Chris Bosh

[supermechasonic]

While Everyone is debating about the whether or not Lebron should have passed the ball or not we are neglecting the abject failure of Bosh on the court today. He NEVER shows up against teams with legit bigs. Bosh has no heart. I'm not exaggerating. He has ZERO spirit.

Wade did not fare much better either. I don't trust this heat team. They are much too reliant on Lebron who, despite making a questionable play at the end, still scored 46% of his team's points today. Not mention he lead them in rebounds and assists.

They are VERY beatable. I give them a 35% chance of winning it all. Spurs looking like the best team in the league.

[selrahc]

not really his fault, bosh isnt a center

but at least he has balls to take the last shot, unlike a certain someone else on the team

[FLDFSU]

But ISH told me that Heat are stacked. How is it possible for one player to score 1/2 the team points while leading them in rebounds and assists.

Oh, and this thread will be locked.

[russwest0]

now taking the last shot is a bad thing? :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Bron got yall ****ed up

[Milbuck]

Bosh being ineffective against a 7'2" near 300 pound monster doesn't mean he doesn't have heart. He's a finesse power forward being forced to play center. It's not his fault.

[supermechasonic]

That excuse only goes so far selrahc and milbuck. He should be able to get more than 4 rebounds and score more than 8 points on better than 27% shooting

[FLDFSU]

Bosh being ineffective against a 7'2" near 300 pound monster doesn't mean he doesn't have heart. He's a finesse power forward being forced to play center. It's not his fault.

He gets paid a 100 million, is a 9 time all-star, and some considers him a superstar...

You think it is too much to ask for him to score in the double digits and not get out rebounded by his SF? His SF who already is playing the most minutes, scoring the most points, and getting the most assists.

[supermechasonic]

Exactly what FLDSU said.

Furthermore, whats the point of sitting Wade if he only scores a mediocre 15 points?

[Jacks3]

LeBron should leave. He had to carry Bosh and Wade last post-season, and he'll probably have to do it again in the upcoming playoffs. Those two are pathetic, especially that overrated clown Wade. 15 pts and 6 turnovers. Embarrassing.

[oh the horror]

Bosh is what he is.


What I'm thinking about watching Wade today is, how is this guy gonna go trough the playoffs with his body breaking down?

[AnaheimLakers24]

this is what bran does to your playing style

[plowking]

With Bosh, they clearly need to sit and rethink the gameplan.

Seriously... He is a non factor against Indiana. At one point, you have to sit down, and realize, we need this guy to be doing something out there. He is usually trash on offense against them, and even worse on defense.
Change the shit up Spo. You're the coach, and the one the players look to.

We've tried floating him around on offense. Get him inside, pushing, pulling, bumping, hitting. It might not be his game, but shit, if that works, then it is his game. Tire the other bigs on Indiana out. Him floating around and spotting up isn't going to do that.

[JohnFreeman]

Bosh and Oden need to do some defensive drills

[Akrazotile]

Bosh and Oden need to do some defensive drills


Im sure Bosh would be delighted to have Oden drill him.

[Milbuck]

He gets paid a 100 million, is a 9 time all-star, and some considers him a superstar...

You think it is too much to ask for him to score in the double digits and not get out rebounded by his SF? His SF who already is playing the most minutes, scoring the most points, and getting the most assists.
You mean his "SF" who just so happens to be 6'8" 260 pounds of muscle, possibly the most physically gifted athlete in the history of basketball, and arguably the best player in the world?

If you can't understand the concept of roles, I don't know what to tell you. Despite the numbers he put up in Toronto, he has never been the kind of guy to outmuscle other bigs and crash the boards. He was, is, and most likely always will be a finesse-oriented, and dare I say it, soft player. And when he's forced out of his comfort zone and not put in a position to succeed - when he's forced to go head to head with a monster of a center like Hibbert, he's just not gonna do well.

Also, find me these numerous people you're talking about who claim Bosh is a superstar, and that he's a consistent 28-10 player or whatever you said in another thread (might not have been you, but someone definitely said it). And I'm talking serious posters too, I don't give a shit about what trolls say.

[Trollsmasher]

Bosh being ineffective against a 7'2" near 300 pound monster doesn't mean he doesn't have heart. He's a finesse power forward being forced to play center. It's not his fault.
he played against West most of the night:facepalm

[supermechasonic]

Milbuck,

I get what you are saying and it goes a ways in explaining Bosh's woeful play.

But still, he CAN do more and he has to do more. As plowking said, a lot of it goes on the coaching staff. But still, he can grab at LEAST 7 rebounds and score 12-15 points.

I recall him scoring 0 points in game 7 of the finals and getting virtually no blame whatsoever. That needs to stop.

[Milbuck]

he played against West most of the night:facepalm
1) It doesn't matter who he went against individually. Hibbert doesn't match up with Lebron, yet he causes him all kinds of trouble.

2) Anyways, West isn't much better. He's makes normal big men look like kids, but he looks like a ****ing tank compared to Bosh.

[FLDFSU]

You mean his "SF" who just so happens to be 6'8" 260 pounds of muscle, possibly the most physically gifted athlete in the history of basketball, and arguably the best player in the world?

If you can't understand the concept of roles, I don't know what to tell you. Despite the numbers he put up in Toronto, he has never been the kind of guy to outmuscle other bigs and crash the boards. He was, is, and most likely always will be a finesse-oriented, and dare I say it, soft player. And when he's forced out of his comfort zone and not put in a position to succeed - when he's forced to go head to head with a monster of a center like Hibbert, he's just not gonna do well.

Also, find me these numerous people you're talking about who claim Bosh is a superstar, and that he's a consistent 28-10 player or whatever you said in another thread (might not have been you, but someone definitely said it). And I'm talking serious posters too, I don't give a shit about what trolls say.

TheMarkMadsen
selrahc
Mr. Jabbar
teddytwelvetoes
Twiens
Y2Gezee

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=291258


If you want I can find more...

[Milbuck]

Milbuck,

I get what you are saying and it goes a ways in explaining Bosh's woeful play.

But still, he CAN do more and he has to do more. As plowking said, a lot of it goes on the coaching staff. But still, he can grab at LEAST 7 rebounds and score 12-15 points.
I'm not entirely defending Bosh's awful play against Indiana - he can certainly do better. I'm just saying that it's not 100% his fault, a lot of the issues are out of his immediate control.

I do agree that 12-15/7 isn't asking for too much though.

[FLDFSU]

You mean his "SF" who just so happens to be 6'8" 260 pounds of muscle, possibly the most physically gifted athlete in the history of basketball, and arguably the best player in the world?

If you can't understand the concept of roles, I don't know what to tell you. Despite the numbers he put up in Toronto, he has never been the kind of guy to outmuscle other bigs and crash the boards. He was, is, and most likely always will be a finesse-oriented, and dare I say it, soft player. And when he's forced out of his comfort zone and not put in a position to succeed - when he's forced to go head to head with a monster of a center like Hibbert, he's just not gonna do well.

Also, find me these numerous people you're talking about who claim Bosh is a superstar, and that he's a consistent 28-10 player or whatever you said in another thread (might not have been you, but someone definitely said it). And I'm talking serious posters too, I don't give a shit about what trolls say.

And to your points: So because Lebron James is 6'8 260 it is okay for Bosh---who plays center---to grab 4 rebounds?

Bosh, who is not responsible to for scoring the most points, playing the most minutes, having the offense run through him, or running the offense.

At this point, Bosh isn't even the 2nd option. Heck, with Ray Allen on the court, he might not even be the 3rd option.

Sorry, as a Heat fan, I expect a little more out of my $100 million dollar C/PF.

[FLDFSU]

You mean his "SF" who just so happens to be 6'8" 260 pounds of muscle, possibly the most physically gifted athlete in the history of basketball, and arguably the best player in the world?

If you can't understand the concept of roles, I don't know what to tell you. Despite the numbers he put up in Toronto, he has never been the kind of guy to outmuscle other bigs and crash the boards. He was, is, and most likely always will be a finesse-oriented, and dare I say it, soft player. And when he's forced out of his comfort zone and not put in a position to succeed - when he's forced to go head to head with a monster of a center like Hibbert, he's just not gonna do well.

Also, find me these numerous people you're talking about who claim Bosh is a superstar, and that he's a consistent 28-10 player or whatever you said in another thread (might not have been you, but someone definitely said it). And I'm talking serious posters too, I don't give a shit about what trolls say.

One final thing. How embarrassed would KG be if Paul Pierce consistently out-rebounded him while also scoring less and having less assist than Pierce?

KG would probably retire out of embarrassment after handing over his check to Pierce.

[aj1987]

You mean his "SF" who just so happens to be 6'8" 260 pounds of muscle, possibly the most physically gifted athlete in the history of basketball, and arguably the best player in the world?

If you can't understand the concept of roles, I don't know what to tell you. Despite the numbers he put up in Toronto, he has never been the kind of guy to outmuscle other bigs and crash the boards. He was, is, and most likely always will be a finesse-oriented, and dare I say it, soft player. And when he's forced out of his comfort zone and not put in a position to succeed - when he's forced to go head to head with a monster of a center like Hibbert, he's just not gonna do well.

Also, find me these numerous people you're talking about who claim Bosh is a superstar, and that he's a consistent 28-10 player or whatever you said in another thread (might not have been you, but someone definitely said it). And I'm talking serious posters too, I don't give a shit about what trolls say.
Come on, bro. LeBron adjusted his game after coming to Miami. Wade adjusted his game to accommodate both LeBron and Bosh on his team. Bosh should do the same as well. He can't play the same way that he did in Toronto. I remember a couple of months ago (last season), dude was whining about playing center and having to bang (no joke) with the other bigs. Dude is SOFT as ****. He can take NO physical abuse. I would expect a max player, who's 6'11" and 260 to do more.

[Milbuck]

Come on, bro. LeBron adjusted his game after coming to Miami. Wade adjusted his game to accommodate both LeBron and Bosh on his team. Bosh should do the same as well. He can't play the same way that he did in Toronto. I remember a couple of months ago (last season), dude was whining about playing center and having to bang (no joke) with the other bigs. Dude is SOFT as ****. He can take NO physical abuse. I would expect a max player, who's 6'11" and 260 to do more.
Yeah, but that mode of thought is dependent on the claim that Bosh = Bron/Wade. Lebron is a generational talent, arguably more talented than Jordan. Wade is a first ballot hall of famer, a former championship leader and an elite all-time great in his own right. Bosh is merely a perennial all-star in the weakest big man era in a long time. He's a very good player. But to expect him to adapt the way Lebron and Wade have is a bit unfair.

He's not 260 pounds. He's relatively slim and really not that strong. And anyways, some people are just born that way. Not everyone has the tenacity of Dennis Rodman or Ben Wallace, guys who could be undersized. and still be one-man wrecking crews in the paint. And the max contract isn't on him. He's expected to look for his money, and they gave it to him. His skills were known clearly before he signed, and they shouldn't have signed him to that deal if they were expecting some rebounding/defensive monster in the paint.

[Milbuck]

One final thing. How embarrassed would KG be if Paul Pierce consistently out-rebounded him while also scoring less and having less assist than Pierce?

KG would probably retire out of embarrassment after handing over his check to Pierce.
Well that's irrelevant, considering that KG is one of the best rebounders of all time for his position, and that Pierce at his best as a perimeter scorer was one of the best in the league.

Despite his stats, Bosh has never been a top-tier rebounder or scorer. While Lebron has been absolutely phenomenal in all areas for his position. To be outdone by Lebron is really not that embarrassing.

[FLDFSU]

Come on, bro. LeBron adjusted his game after coming to Miami. Wade adjusted his game to accommodate both LeBron and Bosh on his team. Bosh should do the same as well. He can't play the same way that he did in Toronto. I remember a couple of months ago (last season), dude was whining about playing center and having to bang (no joke) with the other bigs. Dude is SOFT as ****. He can take NO physical abuse. I would expect a max player, who's 6'11" and 260 to do more.

Exactly. What did KG do upon going to Boston? He said, Pierce has the ball handling and scoring, Ray has scoring and stretching the defense, Rondo has to set up the offense and assists...

KG said, I am going to focus on rebounding and being the anchor of our defense. And if they double Pierce or Allen, I will kill them inside.

At some point, Chris Bosh has to have some professional pride--like KG. How you letting your SF, who already has scoring and assists responsibilities, out rebounding you too?

If you going concede rebounding to Lebron too, you might as well start conceding some of your salary to him as well.

[Milbuck]

Exactly. What did KG do upon going to Boston? He said, Pierce has the ball handling and scoring, Ray has scoring and stretching the defense, Rondo has to set up the offense and assists...

KG said, I am going to focus on rebounding and being the anchor of our defense. And if they double Pierce or Allen, I will kill them inside.

At some point, Chris Bosh has to have some professional pride--like KG. How you letting your SF, who already has scoring and assists responsibilities, out rebounding you too?

If you going concede rebounding to Lebron too, you might as well start conceding some of your salary to him as well.
Once again, your argument lacks consistency.

It's incredibly easy for Kevin Garnett to relieve himself of duties and adapt to becoming a pure defensive anchor and rebounder. You know why? Because that's who he is. He has always (well when he was good) been an all-time great defensive anchor and rebounder. To suggest like he put in this monumental effort into changing his game to suit the team needs is simply ludicrous. All he did was focus more intensely on the things he did best.

Bosh HAS NEVER been an elite rebounder or scorer, despite his inflated stats in Toronto. Not only that, but Bosh is simply not on KG's level as a basketball player. Him becoming a defensive anchor and great rebounder has absolutely no relevance to KG's efforts in Boston, we're talking two completely different situations.

[FLDFSU]

Yeah, but that mode of thought is dependent on the claim that Bosh = Bron/Wade. Lebron is a generational talent, arguably more talented than Jordan. Wade is a first ballot hall of famer, a former championship leader and an elite all-time great in his own right. Bosh is merely a perennial all-star in the weakest big man era in a long time. He's a very good player. But to expect him to adapt the way Lebron and Wade have is a bit unfair.

He's not 260 pounds. He's relatively slim and really not that strong. And anyways, some people are just born that way. Not everyone has the tenacity of Dennis Rodman or Ben Wallace, guys who could be undersized. and still be one-man wrecking crews in the paint. And the max contract isn't on him. He's expected to look for his money, and they gave it to him. His skills were known clearly before he signed, and they shouldn't have signed him to that deal if they were expecting some rebounding/defensive monster in the paint.

If it is a bit unfair for the 3rd (sometimes 4th option) to consistently grab double digit rebounds 1. on the worst rebounding team in the NBA and 2. in a era of "historically weak bigs"

What the hell is he doing accepting $100 million (same as Wade and Lebron) and dancing on the stage at the welcome party 3.5 years ago?

Is Miami called "Big 3" or the "Big 2 and Bosh"?

[Milbuck]

If it is a bit unfair for the 3rd (sometimes 4th option) to consistently grab double digit rebounds 1. on the worst rebounding team in the NBA and 2. in a era of "historically weak bigs"

What the hell is he doing accepting $100 million (same as Wade and Lebron) and dancing on the stage at the welcome party 3.5 years ago?

Is Miami called "Big 3" or the "Big 2 and Bosh"?
1) Chris Bosh did not name them the Big 3. I don't care what anyone calls them, it is absolutely absurd to put Bosh on the same level as Lebron and Wade.

2) Are you suggesting he should have negotiated his contract down? Why the hell would he not accept that monstrous contract? That is 100% Miami's fault. I said it once, I'll say it again - if they expected him to be a monster rebounder and defensive anchor, they shouldn't have given him the contract they did. It's not up to Bosh to haggle his own freakin contract down.

3) Yeah, he should've been a total buzzkill at the welcome party. He should've just sat in a corner pouting the whole time like a 7th grade emo kid. Forget being happy to be playing on a sure-fire championship contender with two of your closest peers. He should've been pissed about it.

[Bandito]

Milbuck killing everybody in this thread...by not trolling? :wtf:

[FLDFSU]

1) Chris Bosh did not name them the Big 3. I don't care what anyone calls them, it is absolutely absurd to put Bosh on the same level as Lebron and Wade.

2) Are you suggesting he should have negotiated his contract down? Why the hell would he not accept that monstrous contract? That is 100% Miami's fault. I said it once, I'll say it again - if they expected him to be a monster rebounder and defensive anchor, they shouldn't have given him the contract they did. It's not up to Bosh to haggle his own freakin contract down.

3) Yeah, he should've been a total buzzkill at the welcome party. He should've just sat in a corner pouting the whole time like a 7th grade emo kid. Forget being happy to be playing on a sure-fire championship contender with two of your closest peers. He should've been pissed about it.

1. Fair enough. But I listening to ISH Bosh is every bit of an all-star and one of the main reasons why the Heat "are the most stacked team in NBA history."

2. Yep. Lebron (he'll never do it) should go up to Bosh and say, "Bro, if you going to let me out score, assist, play more, have the offensive burden, and on top of that rebound you--Imma need a portion of your check."

This isn't the Miami Cavaliers or the Miami Lebrons. Pat Riley and Lebron (and Wade, etc) didn't form this team so Lebron would once again dominate his teammates in every relevant statistical category.

Bosh should either give a portion of his check to Lebron, or get traded for someone who will not allow his SF--who already does everything else-- to out rebound him too.

3. Part of the reason why the Heat were a "sure fire championship contenders" was because Bosh was expected to contribute more than 8/4 against our conference's biggest opponent. So yes, if he was not planning on adjusting his game or having some professional pride...

he should have sat is butt down in a corner and watched like the rest of us.

[aj1987]

Yeah, but that mode of thought is dependent on the claim that Bosh = Bron/Wade. Lebron is a generational talent, arguably more talented than Jordan. Wade is a first ballot hall of famer, a former championship leader and an elite all-time great in his own right. Bosh is merely a perennial all-star in the weakest big man era in a long time. He's a very good player. But to expect him to adapt the way Lebron and Wade have is a bit unfair.

He's not 260 pounds. He's relatively slim and really not that strong. And anyways, some people are just born that way. Not everyone has the tenacity of Dennis Rodman or Ben Wallace, guys who could be undersized. and still be one-man wrecking crews in the paint. And the max contract isn't on him. He's expected to look for his money, and they gave it to him. His skills were known clearly before he signed, and they shouldn't have signed him to that deal if they were expecting some rebounding/defensive monster in the paint.
He's not on LeBron's or Wade's level, but dude is talented. If he works hard, he can actually adapt. Miami doesn't need him to be a defensive anchor in the likes of Big Ben or Rodman. We just need him to grab ~8-10 boards a game. Begin aggressive on the offensive end, instead of taking 6 3 pointers a game. Box out opponents, instead of just staring at the ball. He just needs to up aggressiveness by 20% and that would do WONDERS for this Heat team. That's the only problem I have with him. Dude talks a lot about being aggressive, but never backs up his word. I actually liked him, until he turned into a complete marshmallow. Love is not big either and is not even close to being as talented as Bosh. AD? Dude is a monster and is about half of Bosh's size. 37 year old Timmy OWNED Bosh in the playoffs last season. Literally every big man DESTROYS Bosh.

Once again, I'm not talking about vast improvements. Just being a bit more aggressive. Box out opponents and grab rebounds. IIRC, Wade averaged more rebounds than Bosh against the Pacers last season. A 6' 3.5" Wade.

My bad. Dude's 245. He was ~230 and put on 15 lbs of muscle.

[supermechasonic]

I would just like to thank you all for not turning this thread into a troll-feast. :cheers:

[FLDFSU]

He's not of LeBron's of Wade's level, but good is talented. If he works hard, he can actually adapt. Miami doesn't need him to be a defensive anchor in the likes of Big Ben or Rodman. We just need him to grab ~8-10 boards a game. Begin aggressive on the offensive end, instead of taking 6 3 pointers a game. Box out opponents, instead of just staring at the ball. He just needs to up aggressiveness by 20% and that would do WONDERS for this Heat team. That's the only problem I have with him. Dude talks a lot about being aggressive, but never backs up his word. I actually liked him, until he turned into a complete marshmallow. Love is not big either and is not even close to being as talented as Bosh. AD? Dude is a monster and is about half of Bosh's size. 37 year old Timmy OWNED Bosh in the playoffs last season. Literally every big man DESTROYS Bosh.

Once again, I'm not talking about vast improvements. Just being a bit more aggressive. Box out opponents and grab rebounds. IIRC, Wade averaged more rebounds than Bosh against the Pacers last season. A 6' 3.5" Wade.

My bad. Dude's 245. He was ~230 and put on 15 lbs of muscle.

Exactly, Bosh is the first player to talk about what they need to do or what he needs to do but then never does it in the game. Last year, Bosh said that he would focus on upping his rebounds and he was going to try to average 10 per game. Instead he averaged 6.8, the lowest of his career. This year he is heading for another 6.8 average.

I am tired of Chris Bosh talking about what he needs to do and how he is going to do it.

[All Net]

Miami are stacked on names ALONE but not on actual production.

[TheReturn]

1) Chris Bosh did not name them the Big 3. I don't care what anyone calls them, it is absolutely absurd to put Bosh on the same level as Lebron and Wade.

2) Are you suggesting he should have negotiated his contract down? Why the hell would he not accept that monstrous contract? That is 100% Miami's fault. I said it once, I'll say it again - if they expected him to be a monster rebounder and defensive anchor, they shouldn't have given him the contract they did. It's not up to Bosh to haggle his own freakin contract down.

3) Yeah, he should've been a total buzzkill at the welcome party. He should've just sat in a corner pouting the whole time like a 7th grade emo kid. Forget being happy to be playing on a sure-fire championship contender with two of your closest peers. He should've been pissed about it.
I don't care what his style of play is or at who's level you put him.. Miami sure as hell didn't sign him for 100 million dollars to produce 8 points and 4 rebounds in a game like this.

[Dresta]

lol @ Milbuck desperately defending Bosh with 'don't hold it against him he's a ****ing ***** who continuously becomes non-existent in big games' bs. There is no excuse which justifies Bosh's complete inability to rebound the ball, and also his ability to even half turn-up when the Heat needs him. 8 points and 4 boards: you have to be ****ing kidding me.

[Blue&Orange]

While Everyone is debating about the whether or not Lebron should have passed the ball or not we are neglecting the abject failure of Bosh on the court today. He NEVER shows up against teams with legit bigs. Bosh has no heart. I'm not exaggerating. He has ZERO spirit.

And yet Vogel and Pop decided it was better to give Lebron open wide paint than let Bosh shoot a wide open three, basically gifting LEbron a championship.


Earned not given :applause:

[aj1987]

And yet Vogel and Pop decided it was better to give Lebron open wide paint than let Bosh shoot a wide open three, basically gifting LEbron a championship.


Earned not given :applause:
How many points did Bosh have in both the Game 7's? How many did LeBron have? Can you also post their series averages please?

[STATUTORY]

we gonna act like Bosh didn't hit a clutch 3 to kep them in the game after Bran started his hot potatoes routine?

:facepalm Bran starks

[Blue&Orange]

How many points did Bosh have in both the Game 7's? How many did LeBron have? Can you also post their series averages please?
basically you just agreed with me, just too dumb to see it.

[aj1987]

basically you just agreed with me, just too dumb to see it.
Can you also please post the number of rebounds that Bosh grabbed in the ECF, compared to Wade and LeBron? :facepalm If you think the defenses were more concerned with Bosh than LeBron. Also, the Pacers didn't give LeBron room to shoot.

I should bump some of your old posts from '10. Pretty hilarious the way you were wishing that LeBron would come to N.Y.. Shitty ass franchise, with worse fans.

[STATUTORY]

Can you also please post the number of rebounds that Bosh grabbed in the ECF, compared to Wade and LeBron? :facepalm If you think the defenses were more concerned with Bosh than LeBron. Also, the Pacers didn't give LeBron room to shoot.

I should bump some of your old posts from '10. Pretty hilarious the way you were wishing that LeBron would come to N.Y.. Shitty ass franchise, with worse fans.

how da fuq is bosh suppose to grab boards when he's by design camped out at the three point line? bran cheeses them boards cause he loves stats

:facepalm bran starks

[aj1987]

how da fuq is bosh suppose to grab boards when he's by design camped out at the three point line? bran cheeses them boards cause he loves stats

:facepalm bran starks
Watch a game, Kobetard. Bosh hardly even tries to boxout players. Dude watches the ball and only grabs it if it's uncontested and near him. Doesn't even try to bang with players down low. The guy is soft as ****. Freaking Wade grabbed more rebounds than Bosh in the ECF and he's 8 inches shorter.

Kobetards :facepalm

[FLDFSU]

how da fuq is bosh suppose to grab boards when he's by design camped out at the three point line? bran cheeses them boards cause he loves stats

:facepalm bran starks

Again with this retarded argument. Bosh guards centers on defense. How is he camped out at the three point line?

That may explain a lack of offensive rebounds...it doesn't explain a lack of defensive rebounds.