Kobe - the only member of the 2000 All-Defensive team that was a bad defender

[Artillery]

2000 RAPM came out recently. Not surprisingly, Kobe was the only player on the All-Defensive First Team that had a NEGATIVE impact on his team's defense. Here are the numbers:


2000 NBA All-Defensive First Team RAPM(RPI):

4.04 - Mourning
3.95 - Garnett
3.02 - Duncan
1.07 - Payton
-1.48 - Kobe

Mourning, Payton, Garnett are all DPOY winners. Duncan's been a consistently good defender his entire career. Makes sense to see them all appear here as good defenders. Kobe's the outlier though. Strange that someone that has 12 All-Defensive selections would rate THIS badly in defense. So what's the problem? Is Kobe's historic defense overrated? Was he always a one-way player?

[Deuce Bigalow]

OP - the only OP that was a *******

[Combat Wombat]

2000 RAPM came out recently. Not surprisingly, Kobe was the only player on the All-Defensive First Team that had a NEGATIVE impact on his team's defense. Here are the numbers:


2000 NBA All-Defensive First Team RAPM(RPI):

4.04 - Mourning
3.95 - Garnett
3.02 - Duncan
1.07 - Payton
-1.48 - Kobe

Mourning, Payton, Garnett are all DPOY winners. Duncan's been a consistently good defender his entire career. Makes sense to see them all appear here as good defenders. Kobe's the outlier though. Strange that someone that has 12 All-Defensive selections would rate THIS badly in defense. So what's the problem? Is Kobe's historic defense overrated? Was he always a one-way player?

1800 posts and not one of them have shown any signs of intelligence.

You make Forest Gump look like Albert f#cking Einstein.

[Artillery]

Everybody on the All-Defensive Second Team that year were ALSO rated as good defenders according to RAPM:

2000 NBA All-Defensive Second Team RAPM(RPI):

3.47 - Eddie Jones
1.27 - Shaq
0.76 - Kidd
0.44 - Pippen
0.37 - Cliff Robinson

:applause: Solid numbers for Shaq. Along with being the best offensive player in the league, he was also the defensive anchor on the Lakers.

It's starting to look like Kobe never was an impactful defender at ANY point in his career and that his all-defensive selections were undeserved. It's no coincidence that he's the only player on either team that had a negative impact on D. With advanced stats like RAPM becoming more and more commonplace, Kobe's reputation as a good defender is going to diminish in the coming years.

[swagga]

artillery bullying stans in this thread tbh.

we all know chuckbe only cares about his ppg, nothing new here.

[fiddy]

stats>>watching games

seems legit

[necya]

to me, it was the year when he deserved it the most :rolleyes: he put the same energy on both hands of the floor

[Artillery]

artillery bullying stans in this thread tbh.

we all know chuckbe only cares about his ppg, nothing new here.

:cheers:

The common belief was that Sidekickbe(2000-2002) was the period when Kobe was at his defensive peak. The stats tell us he was always an overrated defender.

[Nashty]

Nothing new here, Chuckbe is the most overrated player ever :cheers:

[Im Still Ballin]

Nothing new here, Chuckbe is the most overrated player ever :cheers:

T-H-I-S.

[9erempiree]

Made up numbers and nobody knows what those numbers mean.

:facepalm

[Dro]

Made up numbers and nobody knows what those numbers mean.

:facepalm
:facepalm

[aj1987]

1800 posts and not one of them have shown any signs of intelligence.

You make Forest Gump look like Albert f#cking Einstein.
Are you actually gonna post anything about the game? I know that you're an alt, but an alt dedicated to just insult people? Pathetic.

[MMM]

kobe was good when he played with effort but obviously that wasn't every game and became more rare as he aged. Other than 01-04 don't think he played above an above average level. In the 08 final i really didn't understand why they would waste his "elite defense" on Rondo while Pierce and Ray torched the Lakers. The wing match ups are why the Lakers lost that series and I don't quite understand why more blame doesn't go towards Kobe wasting defensive effort roaming.

[9erempiree]

:facepalm

Do you even know what those numbers mean?

What is the difference in 4.6 and 7.8 in regards to defensive rating? Please don't answer by saying the difference is 3.2:facepalm

[BlackVVaves]

Not dismissing, nor affirming your premise OP, though its clear where your agenda lies, per your post history.

But just came to say this. No matter how much time feeble fans like yourself dedicate their days despising the likes of Kobe, LeBron, ect. and their rabid fanbases...and no matter how much your kind vows to diminish their value to the basketball community, the truth is that it's all obsolete to the highest degree.

Why? Because as long as legends, both past, present, and future talent that grew up idolizing those players continue to reiterate their greatness through their high praise, and thus continue to perpetuate their legacy through the walls of time, they will remain renowned monarchs in the kingdom of basketball enthusiasts.

It will take several...several generations of transcendent talent to dethrone the likes of Kobe, LeBron, and other polarizing figures in the game from their place in history. To erase them from our memories, or to revise history like posters like you so desperately attempt around here.

So carry on with your crusade, it's more bemusing than anything really. Just know that in the grand scheme of things, what you or I think doesn't matter, nor the disoriented sketch that advanced statistics portray without visual context. The media, coaches, former players, and current players will continue to herald the likes of Kobe and LeBron as All Time greats. And as long as they do, the grand efforts of devoted detractors like yourself will continue to prove to be meaningless.

**shrugs**

[Doranku]

Not dismissing, nor affirming your premise OP, though its clear where your agenda lies, per your post history.

But just came to say this. No matter how much time feeble fans like yourself dedicate their days despising the likes of Kobe, LeBron, ect. and their rabid fanbases...and no matter how much your kind vows to diminish their value to the basketball community, the truth is that it's all obsolete to the highest degree.

Why? Because as long as legends, both past, present, and future talent that grew up idolizing those players continue to reiterate their greatness through their high praise, and thus continue to perpetuate their legacy through the walls of time, they will remain renowned monarchs in the kingdom of basketball enthusiasts.

It will take several...several generations of transcendent talent to dethrone the likes of Kobe, LeBron, and other polarizing figures in the game from their place in history. To erase them from our memories, or to revise history like posters like you so desperately attempt around here.

So carry on with your crusade, it's more bemusing than anything really. Just know that in the grand scheme of things, what you or I think doesn't matter, nor the disoriented sketch that advanced statistics portray without visual context. The media, coaches, former players, and current players will continue to herald the likes of Kobe and LeBron as All Time greats. And as long as they do, the grand efforts of devoted detractors like yourself will continue to prove to be meaningless.

**shrugs**

Every time I finish reading one of your posts, I'm convinced that your homepage is a thesaurus.

[9erempiree]

This is my last post regarding this argument and I discussed these kind of arguments before with PER.

We quickly dispelled the PER argument. Nobody knows what those numbers are.:biggums:

This is the same thing here. It is a parallel argument.

Same sh1t sandwich but packaged differently.:facepalm

It would be too easy of an ownage to warrant me to do it all over again. This isn't 2007.

[Artillery]

The media, coaches, former players, and current players will continue to herald the likes of Kobe and LeBron as All Time greats. And as long as they do, the grand efforts of devoted detractors like yourself will continue to prove to be meaningless.

**shrugs**

:confusedshrug: This topic doesn't concern Lebron and no one mentioned him before you did. In any case, Lebron has always been rated as a positive defender by RAPM. Don't know why you're lumping him in with a historically bad defender like Bryant.

Besides, there's no agenda with this topic. I just find it strange that Kobe's been given a reputation as a good defender that's never been backed up by the stats. Nearly every other good defender thoughout the 2000s comes out as a positive defender on these lists. Kobe's the only one that doesn't. It's becoming a trend that quite damning for Bryant. Also, it's not like RAPM rates him as a bad player overall. His offensive metrics are always impressive. The problem comes when his fanbase labels him a great two-way player - the stats say otherwise. There's no shame in being just a fantastic offensive player BTW. Barkley and Malone are respected all-time greats and neither played much D either.

[Combat Wombat]

Are you actually gonna post anything about the game? I know that you're an alt, but an alt dedicated to just insult people? Pathetic.

That depends. Are you going to pretend that you aren't a bandwagon Heat fan?

Alt? I will happily bet you that this is my first account EVER on this forum. Ask Jeff to do an IP check if I'm an alt of any poster on this forum.

Can you say the same, you lying little rodent?

[BlackVVaves]

Every time I finish reading one of your posts, I'm convinced that your homepage is a thesaurus.

:lol former Journalism/English major before switching to Business Marketing.

[Dresta]

Kobe has got a ton of joke NBA All defensive selections.

When he got 1st team over Wade in 09 i was like :facepalm

[BlackVVaves]

:confusedshrug: This topic doesn't concern Lebron and no one mentioned him before you did. In any case, Lebron has always been rated as a positive defender by RAPM. Don't know why you're lumping him in with a historically bad defender like Bryant.

Besides, there's no agenda with this topic. I just find it strange that Kobe's been given a reputation as a good defender that's never been backed up by the stats. Nearly every other good defender thoughout the 2000s comes out as a positive defender on these lists. Kobe's the only one that doesn't. It's becoming a trend that quite damning for Bryant. Also, it's not like RAPM rates him as a bad player overall. His offensive metrics are always impressive. The problem comes when his fanbase labels him a great two-way player - the stats say otherwise. There's no shame in being just a fantastic offensive player BTW. Barkley and Malone are respected all-time greats and neither played much D either.

I mentioned LeBron because he falls in the same category. Many of you make a hobby out of diminishing the same 2-3 players' value. Every. Single. Day.

[DMV2]

:lol former Journalism/English major before switching to Business Marketing.
Why didnt you stick with the former? Money?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Everybody on the All-Defensive Second Team that year were ALSO rated as good defenders according to RAPM:

2000 NBA All-Defensive Second Team RAPM(RPI):

3.47 - Eddie Jones
1.27 - Shaq
0.76 - Kidd
0.44 - Pippen
0.37 - Cliff Robinson

:applause: Solid numbers for Shaq. Along with being the best offensive player in the league, he was also the defensive anchor on the Lakers.

It's starting to look like Kobe never was an impactful defender at ANY point in his career and that his all-defensive selections were undeserved. It's no coincidence that he's the only player on either team that had a negative impact on D. With advanced stats like RAPM becoming more and more commonplace, Kobe's reputation as a good defender is going to diminish in the coming years.

So you are telling me the difference between Shaq and Garnett/Mourning > young Kobe and prime Gary Payton defensively :applause:

[BlackVVaves]

Why didnt you stick with the former? Money?

Partially, but it was primarily because I garnered a passion for integrated marketing communications and brand management. It's an art form to me, and I truly love it. There's a certain rush I get from conceptualizing an idea, contributing to the process of developing it, and then seeing the campaign materialize into something tangible.

[Artillery]

So you are telling me the difference between Shaq and Garnett/Mourning > young Kobe and prime Gary Payton defensively :applause:

Your analogy doesn't amount to much when the numbers indicate Shaq, Garnett, Mourning all having more value as defenders than 2000 Payton or Bryant. A defensive anchor will always bring more value than a defensive wing.

In any case, I would refrain from comparing Bryant to Payton. At least Payton had an excuse. He was conserving energy for offense - the numbers reflect this too. Career year in scoring and a huge impact in offensive RAPM(+5.75). At the very least, he at least tried on defense. Not a huge difference maker but still noticeable. Besides, Payton's prime as a defensive player was probably in the mid-90s(when he won DPOY) and RAPM numbers don't exist that far back yet.

Kobe doesn't have an excuse for his shitty defensive numbers though. His offensive numbers were good(+2.08) but not good enough that he could afford to slack off on D. His peers at the shooting guard position were all posting better offensive numbers than him:

+5.75 Payton
+5.20 Carter
+4.17 Ray Allen
+3.22 Pierce

If anything, this tells us 2000 Kobe was incredibly overrated. He wasn't even top 3 in his position and a negative factor on defense. This makes Shaq's achievement that year even more impressive. Dominated the NBA while carrying a Lakers squad full of role players to a championship.

[ImKobe]

OP is a homosexual

[jzek]

Was he always a one-way player?

Yes.

[ArbitraryWater]

Damnnn, it's so wierd how every advanced statistic is AGAINST Kobe, right? :lol

What's the problem this time, Kobe diehards? What is wrong with the stat this time?

It's just a coincedence, like always... meaningless stat.

WATCH THE GAMES BRAH

[ImKobe]

Damnnn, it's so wierd how every advanced statistic is AGAINST Kobe, right? :lol

What's the problem this time, Kobe diehards? What is wrong with the stat this time?

It's just a coincedence, like always... meaningless stat.

WATCH THE GAMES BRAH

Here's a stat that is for Kobe - rings. So what, that some bs advanced stat, which most of you have no idea is about, doesn't favor him next to Payton, KG, Duncan? Who cares. Kobe won the title that year & came up big when he was needed the most in Game 7 WCF with his team down double digits, he led the team in 4 categories & sealed the game with the ankle breaker on Pippen & the lob to Shaq. Took over in Game 4 of the Finals, when Shaq fouled out in OT on the road.


Kobe was a key cog in all of his rings, haters can kiss my ass.

[ArbitraryWater]

Here's a stat that is for Kobe - rings. So what, that some bs advanced stat, which most of you have no idea is about, doesn't favor him next to Payton, KG, Duncan? Who cares. Kobe won the title that year & came up big when he was needed the most in Game 7 WCF with his team down double digits, he led the team in 4 categories & sealed the game with the ankle breaker on Pippen & the lob to Shaq. Took over in Game 4 of the Finals, when Shaq fouled out in OT on the road.


Kobe was a key cog in all of his rings, haters can kiss my ass.

I forgot...

DEM RANGZ!!!!!

ESPN JOB INTERVIEW:

ESPN: What are your qualifications, Sir?

- ..... PHYVE RANGZ!!!!!!!!!!

ESPN: Uh, eh, well, yea, your hired! Start on Monday.



ImKobe going to a new level of stupidity, talking about Rings when Defense is the Topic... :lol

[navy]

Let's be honest. Kobe is an overrated defender. Everyone knows it.

[Johnny Jones]

Doesn't RAPM rank Jason Collins as having two of the best defensive seasons of all time?

Edit: Yep. https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/top-defensive-rapm

Stat dismissed.

[sportjames23]

I forgot...

DEM RANGZ!!!!!

ESPN JOB INTERVIEW:

ESPN: What are your qualifications, Sir?

- ..... PHYVE RANGZ!!!!!!!!!!

ESPN: Uh, eh, well, yea, your hired! Start on Monday.



ImKobe going to a new level of stupidity, talking about Rings when Defense is the Topic... :lol


I lol'd at "PHYVE RANGZ" :oldlol:

[KobesFinger]

More advanced stats:

DWS:

Kobe - 4.5
Carter - 2.7
Allen - 1.0
Pierce - 3.0

DRtg:

Kobe - 98 (Lakers DRtg - 98.2)
Carter - 105 (Raptors DRtg - 104.9)
Allen - 110 (Bucks DRtg - 107.9)
Pierce - 103 (Celtics DRtg - 105.6)

Playoffs DWS:

Kobe - 0.5
Carter - 0.1
Allen - 0.2
Pierce - Celtics missed playoffs

Playoffs DRtg:

Kobe - 107 (Lakers DRtg - 107.5)
Carter - 103 (Raptors DRtg - 101.9)
Allen - 106 (Bucks DRtg - 105.5)
Pierce - Celtics missed playoffs

Kobe had the most DWS of the SGs mentioned in this thread. He also had the most in the playoffs. Relative to their teams' Defensive Ratings, Kobe was the 2nd best in the regular season behind Paul Pierce, though the Celtics were 18th in Defensive Rating compared to the Lakers who were 1st.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Your analogy doesn't amount to much when the numbers indicate Shaq, Garnett, Mourning all having more value as defenders than 2000 Payton or Bryant. A defensive anchor will always bring more value than a defensive wing.

In any case, I would refrain from comparing Bryant to Payton. At least Payton had an excuse. He was conserving energy for offense - the numbers reflect this too. Career year in scoring and a huge impact in offensive RAPM(+5.75). At the very least, he at least tried on defense. Not a huge difference maker but still noticeable. Besides, Payton's prime as a defensive player was probably in the mid-90s(when he won DPOY) and RAPM numbers don't exist that far back yet.

Kobe doesn't have an excuse for his shitty defensive numbers though. His offensive numbers were good(+2.08) but not good enough that he could afford to slack off on D. His peers at the shooting guard position were all posting better offensive numbers than him:

+5.75 Payton
+5.20 Carter
+4.17 Ray Allen
+3.22 Pierce

If anything, this tells us 2000 Kobe was incredibly overrated. He wasn't even top 3 in his position and a negative factor on defense. This makes Shaq's achievement that year even more impressive. Dominated the NBA while carrying a Lakers squad full of role players to a championship.

What's the standard error on this statistic and how dumb does do it make you feel to realize that any real statistician could tell you based on variance alone Kobe's true 2000 RAPM numbers could lead the league?

[ImKobe]

I forgot...

DEM RANGZ!!!!!

ESPN JOB INTERVIEW:

ESPN: What are your qualifications, Sir?

- ..... PHYVE RANGZ!!!!!!!!!!

ESPN: Uh, eh, well, yea, your hired! Start on Monday.



ImKobe going to a new level of stupidity, talking about Rings when Defense is the Topic... :lol

Because no one cares. Kobe did what he had to do to win. Winning is the only thing you should care about. I care about results, not statistics or some meaningless accolades like all-nba teams & defensive teams. Kobe won 5 rings for my team, 5 championship runs that I will never forget. A stat isn't going to change my mind all of a sudden.

Look at Kobe's defense in 2001 & 2002, when he was at his peak. Don't judge his defense, when he was only 21 years old & starting for the 2nd season. And if you look at his DWS, he's 44th all-time, ahead of GP, who played almost 100 more career games than Kobe currently has.

[ArbitraryWater]

Because no one cares. Kobe did what he had to do to win. Winning is the only thing you should care about. I care about results, not statistics or some meaningless accolades like all-nba teams & defensive teams. Kobe won 5 rings for my team, 5 championship runs that I will never forget. A stat isn't going to change my mind all of a sudden.

Look at Kobe's defense in 2001 & 2002, when he was at his peak. Don't judge his defense, when he was only 21 years old & starting for the 2nd season. And if you look at his DWS, he's 44th all-time, ahead of GP, who played almost 100 more career games than Kobe currently has.

Hyperbole and Fallacies at it's finest :lol

Basically still saying "5 rings" just wording it fancier :applause:

[STATUTORY]

More advanced stats:

DWS:

Kobe - 4.5
Carter - 2.7
Allen - 1.0
Pierce - 3.0

DRtg:

Kobe - 98 (Lakers DRtg - 98.2)
Carter - 105 (Raptors DRtg - 104.9)
Allen - 110 (Bucks DRtg - 107.9)
Pierce - 103 (Celtics DRtg - 105.6)

Playoffs DWS:

Kobe - 0.5
Carter - 0.1
Allen - 0.2
Pierce - Celtics missed playoffs

Playoffs DRtg:

Kobe - 107 (Lakers DRtg - 107.5)
Carter - 103 (Raptors DRtg - 101.9)
Allen - 106 (Bucks DRtg - 105.5)
Pierce - Celtics missed playoffs

Kobe had the most DWS of the SGs mentioned in this thread. He also had the most in the playoffs. Relative to their teams' Defensive Ratings, Kobe was the 2nd best in the regular season behind Paul Pierce, though the Celtics were 18th in Defensive Rating compared to the Lakers who were 1st.

I didn't know UPS worked on Sundays but this ni99a delivered :applause: :applause:

[Keno]

this isn't nothing new, real nba fans know kobe is an overrated defender and doesn't deserve almost half of his defensive first teams.

[hitmanyr2k]

In 2000 thru 2002 and in 2008 Kobe deserved praise for his perimeter defensive efforts. The only place he had problems (similar to Paul George) was he got abused on the low block.

From (2003 - 2007) and (2009 - 2012) Kobe was a very overrated defender. Going by accolades he was without a doubt the most overrated perimeter defender of all-time.

[mehyaM24]

I didn't know UPS worked on Sundays but this ni99a delivered :applause: :applause:

:lol

[DMAVS41]

Your analogy doesn't amount to much when the numbers indicate Shaq, Garnett, Mourning all having more value as defenders than 2000 Payton or Bryant. A defensive anchor will always bring more value than a defensive wing.

In any case, I would refrain from comparing Bryant to Payton. At least Payton had an excuse. He was conserving energy for offense - the numbers reflect this too. Career year in scoring and a huge impact in offensive RAPM(+5.75). At the very least, he at least tried on defense. Not a huge difference maker but still noticeable. Besides, Payton's prime as a defensive player was probably in the mid-90s(when he won DPOY) and RAPM numbers don't exist that far back yet.

Kobe doesn't have an excuse for his shitty defensive numbers though. His offensive numbers were good(+2.08) but not good enough that he could afford to slack off on D. His peers at the shooting guard position were all posting better offensive numbers than him:

+5.75 Payton
+5.20 Carter
+4.17 Ray Allen
+3.22 Pierce

If anything, this tells us 2000 Kobe was incredibly overrated. He wasn't even top 3 in his position and a negative factor on defense. This makes Shaq's achievement that year even more impressive. Dominated the NBA while carrying a Lakers squad full of role players to a championship.


The problem with this is that it's about impact on a specific team. Of course Kobe's RAPM numbers won't be great...he had Shaq on his team.

Shawn Bradley had a higher RAPM than Kobe in 00. Why? Well, because Bradley was a pretty damn good defender and played on a complete shit defensive team. So while he was on the court, the team improved dramatically on defense...and it's reflected in his on/off impact.

However, RAPM doesn't adjust per minute production. So you would never compare a guy playing 25 minutes like Bradley on a shit defensive team and sub .500 team overall to a guy like Kobe playing 38 minutes per game on a loaded team on both ends. The 00 Lakers had the best defense in the league...and a cast that could still play great defense easily without Kobe.

So of course his rapm in 00 is not great...his team was awesome and he was playing with the clear cut best player in the game.

Have to put this shit into context. Put Kobe on the 35 win Celtics instead of Paul Pierce like you referenced above and his RAPM numbers would go way up.

[Quickening]

Not dismissing, nor affirming your premise OP, though its clear where your agenda lies, per your post history.

But just came to say this. No matter how much time feeble fans like yourself dedicate their days despising the likes of Kobe, LeBron, ect. and their rabid fanbases...and no matter how much your kind vows to diminish their value to the basketball community, the truth is that it's all obsolete to the highest degree.

Why? Because as long as legends, both past, present, and future talent that grew up idolizing those players continue to reiterate their greatness through their high praise, and thus continue to perpetuate their legacy through the walls of time, they will remain renowned monarchs in the kingdom of basketball enthusiasts.

It will take several...several generations of transcendent talent to dethrone the likes of Kobe, LeBron, and other polarizing figures in the game from their place in history. To erase them from our memories, or to revise history like posters like you so desperately attempt around here.

So carry on with your crusade, it's more bemusing than anything really. Just know that in the grand scheme of things, what you or I think doesn't matter, nor the disoriented sketch that advanced statistics portray without visual context. The media, coaches, former players, and current players will continue to herald the likes of Kobe and LeBron as All Time greats. And as long as they do, the grand efforts of devoted detractors like yourself will continue to prove to be meaningless.

**shrugs**

Nice essay, but trolls on internet forums post to wind fellow users up and get attention, not because they think their posts will impact real life. So what you just said is redundant, and you gave OP the kind of response he wanted. :applause:

[mehyaM24]

The problem with this is that it's about impact on a specific team. Of course Kobe's RAPM numbers won't be great...he had Shaq on his team.

Shawn Bradley had a higher RAPM than Kobe in 00. Why? Well, because Bradley was a pretty damn good defender and played on a complete shit defensive team. So while he was on the court, the team improved dramatically on defense...and it's reflected in his on/off impact.

However, RAPM doesn't adjust per minute production. So you would never compare a guy playing 25 minutes like Bradley on a shit defensive team and sub .500 team overall to a guy like Kobe playing 38 minutes per game on a loaded team on both ends. The 00 Lakers had the best defense in the league...and a cast that could still play great defense easily without Kobe.

So of course his rapm in 00 is not great...his team was awesome and he was playing with the clear cut best player in the game.

Have to put this shit into context. Put Kobe on the 35 win Celtics instead of Paul Pierce like you referenced above and his RAPM numbers would go way up.

artillery just got his shit pushed in....

[Quickening]

The problem with this is that it's about impact on a specific team. Of course Kobe's RAPM numbers won't be great...he had Shaq on his team.

Shawn Bradley had a higher RAPM than Kobe in 00. Why? Well, because Bradley was a pretty damn good defender and played on a complete shit defensive team. So while he was on the court, the team improved dramatically on defense...and it's reflected in his on/off impact.

However, RAPM doesn't adjust per minute production. So you would never compare a guy playing 25 minutes like Bradley on a shit defensive team and sub .500 team overall to a guy like Kobe playing 38 minutes per game on a loaded team on both ends. The 00 Lakers had the best defense in the league...and a cast that could still play great defense easily without Kobe.

So of course his rapm in 00 is not great...his team was awesome and he was playing with the clear cut best player in the game.

Have to put this shit into context. Put Kobe on the 35 win Celtics instead of Paul Pierce like you referenced above and his RAPM numbers would go way up.

So should someone who doesn't really impact team defence deserve to be put on the all defensive team, team doesn't skip a beat when he is benched, actually improve... did none of those other people on it play more than 25 minutes, yet they still managed a postive impact.:confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

So should someone who doesn't really impact team defence deserve to be put on the all defensive team, team doesn't skip a beat when he is benched, actually improve... did none of those other people on it play more than 25 minutes, yet they still managed a postive impact.:confusedshrug:

It depends...I wasn't saying Kobe deserved it.

I just wanted to point out that using rapm for Kobe in 00 compared to a guy like Paul Pierce is horribly flawed to determine which one of them is the better player.

What you can do...is use it to determine which player had the bigger impact on his team. That is fine, but you can't use it to say Kobe wasn't as good on defense or something as Paul Pierce. That is just not what the stat is designed for at all.

Did Kobe deserve it in 00? Actually I think he did. He played great individual defense and played the 2nd most minutes on a team that was the best defensive team in the league.

[Quickening]

It depends...I wasn't saying Kobe deserved it.

I just wanted to point out that using rapm for Kobe in 00 compared to a guy like Paul Pierce is horribly flawed to determine which one of them is the better player.

What you can do...is use it to determine which player had the bigger impact on his team. That is fine, but you can't use it to say Kobe wasn't as good on defense or something as Paul Pierce. That is just not what the stat is designed for at all.

Did Kobe deserve it in 00? Actually I think he did. He played great individual defense and played the 2nd most minutes on a team that was the best defensive team in the league.

How can someone whos team improves defensively when they're benched get all defense? It would be like someone winning MVP, when there team improves when they're out.

[PsychoBe]

It depends...I wasn't saying Kobe deserved it.

I just wanted to point out that using rapm for Kobe in 00 compared to a guy like Paul Pierce is horribly flawed to determine which one of them is the better player.

What you can do...is use it to determine which player had the bigger impact on his team. That is fine, but you can't use it to say Kobe wasn't as good on defense or something as Paul Pierce. That is just not what the stat is designed for at all.

Did Kobe deserve it in 00? Actually I think he did. He played great individual defense and played the 2nd most minutes on a team that was the best defensive team in the league.

kobe was also by and large their most versatile perimeter defender who could play man-to-man and the passing lanes at an almost elite level. his praise was warranted.

[BlackVVaves]

Nice essay, but trolls on internet forums post to wind fellow users up and get attention, not because they think their posts will impact real life. So what you just said is redundant, and you gave OP the kind of response he wanted. :applause:

I guess? Lol, I could care less, I browse through here all the time and avoid troll posts/threads. I was up, bored, and decided to chime in. No one riled me up.

But, whatever makes you feel better holmes.

[fpliii]

Kobe was always a better man defender than team/help defender. If the Synergy stats existed he'd rate very favorably. That being said, his numbers aren't horrible in RAPM for a star offensive player. In 2010 actually (which wasn't a great season for him in terms if man defense), he comes out looking great in RAPM.

In offensive RAPM (which, like defensive RAPM, concerns itself with team offense), Kobe is at or near the top if the league every season. For some reason people ignore the offensive results. This is in addition to being a top individual offensive player, a decent/good help defender, and when he wants to be a good man defender.

[Quickening]

I guess? Lol, I could care less, I browse through here all the time and avoid troll posts/threads. I was up, bored, and decided to chime in. No one riled me up.

But, whatever makes you feel better holmes.

Your essay was completely irrelevant whether you were angry or not... he doesn't care whether what he says impacts Kobe legacy, he says it for responses and to wind up fellow posters i.e a troll, you replied, therefore doing exactly what he wanted.

[fpliii]

The problem with this is that it's about impact on a specific team. Of course Kobe's RAPM numbers won't be great...he had Shaq on his team.

Shawn Bradley had a higher RAPM than Kobe in 00. Why? Well, because Bradley was a pretty damn good defender and played on a complete shit defensive team. So while he was on the court, the team improved dramatically on defense...and it's reflected in his on/off impact.

However, RAPM doesn't adjust per minute production. So you would never compare a guy playing 25 minutes like Bradley on a shit defensive team and sub .500 team overall to a guy like Kobe playing 38 minutes per game on a loaded team on both ends. The 00 Lakers had the best defense in the league...and a cast that could still play great defense easily without Kobe.

So of course his rapm in 00 is not great...his team was awesome and he was playing with the clear cut best player in the game.

Have to put this shit into context. Put Kobe on the 35 win Celtics instead of Paul Pierce like you referenced above and his RAPM numbers would go way up.
Just a note, RAPM is a rate stat (it's adjusted per 100 possessions) and is indeed adjusted for players you play with and against. It's computed from play-by-play data, so it adjusts based on who is on the floor at the same time as you.

[DMAVS41]

How can someone whos team improves defensively when they're benched get all defense? It would be like someone winning MVP, when there team improves when they're out.

Because Kobe was only sitting 10 minutes a game. And while he was on the court...the Lakers had the best defense in the league.

It's not like you saw some dramatic difference on/off in 00 either...not some Rose in 11 situation.

I'm all for hating on Kobe for his over-rated defense, but you guys are literally picking the one year of his career in which he probably deserved it. LOL

[DMAVS41]

Just a note, RAPM is a rate stat (it's adjusted per 100 possessions) and is indeed adjusted for players you play with and against. It's computed from play-by-play data, so it adjusts based on who is on the floor at the same time as you.

I understand that, but if one guy is playing 38 minutes per game...and one guy is playing 25 minutes per game. You are only getting that impact the minutes they are on the court.

Do you really not understand why that matters so much?

If Shawn Bradley could have kept up his rapm numbers for 38 minutes a game in 00...he actually would have been one of the best players in the league.

But his impact is far less because he's only able to do it for 25 minutes a game...while Kobe was playing 38.

And again...team strength impacts this stuff. Easier to have better on/off ratings when the team around you sucks at your strengths.

[BlackVVaves]

Your essay was completely irrelevant whether you were angry or not... he doesn't care whether what he says impacts Kobe legacy, he says it for responses and to wind up fellow posters i.e a troll, you replied, therefore doing exactly what he wanted.

It was relevant to the pattern of trolling that exists, so that's why I addressed it.

I honestly could care less if it played into anyone's agenda, if that drives anyone's satisfaction then I pity their empty lives.

Otherwise, thanks for your assessment, future rep, will recommend :sleeping

[Artillery]

The problem with this is that it's about impact on a specific team. Of course Kobe's RAPM numbers won't be great...he had Shaq on his team.

Shawn Bradley had a higher RAPM than Kobe in 00. Why? Well, because Bradley was a pretty damn good defender and played on a complete shit defensive team. So while he was on the court, the team improved dramatically on defense...and it's reflected in his on/off impact.

However, RAPM doesn't adjust per minute production. So you would never compare a guy playing 25 minutes like Bradley on a shit defensive team and sub .500 team overall to a guy like Kobe playing 38 minutes per game on a loaded team on both ends. The 00 Lakers had the best defense in the league...and a cast that could still play great defense easily without Kobe.

So of course his rapm in 00 is not great...his team was awesome and he was playing with the clear cut best player in the game.

Have to put this shit into context. Put Kobe on the 35 win Celtics instead of Paul Pierce like you referenced above and his RAPM numbers would go way up.

Offensive numbers maybe. Kobe's defensive RAPM were never respectable, even when he was on bad teams. Using your logic, Kobe's defensive RAPM numbers should be amazing during the 2005-2007 period when his teams weren't stacked. They're not though:

2005: -1.1
2006: -1.2
2007: -0.5

Now some people have a problem with single year RAPM due to the noise(insufficient sample size). To get around this, we have multi-year RAPM studies....where Kobe also comes out as a bad defender. Here they are:

03-09 (7 year RAPM): -0.6
02-11 (10 year RAPM): -0.5
01-14 (14 year RAPM): -0.16

[Quickening]

It was relevant to the pattern of trolling that exists, so that's why I addressed it.

I honestly could care less if it played into anyone's agenda, if that drives anyone's satisfaction then I pity their empty lives.

Otherwise, thanks for your assessment, future rep, will recommend :sleeping

Its just funny when someone goes off on a long tangent and gets it completely wrong, always rep back :cheers: :cheers:

[Quickening]

Offensive numbers maybe. Kobe's defensive RAPM were never respectable, even when he was on bad teams. Using your logic, Kobe's defensive RAPM numbers should be amazing during the 2005-2007 period when his teams weren't stacked. They're not though:

2005: -1.1
2006: -1.2
2007: -0.5

Now some people have a problem with single year RAPM due to the noise(insufficient sample size). To get around this, we have multi-year RAPM studies....where Kobe also comes out as a bad defender. Here they are:

03-09 (7 year RAPM): -0.6
02-11 (10 year RAPM): -0.5
01-14 (14 year RAPM): -0.16

dat ether

[Artillery]

Kobe was always a better man defender than team/help defender. If the Synergy stats existed he'd rate very favorably. That being said, his numbers aren't horrible in RAPM for a star offensive player. In 2010 actually (which wasn't a great season for him in terms if man defense), he comes out looking great in RAPM.

In offensive RAPM (which, like defensive RAPM, concerns itself with team offense), Kobe is at or near the top if the league every season. For some reason people ignore the offensive results. This is in addition to being a top individual offensive player, a decent/good help defender, and when he wants to be a good man defender.

No one has ever doubted Kobe's reputation as an offensive player. He's a fantastic one-way player. Problem arise when people call him one of the best two-way players of all-time because it's a flat out lie. He never had any meaningful impact on the defensive side of things.

[DMAVS41]

Offensive numbers maybe. Kobe's defensive RAPM were never respectable, even when he was on bad teams. Using your logic, Kobe's defensive RAPM numbers should be amazing during the 2005-2007 period when his teams weren't stacked. They're not though:

2005: -1.1
2006: -1.2
2007: -0.5

Now some people have a problem with single year RAPM due to the noise(insufficient sample size). To get around this, we have multi-year RAPM studies....where Kobe also comes out as a bad defender. Here they are:

03-09 (7 year RAPM): -0.6
02-11 (10 year RAPM): -0.5
01-14 (14 year RAPM): -0.16

Again, this is flawed because Kobe actually played great defense in 00.

I'm totally with you on all this stuff, but I'm telling you that 00 Kobe was a beast defensively. You are literally picking the one year in which Kobe played great defense and focused on defense throughout.

I agree with all the stuff after 00, but you aren't giving him enough credit for his defense in 00.

[fpliii]

I understand that, but if one guy is playing 38 minutes per game...and one guy is playing 25 minutes per game. You are only getting that impact the minutes they are on the court.

Do you really not understand why that matters so much?

If Shawn Bradley could have kept up his rapm numbers for 38 minutes a game in 00...he actually would have been one of the best players in the league.

But his impact is far less because he's only able to do it for 25 minutes a game...while Kobe was playing 38.

And again...team strength impacts this stuff. Easier to have better on/off ratings when the team around you sucks at your strengths.
I misunderstood your point, I agree you have to look at specialists playing limited minutes and stars among the league leaders differently.

No one has ever doubted Kobe's reputation as an offensive player. He's a fantastic one-way player. Problem arise when people call him one of the best two-way players of all-time because it's a flat out lie. He never had any meaningful impact on the defensive side of things.Right, but how many star offensive perimeter players are going to be super impactful on the defensive end as well? RAPM measures impact on team performance. It says little about man defense (which perhaps isn't as important over the course of a game as help/team defense).

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Offensive numbers maybe. Kobe's defensive RAPM were never respectable, even when he was on bad teams. Using your logic, Kobe's defensive RAPM numbers should be amazing during the 2005-2007 period when his teams weren't stacked. They're not though:

2005: -1.1
2006: -1.2
2007: -0.5

Now some people have a problem with single year RAPM due to the noise(insufficient sample size). To get around this, we have multi-year RAPM studies....where Kobe also comes out as a bad defender. Here they are:

03-09 (7 year RAPM): -0.6
02-11 (10 year RAPM): -0.5
01-14 (14 year RAPM): -0.16

Kobe's 14 year RAPM is <1.5 of Dennis Rodman, Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Shaq, Gary Payton and Jason Kidd RAMP for the 90s. :confusedshrug:

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/90s.html

[JohnFreeman]

Kobe is a good defender for a top 100 player.

[DMAVS41]

Kobe's 14 year RAPM is <1.5 of Dennis Rodman, Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Shaq, Gary Payton and Jason Kidd RAMP for the 90s. :confusedshrug:

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/90s.html

That isn't RAPM

We've told you this time and time again. The 90's is not real rapm...just stop it.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Kobe's 14 year RAPM is <1.5 of Dennis Rodman, Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Shaq, Gary Payton and Jason Kidd RAMP for the 90s. :confusedshrug:

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/90s.html

I know it makes things much more convenient but Kobe Bryant isn't patient Zero of your flawed religious interpretation of an "advanced" statistic. Defensive reputations and all defensive team awards have never been awarded based on this statistic.

[Doctor Rivers]

Your essay was completely irrelevant whether you were angry or not... he doesn't care whether what he says impacts Kobe legacy, he says it for responses and to wind up fellow posters i.e a troll, you replied, therefore doing exactly what he wanted.

there's no point to you existing

[Yao Ming's Foot]

That isn't RAPM

We've told you this time and time again. The 90's is not real rapm...just stop it.

"RAPM of the entire 90s"

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/

:confusedshrug:

[Quickening]

:rant

:roll:

[fpliii]

"RAPM of the entire 90s"

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/

:confusedshrug:
That's fake RAPM, play-by-play data doesn't exist prior to 96-97. It's xRAPM, which is based on box score stats (and doesn't use play-by-play data). J.E took down real RAPM when he was hired by a team. Don't even bother with it.

[Doctor Rivers]

:roll:


lol

[Artillery]

Kobe's 14 year RAPM is <1.5 of Dennis Rodman, Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Shaq, Gary Payton and Jason Kidd RAMP for the 90s. :confusedshrug:

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/90s.html

Not RAPM. 90s RAPM has only been calculated down to the '97 season. Play-by-Play data from 1990 to 1996 is unavailable right now. What you just linked is meaningless

[BlackVVaves]

Its just funny when someone goes off on a long tangent and gets it completely wrong, always rep back :cheers: :cheers:

:rockon:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Not RAPM. 90s RAPM has only been calculated down to the '97 season. Play-by-Play data from 1990 to 1996 is unavailable right now. What you just linked is meaningless

If its meaningless why did the guy who is apparently pimping the stat more than anybody post it on his site?

Why difference does box score vs play by play by data make?

Does box score data have something special programmed into to make Pippen, Jordan, Rodman, Kidd and Shaq less impressive defensively than they actually are?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Why is it the advanced stats guys seem so keen on the idea that Kobe has to "mathematically prove" his defensive impact and clutchness when countless other before were given those labels without the same scrutiny?

Why don't Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman and Michael Jordan have to prove that their defensive impact was greater than Magic Johnson when the best available defensive metrics that we have available to us clock Magic in at 1.6 while Rodman, Jordan and Pippen are at a measly 1.1-1.2 for the entire decade of the 90s.

[Artillery]

Right, but how many star offensive perimeter players are going to be super impactful on the defensive end as well? RAPM measures impact on team performance. It says little about man defense (which perhaps isn't as important over the course of a game as help/team defense).

No star wing/guard will ever be "super-impactful" on defense, of course. There are some that have a moderate impact though. Lebron always rates pretty solid(+2.2 in the ten year study). Ginobili always seems to be decent despite not having a single defensive selection(+1.2 in ten year study). Paul is ok too. Kobe come out a negative despite having more defensive selections than all of them combined though.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

No star wing/guard will ever be "super-impactful" on defense, of course. There are some that have a moderate impact though. Lebron always rates pretty solid(+2.2 in the ten year study). Ginobili always seems to be decent despite not having a single defensive selection(+1.2 in ten year study). Paul is ok too. Kobe come out a negative despite having more defensive selections than all of them combined though.

Lebron is a forward
Ginobli played way fewer minutes
Chris Paul makes the all defensive team pretty much every year he plays enough minutes to be worthy of the selection. Also, he's a point guard.

If you want to claim somebody else deserved those selections you are going to have to prove 1) that statistic was congruent with historical selections 2) other SGs had more defensive impact and 3) they played a comparable amount of minutes on the season.

The sad truth is this argument falls apart at step 1

:confusedshrug:

Yet you guys keep repeating it hoping noone will notice.

[mehyaM24]

.......early 2000s kobe deserved all his defensive awards. 2004 and on? fvck no. well maybe 2008 but seriously....of his dozens of all defensive teams, he should only get credit for like 5 of them.

[Artillery]

Lebron is a forward
Ginobli played way fewer minutes
Chris Paul makes the all defensive team pretty much every year he plays enough minutes to be worthy of the selection. Also, he's a point guard.

If you want to claim somebody else deserved those selections you are going to have to prove 1) that statistic was congruent with historical selections 2) other SGs had more defensive impact and 3) they played a comparable amount of minutes on the season.

The sad truth is this argument falls apart at step 1

:confusedshrug:

Yet you guys keep repeating it hoping noone will notice.

:oldlol: You didn't even understand the discussion we were having. He asked me to name other star offensive players that were actually impactful on defense. The idea was that there's a correlation between being an offensive stud and a defensive liability. I gave him a few names that disprove the theory.

As for who deserves those all-defensive selections that Kobe stole over the years - any number of guards. Mostly defensive specialists. Your logic is that Kobe deserved those defensive selection because he was playing more minutes than everyone else...which is asinine.

At the end of the day, Kobe has the 2nd most defensive selections in NBA history...which is hilarious because he's been a bad defender for most of his career.

[AKA AAP 23]

Everybody on the All-Defensive Second Team that year were ALSO rated as good defenders according to RAPM:

2000 NBA All-Defensive Second Team RAPM(RPI):

3.47 - Eddie Jones
1.27 - Shaq
0.76 - Kidd
0.44 - Pippen
0.37 - Cliff Robinson

:applause: Solid numbers for Shaq. Along with being the best offensive player in the league, he was also the defensive anchor on the Lakers.

It's starting to look like Kobe never was an impactful defender at ANY point in his career and that his all-defensive selections were undeserved. It's no coincidence that he's the only player on either team that had a negative impact on D. With advanced stats like RAPM becoming more and more commonplace, Kobe's reputation as a good defender is going to diminish in the coming years.

Bolded is the sad reality. He made a career of tanking on defense with his "roaming" tendency so he can put more of an effort to jacking up shots at an average to below average efficiency rate. The funny thing is, for all his roaming, he has only had > 1.8 spg once in his 17 year career and > 0.8 bpg once. Someone like LeBron did BOTH multiple times in his 10 year career, and the first time he had > 1.8 spg, he was 20 years old. Add that to the fact that LeBron plays a lot more man defense than Kobe the roamer, and LeBron can actually defend 4 positions to Kobe's 0, and you will find another reason why Kobe's career is just one big asterisk.

[Artillery]

Why is it the advanced stats guys seem so keen on the idea that Kobe has to "mathematically prove" his defensive impact and clutchness when countless other before were given those labels without the same scrutiny?

Because the data is only available for recent years('97-'14). No one's out to get Kobe. It's not like these guys are calculating stats for the sole purpose of discrediting your idol. Look at the three players that have the most defensive selection in NBA history: Duncan, Kobe, Garnett. TD and KG's defensive reputations are legit. Backed up by the stats. Kobe's isn't.


Why don't Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman and Michael Jordan have to prove that their defensive impact was greater than Magic Johnson when the best available defensive metrics that we have available to us clock Magic in at 1.6 while Rodman, Jordan and Pippen are at a measly 1.1-1.2 for the entire decade of the 90s.

RAPM only goes back to the 1997 season. I'm sure they'll be plenty of discussions about Jordan, Rodman, or Pippen's defense when more data becomes available.

[AKA AAP 23]

Damnnn, it's so wierd how every advanced statistic is AGAINST Kobe, right? :lol

What's the problem this time, Kobe diehards? What is wrong with the stat this time?

It's just a coincedence, like always... meaningless stat.

WATCH THE GAMES BRAH

:roll:

The funny thing is, they have no problem using TS% so they can incorporate his good FT% to compensate for his FG%...

[ImKobe]

Hyperbole and Fallacies at it's finest :lol

Basically still saying "5 rings" just wording it fancier :applause:

So, the fact that Kobe's ranked 44th all-time in DWS, ahead of GP, means nothing, right? Now the "advanced stat" doesn't matter at all, right?

[Artillery]

Someone like LeBron did BOTH multiple times in his 10 year career, and the first time he had > 1.8 spg, he was 20 years old. Add that to the fact that LeBron plays a lot more man defense than Kobe the roamer, and LeBron can actually defend 4 positions to Kobe's 0

I've always thought Lebron was the better defender. Bryant's off-ball D is horrendous in comparison to Lebron's. And look at what he did to Parker in the Finals. TP went from averaging 25 ppg on 59%TS against Memphis' elite D to averaging 15 ppg on 47%TS against the Heat. I mean, Parker was always a disappointing playoff performer but what Lebron did to him was nasty.

[ArbitraryWater]

So, the fact that Kobe's ranked 44th all-time in DWS, ahead of GP, means nothing, right? Now the "advanced stat" doesn't matter at all, right?

I think we all know RAPM is a better indicator, hun.

[ImKobe]

I've always thought Lebron was the better defender. Bryant's off-ball D is horrendous in comparison's to Lebron. And look at what he did to Parker in the Finals. TP went from averaging 25 ppg on 59%TS against Memphis' elite D to averaging 15 ppg on 47%TS against the Heat. I mean, Parker was always a disappointing playoff performer but what Lebron did to him was nasty.

You're a ****ing moron, who probably didn't even watch a single full game of the 2013 NBA Finals. If you actually watched, you'd know that Parker was doubled by a combo of Wade/Bosh & Lebron/Bosh, Parker actually hit the 2nd biggest shot of that series over Lebron to close Game 1 on the road. Bosh was the key piece in that Miami defense in the Finals, anyone with any actual basketball knowledge knows that. Watch some tape & see how important Bosh actually was on defense in that series.

Parker could often get by Lebron with his first step, but Bosh & Wade helping out helped neutralize him in a big way. It's why Danny Green had a huge series, he got wide open 3s thanks to the double teams & he knocked them down at a historic rate in the first 5 games.

Here's a great article on Chris Bosh's defense in that series

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/6/21/4452340/nba-finals-heat-spurs-chris-bosh-defense

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2819929/boshtranblock.gif


A very detailed article about the defense Bosh played on Parker, Manu & Duncan, & it's just from Game 7. Now break down the tapes from the 6 other games of that series, where Bosh worked his ass of defending everyone else, providing great help defense & even playing elite perimeter defense on Parker & that huge block on Danny Green in OT of Game 6.

C'mon son!


Oh wait, there's more! Another detailed article with tons of footage regarding Chris Bosh's defense. Look at how he works on Parker, Duncan & Manu while Lebron is standing on the perimeter & looking at Danny Granger. But I guess Lebron did all the dirty work on defense & he's the clear cut greatest defensive player in the league!

http://www.nba.com/heat/news_recap/defensive-travels-chris-bosh

[Artillery]

So, the fact that Kobe's ranked 44th all-time in DWS, ahead of GP, means nothing, right? Now the "advanced stat" doesn't matter at all, right?

Box score stats won't tell us much about defense, especially compared to APM data. For example, defensive win shares underrates mobile defensive bigs and excellent rim protectors.

[ArbitraryWater]

You're a ****ing moron, who probably didn't even watch a single full game of the 2013 NBA Finals. If you actually watched, you'd know that Parker was doubled by a combo of Wade/Bosh & Lebron/Bosh, Parker actually hit the 2nd biggest shot of that series over Lebron to close Game 1 on the road. Bosh was the key piece in that Miami defense in the Finals, anyone with any actual basketball knowledge knows that. Watch some tape & see how important Bosh actually was on defense in that series.

Parker could often get by Lebron with his first step, but Bosh & Wade helping out helped neutralize him in a big way. It's why Danny Green had a huge series, he got wide open 3s thanks to the double teams & he knocked them down at a historic rate in the first 5 games.

Here's a great article on Chris Bosh's defense in that series

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/6/21/4452340/nba-finals-heat-spurs-chris-bosh-defense

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2819929/boshtranblock.gif


A very detailed article about the defense Bosh played on Parker, Manu & Duncan, & it's just from Game 7. Now break down the tapes from the 6 other games of that series, where Bosh worked his ass of defending everyone else, providing great help defense & even playing elite perimeter defense on Parker & that huge block on Danny Green in OT of Game 6.

C'mon son!

I prefer these comments over the

"Kobe: 5

Tired Old Shitbag: 4"

stuff :applause:

[AnaheimLakers24]

kobe 5
bran 1.5

kobe is a better basketball player accordingto hoop fans and casuals

[ImKobe]

I prefer these comments over the

"Kobe: 5

Tired Old Shitbag: 4"

stuff :applause:

read my edit as well, I added more info to support my claims

I actually WATCH basketball & I can find you basketball analysts, who have backed up my claims before with their articles & video snippets to make my point. All you have to do is actually WATCH the game! It's so damn simple!

And read the reply above you by "Artillery", now it's a "boxscore" stat that doesn't tell the story, the whole damn thread is based on some useless boxscore stat, that doesn't tell us anything we really want to know. In order to really understand how well someone plays on the defensive end, you just WATCH the damn game! You don't need to read stats or stupid opinions of noob NBA fans that are just looking to "troll" posters that actually invest their heart in the game of basketball in general.

I have no problem with people criticizing Kobe & I do agree that he gets overrated a lot by the fanboys that call him the GOAT and what not, but he deserves the respect that Duncan & Shaq get. He played a big role in all of his 5 NBA Championship rings & he had some historic games during the process. He is the greatest SG of our era and the biggest superstar since Michael, followed by Lebron today. He, just like any other NBA legend, deserves respect for what he's done in and for this league. That is all I'm trying to say.

Is his defense overrated by the common fan? Absolutely.
Is he a garbage defender? No. He's an average off-ball defender, but he's elite when he's defending the ballhandler. His footwork on defense is only matched by few when he's pressuring the ballhandler. Prime Kobe was a joy to watch on both ends of the ball, but to be honest, since 2001-2003, he hasn't focused as much on D, apart from 2008.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:oldlol: You didn't even understand the discussion we were having. He asked me to name other star offensive players that were actually impactful on defense. The idea was that there's a correlation between being an offensive stud and a defensive liability. I gave him a few names that disprove the theory.

As for who deserves those all-defensive selections that Kobe stole over the years - any number of guards. Mostly defensive specialists. Your logic is that Kobe deserved those defensive selection because he was playing more minutes than everyone else...which is asinine.

At the end of the day, Kobe has the 2nd most defensive selections in NBA history...which is hilarious because he's been a bad defender for most of his career.

Once again please demonstrate the historical preference for defensive specialists to win all defensive team awards.

Superstar names always have an edge on all defensive team awards since its inception.

To say Kobe does not or did not deserve the award would mean to ignore how the award was actually given out prior to Kobe joining the league. The world in which RAPM has been demonstrated to show any relevance in projecting all defensive teams pre, post or during the Kobe era does not exist.

[ArbitraryWater]

read my edit as well, I added more info to support my claims

I actually WATCH basketball & I can find you basketball analysts, who have backed up my claims before with their articles & video snippets to make my point. All you have to do is actually WATCH the game! It's so damn simple!

And read the reply above you by "Artillery", now it's a "boxscore" stat that doesn't tell the story, the whole damn thread is based on some useless boxscore stat, that doesn't tell us anything we really want to know. In order to really understand how well someone plays on the defensive end, you just WATCH the damn game! You don't need to read stats or stupid opinions of noob NBA fans that are just looking to "troll" posters that actually invest their heart in the game of basketball in general.

I have no problem with people criticizing Kobe & I do agree that he gets overrated a lot by the fanboys that call him the GOAT and what not, but he deserves the respect that Duncan & Shaq get. He played a big role in all of his 5 NBA Championship rings & he had some historic games during the process. He is the greatest SG of our era and the biggest superstar since Michael, followed by Lebron today. He, just like any other NBA legend, deserves respect for what he's done in and for this league. That is all I'm trying to say.

Is his defense overrated by the common fan? Absolutely.
Is he a garbage defender? No. He's an average off-ball defender, but he's elite when he's defending the ballhandler. His footwork on defense is only matched by few when he's pressuring the ballhandler. Prime Kobe was a joy to watch on both ends of the ball, but to be honest, since 2001-2003, he hasn't focused as much on D, apart from 2008.

100% Facts :cheers:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Because the data is only available for recent years('97-'14). No one's out to get Kobe. It's not like these guys are calculating stats for the sole purpose of discrediting your idol. Look at the three players that have the most defensive selection in NBA history: Duncan, Kobe, Garnett. TD and KG's defensive reputations are legit. Backed up by the stats. Kobe's isn't.

Are they though? How do Duncan and Garnett's numbers compare to actual big men and not guards? I would suspect there is a greater gap between the top big men statistically and those two than legitimate shooting guard all defensive team contenders and Kobe.



RAPM only goes back to the 1997 season. I'm sure they'll be plenty of discussions about Jordan, Rodman, or Pippen's defense when more data becomes available.

Once again what difference does it make? How will additional play by play data change the fact that Magic Johnson rates as a better defender than those 3 with no defensive reputation to back it up?

[fpliii]

Are they though? How do Duncan and Garnett's numbers compare to actual big men and not guards? I would suspect there is a greater gap between the top big men statistically and those two than legitimate shooting guard all defensive team contenders and Kobe.




Once again what difference does it make? How will additional play by play data change the fact that Magic Johnson rates as a better defender than those 3 with no defensive reputation to back it up?
1) From the RAPM numbers, both KG and Duncan are at or near the top in the entire league defensively year after year.

2) It's not additional play-by-play data. The fake xRAPM on that site is based 100% on box score stats. Real RAPM does not look at box scores at all. So Magic doesn't rate as a better defender, he just doesn't rate as all. The stat doesn't exist before 96-97, and probably won't ever (since 96-97 seems to be the first season play-by-plays were recorded).

For real RAPM numbers, refer to this site:

sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/

and this:

ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt.blogspot.com

[Yao Ming's Foot]

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/1999.html

Robinson 6.0
Bradley 5.4
Mourning 5.3
Ostertag 5.2
Ratliff 4.8
Hakeem 4.7
Wallace 4.7
Ewing 4.6
Cato 3.9
Camby 3.6
1998-99 NBA All-Defensive (1st) Duncan 3.5


:biggums:

[LAL]

Not dismissing, nor affirming your premise OP, though its clear where your agenda lies, per your post history.

But just came to say this. No matter how much time feeble fans like yourself dedicate their days despising the likes of Kobe, LeBron, ect. and their rabid fanbases...and no matter how much your kind vows to diminish their value to the basketball community, the truth is that it's all obsolete to the highest degree.

Why? Because as long as legends, both past, present, and future talent that grew up idolizing those players continue to reiterate their greatness through their high praise, and thus continue to perpetuate their legacy through the walls of time, they will remain renowned monarchs in the kingdom of basketball enthusiasts.

It will take several...several generations of transcendent talent to dethrone the likes of Kobe, LeBron, and other polarizing figures in the game from their place in history. To erase them from our memories, or to revise history like posters like you so desperately attempt around here.

So carry on with your crusade, it's more bemusing than anything really. Just know that in the grand scheme of things, what you or I think doesn't matter, nor the disoriented sketch that advanced statistics portray without visual context. The media, coaches, former players, and current players will continue to herald the likes of Kobe and LeBron as All Time greats. And as long as they do, the grand efforts of devoted detractors like yourself will continue to prove to be meaningless.

**shrugs**
Sir i applaud you.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2000.html

Robinson 5.1
Mutombo 6.1
Mourning 4.9
Bradley 4.9
Outlaw 4.6
Ostertag 5.0
Wallace 5.2



1998-99 NBA All-Defensive (1st) Duncan 3.5

[Inferno]

Doesn't RAPM rank Jason Collins as having two of the best defensive seasons of all time?

Edit: Yep. https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/top-defensive-rapm

Stat dismissed.

:lol

[fpliii]

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/1999.html

Robinson 6.0
Bradley 5.4
Mourning 5.3
Ostertag 5.2
Ratliff 4.8
Hakeem 4.7
Wallace 4.7
Ewing 4.6
Cato 3.9
Camby 3.6
1998-99 NBA All-Defensive (1st) Duncan 3.5


:biggums:
Why do you keep linking that site, when it's been explained that it's not RAPM?

Just stop dude.

[Dro]

I mentioned LeBron because he falls in the same category. Many of you make a hobby out of diminishing the same 2-3 players' value. Every. Single. Day.
This is true...

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Why do you keep linking that site, when it's been explained that it's not RAPM?

Just stop dude.

This is real RAPM. You have the fake RAPM. You can tell since its hosted on google sites.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

How many of the top 30 Fake RAPM seasons of all time won all defensive team selection in their year?

Year Rank Name Defense per 100
2005 1 Jason Collins 6.3
2005 NPI 2 Jason Collins 5.8
2009 3 Kevin Garnett 5.6
2001 NPI 4 Shawn Bradley 5.5
2011 5 Kevin Garnett 5.3
2008 6 Kevin Garnett 5.2
2001 NPI 7 Dikembe Mutombo 4.8
2004 8 Ben Wallace 4.6
2002 NPI 9 Dikembe Mutombo 4.5
2003 NPI 10 Greg Ostertag 4.5
2010 11 Andrew Bogut 4.4
2001 NPI 12 Tim Duncan 4.4
2008 13 Chuck Hayes 4.3
2007 14 Kevin Garnett 4.3
2004 15 Tim Duncan 4.3
2002 NPI 16 Vlade Divac 4.3
2004 17 Kevin Garnett 4.2
2006 18 Shane Battier 4.2
2009 19 Andrew Bogut 4.1
2005 20 Brendan Haywood 4.1
2001 NPI 21 David Robinson 4.1
2010 22 Nick Collison 4.1
2007 23 Erick Dampier 4
2009 24 Joel Przybilla 4
2010 25 Kevin Garnett 4
2006 NPI 26 Metta World Peace 4
2005 NPI 27 Brendan Haywood 3.9
2010 28 Joel Przybilla 3.9
2009 29 Lamar Odom 3.9
2011 30 Luol Deng 3.9

:confusedshrug:

[zoom17]

This argument is beat to death.

[fpliii]

This is real RAPM. You have the fake RAPM. You can tell since its hosted on google sites.
:oldlol: wow....

I'm done here.

If you're confused and my word isn't good enough for you, stop by here:

www.apbr.org/metrics/

and J.E. (the maker of the stat) can educate you.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:oldlol: wow....

I'm done here.

If you're confused and my word isn't good enough for you, stop by here:

www.apbr.org/metrics/

and J.E. (the maker of the stat) can educate you.

Don't leave yet. We will use your stat. You fail to realize that "my stat" is just as valid as yours which means its just as irrelevant. Just nerds playing around with numbers and others with a limited understanding of them trying to justify some troll agenda.

How many of the top 30 all time RAPM seasons ended up with all defensive team awards?

[Johnny Jones]

Jason Collins is obviously the GOAT defensive player. RAPM says so.

[fpliii]

Don't leave yet. We will use your stat. You fail to realize that "my stat" is just as valid as yours which means its just as irrelevant. How many of the top 30 all time RAPM seasons ended up with all defensive team awards?
1) Look, you're a fellow Kobe guy so I won't push this further. You're a smart guy, you know why what you're arguing is faulty.

2) I'm not sure, of guys who aren't averaging only a few minutes. But if the data is overwhelming, at some point you have to question the all-defensive team awards.

I defended Kobe a couple of pages ago, but Garnett/Duncan are not overrated according to defensive RAPM. Their offensive reputations however, are. That's how it usually works.

You're my dude, but it's not worth continuing this.

Jason Collins is obviously the GOAT defensive player. RAPM says so.
Didn't you already say this once? I guess it didn't get the reaction that you wanted. As was discussed, you can't compare role players to guys playing 30-40 minutes consistently. Collins, however, was an excellent role player.

This is not the argument/example you want to choose if you're trying to dismiss RAPM.

Every time RAPM is mentioned on this board, people always try and find every mechanism to dismiss it. No clue why people are so threatened by the results.

But yeah, I'm done for real here.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

1) Look, you're a fellow Kobe guy so I won't push this further. You're a smart guy, you know why what you're arguing is faulty.

2) I'm not sure, of guys who aren't averaging only a few minutes. But if the data is overwhelming, at some point you have to question the all-defensive team awards.

I defended Kobe a couple of pages ago, but Garnett/Duncan are not overrated according to defensive RAPM. Their offensive reputations however, are. That's how it usually works.

You're my dude, but it's not worth continuing this.


That's the thing. They don't compare defensive metrics of other viable shooting guards of that particular season. They compare Kobe to big men and forwards. Those players were not being passed over by all defensive team voters when they selected Kobe at SG.

Even if we assume RAPM is an all knowing perfect metric where are all the SGs?

[fpliii]

That's the thing. They don't compare defensive metrics of other viable shooting guards of that particular season. They compare Kobe to big men and forwards. Those players were not being passed over by all defensive team voters when they selected Kobe at SG.

Even if we assume RAPM is an all knowing perfect metric where are all the SGs?
I agree with you here, you can't compare bigs to wings.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I agree with you here, you can't compare bigs to wings.

Not even wings... shooting guards.

PG-SG-SF-PF-C

The vast majority of all defensive team voters vote this way.

[fpliii]

Not even wings... shooting guards.

PG-SG-SF-PF-C

The vast majority of all defensive team voters vote this way.
True, it's:

G-G-C-F-F

so I guess we'd have to compare Kobe to PGs and SGs (or just SGs as you said).

[tpols]

I've always thought Lebron was the better defender. Bryant's off-ball D is horrendous in comparison to Lebron's. And look at what he did to Parker in the Finals. TP went from averaging 25 ppg on 59%TS against Memphis' elite D to averaging 15 ppg on 47%TS against the Heat. I mean, Parker was always a disappointing playoff performer but what Lebron did to him was nasty.
Go look at rondo number from 2010 against the cavs to what he did with kobe on him in the finals. That's the problem with ancedotes and generalizing off one example..and of course giving lebron all the credit for miami perimeter defense when they were one of the best in the league without him. Spo is a defensive coach.. always has been

[aj1987]

That depends. Are you going to pretend that you aren't a bandwagon Heat fan?

Alt? I will happily bet you that this is my first account EVER on this forum. Ask Jeff to do an IP check if I'm an alt of any poster on this forum.

Can you say the same, you lying little rodent?
Don't really care enough about retards like you to ask Jeff or whoever to do IP checks. You're calling me a bandwagon Heat fan? Yep. Most of us Heat fans get that when we support LeBron. ******s like you tend to exist only to hate on certain players. Anyone who supports that player gets labeled as a "bandwagon" fan.

Serious question. Are you gonna kill yourself after LeBron retires?

:oldlol: @ you acting like this isn't an alt account.

If you actually care enough, you can ask Jeff or whoever the **** you want to do an IP check.

[secund2nun]

It's starting to look like Kobe never was an impactful defender at ANY point in his career and that his all-defensive selections were undeserved. It's no coincidence that he's the only player on either team that had a negative impact on D. With advanced stats like RAPM becoming more and more commonplace, Kobe's reputation as a good defender is going to diminish in the coming years.

Yep Kobe is all hype. Anyone who has not been brainwashed by the Kobe propaganda can see this. Kobe is a myth.

[hitmanyr2k]

You're a ****ing moron, who probably didn't even watch a single full game of the 2013 NBA Finals. If you actually watched, you'd know that Parker was doubled by a combo of Wade/Bosh & Lebron/Bosh, Parker actually hit the 2nd biggest shot of that series over Lebron to close Game 1 on the road. Bosh was the key piece in that Miami defense in the Finals, anyone with any actual basketball knowledge knows that. Watch some tape & see how important Bosh actually was on defense in that series.

Parker could often get by Lebron with his first step, but Bosh & Wade helping out helped neutralize him in a big way. It's why Danny Green had a huge series, he got wide open 3s thanks to the double teams & he knocked them down at a historic rate in the first 5 games.

Here's a great article on Chris Bosh's defense in that series

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/6/21/4452340/nba-finals-heat-spurs-chris-bosh-defense

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2819929/boshtranblock.gif


A very detailed article about the defense Bosh played on Parker, Manu & Duncan, & it's just from Game 7. Now break down the tapes from the 6 other games of that series, where Bosh worked his ass of defending everyone else, providing great help defense & even playing elite perimeter defense on Parker & that huge block on Danny Green in OT of Game 6.

C'mon son!


Oh wait, there's more! Another detailed article with tons of footage regarding Chris Bosh's defense. Look at how he works on Parker, Duncan & Manu while Lebron is standing on the perimeter & looking at Danny Granger. But I guess Lebron did all the dirty work on defense & he's the clear cut greatest defensive player in the league!

http://www.nba.com/heat/news_recap/defensive-travels-chris-bosh


Great articles :applause: It only lends even more credence to what I was saying about Bosh a couple of months ago when someone tried to perpetuate that bullshit myth that Lebron shut Tony Parker down by himself :facepalm

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9443092&postcount=44

[DMAVS41]

Go look at rondo number from 2010 against the cavs to what he did with kobe on him in the finals. That's the problem with ancedotes and generalizing off one example..and of course giving lebron all the credit for miami perimeter defense when they were one of the best in the league without him. Spo is a defensive coach.. always has been

yea, but why give Kobe credit then?

Rondo against the Magic in ECF;

14/4/8 47% TS

Rondo against Lakers in Finals;

14/6/8 45% TS

Rondo against Heat in Round 1;

15/6/10 50% TS


Seems like Rond played about normal in the finals and just went off against an easy matchup against the Cavs for him.

:confusedshrug:

[eliteballer]

Thats why Kobe was designated the defensive stopper on the 2008 Olympic Team right?

[Combat Wombat]

Don't really care enough about retards like you to ask Jeff or whoever to do IP checks. You're calling me a bandwagon Heat fan? Yep. Most of us Heat fans get that when we support LeBron. ******s like you tend to exist only to hate on certain players. Anyone who supports that player gets labeled as a "bandwagon" fan.

Serious question. Are you gonna kill yourself after LeBron retires?

:oldlol: @ you acting like this isn't an alt account.

If you actually care enough, you can ask Jeff or whoever the **** you want to do an IP check.

There's only about two legit Heat fans on this forum and you sure as hell are not one of them.

Hate on certain players? Name me one player who I have shown any "hate" towards. Because the only one who has been hating is you. You're the one making threads to try and discredit the likes of Durant and Bryant to prop up Lebron, not me. You're the one going on about FT attempts with your fellow trolls, NumberSix and Silkthe**********, not me. During my time as a lurker, I remember you were non-stop shitting on Durant and Carmelo right after you signed up. You're a troll. Grow a set and admit it.

I will happily bet you a perma ban that this is my first ever account on this forum. Do you have the balls to take it or are you a p#ssy like livinlegend and the rest of the Lebron stans. Funny how you don't deny you are an alt, isn't it?

Kill myself when Lebron retires? No because unlike you, my happiness is not dependent on a man who couldn't give two shits about me.

[tpols]

yea, but why give Kobe credit then?

Rondo against the Magic in ECF;

14/4/8 47% TS

Rondo against Lakers in Finals;

14/6/8 45% TS

Rondo against Heat in Round 1;

15/6/10 50% TS


Seems like Rond played about normal in the finals and just went off against an easy matchup against the Cavs for him.

:confusedshrug:

Rondo averaged 21/12/6 on 54% against Lebron's Cavs.. he absolutely torched them.

He averaged 14/8/6 on 45% shooting against LA and that was with Kobe as one of his primary defenders..


Huge difference. You musta got the wrong numbers.

[buddha]

just further proof that these awards are handed out by idiots.

Kobe didn't deserve many of those all-defense selections but he did deserve a few MVP's.

we will see it this year with LeBron James making the all-defensive first team too

[DMAVS41]

Rondo averaged 21/12/6 on 54% against Lebron's Cavs.. he absolutely torched them.

He averaged 14/8/6 on 45% shooting against LA and that was with Kobe as one of his primary defenders..


Huge difference. You musta got the wrong numbers.

Did you even bother to read my post?

I said he torched the Cavs...but I asked why give Kobe credit?

Rondo played about the same vs the Lakers as he did the Magic and Heat in the playoffs that year.

The outlier was the Cavs series...acting like Kobe did something to hold down Rondo is laughable. The dude played roughly about as good as he did in every playoff game outside of the Cavs series.

Which is to say that the anomaly was Rondo going off...not what happened in the finals.

Rondo had a great matchup against the Cavs and took advantage of it. And not sure why that series means so much to you anyway.

The series before the finals Rondo put up 14/4/8 47% TS against the Magic.

But lets go crazy for Kobe holding him to 14/6/8 45% TS....GODBE

[tpols]

Did you even bother to read my post?

I said he torched the Cavs...but I asked why give Kobe credit?

Rondo played about the same vs the Lakers as he did the Magic and Heat in the playoffs that year.

The outlier was the Cavs series...acting like Kobe did something to hold down Rondo is laughable. The dude played roughly about as good as he did in every playoff game outside of the Cavs series.

Which is to say that the anomaly was Rondo going off...not what happened in the finals.

Rondo had a great matchup against the Cavs and took advantage of it. And not sure why that series means so much to you anyway.

The series before the finals Rondo put up 14/4/8 47% TS against the Magic.

But lets go crazy for Kobe holding him to 14/6/8 45% TS....GODBE

I wasn't saying it to boost kobe.. I was saying it as an example that lebron shouldn't get full credit for shutting down parker..like what the person I quoted was saying.

Lebron guarded parker mostly later in the series and only at the end of games. Guy was worn out and had a calf injury resurface. Lebron was simply shadowing him with great help/trap defense being provided on both sides as Spurs didn't have anyone else to create/dribble for them late in games.

Kobe was doing the same to rondo shadowing him and taking away the paint or funnel ing him into bigs. It was all a team defense.

[DMAVS41]

I wasn't saying it to boost kobe.. I was saying it as an example that lebron shouldn't get full credit for shutting down parker..like what the person I quoted was saying.

Lebron guarded parker mostly later in the series and only at the end of games. Guy was worn out and had a calf injury resurface. Lebron was simply shadowing him with great help/trap defense being provided on both sides as Spurs didn't have anyone else to create/dribble for them late in games.

Kobe was doing the same to rondo shadowing him and taking away the paint or funnel ing him into bigs. It was all a team defense.

Oh of course...

[Fire Colangelo]

I wasn't saying it to boost kobe.. I was saying it as an example that lebron shouldn't get full credit for shutting down parker..like what the person I quoted was saying.

Lebron guarded parker mostly later in the series and only at the end of games. Guy was worn out and had a calf injury resurface. Lebron was simply shadowing him with great help/trap defense being provided on both sides as Spurs didn't have anyone else to create/dribble for them late in games.

Kobe was doing the same to rondo shadowing him and taking away the paint or funnel ing him into bigs. It was all a team defense.

I agree, I see people crediting Lebron for shutting down Rose/Parker etc, truth is he guards them for a few minutes in the 4th while they're already fatigued, not saying Lebron isn't a good defender, he's just overrated by some. He can't guard PFs, doesn't guard KD/Melo when they play. He's a good team defender, a great one, but he's not shutting anyone down.