexler and Kevin Johnson.

That left guys like Reggie, Mark Price and Joe Dumars fighting it out for the last spot on the All-NBA Team.

Later, Magic and Dumars were replaced by guys like Gary Payton, Tim Hardaway, Penny Hardaway, Mitch Richmond...

Getting a guard spot on the All-NBA Team in those days meant having to be basically a HOF worthy player (which Reggie turned out to be). There are only so many spots to go around.

Isiah Thomas had the same problem Reggie did... he only had a handful of All-NBA appearances too, because he played in a stacked era for both points and SGs.

[bizil]

When u think great shooters who are also great scorers, u think guys like Reggie, Bird, Durant, Dirk, West, Ray Allen, and Nash. I actually think over time Reggie played too much of sniper role instead of mixing it up like the other guys I named. Earlier in his career, Miller mixed it up more and was putting up 25 a night. I think many look at his season scoring numbers and hold that against him. But he's still scored more career points than any guards except MJ, Kobe, and Big O. And he has some of the most iconic playoff moments ever. Plus if u needed a three pointer to win a game, Reggie might be the guy HISTORICALLY u would have take that shot. Reggie is EASILY legend material!!

[Trentknicks]

Reggie is arguably the clutchest player not named Jordan or Bird. He had ice in his veins. He gave Spike Lee 90% of the gray hairs he currently has.
Agreed, losing to the Knicks in 94 with a 3-2 lead with the next game in Indiana or losing as a 2 seed to an 8 seed Knicks really showed how clutch he was. He was a pretty clutch player, but let's not put him up in the ridiculously elite tier just because you got a hard on watching his highlights vs the Knicks in 95.

[oh the horror]

The responses in this thread are cringe worthy.

This has to be the dumbest basketball forum on the internet. Hands down.

[Just2McFly]

Reggie is arguably the clutchest player not named Jordan or Bird. He had ice in his veins. He gave Spike Lee 90% of the gray hairs he currently has.
oh man i cant take some of this stuff seriously

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The responses in this thread are cringe worthy.

This has to be the dumbest basketball forum on the internet. Hands down.

What DONT you agree with?

[D.J.]

oh man i cant take some of this stuff seriously


Name some players other than Jordan or Bird that were more clutch than Reggie, especially in the postseason. I'll wait...

[kurple]

He's also shot the 2nd most in NBA history lol, there are more than a handful of players who would have made more than Reggie given the attempts
why werent they given more attempts?

[D.J.]

Agreed, losing to the Knicks in 94 with a 3-2 lead with the next game in Indiana or losing as a 2 seed to an 8 seed Knicks really showed how clutch he was. He was a pretty clutch player, but let's not put him up in the ridiculously elite tier just because you got a hard on watching his highlights vs the Knicks in 95.


Says the Knicks fan. Jordan was subpar against the Magic in '95 to say the least. He played piss poor against Seattle in '96 with Payton. Wasn't all that great against Indy in '98 either. Game 5 in '89(biggest game of his career at that point), we won't discuss. And this is the GOAT. Even the GOAT is human.

[AnaheimLakers24]

get him off tnt

[Clyde]

The guy is about a 19/3/3 player. Not that special. Sure he's really clutch but so is Joe Johnson and Johnson put up similar numbers. Theoretically he should be a slightly better Joe Johnson.

You are ****ing Stupid.

[Trentknicks]

Says the Knicks fan. Jordan was subpar against the Magic in '95 to say the least. He played piss poor against Seattle in '96 with Payton. Wasn't all that great against Indy in '98 either. Game 5 in '89(biggest game of his career at that point), we won't discuss. And this is the GOAT. Even the GOAT is human.
If you re-watch the 1999 Knicks Pacers series, then you'd see there were several games were Miller could have won the game but missed the shot or had it blocked. But continue to talk about other players.

[Reggie43]

The guy is about a 19/3/3 player. Not that special. Sure he's really clutch but so is Joe Johnson and Johnson put up similar numbers. Theoretically he should be a slightly better Joe Johnson.

Playoffs Clutch>>>Regular Season Clutch

Thus

Reggie Miller>>>Joe Johnson

[D.J.]

If you re-watch the 1999 Knicks Pacers series, then you'd see there were several games were Miller could have won the game but missed the shot or had it blocked. But continue to talk about other players.


:oldlol: Can't even refute anything I said. Michael Jordan missed shots where he could have won the game too. I guess he's not that clutch either then.

[Akrazotile]

He mighta been the best shooter ever.

But yes, he got more notoriety than what was deserved. "Everyone and their momma" knew who Reggie was by the late 90's. Probably due to the matchups vs the bulls and Knicks . It would not be a stretch to say that without mj and spike lee, Reggie might not have been so popular and so he might have never became a household name and gotten his TNT job so easily.


The reality is IMO if jordan or bird had gone to crap franchises theyd have ended up just remembered along the lines of Oscar, Barkley, and other guys who are tiered lower ONLY because of a lack of team achievement.


Circumstance factors into EVERY players legacy. Im not sure why it bothers people that this is true of Reggie as well.

[eliteballer]

Reggie is legendary. His impact was greater than his stats. He's one of the best shooters ever. Look at what his teams did in the playoffs from 94-00. Some legendary series and contending teams.

[houston]

dude really was a choke artist though

[ThePhantomCreep]

He's also shot the 2nd most in NBA history lol, there are more than a handful of players who would have made more than Reggie given the attempts
This one is a true idiot.

[Round Mound]

Well I know Chuck was a great player and a hall of famer, but so are a lot of guys, even guys from the same era and position like Malone or Ewing, and we don't talk about them much on here. Barkley gets brought up so much because he's the most popular cast member of the most popular NBA show. Hell, he has more ad deals than anybody in the league outside of LeBron.

Reggie is on the A team announcing crew for TNT, so obviously he's more in the spotlight than say, Clyde Drexler, who was a vastly superior player at the same position at the same time.

[B]:no: I Can See How You Never Saw Charles Play in his Prime and Peak: Back in The Late 80s and Early 90s (Chuck

[dreamwarrior]

http://i61.tinypic.com/1zc1kpj.png

If Reggie had the same 31.07 scoring opportunities per game as Michael Jordan, he'd have scored 32ppg and is second only to Ray Allen who would've scored 32.4ppg.

[tontoz]

Miller has a career TS% of 61.4%. Feel free to list all the 2s with a career TS of 60% or better.

[OhNoTimNoSho]

I hate this forum

[Bob Dole]

http://i61.tinypic.com/1zc1kpj.png

If Reggie had the same 31.07 scoring opportunities per game as Michael Jordan, he'd have scored 32ppg and is second only to Ray Allen who would've scored 32.4ppg.

You are an idiot. Theres a reason why he didn't have as many scoring opportunities and its not because his teammates wouldnt pass him the ball.

He wasnt good enough to take that volume of shots on any team that wanted to contend. Simple as that.

[The Iron Sheik]

he's well respected but no basketball involved person thinks he's a legend as an overall player. at least not the people around him when he played. he's just known for being a really great shooter (even with his awful form)

he put up the best numbers on his teams but people weren't talking about him being the most important piece. and he wasn't being mentioned alongside guys like jordan, malone, barkley, shaq, magic and even pippen when it came to true impact on a game. i mean, if he wasn't being run off screens then there was almost nothing he could do for you.

[ralph_i_el]

They even had identical peaks. both 25/4/4
oh I like those stats there bro. Good stuff

195/3/27 look i can type numbers with no context too!

[Ne 1]

I honestly think most people are just being nostalgic. As a player, he was so limited. Couldn't rebound, couldn't defend, couldn't create his own shot off the dribble (other than a step-back), didn't drive and wasn't an exceptional scorer. Hell, he was a "shooter" with no mid-range game. All of that "clutch" was done versus one team, (one series in particular) that they seldom won against.

Miller is a prime example of the power of "clutch" and New York City. If he doesn't have that legendary game against the Knicks (they lost the series by the way) he's not looked upon in the same way.

He's living off the whole "he killed the Knicks" and Spike Lee thing, and the sad part is I guarantee if you ask 10 people who won that series at least 7 out of 10 will say the Pacers.

In other words, he gained his recognition through famous clutch buckets and through the Pacers bruising playoff battles against the Knicks. He had very little individual accomplishments.

Looking at accomplishments, here is Reggie Miller:

All NBA Teams- 3 times on the 3rd team
5x All-Star
Top 10 in MVP voting: none (13th and 16th were his highest)
2nd All-Time leader in 3 pointers made

[atljonesbro]

I honestly think most people are just being nostalgic. As a player, he was so limited. Couldn't rebound, couldn't defend, couldn't create his own shot off the dribble (other than a step-back), didn't drive and wasn't an exceptional scorer. Hell, he was a "shooter" with no mid-range game. All of that "clutch" was done versus one team, (one series in particular) that they seldom won against.

Miller is a prime example of the power of "clutch" and New York City. If he doesn't have that legendary game against the Knicks (they lost the series by the way) he's not looked upon in the same way.

He's living off the whole "he killed the Knicks" and Spike Lee thing, and the sad part is I guarantee if you ask 10 people who won that series at least 7 out of 10 will say the Pacers.

In other words, he gained his recognition through famous clutch buckets and through the Pacers bruising playoff battles against the Knicks. He had very little individual accomplishments.

Looking at accomplishments, here is Reggie Miller:

All NBA Teams- 3 times on the 3rd team
5x All-Star
Top 10 in MVP voting: none (13th and 16th were his highest)
2nd All-Time leader in 3 pointers made
Great post. I agree with a lot of what is said. Seems like people think so highly of him due to a couple clutch shots and his on court personality. Not really the fact he was that incredible of a player. Good indeed, but no where near the level of recognition he deserves at all. Just a solid scorer for his era realistically.

[Just2McFly]

Name some players other than Jordan or Bird that were more clutch than Reggie, especially in the postseason. I'll wait...
Wade /LeBron /Kobe /Melo /Iverson /Dirk /Pierce /Allen /Horry /Fisher.... Did you want guys that could carry you down the stretch or big shot makers or both? You are reaching with this Reggie shit.

[pmj]

"Legend" is such an arbitrary title. Like I said, he was the catalyst in more than one legendary NBA moment. Doesn't that alone make him a "legend" of sorts?

He also had a successful career, despite not winning a championship. The guy was the best player on a team who went to the playoffs pretty much every year (15 times), went to the ECF 6 times and the Finals once... And that included giving Jordan's Bulls everything they could handle in a seven game series in '98.

Throw in the fact that he chose to stay in Indiana for his entire 18-year career, and yeah... I think he's remembered just about right.

All-Star and All-NBA appearances aren't the end-all, be-all, especially when a guy is at his statistical peak during the same era as Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, John Stockton, Clyde Drexler and Kevin Johnson.

That left guys like Reggie, Mark Price and Joe Dumars fighting it out for the last spot on the All-NBA Team.

Later, Magic and Dumars were replaced by guys like Gary Payton, Tim Hardaway, Penny Hardaway, Mitch Richmond...

Getting a guard spot on the All-NBA Team in those days meant having to be basically a HOF worthy player (which Reggie turned out to be). There are only so many spots to go around.

Isiah Thomas had the same problem Reggie did... he only had a handful of All-NBA appearances too, because he played in a stacked era for both points and SGs.

My point was, those second group of guys (and others) you mentioned were considered better than him at the time, some had better stats & awards, but are not talked about like Reggie is now. I think a lot of it just has to do with Reggie's few moments that stand out and not really much else.

[Rik Smits' Hair]

Reggie is a legend here in Indy. I could give a damn what the rest of the uninformed posters on this site think.

[coin24]

Wade /LeBron /Kobe /Melo /Iverson /Dirk /Pierce /Allen /Horry /Fisher.... Did you want guys that could carry you down the stretch or big shot makers or both? You are reaching with this Reggie shit.

:roll: :roll: good one..
Bran more clutch than reggie?! really?
You must work at espn

[Reggie43]

I honestly think most people are just being nostalgic. As a player, he was so limited. Couldn't rebound, couldn't defend, couldn't create his own shot off the dribble (other than a step-back), didn't drive and wasn't an exceptional scorer. Hell, he was a "shooter" with no mid-range game. All of that "clutch" was done versus one team, (one series in particular) that they seldom won against.

Miller is a prime example of the power of "clutch" and New York City. If he doesn't have that legendary game against the Knicks (they lost the series by the way) he's not looked upon in the same way.

He's living off the whole "he killed the Knicks" and Spike Lee thing, and the sad part is I guarantee if you ask 10 people who won that series at least 7 out of 10 will say the Pacers.

In other words, he gained his recognition through famous clutch buckets and through the Pacers bruising playoff battles against the Knicks. He had very little individual accomplishments.

Looking at accomplishments, here is Reggie Miller:

All NBA Teams- 3 times on the 3rd team
5x All-Star
Top 10 in MVP voting: none (13th and 16th were his highest)
2nd All-Time leader in 3 pointers made

With all the limitations that you described in Millers game explain to me how such a player could achieve legendary efficiency while scoring 25 points a night in his prime? A player who according to you has no midrange game, couldnt drive, couldnt dribble should be very easy to defend yet he still averaged those numbers?

You only describe a single series where the Knicks won when in reality they met six times in the playoffs, the teams splitting the games 3 wins apiece. Miller had his share of bad games and great performances which you conveniently failed to mention, instead implying that was the only series he gained recognition for.

The Pacers had great battles with the Magic with Shaq and Penny, Sixers with Iverson, Nets with Kidd and that legendary battle with Jordans Bulls, yet you think all his popularity is about the Knicks? To me that Bulls series are the games that validated how good he was because he was able to outperform the greatest of all time in the clutch and steal a few games even though they lost the series

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Wade /LeBron /Kobe /Melo /Iverson /Dirk /Pierce /Allen /Horry /Fisher.... Did you want guys that could carry you down the stretch or big shot makers or both? You are reaching with this Reggie shit.

In the postseason? Horry and maybe Allen, but not those other guys. Not the manner Reggie did it in.

[Dro]

If you re-watch the 1999 Knicks Pacers series, then you'd see there were several games were Miller could have won the game but missed the shot or had it blocked. But continue to talk about other players.
Why don't you go back and check 94'95, 98'99'2000 while you're pointing out one series where a 34-35 year old Reggie wasn't able to come through..If thats all you got, then Reggie must be the 3rd most clutch player in history...

[STATUTORY]

it's only knicks fans ironically that make him out to be a legend
he's a ray allen type

[Dro]

Miller has a career TS% of 61.4%. Feel free to list all the 2s with a career TS of 60% or better.
It has been broken down already but ish is full of children who have only seen Pacers/Knicks highlights and act like he never had any other clutch moments:applause:

[Dro]

he's well respected but no basketball involved person thinks he's a legend as an overall player. at least not the people around him when he played. he's just known for being a really great shooter (even with his awful form)

he put up the best numbers on his teams but people weren't talking about him being the most important piece. and he wasn't being mentioned alongside guys like jordan, malone, barkley, shaq, magic and even pippen when it came to true impact on a game. i mean, if he wasn't being run off screens then there was almost nothing he could do for you.
Again, spoken like someone who never saw Reggie play before 1993....

[The Iron Sheik]

Again, spoken like someone who never saw Reggie play before 1993....

it's like people here think every moment he had was like that series against chicago in 98 (in which he lost). he was always a cog in an offense, and it wasn't because he was just choosing to be that way. he found something he was good at and perfected it.

sure, he had plays like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIdK1CAeUSc) every once in awhile. but it wasn't like he was known for that.

is he like a top 100 player of all time? sure. no doubt about it.

is he one of the best shooters ever? ubdoubtedly

but for people here to act like he's on the levels of guys like ray allen, d wade, kobe, or even iverson as a player is silly. he wasn't even looked at in that vein when he was playing...during his best years. why should it be any different now?

[jstern]

Always in the playoff and ultra clutch.

[sportjames23]

:roll: :roll: good one..
Bran more clutch than reggie?! really?
You must work at espn


LOL, I didn't catch that at first. Bron stans think they're slick. :oldlol:

[Dro]

My point was, those second group of guys (and others) you mentioned were considered better than him at the time, some had better stats & awards, but are not talked about like Reggie is now. I think a lot of it just has to do with Reggie's few moments that stand out and not really much else.
People just dont' have a clue what they are talking about...Its like you guys only watched the 94 and 95 Knicks series..Oh and the 98 Bulls series..Newsflash, he had more clutch moments than those...

[Dro]

it's like people here think every moment he had was like that series against chicago in 98 (in which he lost). he was always a cog in an offense, and it wasn't because he was just choosing to be that way. he found something he was good at and perfected it.

sure, he had plays like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIdK1CAeUSc) every once in awhile. but it wasn't like he was known for that.

is he like a top 100 player of all time? sure. no doubt about it.

is he one of the best shooters ever? ubdoubtedly

but for people here to act like he's on the levels of guys like ray allen, d wade, kobe, or even iverson as a player is silly. he wasn't even looked at in that vein when he was playing...during his best years. why should it be any different now?
Nobody anywhere on this forum has said this that I've seen..Its like you guys insert stuff to support your own arguments. "Legend" has been defined and put in context throughout this thread...Some people just choose to ignore it. Also, Reggie vs. Ray Allen has been debated before..Not everyone thinks Ray Ray ranks higher than him. In fact, it was split pretty much down the middle...We're talking impact on the game, not who's the better all around player which obviously WAS Ray Allen he was younger...This version of Ray Allen doesn't do anything but shoot 3's just like people say Reggie did when the fact is they BOTH were more all around players when they were younger, Ray obviously being a better ball handler and more athletic...

[Reggie43]

it's like people here think every moment he had was like that series against chicago in 98 (in which he lost). he was always a cog in an offense, and it wasn't because he was just choosing to be that way. he found something he was good at and perfected it.

sure, he had plays like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIdK1CAeUSc) every once in awhile. but it wasn't like he was known for that.

is he like a top 100 player of all time? sure. no doubt about it.

is he one of the best shooters ever? ubdoubtedly

but for people here to act like he's on the levels of guys like ray allen, d wade, kobe, or even iverson as a player is silly. he wasn't even looked at in that vein when he was playing...during his best years. why should it be any different now?

Funny thing about your "list" of players that are above him is that all of them have been outplayed by Miller in the playoffs except maybe for dwade because Reggie was nearing 40 at the time. Just shows you that being the more "skilled" player is not a guarantee for wins especially in the playoffs.

[jstern]

1. Because he had some really high profile moments against the Knicks

2. Because he's still very much in the public eye.

When Tim Duncan retires in a couple years nobody will talk about him, but Charles Barkley will still be one of the most popular (ex)basketball players in the world despite being an inferior player.

I don't agree with this. I always see teens who never saw Barkley play associate him as the fat guy on Inside the NBA. They don't see him as a legend, and I sometimes read comments from teens on YouTube who are shocked by Barkley's play.

The only person that I think has gotten overrated from post career exposure is Steve Kerr. Some kids think he was a star player.

[The Iron Sheik]

Funny thing about your "list" of players that are above him is that all of them have been outplayed by Miller in the playoffs except maybe for dwade because Reggie was nearing 40 at the time. Just shows you that being the more "skilled" player is not a guarantee for wins especially in the playoffs.

reggie was always a good player on good teams. he was like melo on the nuggets: good player but not the main component to their success.

when it comes to just playing basketball, he's not better than any of the guys i mentioned.

[MavsSuperFan]

Because moments matter. Success in pressure situations matter.

[Reggie43]

reggie was always a good player on good teams. he was like melo on the nuggets: good player but not the main component to their success.

when it comes to just playing basketball, he's not better than any of the guys i mentioned.

Then explain to me how most of the players you listed also got outperformed statswise on those matchups and aside from kobe (because of Shaq averaging a near 40 20) they all ended up losing?

[jstern]

Kobe said that Miller has been the hardest player he's ever had to guard.

But non the less. I really don't see much talk about Reggie Miller. I've never seen anyone say he was better or in the same level as Drexler. I find these threads really weird, where the OP makes a big deal about something going on in his head.

[The Iron Sheik]

Then explain to me how most of the players you listed also got outperformed statswise on those matchups and aside from kobe (because of Shaq averaging a near 40 20) they all ended up losing?

kobe and reggie only played 1 series against each other and 20 year old kobe missed 1 game and barely played in another because of an ankle injury.

as far as iverson, like i said reggie played on good teams. they weren't great necessarily when his teams beat iverson in the postseason, but they were better than what iverson had.

but i'm talking about as far as being players. match up what each guy can do on the basketball court, and well he does it with reggie miller, and they come out on top. the only thing reggie miller does better than any of those guys (besides ray) is shoot. and that's catch and shooting. he wasn't better than ray at breaking his man down off the dribble and pulling up.

he ran off screens better than kobe does, but not better than iverson.

outside of 3 point shooting and screen curling, at what aspect of basketball is reggie miller better at than kobe? reggie himself would tell you nothing

my bad i forgot free throw shooting. he's better than kobe at that, but it's inconsequential since kobe is also a good free throw shooter.

[SexSymbol]

Ray Allen is more clutch than him (much more, specially in the PO) and has had a better career.
Kobe, Wade, MJ, West, Glide, Sam Jones, Hal Greer, Iverson are better than him, no doubt.
Then there's Sharman, David Thompson, Joe Dumars, Vince, T-mac, Pistol Pete, Sidney Moncrief, even Manu, Mitch Ritchmond who are on his level.
So depending on your bias level, he's somewhere in the 10-20 range for only SG's. That's not HOF worthy at all

[All Net]

People are judged what they do in the playoffs and he performed.

[Reggie43]

kobe and reggie only played 1 series against each other and 20 year old kobe missed 1 game and barely played in another because of an ankle injury.

as far as iverson, like i said reggie played on good teams. they weren't great necessarily when his teams beat iverson in the postseason, but they were better than what iverson had.

but i'm talking about as far as being players. match up what each guy can do on the basketball court, and well he does it with reggie miller, and they come out on top. the only thing reggie miller does better than any of those guys (besides ray) is shoot. and that's catch and shooting. he wasn't better than ray at breaking his man down off the dribble and pulling up.

he ran off screens better than kobe does, but not better than iverson.

outside of 3 point shooting and screen curling, at what aspect of basketball is reggie miller better at than kobe? reggie himself would tell you nothing

my bad i forgot free throw shooting. he's better than kobe at that, but it's inconsequential since kobe is also a good free throw shooter.

Truth is I agree that Kobe, Wade and Iverson were obviously better while Ray and Reggie are on the same level with the edge going to Miller for outplaying Allen head to head regular season and playoffs.

The one skill Miller was widely regarded as the master at by his peers and you think Iverson is better. Players like Rip Hamilton and Ray Allen to name a few even admitted to studying this part of his game and stealing his moves.

As for your original argument about that list of players very few people rank Miller on the level of Kobe, wade and iverson (including miller fans) while him and ray are arguable so I really dont know what you're talking about?

[The Iron Sheik]

Truth is I agree that Kobe, Wade and Iverson were obviously better while Ray and Reggie are on the same level with the edge going to Miller for outplaying Allen head to head regular season and playoffs.

The one skill Miller was widely regarded as the master at by his peers and you think Iverson is better. Players like Rip Hamilton and Ray Allen to name a few even admitted to studying this part of his game and stealing his moves.

As for your original argument about that list of players very few people rank Miller on the level of Kobe, wade and iverson (including miller fans) while him and ray are arguable so I really dont know what you're talking about?

i said iverson was better at off-ball movement because that's how iverson scored most of his points in philly. reggie was good at it too but iverson just produced more with it.

and reggie miller wasn't a better overall player than ray allen. they're pretty much even in shooting, and ray is better at everything else (dribbling, playmaking off the dribble, getting to the rim, defending).

but my original post was responding to the op. people today act like reggie was some superstar when he was playing. i was merely pointing out that he wasn't regarded as highly back then, as he wasn't even the most important guy on his own team, at least not to the extent where his teams' success hinged mostly on his shoulders. he's just become more revered as time has passed.

[Reggie43]

i said iverson was better at off-ball movement because that's how iverson scored most of his points in philly. reggie was good at it too but iverson just produced more with it.

and reggie miller wasn't a better overall player than ray allen. they're pretty much even in shooting, and ray is better at everything else (dribbling, playmaking off the dribble, getting to the rim, defending).

but my original post was responding to the op. people today act like reggie was some superstar when he was playing. i was merely pointing out that he wasn't regarded as highly back then, as he wasn't even the most important guy on his own team, at least not to the extent where his teams' success hinged mostly on his shoulders. he's just become more revered as time has passed.

What I meant was the argument between us, when I responded about your list.

Regarding the offball movement I could say the same for Miller because that was also his main source of points and produced with it much more efficiently.

Ray Allen being more skilled doesnt automatically make him the better player. Whats the use of all those skills when at the end of the day you lose and get outplayed by the less skilled but more effective and efficient player? Do you still state the other player is still better because he could dribble all over the court?

Miller is highly regarded not because of his stats but mainly because of his playoff performances, the numerous clutch shots that he has taken and made. After the New York series he became a highly regarded clutch performer.

Statswise he was the best Pacer player but guys like Rik Smits, Mark Jackson, Mckey and the Davis brothers were equally important to the teams success

[sd3035]

0 rings

0 MVps

0 time all Nba 1st team

0 time 2nd team

0 times leading the league in anything aside from FT %

5 time all star in 18 seasons

50-40-90 season in 1994

Some clutch shots in the playoffs including the legendary finish against the Knicks.



Overall a decent player with some dramatic moments, but not a legend

[ItsMillerTime]

No wonder I don't post in this sh*t forum. You guys make my brain hurt.

[atljonesbro]

No wonder I don't post in this sh*t forum. You guys make my brain hurt.
Yeah bro. Judging by that great post you just made you're totally above it all. You've brought so much value to this thread.

[houston]

mitch richmond>>>>>>>>miller

[Iceman#44]

Very Good player with some classic playoff games

[D.J.]

mitch richmond>>>>>>>>miller


As far as being a complete player, no doubt. Mitch did have the unfortunate situation of being on crap teams basically his whole career. But when it comes to coming through the clutch, only a handful(maybe) were more clutch than Reggie. Dude had ice in his veins.

[tontoz]

Miller couldn't drive or create of the dribble but somehow had 2 straight seasons of over 7 foul shot attempts per game in a physical era. Anyone care to explain this?

















Didn't think so

[Just2McFly]

In the postseason? Horry and maybe Allen, but not those other guys. Not the manner Reggie did it in.
wtf did reggie do that all those other guys didnt?

[secund2nun]

Reggie is a typical overrated guard.

[plowking]

Reggie Miller is one of the most, if not THE most overrated players on this forum, and among general basketball fans.
You had players like Mitch Richmond and Latrell Sprewell who were undoubtedly better players during their day, and yet don't get nearly the talk that Reggie does.

If people actually sat down and looked at Reggie's career closely, they'd see he has a lot more "chokes" than he does successes. Look at just about any of the big playoff series' in his life, and you'd see he came up short most times than not. But you'll continually get people that ignore this, and bring up the NY shot, and his antics on the court that make him some lethal basketball clutch god...

He has built up this great perception, but its not entirely earned to the extent its gotten to.

[Reggie43]

How hard is it for people to understand that the reason some people rank Miller above the likes of Allen, Richmond, Sprewell, Jones, Houston and other players on that level is not because of the overall skills/stats but because of the Pacers constant playoff success with Miller as the teams franchise player. They might have not won a championship but they always made deep playoff runs with Miller delivering legendary performances.

I think it is safe to say that no player on the same level as Miller and even some players universally regarded as much better players would have replicated his playoff success given the same situation. Imagine Ray Allen against the 94/95 Knicks, Richmond against Shaq/Penny and the Magic, Sprewell against Jordans Bulls would any of these players fare any better than what Miller has done?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

wtf did reggie do that all those other guys didnt?

In crunchtime?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eOuUO0lif4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QIjRoM2Bqc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3Mp6-cFnOk

A lot of those guys were better players (Richmond > Miller), but down the stretch? Very few were as deadly.

[Meticode]

He stayed with this team for the whole career.

He's one of the greatest shooters of all time.

He's one of the clutchest shooters of all time.

No ring was ever coming to him while Jordan was in his prime, and by the time Jordan retired Miller was getting past his prime.

[The Iron Sheik]

Miller couldn't drive or create of the dribble but somehow had 2 straight seasons of over 7 foul shot attempts per game in a physical era. Anyone care to explain this?

















Didn't think so

lol how does kobe bryant average 7-8 free throws a game taking over 1/2 of his shots from outside the paint? How does kevin durant? it's not really that hard to understand how it's done. guys who slash to the rim aren't the only ones who know how to get to the free throw line. reggie was no exception. doesn't mean he was a consistent off the dribble creator. he just...wasn't.

[Fawker]

he never takes props for himself ever. always bigging up other sucky players.

[houston]

How hard is it for people to understand that the reason some people rank Miller above the likes of Allen, Richmond, Sprewell, Jones, Houston and other players on that level is not because of the overall skills/stats but because of the Pacers constant playoff success with Miller as the teams franchise player. They might have not won a championship but they always made deep playoff runs with Miller delivering legendary performances.

I think it is safe to say that no player on the same level as Miller and even some players universally regarded as much better players would have replicated his playoff success given the same situation. Imagine Ray Allen against the 94/95 Knicks, Richmond against Shaq/Penny and the Magic, Sprewell against Jordans Bulls would any of these players fare any better than what Miller has done?


yes they would fair better cause they better players. Richmond on that 94 Pacers at least make the Finals. We seen what Sprewell did without Pat Ewing on them Knicks team.

Miller 1 out of 5 in conference finals really and when he did make the Finals Jalen Rose was the team leading scorer.

[Reggie43]

yes they would fair better cause they better players. Richmond on that 94 Pacers at least make the Finals. We seen what Sprewell did without Pat Ewing on them Knicks team.

Miller 1 out of 5 in conference finals really and when he did make the Finals Jalen Rose was the team leading scorer.

:oldlol: at implying Sprewell would have done better against Jordans Bulls

You think Richmond makes the Finals In 94 against the Knicks? And this is based on what exactly? Regular season games?

Miller being 1 out 5 in the conference finals is a much better record than the players I listed as the main guy on their team and for your information Miller was the Pacers leading scorer in the Finals to the tune of 24.3 ppg. to Rose's 23ppg

[MiseryCityTexas]

I remember when Reggie Miller hit that game winning shot over michael jordan in the 98 semi finals of the nba play-offs. miller hit the game winning shot over jordan, and started celebrating as if he won the damned championship. the bulls still knocked the pacers out of the play-offs and later won the chip as we all know.

[D.J.]

Let's also not forget 37 year old Reggie going tic for tac with Kidd in a double OT elimination game. And this wasn't exactly prime Reggie either.

[Angel Face]

Well because he is. One of the clutchest players to ever play the game. Respect!

[hitmanyr2k]

I remember when Reggie Miller hit that game winning shot over michael jordan in the 98 semi finals of the nba play-offs. miller hit the game winning shot over jordan, and started celebrating as if he won the damned championship. the bulls still knocked the pacers out of the play-offs and later won the chip as we all know.

Everyone remembers that shot in Game 4 but never discuss the rest of the series where Reggie didn't really do much. Game 5 was a blowout for the Bulls. In elimination Game 6 Reggie couldn't hit jack sh** as the Pacers were carried by Smits who was on fire. Game 7 Reggie had a good first half but was a ghost in the 2nd half. He only took one shot in the 4th qtr and it was an airball.

[houston]

:oldlol: at implying Sprewell would have done better against Jordans Bulls

You think Richmond makes the Finals In 94 against the Knicks? And this is based on what exactly? Regular season games?

Miller being 1 out 5 in the conference finals is a much better record than the players I listed as the main guy on their team and for your information Miller was the Pacers leading scorer in the Finals to the tune of 24.3 ppg. to Rose's 23ppg


yea Reggie came up small in that Bulls series 17,2,2 on 42 % shooting. Come on man against those Knicks missing clutch free throws in that series. I was talking regular season Rose was leading scorer, had more assists and rebounds than him.

Reggie had all-star and defensive team players on that Pacers squad. Rock was a wayyyyyyy better player than Reggie. He was a more diverse scorer than him. Plus Reggie so clutch but he didn't win shit lol.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Pacers had the Knicks number in the mid 90s. The Knicks used to always worry about what Jordan and the Bulls were doing, yet the mid 90s Knicks couldn't even beat the Pacers.

[Straight_Ballin]

Screw the clutchness, the TS%, 3 pointers made.....Reggie Miller was the best trash talker in the history of the game. If you were off, Reggie would take you out of your game with his epic trash talk.

[Reggie43]

yea Reggie came up small in that Bulls series 17,2,2 on 42 % shooting. Come on man against those Knicks missing clutch free throws in that series. I was talking regular season Rose was leading scorer, had more assists and rebounds than him.

Reggie had all-star and defensive team players on that Pacers squad. Rock was a wayyyyyyy better player than Reggie. He was a more diverse scorer than him. Plus Reggie so clutch but he didn't win shit lol.

I guess you think Sprewell would have beaten Bulls then as you claimed that he would have done better?

Richmond being the better overall player hardly matters when he cant even will his teams to playoff berths, something Reggie has done playing in his last season at age 39 when most of his teammates were suspended because of the brawl.

THe only allstars they had while with the pacers is Smits and Dale Davis, which was a very generous selection considering he only averaged 10ppg 10rpg 1.2bpg

You state Finals then you claim you were talking about regular season?

Miller not winning it all is a testament to how good the 90s were in terms of competition. Heck I could name a few championship teams in the 2000 to present who wouldnt be close to winning anything in the 90s

[jstern]

One of the best Miller clutch play, to watch live is him dunking vs the Nets https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9995mivGaD8

He never dunks, so to watch that live, with his reputation for being clutch, it builds to it. Stepping it up so much that he actually dunked.

[houston]

I guess you think Sprewell would have beaten Bulls then as you claimed that he would have done better?

Richmond being the better overall player hardly matters when he cant even will his teams to playoff berths, something Reggie has done playing in his last season at age 39 when most of his teammates were suspended because of the brawl.

THe only allstars they had while with the pacers is Smits and Dale Davis, which was a very generous selection considering he only averaged 10ppg 10rpg 1.2bpg

You state Finals then you claim you were talking about regular season?

Miller not winning it all is a testament to how good the 90s were in terms of competition. Heck I could name a few championship teams in the 2000 to present who wouldnt be close to winning anything in the 90s


Miller wasn't just wasn't a good enough player to win as the "man". stop overrating the man. Giving props to man that comes up short really lol

[sportjames23]

Pacers had the Knicks number in the mid 90s. The Knicks used to always worry about what Jordan and the Bulls were doing, yet the mid 90s Knicks couldn't even beat the Pacers.


Um, the Knicks beat the Pacers in the playoffs more than the Pacers beat the Knicks in the 90s

[Reggie43]

Miller wasn't just wasn't a good enough player to win as the "man". stop overrating the man. Giving props to man that comes up short really lol

But Miller had a good enough "team" to win the championship as the "man" similar to when the 2004 Pistons did it and Billups being the FMVP.

Pacers in 94, 95 and 98 were legit championship contenders in my opinion.

So you still think Sprewell would have beaten the Bulls? :oldlol:

[Nick Young]

Natural born loser.

Zero rings amirite?

[L.A. Jazz]

its the NY media. because their Knicks cant win a chip, they blow up every little thing. e.g. "only a legend like Reggie Miller could beat the 90s Knicks". otherwise it would be pretty lame to loose against the Pacers led by Reggie and a team of roleplayers led by Hakkeem (guarded by the great Ewing).

so its not Reggies fault, but he should ride it for his benefit.

[Bosnian Sajo]

Drazen Petrovic is incredibly overrated too, obviously for being dead.
None of Drazen or Reggie should even sniff the hall of fame

Wooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, don't you ever mention Drazen's name again without showing some respect, son. Hall of Fame isn't just NBA btw, it's international ball and Euroleague too. He won gold for Jugo in 90 and silver for Croatia in 92 when his country was in the middle of a bloody war in the Balkans. And if you ever watched him play you would never question why he gets so much fame for the short amount of time he played in the NBA.


I hate my generation when it comes to sports, it's all about stats to yall.

[Kblaze8855]

Reggie Miller is a legend. There is no arguing that. What he isnt all time....and wasnt even near in his prime....is an elite player.

Legendary and great are not the same thing. Reggie was all NBA third team twice. Or three times. Not sure. In I think 14 or 15 years the coaches did not select him to be an all star(the fans never did). As has been said before...people decided he was a top player in retrospect. Somewhere around 2002 or 2003.

Plenty of guys ranked way way above him dont really get legendary status. Sprewell is all NBA first team in a season Reggie isnt even 3rd team. Reggie will live forever. Lot of guys who outplayed him on a regular basis will never be mentioned again.

Joe Dumars was all NBA second team while Reggie never was, was all NBa third team a couple times as well, and was an all star more times than Reggie sharing the same league and conference the entire time. And 5 of 6 of them were after the Badboys declined so you cant act like he was just riding a great team. Hes all D team multiple times, a better ball handler and passer than Reggie and while reggie shines as an offensive player....Dumars is a finals MVP in a series where he dropped 22/7, 33/6, 31/5, and 23/6 while having to spend time helping guard Magic Johnson(pre injury) after hed already worn himself out the previous series guarding Michael Jordan at the peak of his powers.

But Joe did not make a spectacle of himself. He didnt act like a jerk to fans(while losing when it counted) and he played both sides as a high level. He made huge shots that history forgets because it wasnt vs the Knicks with Spike Lee feuding with him. And he made bigger and clutcher plays than Reggie EVER did and nobody cares.

Game 3 of the 1990 finals Joe Dumars scores 18 straight points in the 3rd quarter to keep his team in a game the Lakers were starting to pull away in. End of game...up 1...Lakers have a shot to win it...

http://youtu.be/etFAuDqIsj4?t=2m40s


Joe Dumars blocks the game winner and dives to save it to Bill Laimbeer. Wins the game. Had 31/5 that night.

Tell me...really...did Reggie Miller make a bigger play his entire career? Of course not. But nobody remembers defense.

Not that Joe wasnt a great offensive player...he had skills...

http://24.media.tumblr.com/ce4a2a33ab86a8c9b7e3545b1cc95e1c/tumblr_ms7fvoASrL1qcmnsoo2_r1_400.gif


http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/Michael%20Jordan/VS/Detroit%20Pistons/Joe%20Dumars/vs1.gif


He had the big nights pouring it on vs legends thought greater than him:



43 vs the same Knicks defense Reggie torched:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8sHh20vNUQ

42 points out dueling Nique who had 38:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frI0ZMG-_Ok

41 vs the same Magic Reggie knocked out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7dR6A39MdM


But ISH ranks its top guards ever Dumars is well behind Reggie.

All you can really say to knock Joe is that a couple of his teams were awful when rebuilding(more than balanced by being a 2 time champ and finals MVP). You cant evaluate his basketball playing and find anything lacking.

As a basketball player Reggie Miller is simply not the equal of Joe Dumars. As a legend...Joe Dumars will never get the respect Reggie does.

And its the same with a couple dozen other non elite guards at the least.

In that respect...Reggie is quite overrated....but he is still a legend.

Because legendary isnt just your skillset or status in the league ranking wise.

Pistol Pete is a legend the likes of which few can compare to. Bill Cunningham might have been a more effective player. All NBA first team. Doing like 25/12/5. Goes to the ABA(where he was the MVP over prime Dr.J). Philly goes 9-73 without him.

So...does he have a case to be compared as a basketball player? Sure.

As a legend?

Not really.

Just dont confuse the two and it saves some arguing.

[tontoz]

lol how does kobe bryant average 7-8 free throws a game taking over 1/2 of his shots from outside the paint? How does kevin durant? it's not really that hard to understand how it's done. guys who slash to the rim aren't the only ones who know how to get to the free throw line. reggie was no exception. doesn't mean he was a consistent off the dribble creator. he just...wasn't.


:wtf:

Because this era has different rules for perimeter players. The hand check is a foul. Rough hand checking was routine in Reggie's day.

Now a guy can drive right into a defender, flop and get a free pass to the foul line. Or just flail his arms after a shot. That is why Jamal Crawford has almost twice as many 4 point plays as Reggie, because he plays in a soft era.

There was no Bruce Bowen rule in Reggie's day. Now if a jump shooter lands on a defenders foot it is a foul.

Have you been asleep the last few years?

[Kblaze8855]

Reggie Miller was getting FTs off the rip through move and flopping 20 years ago. He wasnt one of the guys getting beat up and not getting calls. He would fall down like a bitch at the first chance he got. Hes probably the all time "How is that a foul on the D?!?!" leader just off kicking his legs out so he falls awkwardly.

Reason he didnt take many FTs is because he wasnt really that much of the focus for his team scoring wise. Reggie Miller was a one on one scorer till like 92. After that he was off the ball and mostly a decoy who would have big nights off making tough long jumpers.

He wasnt the type to draw legit fouls. He had a higher rate of "Thats bullshit..." fouls than anyone of his time.

[tontoz]

Reggie Miller was getting FTs off the rip through move and flopping 20 years ago. He wasnt one of the guys getting beat up and not getting calls. He would fall down like a bitch at the first chance he got. Hes probably the all time "How is that a foul on the D?!?!" leader just off kicking his legs out so he falls awkwardly.

Reason he didnt take many FTs is because he wasnt really that much of the focus for his team scoring wise. Reggie Miller was a one on one scorer till like 92. After that he was off the ball and mostly a decoy who would have big nights off making tough long jumpers.

He wasnt the type to draw legit fouls. He had a higher rate of "Thats bullshit..." fouls than anyone of his time.


Nowadays bullshit.... calls are the norm. The rules make it much easier to get to the line now, by a lot. The hand check and Bowen rules weren't around back then. Do you really think Jamal Crawford would have 40 4 point plays in that era?

And the fact is that Reggie did get to the line a lot for a 2. this year only 2 shooting guards are taking more than 6 fts per game. Miller's career average was 5.1 and he played until he was 40. He had back to back seasons taking over 7 fts per game.

Feel free to name all the shooting guards who had better scoring efficiency than Miller, from any era.

[Reggie43]

Reggie Miller is a legend. There is no arguing that. What he isnt all time....and wasnt even near in his prime....is an elite player.

Legendary and great are not the same thing. Reggie was all NBA third team twice. Or three times. Not sure. In I think 14 or 15 years the coaches did not select him to be an all star(the fans never did). As has been said before...people decided he was a top player in retrospect. Somewhere around 2002 or 2003.

Plenty of guys ranked way way above him dont really get legendary status. Sprewell is all NBA first team in a season Reggie isnt even 3rd team. Reggie will live forever. Lot of guys who outplayed him on a regular basis will never be mentioned again.

Joe Dumars was all NBA second team while Reggie never was, was all NBa third team a couple times as well, and was an all star more times than Reggie sharing the same league and conference the entire time. And 5 of 6 of them were after the Badboys declined so you cant act like he was just riding a great team. Hes all D team multiple times, a better ball handler and passer than Reggie and while reggie shines as an offensive player....Dumars is a finals MVP in a series where he dropped 22/7, 33/6, 31/5, and 23/6 while having to spend time helping guard Magic Johnson(pre injury) after hed already worn himself out the previous series guarding Michael Jordan at the peak of his powers.

But Joe did not make a spectacle of himself. He didnt act like a jerk to fans(while losing when it counted) and he played both sides as a high level. He made huge shots that history forgets because it wasnt vs the Knicks with Spike Lee feuding with him. And he made bigger and clutcher plays than Reggie EVER did and nobody cares.

Game 3 of the 1990 finals Joe Dumars scores 18 straight points in the 3rd quarter to keep his team in a game the Lakers were starting to pull away in. End of game...up 1...Lakers have a shot to win it...

http://youtu.be/etFAuDqIsj4?t=2m40s


Joe Dumars blocks the game winner and dives to save it to Bill Laimbeer. Wins the game. Had 31/5 that night.

Tell me...really...did Reggie Miller make a bigger play his entire career? Of course not. But nobody remembers defense.

Not that Joe wasnt a great offensive player...he had skills...

http://24.media.tumblr.com/ce4a2a33ab86a8c9b7e3545b1cc95e1c/tumblr_ms7fvoASrL1qcmnsoo2_r1_400.gif


http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/Michael%20Jordan/VS/Detroit%20Pistons/Joe%20Dumars/vs1.gif


He had the big nights pouring it on vs legends thought greater than him:



43 vs the same Knicks defense Reggie torched:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8sHh20vNUQ

42 points out dueling Nique who had 38:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frI0ZMG-_Ok

41 vs the same Magic Reggie knocked out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7dR6A39MdM


But ISH ranks its top guards ever Dumars is well behind Reggie.

All you can really say to knock Joe is that a couple of his teams were awful when rebuilding(more than balanced by being a 2 time champ and finals MVP). You cant evaluate his basketball playing and find anything lacking.

As a basketball player Reggie Miller is simply not the equal of Joe Dumars. As a legend...Joe Dumars will never get the respect Reggie does.

And its the same with a couple dozen other non elite guards at the least.

In that respect...Reggie is quite overrated....but he is still a legend.

Because legendary isnt just your skillset or status in the league ranking wise.

Pistol Pete is a legend the likes of which few can compare to. Bill Cunningham might have been a more effective player. All NBA first team. Doing like 25/12/5. Goes to the ABA(where he was the MVP over prime Dr.J). Philly goes 9-73 without him.

So...does he have a case to be compared as a basketball player? Sure.

As a legend?

Not really.

Just dont confuse the two and it saves some arguing.

I wont argue who between them was the better player but its not fair that you are implying that just because Dumars made his clutch plays in the Finals thus it is much better than anything Miller ever did when in reality Miller scoring 8 point in 9 seconds in game one of the 95 ECF matches that plus the aforementioned "defense" up to the last moment.

Showing high scoring regular season games of Dumars against Miller "opponents" hardly shows what he would do in a playoff series against them dont you think? You show he scored 43 points against the knicks yet upon research the next time the teams met he had games of 10, 2, and 18 points to follow that up not even matching the 43pt total in 3 games.

Add in the fact that we would never know how Dumars would react as the face of the franchise, where the pressure is all on you to perform. He had an alltime great teammate in Isiah Thomas, arguably the 2nd greatest point guard of all time to take the pressure off him which is a lot different from Miller whose best ever teammate in his prime was Rik Smits.

[Kblaze8855]

Noe Joe didnt often have huge games scoring wise. He wasnt a high scorer. But Reggie isnt one to use in a "But what did he do most of the time" argument.

Reggie is known for a few outbursts and like everyone else his usual isnt all that special. hell he had 7 points his first finals game andhe went like 3-18 to get knocked out vs the Knicks. That series he had a big game that gets seen on highlights and in his beyond the glory. One big game of the last 4. The other 3 he had 12, 12, and 8 points. People point out big shots like the push off and 3 vs Jordan in 98(one of my favorite plays to watch from a reaction point of view). He had 8 points that game and 14 and 15 in the previous 2. Beat up on the Magic a few times the year before and had 7 point losing game 7. Plenty of highlights vs the Knicks year before that. also had 2 14 point games and lost the series.

And unlike Joe when Reggie isnt scoring e serves no purpose beyond being a decoy.

I wasnt saying Joe was gonna drop 40 all the time. But Reggie sure as hell wasnt some top flight scorer either. But Joe like Reggie would score his 15-25 usually....and also be an all time great defender, a better than average floor general and point guard, and make huge plays himself....that people just dont give a shit about because there is no media coverage.

Joe makes one of the greatest defensive plays of all time in the finals in a series hes finals MVP...im not sure ive even seen it on ESPN ever. Reggie makes a 3 in the second round and looks at Spike lee and its an ESPN special.

Reggie Millers fame so greatly eclipses what he actually did....and too many greats are just lost to the pages of history while Reggie gets put on a pedestal forever over 30 seconds worth of big shot highlights as he won maybe 2 big series in 19 years.

Hes a legend...that much cant be disputed.

Is he all that special?

Eh.

Im not sure why hes more special than Jojo White. Or Gus Williams.

Nobody caring who they are or what they did doesnt make them any worse at basketball. Just means being legendary is more than an issue of ability.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

God forbid an entertainer gaining notoriety. OH the humanity!!

[Kblaze8855]

Nowadays bullshit.... calls are the norm. The rules make it much easier to get to the line now, by a lot. The hand check and Bowen rules weren't around back then. Do you really think Jamal Crawford would have 40 4 point plays in that era?

And the fact is that Reggie did get to the line a lot for a 2. this year only 2 shooting guards are taking more than 6 fts per game. Miller's career average was 5.1 and he played until he was 40. He had back to back seasons taking over 7 fts per game.

Feel free to name all the shooting guards who had better scoring efficiency than Miller, from any era.

Why would I care to?

Dude comes out and takes 13 shots. Like 3 dumpoffs on the break from Mark Jackson and 4-5 open jumpers off a screen. Why wouldnt I expect him to shoot better than stars who are leaned on to score a lot and cant pick and choose when to get involved?

Reggie Miller never took as many shots as Demar Derozan has this year. Jason Kidd in a couple season took more shots than Reggie Miller ever did.

Am I saying he should have gone out and taken 22 shots a night? No.

Im saying he played his role. Which was to score a bit in the flow of the game and not press it. go a little harder down the stretch.

But he was hardly putting guys on his back night after night. If a lot of guards could afford to take 12 shots and have the team be fine a lot more would shoot well.

The basis of his efficiency is how little was required of him.

Reggie Miller scores 26 a game over 10 games people act like its proof of him being a beast.

A lot of the people hes compared to had to go score 23-28 a game for hundreds of games at a time in their primes for their teams to compete.

Id be far more blown away if he had to carry the load of the true greats and maintained his numbers. But I just dont see it happening. Durant might not have a .650 TS%. Hes also scoring 32 points a game...so....what are we even saying?

Is it really fair to compare shooting numbers between a guy whos offense places him in 30 isolation situations a night with the expectation he scores 25 and up and a guy who comes off literally 50 screens a night to take 10 shots in the halfcourt, flops his way into 5 FTs, and makes a layup or two on the break?

They just arent being asked to do the same things. I suspect there are a lot more great scorers who could shoot 50% if they only took 14 shots than there are great scorers Reggie Miller could stand in for and not do a worse job.

I buy George Gervin shooting 55% if you ask him to only take the 15 best looks he gets. Hell 60%.

Do I believe Reggie scores 36 a game over 50 games on a team that needs every one of them?

I...am less sure.

[Kblaze8855]

That said...do I think Reggie could have been a 28-30ppg scorer?

Yes. The young Reggie. The Reggie I saw live early 90s when he had the post game, quick pullup jumper, and made runners in traffic.

The Reggie he became by the time he was famous?

No. Not without really making a mess of things.

[tontoz]

Not sure why you are comparing Reggie to Durant. Certainly i haven't made that comparison. Maybe you are just trying to change the subject to avoid this issue.

It is far easier to get to the now than it was then. Now if you just bump a guy slightly coming down from a j it is a foul. If the offensive player is facing you and you reach out and touch him on the chest it is a foul. That was not the case in Reggie's day.

[tontoz]

FWIW i also think Dumars is very underrated. His personality obviously works against him.

I remember watching a video "Inside the NBA" back then and they had a camera on the Pistons team bus. Salley was making fun of Dumar's shyness while Joe was covering his face.

But he gave Jordan all he could handle. Joe could light it up when the mood struck him. He had the skills, just not the alpha mindset.

[Kblaze8855]

Avoid what issue exactly?

And again...Reggie isnt the guy to use for "It was harder back in the day". It was harder....but not so much for Reggie. eh was one of the most hated players in the league for the soft calls he got by flopping. He would tell you himself he pioneered the leg kick flop.

Reggie got 2014 calls in 1994.

[tontoz]

Avoid what issue exactly?

And again...Reggie isnt the guy to use for "It was harder back in the day". It was harder....but not so much for Reggie. eh was one of the most hated players in the league for the soft calls he got by flopping. He would tell you himself he pioneered the leg kick flop.

Reggie got 2014 calls in 1994.


So why does Jamal Crawford have almost double the 4 point plays even though Reggie made almost a thousand more 3 pointers?


*crickets*

[Kblaze8855]

You know Jamal has more than EVERYONE right? Including the 600 or so others hes shared a league with the last 15 years?

It isnt modern rules letting him have all these 4 point plays...if it were....perhaps someone else would be doing the same.

Its Jamal Crawford. Not the rules. Hundreds of people have the same rules. Hundreds arent Jamal Crawford.

[Big#50]

The NBA on NBC.
Theme song plays and Miller dropping bombs on your ass.
Dude is a legend.
But get he should not be on TV.

[tontoz]

You know Jamal has more than EVERYONE right? Including the 600 or so others hes shared a league with the last 15 years?

It isnt modern rules letting him have all these 4 point plays...if it were....perhaps someone else would be doing the same.

Its Jamal Crawford. Not the rules. Hundreds of people have the same rules. Hundreds arent Jamal Crawford.


I knew you wouldn't have an answer. The reason is because Jamal gets foul calls that weren't fouls in Reggie's day. If Jamal had played back then he wouldn't be getting all those foul calls.

Apparently Dirk has 2 games this season where he had 2 4 point plays. Martell Webster had 7 just last season.

[Kblaze8855]

You knew I wouldnt have an answer? That what the cute little crickets thing was about?

400 players. Same rules.

One gets more 4 point plays than any of them by a huge margin.

Its not him that is special...its the rules.

The rules that dont lead to hundreds of others getting the same plays.

He isnt the outlier. Its the rules shared by hundreds who dont do what he does.

Yes.

Im just...floored by your outstanding logic. Rendered speechless for the first time in 13 years.

[SHAQisGOAT]

He's overrated by most but underrated by you.. he's "still" a legend.

[tontoz]

You knew I wouldnt have an answer? That what the cute little crickets thing was about?

400 players. Same rules.

One gets more 4 point plays than any of them by a huge margin.

Its not him that is special...its the rules.

The rules that dont lead to hundreds of others getting the same plays.

He isnt the outlier. Its the rules shared by hundreds who dont do what he does.

Yes.

Im just...floored by your outstanding logic. Rendered speechless for the first time in 13 years.


So is Martel Webster an outlier? he had 7 just last season. Is Dirk an outlier? He had 2 4 point plays in a game twice in one season. Funny how these "outliers" keep popping up.

It is also funny how Crawford has half of his total just within the last 5 seasons. In one of those seasons he missed 22 games and this season isn't even over.

[Dro]

Game 1 Game winner vs. Philly 2001 Playoffs-underdogs...only shot 5-21 but the game winner at 35 years old
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dh_WmIa-Gs

Game 5 2000 Playoffs...Reggie goes for 41 on 15-25 hitting huge shots down the stretch of the close game, jab stepping the sh*t outta Tim Thomas, lol...and vs. Ray Allen, Glenn Robinson, Sam Cassell and company...He had 33 pts in Game 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORnlZAv0LnE

Game 6 2000 playoffs vs. Knicks...Reggie goes for 34 and hits huge shots during the 4th quarter to eliminate the Knicks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6IfMVByd3w

Game 5 1994 ECF vs. Knicks....25 points in the 4th quarter....Reggie playing like sh*t up until that point...and you know the rest..one of the greatest performances in NBA History period....There's not too many players not named Bird, Magic, or Jordan who can be the villain in a hostile environment and do that sh*t in MSG.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDSF8otJH8Y

2002 Playoffs vs. Nets...Elimination game Reggie banks in a shot from almost half court to extend the game, then follows it up with a dunk in overtime over (yes over) Aaron Williams to extend the game yet again....Reggie at this point is 35-36 years old

Shot and dunk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBhC1gMTsc8

Reggie Miller 39 points at age 39 against your boy Kobe and the Lakers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFMNWOP-VKo

57 Points vs. Charlotte Hornets 1992
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zWXkwv0am8

1998 Playoffs vs. Knicks..Game 4...Reggie goes for 38 points and hits the game tying 3....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms9J2etJbDQ

1991 vs. Celtics Playoffs, 26 point, 18 in the 4th quarter..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcYILEHN4es

1998 vs. Bulls..Game 3...Everybody talks about the shot in game 6 but forget he had 13 points in the final 5 minutes of the game to bring the Pacers back. He ended up with 28.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJrTGf0Wcgg

2000 Finals. vs. Lakers Game 4....35 points vs. your boy again Kobe, 6 three's..No Kobe did not guard him the entire game..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaI6mPr4AE0

1989-1990....44 pts..vs. the Bulls giving it to Jordan AND Pippen...13-22 shooting...Games like these among others are why Jordan says Reggie is one of the toughest players he's ever played against.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199001100IND.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8MZTOixG54

Not even gonna put the 8 pts in 9 seconds or the shot on the Bulls because everyone knows those...

These are more of his clutch/big games because I know most of you didn't know about these other ones but I've seen all his games and I remembered some of these other ones off the top of my head...I remembered the game against Bulls, just couldn't remember that it was 1990, lol...But

Also...there's ton's of regular season clutch games/buzzer beaters I could've added but I don't feel like it and I wanted to mainly find other playoff moments..

:Edit..and although Richmond, etc may be considered better all around players than Reggie, none of them are doing any of ^. Which is why Reggie is generally regarded in higher than they are. He's just a bigger, big game performer on a more consistent basis than most players. Isn't that why people give Tom Brady the nod over Peyton? Or at least they used to? Cause Tom always delivered when it mattered. Reggie usually delivered...There weren't many games where I thought he wasn't going to step up when he really needed to. Of course he always didn't, but it seemed like t..

[Rose'sACL]

i don't use the words "legend" as loosely as most people do and that is why he is not a legend according to me. You have to be at least top 30 player all time to be considered a legend in my opinion.

[Kblaze8855]

Um....point out to me one other situation in human history where 3 in 360 arent outliers?

Besides in the very article I suspect you read about Webster it says:



“I’m just shooting. They foul me. There is no technique behind it,” Webster said with a shrug. “I just shoot. They run through me. I absorb the contact.”

The NBA has cracked down on shooters who initiate contact with their legs, which certainly would’ve affected Hall of Famer Reggie Miller’s four-point total. But Webster gets his four-point plays by staying focused on the hoop and following through with his form. He doesn’t see it as a big deal.

“People get fouled all the time. Two-point shots. Three-point shots. I guess because it’s so far away from the rim, it’s a factor? But people get fouled all the time.”


With some individual players these days shooting more threes than entire 80s/90s teams im sure the 4 point plays will rise. Guys who barely even step inside the line and take 500 shots....they are gonna add up.

Especially with more and more people going to the Reggie school of flailing like a bitch while shooting jumpers:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADMeqvrdJlA

Reggies own bitchmade 4 point play.

Reggie arguably started all this nonsense.

You wanna talk about fouls in those days vs today...fine. A fair point to be made.

But not on Reggie Miller. Anyone who watched him would tell you he got the softest flop based calls and anyone watching him call a game with James Jones in it will hear him say he not only did it but taught others to do the same.

[tontoz]

Um....point out to me one other situation in human history where 3 in 360 arent outliers?

Besides in the very article I suspect you read about Webster it says:





With some individual players these days shooting more threes than entire 80s/90s teams im sure the 4 point plays will rise. Guys who barely even step inside the line and take 500 shots....they are gonna add up.

Especially with more and more people going to the Reggie school of flailing like a bitch while shooting jumpers:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADMeqvrdJlA

Reggies own bitchmade 4 point play.

Reggie arguably started all this nonsense.

You wanna talk about fouls in those days vs today...fine. A fair point to be made.

But not on Reggie Miller. Anyone who watched him would tell you he got the softest flop based calls and anyone watching him call a game with James Jones in it will hear him say he not only did it but taught others to do the same.


Nick Young is making 4 point plays at twice the rate that Reggie did, relative to 3s made. Another outlier?

Sure Reggie flopped but even with his flopping there is no way he got the number of cheap calls that guys get today.

[Dro]

Yes, Reggie flopped all the time...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Amazing how this little c*nt, Kblaze, is a mod.

[Kblaze8855]

:Edit..and although Richmond, etc may be considered better all around players than Reggie, none of them are doing any of ^. Which is why Reggie is generally regarded in higher than they are. He's just a bigger, big game performer on a more consistent basis than most players. Isn't that why people give Tom Brady the nod over Peyton? Or at least they used to? Cause Tom always delivered when it mattered. Reggie usually delivered...There weren't many games where I thought he wasn't going to step up when he really needed to. Of course he always didn't, but it seemed like t..

Reggie Miller made 14 game winners one season. 14. I counted them once during a video I made on him back when I had the NBA action for every week of several seasons in the 90s.

Nobody ever said he wasnt clutch...on a single big shot. But he wasnt that good at basketball. Not compared to those in question. Joe Johnson made I think 8 game winners one year.

Not terribly impressed by him either.

[The Iron Sheik]

wow why are people catching feelings over this? it's not like what's being said about reggie's basketball acumen is untrue. he was a good player and legend but not a legend in the sense that he's an all time elite.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

wow why are people catching feelings over this? it's not like what's being said about reggie's basketball acumen is untrue. he was a good player and legend but not a legend in the sense that he's an all time elite.

Associating Reggie Miller, one of baddest cats under pressure, with "bitch", is probably the dumbest thing I've ever read on here. A mod saying it? Irresponsible and borderline trolling.

[Dro]

Well then you guys need to take that up with whoever determines what a "legend" is...The OP asked the question, and I'm pretty sure we've explained why the "basketball world" considers him as such, which means clutch moments...Also, can't believe Kblaze just said a guy as efficient as Reggie who scored huge whenever he was NEEDED to, not just when he wanted to because despite it all, Reggie was always a team player. You just said a guy like that, is not that good at basketball...wow...and all the logical arguments I've seen you make on here..oh well, nothing gonna change how you feel...

[tontoz]

wow why are people catching feelings over this? it's not like what's being said about reggie's basketball acumen is untrue. he was a good player and legend but not a legend in the sense that he's an all time elite.



Maybe it is because of people like you who ignore the vast difference in the rules when Reggie played.

Reggie has a career average of 5 fts per game (monta ellis is currently at 5.4) even though he (by Kblaze's admission) wasn't a volume shooter and played under much more physical rules. People are trying to revise history here.

[Kblaze8855]

Amazing how this little c*nt, Kblaze, is a mod.

Amazing is how many people who were 3 at the time want to tell me about Reggie Miller when I watched him in person in Chicago, watched him on tv from his rookie year till final game, and have one of the most extensive video collections on the 90s I buy anyone on the internet having. Ive seen so much of Reggie Miller I can barely stand some of the people here ive seen say the yare 21-22 even bring him up to me.

I dont care if you think im right or wrong. A lot of the people who talk about him pull their opinion directly out of their ass or off an ESPN special.

Ive been close enough to hear Reggie crying for a foul when he still had the gumby fade and people who heard his name for the first time in 2001 are acting like I need to check my history....

[Kblaze8855]

Associating Reggie Miller, one of baddest cats under pressure, with "bitch", is probably the dumbest thing I've ever read on here. A mod saying it? Irresponsible and borderline trolling.


Go watch a game from the 90s. Im far from the first person to call Reggie Miller a bitch.

I believe Jordan called him a woman in interviews.

[hitmanyr2k]

Associating Reggie Miller, one of baddest cats under pressure, with "bitch" is probably the dumbest thing I've ever read on here. A mod doing it is just irresponsible and borderline trolling.

Not necessarily. His flopping and the calls he got used to get on my nerves as well even when it was glaringly obvious he was kicking his leg out and flailing. And as someone who loves defense I recognized that Miller never did any of the dirty work. The guy hardly played any defense, didn't hit the boards, or anything remotely physically taxing. That's one of the main reasons his career lasted as long as it did. Another thing that frustrates me about him is he never tried to get any better at any other aspect of the game or any stronger for that matter. He came back with the same game and the same skinny twig frame year after year. Great shotmaker, not a great player.

[Dro]

The belief that Reggie was a bad defender is not true..Don't feel like going into it but he was an average defender at worst and at times, stepped his defense up in certain situations. In all my years as a Pacer fan, I have never felt like he was defensive "liability" on the court until his later years...That didn't mean that had a lot of faith in him to slow anybody down but I knew he would be pesky and he could chase players around screens...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

No need to, I lived through it.

As for Mike? Guy was just upset that Reggie talked and fought back. Dude couldn't ****ing stand him.

[tontoz]

A lot of players really didn't like Reggie because they had to expend so much energy guarding him. He would run them into the ground.

When he was in the booth he was asked about Bruce Bowen, what it was like being guarded by such a physical defender. Reggie's response was "My feeling was he can't hold what he can't catch."

[Legends66NBA7]

When I think of the word "Legend", it really comes down to how great and how much the player was remembered. Considering Reggie Miller retired as the all-time 3 point shooter and is 2nd all-time, with the addition of memorable playoff moments, I think you can see his HOF cred is pretty safe.

As an overall player outside of shooting ? Where was Miller regarded as a player in the 90's ? He would probably just make into the top 20 of players in the 90's perhaps ?:

Penny Hardaway
Scottie Pippen
John Stockton
Gary Payton
Shawn Kemp
Kevin Johnson
Alonzo Mourning
Dennis Rodman
Tim Hardaway


^And then maybe Miller. Not even going to the Top 10 of 90's players.

I will say it's a little disrespectful to say that Miller was Joe Johnson. If there's 2 players I draw a comparison to Miller, 1 is Ray Allen for similar skill sets. Miller would probably won titles on those 08 Celtics and 13 Heat teams. 2, Carmelo Anthony. Not in terms of how they play, but in terms of how they have taken their teams to the playoffs year after year, have both been considered "clutch", but have never won a title. So really, I don't think he's a "legend" as a great overall player where I don't think he was ever considered to be in the conversation of the best players in the game, but a shooter, sure. His "clutchness" is pretty overrated.

As for him being a bitch, I can see how he could be an annoying player. That's just part of the game, though. You've got to be mentally tough and not take yourself out of the game.

[tontoz]

People should also keep in mind that Reggie was a productive player for a long time. His longevity has to count for something.

I would agree that he is certainly much better than Joe Johnson. But i would also easily put him over Penny Hardaway. Penny just didn't have that many productive seasons. Even at his best his jumper was mediocre.

[Kblaze8855]

Just to bring the seriousness in here down a bit just let me say.......5 goats came out of nowhere and are eating the bushes in my neighbors yard. I'm serious.

5.

Goats.

I'm not sure what to do

[fpliii]

Just to bring the seriousness in here down a bit just let me say.......5 goats came out of nowhere and are eating the bushes in my neighbors yard. I'm serious.

5.

Goats.

I'm not sure what to do
:lol

[Legends66NBA7]

Just to bring the seriousness in here down a bit just let me say.......5 goats came out of nowhere and are eating the bushes in my neighbors yard. I'm serious.

5.

Goats.

I'm not sure what to do

Very random for them to do that, unless this is the country side... but yeah, call animal control.

[SamuraiSWISH]

OP claims no one pre 2005 was a legendary player ... clearly he's a 12 year old.

BTW, no one claims Reggie is one of the game's best all time players. He's simply one of the greatest shooters, and clutch / big game players that ever existed.

Technically, Mitch Richmond was way better, just didn't get the pub due to being stuck in Sacramento on terrible teams.

Can't hate on Reggie though. One of the greatest off ball games of all-time, fantastic shooter. Clutch as can be. Ice cold killer, doing whatever it took to win. Fantastic trash talker getting into opponents heads, etc.

Had MJ, and Kobe attack him physically do to his antics. MJ ripped his face off, Kobe tackled him into the scores table.

Everyone hated him, but EVERYONE respected his abilities. He played on some fantastic teams, and was the scoring catalyst to take them further than a lot of better actual players were ever able to do consistently with their teams.

[Reggie43]

Noe Joe didnt often have huge games scoring wise. He wasnt a high scorer. But Reggie isnt one to use in a "But what did he do most of the time" argument.

Reggie is known for a few outbursts and like everyone else his usual isnt all that special. hell he had 7 points his first finals game andhe went like 3-18 to get knocked out vs the Knicks. That series he had a big game that gets seen on highlights and in his beyond the glory. One big game of the last 4. The other 3 he had 12, 12, and 8 points. People point out big shots like the push off and 3 vs Jordan in 98(one of my favorite plays to watch from a reaction point of view). He had 8 points that game and 14 and 15 in the previous 2. Beat up on the Magic a few times the year before and had 7 point losing game 7. Plenty of highlights vs the Knicks year before that. also had 2 14 point games and lost the series.

And unlike Joe when Reggie isnt scoring e serves no purpose beyond being a decoy.

I wasnt saying Joe was gonna drop 40 all the time. But Reggie sure as hell wasnt some top flight scorer either. But Joe like Reggie would score his 15-25 usually....and also be an all time great defender, a better than average floor general and point guard, and make huge plays himself....that people just dont give a shit about because there is no media coverage.

Joe makes one of the greatest defensive plays of all time in the finals in a series hes finals MVP...im not sure ive even seen it on ESPN ever. Reggie makes a 3 in the second round and looks at Spike lee and its an ESPN special.

Reggie Millers fame so greatly eclipses what he actually did....and too many greats are just lost to the pages of history while Reggie gets put on a pedestal forever over 30 seconds worth of big shot highlights as he won maybe 2 big series in 19 years.

Hes a legend...that much cant be disputed.

Is he all that special?

Eh.

Im not sure why hes more special than Jojo White. Or Gus Williams.

Nobody caring who they are or what they did doesnt make them any worse at basketball. Just means being legendary is more than an issue of ability.

While I somewhat understand and agree with most of your points how about answering the fact that Joe had an alltime great pointguard (Thomas) and alltime great defender (Rodman) playing with him, something which Miller never had the luxury of having? and as I have said Dumars never faced "franchise player pressure"

If you team up Miller with Isiah on those very good Pacer teams in the 90s I think they would have won atleast one championship, maybe 94, 95 or 99 they would have taken

[Simple Jack]

While I somewhat understand and agree with most of your points how about answering the fact that Joe had an alltime great pointguard (Thomas) and alltime great defender (Rodman) playing with him, something which Miller never had the luxury of having? and as I have said Dumars never faced "franchise player pressure"

If you team up Miller with Isiah on those very good Pacer teams in the 90s I think they would have won atleast one championship, maybe 94, 95 or 99 they would have taken

Makes you wonder why a guy without great teammates around him wasn't able to really do anything eye-popping (in regards to numbers) if he's as good as his reputation makes him out to be.

It's possible they may have won with another great player; but it likely wouldn't have been due to consistent dominant performances by Reggie.

Reggie was a fantastic shooter; that's about it. Nothing else he does stands out relative to his peers or all-time greats which he is so commonly lumped with due to his reputation rather than his actual impact on a basketball court.

[Dro]

Makes you wonder why a guy without great teammates around him wasn't able to really do anything eye-popping (in regards to numbers) if he's as good as his reputation makes him out to be.

It's possible they may have won with another great player; but it likely wouldn't have been due to consistent dominant performances by Reggie.
Reggie was in the playoffs for 14 years in the Jordan era, 13 of them probably as the best player on the team. 6 times in the ECF and one trip to the Finals against Shaq and Kobe....And the team needed every one of his clutch shots, clutch quarters, clutch final 2-3 minute stretches of the 4th...Did the most with what he had...One of the most efficient players in the history of the league, and just ridiculous for a jump shooter....what more do people want?:confusedshrug:

Also, came back during the 1st round of the 96 playoffs in the deciding game 5 to score 29 points with 5 threes with some funny looking goggles on :lol after missing the previous 4 games with an eye injury...

:bowdown:

[Reggie43]

Makes you wonder why a guy without great teammates around him wasn't able to really do anything eye-popping (in regards to numbers) if he's as good as his reputation makes him out to be.

It's possible they may have won with another great player; but it likely wouldn't have been due to consistent dominant performances by Reggie.

Reggie was a fantastic shooter; that's about it. Nothing else he does stands out relative to his peers or all-time greats which he is so commonly lumped with due to his reputation rather than his actual impact on a basketball court.

The post you quoted was not about how "good" he was but was about how he stacks up in comparison to Dumars. Another poster mentioned all those great finals performances that Dumars had and I replied that he had alltime greats playing with him at the time so it wasnt a fair comparison.

How about this, do you think Dumars would have done any better replacing Miller in those Pacers teams in the 90s?

[Dro]

The post you quoted was not about how "good" he was but was about how he stacks up in comparison to Dumars. Another poster mentioned all those great finals performances that Dumars had and I replied that he had alltime greats playing with him at the time so it wasnt a fair comparison.

How about this, do you think Dumars would have done any better replacing Miller in those Pacers teams in the 90s?
:lol Of course not...you can build a team around Reggie which the Pacers did which is a testament to his unselfishness....I mean, he's one of the most efficient players ever and people really don't think he could've avg. more PPG if he wanted to? :banghead: He's already averaging around 20ppg on great efficiency and people don't think he could've shot a few more times per game and averaged 23-24?:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

[Reggie43]

:lol Of course not...you can build a team around Reggie which the Pacers did which is a testament to his unselfishness....I mean, he's one of the most efficient players ever and people really don't think he could've avg. more PPG if he wanted to? :banghead: He's already averaging around 20ppg on great efficiency and people don't think he could've shot a few more times per game and averaged 23-24?:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

Few people outside Pacers fans really understand this, always pointing out how he only averaged X amount of points so he wasnt really that good when in reality he was sacrificing shots for the good of the team.

[Dro]

Few people outside Pacers fans really understand this, always pointing out how he only averaged X amount of point so he wasnt really that good when in reality he was sacrificing shots for the good of the team.
Yup...he averaged around 24ppg and then he got Smits, Detlef and the rest of the crew around him and the team played inside out...The team always played inside out while Smits was here...

[Dro]

Even if you are just looking at statistics and not taking into account actually watching the guy and all of his big moments, he was a pretty rare kind of player.

A 6-foot-7 shooting guard who averaged 20+ points on 50+% shooting from the field. Putting up that kind of FG% as primarily a jumpshooter is insane. If you just look at his 3PT%, you're not going to be totally blown away. But, his jumper was silky smooth from anywhere on the floor.

His TS% was above 60% in 13 of his 18 seasons.

http://i61.tinypic.com/vfuy5t.jpg

That's insane consistency. Steve Nash is the only guy in the league who can come close to matching that, and even he hasn't done it 13 times.

Additionally, as you probably could have guessed, no guards in today's NBA are even close to Reggie's efficiency in that respect. Scoring 23 points per game on .650 TS%? No one even close to that. The closest is James Harden at .617.

Never dipping below 50% on his eFG% is also obviously a sign of the kind of consistent, efficient shooter he was.

He was a special player. Anyone who watched him in his prime knows that. The numbers aren't necessary to validate what we saw with our own two eyes, but they're there if you look hard enough.

Whether he's a "legend"? Now we're just getting into semantics. He had numerous legendary performances, I can tell you that.
Its like this post got skipped right over or people just don't think it makes a difference:confusedshrug: All this talk about Lebron's efficiency and player's efficiency in general and in this case, it doesn't seem to matter much...

[Kblaze8855]

Lebron has been scoring 27-31ppg for 10 years in row. If he were scoring 10 points less people wouldnt be so amazed by his percentages. Reggie fr most of his prime(say...before his last 19ppg season) generally put up 18-21 a game on 44-48% shooting. We arent talking about some guy pouring it on night after night and maintaining high shooting numbers.

Hes shooting 12-14 times a game. He got to 15 shots a game once after 89-90 and he shot 44% that year. With a moved in 3 point line ill add.

Real talk....

Which guys in the HOF for nothing but their scoring wouldnt shoot 50% if you take them down to 12-13 shots a game?

The guys really considered great...your Niques, Gervins, Dantleys, Kings, and so on. Guys like Alex English, Pistol Pete, or even future HOF guys like Paul Pierce.

You say.....forget all those percentage ruining shots you take trying to carry your teams offense. Chill and take the 12 best looks you get while fading into the background of most games only to emerge with 3 minutes left.

What do you think guy like Pierce in his prime would shoot?

Reggie Miller gets great scorer recognition without having to carry the load great scorers usually did. And it wasnt his just being so benevolent. By the time he was the Reggie Miller people talk about...in the words of his own coach:



"I know people are going to say Reggie didn't do this or that, but I've always said it's a team thing for him," said Brown. "He has trouble getting his own shot, beating people off the dribble. He's not what people make him out to be."

Which is painfully obvious to anyone who watched him.

Larry Brown sat Reggie down in 1994 and told him he was no longer going to be the focal point of the offense. To his credit he accepted it. But the fact remains....

Rik Smits was shooting more than Reggie in the mid 90s. Not in totals because he didnt play big minutes. But both in the game...rik was the focal point. Reggie was not only not some league elite scorer he wasnt the primary focus of his own teams offense.

But im to compare him to guys who had to carry a team night in night out for years getting ISOs run for them and dealing with doubles and defenses designed to limit them? Reggie was one of the great decoys of all time. He wore out the guy chasing him around....but you didnt kill yourself trying to limit his looks when hes not gonna get the ball or do anything with it anyway.

Plenty of people who were far less efficient were flat out wiping the floor with Reggie as offensive players. So why should I care? Im amazed Geroge Gervin could take 25 shots a night the other team knows hes gonna take and still shoot 54%. Reggie shooting 47% taking 13.5 shots playing off Rik smits and picking his spots?

Eh.

Its always impressive to even be an 18ppg guy in the NBA. So im not saying it was literally unimpressive. He deserves a lot of respect for accepting the role he was placed in and having a long noteworthy career that rightfully landed him in the HOF. Dude scored 25000 points and is one of the bigger stars of his time and an all time great shooter and big shot maker.

But start comparing it to other guys on that highest level reserved for the greats of the game?

Reggie just doesnt shine to me.

[hitmanyr2k]

Reggie was in the playoffs for 14 years in the Jordan era, 13 of them probably as the best player on the team. 6 times in the ECF and one trip to the Finals against Shaq and Kobe....And the team needed every one of his clutch shots, clutch quarters, clutch final 2-3 minute stretches of the 4th...Did the most with what he had...One of the most efficient players in the history of the league, and just ridiculous for a jump shooter....what more do people want?:confusedshrug:


How about some toughness? Some defense? Some rebounding? Should it be ok that Reggie Miller was worthless when he wasn't scoring? We hear all these clutch stories and how Reggie did what it takes to win but when he wasn't scoring what was he doing? Game 7 against the Bulls in '98 both Jordan and Pippen had horrific shooting performances but where did they beat the Pacers? On the boards. 11 offensive rebounds between both players. When Reggie Miller went ghost in the 2nd half of Game 7 what else did he provide his team with? Absolutely nothing. ZERO rebounds in a Game 7 is inexcusable. He had only two rebounds in elimination Game 6 before that when he went 2-13 from the field. Reggie could be a cold-blooded shooter at times but he was consistently average or sub-par in the other areas of the game.

[Dro]

How about some toughness? Some defense? Some rebounding? Should it be ok that Reggie Miller was worthless when he wasn't scoring? We hear all these clutch stories and how Reggie did what it takes to win but when he wasn't scoring what was he doing? Game 7 against the Bulls in '98 both Jordan and Pippen had horrific shooting performances but where did they beat the Pacers? On the boards. 11 offensive rebounds between both players. When Reggie Miller went ghost in the 2nd half of Game 7 what else did he provide his team with? Absolutely nothing. ZERO rebounds in a Game 7 is inexcusable. He had only two rebounds in elimination Game 6 before that when he went 2-13 from the field. Reggie could be a cold-blooded shooter at times but he was consistently average or sub-par in the other areas of the game.
lol, ok...well what is Ray Allen, or Mitch Richmond, or any of these guys doing if they aren't scoring? This glass half empty thing is ridiculous...Yes, he had one main dimension but when you do that one thing on such high efficiency, how in the world are people knitpicking this stuff? There's are a million 1 dimensional players in the NBA. What is Melo doing when he's not scoring, is he helping his team? Nope. Up until the last couple years, what was Durant doing if he wasn't scoring? Was he making a huge impact on his team's success? No. So now its Reggie's fault because the Pacers didn't have more rebounds? Did you also forget he was checking a guy named Michael Jeffery Jordan also?:confusedshrug:

Its like you put guys over Reggie but don't hold them to the same standard...Hardly any of those guys you're comparing Reggie to are having any impact if they aren't scoring...And I shouldn't have to point this out but Reggie ALWAYS has an impact on the game whether he's shooting or scoring or not just because he's out there and you have to pay attention to him. Just like Ray Allen.

[Dro]

But start comparing it to other guys on that highest level reserved for the greats of the game?

Reggie just doesnt shine to me.
Where has anybody done this? This is your issue with the word "legend"..Nobody in this entire thread has compared him to any of the truly greatest players in NBA history, except in the clutchness department...Its almost like you guys are creating stuff to debate about that nobody is even bringing up...

His percentage would drop a few, thats obvious, but from the sounds of it, he would've gotten more respect if he averaged 25ppg on 45% which makes no sense to me....I don't see how that would make him any more effective than 20ppg on 50%....Hitman is pointing out 1 game where he didn't step up, although I already pointed out that he brought his team back in game 3 by scoring 13 points in the final 5 minutes...Hits the game winner in Game 6 and yet, we're blaming him for game 7, and for stuff like rebounding, lol...We've established that the guy is not Superman...:confusedshrug:

[Kblaze8855]

Im not talking about Jordans, Jerry Wests, and the like. I meant scorers....and I mentioned a lot of people not put on that level. Mostly because of claims like this:


Feel free to name all the shooting guards who had better scoring efficiency than Miller, from any era.

And lists of TS% and so on saying that only one or two people ever compare over x number of seasons.

Scoring efficiency while flat out being worse at scoring just doesnt matter. Im asked to name the guards ahead from any era. Which opens him up to all time comparisons.

Does Jerry West have the TS% or whatever the hell it is? I suspect not for a number of reasons(no 3s for one). Is he still a better scorer by a mile? Of course.

So...why is the efficiency pointed out like it carries the day?

Compare him to Gervin, English, Paul Pierce, or whoever. Im not talking all time elite players. Im talking other scorers.

He does not compare. So why am I being told none of them have his such and such percentages as if that matters?

Reggie Miller would be the sidekick of 100+ players with worse shooting numbers. So....why am I hearing about it as if it makes him exceptional?

All of which ignores the fact that he was actually like an 18-20ppg player who didnt shoot that well. Dude had 44% shooting seasons. hes not some year in year out high percentage shooter. But of course we now add everything together to get a neat single number....but really...Derrick Rose in his second season shot better than Reggie did in 15 years.

Hes a 18-21ppg guy most of his career who only took 12-15 shots a game. The way people talk about his efficiency you might think he shot 53% for 8-9 years in row or something. Which...I suspect almost everyone else in the HOF for nothing but scoring would if they took 13 shots a night. A huge chunk were 3s which of course skews the numbers...but fact remains...he was shooting 44-47% a good while. Which is fine.

Just not what id call special. He sure didnt miss fts though....which counts. It all counts. I just dont see why we roll it into one number.

[Just2McFly]

i dont get why people make ti seem like hes some sort of clutch god.... like how many times did he hit gw shots in comparison to other great/greater players?

[davehos]

He's in the "50/40/90" club.



Why yes sonny, I tell you what, Reggie Miller is a hall of famer and a legend.

[davehos]

Lebron

I stopped reading at the first word.

[hitmanyr2k]

lol, ok...well what is Ray Allen, or Mitch Richmond, or any of these guys doing if they aren't scoring? This glass half empty thing is ridiculous...Yes, he had one main dimension but when you do that one thing on such high efficiency, how in the world are people knitpicking this stuff? There's are a million 1 dimensional players in the NBA. What is Melo doing when he's not scoring, is he helping his team? Nope. Up until the last couple years, what was Durant doing if he wasn't scoring? Was he making a huge impact on his team's success? No. So now its Reggie's fault because the Pacers didn't have more rebounds? Did you also forget he was checking a guy named Michael Jeffery Jordan also?:confusedshrug:

Its like you put guys over Reggie but don't hold them to the same standard...Hardly any of those guys you're comparing Reggie to are having any impact if they aren't scoring...And I shouldn't have to point this out but Reggie ALWAYS has an impact on the game whether he's shooting or scoring or not just because he's out there and you have to pay attention to him. Just like Ray Allen.

Carmelo is actually one of the better rebounders at SF and he receives his share of criticism for his defense. And what you said about Durant just further proves my point about Reggie. Durant could have come back year after year with the same old one dimensional game but guess what? Durant has obviously been working on his game and IMPROVING on it like any star who wants to win and be at his best. Durant's ball-handling, playmaking ability, and defense have improved significantly over the years. Reggie never seemed intent on improving his game beyond what it was. He was content with being the same one trick pony for his entire career.

[Dro]

Carmelo is actually one of the better rebounders at SF and he receives his share of criticism for his defense. And what you said about Durant just further proves my point about Reggie. Durant could have come back year after year with the same old one dimensional game but guess what? Durant has obviously been working on his game and IMPROVING on it like any star who wants to win and be at his best. Durant's ball-handling, playmaking ability, and defense have improved significantly over the years. Reggie never seemed intent on improving his game beyond what it was. He was content with being the same one trick pony for his entire career.
Carmelo only started getting credit for defense and rebounding THIS year...Lets not act like he was always that type of player...

Durant is a once, maybe twice in the lifetime player...Not sure why we're using him as an example...And again, when you do that one aspect so well, you tend to not focus on other things...Quick, name the greatest shooters in NBA history other than Durant or Nash or somebody and tell me how many other things they were good at....we can go with our Dale Ellis', Dale Curry's, Ray Allen's, or you can pick some...:confusedshrug:

[Kblaze8855]

I stopped reading at the first word.

I suppose you didnt read what I was replying to either:


All this talk about Lebron's efficiency and player's efficiency in general and in this case, it doesn't seem to matter much...

[Dro]

Im not talking about Jordans, Jerry Wests, and the like. I meant scorers....and I mentioned a lot of people not put on that level. Mostly because of claims like this:



And lists of TS% and so on saying that only one or two people ever compare over x number of seasons.

Scoring efficiency while flat out being worse at scoring just doesnt matter. Im asked to name the guards ahead from any era. Which opens him up to all time comparisons.

Does Jerry West have the TS% or whatever the hell it is? I suspect not for a number of reasons(no 3s for one). Is he still a better scorer by a mile? Of course.

So...why is the efficiency pointed out like it carries the day?

Compare him to Gervin, English, Paul Pierce, or whoever. Im not talking all time elite players. Im talking other scorers.

He does not compare. So why am I being told none of them have his such and such percentages as if that matters?

Reggie Miller would be the sidekick of 100+ players with worse shooting numbers. So....why am I hearing about it as if it makes him exceptional?

All of which ignores the fact that he was actually like an 18-20ppg player who didnt shoot that well. Dude had 44% shooting seasons. hes not some year in year out high percentage shooter. But of course we now add everything together to get a neat single number....but really...Derrick Rose in his second season shot better than Reggie did in 15 years.

Hes a 18-21ppg guy most of his career who only took 12-15 shots a game. The way people talk about his efficiency you might think he shot 53% for 8-9 years in row or something. Which...I suspect almost everyone else in the HOF for nothing but scoring would if they took 13 shots a night. A huge chunk were 3s which of course skews the numbers...but fact remains...he was shooting 44-47% a good while. Which is fine.

Just not what id call special. He sure didnt miss fts though....which counts. It all counts. I just dont see why we roll it into one number.
You're really going to use his 44% in the season when he was still recovering from the eye injury from the previous season?

Reggie's first 9 seasons

49%
48%
51%
51%
50%
48%
50%
46%
47% (injured his eye at the end of the season)
next season was 44%
48%
44%
45%
44%
45%
44%
44%
44%

His shooting percentage started dropping as he got older..Not sure why thats' surprising for a jump shooter who still at times the focul point of the offense...Its not Ray Allen going to play with 2 all-stars in Boston or going to Miami and teaming up with 3 all-stars, getting open shots all over the place...And Reggie was still good for clutch shots, still stepped up his scoring in certain series when he was most needed...Still dropped 39 on Kobe and co. at age 39....

Again, not sure what else you want:confusedshrug: He's worthy of the respect he gets...

[Dro]

Game 1 Game winner vs. Philly 2001 Playoffs-underdogs...only shot 5-21 but the game winner at 35 years old
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dh_WmIa-Gs

Game 5 2000 Playoffs...Reggie goes for 41 on 15-25 hitting huge shots down the stretch of the close game, jab stepping the sh*t outta Tim Thomas, lol...and vs. Ray Allen, Glenn Robinson, Sam Cassell and company...He had 33 pts in Game 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORnlZAv0LnE

Game 6 2000 playoffs vs. Knicks...Reggie goes for 34 and hits huge shots during the 4th quarter to eliminate the Knicks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6IfMVByd3w

Game 5 1994 ECF vs. Knicks....25 points in the 4th quarter....Reggie playing like sh*t up until that point...and you know the rest..one of the greatest performances in NBA History period....There's not too many players not named Bird, Magic, or Jordan who can be the villain in a hostile environment and do that sh*t in MSG.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDSF8otJH8Y

2002 Playoffs vs. Nets...Elimination game Reggie banks in a shot from almost half court to extend the game, then follows it up with a dunk in overtime over (yes over) Aaron Williams to extend the game yet again....Reggie at this point is 35-36 years old

Shot and dunk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBhC1gMTsc8

Reggie Miller 39 points at age 39 against your boy Kobe and the Lakers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFMNWOP-VKo

57 Points vs. Charlotte Hornets 1992
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zWXkwv0am8

1998 Playoffs vs. Knicks..Game 4...Reggie goes for 38 points and hits the game tying 3....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms9J2etJbDQ

1991 vs. Celtics Playoffs, 26 point, 18 in the 4th quarter..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcYILEHN4es

1998 vs. Bulls..Game 3...Everybody talks about the shot in game 6 but forget he had 13 points in the final 5 minutes of the game to bring the Pacers back. He ended up with 28.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJrTGf0Wcgg

2000 Finals. vs. Lakers Game 4....35 points vs. your boy again Kobe, 6 three's..No Kobe did not guard him the entire game..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaI6mPr4AE0

1989-1990....44 pts..vs. the Bulls giving it to Jordan AND Pippen...13-22 shooting...Games like these among others are why Jordan says Reggie is one of the toughest players he's ever played against.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199001100IND.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8MZTOixG54

Not even gonna put the 8 pts in 9 seconds or the shot on the Bulls because everyone knows those...

These are more of his clutch/big games because I know most of you didn't know about these other ones but I've seen all his games and I remembered some of these other ones off the top of my head...I remembered the game against Bulls, just couldn't remember that it was 1990, lol...But

Also...there's ton's of regular season clutch games/buzzer beaters I could've added but I don't feel like it and I wanted to mainly find other playoff moments..

:Edit..and although Richmond, etc may be considered better all around players than Reggie, none of them are doing any of ^. Which is why Reggie is generally regarded in higher than they are. He's just a bigger, big game performer on a more consistent basis than most players. Isn't that why people give Tom Brady the nod over Peyton? Or at least they used to? Cause Tom always delivered when it mattered. Reggie usually delivered...There weren't many games where I thought he wasn't going to step up when he really needed to. Of course he always didn't, but it seemed like t..

The bolded are his most impressive games imo...I still left out some games..

[Kblaze8855]

As I said...a guy taking 12-14 shots a game shooting in the mid to upper 40s is not special. Especially for a HOF guard who did nothing else at a high level.

And until the dozens of much better players get the respect they deserve im not sure he is fully deserving of the props he gets. It isnt his fault they are underrated. But far as ability vs respect....he sure is overrated.

Your honest opinion....I wont argue...just curious.

Is there one NBA players whos fame and legendary status more exceeds his ability?

If so...who is it?

Is there one player in NBA history who is as known as reggie miller...as generally famous...who isnt better at the game?

I can think of a few brief sensations. Lin for one. But Reggie is more well known than guys who led their teams to titles without even the talent Reggie led nowhere.

You ask todays fans about Reggie or Rick Barry...Rick gets a "Who?". And it is just a shame to me.

Again...not his fault he became a media sensation and has kids from his time forever acting like hes a beast over 24ppg series he lost. But damn....

The extent to which hes propped up instead of a lot of guys who he has nothing on basketball wise is just bothersome.

[Dro]

As I said...a guy taking 12-14 shots a game shooting in the mid to upper 40s is not special. Especially for a HOF guard who did nothing else at a high level.

And until the dozens of much better players get the respect they deserve im not sure he is fully deserving of the props he gets. It isnt his fault they are underrated. But far as ability vs respect....he sure is overrated.

Your honest opinion....I wont argue...just curious.

Is there one NBA players whos fame and legendary status more exceeds his ability?

If so...who is it?

Is there one player in NBA history who is as known as reggie miller...as generally famous...who isnt better at the game?

I can think of a few brief sensations. Lin for one. But Reggie is more well known than guys who led their teams to titles without even the talent Reggie led nowhere.

You ask todays fans about Reggie or Rick Barry...Rick gets a "Who?". And it is just a shame to me.

Again...not his fault he became a media sensation and has kids from his time forever acting like hes a beast over 24ppg series he lost. But damn....

The extent to which hes propped up instead of a lot of guys who he has nothing on basketball wise is just bothersome.
Reggie just happened to play in a more respected era, just like all the guys from that era. But young people of today barely respect Reggie at all...Reggie gets respect from his own peers, thats where most of his accolades come from....He's never been a great, great player among fans on the internet or where I'm from...

But one of the biggest signs of respect is what your peers think of you and having guys like Jordan, Pippen, Ewing, Bird, Magic and others give you the props they do..It means a lot...It just does...:confusedshrug:

But there's player's who will be remember much more than Reggie in the next 20 years...As I stated, young people today barely remember Reggie and they only know him from TNT and ESPN. A guy like Dennis Rodman will be remembered more...He's a 1 dimensional player but that dimension was one of the best of all time, just like Reggie's...Rodman obviously being a great defender also. I can see guys like James Harden and others being more famous than Reggie in the next 20 years, just because of social media and all the other advances in technology..

I almost feel like its kind've pointless...I've seen literally every minute of this man's NBA career whether live or on TV..I've been to tons of Pacer games, my grandmother was his biggest fan...So my viewpoint is bound to appear inflated but I don't think he's some all time great player but I do think clutch means a lot and I value those highly....The Knicks stuff is almost legendary when being discussed among NBA circles..I'm giving only MJ or Bird a chance at doing some of that with the hatred being spewed back and forth...Felt like Reggie could literally be sniped by a NY fan at any moment:lol

[Fork]

Cuz Clutch

[tontoz]

Focusing on FG% is completely idiotic because it doesn't take into account foul shots or 3 pointers.

[Reggie43]

Wow arguing that a 47% career shooter who played 18 years once shot 44% so he was not that good a shooter is such nonsense. Add in the fact that he followed it up by comparing the single season high fg% of Derrick Rose to Millers first 15 year fg%, ignoring the fact that Miller shot much better 4 times in that span with a high of .514 while shooting mostly jumpers which is a contrast to Rose's slashing style to get his .489

[tontoz]

Rose's career best TS was 55%.

Miller's career worst TS was 57.4%.

[Kblaze8855]

"Focusing on FG% is completely idiotic because it
doesn't take into account foul shots or 3
pointers."



Which is why we have a number for foul shots and threes. Same numbers for thirty years. No new information. Just combining them.

Reggie barely shot the ball by star standards and didn't make those he took at any amazing rate.

Shot well from three. Made his fts.

Nobody ever disputed any of that.

But some real scorer...a 19 to 20 shot guy who carried a team....shoots only 60% as much in his prime?

Hard to imagine them not shooting rather well. The high percentage of that dozen or so that come from three makes it more impressive. So 46 or 47 percent?

Very nice. Nothing to make a big deal of though.

[tontoz]

"Focusing on FG% is completely idiotic because it
doesn't take into account foul shots or 3
pointers."



Which is why we have a number for foul shots and threes. Same numbers for thirty years. No new information. Just combining them.

Reggie barely shot the ball by star standards and didn't make those he took at any amazing rate.

Shot well from three. Made his fts.

Nobody ever disputed any of that.

But some real scorer...a 19 to 20 shot guy who carried a team....shoots only 60% as much in his prime?

Hard to imagine them not shooting rather well. The high percentage of that dozen or so that come from three makes it more impressive. So 46 or 47 percent?

Very nice. Nothing to make a big deal of though.



Once again you try to downplay the fact that 3 pointers give a team an extra point. Therefore a 3 point attempt has more value than a 2 point attempt.

Reggie's career EFG was 54.4%. That is the actual, mathematically correct number combining 2 point and 3 point shooting. If that isn't an amazing rate then what is? And where exactly did you get the 46-47% number? Your ass?

I guess Ray Allen isn't that good since his career FG% is 45.2%.

[houston]

kblaze killed this thread. he right

[russwest0]

Greatest Pacer of all time + one of the greatest 3pt shooters of all time.

He's a legend. Deal with it.

[Just2McFly]

Rose's career best TS was 55%.

Miller's career worst TS was 57.4%.
:biggums:

Is this how we judge basketball now? Or are we forgetting that rose is better at basketball than reggie ever was ?

[tontoz]

:biggums:

Is this how we judge basketball now? Or are we forgetting that rose is better at basketball than reggie ever was ?


I am not the one who brought up Rose. It was the math confused Kblaze who tried to claim that Rose shot better than Reggie which is a lie. Rose has never shot better than Miller, not even in Miller's worst season.

[Just2McFly]

Scoring efficiency is one of the measures used to measure a player. That is a big reason why Lebron and Durant are so good. They can score at a high volume and high efficiency.
"one of"

now lets look at skill and impact, which have way more weight than that shit

[Reggie43]

"Focusing on FG% is completely idiotic because it
doesn't take into account foul shots or 3
pointers."



Which is why we have a number for foul shots and threes. Same numbers for thirty years. No new information. Just combining them.

Reggie barely shot the ball by star standards and didn't make those he took at any amazing rate.

Shot well from three. Made his fts.

Nobody ever disputed any of that.

But some real scorer...a 19 to 20 shot guy who carried a team....shoots only 60% as much in his prime?

Hard to imagine them not shooting rather well. The high percentage of that dozen or so that come from three makes it more impressive. So 46 or 47 percent?

Very nice. Nothing to make a big deal of though.

Yeah points taken, but the reverse is true as you yourself have admitted.
Miller taking more shots in his prime would have upped his scoring averages significantly although his percentages naturally would take a dip.

His playoff games are great examples of what he could have done if he shot the ball more. In the 94-95 regular season he averaged 19.6ppg at 46% on only 13.5 shots but when the playoffs came along he upped his attempts to 17.1 more shot per game which he proceeded to score 25.5ppg on 47.6%.

He upped his scoring a whole 6 points better from regular season to playoffs and people still dispute the "clutch" tag that he gets. Name me players on the same level and even those percieved to be much better that has upped their scoring numbers that drastically? Most players actually average less points in the playoffs because teams focus more defensively

[tontoz]

"one of"

now lets look at skill and impact, which have way more weight than that shit


I am not the one who brought up Rose. It was the math confused Kblaze who tried to claim that Rose shot better than Reggie which is a lie. Rose has never shot better than Miller, not even in Miller's worst season.

RIF

[moe94]

How can we be sure that Reggie Miller even existed?

[tontoz]

Yeah points taken, but the reverse is true as you yourself have admitted.
Miller taking more shots in his prime would have upped his scoring averages significantly although his percentages naturally would take a dip.

His playoff games are great examples of what he could have done if he shot the ball more. In the 94-95 regular season he averaged 19.6ppg at 46% on only 13.5 shots but when the playoffs came along he upped his attempts to 17.1 more shot per game which he proceeded to score 25.5ppg on 47.6%.

He upped his scoring a whole 6 points better from regular season to playoffs and people still dispute the "clutch" tag that he gets. Name me players on the same level and even those percieved to be much better that has upped their scoring numbers that drastically? Most players actually average less points in the playoffs because teams focus more defensively


And in the playoffs he is facing better teams. Reggie has proven that he could score more points with high efficiency, in the playoffs and in the regular season.

In his 3rd year he averaged 24.6 ppg with a TS of 64.5%. That is elite stuff right there. And his career average in the playoffs is 20.6 ppg (with a TS of 60%), over 2 points higher than his regular season average.

[Dro]

"one of"

now lets look at skill and impact, which have way more weight than that shit
We've spent 13 pages talking his "impact"...Whether you agree or not is your opinion but it wouldn't hurt to read the thread...

[Kblaze8855]

Once again you try to downplay the fact that 3 pointers give a team an extra point. Therefore a 3 point attempt has more value than a 2 point attempt.

Reggie's career EFG was 54.4%. That is the actual, mathematically correct number combining 2 point and 3 point shooting. If that isn't an amazing rate then what is? And where exactly did you get the 46-47% number? Your ass?

I guess Ray Allen isn't that good since his career FG% is 45.2%.

I got it from the fact that he shot .44 to .479 nine years in a row aside from one 50% shooting year on only 13.2 shots a game the first year Larry Brown told him he would no longer be the focus of the offense. If that's my ass....my ass is rather accurate.

And I have to downplay nothing. You shoot what you shoot. Ive said the same on every player ive ever discussed. Including some of my own favorites. You shoot 12 times and make 6 you shot 50%. Where you shot them from doesn't change that. But its good to know...which is why its tracked. I can look into why ___ shot ___ myself if I care to know. I know why Reggie shot mid to upper 40s in the 90s. He took a high percentage of threes.

Doesn't change the facts.


And as for Ray Allen....

Not sure where you even get "Not that good". Not like I said Reggie shouldn't be considered a legend or a hall of famer considering his incredible totals. But he isn't special compared to the people hes grouped with in the HOF. Which is...hard to even call an insult.

But anyway...ive never cared what anyone shot as much as their total performance. But if someone is gonna point out to me how well someone shoots id at least like it to be remarkable. 44-48% on 13 or so shots just is not blowing me away. And there wasn't anyone acting like it was amazing as it happened. The two years he led the NBA in TS% he wasn't even all NBA third team....and the coaches didn't select him for the all star game either.

The coaches took Mookie Blaylock, John Starks, Alvin Robertson, Hersey Hawkins, and Ricky Pierce over Reggie for those all star teams....at the top of his game. 25 one year 28 the other.

Kenny Smith, Terry Porter, Dumars, Rodman, Mark Price, Kevin Willis, and Mookie Blaylock got more MVP votes than Reggie those years.

Phil Jackson, Larry Brown, and I believe George Karl are all on record with quotes saying Derek Mckey was the best player on the Pacers at the time. I heard it from players mouths that Mark Jackson was the most important Pacer in the mid 90s. Detlef before that.

But in retrospect his shooting numbers make him special? Why exactly did the fans, coaches, and media not think so at the time? What changed in the 20 years since beyond Reggies fame making others pale in comparison?

I sat and watched nobody give a shit about Reggie Miller in his prime and rank him behind guys who wouldn't likely be all stars in this league for years. But in retrospect.....

Reggies legacy among is the greatest examples of revised opinions in sports history. There are some going the other way....like Jerry Lucas being considered as good as Russell types by a lot of people in the 60s but in retrospect nobody giving a damn he existed. But nobody makes a higher 20 years ago leap than Reggie.

I listened to respected people call Chuck Person, Detlef, Smits, and Derek Mckey the Pacers best player in/near Reggies prime but in retrospect....

The way this shit has happened his HOF plaque should almost read "In retrospect...." and end right there.

You score 25 thousand points I wont argue you shouldn't make a HOF that includes guys who merely existed on top teams or....scored points without making a difference.

I wont say Reggie made no difference. So im fine with his HOF status.

But I sat there and watched people not give two shits in his prime then start acting like he was great all along in 2002. And im not gonna pretend it didn't happen.

[Kblaze8855]

I am not the one who brought up Rose. It was the math confused Kblaze who tried to claim that Rose shot better than Reggie which is a lie. Rose has never shot better than Miller, not even in Miller's worst season.

RIF

Rose shot something like 48 and change his second year. Not checking to be exact. Better than Reggie in like 13-14 years or so. Just the way it is. Call it whatever you like.

For 80 years people would look at the records and nod in agreement. People on the internet deciding to combine numbers that never needed it before to make a "new" number in 2008 doesn't change what people shoot.

And it doesn't make 46 more than 48. You can disagree all you like. Call it a lie. Its there for all to see. Nothing made up. You want to combine free throws with shots vs defense for some reason and then act like a missed or made 3 isn't a missed or made shot because of what its worth....you do that.

You shoot X number of times you make X number of shots that's what you shoot. Calling 48 higher than 46 is not a lie. Its you not wanting to use the numbers as they are because you want it considered that Reggie took a lot of threes.

Which everyone already knows and already considers.

You throw out reliance of those numbers to make your point in the first place you wouldn't need to take offense.

Reggie has been at times better than Rose has regardless of what they shot at the time. Rose was better shooting 44% than he was shooting 48%.

But the numbers just are what they are.

[Dro]

I got it from the fact that he shot .44 to .479 nine years in a row aside from one 50% shooting year on only 13.2 shots a game the first year Larry Brown told him he would no longer be the focus of the offense. If that's my ass....my ass is rather accurate.

And I have to downplay nothing. You shoot what you shoot. Ive said the same on every player ive ever discussed. Including some of my own favorites. You shoot 12 times and make 6 you shot 50%. Where you shot them from doesn't change that. But its good to know...which is why its tracked. I can look into why ___ shot ___ myself if I care to know. I know why Reggie shot mid to upper 40s in the 90s. He took a high percentage of threes.

Doesn't change the facts.


And as for Ray Allen....

Not sure where you even get "Not that good". Not like I said Reggie shouldn't be considered a legend or a hall of famer considering his incredible totals. But he isn't special compared to the people hes grouped with in the HOF. Which is...hard to even call an insult.

But anyway...ive never cared what anyone shot as much as their total performance. But if someone is gonna point out to me how well someone shoots id at least like it to be remarkable. 44-48% on 13 or so shots just is not blowing me away. And there wasn't anyone acting like it was amazing as it happened. The two years he led the NBA in TS% he wasn't even all NBA third team....and the coaches didn't select him for the all star game either. The coaches took Mookie Blaylock, John Starks,
Alvin Robertson, Hersey Hawkins, and Ricky Pierce over Reggie for those all star teams....at the top of his game. 25 one year 28 the other.

Kenny Smith, Terry Porter, Dumars, Rodman, Mark Price, Kevin Willis, and Mookie Blaylock got more MVP votes than Reggie those years.

Phil Jackson, Larry Brown, and I believe George Karl are all on record with quotes saying Derek Mckey was the best player on the Pacers at the time.

But in retrospect his shooting numbers make him special? Why exactly did the fans, coaches, and media not think so at the time? What changed in the 20 years since beyond Reggies fame making others pale in comparison?

I sat and watched nobody give a shit about Reggie Miller in his prime and rank him behind guys who wouldn't likely be all stars in this league for years. But in retrospect.....

Reggies legacy among is the greatest examples of revised opinions in sports history. There are some going the other way....like Jerry Lucas being considered as good as Russell types by a lot of people in the 60s but in retrospect nobody giving a damn he existed. But nobody makes a higher 20 years ago leap than Reggie.

I listened to respected people call Chuck Person, Detlef, Smits, and Derek Mckey the Pacers best player in/near Reggies prime but in retrospect....

The way this shit has happened his HOF plaque should almost read "In retrospect...." and end right there.

You score 25 thousand points I wont argue you shouldn't make a HOF that includes guys who merely existed on top teams or....scored points without making a difference.

I wont say Reggie made no difference. So im fine with his HOF status.

But I sat there and watched people not give two shits in his prime then start acting like he was great all along in 2002. And im not gonna pretend it didn't happen.
Your opinion is what it is..obviously nothing is going to change that and its getting tiring going back and forth saying the same sh*t over and over....But I've lived dead in the middle of this city my entire life and Reggie was always considered the best player on this team until he was past his prime..He is King in this city as far as the Pacers go..He was featured on the Hardwood Heroes with his peers, Pippen, Stockton, Richmond, Tim Hardaway, and Gary Payton..And all of those guys were either sidekicks or played with other great players, run TMC, Payton and Kemp, Stockton and Malone, Jerry Sloan as coach. Richmond is the exception when he played in Sac, he was the man there...That DVD appears as a way to give some players who weren't superstars some shine...And that DVD came out in 2006.

Chuck was the man when Reggie got there...Even Tisdale avg 19 ppg back then..Reggie became the best Pacer in 1989 while Chuck was still on the team avg. close to 20 and they had gotten Detlef by now who was avg. around 16ppg if I remember.

Sometimes it was more important to feature Rik, sure Mckey was a facilitator....Any true Pacer fan will tell you McKey was the most frustrating player in the team's history. Definitely wouldn't call him the best Pacer in any year. I know what some coaches said and I don't really care....Its not all revisionist history, at least not in this state....But this thread has pretty much run its course...Everything that can be said has pretty much been said and nobody's opinion will change...

[Kblaze8855]

Sure he was in Hardwood Heroes. Because as you said it came out after he was gone. I have virtually every NBA VHS and DVD that ever came out. And guess which ones he was NOT on?

The ones that came out during his prime. The first 3 NBA superstar dvds had a lot of true superstars(MJ, Ewing, Magic and so on) and then Chris Mullin, Kenny Anderson, Larry Johnson, Dan Majerle, Gary Payton, and Zo.

As usual...Reggie slips in in retrospect. Not at the time in question. I believe he was in a big shot VHS late in his career as well. That one also had Robert Horry and a feature on Steve Kerr.

And im sure you don't care what coaces say. And im 100% sure fans in Indy would say Reggie was the best Pacer the entire time. What fanbase doesn't prop up the guy scoring the most and the guy with heroic shots? Its the thing for kids and barely into the game types to do. Which is what most fanbases are.

But I never have and never will minimize a coaches opinion on his own team. Especially not one the likes of Larry Brown. Larry has given 50 years to the game in the ABA, college, and NBA. Hes one of the great teachers we ever had and one of the most respected men in the sport. If Larry Brown sit and watches 500 practices, every game from 20 feet away, and creates offensive and defensive outlines for a team and tells me something....im not gonna say hes wrong because I watched his team play 16 times while hanging out with my friends.

Larry, Phil Jackson, and George Karl all tell me Mckey is the best player....I might not agree. I know I wouldn't at the time. Im not gonna assume I have a better bases to form my opinion though.

The facts are the facts. Reggie was just NOT considered that good in his day. A respected big shot maker? Sure. but people watched him make them then put Mookie Blaylock ahead of him. Im not gonna pretend people online see 1993 more clearly now than the people of 1993.

Reggies status is in fact much greater in retrospect. He became a media sensation and has been a star ever since. But you want to get real...into the real rankings and start evaluating players ability to play ball
and what those charged with evaluating that thought....you get a very different picture than that painted by fans 20 years later.

And I suspect you are right and this wont go anywhere. But I never gona stop giving credit to the marginalized greats who just failed to get on TV because the 35 they dropped was in beating Kreems Lakers or Malones Jazz and not losing to the Knicks in spectacular fashion in front of a celebrity superfan who goes on to produce specials about it.

Ive always been an advocate of the forgotten greats. And nobody benefits more from the greatness of others being forgotten than the likes of Reggie Miller.

It bugged me in the 90s. It bugs me now. Dennis Johnson is a inals MVP, 5-6 time all star, all NBA first team, 9-10 time all D team, hit finals game winners and had game winning defensive plays there as well...also had 20+ a game playoff runs t the finals and led the Suns to 50+ wins so you cant even credit the Sonics and Celtics for him being a winner. Has to score, pass, and guard Michael, Magic, and Isiah. Play the right way every night of his life.


He has to die to make the HOF. Couldn't go in with his peers tll its a pity vote.

Some are famous forever over doing less in more spectacular fashion in a media circus. In the greatest guard topics we did a while back I mention DJ and get "Dennis ****ing Johnson? lol" replies and rolling emoicons as Reggie is voted in by people who don't remember either of them.


It isn't fair. Not that...life usually is. But it still bugs me.

[tontoz]

I got it from the fact that he shot .44 to .479 nine years in a row aside from one 50% shooting year on only 13.2 shots a game the first year Larry Brown told him he would no longer be the focus of the offense. If that's my ass....my ass is rather accurate.

And I have to downplay nothing. You shoot what you shoot. Ive said the same on every player ive ever discussed. Including some of my own favorites. You shoot 12 times and make 6 you shot 50%. Where you shot them from doesn't change that. But its good to know...which is why its tracked. I can look into why ___ shot ___ myself if I care to know. I know why Reggie shot mid to upper 40s in the 90s. He took a high percentage of threes.

Doesn't change the facts.


And as for Ray Allen....

Not sure where you even get "Not that good". Not like I said Reggie shouldn't be considered a legend or a hall of famer considering his incredible totals. But he isn't special compared to the people hes grouped with in the HOF. Which is...hard to even call an insult.

But anyway...ive never cared what anyone shot as much as their total performance. But if someone is gonna point out to me how well someone shoots id at least like it to be remarkable. 44-48% on 13 or so shots just is not blowing me away. And there wasn't anyone acting like it was amazing as it happened. The two years he led the NBA in TS% he wasn't even all NBA third team....and the coaches didn't select him for the all star game either.

The coaches took Mookie Blaylock, John Starks, Alvin Robertson, Hersey Hawkins, and Ricky Pierce over Reggie for those all star teams....at the top of his game. 25 one year 28 the other.

Kenny Smith, Terry Porter, Dumars, Rodman, Mark Price, Kevin Willis, and Mookie Blaylock got more MVP votes than Reggie those years.

Phil Jackson, Larry Brown, and I believe George Karl are all on record with quotes saying Derek Mckey was the best player on the Pacers at the time. I heard it from players mouths that Mark Jackson was the most important Pacer in the mid 90s. Detlef before that.

But in retrospect his shooting numbers make him special? Why exactly did the fans, coaches, and media not think so at the time? What changed in the 20 years since beyond Reggies fame making others pale in comparison?

I sat and watched nobody give a shit about Reggie Miller in his prime and rank him behind guys who wouldn't likely be all stars in this league for years. But in retrospect.....

Reggies legacy among is the greatest examples of revised opinions in sports history. There are some going the other way....like Jerry Lucas being considered as good as Russell types by a lot of people in the 60s but in retrospect nobody giving a damn he existed. But nobody makes a higher 20 years ago leap than Reggie.

I listened to respected people call Chuck Person, Detlef, Smits, and Derek Mckey the Pacers best player in/near Reggies prime but in retrospect....

The way this shit has happened his HOF plaque should almost read "In retrospect...." and end right there.

You score 25 thousand points I wont argue you shouldn't make a HOF that includes guys who merely existed on top teams or....scored points without making a difference.

I wont say Reggie made no difference. So im fine with his HOF status.

But I sat there and watched people not give two shits in his prime then start acting like he was great all along in 2002. And im not gonna pretend it didn't happen.



You really have no clue. FG% is not a valid measure of shooting ability because it penalizes guys who shoot 3s.

If a guy shoots 50% on 2s and 40% on 3s then shooting 3s hurts his FG% but improves his scoring efficiency. The more 3s he shoots, the lower his FG% will be and the better his efficiency will be.

It amazes me that a guy with almost 12k posts on a nba board doesn't understand this. This is just grade school math.

Miller shot 51.6% on 2 point shots for his career. Shooting a lot of 3s drops his FG% to 47%. Does that mean he shouldn't have shot 3s? Why do teams shoot more 3s now than in years past if it hurts their FG%?

[Kblaze8855]

No number is a measure of shooting ability. They are a measure of what went in and what didn't. Which is all they need to be. Anyone who think they can properly evaluate a shooter using them is an idiot.

And ive been here since Kobe was the age Anthony Davis is now. I assure you....this subject is nothing new to me. I'll tell you what I said the first time I saw it....

When its made of numbers we already have...just show me the numbers you combine to make it and ill decide based on that and having seen the player what I think.

I don't care if its Jordan, Reggie, Kareem, or Steve Kerr. I never gave two shits about these numbers. I barely even care about field goal percentage when its obvious the player in question is better than it suggests or worse.

You shoot what you shoot. Reduce your reliance on the number and you wouldn't take offense to begin with. If we didn't track shooting numbers at all id know Reggie Miller was a great shooter. And so would you.

[Dro]

Sure he was in Hardwood Heroes. Because as you said it came out after he was gone. I have virtually every NBA VHS and DVD that ever came out. And guess which ones he was NOT on?

The ones that came out during his prime. The first 3 NBA superstar dvds had a lot of true superstars(MJ, Ewing, Magic and so on) and then Chris Mullin, Kenny Anderson, Larry Johnson, Dan Majerle, Gary Payton, and Zo.

As usual...Reggie slips in in retrospect. Not at the time in question. I believe he was in a big shot VHS late in his career as well. That one also had Robert Horry and a feature on Steve Kerr.

And im sure you don't care what coaces say. And im 100% sure fans in Indy would say Reggie was the best Pacer the entire time. What fanbase doesn't prop up the guy scoring the most and the guy with heroic shots? Its the thing for kids and barely into the game types to do. Which is what most fanbases are.

But I never have and never will minimize a coaches opinion on his own team. Especially not one the likes of Larry Brown. Larry has given 50 years to the game in the ABA, college, and NBA. Hes one of the great teachers we ever had and one of the most respected men in the sport. If Larry Brown sit and watches 500 practices, every game from 20 feet away, and creates offensive and defensive outlines for a team and tells me something....im not gonna say hes wrong because I watched his team play 16 times while hanging out with my friends.

Larry, Phil Jackson, and George Karl all tell me Mckey is the best player....I might not agree. I know I wouldn't at the time. Im not gonna assume I have a better bases to form my opinion though.

The facts are the facts. Reggie was just NOT considered that good in his day. A respected big shot maker? Sure. but people watched him make them then put Mookie Blaylock ahead of him. Im not gonna pretend people online see 1993 more clearly now than the people of 1993.

Reggies status is in fact much greater in retrospect. He became a media sensation and has been a star ever since. But you want to get real...into the real rankings and start evaluating players ability to play ball
and what those charged with evaluating that thought....you get a very different picture than that painted by fans 20 years later.

And I suspect you are right and this wont go anywhere. But I never gona stop giving credit to the marginalized greats who just failed to get on TV because the 35 they dropped was in beating Kreems Lakers or Malones Jazz and not losing to the Knicks in spectacular fashion in front of a celebrity superfan who goes on to produce specials about it.

Ive always been an advocate of the forgotten greats. And nobody benefits more from the greatness of others being forgotten than the likes of Reggie Miller.

It bugged me in the 90s. It bugs me now. Dennis Johnson is a inals MVP, 5-6 time all star, all NBA first team, 9-10 time all D team, hit finals game winners and had game winning defensive plays there as well...also had 20+ a game playoff runs t the finals and led the Suns to 50+ wins so you cant even credit the Sonics and Celtics for him being a winner. Has to score, pass, and guard Michael, Magic, and Isiah. Play the right way every night of his life.


He has to die to make the HOF. Couldn't go in with his peers tll its a pity vote.

Some are famous forever over doing less in more spectacular fashion in a media circus. In the greatest guard topics we did a while back I mention DJ and get "Dennis ****ing Johnson? lol" replies and rolling emoicons as Reggie is voted in by people who don't remember either of them.


It isn't fair. Not that...life usually is. But it still bugs me.
Reggie did not play with any other hall of famers and whether anyone thinks so or not, he WAS considered the 1st option...He's got 2 guys chasing him around screens sometimes...Those other guys were not 1st option for most of their careers like he was...

And lets not act like Larry Brown was some flawless judge of players, this is the same coach that wouldn't even put Jalen Rose in the game, a player who turned out to be an integral part of the team's success...You don't think Reggie was considered that good when he played...I saw him step up seemingly whenever he really needed to, not just for numbers or personal glory..I disagree with you...:confusedshrug: Oh well...

[Kblaze8855]

First option and best player are not the same thing. Which is likely why so many coaches don't have the same opinion as fans on who a teams best players are. Besides there were several years Reggie wasn't even first option. He just played more minutes than the guy the team ran through.

And nobody is flawless. But as I said.....when a guy spends 9 months a year watching 12 guys play ball 5-6 days a week and is charged with judging and deploying them as he sees fit...and has given 50 years of his life to learning and teaching the game....

Im generally gonna defer. I watch a lot of games and have an absurd number of basketball videos and clips....so im gonna scoff at Larry Brown who has lived for the game from 20 feet away for 5 decades?

No. I might not agree. Im not gonna act like I know better and I sure as hell wont act like fans who don't even care as much as I do know better.


The list of things I can imagine Larry Brown, Phil Jackson, and George Karl all agreeing on while I think otherwise is probably short. And id shut my mouth on all of them. Ive watched about 25 years. They have been hands on with the game for a combined 130. Im gonna give them their due respect.

Some kid on ISH tells me im wrong....**** it. Larry Brown and Phil Jackson tell me...im gonna give it some thought. Nobody knows all.

Some know more.

[tontoz]

No number is a measure of shooting ability. They are a measure of what went in and what didn't. Which is all they need to be. Anyone who think they can properly evaluate a shooter using them is an idiot.



Wow, your determination to avoid the obvious is amazing.

I'll ask this again. Why do teams shoot more 3s now than in years past if it hurts their FG%?

[Kblaze8855]

Ive probably made 300 posts over the years on why I don't use shooting percentage to evaluate players. Yet here I am with you asking me questions like that as if I said I judge a player by shooting percentage.

I don't just players on FG%...TS%...efg...none of it. Never have. Outside extreme cases I don't even need to know.

But it is what it is. You take 10 shots and make 5 you shot 50%. Other guy takes 10 and makes 4....he shot worse.

You not liking the fact that 48 is a bigger number than 46 is irrelevant. Calling it a lie is just not true.

[tontoz]

Ive probably made 300 posts over the years on why I don't use shooting percentage to evaluate players. Yet here I am with you asking me questions like that as if I said I judge a player by shooting percentage.

I don't just players on FG%...TS%...efg...none of it. Never have. Outside extreme cases I don't even need to know.

But it is what it is. You take 10 shots and make 5 you shot 50%. Other guy takes 10 and makes 4....he shot worse.

You not liking the fact that 48 is a bigger number than 46 is irrelevant. Calling it a lie is just not true.



LMAO you don't even realize that you contradicted yourself.

'i never use shooting percentages but if one guy shoots 50%...' :wtf:


Yet you spent the last several days downplaying Reggie's shooting using FG% and now you are trying to say you dont use shooting percentages? Isn't it a little early to be drunk?

Reminds me of that scene from Caddyshack:

Chevy "You're not being the ball Danny".

Danny "It's kind of hard with you talking"

Chevy "I've stopped talking.....not talking now...."

[Just2McFly]

We've spent 13 pages talking his "impact"...Whether you agree or not is your opinion but it wouldn't hurt to read the thread...
I've read the thread. You guys have spent 13 pages overrating the shit out of miller. Fact is, his impact just isn't nearly as great as most players in the top 100 of all time. It's his longevity that gives him a case to be up there.

I don't necessarily think he's a legendary player, he's a HOF player no doubt, but could be argued outside a top ten SG of all time or anything like that.

All you guys keep talking about how clutch he is as if that's something that's not mostly subjective and when I gave a list of players with a larger resume of game winning shots /carrying their team down the stretch you guys ridicule and laugh instead of debate.

The man was tenacious, shot 3's and had some great moments, but don't let that get to your head.

You guys are hopeless.

[pauk]

I think you are confusing "Legend" with "GOAT/Top 10" or something.... A legend is a story describing plausible but extraordinary past events.... which Reggie had, plentiful....

Now you can debate all you want but i have seen as much as possible from him live and i can honestly say i have not seen somebody hit more gamewinning jumpers during the 90s and after his retirement.. there is no data on that, thankfully (for guys who think MJ had the most), but i wouldnt and you shouldnt be surprised if he did hit the most gamewinners in NBA history.... He was the Pacers go-to-guy for 18 straight years in the 4th quarter/clutch & he was terribly consistant in that facet, rarely missing games aswell.... and for those 18 straight years he was known as the best shooter in the NBA and for many enough also clutch player...

He is to me the greatest shooter, clutch shooter ever with 18 years of memorable moments.... on top of that he was a very unique character with his trashtalking, drama and vicious competitiveness which allowed him to get under the skin of anybody (including MJ) to the point where they would mentally crumble & choke/underperform during a game.... if you were not a fan of Reggie it was sometimes like watching a horror movie but where the villain wins at the end..... he was one of those guys who would hit a gamewinner on MJ and then walk by him saying like: "Nice 40 points though...... at least you are better than me huh?" lol, I am serious...
that player would then go home and do nothing but think about that damn **** Reggie the entire night....
There is just some intangibles you cant measure in stats which actually impacts the game dramatically....

...and yes he averaged 18 ppg, but the thing is most (if not all) of those would he unleash in the 4th and 1-3 ppg of those could be clutch/gamewinners per game... :)

He was beloved due to his loyalness aswell and hence all in all retired the way literally every player in the league dream of.... did you see the ending of his last game against Pistons? Thats not a way you treat somebody who wasnt a legend....

A bit OT maybe but Reggie was kindof a rolemodel/teacher in my basketball "career" aswell due to his work ethic and mostly because i could just learn by just watching his games.... you see Reggie was the greatest off the ball player/screen abuser ever, he had the most ridicilous bag of tricks he would use to get open & his cardio was like that of a marathon runner, he then just needed a millisecond to release his shot at 6'7" and swish!.... it was therefore essentially extremly gruesome to try and guard him (ask Kobe, who said Reggie was the toughest guy he ever had to guard and he did guard MJ, mind you, Kobe knows very well...) and im sure you heard Rip Hamilton & Ray Allen reveal that their screen/off the ball plays came by "stealing" Reggies moves aswell...

[Reggie43]

I've read the thread. You guys have spent 13 pages overrating the shit out of miller. Fact is, his impact just isn't nearly as great as most players in the top 100 of all time. It's his longevity that gives him a case to be up there.

I don't necessarily think he's a legendary player, he's a HOF player no doubt, but could be argued outside a top ten SG of all time or anything like that.

All you guys keep talking about how clutch he is as if that's something that's not mostly subjective and when I gave a list of players with a larger resume of game winning shots /carrying their team down the stretch you guys ridicule and laugh instead of debate.

The man was tenacious, shot 3's and had some great moments, but don't let that get to your head.

You guys are hopeless.

Your "list" of players that you claimed have a larger resume in gamewinning shots/carrying their team down the stretch guys included two roleplayers in Fisher and Horry, Ray Allen and Allen Iverson who both lost twice to Miller in the playoffs while being outplayed in the series and outperformed in the clutch, Carmelo Anthony who went to the playoffs 10 times, 8 of them losing in the first round, Paul Pierce who lost a playoff series versus a Pacers team ravaged by injuries and suspensions post brawl and featuring a 39 year old Miller scoring 28 and 33pts respectively in two pacers wins that eventually led to them beating boston in 2005. Other players you listed included Wade, Lebron, Kobe and Dirk which I wont bother to list their share of playoff failures because everyone knows them.

You claimed to have read this thread yet you failed to see the numerous gamewinners and huge clutch games by Miller posted by other people? Even Kblaze noted that Miller hit 14 gamewinners in a single season which is something I posted 4 years ago as a newbie poster and was told to get off the thread probably because it was too unbelievable to have happened, too "legendary". He may not have won a championship but if it comes to clutch resume few people comes close

[davehos]

These young folks think that to be great Miller should have teamed up with Malone and Stockton to form the Miami Heat so they could finally beat the Bulls.

Miller pulled off his stats by being THE MAN on the Pacers. Let that sink in a little bit... the PACERS. Who else was with Reggie in the 90s worth noting? Mark Jackson? Detlef Schrempf was only there a couple years.

LeBron couldn't cope in Cleveland being "THE MAN" and there is "no doubt" he's legendary, right?

Miller was NY Knicks kryptonite in a time when NY Knicks were one of the NBAs best teams. He's legendary for that alone ... Spike Lee probably wanted to strangle him at center court in MSG.

[diamenz]

miller is a legend in his own regard... he was also a thrill to watch. not to mention that game winner in mj's face was some sh!t to see.

[Legends66NBA7]

These young folks think that to be great Miller should have teamed up with Malone and Stockton to form the Miami Heat so they could finally beat the Bulls.

Miller pulled off his stats by being THE MAN on the Pacers. Let that sink in a little bit... the PACERS. Who else was with Reggie in the 90s worth noting? Mark Jackson? Detlef Schrempf was only there a couple years.

LeBron couldn't cope in Cleveland being "THE MAN" and there is "no doubt" he's legendary, right?

Miller was NY Knicks kryptonite in a time when NY Knicks were one of the NBAs best teams. He's legendary for that alone ... Spike Lee probably wanted to strangle him at center court in MSG.

No, people just have higher standards of who is great and who isn't. Like I said before, Miller regarded because of shooting and as other have brought up, longevity in which I agree too.

Fact is, Miller isn't great when it discussed as who was the best in the NBA, which I'm pretty sure he never was brought up. He would be barely be regarded as a Top 20 player in the 90's, let alone every other era of basketball. It's hard to call him a legend in anything else outside of what he's best known for.

[davehos]

He [Miller]would be barely be regarded as a Top 20 player in the 90's, let alone every other era of basketball.

Barely a top 20 player in the 90s? You a Knicks fan?

:coleman:

[Legends66NBA7]

Barely a top 20 player in the 90s? You a Knicks fan?

:coleman:

I'm a Raptors fan.

Who would have been clearly ranked over him in the 90's if were talking about 20 players ?

[tontoz]

That era had some great players. i don't even know how i would rank Miller in the 90s. Looking strictly at guys who are better than Miller without question.

Jordan/Drexler at the 2
Magic/Stockton at pg (some other strong candidates at pg)
Pippen/Bird at the 3
Malone/Barkley at the 4
Drob/Hakeem/Zo/Ewing/Shaq at center, extremely stacked at that position


That is 13. Then there are a lot of guys who would generate a lot of debate that i wont even get into. But i wouldn't say it is a given that Miller was top 20 in that era.

[Reggie43]

No, people just have higher standards of who is great and who isn't. Like I said before, Miller regarded because of shooting and as other have brought up, longevity in which I agree too.

Fact is, Miller isn't great when it discussed as who was the best in the NBA, which I'm pretty sure he never was brought up. He would be barely be regarded as a Top 20 player in the 90's, let alone every other era of basketball. It's hard to call him a legend in anything else outside of what he's best known for.

As a few people have said you are confusing being "legendary" with also being a great overall player which are two different things.

I agree that he would be barely a top 20 players in the 90s in terms of overall talent/skill but given the same situation few players who played the bulk of their careers in the 90s would have accomplished as much as he has.