Is Lebron an Elite Passer?

[wildchild]

I was in an intellectual discussion with a poster named tmacattack something like that in a deleted thread entitled "Lebron is clutch" and he brought up that Lebron was an elite passer. I wish to counter that but the thread got deleted.

Lebron James has a career average of 3.3 tov and 6.9 apg is considered by some of his stans an elite passer. Good passer yes, but elite... :facepalm

Well if they mean passing up an open shot to protect his fg%... yep he's elite at that.

[riseagainst]

very very good. But not elite.

[Jlamb47]

He is not elite :facepalm
his passing is stupid overrated. He draws double teams in the paint to leave a man open but he isnt what people make it

[Mass Debator]

He's an elite passer. His dimes are right on the money and can make any possible pass. He can do it on the perimeter, in the paint, or from the post. Elite.

Vision on the other hand is just good to great. What makes him so effective is his ball handling skills with his size. He doesn't need a lot of assists. He averages like 27 points lol.

[aburre21]

Bron's court vision is stupendous. Hell yeah he is an elite passer. If he's not then I don't know who is.

[russwest0]

6.5 assists per game and 4 turnovers per game is elite now?

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Not to mention he dominates the ball roughly 33% more than guys that get the same amount of assists as him. (They have stats to prove this.) And I'm sure those guys would love to have the supporting cast that LeBron has.

[20Four]

He is not elite :facepalm
his passing is stupid overrated. He draws double teams in the paint to leave a man open but he isnt what people make it
On point my brotha.....since this niqqa gets double teamed a lot, when he passes it seems amazing because the other player is WIDE OPEN, mostly ESPN hyping the b|tch

[ForeverHeat]

Lebron is an elite passer. Elite vision and more often then not great execution. He isnt a point guard though so his assists are never gonna match up to a point guard. He also has to score points and perform a lot of other tasks for a team which a point guard hasnt got to worry about.

[20Four]

Lebron is an elite passer. Elite vision and more often then not great execution. He isnt a point guard though so his assists are never gonna match up to a point guard. He also has to score points and perform a lot of other tasks for a team which a point guard hasnt got to worry about.
Your name says it all lol prolly a new heat fan since they started winning :roll: :roll:

[HoopsFanNumero1]

He also averages 27.5 ppg. If he was a full time PG, he'd obviously average more assists.

[DaSeba5]

Yes, especially for his position.

[ForeverHeat]

Your name says it all lol prolly a new heat fan since they started winning :roll: :roll:

Stfu what the hell do you know about me? Watch your mouth you retarded roided midget.

[wildchild]

6.5 assists per game and 4 turnovers per game is elite now?

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

This is what I'm talking about. How do you even consider that elite if you turn the ball that high. The ratio is not good.

This is what an elite passer's stat should look like

Some career average of "guess who?" players

2.2 tov 10.5 apg
2.5 tov 9.9 apg

[wildchild]

On point my brotha.....since this niqqa gets double teamed a lot, when he passes it seems amazing because the other player is WIDE OPEN, mostly ESPN hyping the b|tch

True. This guys knows what's up.

[wildchild]

He also averages 27.5 ppg. If he was a full time PG, he'd obviously average more assists.

If he was a full time pg, he would probably average 8 tov and 12 apg

[KyrieTheFuture]

People saying he's always passing out of a double team so its easy...wat? Y'all ever actually played basketball? It's not easy to pass out of a double team that accurately.

[ForeverHeat]

This is what I'm talking about. How do you even consider that elite if you turn the ball that high. The ratio is not good.

This is what an elite passer's stat should look like

Some career average of "guess who?" players

2.2 tov 10.5 apg
2.5 tov 9.9 apg

A lot of Lebrons turnovers come from drives and breakaway opportunities he messes up. He also lets himself get taken into a cul-de-sac at times when hes trying to draw a double team. Its pointless looking at assist stats because Lebrons job in this Heat offense goes way further then just assisting guys, even though he is very good at that aspect.

[tmacattack33]

Anyone bringing up TO in a discussion of someone's passing vision and skills needs to leave.

A turnover can be the result of: having the ball stripped, stepping out of bounds, holding the ball when the 24 second clock goes off, a charge or offensive foul (I am pretty sure on this but not 100%), a backcourt violation, etc.

Anyway, yes, Lebron's a top 5 passer in the game today easily. I believe he's top 3, but it is okay to put him at number 4 or 5.

[Jlamb47]

Lebron might as well be a full time point gaurd he holds the ball just as much as them.

[Le Shaqtus]

Yes definitely, but stans will overblow his passing ability.

There was one thread where he made the most simple pass past an opposing player to someone at the 3 point line and they were like "PASS OF THE YEAR"

[IncarceratedBob]

He's only a good passer for a forward

Compared to guards he's garbage

[ForeverHeat]

He's only a good passer for a forward

Compared to guards he's garbage

Your only a good poster for a retard.

Compared to normal people your garbage.

[tmacattack33]

Your only a good poster for a retard.

Compared to normal people your garbage.

:oldlol:

[Trollsmasher]

Yeah, let's talk about Assists/TO while forgetting that the man has the 3rd highest average ppg of all time:lol


Your only a good poster for a retard.

Compared to normal people your garbage.
apply cold water

[IGOTGAME]

If Lebron wanted to he could lead the league in assists.

[wildchild]

If Lebron wanted to he could lead the league in assists and turnovers

Fixed. You're welcome!

[tmacattack33]

I was in an intellectual discussion with a poster named tmacattack something like that in a deleted thread entitled "Lebron is clutch" and he brought up that Lebron was an elite passer. I wish to counter that but the thread got deleted.

Lebron James has a career average of 3.3 tov and 6.9 apg is considered by some of his stans an elite passer. Good passer yes, but elite... :facepalm

Well if they mean passing up an open shot to protect his fg%... yep he's elite at that.


Well thanks for that compliment at least :rockon:

[wildchild]

Well thanks for that compliment at least :rockon:

fk you! :cheers:

[russwest0]

If Lebron wanted to he could lead the league in assists.

Just like if he wanted he could average 50/40/90 too, or lead the league in scoring :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[madmax17]

Larry Bird was elite passer bro

[Le Shaqtus]

Just like if he wanted he could average 50/40/90 too, or lead the league in scoring :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

He's been a scoring champion before :confusedshrug:

[IGOTGAME]

Just like if he wanted he could average 50/40/90 too, or lead the league in scoring :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
if he felt like like getting 35 a night he could and no one could stop him. This is especially true a couple years ago.

[inclinerator]

yes he is an elite passer

[russwest0]

if he felt like like getting 35 a night he could and no one could stop him. This is especially true a couple years ago.

so he didn't even feel like scoring 25 vs the Rockets, Spurs, or Bulls? :lol

What the hell was he trying to do then? His team got their asses kicked

[IGOTGAME]

so he didn't even feel like scoring 25 vs the Rockets, Spurs, or Bulls? :lol

What the hell was he trying to do then? His team got their asses kicked

his primary goal isnt to win ever regular season game. it isn't to get 25 a night. it is to win a championship AGAIN. It doesn't make sense for him to put out the energy needed to drop 35 a night because the goal is to win a title.

[russwest0]

Ah, so yes, everytime LeBron plays like shit = did it on purpose since he only cares about winning the title

everytime kobe plays like shit = chucker!!!

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[riseagainst]

Ah, so yes, everytime LeBron plays like shit = did it on purpose since he only cares about winning the title

everytime kobe plays like shit = chucker!!!

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

:lol

these sad, agenda-driven stans. Have no common sense.

[AirFederer]

Yes he is. I can't see the arguments against

[navy]

For a small foward yes. It really isnt arguable. He isnt a point guard though.

[20Four]

Stfu what the hell do you know about me? Watch your mouth you retarded roided midget.
Mad because im right? LOL niqqa plz

[aj1987]

How many PG's do you idiots know that average 27.5 PPG along with 7 APG?

Also, to the retards who are bringing up Assist to TOV ratio, Larry Bird, a player who most people consider an ELITE passer and the greatest passing forward, averaged 6 assists and 3.1 TOV's a game. LeBron averages 6.9 with 3.3 TOV's a game.


OP is Cecil, BTW (Fresh Kid).


Mad because im right? LOL niqqa plz
Was is the roids that shrunk your dick? 2"? Damn, son!

[riseagainst]

why are people bringing up points? Isn't this thread about passing?

:coleman:

[Random_Guy]

why are people bringing up points? Isn't this thread about passing?

:coleman:
they are just emphasizing that he can get his assists even though he has to carry such a large offensive load,shows how good of a passer he is.

[red1]

absolutely. how can you argue otherwise

[riseagainst]

they are just emphasizing that he can get his assists even though he has to carry such a large offensive load,shows how good of a passer he is.

that only shows how much he has the ball in his hands and maybe his playmaking abilities. Passing can only be judged by watching him play. It can't be measured by numbers....

[AintNoSunshine]

10 times better passer than Durant and Kobe sounds pretty elite to me.

[pegasus]

I despise him but yes he is an elite passer. His court vision and the accuracy of his passes are great.

I honestly think that it is the only thing he can do at an elite level though.

Handles: above average for his size but nothing compared to good-to-elite guards

Shooting: average at best - I can find five better and more consistent shooters in every team in the league

Slashing: average - players like Westbrook, Rose, Wade are elite at this, not him

Playing off the ball: improved a bit but still average

Defense: 1-on-1 average at best, gets blown by easily without help defense - very good help defender but has been lazy this year

Post moves: improved, and probably above average, but definitely not elite, and doesn't use it enough anyways

Fastbreaks: Above average - I'd say "elite" if it wasn't for the bulldozing and pushing-off that he constantly gets away with. He relies on that instead of showing agility to change direction. Again, the players mentioned above are elite at this and can finish plays without committing offensive fouls.

[tmacattack33]

that only shows how much he has the ball in his hands and maybe his playmaking abilities. Passing can only be judged by watching him play. It can't be measured by numbers....

Yes, and by watching his passes it is obvious he is one step of the defenders and has amazing vision.

And no, he does not have the ball in his hands more than anyone else. http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingTouches.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=25&sortField=TOP&sortOrder=DES

That link ^ tracks the time of possession for each player in the league. Lebron isn't even in the top 25. So please stop making stuff up, because these days there is video and stats that people can post to make you look foolish.

[red1]

I despise him but yes he is an elite passer. His court vision and the accuracy of his passes are great.

I honestly think that it is the only thing he can do at an elite level though.

Handles: above average for his size but nothing compared to good-to-elite guards

Shooting: average at best - I can find five better and more consistent shooters in every team in the league

Slashing: average - players like Westbrook, Rose, Wade are elite at this, not him

Playing off the ball: improved a bit but still average

Defense: 1-on-1 average at best, gets blown by easily without help defense - very good help defender but has been lazy this year

Post moves: improved, and probably above average, but definitely not elite, and doesn't use it enough anyways

Fastbreaks: Above average - I'd say "elite" if it wasn't for the bulldozing and pushing-off that he constantly gets away with. He relies on that instead of showing agility to change direction. Again, the players mentioned above are elite at this and can finish plays without committing offensive fouls.
This is less biased than I expected given who it is coming from but even still I disagree. He easily has elite finishing ability/ touch around the rim and ball IQ

[20Four]

Foreverheat just mad because he hopped on the heat bandwagon lmao :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Marlo_Stanfield]

whoever says lebron is not an elite passer is 100% insane, disturbed andn should seek medical help.
so basically a Kobetard

[20Four]

whoever says lebron is not an elite passer is 100% insane, disturbed andn should seek medical help.
so basically a Kobetard
*Smack yourself son*

[Marlo_Stanfield]

[QUOTE=20Four]I

[Kblaze8855]

Shooting: average at best - I can find five better and more consistent shooters in every team in the league

Slashing: average - players like Westbrook, Rose, Wade are elite at this, not him

Playing off the ball: improved a bit but still average

Defense: 1-on-1 average at best, gets blown by easily without help defense - very good help defender but has been lazy this year

Post moves: improved, and probably above average, but definitely not elite, and doesn't use it enough anyways

Fastbreaks: Above average

So an average at best shooter...who is also an average slasher...an above average post player who doesnt use it much.... while being average off the ball and only above average on the break....is outscoring 357 of the 360 active players in the NBA.

Those claims wouldnt even be fair of Andre Iguodala.

That said....

Elite passer?

Hard to say. How far do you want to stretch elite? He cant really compare to the likes of Chris Paul or any number of points passing off the dribble.

For his size hes all time elite with only 2-3 peers(2 id put above him). Bottom line he isnt. You have to include too many points to still have him elite.

[Rake2204]

I think it depends upon one's definition of elite. Personally, I believe his court vision and passing ability are both amongst the best in the world, particularly for a player of his size. In fact, I think the passing aspect of his game is what makes him so unique and spectacular. He's not merely a high volume gunner who falls into the widely shared notion that, since he's a star, he's supposed to take 27 fallaways all game.

That said, I think his game is morphed a little over the years. It's interesting to watch him play as a rookie, as he seemed much more point guard-like, with incredible vision and dimes being dropped left and right: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Kl0Z-6HLlw

[J Shuttlesworth]

I despise him but yes he is an elite passer. His court vision and the accuracy of his passes are great.

I honestly think that it is the only thing he can do at an elite level though.

Handles: above average for his size but nothing compared to good-to-elite guards

Shooting: average at best - I can find five better and more consistent shooters in every team in the league

Slashing: average - players like Westbrook, Rose, Wade are elite at this, not him

Playing off the ball: improved a bit but still average

Defense: 1-on-1 average at best, gets blown by easily without help defense - very good help defender but has been lazy this year

Post moves: improved, and probably above average, but definitely not elite, and doesn't use it enough anyways

Fastbreaks: Above average - I'd say "elite" if it wasn't for the bulldozing and pushing-off that he constantly gets away with. He relies on that instead of showing agility to change direction. Again, the players mentioned above are elite at this and can finish plays without committing offensive fouls.
I agree with most of this, but I think he is pretty elite when it comes to slashing/finishing at the rim.

[LeGOAT]

Most of Lebron's turnovers are off of offensive fouls, travels, and losing his dribble. He very rarely throws the ball away. He "only" gets 7 assists per game because he's also scoring 27 per game. He could EASILY drop 10 assists per game

[sbw19]

Excellent passer, elite playmaker. If elite is 9.5/10 LeBron is in the 8.5-9 range.

[tpols]

Lebron is an elite passer. Elite vision and more often then not great execution. He isnt a point guard though so his assists are never gonna match up to a point guard. He also has to score points and perform a lot of other tasks for a team which a point guard hasnt got to worry about.
What do you mean he by he isn't a point guard? He handles the ball just as much as any pg in the league..

[LeGOAT]

What do you mean he by he isn't a point guard? He handles the ball just as much as any pg in the league..
He doesnt pass as much as most pgs in the league either. Doesnt mean he's not an elite passer.

[T.O.RapsJays]

This is less biased than I expected given who it is coming from but even still I disagree. He easily has elite finishing ability/ touch around the rim and ball IQ

This, foul or not, LeBron is one of the best finishers ever, he's one of those players that just can't be stopped when he's running at you, he still manages to finish at an elite level even when a foul was legitimately committed.

[Joyner82reload]

He's an elite passer, but his playmaking ability is not maximized. He can't create offense with regularity like the greats(Stockton, Paul, Kidd, Nash). He's elite for a non PG, one of the greatest in history. But he's not even top 20 all time in terms of playmaking, elite PG's generally shit on him in ability to create offense.

[red1]

So an average at best shooter...who is also an average slasher...an above average post player who doesnt use it much.... while being average off the ball and only above average on the break....is outscoring 357 of the 360 active players in the NBA.

Those claims wouldnt even be fair of Andre Iguodala.

That said....

Elite passer?

Hard to say. How far do you want to stretch elite? He cant really compare to the likes of Chris Paul or any number of points passing off the dribble.

For his size hes all time elite with only 2-3 peers(2 id put above him). Bottom line he isnt. You have to include too many points to still have him elite.
Oh yeah definitely. It was assumed that op meant for passing for position.

[Trollsmasher]

Most of Lebron's turnovers are off of offensive fouls, travels, and losing his dribble. He very rarely throws the ball away. He "only" gets 7 assists per game because he's also scoring 27 per game. He could EASILY drop 10 assists per game
basketballreference says different, most of his turnovers come from bad passing and I would agree - he is prone to lazy passing and slippery fingers of his teammates

[JT123]

Anyone who says he isn't an elite passer has never played a second of competitive basketball in their lives. I have never seen a player make so many accurate cross court passes! :bowdown: Announcers constantly acknowledge this, saying he is the only player who could make those passes.

[pauk]

Passing ability & Court vision is not measured by assists.... sorry... Lebron's passing ability is one of the 10 best i ever seen, in that 10 it includes other guys who were not point-guards aswell like Larry Bird & Pete Maravich...

[Marlo_Stanfield]

who says he isnt an elite passer AND playmaker should be permabanned

[pauk]

Speaking of assists, leading the league in assists or something has mostly to do with a starting PG passing the ball 24-7.... Lebron could average even more assists by just starting PG (more balldomination) better yet pass the ball all the time... its not me just saying it, he has proved he could do it... for example here is Lebron playing/starting PG when Mo Williams was injured:

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/Untitled-2-2.png

If he didnt score that much there either the assists would go even further up logically....

Lebron averages more assists than any non-PG in NBA history....
Lebron had the highest APG average than any non-PG in NBA history (well, Wilt, tied)....
Lebron will become the only non-PG in NBA history to reach top 20 and/or even top 10 in total assists....

So however you want to twist & turn it Lebron pretty much is an elite passer i would say....

[Joyner82reload]

Passing ability & Court vision is not measured by assists.... sorry... Lebron's passing ability is one of the 10 best i ever seen, in that 10 it includes other guys who were not point-guards aswell like Larry Bird & Pete Maravich...

He's not a better playmaker than any of these players and it's not even arguable: Magic, Nash, Stockton, CP3, Kidd, Maravich, Payton, Frazier, Thomas, Rondo, K. Johnson, Hardaway, Br. Knight.

He's an elite passer in today's game, and one of the GOAT not pg passers, but in terms of all time? He's very good, but not elite by any stretch of the imagination.

[LeGOAT]

He's not a better playmaker than any of these players and it's not even arguable: Magic, Nash, Stockton, CP3, Kidd, Maravich, Payton, Frazier, Thomas, Rondo, K. Johnson, Hardaway, Br. Knight.

He's an elite passer in today's game, and one of the GOAT not pg passers, but in terms of all time? He's very good, but not elite by any stretch of the imagination.
:biggums:

[Joyner82reload]

Speaking of assists, leading the league in assists or something has mostly to do with a starting PG passing the ball 24-7.... Lebron could average even more assists by just starting PG (more balldomination) better yet pass the ball all the time... its not me just saying it, he has proved he could do it... for example here is Lebron playing/starting PG when Mo Williams was injured:

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/Untitled-2-2.png

If he didnt score that much there either the assists would go even further up logically....

Lebron averages more assists than any non-PG in NBA history....
Lebron had the highest APG average than any non-PG in NBA history (well, Wilt, tied)....
Lebron will become the only non-PG in NBA history to reach top 20 and/or even top 10 in total assists....

So however you want to twist & turn it Lebron pretty much is an elite passer i would say....

And this was a stretch when Jordan was forced to play PG for the Bulls.

http://oi61.tinypic.com/2e542fo.jpg

How often to you hear Jordan referred to as one of the greatest passers/playmakers in NBA history?

[pauk]

He's not a better playmaker than any of these players and it's not even arguable: Magic, Nash, Stockton, CP3, Kidd, Maravich, Payton, Frazier, Thomas, Rondo, K. Johnson, Hardaway, Br. Knight.

He's an elite passer in today's game, and one of the GOAT not pg passers, but in terms of all time? He's very good, but not elite by any stretch of the imagination.

Oh Joyner... im surprised you didnt discredit Lebron any harder.... you are improving...

...and nah, i cant name that many guys who keep accumulating a vast abundance of passes like these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-zhe-5ORA

The only guy who's passing ability i thought was kindof significantly better than Lebron's is Magic Johnson.... and he was by far the best passer in any department of all time i think...

[Kblaze8855]

Im assuming he meaans Brevin Knight. Who was a good playmaker but not quite so good as his numbers suggest. Id remove him and add TJ Ford.

[russwest0]

blah blah blah

Did I read this right? You want LeBron to dominate the ball even MORE?

[Solefade]

lol reading all of lebron's detractor's posts would make you think he's just an average basketball player

[pauk]

You can try to belittle many things with Lebron.... but passing ability is the absolutely last thing.... even since highschool elite passing skills has been very natural for him (which was at the level of anybody in the NBA at that time even then imo)... all scouts used to praise the hell out of it, all reports started first with that infact like: http://www.nbadraft.net/players/lebron-james

Lebron was very hyped, but his passing ability was even more hyped for a reason and is one of the main reasons why he was that hyped as a player actually...

I mean if he didnt have those passing skills & pointguard skills at that size and simply being/becoming probably the most unselfish high magnitude scorer of all time (Bird? arguably).... i probably wouldnt have found him that special at all and neither would many..... he would be just another strict scorer... yay... this is actually the main reason why i started to fancy Lebron's game....

[tmacattack33]

He's not a better playmaker than any of these players and it's not even arguable: Magic, Nash, Stockton, CP3, Kidd, Maravich, Payton, Frazier, Thomas, Rondo, K. Johnson, Hardaway, Br. Knight.

He's an elite passer in today's game, and one of the GOAT not pg passers, but in terms of all time? He's very good, but not elite by any stretch of the imagination.

He has better vision that Gary Payton for sure, and probably Penny Hardaway

And I haven't seen as much of Brandon Knight, but I'd bet that Lebron's vision is better.

[Solefade]

he might not have better vision than the PGs OP listed but it's comparable and whatever he lacks in vision, he makes up with the accuracy and speed of his passes.

[Joyner82reload]

He has better vision that Gary Payton for sure, and probably Penny Hardaway

And I haven't seen as much of Brandon Knight, but I'd bet that Lebron's vision is better.

That would be Tim Hardaway, not Penny Hardaway. He was certainly not a better creator than Gary Payton and that's not Brandon Knight. It's Brevin Knight.

[sd3035]

He's a mediocre passer who just has the ball all the time. Nearly all of his assists come because his team is stacked with shooters, and they are forced to jack up shots after he runs down the clock and dumps it off to them

[JohnFreeman]

For his position? Absolutely.

[The-Legend-24]

Ah, so yes, everytime LeBron plays like shit = did it on purpose since he only cares about winning the title

everytime kobe plays like shit = chucker!!!

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
:oldlol: :applause:

Kobe, Durant, Westbrook, and Rose are all better passers.

Bran's passing is above average.

[tmacattack33]

That would be Tim Hardaway, not Penny Hardaway. He was certainly not a better creator than Gary Payton and that's not Brandon Knight. It's Brevin Knight.


Well then its even worse because Penny had better vision than Tim.

And Gary Payton never had amazing vision.

You seem to speaking of overall playmaking ability instead of who is the better passer. To help make this point clear, in terms of playmaking Allen Iverson > Sabonis. In terms of passing, Sabonis > Iverson.

[Bandito]

You can try to belittle many things with Lebron.... but passing ability is the absolutely last thing.... even since highschool elite passing skills has been very natural for him (which was at the level of anybody in the NBA at that time even then imo)... all scouts used to praise the hell out of it, all reports started first with that infact like: http://www.nbadraft.net/players/lebron-james

Lebron was very hyped, but his passing ability was even more hyped for a reason and is one of the main reasons why he was that hyped as a player actually...

I mean if he didnt have those passing skills & pointguard skills at that size and simply being/becoming probably the most unselfish high magnitude scorer of all time (Bird? arguably).... i probably wouldnt have found him that special at all and neither would many..... he would be just another strict scorer... yay... this is actually the main reason why i started to fancy Lebron's pen1s....:biggums:

[SpaceJammeR]

ofcourse he is especially at his position. at least every game he has a ridiculous pass. take your googles off and quit hating on greatness. watch his passing highlights

[aj1987]

lol reading all of lebron's detractor's posts would make you think he's just an average basketball player
According to people on this board, LeBron is a shitty scorer, a shitty defender, a below average passer, and a mediocre rebounder. Makes you wonder how he's averaging 27.5/7/7 on near 50% over his 11 year career, while winning 4 MVP's, 2 rings, and 2 FMVP's. Only 4 players have more FMVP's than him and only 3 players have more MVP's than him.

[kamil]

http://oi57.tinypic.com/29bzuqt.jpg

[20Four]

Mutha ****as in here overate leBRONZE passing game just like how ESPN overHYPES everything leBRONZE does... :roll: :roll:

[aj1987]

Mutha ****as in here overate leBRONZE passing game just like how ESPN overHYPES everything leBRONZE does... :roll: :roll:
What up, micro dick?

[20Four]

What up, micro dick?
Someone is mad that I take care of myself and I'm glad that my hard work is paying off at the gym....lol :roll: :roll:

You must be a fat fvck...lol :oldlol: :oldlol:

Also...dont talk to me heat bandwagon fan... :no:

Dvmbass chump jus shut yo fvcking mouth dumb b|tch :cheers:

[bukowski81]

his primary goal isnt to win ever regular season game. it isn't to get 25 a night. it is to win a championship AGAIN. It doesn't make sense for him to put out the energy needed to drop 35 a night because the goal is to win a title.

Lebron is not the only one saving energy for the playoffs, all contenders are doing that.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

Someone is mad that I take care of myself and I'm glad that my hard work is paying off at the gym....lol :roll: :roll:

You must be a fat fvck...lol :oldlol: :oldlol:

Also...dont talk to me heat bandwagon fan... :no:

Dvmbass chump jus shut yo fvcking mouth dumb b|tch :cheers:
Is that you in the avvy?
Nothing impressive really. On a sidenote you look like white trash.

[LoneyROY7]

Is this a serious question?

LeBron is the best 4th quarter passer the league has ever seen. :bowdown:

[aj1987]

Someone is mad that I take care of myself and I'm glad that my hard work is paying off at the gym....lol :roll: :roll:

You must be a fat fvck...lol :oldlol: :oldlol:

Also...dont talk to me heat bandwagon fan... :no:

Dvmbass chump jus shut yo fvcking mouth dumb b|tch :cheers:
Dude, you have ****ing man boobs and you're calling others fat? Roided out micro dick midget. :oldlol:

[Nash]

I despise him but yes he is an elite passer. His court vision and the accuracy of his passes are great.

I honestly think that it is the only thing he can do at an elite level though.

Handles: above average for his size but nothing compared to good-to-elite guards

Shooting: average at best - I can find five better and more consistent shooters in every team in the league

Slashing: average - players like Westbrook, Rose, Wade are elite at this, not him

Playing off the ball: improved a bit but still average

Defense: 1-on-1 average at best, gets blown by easily without help defense - very good help defender but has been lazy this year

Post moves: improved, and probably above average, but definitely not elite, and doesn't use it enough anyways

Fastbreaks: Above average - I'd say "elite" if it wasn't for the bulldozing and pushing-off that he constantly gets away with. He relies on that instead of showing agility to change direction. Again, the players mentioned above are elite at this and can finish plays without committing offensive fouls.
Not sure if one of the best talents in NBA history or Brian Scalabrine.

[LEFT4DEAD]

lol reading all of lebron's detractor's posts would make you think he's just an average basketball player
:lol this
sometimes when I read all those haters' posts on ISH, I would think they are posting about some D-League player and not about top 3 talent of all times. Incredible :roll:

[DFish24]

Very good, but not elite.

[buddha]

how is LeBron not a full-time pg? he dominates the ball, brings it up court and runs the offense..

when you idiots say if he was a full-time PG what are you actually saying?

[aj1987]

how is LeBron not a full-time pg? he dominates the ball, brings it up court and runs the offense..

when you idiots say if he was a full-time PG what are you actually saying?
Just shows that you don't watch too many Heat games. Chalmers is the one who usually brings it up. LeBron does it sometimes as well, but not as much as you guys think he does. Then, he shares the ball handling duties with Wade, Rio, Cole, and Allen. Read a couple of Heat GT's. You'll see how a bunch of people complaining about Rio, Cole, and Allen handling the ball instead of Wade and LeBron. Let's also not forget that LeBron plays with another great passer in Wade, who's averaging 5 assists per game.

[The-Legend-24]

Is this a serious question?

LeBron is the best 4th quarter passer the league has ever seen. :bowdown:
:oldlol: :oldlol:

[ImKobe]

Of course he's an elite passer. Anyone debating otherwise is a damn fool. Just because he doesn't average that many assists in Miami doesn't mean he's not elite. Statistically, he's just above-average as a passer right now if you look at his AST-TO ratio, but if you watch him play you'd know only a few players in the league can pass like Lebron.

Just look at him in his Cleveland days, the guy averaged 29.7 with 8.6 assists a game, how many guys have actually done that?

[ILLsmak]

Someone is mad that I take care of myself and I'm glad that my hard work is paying off at the gym....lol :roll: :roll:

You must be a fat fvck...lol :oldlol: :oldlol:

Also...dont talk to me heat bandwagon fan... :no:

Dvmbass chump jus shut yo fvcking mouth dumb b|tch :cheers:

y u keep posting new pix with less clothes tho?

-Smak

[tmacattack33]

how is LeBron not a full-time pg? he dominates the ball, brings it up court and runs the offense..

when you idiots say if he was a full-time PG what are you actually saying?

They are saying that if he was a full-time PG he'd be a full-time PG and bring the ball up the court more than Chalmers and Cole (this would allow him to say, notice that Bosh is open for an easy shot and make a quick pass to him). And in Cleveland he did just that for 15 games when Mo Williams and Delonte West were injured and he averaged like 25 points and 12 assists per game.




Also, I already posted a link that shows time of possession for each player. Lebron isn't even in the top 30 (which mostly consists of PG's). You can ignore that if you want.

[freshperry]

What is the metric for determining if a passer is elite? In my opinion players like LBJ and Ginobli are elite passers but I can also see why people would disagree. Who are some elite passers (other then the obvious Magic, etc etc)

[Prometheus]

y u keep posting new pix with less clothes tho?

-Smak

http://chambers.vic.edu.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/tumblr_m4c18nD7hn1qhr47r.gif

[ForeverHeat]

y u keep posting new pix with less clothes tho?

-Smak


:lebronamazed:













































http://gifrific.gifrific.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/michael-jordan-laugh.gif

[tmacattack33]

What is the metric for determining if a passer is elite? In my opinion players like LBJ and Ginobli are elite passers but I can also see why people would disagree. Who are some elite passers (other then the obvious Magic, etc etc)

You just watch their passes. Players with elite vision seem to be able to see the future.

They have great reaction time, and its like they can sense where the defense is headed... so then they pass the ball to the player who will be open in a second, not the player who is already open right now.

Chris Paul and Rondo have elite vision. These guys are obvious though because anyone can see from their assist totals that they must be good passers.

Some lesser known players with elite/great vision would be Noah and Ginobli. Andre Igoudala and Pau Gasol would be close to that level as well. Spencer Hawes is also a sick passer but he really isn't good at too many other things, so he won't get too many assists.

[Simple Jack]

So an average at best shooter...who is also an average slasher...an above average post player who doesnt use it much.... while being average off the ball and only above average on the break....is outscoring 357 of the 360 active players in the NBA.

Those claims wouldnt even be fair of Andre Iguodala.

That said....

Elite passer?

Hard to say. How far do you want to stretch elite? He cant really compare to the likes of Chris Paul or any number of points passing off the dribble.

For his size hes all time elite with only 2-3 peers(2 id put above him). Bottom line he isnt. You have to include too many points to still have him elite.

Naturally, pegasus won't respond to this.

[Graviton]

Who was the PG for the Olympic team again? Oh yea Lebron not CP3 or Deron. He was the one setting everyone up and handling the offense.

James can make passes that no midget point guard can, he is 6'8 and sees over the defense. His wrist strength also allows him to make accurate cross court bullet passes, behind the back bounce passes that I haven't seen anyone else complete as consistently. He can make any pass CP3 can, but he can also pull off some amazing stuff that a typical PG can't thanks to his height/strength.

But looking at the stats alone wouldn't tell you all that, you need to pay attention to how he runs the offense. He may have some extra turnovers since his ball handling and security isn't as good as a midget PG with low dribble, but his actual passes are "elite".

[La Frescobaldi]

Yeah, let's talk about Assists/TO while forgetting that the man has the 3rd highest average ppg of all time:lol


apply cold water

http://s3-media4.ak.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/iT4MCdnCcqg5CVN-Fj4L6g/l.jpg

[CavaliersFTW]

I think Kobe's latest dime tops all of Pauks top 10 LeBron "wrist strength" passes

http://www.nba.com/video/games/lakers/2015/12/16/0021500370-mil-lal-play9.nba/

[FKAri]

I think Kobe's latest dime tops all of Pauks top 10 LeBron "wrist strength" passes

http://www.nba.com/video/games/lakers/2015/12/16/0021500370-mil-lal-play9.nba/

Not even Kobe's best pass of the season. Also, Lebron is a better passer than Kobe so I don't know where you're going with this.

[stalkerforlife]

Not even Kobe's best pass of the season. Also, Lebron is a better passer than Kobe so I don't know where you're going with this.

Kobe's led 5 title teams in assists.

How many has Bran led?

[3ball]

Not even Kobe's best pass of the season. Also, Lebron is a better passer than Kobe so I don't know where you're going with this.



Lebron's assists are achieved by lowering the assists of teammates - this is statistical fact:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'): 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with... Lebron (2015):... 5.2, 25.0%

Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN: 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron: 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron: 4.1, 20.1%

FYI...

Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 91'-93': 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % w/out Jordan 94'-95': 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 96'-98': 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced)
.

[CavaliersFTW]

Kobe's led 5 title teams in assists.

How many has Bran led?
Don't do em like that!

https://bossip.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/blog_kobe_angry.jpeg

[FKAri]

Lebron's assists are achieved by lowering the assists of teammates - this is statistical fact:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'): 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with... Lebron (2015):... 5.2, 25.0%

Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN: 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron: 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron: 4.1, 20.1%

FYI...

Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 91'-93': 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % w/out Jordan 94'-95': 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 96'-98': 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced)
.

When you're sitting there on your computer color coding ISH posts do you ever stop and think to yourself, wtf am I doing with my life?

[!@#$%Vectors!@#]

When you're sitting there on your computer color coding ISH posts do you ever stop and think to yourself, wtf am I doing with my life?

3ball taking
:banana:
:banana:
:banana:
:banana:
:banana:
:banana: :banana: :banana::banana::banana:

[3ball]

When you're sitting there on your computer color coding ISH posts do you ever stop and think to yourself, wtf am I doing with my life?
Don't be surprised and flustered..

There's a reason the stats show Lebron reducing the assists of teammates and the playmaking capacity of the team: starting fives normally have only 1 ball-dominant, low-assisted player that teammates rarely throw assists to - the point guard.. But Lebron's point guard style from the forward position adds a 2nd low-assisted player that teammates can't throw assists to - he turns a normally high assisted forward position into a low assisted one, which lowers the assist capacity of the team relative to other teams whose forwards are highly-assisted.

Not only did Lebron lower the APG of teammates, but he increased all of their assisted rates, which proves he turned them from playmakers to play-finishers.. Lebron's effect of turning teammates from playmakers to play-finishers prevents the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that the the Mavs, Spurs, Warriors, and 90's Bulls used (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s), where all five guys SHARE the playmaking duties more equally.. But in Lebron's case, since his monopolization of the playmaking prevents the best brand of basketball, various equal or less-talented teams have pulled upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

Also, the fact that Lebron usually leads a top 5 offense is not noteworthy.. Nash, Kevin Johnson, Karl Malone and many other players have led top 5 offenses as well, with similarly sparkling stats to support it.. It means nothing.. Otoh, Lebron's stats lack integrity because he accumulates them at the expense of teammates, as shown above.. His stat accumulation is also helped by employing a stat-friendly, easily-solvable, playground style, which is far less impressive than the superior, nuanced skill MJ needed to achieve stats within an equal-opportunity offense that can actually win.. MJ could've been a ball-dominant, low-assisted player that achieve stats at the expense of teammates too - but then he wouldn't be 6/6.
.

[3ball]

http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&PORound=4

Additionally, Lebron's assists are helped by his massive time of possession (the amount of time he possesses the ball each game) - it was a whopping 12.0 minutes per game in the 2015 Finals - that's 50% higher than the regular season leader, John Wall's 8.2 minutes.

Teams don't win rings with one player having 12 minutes of possession time.. Accordingly, the Cavs' objective in the Finals was for Lebron to stat-pad more than win..

Such a massive time of possession invalidates his stats, as do the incessant, playground-style clearouts - despite these optimal conditions, Lebron still only shot 39% - he simply has no shooting touch or half court repertoire.. And he needs to pound the ball forever to get his stats, which minimizes teammates, as described in the previous post.
.

[SexSymbol]

LeBron's a very good passer, but elite is whole another level.
I think guys like Magic, Paul, Rondo are elite passers, and LeBron just doesn't fit in that category.
He's a good, willing passer that sometimes make dumb decisions on passes, but most of the time his passes help the team.

[Blue&Orange]

He also averages 27.5 ppg. If he was a full time PG, he'd obviously average more assists.
lol Tell me a PG on his team that hold the ball more time than him. Hell tell someone other than Harden that holds the ball more time than him.

If he was a full time PG, this idiot. :facepalm

[Blue&Orange]

Lebron's assists are achieved by lowering the assists of teammates - this is statistical fact:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'): 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with... Lebron (2015):... 5.2, 25.0%

Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN: 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron: 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron: 4.1, 20.1%

FYI...

Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 91'-93': 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % w/out Jordan 94'-95': 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 96'-98': 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced)
.
well look at this, eye test and stats come together. Rare thing with Lebron.

[Blue&Orange]

http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&PORound=4

Additionally, Lebron's assists are helped by his massive time of possession (the amount of time he possesses the ball each game) - it was a whopping 12.0 minutes per game in the 2015 Finals - that's 50% higher than the regular season leader, John Wall's 8.2 minutes.

Teams don't win rings with one player having 12 minutes of possession time.. Accordingly, the Cavs' objective in the Finals was for Lebron to stat-pad more than win..

Such a massive time of possession invalidates his stats, as do the incessant, playground-style clearouts - despite these optimal conditions, Lebron still only shot 39% - he simply has no shooting touch or half court repertoire.. And he needs to pound the ball forever to get his stats, which minimizes teammates, as described in the previous post.
.
Again like i previously mentioned many times, why did the cavs kept doubling and tripple teaming Curry when it wasn't working or even when the series was over? Get the FMVP to LEbron.

Why did cavs coach played his best defensive player only 9 minutes after he had a monster game? Get the FMVP to Lebron.

This is what is hilarious and a real landmark on the type o loser Lebron is, he shitted on his team chances of winning gunning for the FMVP and lost to Iguodala

And some people want to put this statpadder loser on the TOP10.

[Blue&Orange]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLXFwQPDsmE

Danny Green did, if it was Lebron 10 pages on it on ISH.

[diamenz]

nothing elite about bulldozing in and kicking to an open three point shooter.

[ShawkFactory]

Elite as in an all time level? No, probably not. Magic, Stockton, Bird, etc. are on another level.

Elite for the league currently/in the last 10 years? Probably. His court vision and passing skills have always been among the best in the game. Not quite Rondo or CP3, but certainly the best among non PGs.

[tmacattack33]

I was in an intellectual discussion with a poster named tmacattack something like that in a deleted thread entitled "Lebron is clutch" and he brought up that Lebron was an elite passer. I wish to counter that but the thread got deleted.

Lebron James has a career average of 3.3 tov and 6.9 apg is considered by some of his stans an elite passer. Good passer yes, but elite... :facepalm

Well if they mean passing up an open shot to protect his fg%... yep he's elite at that.

1. Most turnovers are not even made during passes, so assist to turnover is not too relevant here. And 3.3 tov for someone who scores 25 ppg and gets 6.9 apg is not a lot anyway.

2. Lebron's passes make it seem like he can see the future, in the same way of Chris Paul and the best in the business. It's something you can visually see.

It's hard as fukk to argue with someone about this, because some people can't see what good vision is...and they are more impressed with fancy behind the back passes that have more to do with ball handling skills than vision.

So I don't know what to tell you if you can't watch the tape and see a player has elite vision, but I guess I can tell you this:

A) Most NBA Coaches and analysts see it with Lebron.

B) You can also look at the fact that Lebron was the best distributor on the dream team, with Chris Paul and Deron Williams standing right there.

C) You can also look at what happened when he was full-time PG in Cleveland (D West/Mo Williams/Gibson were all injured). It was about a 10 game span and he averaged 11 + assists per game and still maintained his high scoring.

D) You can also use good judgement and sense in realizing that if Lebron didn't score 28 ppg and instead actively tried to take on a role as a team's distributor (instead of a scorer), he could definitely get 10 assists per game. His ppg would drop as his apg climbed up. Similar to Penny Hardaway. Or Larry Bird.

[WorldWarriors]

LeBron is an elite everything except 3 point shooter.

[SexSymbol]

LeBron is an elite everything except 3 point shooter.
He's a piss poor defender the last two years.
an average mid range shooter at best
an average ft shooter at best

[pauk]

ELITE ASSIST MAN?

By Point-Guard standards:

Technically going by the numbers/averages (~7 apg) he isnt elite (well, not ~10 apg elite), but good, maybe even very good.... but its still subjective because hypothetically he is/was/could have been elite because he didnt start PG but could have and because of the moments he did start PG his assist numbers/averages increased dramatically to 10+ apg while still maintaining 27-30 ppg (which tells you he could have averaged more assists either by passing more/shooting less or by starting PG, hence he had the elite ability but not the elite production due to positions/role/decision making), the biggest example of this came one time when Gibson & Mo were injured back in 2009-10 season... he started/played PG 13 games in a row and here take a look, ill let the numbers do the talking:

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/Untitled-2-2.png

I really do believe Lebron could have been "elite" in this category, he has proved more than enough that he COULD.

By non-PG (compared to any SG-SF-PF-C) standards:

Here he is in every sense of the word elite assist man, no matter how you twist and turn it, not just elite... but the best non-PG assist man ever, the only guy who was close was Larry Bird, but Lebron overtook even him here (assist average + totals / records / milestones).

Infact right now Lebron is #25 on the all-time assist list:

1. John Stockton....15806
2. Jason Kidd...........12091
3. Steve Nash..........10335
4. Mark Jackson.......10334
5. Magic Johnson......10141
6. Oscar Robertson.....9887
7. Isiah Thomas.........9061
8. Gary Payton..........8966
9. Andre Miller...........8474
10. Rod Strickland......7987
11. Maurice Cheeks....7392
12. Lenny Wilkens......7211
13. Terry Porter.........7160
14. Chris Paul............7128
15. Tim Hardaway......7095
16. Bob Cousy...........6955
17. Guy Rodgers........6917
18. Muggsy Bogues....6726
19. Kevin Johnson......6711
20. Derek Harper........6577
21. Tiny Archibald......6476
22. Stephon Marbury..6471
23. John Lucas..........6454
24. Reggie Theus.......6453
25. LeBron James.......6439

Keep in mind:
1. ALL those players above him on this list were Point-Guards.......
2. Only by the end of this season he will surpass 7 more Players above him which will make him #17 on the all-time assist list.
3. He is the first & only non-PG in NBA history to be there.
4. He is the only player on this list with also that high PPG.
5. By the looks of it he is on pace to even end up top 10 by the time he retires....

You be the judge.........


ELITE PASSER? (raw passing ability-skills / vision)

This is something that is much harder to more accurately measure/evaluate since it is 100% a visual thing (doesnt show up on the stat sheet, not even if he averages 30 assists, how do you know at what type of difficulty those passes were made?), this completely requires you to have watched that player play significant amount of times, including other candidates his passing skills will be compared to....

THAT or it requires you to at least watch many highlight videos of the player in that context.... for Lebron i think this passing highlight is a good start:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-zhe-5ORA

If you take a look at such footage as above (lots of it on youtube) and especially watched most of his games as a true basketball fan and compare to anybody in NBA history you will quickly realise he is at the very least elite in this category....

Personally i have seen significant amount of 80s, 90s, 00s+ games / players.... i cant go back further than that.

By Point-Guard standards:

Only Point-Guard ive seen who clearly possessed better vision & passing skills than Lebron was Magic Johnson..... the others were not that clear, i have devoured as much footage as possible from guys like Stockton, Nash, Kidd etc.... but i have seen that much & maybe even more from Lebron... I think his passing skills / vision is easily comparable to any Point-Guard i have ever seen.... from what i have seen i think his passing skills are THAT good....

By non-PG standards:

Only non-PG ive seen whos passing skills/vision was on par was Larry Bird..... and those two are with a MASSIVE gap above anybody else....

If you consider Larry Bird an elite passer.... then so was Lebron...
If you consider Larry Bird an elite assist man.... then so was Lebron....

For me, his passing skills / vision is easily one of the 10 best ive ever seen, which is:

#1 Magic Johnson

(the rest in no order)
Jason Kidd
Pete Maravich
Lebron James
Larry Bird
John Stockton
Steve Nash
Isiah Thomas
Jason Williams
Penny Hardaway/Manu Ginobili

Lots you can try disregard Lebron with.... but passing i think is not it, he has proved himself in that regard since high school and that feat was hyped to hell dubbing him even as "The next Magic Johnson".... even as a 17 year old pre-draft scout reports were saying: "There is only maybe 4 players in the NBA right now who can pass the ball like Lebron can" (which in 2002-2003 mind you consisted of Kidd, Nash...)

[Lebronxrings]

score like jordan, pass like magic.

[Cold soul]

Elite as in an all time level? No, probably not. Magic, Stockton, Bird, etc. are on another level.

Elite for the league currently/in the last 10 years? Probably. His court vision and passing skills have always been among the best in the game. Not quite Rondo or CP3, but certainly the best among non PGs.

Well said I agree. Lebron is great passer just isn't at all time great level.

[Pointguard]

He's in the conversation. I tend not to put him there but a lot of that has to do with him being obligated to do other things.

Pro's
Has elite level court vision
One of a few that can make cross court passes because of his power.
Puts extra zest on passes and can thread the needle
Is among the most accurate passers in today's game
Is one of a few that can create for others now - but it just isn't popular now
See's the whole offense.

Cons
Never has a lot of assist despite having great scorers the last five years
Has a style that stifles movement
Isn't a pin point passer like Magic,Nash, Stockton and Kidd
Isn't elite in creating for others nor was it ever a part-time job to do so
Gets more attention than other great passers but they all had better powers to misdirect the defender
Isn't consistent


Can't be top tier or elite with those Con's but he could have been there if his responsibilities were the same when he played PG in his first year.

[Fire Colangelo]

I don't know about "elite" but he's definitely good. Probably the best non-PG passer we've seen in the last decade or 2.

I'm just gonna say this about LeBron:

He always makes the right passes, he doesn't over do it IMO or tries to statpad it.
I've rarely see a LeBron play where I was like "Hmmm, that was unnecessary" or "Oh he missed a cut".

^ obviously that shit happens but it's rare with LeBron. You can argue court vision or what not, but his passes are usually pretty on point accuracy wise.

[feyki]

He is great playmaker as Pippen,Jordan,Payton,Bird,Frazier . But He isn't in the same level as "Nash,Oscar,Magic,Stockton"s on playmaking .

[FKAri]

Don't be surprised and flustered..
I'm not flustered but you might be since my short post questioning your life's goals resulted in a multi paragraph and multi edited DOUBLE post from you. They didn't look like your copy pasted ones either.

I am surprised tho since I made no mention of MJ and you felt the need to bring him into it.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Elite relative to the all-time great point guards, no, elite for his position, definitely yes.

[bizil]

Elite relative to the all-time great point guards, no, elite for his position, definitely yes.

I agree with that! Lebron is a better passer than most EXCEPT the all time great passing PG's. The guys like Magic, Stockton, Big O, Isiah, Kidd, and Nash. We can't ignore those prolific assist numbers those guys were getting. But for forwards, I think Bird and Bron are the best of all time!

[PsychoBe]

great court vision and anticipation but lacks elite ball-handling skills that the elite passers had (which is why he's so turnover prone).

[KevinNYC]

I agree with that! Lebron is a better passer than most EXCEPT the all time great passing PG's. The guys like Magic, Stockton, Big O, Isiah, Kidd, and Nash. We can't ignore those prolific assist numbers those guys were getting. But for forwards, I think Bird and Bron are the best of all time!Have we established his turnovers are related to his passes? Because I would bet more of his turnovers come on his drives.

Seems like there's two separate things being discussed.

[stalkerforlife]

Kobe led 5 title teams in assists.

How many has Bran led?

[G-train]

Yes he is an elite passer. I don't know who you've been watching for 10 years if you disagree.
He's an all time great, and passing is one of his best skills.

[sd3035]

most of his assists are on contested jumpers

He doesn't really thread the needle

[feyki]

Kobe led 5 title teams in assists.

How many has Bran led?

So , Jordan > Magic on playmaking . Nice logic troll .

[G-train]

most of his assists are on contested jumpers

He doesn't really thread the needle

Are we talking last game or last 10 years?

[FKAri]

Kobe led 5 title teams in assists.

How many has Bran led?

More than Michael Jordan. Who, btw, is also a better passer than Kobe.

[stalkerforlife]

So , Jordan > Magic on playmaking . Nice logic troll .

Jordan is better at everything.

If Jordan wanted to play the Magic role, he would. But he was better than that.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Jordan is better at everything.

If Jordan wanted to play the Magic role, he would. But he was better than that.

:coleman:

[AintNoSunshine]

Anyone who actually knows anything about basketball will tell you he's an elite passer. Only on ISH you would find someone who says he isn't? Because they either have an unhealthy hate for the guy or they're stupid, or both.